Fleet of Worlds

Nov 10 14:09:13 * lensman_free (~lensman@24.124.118.241) has joined #knownspace

Nov 10 14:11:17 * lensman_free has changed the topic to: FLEET OF WORLDS chat, for those who have read the book.

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Nov 10 14:30:25 <lensman_free> Hi George!

Nov 10 14:30:40 * lensman_free is now known as Lensman

Nov 10 14:31:41 <George_C> Hi!

Nov 10 14:31:55 <George_C> Couldn't stand it, had to log in early.

Nov 10 14:32:43 <Lensman> Yah. Actually I need to go and fix my lunch now, so I don't have to do it later.

Nov 10 14:32:53 * Lensman is now known as Lensman_free

Nov 10 14:33:25 <George_C> Good idea. Can't chat until 3:00 anyway.

Nov 10 14:41:39 * Lensman_free is now known as Lensman

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Nov 10 14:48:37 <Nesssus> Hello Sean

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Nov 10 14:49:30 <George_C> Hi, Nesssus.

Nov 10 14:49:36 <Nesssus> Hi George

Nov 10 14:50:46 <Lensman> Welcome Nesssus!

Nov 10 14:50:51 <Nesssus> Hi Lensman

Nov 10 14:51:18 <Nesssus> Sadly I won't be participating in the chat tonight

Nov 10 14:51:27 <Nesssus> just come on here to set the log up.

Nov 10 14:51:48 <Nesssus> Started reading FOW today, but so far only got to page 93!

Nov 10 14:52:00 <Lensman> Well, there's nothing to prevent someone *else* from calling for a 2nd FOW chat at a later date.

Nov 10 14:52:06 <Nesssus> so don't want to spoil it.

Nov 10 14:52:19 <George_C> Ah. I just finished it about 90 minutes ago.

Nov 10 14:52:28 <Nesssus> lol -

Nov 10 14:52:54 <Lensman> Oh, so we shouldn't tell you the Kzinti turn out to be Tnuctipun, and the core explosion turns out to be a hoax...

Nov 10 14:53:05 <Lensman> Oops, wrong story! :D

Nov 10 14:53:16 <Nesssus> I'm going back to the book now, if I hurry I can maybe catch the tail end of the chat if it goes on into the early hours.....

Nov 10 14:53:25 * Nesssus is now known as Ness_logging

Nov 10 14:53:51 <Ness_logging> goodnight

Nov 10 14:54:05 <Lensman> G'nite Nesssus

Nov 10 14:57:00 <George_C> In addition to the FOW chats today, in a couple of weeks it would probably be okay to start a FOW thread on the list.

Nov 10 14:57:39 <Lensman> I look forward to that.

Nov 10 15:00:48 <George_C> Do I understand that Larry and Ed both will try to be here?

Nov 10 15:01:41 <Lensman> Ed has promised to be here. Haven't heard a word about Larry. I did ask Ed to pass the message along to him.

Nov 10 15:02:20 <George_C> Okay. Thought someone had said both.

Nov 10 15:03:05 <Lensman> Maybe someone who knows more than I do said Larry will be here. I can hope so!

Nov 10 15:04:02 <George_C> Yeah, that would be sweet. If either of them could use some ego-boost, I think they'd get it here!

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Nov 10 15:04:37 <George_C> For me, I'm very impressed with FOW.

Nov 10 15:04:38 <Lensman> By my count, FOW directly impacts on the events in "At the Core", "Flatlander", "The Borderland of Sol", "There Is a Tide"

Nov 10 15:04:56 <Lensman> And indirectly relates to

Nov 10 15:04:57 <George_C> Hey! Just talking about you, Larry. Welcome!

Nov 10 15:05:08 <Lensman> Welcome Larry!

Nov 10 15:05:49 <Larry> Thank you all, and hello.

Nov 10 15:05:54 <Lensman> ...indirectly relates to "A Relic of the Empire", "The Color of Sunfire" and /Ringworld Engineers/.

Nov 10 15:05:56 <George_C> We were just wondering if we'd get both FOW authors here. Ed should be here shortly, we hope.

Nov 10 15:06:28 <Larry> I expect Ed will appear.

Nov 10 15:06:39 <George_C> Agreed, Lensman. FOW neatly touches on several aspects and events in KS. Very nicely done!

Nov 10 15:06:56 <Lensman> Larry, has "The Color of Sunfire" officially been kicked out of the KS canon, as "One Face" and "Bordered in Black" were?

Nov 10 15:08:19 <Larry> "The Color of Sunfire" may or may not fit canon--I forget details--but it isn't needed. The themes got used elsewhere.

Nov 10 15:08:47 <George_C> The FOW look at Citizen culture is fascinating and more than a little creepy. We may never see Puppeteers the same way again. The thing about aliens is . . .

Nov 10 15:08:56 <Larry> In fact, the story may be older than "Ringworld", and the sunflowers likewise.

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Nov 10 15:10:06 <EML> Hi, all.

Nov 10 15:10:10 <George_C> Welcome, Ed!

Nov 10 15:10:58 <George_C> Now I can say it: Thanks, both of you, for FOW! Well done, gentlemen. Damn well done!

Nov 10 15:11:18 <EML> You're very kind. Glad you enjoyed it.

Nov 10 15:11:27 <Lensman> We were discussing "Color" here a month or two ago. As Ed pointed out, there doesn't seem to be any reason for the Fleet not to have been formed *before* it took flight. Why would the Puppeteers leave their farming worlds widely separated from Hearth? Not impossible, but it does call into question why Schultz-Mann saw only the single world, not the Klemperer Rosette which Louis et al saw.

Nov 10 15:11:44 <Lensman> Hello, Ed!

Nov 10 15:12:06 <EML> For some reason, Dave, I thought you weren't going ot make it today.

Nov 10 15:12:24 <Lensman> Which "Dave"?

Nov 10 15:12:59 <EML> Umm, Isn't Lensman = Dave? (If not ... oops.)

Nov 10 15:13:32 <Lensman> Wild Humans couldn't keep me from this chat! :D Yah I'm "Dave" but there are too many Daves on the list, that's why I go by Lensman.

Nov 10 15:14:12 <EML> Re Schultz-Mann seeing one world, that was only in Sunfire, right? AFAIK, that's noncanonical.

Nov 10 15:15:28 <George_C> Okay, so what surprised everyone most in FOW?

Nov 10 15:15:32 <Lensman> One thing *not* addressed in FOW is how the Puppeteers tracked the /Puppet Master/, the pirates' ship in "A Relic of the Empire". Apparently Puppeteers can NOT send a hyperwave signal from inside a gravity well. It occurs to me they *could* have planted a hyperwave transmitter on the ship.

Nov 10 15:15:34 <Larry> Yeah, right. That's why Sunfire is noncanonical.

Nov 10 15:16:08 <Lensman> Ed: Yes, I had asked Larry if Sunfire had officially been ruled non-canonical.

Nov 10 15:16:53 <Lensman> What surprised me the most? Well, aside from the fact that the Puppeteers had a hidden colony of Humans, it would be the lack of defenses for Hearth.

Nov 10 15:17:03 <EML> There's a way to track ships in hyperspace ... not revealed until JUGGLER.

Nov 10 15:18:05 <Lensman> Ed just *loves* to tease us with these "I can't talk about that" tidbits!

Nov 10 15:18:32 <George_C> Yeah, I thought that odd. A handful of Colonists on an old human-built ship was able to hold the Concordance to ransom. How? Because their action was inconceivable to their masters.

Nov 10 15:18:42 <EML> Conventional defenses requires conventional warriors ... of which the Concordance has a rather short supply.

Nov 10 15:18:49 <Larry> It strikes me that the Fleet may have defenses not yet revealed to any of our characters. Then again, why weren't they used in "Fleet"?

Nov 10 15:18:58 * Dan (~vila@98.17.130.168) has joined #knownspace

Nov 10 15:19:13 <Dan> Hiya, sorry I'm late...

Nov 10 15:19:13 <George_C> Hi, Dan!

Nov 10 15:19:21 <EML> Hi Dan

Nov 10 15:19:37 <EML> If there were defenses, Nike would have known.

Nov 10 15:19:55 <Dan> Got company and the time slipped away from me.

Nov 10 15:20:20 <George_C> The Concordance believed their fleet was usless, because they thought the rebels had antimatter.

Nov 10 15:20:40 <George_C> They were wrong, of course.

Nov 10 15:20:42 <Lensman> I think it also calls into question "Captain Kidd" 's tale in "A Relic of the Empire". If the Puppeteers already had been "invaded" by one pirate, wouldn't they have put up some planetary defenses? In fact, considering their apparent paranoia, why don't they have the best defenses in Known Space for their world? It did occur to me they might be worried about someone taking control of those defenses and using them to threaten Hearth.

Nov 10 15:21:32 <George_C> Here's a thought: the Citizens left a fake decoy world where theirs used to be. Too much . . ?

Nov 10 15:22:15 <Lensman> A defensive "fleet" would have to be manned by "mad" Puppeteers. Automated defense fortresses was the sort of thing I was thinking. Or at least a few ships filled with the sort of robots which overran the /Long Pass/!

Nov 10 15:22:29 <EML> Maybe I don't recall Relic of Empire completely ... but did the pirates ever get around to blackmailing the Puppeteers, or did they get destroyed first?

Nov 10 15:23:27 <EML> Automated defense fortresses? Too close to AI -- which scare the $^%#!! out of Puppeteers. Why build your successors?

Nov 10 15:24:07 <Larry> Jerry Pournelle has complained to me that known space is not well defended. Maybe the Citizens didn't have defenses to copy.

Nov 10 15:24:08 <Lensman> In "Relic" the pirates were too stupid/ignorant to try to blackmail the Puppeteers. They just robbed three Puppeteer ships which were coming into Hearth laden with cash.

Nov 10 15:24:40 <Lensman> Ed: Good point re A.I.

Nov 10 15:26:16 <Lensman> Ed, that raises a question: Was there a Puppeteer scout present on the ship which attacked the /Long Pass/? Given lack of AI, it seems there would *have* to be someone on-site directing operations.

Nov 10 15:27:39 <EML> There's nothing in FLEET to make explicit whether someone was aboard the GP4 ship (whose name escapes me) ... but I would argue there must have been.

Nov 10 15:27:54 <Dan> Can hyperwave be used for sending remote control signals to machinery?

Nov 10 15:28:20 <Lensman> Dan: Hyperwave relays are used extensively in FOW.

Nov 10 15:29:09 <Larry> There must have been a scout, and he must have been mad.

Nov 10 15:29:10 <George_C> Ship was the Preserver. I took it that the crew had no guidance, they just reacted out of fear, and perhaps with a kind of First Contact guideline from HQ.

Nov 10 15:29:14 <Dan> Not exactly what I was getting at, Lens.

Nov 10 15:29:27 <EML> Larry -- re Jerry's point ... did he not think the MKW wars involved defenses?

Nov 10 15:29:31 <Dan> But thanks.

Nov 10 15:30:06 <Lensman> This touches on "The Soft Weapon". I had thought Nessus' ability to send a distress signal from the surface of Cueball meant Puppeteers have the tech to send a hyperwave signal from inside a gravity well, but per FOW it looks like he was relaying thru a drone outside the gravity well, probably via radio.

Nov 10 15:30:08 <Larry> Sorry. Jerry's remark was for EARLY known space. It's singleships he didn't believe in.

Nov 10 15:30:26 <EML> George -- yes, a panicked crew aboard Preserver.

Nov 10 15:30:43 <George_C> Then again, with an agent on board, the reaction might well have been the same.

Nov 10 15:31:13 <George_C> Citizens Doctrine: If it's unknown neutralize it first, ask questions later?

Nov 10 15:31:36 <EML> About clarifying events during The Soft Weapon (sorry to be a broken record) ... wait until JUGGLER.

Nov 10 15:32:02 <George_C> Is this to be a trilogy?

Nov 10 15:33:05 <EML> we haven't set out to create a trilogy -- or even a dilogy. that's not say we might not ever do another.

Nov 10 15:33:57 <George_C> Okay. For a moment I thought you'd say, "That answer will cost you one billion stars!"

Nov 10 15:34:04 <Lensman> Ed: So currently you and Larry have no plans for any KS stories past "Juggler", which I understand you've completed?

Nov 10 15:34:19 <Larry> Talking about a collaboration classes as recreation. It isn't work until you sit down to write.

Nov 10 15:34:29 <George_C> The inner look at the Concordance was interesting and creepy. One begins to understand Speaker's fear. The Puppete-- excuse me, Citizens are fearfully advanced, and if they fear you, will do whatever it takes to ease their fear.

Nov 10 15:35:22 <EML> As for JUGGLER, yes, it's completed. It's tentatively due out in August 2008.

Nov 10 15:35:29 <George_C> :-D

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Nov 10 15:36:16 <George_C> Maybe if we generate enough ideas here and on the list, since the next book is done, they'll just have to keep writing . . !

Nov 10 15:36:51 <EML> THere are worse fates ...

Nov 10 15:37:00 <Larry> My wife asks if I always saw Puppeteers as dangerous and evil. Dangerous, yes; evil, no. They're cowards because I needed them to need Beowulf Shaeffer in "Neutron Star".

Nov 10 15:37:24 <Lensman> This is something, perhaps the one thing that bothers me about FOW: That the Citizens seriously contemplated, at a high level of government, taking direct action to devastate inhabited worlds. In /Ringworld/ we see they deal with the Kzinti threat *very* indirectly, by leading the Outsiders to intervene in the first Man-Kzin War. Yet in FOW they contemplate direct destructive action? They must have been *very* sure such couldn't be traced back to t

Nov 10 15:37:49 <Dan> I like the way that Larry can find something new to say about something that he previously thought was finished. New thoughts, new stories = fun for we readers!

Nov 10 15:38:10 <George_C> More gear for the Playground! Yah!

Nov 10 15:38:33 <Lensman> What Dan said, yah!

Nov 10 15:38:34 <EML> To me, they aren't evil. Puppeteers show willingness to try to save Earth despite their fear.

Nov 10 15:38:55 <Larry> Lensman, the Fleet was in flight, leaving known space. It gave them some freedom to make mistakes. (still stupid, though.)

Nov 10 15:39:01 <Dan> Sorry about the slow typing, still have one arm in a sling. :)

Nov 10 15:39:13 <Lensman> Thanks, Larry.

Nov 10 15:39:32 <EML> OTOH, the Citizens were *very* coldblooded about wiping out advanced civilization on Ringworld.

Nov 10 15:39:58 <George_C> Had the Concordance been evil, there would be no conflict. Earth and the Gw'oth wolrd would have been smashed.

Nov 10 15:40:25 <George_C> Knocked down the technology, yes, but not outright extermination.

Nov 10 15:41:11 <EML> given planetbuster capability , the only safety is to stay hidden.

Nov 10 15:41:31 <George_C> Earth was too advanced to kill easily. Gw'oth-world isn't. Kzinti were already loose. Can we kill them all? No.

Nov 10 15:41:48 <George_C> Notice that they were prepared to destroy the Gw'oth, but did not.

Nov 10 15:41:54 <Lensman> Ed: IIRC the Puppeteers had contemplated transferring their population to the Ringworld. From that perspective, they *needed* to smash the high-level civilization which existed there. Too much competition. Not to mention which, the Ringworld is a pretty fearsome thing.

Nov 10 15:42:13 <Dan> I think I'm with Ed here, toppling a civilization just to attempt to open up a new market? While they were leaving KS anyway? That's cold!

Nov 10 15:42:25 <George_C> They were not just protecting the Fleet, but the very fact of it's existence.

Nov 10 15:43:13 <EML> Larry -- do you recall how much detail Hindmost revealed about why the superconductor plague was released on Ringworld?

Nov 10 15:43:26 <George_C> The Concordance question may have been (or will be!): What's safer, the Fleet or the Ring?

Nov 10 15:44:18 <Lensman> Contrast what "Captain Kidd" claimed the Puppeteers did in "A Relic of the Empire". He claimed the Puppeteers just alerted Human authorities after the Pirates had discovered their world and plundered their ships. Should we assume everythink Kidd said was a lie? Wouldn't Puppeteers be more apt to hire mercenaries/bounty hunters to kill off the pirates before they could talk?

Nov 10 15:44:18 <Larry> Ed: No, I don't recall that. I'd have to reread some books.

Nov 10 15:45:17 <Larry> "Kidd" may have done some guessing.

Nov 10 15:45:50 <EML> General Products personnel offworld could have alerted human authorities to the piracy.

Nov 10 15:47:08 <Lensman> From RE chapter 16: "All right, Louis. It wasn't planned this way, and it happened before my time. We were searching for a way to expand our territory with minimal risk. The Outsiders sold us the location of the Ringworld." The Outsiders were cold, fragile beings who roamed throughout the galaxy in slower-than-light craft. They traded in knowledge. They might well have known of the Ringworld, and sold the information to puppeteers, but ... "Wait a minu

Nov 10 15:47:26 <George_C> I was relieved to note Nike and Nessus' reluctance to kill. BTW, may we assume the Hindmost in Ringworld was Nike?

Nov 10 15:48:27 <EML> I won't tell my wife whether Nike = Hindmost ...

Nov 10 15:48:51 <Larry> Ed, we are agreed, no? Nike became the Hindmost as seen in the Ringworld books.

Nov 10 15:49:07 <Lensman> Hmmm, my quote was cut off: But we analyzed Ringworld superconductors through laser spectroscopy. We made a bacterium that could feed on it. Probes seeded the superconductor plague across the Ringworld. You guessed as much?" "That much, yeah." "We were to follow with trading ships. Our traders would come opportunely to the rescue. They would learn all we needed to know, and gain allies too."

Nov 10 15:49:37 <EML> Larry: we're certainly free to have it turn out that way. I don't recall we ever decided it must be so.

Nov 10 15:49:45 <Lensman> LOL! I assumed Nike = RE's Hindmost, but Ed was being coy about it!

Nov 10 15:50:43 <EML> Now as to whether Hindmost always tells the truth, or the whole truth, or spins the truth ...

Nov 10 15:51:10 <George_C> The Ringworld, if anywhere near the path of the Fleet, is a horrific danger. Can it be destroyed without reprisal? No? How about neutralized?

Nov 10 15:51:26 <Dan> Spins it to his best advantage, or lies. Is there any doubt of that?

Nov 10 15:51:35 <George_C> No Citizen tells anyone the whole truth, nor is expected to, apparently.

Nov 10 15:51:43 <Larry> A reader must usually assume that the authors, at least, always tell the truth. (Barring Agatha Christie.)

Nov 10 15:52:13 <George_C> Even Nessus and Nike adapted their relationship, then put it on hold, to avoid complete honesty.

Nov 10 15:52:39 <EML> Recall in Ringworld how Nessus reveals secrets like the starseed lure ... very calculating.

Nov 10 15:52:54 <George_C> Indded.

Nov 10 15:53:05 <George_C> Indeed, too!

Nov 10 15:54:21 <EML> Authors should tell the truth when speaking in omnisicent POV. When speaking in character POV, the character's honesty (or lack thereof) plays a role.

Nov 10 15:54:41 <George_C> Just so.

Nov 10 15:54:48 <Lensman> But did he *mean* to tell Louis & Speaker about the lure, to see if they could reach the logical conclusion? Or did he let that slip? My re-reading of Rw following FOW was that Nessus was *very* loose-lipped when on the Ring. I put it down to stress. But it *could* have been some convoluted plot, I suppose.

Nov 10 15:55:20 <George_C> With Citizens, it always is, it seems.

Nov 10 15:55:40 <George_C> Some may become more open than others. Nessus has an affinity for humans . . .

Nov 10 15:55:59 <Lensman> Ed: Yes, but someone on the list actually claimed that Larry very rarely writes in actual third-person-omniscient, that most of it's internal dialog. Personally I think that's quite an overstatement.

Nov 10 15:56:50 <George_C> One wonders about the fate of New Terra . . . I know, I know, "Juggler"!

Nov 10 15:58:07 <Lensman> I note that in FOW it's stated the Companions don't survive the birth of a newborn Puppeteer. But it stops short of giving any gory details. Will there be more details about that forthcoming?

Nov 10 15:58:55 <EML> Puppeteer sex? Not a big part of Juggler.

Nov 10 15:59:24 <Larry> I've known details of Citizen sex for a long time.

Nov 10 15:59:54 <Larry> I've kept their secrets, if not well.

Nov 10 16:00:12 <Lensman> Ed: Well that touched on what you said, I think in last month's chat, that you and Larry worked out more details about the Puppeteers than were put into FOW. Is it possible for us to get a peek at your notes?

Nov 10 16:00:26 <George_C> I wonder where they keep the farms that breed Companions? On one of the farm worlds, or is that not safe enough? I suspect they'd rather keep that place out of sight, and out of mind.

Nov 10 16:00:58 <George_C> fascinating evolution they must have had . . !

Nov 10 16:01:36 <EML> I'm inclined to keep our working material for possible future use.

Nov 10 16:01:49 <Larry> Wherever Companions are bred, it would be insane to put them where they might be separated from the Citizens. Count on it. They're on Hearth.

Nov 10 16:01:54 <Lensman> George: Check out FOW p. 105.

Nov 10 16:03:15 <EML> Anyone mind if I ask a question (besides this one)?

Nov 10 16:03:26 <George_C> Those must be the most well-protected places on Hearth.

Nov 10 16:03:30 <Lensman> Please ask!

Nov 10 16:04:42 <EML> Various reviews have various lists of "read this first" before FLEET. I can understand perhaps reading Shaeffer stories first, but RINGWORLD first puzzles me.

Nov 10 16:05:07 <EML> Still, it's come up often enough, there may be something to it.

Nov 10 16:05:40 <Lensman> FOW has spoilers for Rw. The whole Fleet of Worlds thing and the visit to the surface of Hearth are rather spoilt if you've read FOW first.

Nov 10 16:05:43 <George_C> Well, we all read RW first, of course, and FOW is a sort of prequel . . .

Nov 10 16:06:04 <Dan> Some of those reviewers might not have read all of the KS stories, the way we have.

Nov 10 16:07:07 <George_C> Now, should one read all the RW books before FOW? I think not, but, yeah, I could see reading RW first.

Nov 10 16:07:28 <Lensman> Ed: But I think I know where you're coming from. I've looked at online reviews of various KS books online, and have been surprised that critics have taken the books to task for requiring the readers be familiar with previous works in the series. This is hardly unique for SF series!

Nov 10 16:08:22 <Lensman> I recommended in my review that readers read the /Neutron Star/ collection plus "The Borderland of Sol". Rw isn't necessary, agreed.

Nov 10 16:08:23 <EML> We may have skipped up on occasion, but we sure tried to make the book standalone.

Nov 10 16:09:16 <Lensman> I read Rw as my first Niven. It stands *quite* well on its own, altho on my website I do recommend first-time readers read the /Neutron Star/ collection first.

Nov 10 16:09:45 <Larry> Yes. "Fleet" was supposed to stand alone, as best we could make it do that.

Nov 10 16:10:45 <EML> Contrarian that I am, I think the KS stories can be read in almost any order ... and that no one order, neither publication order nor chronological order, is best.

Nov 10 16:10:54 <Lensman> Of course I can't really read FOW with "fresh" eyes, but it does seem to me a new reader can read FOW and not be confused.

Nov 10 16:11:15 <George_C> FOW certainly stands on it's own, but will also make one want to know more! I can see where FOW might be some new fans' first intro to KS.

Nov 10 16:11:33 <George_C> Like RW was for many of us.

Nov 10 16:12:29 <George_C> Lensman: Harem House on p.105 was for choosing and mating with Companions, but gave no clue as to what mating produced the Companions.

Nov 10 16:13:33 <Lensman> George: You were asking where the Companions were raised, if they were kept on the Farm Worlds. IIRC the passage about Harem House makes it clear they have their own enclaves where they live their entire lives.

Nov 10 16:14:13 <Larry> every story I write has been intended to stand alone for a new reader.

Nov 10 16:15:14 <George_C> I had thought the Companions were closely-related but seperate species. Perhaps the Citizens, like some terran animals and the Kzin, give birth to one male and one female/Companion . . .

Nov 10 16:15:38 <George_C> The male is raised as a Citizen, the female goes to a Harem House.

Nov 10 16:16:06 <EML> I choose not to say more about Citizen gender roles.

Nov 10 16:16:36 <George_C> Fair enough, Ed. But we, on the other hoof . . !

Nov 10 16:17:26 <EML> on the other HEAD ...

Nov 10 16:17:36 <EML> :-)

Nov 10 16:17:47 <George_C> The two males contribute their genetic material. Does it take two males and one female set of genes? Or does the female contribute anything? Thing about aliens is . . !

Nov 10 16:17:58 <George_C> :-)

Nov 10 16:18:39 <Lensman> Hindmost specifies in RE that the Companion contributes no genetic material. Unless he was lying, the Companions are indeed a separate (but closely-related) species.

Nov 10 16:19:21 <George_C> Ah. As I thought, then. We may learn more in the next book, or work it out on the list.

Nov 10 16:19:35 <Dan> Both.

Nov 10 16:19:52 <George_C> Enough of this smut talk! What would the authors like to discuss about FOW?

Nov 10 16:20:08 <George_C> BTW, I for one felt like cheering when the Colonists raided the breeding compound, and took everything.

Nov 10 16:20:35 <George_C> Scared the cat who was sleeping on me.

Nov 10 16:20:42 <Lensman> Yah, the end of FOW has some big-time "I'm proud to be a HUMAN!" moments. :)

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Nov 10 16:21:15 <EML> What do you all see as loose ends or insufficiently described detail that might be fodder for a future story?

Nov 10 16:21:54 <George_C> Nessus: "Perhaps minions could be put to GOOD use."

Nov 10 16:22:17 <jim_stiles> The love affair between Nike and Nessus?

Nov 10 16:22:56 <George_C> What happened with th Gw'oth in two hundred more years? They were apparentkly based on the Jotoki, but not.

Nov 10 16:23:05 <Lensman> I want to know more about Puppeteer breeding and family life! And I want to hear the Puppeteer side of "Captain Kidd" 's tale, unless "Kidd" made it up. And I want to know how the Puppeteers tracked the /Puppet Master/!

Nov 10 16:23:14 <George_C> Are we to believe they BECAME the Jotoki?

Nov 10 16:24:06 <Lensman> Thanks, George. Yes, are the Gw'oth related to the Jotaki? A long-lost colony, perhaps?

Nov 10 16:24:14 <EML> Gw'oth aren't meant to be Jotoki, despite some superficial resemblance. For one, Jotoki aren't marine creatures.

Nov 10 16:24:20 <George_C> Yeah, I'd like to know more about Citizen young and how they're raised.

Nov 10 16:24:56 <Lensman> "Aren't marine". Does that mean they're freshwater?

Nov 10 16:25:05 <EML> Hah!

Nov 10 16:25:29 <EML> Jotoki are air breathers. Gw'oth live under water.

Nov 10 16:25:49 <Larry> Gw'oth were evolved (by Ed) from first principles. They're not Jotoki. (which were also evolved from first principles, by Donald Kingsbury.)

Nov 10 16:25:58 <George_C> Exactly, Ed. Bit of a stretch to think the Gw'oth could become the Jotoki, but they're just too similar not to be related. TWO species based on five-part colony creatures?

Nov 10 16:26:22 <Lensman> Yah, okay. Altho tadpoles --> frogs...

Nov 10 16:27:17 <George_C> Okay, I give, the authors both say Gw'oth are not Jotoki, it's a done deal.

Nov 10 16:27:55 <EML> But I infer interest in Gw'oth, regardless of their (non)relatives. Fair?

Nov 10 16:28:06 <Lensman> IIRC "Fly-By-Night" says the Jotoki start out as independent critters living in the water. I guess like sea-snakes they're still air-breathers, tho.

Nov 10 16:28:28 <George_C> I did wonder if the Gw'oth, like the Jotoki, might become fearsome enough to warrant the Concordance cometary insurance policy.

Nov 10 16:28:58 <Lensman> Ed: Well you *did* leave a whopping big "TO BE CONTINUED" sign at the end of FOW regarding the Gw'oth, didn't you now??

Nov 10 16:29:21 <EML> X marks the spot, you mean?

Nov 10 16:29:27 <George_C> Ed: Fair enough! The Gw'oth are a fascinating idea.

Nov 10 16:29:27 <Lensman> Yup.

Nov 10 16:29:43 <Lensman> Ed: Yup.

Nov 10 16:30:54 <George_C> One must wonder why New Terra and the Gw'oth never appear in any Louis-Wu era KS stories . . . yet!

Nov 10 16:31:51 <Lensman> But yes, I'd like to know if Nike turns out to be RE's "Hindmost". After all, RE says he and Nessus mated a 2nd time "for love", and the romantic in me would like to think Nessus long campaign of romance ultimately succeeded.

Nov 10 16:32:10 <EML> We knew going in Louis Wu kenw nothing of the FLEET or New Terra. So it had to stay unfound.

Nov 10 16:32:52 <EML> My wife is rooting for those two crazy kids, too.

Nov 10 16:33:06 <Lensman> Point for George. Yah I'd say that's the #1 question... did New Terra ever discover Earth, or vice versa, and if so why/how did they keep it secret?

Nov 10 16:33:17 <George_C> Considering our own Solar System, I like the look at the life and tech of a species in the oceans under the frozen surface of a world.

Nov 10 16:34:09 <Lensman> Europa is probably the best hope for ET life in our solar system, yah.

Nov 10 16:34:22 <George_C> New Terra may be unfound, or found by one who has kept his mouth shut.

Nov 10 16:34:48 <Dan> Or found in a much later era.

Nov 10 16:35:20 <George_C> Europa, yes. And Larry is still showing us the odd pockets of the universe!

Nov 10 16:35:33 <Lensman> If it was discovered after the beginning of RE we wouldn't know about it, would we?

Nov 10 16:36:21 <Dan> It's even easier to argue about yet-to-be-written stories than it is to argue about old favorites.

Nov 10 16:36:21 <EML> Enceladus is another good prospect in this solar system.

Nov 10 16:37:58 <George_C> I'd like to see what good uses Nessus comes up with for his minions, helping to fix the chaos he caused on Earth.

Nov 10 16:38:59 <George_C> And, yes, the Puppeteers did apparently have their fingers, er, lips in the ARM!

Nov 10 16:39:15 <EML> very disarming, eh?

Nov 10 16:39:46 <George_C> Now: Do we call still call them Puppeteers, or Citizens? The latter is easier to type . . !

Nov 10 16:40:10 <EML> You'll see more about the ARM and minions in JUGGLER.

Nov 10 16:41:37 <George_C> Swwet!

Nov 10 16:42:04 <George_C> Sorry, can't get my lips to type -- I mean, fingers! Fingers!

Nov 10 16:44:12 <Dan> :)

Nov 10 16:44:34 <George_C> I suspect Juggler will answer many more questions. FOW dovetails very neatly with many aspects of KS. Must have been fun to write!

Nov 10 16:44:37 <Lensman> Well, it's said that the name of every primitive set of people for themselves translates to "People". I see "Citizens" as a mark of how insular the Puppeteers are.

Nov 10 16:44:46 <Dan> Try duct-taping one hand to your ribs, George.

Nov 10 16:45:17 <George_C> Dan: No thanks! Been there, done that.

Nov 10 16:45:17 <Lensman> I mean, how insular their society is.

Nov 10 16:46:03 <Dan> I keep hiting the Enter key with my pinkey finger when I'm actually reaching for the Shift key. :)

Nov 10 16:46:07 <George_C> The Trinocs are even worse than the Citizens.

Nov 10 16:46:28 <EML> George: Yup, I think you'll find many questions answered (and some new ones asked) in JUGGLER.

Nov 10 16:47:18 <George_C> Looking forward to it!

Nov 10 16:48:36 <EML> IIRC, we have seen very little of the Trinocs (outside the one appearance in "There Is a Tide." Any other major appearances?

Nov 10 16:48:59 <Dan> One mention in RW.

Nov 10 16:49:15 <Dan> at Louis' birthday party.

Nov 10 16:49:55 <George_C> I liked the insight into Ausfaller. Always liked his character.

Nov 10 16:51:35 <EML> Yes, Ausfaller is fun.

Nov 10 16:52:20 <George_C> He has more power and position than I would have thought they'd let him have.

Nov 10 16:53:27 <George_C> Apparently he is allowed to keep secrets even from the UN and the ARM. That has potential . . .

Nov 10 16:53:36 <EML> He, Sigmund? I hate to say this again but "It will be explained in ..."

Nov 10 16:53:54 <George_C> I know, I know! :-).

Nov 10 16:54:14 <Lensman> Siggy has always been one of my favorite characters, ever since "Neutron Star". I was very sorry to see him killed off in "Ghost". Ed had hinted that Siggy would be a character in FOW, I was disappointed that he's only seen offscreen.

Nov 10 16:54:28 <Larry> My problems with Trinocs are: they don't like being watched, and a paranoid species is too predictable. (Other authors have found otherwise. And see Smuggler for a paranoid society.)

Nov 10 16:54:40 <Lensman> I know, I know... wait for /Juggler/!

Nov 10 16:55:15 <Lensman> "Smuggler" ?

Nov 10 16:55:33 <Larry> Aye. Ausfaller is the main character in "Smuggler".

Nov 10 16:55:58 <Larry> Sorry, Ed. "Juggler."

Nov 10 16:56:59 <Lensman> Aha! Methinks Larry had a different name for JOW.

Nov 10 16:58:00 <EML> Hard to keep all those balls in the air ;-)

Nov 10 16:58:04 <Larry> It was always "Juggler", but now you've got me thinking. "Smuggler of Worlds?" How would anyone do that?

Nov 10 16:58:16 <Dan> OK Larry, now you and Ed have to write a short story called "Smuggler" featuring Sigmund, or else Lensman will burst out of frustration. :)

Nov 10 16:58:16 <EML> Really deep pockets.

Nov 10 16:58:26 <George_C> Between this discussion, and what is sure to come on the List, and the ones that will certainly follow Juggler, I would not be surprised to see a third book. Just sayin'.

Nov 10 16:58:40 <Lensman> LOL! Hmm... well there's the end of the movie "Men in Black"...

Nov 10 16:58:45 <EML> Recycler of Worlds?

Nov 10 16:59:12 <George_C> Snuggler of Worlds, starring Galactus?

Nov 10 16:59:34 <Dan> Nah, that sounds like porn.

Nov 10 17:00:20 <George_C> Smuggle a whole planet . . . highjack control of the world-motor?

Nov 10 17:00:26 <Lensman> Larry, it looks like you've retconned "deep radar" to use a neutrino pulse, instead of a hyperwave pulse. Would you care to comment on that?

Nov 10 17:01:51 <Larry> If I once thought it would be a hyperwave pulse, I don't recall. Neutrinos always seemed a need way to X-ray a moon or planet.

Nov 10 17:02:45 <jim_stiles> The mining industry has long sought out a way of making a neutrino radio.

Nov 10 17:02:54 <George_C> If you take control of the planet's motor, and redirect it, but no one knows you did, would that count as smuggling the planet?

Nov 10 17:02:55 <EML> It turned out some early stories were inconsistent on the technology underlying deep radar.

Nov 10 17:03:25 <Larry> ok.

Nov 10 17:03:34 <EML> Since some stories have deep radar before hyperdrive, it seemed cleanest to stick with neutrinos.

Nov 10 17:04:39 <George_C> Neutrino pulse makes slightly more sense than hyperwave pulse, but there could well be two technologies for the desired result.

Nov 10 17:04:47 <Larry> I should deal with domestic matters. Fare you all well.

Nov 10 17:05:00 <George_C> The idea being to detect stasis boxes.

Nov 10 17:05:03 <EML> By, Larry.

Nov 10 17:05:10 <George_C> Thanks for the time, Larry!

Nov 10 17:05:14 <jim_stiles> Bye, Larry.

Nov 10 17:05:36 <Dan> Bye, Larry.

Nov 10 17:05:40 * Larry has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Nov 10 17:06:04 <George_C> Okay, he's gone, spill it, Ed! :-)

Nov 10 17:06:41 <EML> oh, the pressure!!!!

Nov 10 17:06:58 <EML> And having said that ... spill WHAT?

Nov 10 17:07:59 <George_C> The plot for Juggler, of course! No, we don't really want to know. We love to speculate! It's what we do.

Nov 10 17:08:30 <George_C> Another cool thing in FOW: the altered human culture of the Colonists. A Citizen attempt at an acceptable human culture?

Nov 10 17:08:38 <Lensman> I was working on an article on hyperspace theory in KS. The idea that a hyperwave pulse could return useful information from inside a gravity well is hard to justify in light of the fact that hyperwave communicators can't operate inside a gravity well. Ed, is that what you mean by inconsistant? I thought perhaps Larry had deliberately ignored the previous mentions of hyperwave pulse used for deep radar, in "There Is a Tide" and IIRC in "The Soft Wea

Nov 10 17:10:21 <EML> Yes, TSW says deep radar uses hyperwave. OTOH, TIaT has Louis waiting for deep radar echoes, which implies not hyperwaves.

Nov 10 17:10:41 <Lensman> Good question, George. How much of Concordance Colonist culture is a result of Concordance meddling, and how much a result of the Colonists deliberatly mimicing their "benefactors"?

Nov 10 17:11:10 <EML> And in Flatlander, Elephant and Bey have to look around for the Outsiders, implying deep eradar is non-instantaneous.

Nov 10 17:11:12 <George_C> Good question back atcha. That had not occured to me.

Nov 10 17:12:34 <EML> Larry & I had in mind that Citizens imposed a culture like their own, tailored when they had to (as in nudity not working) or when the human elders successfully manipulated things.

Nov 10 17:12:43 <George_C> A hyperwave reveal of a stasis box might be very different than a neutrino reveal.

Nov 10 17:13:15 <George_C> Ed: Yeah, that was the impression I got, what with the missing words, like "war".

Nov 10 17:13:59 <George_C> I did wonder how they made nudity not work. It works in real life without affecting birth rates!

Nov 10 17:14:05 <Dan> Could "Deep Radar" be a generic name for tech that's evolved a lot over the years?

Nov 10 17:14:31 <George_C> Sure could. Happens all the time. Good point, Dan.

Nov 10 17:14:38 <Lensman> "Nothing but stars and stasis boxes were dense enough to show black in the reflection of a hyperwave pulse" ("There Is a Tide", /Tales of Known Space/ p. 203).

Nov 10 17:15:04 <Lensman> I assumed the delay in "Tide" was computer processing.

Nov 10 17:15:34 <George_C> Why would the Citizens want nudity to be a human taboo? They wear little enough themselves!

Nov 10 17:16:17 <Lensman> George: Yah, clearly that's not Citizen influence.

Nov 10 17:17:46 <EML> Citizens saw no need to waste resources on clothing ... but it messed up their attempts to control the bloodlines. (See end of chapter 36.)

Nov 10 17:18:00 <George_C> "reflection of a hyperwave pulse". This implies a hyperwave pulse reflects off things in normal space different ways. So would neutrinos, and without needing hyperwave tech.

Nov 10 17:19:19 <Lensman> "Flatlander": "I dropped out of hyperspace and set the deep-radar to hunt out the Outsider. [paragraph] The Outsider found us first."

Nov 10 17:19:25 <George_C> Ed: That's what I don't get. The implication is that nudity led to more mating. Well, maybe; you guys know that culture better than we do!

Nov 10 17:20:19 <Lensman> It did occur to me at one point to wonder if deep-radar could be made directional? If you're scanning space with a narrow beam, that might explain how the Outsiders found and approached the /Slower than Infinity/ before it finished its radar sweep.

Nov 10 17:20:38 <George_C> Point being, a culture may develop neutrino-type deep radar then improve it with hyperwave, but keep the name, as Dan suggested.

Nov 10 17:21:07 <Dan> And different ships would upgrade as budgets allowed.

Nov 10 17:21:18 <EML> This is an immature society (figuratively and literally) -- yes, the teenagers would be a bit difficult to control. And if there's no birth control, bacsue there are pairings the Citizens want to succeed ...

Nov 10 17:21:28 <Lensman> Well it makes more *sense* to me if deep-radar uses neutrinos instead of hyperwave pulse, but then we have the continuity problem to deal with.

Nov 10 17:21:57 <Dan> Some would still have the old system long after others had the latest gadgest.

Nov 10 17:22:04 <George_C> Just so, Dan. And either way, neutrino or hyperwave, I would think it would be directional. A wide beam, perhaps, but not in all directions at once.

Nov 10 17:22:36 <Lensman> I have no problem with the term "deep-radar" being used for different things. In fact, the term is also used in /World of Ptavvs/, clearly for a different technology.

Nov 10 17:22:59 <George_C> Good point, Ed. With no long-term cultural foundation, things might well get out of hand sexually.

Nov 10 17:23:46 <EML> fwiw, FLEET and JUGGLER use neutrinos for deep radar.

Nov 10 17:24:35 <Lensman> Ed: Yes, I noticed FOW was using neutrinos. That's why I brought the subject up. You said you thought earlier stories were inconsistant; would you care to expand on that?

Nov 10 17:25:31 <EML> I interspersed some comments above. To summarize. TSW said: hyperwave. TIaT said: takes time to get a return. Flatlander said: it takes time to get a return.

Nov 10 17:25:52 <Lensman> -k-

Nov 10 17:27:08 <George_C> Neutrinos may offer more info, while hyperwave may offer a quicker return. If neutrinos are quick enough, more info is better.

Nov 10 17:27:40 <George_C> Either will reveal you to those in the area, as noted in FOW.

Nov 10 17:27:59 <George_C> Hence the Scout Program.

Nov 10 17:28:18 <Lensman> Ed, I don't quite understand what the reference to the British East India Company means. Perhaps that's because I don't know enough about the actions of that company. Would you care to speak on that point?

Nov 10 17:28:19 <George_C> And now New Terra IS the Scout Program . . !

Nov 10 17:28:39 <EML> Neutrinos are light-speed. If you want to probe from outside the singularity, you can wait hours or days for a return.

Nov 10 17:29:06 <George_C> Exactly. Hyperwave would be instant. Why not use both?

Nov 10 17:30:02 <George_C> GP was based on EITC, a company that grew to give orders to the Crown.

Nov 10 17:30:21 <Lensman> The question is: If you can use hyperwave to probe inside a gravity well, why can't you use it for instant communications inside a gravity well? Why do they have to use laser relays in "the borderland of Sol" to pass messages to Earth?

Nov 10 17:30:42 <EML> The catch is, hyperwave should not work inside a gravity well. That's the case for hyperdrive and hyperradio -- and radar is just a radio echo.

Nov 10 17:31:32 <EML> Lensman -- exactly right. Hyper-radar should not work in the well.

Nov 10 17:31:36 <Lensman> Ed: Yes. That's what was giving me fits in my "Hyperspace Theory and Practice" article.

Nov 10 17:32:13 <George_C> Hyperwave used within the singularity, aimed at a planet, might show nothing . . . unless there's a stasis box on the planet. Then it shows an anomaly.

Nov 10 17:32:24 <EML> As for the British East India Company ... it was a crown creation given jurisdiction over India.

Nov 10 17:32:41 <Lensman> But I guess from what Larry said, the neutrino thing wasn't a deliberate retcon. At least not from his POV; perhaps it was from yours, Ed?

Nov 10 17:33:12 <George_C> Neutrino-based DR would show the shadow of the planet, density of it's makeup and core, etc.

Nov 10 17:33:23 <EML> George: the problem is, a hyperwave signal ought not to propagate inside the well, neither inbound nor as an echo outbound.

Nov 10 17:33:43 <Lensman> Ah, so the reference to the East India company indicates GP was given authority over Human Space?

Nov 10 17:34:37 <Dan> Exclusivity of access rather than authority, I'd guess.

Nov 10 17:34:38 <George_C> Like East India, GP also played fast and loose with the rules, doing what was best for the company, while seeming not to.

Nov 10 17:35:05 <EML> Exclusive authority and the notion of using the primitive natives' own money to control them.

Nov 10 17:35:28 <Lensman> Yah, the money thing was made explicit in FOW, IIRC.

Nov 10 17:35:42 <Dan> I sit corrected :)

Nov 10 17:36:47 <EML> About the deep radar inconsistency ... Larry & I spotted the inconsistency and picked a solution. Neutrinos seemed to fit best with everything else previously known or surmised.

Nov 10 17:37:32 <George_C> Ed: I concur. Hyperwave deep radar should not work within a system, just as hyperwave-based communication does not. Consider, however, the dispute over why ships can't use hyperdrive within a system.

Nov 10 17:38:06 <Lensman> As was observed very early in today's conversation, FOW touches on many subjects discussed on the list. IIRC it was I who pointed out that the four GP hull types couldn't be the only sizes possible, because the different number and size of holes in the hull indicated the hulls could *not* all be precisely the same volume, hence couldn't be the result of some sort of quantum limitation. Of course, that doesn't mean Larry got the idea from one of my po

Nov 10 17:38:21 <George_C> Neutrinos it is, then. In previous works, we may consider this retconned.

Nov 10 17:39:17 <George_C> Yeah, I liked the visit to the GP hull factory! Very cool.

Nov 10 17:39:47 <Lensman> Yes indeed, the visit to the GP factory was one of the books high points, for me!

Nov 10 17:40:00 <EML> the British East India Company is kinda fascinating. Check out Robert Clive sometime, or the Wars of the Carnatic.

Nov 10 17:40:14 <George_C> Poor Baedeker!

Nov 10 17:40:30 <EML> also back in JUGGLER ;-)

Nov 10 17:40:41 <Lensman> I realize there's a great deal I don't know about the British East India Company. I think the most I know is from one of the Flashman novels.

Nov 10 17:40:48 <George_C> Good. I kinda like him!

Nov 10 17:41:13 <Lensman> Baedeker: The Puppeteer you love to hate! :)

Nov 10 17:42:30 <EML> It's a bit of 20th century chauvinism that we invented world wars. The French & Indian Wars, the American revolution, the Napoleonic wars -- all world wars.

Nov 10 17:42:58 <EML> (The Wars of the Carnatic were the Indian subcontinent part of some of those early workd wars.)

Nov 10 17:43:07 <EML> worLd.

Nov 10 17:43:36 <Dan> It'd OK Ed, we speak typo here. :)

Nov 10 17:43:53 <Dan> See?

Nov 10 17:43:56 <Dan> LOL

Nov 10 17:44:18 <Lensman> One thing which surprised me was the lack of any mention of a stasis field used to stabilize the "neutronium traps". IIRC Brennan-monster stated he used a stasis field to stabilize his ball of neutronium, and in "The Borderland of Sol", Forward was using stasis fields, too. I thought it would have been a useful retcon to say the neutronium traps were wrapped in stasis fields.

Nov 10 17:45:18 <Lensman> Yes, if you can't translate typo, you'll never survive on the Internet! :D

Nov 10 17:45:29 <Dan> Hmmmmm... Lens, how would the gravity get out of a stasis field?

Nov 10 17:46:00 <George_C> Interesting that Nessus and the Citizens kept knowldege of stasis fields from the Colonists. Taught them to use deep radar, but not why?

Nov 10 17:46:09 <EML> Actually, there's a passing mention in chapter 27: "Uploading new calibrations for the implosion effect to the stasis-field generators. Baedeker sent new specs."

Nov 10 17:46:48 <Lensman> Gravity and momentum affects anything inside a stasis field, altho only in its entirety-- not independent action on separate things inside the field. Presumably the reverse is true.

Nov 10 17:47:32 <Lensman> Ed: Ah! Thanks, I neglected to put that in my notes.

Nov 10 17:48:16 <EML> gravity is a property of space time -- a "shape of space." There's nothing getting in or out of the stasis field.

Nov 10 17:49:11 <Dan> Rats! I thought I's finally found proof that gravity is faster than light. :)

Nov 10 17:49:45 <EML> Guys: herewith a twenty minute warning before I go to dinner.

Nov 10 17:49:53 <Dan> Never mind, very old joke.

Nov 10 17:51:00 <EML> Woe -- I struck y'all speechless.

Nov 10 17:51:06 <Dan> LOL

Nov 10 17:52:14 <Lensman> So, Ed, are you saying definitely stasis fields are used to stabilize the neutronium traps, or are you just saying there's a hint in FOW that this may be true?

Nov 10 17:52:15 <Dan> So what's the next project, Ed?

Nov 10 17:52:35 <George_C> Interesting point, Ed. The stasis field doesn't affect the mass of the object within, or it's affect on the shape of space. Of course, the boxes usually don't conatin enough mass to matter, if you'll pardon the pun.

Nov 10 17:53:37 <EML> Yes, Forward used a stasis field for his neutronium. More on the subject in (wait for it) JUGGLER.

Nov 10 17:54:10 <George_C> Good, because I seem to recall the object that killed the Trinoc ship Louis met was a ball of neutronium, no field. Am I mistaken, or may we assume Louis was unaware of it?

Nov 10 17:54:37 <EML> Dan: next project? Next up in book length is FOOLS' EXPERIMENTS, a near-future cyberthriller (out nominally 10/08)

Nov 10 17:54:54 <Lensman> Now it's official: Ed *is* a sadist! ;)

Nov 10 17:55:25 <Dan> Good, I like to hear that writers I like are keeping busy.

Nov 10 17:56:26 <George_C> ed, I will admit to not being familiar with your other work. What would you (or anyone else here) recommend as a good starting point?

Nov 10 17:56:30 <EML> Assume the trap in TIaT was created the same way. If the trap accreted more matter over the stasis field, that would be compressed into more neutronium.

Nov 10 17:57:07 <Lensman> George: I speculate in my KS Concordance that the neutronium "moon" in "There Is a Tide" might have had a stasis field around it, without Louis being aware of it. Would anything hitting the surface be pulled down so flat as to cause it to be shiny? I dunno, but that's my speculation, anyway.

Nov 10 17:57:34 <Dan> Good, that stops me from wondering how fast a stasis field could be made to strobe on and off and back on again.

Nov 10 17:58:03 <Lensman> I'd argue that it would just be degenerate matter; "collapsium" rather than neutronium. If neutronium was stable in such a small mass, it wouldn't need a stasis field around it.

Nov 10 17:58:04 <George_C> I suspect Louis would not consider the trap was a sphere within a field. Why would he?

Nov 10 17:58:23 <EML> Thanks, Dan. George, my two in-print solo books are the novel Moonstruck (2005, MMPB 2007) and the cyber-themed collection Creative Destruction (2006)

Nov 10 17:58:37 <Lensman> George: He wouldn't; that's why I think the retcon works so well.

Nov 10 17:58:59 <George_C> Thanks, Ed, I'll have a go at them!

Nov 10 17:59:04 <Lensman> I presume FOOLS' EXPERIMENT is not a Known Space story?

Nov 10 17:59:28 <EML> In FOW, we tried to flesh out the neutronium trap from TIaT -- motivate who was behind it and how they did it.

Nov 10 18:00:07 <EML> Lens: My only KS efforts to date have been FLEEET and JUGGLER.

Nov 10 18:00:19 <George_C> I had to agree with Nike (I think it was him), that such traps were foolish.

Nov 10 18:00:25 <Lensman> Ed: Yah, and I was amused to note the "paranoid" Trinoc was right about it being a deliberate trap. Louis thought it was just a piece of a smashed neutron star. He was wrong...

Nov 10 18:01:11 <George_C> "You are insufficiently cautious. I wonder that you have survived." Was that the Trinoc?

Nov 10 18:01:22 <Lensman> Ed, pardon my ignorance: Do you have series of your own? Is EXPERIMENT a stand-alone, or part of a series?

Nov 10 18:01:37 <Lensman> George: That sounds right.

Nov 10 18:02:34 <EML> A quick disclosure: the longest story in CREATIVE DESTRUCTION (called "Survival Instinct") is the core -- but less than 40% -- of the forthcoming novel FOOLS' EXPERIEMNTS.

Nov 10 18:02:48 <Lensman> Actually it's "...insufficiently suspicious".

Nov 10 18:03:11 <George_C> Ah! Thanks, Lensman.

Nov 10 18:03:54 <Lensman> :)

Nov 10 18:04:34 <EML> Lens: I do have a series (InterstellarNet), but it's been only in magazines (well, one story, "Creative Destruction" has been in a Year's Best" and is also in my collection).

Nov 10 18:04:48 <EML> Details at http://www.sfwa.org/members/lerner/interstellar.html

Nov 10 18:05:47 <EML> But FOOLS EXPERIMENT *is* standalone and not part of a series. Ditto the one after that, SMALL MIRACLES, which is near-future nanotech.

Nov 10 18:06:17 <George_C> Ed, I'm wondering how one ends up writing a major collaboration with Larry? How did FOW come about?

Nov 10 18:06:29 <EML> End of commercial. Anything else you'd like to know about FLEET before I turn into a pumpkin?

Nov 10 18:06:37 <Lensman> Thanks, Ed. So do you think full-out neutronium could be formed on the surface of the neutronium traps, or would it just be degenerate matter? Maybe I'm wrong... if it's just a matter of sheer gravity, perhaps infalling matter would become dense 'nuff to form another layer of neutronium atop the stasis field.

Nov 10 18:06:49 <Dan> When is the paperback out?

Nov 10 18:07:39 <EML> George: long answer. I talked about it at http://www.sfrevu.com/php/Review-id.php?id=6197

Nov 10 18:07:46 <Lensman> Ed: Well a hopefully quick question: Puppeteer/Companion gestation is said to be 1 year. Is that an Earth year or a Hearth year?

Nov 10 18:08:20 <George_C> Cool, thanks, Ed.

Nov 10 18:08:52 <EML> Dan: PB isn't scheduled yet, to my knowledge.

Nov 10 18:09:02 <Dan> Thanks.

Nov 10 18:09:21 <George_C> How long is a Hearth year?

Nov 10 18:10:25 <George_C> BTW, Ed, thanks for your time. I've been looking forward to this chat, and it's been fascinating!

Nov 10 18:10:29 <EML> Lens: you're probably correct that a few feet of neutronium wouldn't have enough gravity to squash infall into more neutronium. collapsium it is.

Nov 10 18:11:18 <EML> Earth vs. Hearth years? That'll come out in ...

Nov 10 18:11:26 <George_C> AAAAAAAAA!!!

Nov 10 18:11:26 <Lensman> AARGH!!

Nov 10 18:11:31 <George_C> LOL

Nov 10 18:11:33 <Dan> Juggler!

Nov 10 18:11:50 <George_C> That's Ed, always going for the Juggler! :-)

Nov 10 18:12:09 <Lensman> ROTFL! Two points for George!

Nov 10 18:12:22 <EML> Okay, all. I'm going to wrap up. It's been a lot of fun for me.

Nov 10 18:12:23 <George_C> Now the chat for JOW, that's gonna be something . . !

Nov 10 18:12:37 <George_C> Thanks again, Ed! Been a pleasure!

Nov 10 18:12:41 <Lensman> Thanks VERY much for attending, Ed. It's been wonderful.

Nov 10 18:12:47 <George_C> Indeed.

Nov 10 18:13:04 <jim_stiles> bye Ed

Nov 10 18:13:07 <Dan> Enjoy dinner, Ed. Thanks for the chat.

Nov 10 18:13:13 <Lensman> Goodnite Ed.

Nov 10 18:13:17 <EML> My pleasure, sincerely. Bye, all.

Nov 10 18:13:23 <George_C> Bye

Nov 10 18:13:29 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Nov 10 18:14:29 <George_C> I've missed a few monthly chats, but I wasn't missing this one, and I glad I didn't.

Nov 10 18:14:48 <Dan> This was a lot of fun.

Nov 10 18:14:55 <George_C> Sure was!

Nov 10 18:16:05 <George_C> FOW is a classic already, IMHO, and JOW should be awesome. Guess that chat they'll be telling us to wait for Smuggler!

Nov 10 18:16:20 <Dan> LOL!

Nov 10 18:16:34 <Lensman> :)

Nov 10 18:17:03 <George_C> I must admit that I expected more Listers to be here. Now how long do we wait until it's cool to start a FOW thread on the list . . ?

Nov 10 18:17:34 <George_C> One more week? Two?

Nov 10 18:17:54 <jim_stiles> The chat post mentioned something about a second wind that would come on about 1800 hrs PDT. Should I hang out until then?

Nov 10 18:18:37 <Dan> Dunno. Considering that I have to wait for the paperback edition in order to read the book, I'm not going to care about spoilers.

Nov 10 18:18:57 <George_C> That's in about two and 3/4 hours, might have more and different folks. I'll try to get back on.

Nov 10 18:19:27 <jim_stiles> Are MMPB generally released about 12 months after the handback?

Nov 10 18:19:47 <Dan> 9 to 12 months, usually.

Nov 10 18:19:52 <George_C> Maybe less, dependant on sales?

Nov 10 18:20:19 <Lensman> Jim: I can't make any promises about who will or won't show up. I think it's fairly clear neither Larry nor Ed will be back tonite. But I personally plan to stick around for anyone who wants to talk.

Nov 10 18:20:31 <Dan> Sometimes I get lucky and a publisher remembers that I do reviews for my e-zine, though.

Nov 10 18:21:13 <jim_stiles> Lensman, thanks for the information and your questions.

Nov 10 18:21:23 <Lensman> It *used* to be fairly standard for the pb to come out 12 months after the hc, but I don't know if that's as true as it used to be.

Nov 10 18:22:11 <Lensman> Jim: You're entirely welcome! :)

Nov 10 18:25:40 <jim_stiles> It has been my observation that Larry takes the marketing aspects of being an author (chats, e-mail list, conventions) more seriously than other authors.

Nov 10 18:27:24 <Dan> Having met Larry at a con, I believe that he has as much fun with the list, chats, & cons as we do.

Nov 10 18:31:39 <George_C> Yeah, I agree. Business aspects aside, fan activity is one of the percs of his job!

Nov 10 18:31:39 <jim_stiles> One of the URLs that Ed posted mentioned that he had earned an MBA. Does anyone know of any SF novels that involve economics of things like space travel?

Nov 10 18:32:28 <Lensman> I can't say that I know Larry well enough to have any insight on why he appears to be so fan-friendly. But I note he's a long-time member of fandom; his involvement in fandom predates his becoming a pro writer. So my *guess* is that he still wants to be a part of the fan community.

Nov 10 18:33:33 <Lensman> Piper's /Space Viking/ involves the economics of space travel. So does Asimov's /Prelude to Foundation/.

Nov 10 18:34:43 <Lensman> Perhaps C.J. Cherry's /Downbelow Station/, altho in a manner I found quite unbelievable and rather annoying. Oh, and Blish's /Cities in Flight/ is very concerned with galactic economics.

Nov 10 18:36:26 <Lensman> - /The Gripping Hand/ also touches on the Empire's economic difficulties.

Nov 10 18:37:20 <Dan> Cordwainer Smith's "Norastrilla" has some good sections on economics, as well.

Nov 10 18:37:52 <Dan> I might have typo-ed that title, though.

Nov 10 18:39:48 <Lensman> Some of Poul Anderson's "Nicholas van Rijn" stories might concern economics. I'm not sure I've even read /Trader to the Stars/.

Nov 10 18:40:08 <Lensman> - /Norstrilia/ IIRC.

Nov 10 18:40:34 <Dan> I couldn't remember. Thanks, Lens.

Nov 10 18:41:17 <Lensman> Cordwainer Smith isn't to my taste. I couldn't get into /Norstrilia/ altho I did finish /The Instrumentality of Man/.

Nov 10 18:42:40 <Dan> Like anyone else's work, some I like and some didn't do anything for me.

Nov 10 18:42:43 <Lensman> The only "Smiths" I currently have in my library are George O, George H, L. Neil... and of course "Doc".

Nov 10 18:44:24 <Lensman> "Norstrilia" is a contraction of "North Australia" if it helps. Which it doesn't, really... shouldn't it be "Norstralia" ?

Nov 10 18:45:03 <Dan> I think he took it from a phonetic spelling of someone's accent.

Nov 10 18:45:23 <Lensman> -k-

Nov 10 18:45:36 <Dan> As I recall, he greatly enjoyed the *sounds* of words.

Nov 10 18:46:29 <jim_stiles> He had a non-fiction story in Analog that was written entirely in Ander Saxon.

Nov 10 18:46:53 <Dan> Some of his poetry reads as if the sound was more important than the words used.

Nov 10 18:49:19 <George_C> Dinner's ready, so I'm off. I'll try to get back on in about two hours.

Nov 10 18:49:29 <Lensman> Bye George.

Nov 10 18:49:37 <jim_stiles> Bye George

Nov 10 18:49:41 <George_C> This has been great. If I don't get back, see you on the List!

Nov 10 18:49:45 <George_C> bye

Nov 10 18:49:48 * George_C has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Nov 10 18:58:03 <jim_stiles> Where are the logs of the chats stored?

Nov 10 18:58:33 <Lensman> One minute, Jim...

Nov 10 18:59:14 <Lensman> http://www.larryniven.org/java/index.shtml

Nov 10 18:59:19 <Lensman> Not all of them there, tho.

Nov 10 19:05:30 <jim_stiles> I wonder if JOW will cover the love affair between Nike and Nessus?

Nov 10 19:05:54 <Dan> Quite possibly.

Nov 10 19:08:13 <jim_stiles> Am I correct in my reading of FOW that Nessus understands Humans better than other Puppeteers?

Nov 10 19:09:13 <Lensman> I think that's a pretty safe statement. He's apparently spent more time around them than any other Puppeteer, at least in his lifetime.

Nov 10 19:09:30 <Dan> That's one we didn't ask, in so many words.

Nov 10 19:10:13 <Lensman> And clearly he *likes* Humans, or he whouldn't side with them even against the Concordance.

Nov 10 19:12:57 * growler (~growler@203.97.119.147) has joined #knownspace

Nov 10 19:13:15 * growler has quit ()

Nov 10 19:13:48 <jim_stiles> Just an observation: it seems like these chats (even with Larry and Ed participating) run much slower than other chats that I have been in.

Nov 10 19:13:57 <jim_stiles> Is it because we are older?

Nov 10 19:14:35 <jim_stiles> While I am not as young as I used to be, some on the list are even older.

Nov 10 19:14:57 <Dan> It might be that some of us are also doing other things at the same time.

Nov 10 19:16:08 <Dan> Currently I have the broken collarbone/arm in a sling to blame my slowness upon.

Nov 10 19:16:29 <jim_stiles> OT: I have noticed that the TV show Eureka is softer SF-wise than Star Wars. I didn't think it was possible.

Nov 10 19:17:11 <Dan> Well, that one is heavy on the fiction, if light on the science.

Nov 10 19:18:00 <Dan> But yeah, you have to consider it a Fantasy series.

Nov 10 19:23:12 <Dan> brb, my daughter is singing for us.

Nov 10 19:23:27 <Lensman> We didn't have very many people in the chat today. The more there are, the faster a chat goes.

Nov 10 19:23:47 <Lensman> At least, that's been my experience.

Nov 10 19:27:16 <Dan> OK, back.

Nov 10 19:29:28 <jim_stiles> Another OT: From R.L. Forward's autobiography "There was also a major thing that my mother did for me and my brother besides dedicating her life to bringing us up right. She paid our way through college. She did it through her writing. She entered a contest run by a manufacturer of boys' shirts, where you had to write the last line of a jingle that ended: "It has more value in it 2026" and she added "than first meets the eye." Five words

Nov 10 19:31:39 <Lensman> She probably got a pretty high word rate for that... :)

Nov 10 20:06:48 * jim_stiles has quit ()

Nov 10 20:07:01 * jim_stiles (~jim_stiles@207.255.122.223) has joined #knownspace

Nov 10 20:07:46 <jim_stiles> I'm back

Nov 10 20:09:29 <Dan> WB

Nov 10 20:33:25 <jim_stiles> I was able to download a copy of Space Viking from Project Gutenburg

Nov 10 20:33:40 <Dan> Good!

Nov 10 20:33:51 <Dan> That's one of the best.

Nov 10 20:34:08 <jim_stiles> rather Gutenberg

Nov 10 20:37:26 <Dan> Tons of historical references in that novel. I'm sure that I've never spotted more than a third of them, if that many.

Nov 10 20:39:50 <Dan> Personally, I'm rather fonder of "Four Day Planet" and "Cosmic Computer" novellas, myself. But Space Viking is a really good story, in any case.

Nov 10 20:39:59 <jim_stiles> Pet Peeve: The term Viking should never be used as a noun. The people we known as Danes; what the Danes did was Viking.

Nov 10 20:42:05 <Dan> That's one peeve that you'll be frustrated by for a long time, Jim. You'd be fighting "recieved wisdom" there. More or less futile to try and get folks to change just because they're wrong.

Nov 10 20:52:30 <jim_stiles> Yup

Nov 10 20:53:04 <Dan> When did that region split into different countries?

Nov 10 21:00:42 <jim_stiles> About AD 1000, but there were times since then that two or more kingdoms were ruled by a single monarch

Nov 10 21:04:46 <Lensman> - /The Cosmic Computer/ also has much to do with interstellar economics.

Nov 10 21:05:30 <Dan> How to set up a shipping empire, etc.

Nov 10 21:05:59 <Lensman> From various discussions on the Piper list, it does seem that SV has more food for discussion of the subject.

Nov 10 21:06:12 <jim_stiles> SV = ?

Nov 10 21:06:22 <Lensman> - /Space Viking/

Nov 10 21:06:26 <jim_stiles> OK

Nov 10 21:08:38 <Lensman> SV is similar to KS in having long hyperspace travel times, so bulk goods are not normally worth transporting. Some exceptions are noted in the novel, tho.

Nov 10 21:12:55 <Lensman> IIRC in one of Asimov's Empire/Foundation novels, it's said that Trantor (the Imperial capital) is fed by bulk food shipments arriving via starship every day. In /Prelude to Foundation/ Asimov retconned that away, noting it was economically much more feasible to feed the populace via what he called "microculture", or what older SF stories would call vat-grown food. I just started reading /Saturn's Race/, there's "textured algae" in that, which is the

Nov 10 21:19:17 <jim_stiles> bulk shipments of luxury foodstuffs to Trantor are not inconsistant with extensive Trantorian microculture

Nov 10 21:19:40 <jim_stiles> pee break

Nov 10 21:22:08 <Lensman> Luxury foods, yes. That's touched on in SV. But not bulk shipments of grain.

Nov 10 21:26:21 <Lensman> And clearly it depends on what type of space drive you're using. If its an instant-jump drive, such as in "One Face", then bulk shipments may be economical.

Nov 10 21:28:01 <jim_stiles> I believe that the Benford, Brin, and Bear Foundation Novels mention wormhole linkages in the galaxy that were abandoned as the empire fell

Nov 10 21:33:06 <Lensman> ? Are you saying those 3 authors wrote stories set in Asimov's Foundation universe?

Nov 10 21:35:08 <Lensman> I suppose artificial wormhole linkages would be the same thing as stargates.

Nov 10 21:37:39 <jim_stiles> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Foundation_Series#Other_authors

Nov 10 21:39:31 <jim_stiles> The artifical wormhole linkages were created by an earlier race of sentients that had died out, so it was similar to the stargates in Stargate SG-1, except that the wormhole linkages were in space.

Nov 10 21:40:27 <Lensman> Like the stargates or jump gates or whatever they called them in "Babylon 5".

Nov 10 21:41:47 <Lensman> That is, they worked like the B5 gates, but unlike the B5 gates were a product of Forerunner technology.

Nov 10 21:42:49 <Lensman> That would certainly be a change to the Empire/Foundation universe, where there are *no* aliens at all.

Nov 10 21:43:13 <Lensman> That is, no *sentient* aliens. Just animals & plants.

Nov 10 21:45:53 <Lensman> Frankly, I thought /Prelude to Foundation/ was almost completely devoid of anything of interest, and that ended my buying or reading new Foundation stories. However, /Foundation's Edge/ is one of my favorite Asimov novels, and I liked it much better than the other Foundation stories, which are completely lacking in any human emotion and almost completely devoid of action or suspense.

Nov 10 21:49:30 <jim_stiles> Have you read /Foundation and Earth/? It is a direct sequel to /Foundation's Edge/.

Nov 10 21:51:37 <Lensman> Yes, and I thought it was nearly as devoid of anything worth reading as /Prelude to Foundation/.

Nov 10 21:53:14 <jim_stiles> Broadly construed (that is containing authorized works by different authors), the Robots/Empire/Foundation universe did contain aliens. These aliens were destroyed by robots from Aurora in advance of humans immigration.

Nov 10 21:54:52 <Lensman> I guess that depends on whether or not you consider postumous additions by other authors as canon. I don't.

Nov 10 21:59:46 <Lensman> Sometimes non-canonical stories can be quite enjoyable. I thoroughly enjoyed the collection /The Exploits of Sherlock Holmes/. But I consider those to be fictional stories set within the world of Holmes, not actual "true" tales about Sherlock Holmes. I suppose my ideas on canonical "reality" has been greatly affected by reading /The Annotated Sherlock Holmes/.

Nov 10 22:00:23 <jim_stiles> What do you think of Ben Bova's Grand Tour Series?

Nov 10 22:07:42 <Lensman> IIRC I've only read one Bova novel, and didn't much care for it. A distinct lack of ending, which a friend of mine said was typical of his work. Was that /As On a Darkling Plain/? Not sure.

Nov 10 22:11:09 <jim_stiles> What does the abbreviation IIRC stand for?

Nov 10 22:11:56 <Lensman> If I Recall Correctly.

Nov 10 22:12:47 <Lensman> Per Wikipedia /As on a Darkling Plain/ is a Bova title, so that must be right. I remember very little of the novel, which is typical of something I didn't much care for.

Nov 10 22:13:24 <Lensman> But that doesn't mean there aren't other Bova titles I would enjoy. Maybe I just picked a bad one to start with?

Nov 10 22:16:51 <Dan> I'm fond of "The Dueling Machine", but it reads like a juvenile title, now that I'm in the geezer generation.

Nov 10 22:18:47 <jim_stiles> If you were to give Bova another chance, I would suggest either /Mars/ or /Jupiter/.

Nov 10 22:19:52 <Lensman> So what is the premise of the "Grand Tour" series?

Nov 10 22:26:49 <SeanS> greetings. how did the FOW chat go?

Nov 10 22:27:14 <SeanS> no spoilers please.... i havent ready yet

Nov 10 22:27:27 <SeanS> read it yet that should be

Nov 10 22:30:05 <Lensman> It was a bit slow, as there weren't many here, but both Larry and Ed showed up, so participants were quite pleased with the chance to chat with both authors!

Nov 10 22:30:36 <SeanS> cool... i have it logged but wont read it until i read the book itself

Nov 10 22:31:08 <Lensman> Oh, so we shouldn't tell you that the Tnucipun turn out to be Kzinti, and the core explosion is a hoax? Oh, wait... wrong story!

Nov 10 22:31:09 <jim_stiles> The "Grand Tour" series documents man's exploration of the solar system. Global climate change has disrupted the traditional political and economic order, which lead to the formation of powerful political groups (i.e. the New Morality) that enforce traditional Christian ethos.

Nov 10 22:31:29 <SeanS> both were in? i know ed comes in regularly. Larry showed up?

Nov 10 22:32:58 <Lensman> Yes.

Nov 10 22:33:01 <jim_stiles> The "Grand Tour" series also place significant emphasis on the role of private enterprise in the exploration, exploitation, and colonization of space.

Nov 10 22:33:35 <SeanS> cool... maybe he will make more regular apearences now that the java client makes it really easy

Nov 10 22:34:22 <Lensman> I asked Ed last week to invite Larry personally. Maybe that's why he showed up, I don't know.

Nov 10 22:34:30 <jim_stiles> Good Summary of the "Grand Tour" series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour_%28novel_series%29

Nov 10 22:35:04 <SeanS> i dont know either. whlle i have talked with larry, i wouldnt remotely call it regular communications

Nov 10 22:37:31 <Lensman> Hey Sean, would you please please put more of the chats up at the chat archive? I don't always get the chance to participate, and it's very nice to be able to read an archive!

Nov 10 22:38:04 <SeanS> i forward every log i have to mark firestone. tis up to him after that point

Nov 10 22:38:40 <Lensman> Oho! Well I know where he lives! ...in the virtual sense. :)

Nov 10 22:39:13 <SeanS> since i am in all the time on a linux client that never times out, i have everything

Nov 10 22:39:36 <SeanS> unless i redo the pc and miss something

Nov 10 22:40:36 <SeanS> you should notice that since i have been running the chat server, logs have shown up much more often

Nov 10 22:41:46 <Lensman> I'm not one of the old-timers on the list. Not sure how long I've been participating, I think over a year now.

Nov 10 22:42:39 <SeanS> if you look at the list of logs on larryniven.org, they are posted much more fequently than before

Nov 10 22:43:21 <Lensman> Thanks for all your work, Sean!

Nov 10 22:43:26 <SeanS> but since it is all done for free and fun, its take it as you get it

Nov 10 22:44:24 <SeanS> if mark doesnt have the time to post a log... just wait

Nov 10 22:45:41 <Lensman> Thus the eternal debate: FIAWOL vs FAJAGDH (Fandom Is A Way Of Life vs. Fandom Is Just A G--D--- Hobby).

Nov 10 22:46:04 <SeanS> it is a collaborative effort

Nov 10 22:46:57 <SeanS> jon, carol, and ted run the list. Mark is the webmaster, and i run the IRC. we are worlds apart... literally

Nov 10 22:47:53 <Lensman> Personally I'm into the FIAWOL philosophy, in fact on my local SF club FIAWOL! is my sig line. But I do realize that sometimes Real Life intrudes, and that ultimately it *is* just a hobby. Unlesss, of course, you're a pro or a dealer... :)

Nov 10 22:48:27 <SeanS> the list, webserver, and IRC are only together because we are friends with a common interest

Nov 10 22:50:20 <Lensman> Mark has arranged for my IKSC to be hosted at <concordance.larryniven.org>. Not sure how that works-- is it something that comes with the larryniven.org domain, or does someone (other than me!) have to pay extra for that?

Nov 10 22:50:26 <SeanS> and this IRC server wouldnt even be in existance without a phone call from Frank Gasperik

Nov 10 22:50:59 <SeanS> just a DNS change to point to a port on the IP

Nov 10 22:51:37 <Dan> Sort of like al the extra bits & bobs over at Aphelion.

Nov 10 22:51:50 <Lensman> Sean is Speaking in Tongues.

Nov 10 22:52:11 <SeanS> www.larryniven.org points to one IP address. irc.larryniven.org points to a port at my IP address

Nov 10 22:52:24 <Lensman> It's nice to know the way Frank has affected our lives continues on.

Nov 10 22:52:39 <SeanS> you have no idea, david

Nov 10 22:52:43 <Dan> I understood him, but I've been playing Internet for a long time now.

Nov 10 22:53:27 <SeanS> lensman, Frank Gasperik and his wife Peggy were two of my best friends

Nov 10 22:54:32 <SeanS> never met them in person unfotunately

Nov 10 22:58:16 <Lensman> I participate in the Dawn Patrol chat group; the guy who runs that is in Wichita, KS. We have weekly chats, and I felt that I was good friends with several there who I'd never met. One night a bunch of us local fen gathered at the local IMAX theatre... I think it was for "Fantasia 2000". I heard someone call "Lensman!", which was rather odd as I'n not called that in my local group. I wandered over to discover that several of the Dawn Patrollers wer

Nov 10 23:00:16 <SeanS> i have been in the dawn patrol chats

Nov 10 23:00:28 <SeanS> if it is the same one

Nov 10 23:01:30 <Lensman> They are now a pale shadow of their former selves; we used to have 20+ there regularly, and the chat would go from 8 to about 10:30. Now usually only a few show up, and most leave at 9 pm. :( I admit I don't participate as often as I used to, either.

Nov 10 23:02:57 <Lensman> I wish the Niven chats were more frequent, but frankly I prefer the slower pace of conversation. I can't keep up when there are 20 people talking!

Nov 10 23:03:02 <SeanS> i was there by Frank's request... dont know if it is the same

Nov 10 23:03:20 <Lensman> I rather imagine it is. Pinky's Place?

Nov 10 23:03:46 <SeanS> the server operates 24/7 i dont just bring it up for 'official' chats

Nov 10 23:03:46 <Lensman> Combo pilots' and fandom group? Can't be very many of those!

Nov 10 23:04:13 <SeanS> its been awhile. i dont recall

Nov 10 23:04:39 <Lensman> Sean: Yes, I know it's always here, that's why I invited people in for a FOW chat today. But the "official announcement" goes out only once a month.

Nov 10 23:05:26 <SeanS> do you want to take charge of making the 'official' announcement? i forgot this month

Nov 10 23:06:36 <Lensman> If you like, sure. I'll set up a monthly reminder at the "Memo to Me" site, which is what I did to remind myself of the date of the FOW chat.

Nov 10 23:06:59 <Dan> Once I go back to work I won;t be able to pop in as often as I have this last 6 weeks.

Nov 10 23:07:18 <SeanS> have at it, david

Nov 10 23:07:35 <Lensman> Terrible how Real Life interferes with fanac. :(

Nov 10 23:08:22 <Dan> Aweful that I have to go on medical leave in order to *have* a real life, :)

Nov 10 23:08:39 <SeanS> i like real life. lets me drink with friends and hang with my gf

Nov 10 23:09:35 <Dan> I was able to read some of a book today, for the first time since the cae wreck.

Nov 10 23:09:51 <SeanS> need to kill a large woodland creature tomorrow for that matter

Nov 10 23:10:07 <Dan> Now if I can just manage to work on some stories for my zine.

Nov 10 23:10:07 <Lensman> Eye trouble? Concentration trouble? Both?

Nov 10 23:11:20 <Lensman> "Large woodland creature"? Deer season opening, or did a reference whizz over my head?

Nov 10 23:11:29 <Dan> Concussion. Messed up my vision and concentration for reading. That and the broken collarbone have made this the worst time I've ever had off from work.

Nov 10 23:11:52 <SeanS> deer season has been open here since september the first. just running low

Nov 10 23:11:56 <Lensman> Bummer, Dan.

Nov 10 23:12:20 * SeanS is a member of PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals

Nov 10 23:12:41 <Dan> Really. 4000+ books in the house and I couldn't read. LOL!

Nov 10 23:12:45 <Lensman> Mmmm, yes, I'm a member of *that* PETA also. :)

Nov 10 23:13:43 <Lensman> Altho I confess I've never hunted anything but jackrabbits... and tin cans.

Nov 10 23:14:17 <SeanS> i hunt everything

Nov 10 23:14:58 <Lensman> What a straight line...

Nov 10 23:15:59 <SeanS> if you wish to make a joke... go ahead

Nov 10 23:17:49 <Lensman> Chmeee would likely rebuke me: "How much intelligence does it take to sneak up on a tin can?"

Nov 10 23:20:43 <SeanS> i dont hunt tin cans. but name your tasty animal

Nov 10 23:20:59 <Lensman> So, Sean, what do you use for hunting large woodland creatures? A shotgun with buckshot, or what?

Nov 10 23:21:16 <Dan> Chevy truck.

Nov 10 23:21:19 <Dan> :)

Nov 10 23:21:20 <SeanS> thats illegal in kentucky.

Nov 10 23:21:27 <SeanS> buckshot that is

Nov 10 23:21:53 <SeanS> i use a crossbow, blackbowder .50 rifle, and a .270

Nov 10 23:22:36 <Lensman> Well, anyone who hunts for food with a bow & arrow or crossbow certainly has *my* respect!

Nov 10 23:23:02 <SeanS> the two rifles dont but the crossbow does?

Nov 10 23:23:14 <Lensman> I've shot a black powder rifle, but only at targets. I'm not a bad shot at a still target, but those pesky rabbits move around...

Nov 10 23:24:12 <Dan> Rabbits are easier to trap than to shoot, I've found.

Nov 10 23:24:35 <SeanS> i want to see lensman statement on my question

Nov 10 23:24:48 <Lensman> I don't know what you mean by a .270. Is that another black powder rifle? Well certainly it's a challenge hunting with anything that takes a minute or so to reload.

Nov 10 23:25:11 <SeanS> the .270 is a modern gun

Nov 10 23:25:39 <Lensman> I certainly didn't mean to start an argument, Sean. My apologies if I offended you.

Nov 10 23:25:54 <SeanS> you didnt.. i am just waiting on an answer

Nov 10 23:27:12 <Lensman> Let's just say I don't have much respect for those who go deer hunting with assault rifles, particularly if there's beer involved.

Nov 10 23:27:44 <SeanS> and what do you consider assault rifles?

Nov 10 23:28:36 <jim_stiles> How often are assault rifles used against deer? Assault rifles are designed to be used against people.

Nov 10 23:28:42 <Lensman> If there's something involved which makes it a *challenge*, such as a weapon with long reload times or with limited force (bow & arrow, crossbow), then the hunter has my respect.

Nov 10 23:29:11 <SeanS> well, for a good hunter, divid, one shot is all thats needed

Nov 10 23:29:29 <SeanS> so your argument is totally irrelivent

Nov 10 23:29:36 <Lensman> Is the term "assault rifle" ambiguous? I'm not a gun expert, but I thought the meaning was clear. Something like one of the AK-47 imitators?

Nov 10 23:29:57 <SeanS> my .270 holds 4 rounds and is bolt action

Nov 10 23:30:47 <SeanS> an assault rifle is a 20+ round capacity rifle that can fire full auto

Nov 10 23:31:29 <SeanS> my black powder holds one round and takes ME about 2 minutes to reload

Nov 10 23:31:53 <SeanS> i can reload the crossbow faster than that

Nov 10 23:34:17 <Dan> Oh, I got a beautiful powder horn for my black powder rifle & pistol off of e-bay last week.

Nov 10 23:35:48 <SeanS> your original comment implied that you put the crossbow in the same category as the bow and arrow. I was trying to figure out why

Nov 10 23:35:50 <Dan> Mostly black, but with white, cream, and about 3 shades of gray highlights.

Nov 10 23:36:42 <SeanS> I will see that, dan... i just use the standard stuff here for black powder... i use pyrodex but it is the same thing... just burns cleaner

Nov 10 23:38:28 <Lensman> Because (a) both the crossbow and the bow-and-arrow ultimately depend on muscle power, not chemical explosives; and because both of them have to have individual "missiles" loaded.

Nov 10 23:39:03 <SeanS> obviously, you have never hunted

Nov 10 23:39:27 <Dan> Well, I'll still have to buy powder to fill it, but the horn is ready to use.

Nov 10 23:39:48 <Lensman> Same with your bolt-action rifle. I've used a semi-auto rifle to hunt rabbits, but it seemed rather un-sporting. The prey should have *some* chance to escape.

Nov 10 23:40:17 <SeanS> wait on

Nov 10 23:40:19 <SeanS> e

Nov 10 23:43:14 <SeanS> back

Nov 10 23:43:34 <SeanS> get pyrodex

Nov 10 23:43:48 <Dan> I will.

Nov 10 23:43:49 <SeanS> the crossbow is silent death

Nov 10 23:44:23 <SeanS> anybody that hunts rabit with a rifle is an idiot unless he is sniping them from a distance

Nov 10 23:44:48 <Lensman> What type of crossbow do you use? Is it cocked with a foot stirrup, or do you have to use a goat's foot or windlass?

Nov 10 23:45:09 <SeanS> the prey should have NO chance... otherwise you are just wounding the animal

Nov 10 23:45:32 <SeanS> foot stirrup...cocked in about 3 seconds

Nov 10 23:46:21 <SeanS> if i pop something, i want it to fall over right there if at all possible

Nov 10 23:46:23 <Lensman> I'm surprised you can get enough power to kill a deer with that.

Nov 10 23:46:47 <SeanS> 150 lb draw weight

Nov 10 23:47:16 <SeanS> i think... not mine, i just use it around the house so as not to endanger the neighbors much

Nov 10 23:48:01 <Lensman> That's a pretty stiff pull for a foot stirrup! Are you using a belt hook to help cock it, or just pulling on it with finger pressure?

Nov 10 23:48:23 <SeanS> it will stick the head deep in a tree at 300 yards... what more do you need

Nov 10 23:48:43 <SeanS> 300 feet... sorry

Nov 10 23:49:09 <SeanS> finger pressure

Nov 10 23:49:17 <SeanS> step on it and pull

Nov 10 23:49:55 <Lensman> Well, as I said, I've never done any serious hunting. I'm surprised that you can kill a deer with a hand-cocked X-bow, that's all.

Nov 10 23:50:51 <SeanS> well, i am not letting you change the drift of the convo that much... why do you think that one tool should be used over another

Nov 10 23:51:09 <SeanS> which was the original question

Nov 10 23:51:50 <Lensman> I don't understand why buckshot is illegal in your state. Is it considered too dangerous to other hunters?

Nov 10 23:52:13 <SeanS> because that is the rule of the state... still not answering?

Nov 10 23:52:46 <jim_stiles> gotta go, see ya later

Nov 10 23:52:54 <SeanS> later jim

Nov 10 23:52:57 <Lensman> I guess I'll call it a night also.

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Nov 10 23:53:12 <SeanS> oh well

Nov 10 23:53:14 <Dan> Bedtime for me, folks. Gotta get up early tomorrow to see my oldest girl off to the airport.

Nov 10 23:53:34 <SeanS> night dan

Nov 10 23:53:41 <Dan> Night, Sean!

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