April | THE UNIVERSE OF LARRY NIVEN

Saturday, 6 April, 2013 - 12:00am

2013-04-06 00:11:21 : "Akiraa" joined the channel.
2013-04-06 00:16:11 : <fredskuentz> Yeah, I added it when I passed it on.
2013-04-06 00:16:25 : <fredskuentz> It just scared me when you said 'day later' ...
2013-04-06 00:16:52 : <fredskuentz> Outsider: Tell Gofffan welcome to your latest Larry Niven chat!
2013-04-06 00:17:18 : <fredskuentz> Outsider: tell Gofffan welcome to your latest Larry Niven chat!
2013-04-06 00:17:19 : <Outsider> fredskuentz: I'll pass that on when Gofffan is around.
2013-04-06 00:17:41 : <fredskuentz> Jesus. Can we throttle the clown that made that case sensitive?
2013-04-06 01:31:25 : "Akiraa" left the channel.
2013-04-06 01:44:34 : <andy> fredskuentz: Yes! If we can find him...I think he's gone into hiding.
2013-04-06 03:42:33 : <fredskuentz> Did Firestone write Outsider?
2013-04-06 06:42:17 : "Elettaria" left the channel.
2013-04-06 08:38:32 : "Akiraa" joined the channel.
2013-04-06 08:54:18 : "boorishly" joined the channel.
2013-04-06 09:07:57 : "Akiraa" left the channel.
2013-04-06 10:38:57 : "Akiraa" joined the channel.
2013-04-06 13:20:43 : <sean> Firestone did not write Outsider
2013-04-06 13:20:52 : <sean> Outsider is the phenny bot.
2013-04-06 13:21:13 : <sean> http://inamidst.com/phenny/
2013-04-06 13:21:53 : <sean> the author: http://inamidst.com/sbp/
2013-04-06 13:30:57 : <sean> .weather 40601
2013-04-06 13:31:00 : <Outsider> Clear â˜¼, 48.2â„‰ (9â„ƒ), 30.17in (1018mb), Light breeze 4kt (â†‘) - KLOU 12:53Z
2013-04-06 14:15:28 : "Lensman" joined the channel.
2013-04-06 14:24:30 : <sean> hi David
2013-04-06 14:30:32 : <sean> wondered if that would work
2013-04-06 15:34:09 : <Lensman> Hi Sean! Just peeking in for now.
2013-04-06 17:22:03 : <fredskuentz> Hey Lensy
2013-04-06 17:39:57 : <sean> .weather 40601
2013-04-06 17:39:58 : <Outsider> Clear â˜¼, 64.4â„‰ (18â„ƒ), 30.11in (1016mb), Gentle breeze 7kt (â†‘) - KLOU 16:53Z
2013-04-06 17:54:03 : <Lensman> Hi Fred, hi fen.
2013-04-06 18:09:21 : "Jim" joined the channel.
2013-04-06 18:19:01 : "NickE" joined the channel.
2013-04-06 18:19:29 : <Lensman> Hi Nick.
2013-04-06 18:22:13 : <NickE> hey Lens
2013-04-06 18:22:16 : <Jim> hi
2013-04-06 18:22:16 : <NickE> everyone
2013-04-06 18:22:42 : <NickE> in and out for a bit - dinner and stuff
2013-04-06 18:26:00 : "Hippy" joined the channel.
2013-04-06 18:26:18 : <Lensman> Welcome Hippy!
2013-04-06 18:26:32 : <Hippy> Hi, Lens!
2013-04-06 18:26:59 : <Lensman> How is life treating you these days?
2013-04-06 18:26:59 : <Hippy> I'm a little early, but I'm going through the throes (alliteration) of installing a new mIRC
2013-04-06 18:27:31 : <Hippy> Pretty good. I am now ensconced in suny Florida and looking forward to a whirlwind tour of the US before my visa expires
2013-04-06 18:28:03 : <Lensman> I use Chatzilla, a FireFox addon, to access chat. Haven't used mIRC for ages.
2013-04-06 18:28:14 : <Hippy> How about you? Is it cold in Kansas? Are you exploiting the new FTL Internet Google has provided?
2013-04-06 18:28:50 : <Hippy> I used Firefox for the first time the other night. I hate learning curves
2013-04-06 18:28:59 : <Lensman> We signed up for the 2nd round of Google Fiber, hasn't been installed yet.
2013-04-06 18:29:10 : <Lensman> Fairly warm today.
2013-04-06 18:29:16 : <Lensman> And yesterday.
2013-04-06 18:29:26 : <Hippy> Oh, I had the impression they had wired the whole of KC
2013-04-06 18:29:43 : <Lensman> I guess Thor or whoever finally decided yes, it's really Spring, enough snow.
2013-04-06 18:30:17 : <Lensman> Hah. Our neighborhood was the first or second to get fibered up, but you still have to pay to connect.
2013-04-06 18:30:53 : <Hippy> Ah. . .
2013-04-06 18:31:33 : <Lensman> Gonna take quite a while to fiber up the entire Kansas City area, if that's even their goal. I hear a suburb down south, Olathe KS, is next.
2013-04-06 18:32:21 : <Lensman> When I say "our neighborhood" I mean exactly that. Not the whole of Kansas City, Kansas. Just the Dub's Dread area where all the new housing is.
2013-04-06 18:32:50 : <Lensman> Most of Kansas City KS is more down-scale.
2013-04-06 18:32:56 : <Hippy> Yes, that was spoken about on This Week In Tech. Well, I am surprised to find that the whole of KC isn't fibered (or fibred) yet. Google seems to be saying it is. Still, that's hype for you
2013-04-06 18:33:26 : <Lensman> This area is upper middle class, or at least upper middle middle class.
2013-04-06 18:33:57 : <Lensman> Hype squared and cubed!
2013-04-06 18:34:35 : <Hippy> Much of Orlando - or, I should say, El Ciudad de los Americanos, is down scale too. Still, lots of restaurants, so that's something
2013-04-06 18:34:53 : <Lensman> It does make me feel special to be in the first neighborhood to get Google Fiber!
2013-04-06 18:35:23 : "gofffan" joined the channel.
2013-04-06 18:35:30 : <Hippy> You shold feel special! You may be the only fibred neighbourhood in North America for decades. . .
2013-04-06 18:35:38 : <Hippy> Hi, goffan
2013-04-06 18:35:40 : <gofffan> hey
2013-04-06 18:35:41 : <Outsider> gofffan: 00:17Z <fredskuentz> tell gofffan welcome to your latest Larry Niven chat!
2013-04-06 18:35:46 : <Lensman> That sounds pretty pessimistic.
2013-04-06 18:36:07 : <Hippy> Well, more cynical than pessimistic
2013-04-06 18:36:56 : <Hippy> Actually, I think the demand for greater speed is certainly there. It will depend on what Google's business model is. Certainly Verizon eta al aren't keen on fibring up
2013-04-06 18:37:11 : <sean> its a fiber backbone here.
2013-04-06 18:37:25 : <Hippy> It is?
2013-04-06 18:37:36 : <sean> yep
2013-04-06 18:37:40 : <Hippy> So Google hasn't done anything Frankfort didn't do first?
2013-04-06 18:38:04 : <sean> its not fiber to every house but the backbone is fiber
2013-04-06 18:38:13 : <gofffan> difficult in big cities like New York where buildings are wired copper or coaxial
2013-04-06 18:38:21 : <Lensman> I dunno if the Google Fiber business model will succeed or not. But even if it's ahead of its time, the tech will spread. The USA is 25th in education in the world... maybe we'll be no more than 25th in getting universal high speed Internet hookups.
2013-04-06 18:38:32 : <Hippy> Ah, I see what you mean.
2013-04-06 18:38:54 : <sean> there is fiber running down my street with coax from the fiber to my house
2013-04-06 18:39:17 : <gofffan> is that considered fiber?
2013-04-06 18:39:28 : <Hippy> I'd hope not
2013-04-06 18:39:52 : <sean> its all digital. they jumped my speed to 30 megabit.
2013-04-06 18:39:56 : <Lensman> Google Fiber runs fiber to the actual house. Not just the backbone.
2013-04-06 18:39:59 : <Hippy> So, all you would need to do is get fibre yourself somehow?
2013-04-06 18:40:32 : <Hippy> I'm seeing all this Google publicity in a new light.
2013-04-06 18:40:36 : <gofffan> hey Hippy! Yeah, easier in a house I guess.
2013-04-06 18:40:44 : <Lensman> $300 hookup fee, which isn't bad since you get free Internet guaranteed for 7 years at least.
2013-04-06 18:41:00 : <Hippy> Here I was thinking that Lens had superfast Internet, a flying car, robot housemaid, talking dog etc
2013-04-06 18:41:30 : <Lensman> Maxy can talk! I asked him what's on the outside of a tree, and he said "Bark! Bark!"
2013-04-06 18:41:48 : <Lensman> And I asked him what's on top of a house and he said "Roof! Roof!"
2013-04-06 18:42:02 : <Lensman> And I asked him what sandpaper feels like, and he said "Ruff! Ruff!"
2013-04-06 18:42:06 : <Hippy> Tha's good. Next you can ask him about weaving on a loom
2013-04-06 18:42:56 : <Lensman> Flying car? Hey, I'm still waiting for those lift motors to be invented here. We need to catch up to Known Space!
2013-04-06 18:43:21 : <Hippy> Surely you'd just teleport?
2013-04-06 18:43:38 : <gofffan> Losw grade Cavorite.
2013-04-06 18:43:42 : <gofffan> low
2013-04-06 18:44:04 : <Hippy> Someone should do a hard SF study of Cavorite
2013-04-06 18:44:08 : <Lensman> Well sure. Unless you're going off-grid.
2013-04-06 18:44:22 : <Hippy> Good point, Lens
2013-04-06 18:45:01 : <Lensman> Pretty sure we dissected Cavorite thoroughly here. It would allow perpetual motion, so doesn't fit in anything remotely approaching a hard-SF universe.
2013-04-06 18:45:32 : <gofffan> Some sort of gravity disrupter then.
2013-04-06 18:46:00 : <Hippy> I might hae to look that chat up
2013-04-06 18:46:23 : <Lensman> Not to mention it wouldn't work as Wells described. He has the effect restricted to a vertical column above the plate of Cavorite. He ignored non-perpendicular gravitational attraction.
2013-04-06 18:47:25 : <Hippy> Posibly they're trivial compared to the greatest mass radiating the gravity
2013-04-06 18:47:43 : <Lensman> I presume lift motors work on an antigravity principle. Hindmost specifically uses the word "antigravity" in RINGWORLD ENGINEERS and says Louis and Chmeee are used to flying vehicles using it.
2013-04-06 18:47:46 : <Hippy> I mean, if you're blocking the whole Earth, what difference does a nearby chair make?
2013-04-06 18:49:06 : <Hippy> Certainly Cavorite appears to have been one-sided in its blocking of gravity. Stuff it was painted on to blocked the effect
2013-04-06 18:49:21 : <Lensman> Hippy: That's not the point. Gravity doesn't come just from the mass directly between your feet and the center of the Earth. The entire planet pulls on you; the vast majority of the attraction isn't perfectly perpendicular.
2013-04-06 18:50:08 : <gofffan> So the mechanism would have to be spherical and adjust accordingly.
2013-04-06 18:50:22 : <Lensman> If Cavorite was real, then you'd get a sharp dropoff directly above the plate, but as you rose into the air, the gravity would gradually get stronger.
2013-04-06 18:50:26 : <Hippy> Like the one in the movie
2013-04-06 18:51:16 : <Hippy> Ah, because the mass pulling at you is so large. Got it
2013-04-06 18:51:21 : <Jim> The chat appears to have started early.
2013-04-06 18:51:47 : <Hippy> Hi, Jim. No, we're just shooting the breeze
2013-04-06 18:52:00 : <Lensman> Anything inside a sphere covered with Cavorite would be weightless, yes. But the rising column of air going to the top of the atmosphere as Wells describes... nah.
2013-04-06 18:52:47 : <Lensman> Getting to Luna still works, as per the book. It's just that some of the incidental details of how Cavorite works, simply wouldn't be correct.
2013-04-06 18:52:53 : <Hippy> Hmm. You shold be able to calculate how far up the rising column would extend
2013-04-06 18:53:54 : <Lensman> But perpetual motion is easy. Just put a heavy wheel suspended with half of it above a plate of Cavorite. The heavy side is pulled down; the wheel spins endlessly and you can use it to generate useful power.
2013-04-06 18:54:22 : <gofffan> Ah. So it IS impossible.
2013-04-06 18:54:38 : <Hippy> I don't see why that's impossible
2013-04-06 18:54:43 : <Lensman> In any universe where perpetual motion is impossibe, Cavorite cannot exist.
2013-04-06 18:54:48 : <gofffan> Perpetual motion?
2013-04-06 18:55:11 : <Hippy> No, Lens's design being for all intnets and purposes perpetual
2013-04-06 18:55:12 : <gofffan> There has to be a degradation of some sort, no?
2013-04-06 18:55:18 : <Lensman> Note human life would not be possible if perpetual motion was possible. Metabolic processes require entropy.
2013-04-06 18:55:31 : <Hippy> I would've thought so, but not in the effect of gravity or Cavorite
2013-04-06 18:56:05 : <Hippy> So, there is special perpetual motion and general perpetual motion, the former being possible
2013-04-06 18:56:32 : <gofffan> Mass degrades. Is Earth's gravity the same since its creation?
2013-04-06 18:56:38 : <Lensman> Not sure what you mean, Hippy.
2013-04-06 18:57:40 : <Lensman> It's better to look at the way Einstein talked about gravity. It's just a side-effect of mass being present; it's not an active force requiring expenditure of energy.
2013-04-06 18:57:41 : <Hippy> Well, metabolic processes require entropy, and so are cases where motion isn't perpetual, but there could be cases where motion is perpetual - ie, special cases. So metabolism still exists and life can exist
2013-04-06 18:58:49 : <gofffan> Lensman - ah yes. correct. But it is regulated by mass.
2013-04-06 18:58:58 : <Lensman> Hippy: Okay, you're postulating a universe where both entropy and perpetual motion can exist side-by-side. I don't see how that's possible, but perhaps that's only because I have insufficient imagination.
2013-04-06 18:59:44 : <Hippy> Well, like Harvey in that movie, I've overcome space, time and any objections :)
2013-04-06 19:00:40 : <Lensman> goff: Yes. But the Earth radiating gravity doesn't use up mass. Gravity is a condition of space, not an active force. (And yeah, I know about potential energy and gravity. So far as I'm concerned, "potential energy" is just a way to make the math come out right. I don't think it has any basis in reality.)
2013-04-06 19:00:57 : <Hippy> I have insufficient knowlesge of physics to see whether there are any objections to entropy and PM existing in the same universe, but I'm prepared to accept that there are some
2013-04-06 19:02:08 : <Lensman> Hippy: Well, you've certainly made it worth joining the conversation today! I'll probably be pondering the implications of a universe where both can co-exist for some time.
2013-04-06 19:02:20 : <Hippy> What about the gravity drag in Known Space? Doesn't that turn potential energy into hea rather than motion?
2013-04-06 19:02:42 : <Hippy> I aim to please, Lens :)
2013-04-06 19:03:58 : <gofffan> Lensman - understood.
2013-04-06 19:04:39 : <fredskuentz> It's noon!
notices that we've been going for an hour and no mention of copyright. Not bad!
2013-04-06 19:04:56 : <Lensman> Another way to look at gravity is to consider a spring. Yes, it takes energy to compress a spring. But once it's compressed, it doesn't require additional energy to -keep- it compressed. It stores X amount of energy in the compressed spring, and that energy will remain until the spring is released.
2013-04-06 19:05:30 : <Lensman> Noon in California, yes. Calling Larry!
AFK briefly to get nourishing beer
2013-04-06 19:06:59 : <Lensman> Hippy: A gravity drag turns -velocity- into heat. Not gravity.
2013-04-06 19:07:30 : <Lensman> "Gravity drag" is probably not a good descriptive name.
2013-04-06 19:07:42 : <sean> Hippy: just did the same myself
2013-04-06 19:08:23 : <sean> Beer in front of me and Tequila playing on Radio Margaritaville
2013-04-06 19:08:56 : <fredskuentz> James Bond marathon on EPIX
2013-04-06 19:09:17 : <sean> sometimes i get epix but it comes and goes... right now it is gone
2013-04-06 19:09:25 : <Lensman> From the Known Space Concordance: "gravity drag: A spacecraft system which converts the ship's momentum relative to the nearest large mass into heat. The starship Slower Than Infinity carried this system in 2645. In 2647 it was apparently standard equipment on all Human-built ships, and was used by the starship Argos. A spaceport indicator could detect landings via gravity drag."
2013-04-06 19:09:32 : "dmac44" joined the channel.
2013-04-06 19:09:42 : <dmac44> Hi guys.
2013-04-06 19:09:50 : <sean> watched rocky blow up vietnam, then one of the worst movies ever made came on. Superman 3
2013-04-06 19:09:52 : <sean> hi dmac
2013-04-06 19:10:03 : <fredskuentz> so far I've watched the worst Moore film, part of the second worst Moore film, one of the two worst Dalton films, the first Connery and the first Brosnan (the one I worked on)
2013-04-06 19:10:03 : <Lensman> Okay... turns momentum into heat, not velocity.
Perpetual Motion and Entropy: Can they coexist?
2013-04-06 19:10:55 : <Lensman> Worst Moore film. "Moonraker"?
2013-04-06 19:10:59 : <fredskuentz> nah
2013-04-06 19:11:06 : <fredskuentz> View to a Kill
2013-04-06 19:11:12 : <fredskuentz> it's *wildly* worse
2013-04-06 19:11:15 : <gofffan> Grace Jones
2013-04-06 19:11:19 : <Lensman> Which one has him running across the backs of crocodiles?
2013-04-06 19:11:20 : <fredskuentz> it was worse than I remembered
2013-04-06 19:11:26 : <fredskuentz> that's Live and Let Die
2013-04-06 19:11:30 : <fredskuentz> the second worst
2013-04-06 19:11:41 : "Larry" joined the channel.
2013-04-06 19:11:41 : <gofffan> none were very good
2013-04-06 19:11:43 : <fredskuentz> probably alligators though
2013-04-06 19:11:45 : <fredskuentz> Florida
2013-04-06 19:11:48 : <sean> hi Larry
2013-04-06 19:11:50 : <fredskuentz> Greetings Larry!
2013-04-06 19:11:52 : <dmac44> hi Larry.
2013-04-06 19:11:58 : <Lensman> "Live and Let Die" has Jane Seymour. I will abstain from rating that one; I'm prejudiced.
2013-04-06 19:12:14 : <Larry> Hi all
2013-04-06 19:12:21 : <Lensman> Yeah okay, I concede the Grace Jones was was worse.
2013-04-06 19:12:24 : <Lensman> Hi Larry!
2013-04-06 19:12:26 : <gofffan> Hello Larry!
2013-04-06 19:12:35 : <fredskuentz> there's stuff in View to a Kill I don't even understand
2013-04-06 19:13:15 : <Jim> hi
2013-04-06 19:13:16 : <Larry> Greg and I have finished and polished SHIPSTAT and turned it in.
2013-04-06 19:13:26 : <Lensman> Topic of conversation: We were discussing Cavorite and I asserted it couldn't exist in a universe in which human life exists, as Cavorite allows perpetual motion. Hippy thinks PM and entropy could exist in the same universe.
2013-04-06 19:13:35 : <Larry> sorry. SHIPSTAR.
2013-04-06 19:13:50 : <Lensman> Is SHIPSTAR a stand-alone?
2013-04-06 19:13:56 : <fredskuentz> Like, they redo the Diamonds Are Forever scene with Plenty O'Toole "Hi, I'm plenty" "But of course you are" but in this, the girl's name is "Jenny Flex"
2013-04-06 19:14:06 : <fredskuentz> Why is that a double entendre or a joke or anything?
2013-04-06 19:14:42 : <dmac44> Larry, does that finish the Bowl of Heaven series?
2013-04-06 19:14:46 : <Larry> I'd say Hippy's wrong. I don't see how Cavorite could exist in a consistent physics.
2013-04-06 19:15:31 : <Hippy> I'll accept that
2013-04-06 19:15:34 : <Jim> agreed
2013-04-06 19:15:37 : <Larry> THE BOWL OF HEAVEN and SHIPSTAR constitute a two volume novel.
2013-04-06 19:15:56 : <fredskuentz> Do the rules of Cavorite differ significantly between the book and the movies?
2013-04-06 19:15:59 : <sean> I have Bowl but have not started it yet.
2013-04-06 19:15:59 : <Hippy> I just finished Bowl of Heaven this morning, so now looking forward to SHIPSTAR. Bird Folk are the best aliens ever
2013-04-06 19:16:09 : <Lensman> Well, the way Wells describes it is inconsistant. That's not to say it couldn't exist in a universe without entropy, but it would work differently.
2013-04-06 19:16:28 : <Lensman> Fred: I don't think so, no.
2013-04-06 19:17:22 : <Lensman> Not substantially different between book and movie, anyway.
2013-04-06 19:17:43 : <sean> dont know if i have ever seen the movie
2013-04-06 19:17:54 : <Larry> SHIPSTAR is already scheduled for January 2014. I'm relieved. BOWL OF HEAVEN didn't have a decent ending, just a handful of cliffhangers. I couldn't find a good place to stop it.
2013-04-06 19:17:58 : <Hippy> It's a good movie
2013-04-06 19:18:22 : <Lensman> See it for the Harryhausen stop-motion if you enjoy animation. It is rather dated, admittedly.
2013-04-06 19:18:28 : <Hippy> That would be difficult, or would've made a HUGE book
2013-04-06 19:19:04 : <Hippy> See it for Lionel Jefferies as Cavor. Good performance
2013-04-06 19:19:33 : <Lensman> Indeed, Hippy.
2013-04-06 19:19:49 : <sean> hmmm.
2013-04-06 19:20:03 : <Hippy> ChanServ has achieced sentience
2013-04-06 19:20:08 : <Larry> Huge book, yeah. Greg kept introducing new elements, and I ws playing catch-up. I know how Jerry must have felt with MOTE.
2013-04-06 19:20:09 : <sean> trying to set it so anyone can change topic.
2013-04-06 19:20:38 : <Hippy> Just give us all op status
2013-04-06 19:21:03 : <sean> will mess with it some other time.
2013-04-06 19:21:20 : <Hippy> It's classic Niven, though. Lots of things to think about, and the Folk are still pretty mysterious
2013-04-06 19:21:41 : <Hippy> Or enigmatic. I thought at first they would be the Folk from the Draco Tavern, which would've been fun
2013-04-06 19:21:51 : <Hippy> But these are more intriguing aliens
2013-04-06 19:22:04 : <sean> best aliens ever is a heck of a statement, especially about an author that came up with the moties.
2013-04-06 19:22:28 : <Hippy> Hmm. You have a point about the Moties
2013-04-06 19:22:46 : <Hippy> Might change to that to 'second best', then
2013-04-06 19:22:49 : <Lensman> I want to be given the power to ban myself. "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." --Groucho Marx
2013-04-06 19:23:04 : <Larry> I've been talking past people. Sorry? Or is this how chat works? anyway, I can't figure out a Cavorite physics. I can, however, perceive a Doc Smith variable-entropy universe.
2013-04-06 19:23:20 : <sean> i have not yet read bowl so i can not compare
2013-04-06 19:24:07 : <Lensman> Larry: Multiple conversations simultaneously is common in chat rooms. Besides, we all want to hear what you have to say.
2013-04-06 19:24:13 : <Larry> and the Folk in BOWL were Greg's. We both have aliens in BOWL, and more yet in SHIPSTAR.
2013-04-06 19:24:50 : <Lensman> Is entropy variable in the LENSMEN universe?
2013-04-06 19:25:14 : <Lensman> Does nullification of inertial require variable entropy?
2013-04-06 19:25:20 : <Hippy> Ah. Well, that moves Moties back tot he top of the Niven list. Now I'll have to ponder which aliens are yours, Larry
2013-04-06 19:26:04 : <Lensman> Gonna be really really hard to beat Moties. It's not just Niven fans who have proclaimed them the best-developed aliens in all of SF.
2013-04-06 19:26:33 : <Larry> The ships in Lensman could turn entropy on and off. I tried to introduce an entropy throttle. Annoyed John W Campbell a lot. I used it in ARM (the short story.)
2013-04-06 19:26:36 : <Lensman> I haven't read BOWL so can't comment on the aliens in that.
2013-04-06 19:27:43 : <Lensman> Larry: I remember how you use partial inertialessness in "ARM" quite well. Could you please explain why inertialessness requires or implies lack of entropy?
2013-04-06 19:27:46 : "Louis_Wu" joined the channel.
2013-04-06 19:27:47 : <Hippy> It looks like I'm one of the few, the proud. . .
2013-04-06 19:28:06 : <Louis_Wu> walks off the stepping disk.....
2013-04-06 19:28:13 : <Louis_Wu> Greetings!
waves
2013-04-06 19:28:51 : <Lensman> Campbell was still editing ANALOG when "ARM" was published?
2013-04-06 19:28:58 : <Larry> I claim the finger snakes. Greg took the Ice Minds from aliens that were mine decades ago. Actually that kind if one-upmanship is tradition with us.
2013-04-06 19:29:12 : <Louis_Wu> Wouldn't perpetual motion increase entropy....?
2013-04-06 19:29:39 : <Larry> Campbell was editing Analoig when I submitted the first draft of ARM. I got a 12 page letter. Used it too.
2013-04-06 19:30:23 : <Lensman> Perpetual motion implies a lack of entropy in the system. I suppose you mean it increases entropy outside the system?
2013-04-06 19:31:04 : <Louis_Wu> Lensman: I'm assuming you're measuring in a closed system to begin with ( necessary)
2013-04-06 19:31:25 : <Larry> I didn't try to reconcile the inertia throttle with entropy. didn't and don't know enough.
2013-04-06 19:32:28 : <Lensman> Well, this is too hypothetical for me. Let's take the aforementioned Cavorite perpetual motion machine. Take a heavy wheel, suspend half of it above a Cavorite plate. The heavy part falls, the light part goes up. Perpetual motion, and you can get useful work if you hook it up to a shaft.
2013-04-06 19:32:48 : <Lensman> Now, where does the energy come from? Nowhere. So that's a violation of entropy.
2013-04-06 19:33:02 : <fredskuentz> I don't understand why the wheel moves at all.
2013-04-06 19:33:15 : <fredskuentz> there's no evidence that cavorite draws other object to it
2013-04-06 19:33:25 : <gofffan> no gravity above it
2013-04-06 19:33:35 : <Hippy> The energy comes from the velocity of the wheel-half falling
2013-04-06 19:33:36 : <Larry> Moties were FUN! And we've been having the same kind of fun with the Bowl. Greg was hitting me with new ones right and left.
2013-04-06 19:33:44 : <sean> half of the wheel is weightless so the other have is constantly falling, turning the wheel
2013-04-06 19:33:45 : <Lensman> The part of the wheel that's above the Cavorite plate is weightless. The other half is heavy. The heavy part falls, spinning the wheel.
2013-04-06 19:34:07 : <fredskuentz> when have we seen cavorite work on anything other than itself?
2013-04-06 19:34:23 : <fredskuentz> cavorite coated materials and things they're attached to move
2013-04-06 19:34:23 : <Louis_Wu> sean: You can't get something from nothing; the wheel comes to a stop even without loading it
2013-04-06 19:34:29 : <fredskuentz> but not things above them
2013-04-06 19:34:50 : <fredskuentz> the roof doesn't blow off the shack before the sphere launches
2013-04-06 19:34:53 : <Hippy> What if you angle the plate off the horizontal?
2013-04-06 19:35:06 : <sean> bio
2013-04-06 19:35:12 : <Louis_Wu> Hippy: Then it doesn't move at all
2013-04-06 19:35:14 : <Larry> Lensman is right about Cavorite and perpetual motion (of the free energy variety), and I don't see any better way to explain it.
2013-04-06 19:35:16 : <fredskuentz> the cavorite plate drags itself towards what it's pointed at
2013-04-06 19:35:19 : <Lensman> In both book and movie, they put a weight above a Cavorite plate and it's thrown up by a column of fast-rising air.
2013-04-06 19:35:30 : <fredskuentz> uh
2013-04-06 19:35:32 : <fredskuentz> they do?
2013-04-06 19:35:39 : <Lensman> Yup.
2013-04-06 19:35:48 : <fredskuentz> You'll have to cite me that in the movie
2013-04-06 19:35:58 : <gofffan> Remember the greenhouse explosion?
2013-04-06 19:35:58 : <fredskuentz> the cavorite demo is painting a chair
2013-04-06 19:35:59 : <Lensman> If you disallow the wheel, I'll just put a fan in the column of air. It's still generating useful power.
2013-04-06 19:36:12 : <Hippy> They paint the bottom of a chair, which then rises up once the Cavorite cools to the correct temperature
2013-04-06 19:36:22 : <fredskuentz> the green house goes up when the sphere launches
2013-04-06 19:36:35 : <gofffan> more than that - it's a plume of air.
2013-04-06 19:36:42 : <fredskuentz> I'll grant you debris goes with it, but there was probably cavorite splatter everywhere
2013-04-06 19:37:03 : <Hippy> Just the wind would do that, fred
2013-04-06 19:37:37 : <NickE> back
2013-04-06 19:37:38 : <Lensman> The roof of the greenhouse is pushed up by the same column of air that carries the Sphere aloft. Watch carefully that scene in the movie. They do it right! Pieces of the roof start to lift off *before* the Sphere hits it... just as Wells describes.
2013-04-06 19:37:52 : <NickE> whoa, missed a load
2013-04-06 19:37:58 : <fredskuentz> but that's not how they explain cavorite working
2013-04-06 19:38:06 : <gofffan> side effecct
2013-04-06 19:38:07 : <Hippy> Of course, the slot the wheel has to pass through isn't Cavorite, so the wheel won't move at all
2013-04-06 19:38:19 : <fredskuentz> I grant you that's a cool scene, but it goes completely against what they say happens
2013-04-06 19:38:22 : <Hippy> What if you paint half the wheel with Cavorite?
2013-04-06 19:38:32 : <fredskuentz> that's fine until it turns :D
2013-04-06 19:38:47 : <Lensman> Hippy: Huh? What slot? There is no slot. The plate is on the ground under the wheel.
2013-04-06 19:38:57 : <fredskuentz> cavorite does 2 (probably mutually exclusive) things
2013-04-06 19:39:05 : <fredskuentz> it cuts off the force of gravity
2013-04-06 19:39:10 : <Lensman> Fred: Okay, what do they say happens?
2013-04-06 19:39:13 : <fredskuentz> and attracts itself to stuff it's pointed at
2013-04-06 19:39:42 : <Lensman> Yes, it cuts off the force of gravity. Air pressure pushes the air up because there is no gravity holding down that column of air above the plate.
2013-04-06 19:39:52 : <gofffan> each side does something different?
2013-04-06 19:39:57 : <Hippy> If the plate is on the ground then the whole wheel is weightless (more or less, ignoring your other minor gravities)
2013-04-06 19:39:58 : <fredskuentz> they navigate in space by pointing a closed shutter at an object like the sun, flying blind towards it
2013-04-06 19:40:00 : <Louis_Wu> It cuts off gravity; you mean it changes spacetime?
2013-04-06 19:40:30 : <Louis_Wu> lensman: Whats the range of the effect ....??
2013-04-06 19:40:33 : <Lensman> No, the entire wheel is not weightless because only half of it is above the plate! The other half hangs out into the gravity field.
2013-04-06 19:40:44 : <gofffan> right
2013-04-06 19:40:53 : <Hippy> No, they open the shutter and the gravity then affects the sphere
2013-04-06 19:41:04 : <gofffan> third base
2013-04-06 19:41:13 : <Lensman> Fred: No, they navigate in space by -opening- a shutter that's in the direction they want to go.
2013-04-06 19:41:13 : <Louis_Wu> gofffan: lol
2013-04-06 19:41:36 : <Louis_Wu> Hrmmm
2013-04-06 19:41:40 : <Lensman> Open the shutter, you're attracted by anything in that direction that exerts gravity. Like Sol or Luna.
2013-04-06 19:41:44 : <Hippy> Ah, so the wheel is not horizontal? Tje axis of rotation doesn't point through the plate?
2013-04-06 19:41:56 : <Louis_Wu> If you paint the inside of a sphere with it would it act like an inertial damping system.......?
2013-04-06 19:42:04 : <Lensman> Wheel is vertical. Like on a car.
2013-04-06 19:42:29 : <Hippy> Then how can half the wheel be weighted?
2013-04-06 19:42:54 : <Hippy> No, skip that. I get it
2013-04-06 19:43:08 : <Lensman> I didn't think it was that hard to envision...
pictures Lensman hitting the backspacve key
2013-04-06 19:43:15 : <Hippy> The part of the wheel furthest from the plate weights slightly more
2013-04-06 19:43:18 : <Lensman> Sean is correct.
2013-04-06 19:44:26 : <Lensman> Inertial dampening? Hmmm... not sure what you mean.
2013-04-06 19:45:09 : <Louis_Wu> Lensman: You drive your car at 50 mph then stomp on the brake; inertial damping means you don't have to taste the steering wheel
2013-04-06 19:45:26 : <Hippy> I made the mistake that the wheel would be entirely blocked from Earth's gravity, but forgot to include that it would be susceptible to everything else
2013-04-06 19:45:48 : <Lensman> Now the interesting thing is that inside the Sphere, if you can "see" a planet, then you're attracted to it, but if you can't then you're weightless. So the force of gravity can exert different forces on the Sphere as a whole, as distinct from individual objects inside.
2013-04-06 19:46:21 : <Lensman> I mean I'm not sure how Cavorite could be used for inertial dampening, but I'm thinking about it.
2013-04-06 19:47:21 : <gofffan> As would be needed by Jodie Foster in 'Contact'
2013-04-06 19:47:38 : <Hippy> Hang on, how does the wheel even turn? The force of gravity is strongest on the part of the whell furthest from the plate, so it stops at that position
2013-04-06 19:47:40 : <Larry> By Wells's description, you want to go to the Moon, you raise a screen in that direction. You want to slow down, you're out of luck. He'd hit hard.
2013-04-06 19:47:57 : <fredskuentz> there's also the problem that you don't have to cover the whole sphere
2013-04-06 19:48:02 : <Lensman> Painting the inside instead of the outside of the Sphere with Cavorite. Well, that means there would still be the weight of the Sphere itself... which likely means you'd never get off the ground.
2013-04-06 19:48:07 : <fredskuentz> only a fraction, well less than half
2013-04-06 19:48:19 : <Lensman> Well, half the weight of the Sphere.
2013-04-06 19:48:45 : <fredskuentz> cavorite isn't negating gravity
2013-04-06 19:48:50 : <Larry> Hippy, gravity is pulling down on one rim of the wheel. It keeps pulling down on that side. Or are you having us on a little?
2013-04-06 19:48:54 : <fredskuentz> it's clearly a force of it's own
2013-04-06 19:49:03 : <Lensman> Larry: Yeah, I think they used the Sun for braking before they hit. Obviously that is problematic, depending on the exact geometry.
2013-04-06 19:49:23 : <sean> it has been too long since i have read the story.
2013-04-06 19:49:59 : <gofffan> Let's face it - being able to hit the moon using a few shutters covered in Cavorite as your targeting method would be a daunting task.
2013-04-06 19:50:24 : <sean> hitting it wouldnt be too hard. surviving would
2013-04-06 19:50:31 : <gofffan> ha
2013-04-06 19:50:35 : <Hippy> Why isn't it pulling down on both rims of the wheel, at the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock points? And isn't 12 o'clock the furthest point from the Cavorite and thus closer to the external gravity source (say, the Moon or something)?
2013-04-06 19:51:18 : <Lensman> Cavorite cuts off the force of gravity. The force cannot travel thru it. So if you paint a flat plate on the surface of the Earth with Cavorite, then it cuts off the force of gravity above that. If half a wheel is above the plate, then that half of the wheel is weightless. The other half is still heavy. Gravity pull down on the heavy side, endlessly. The wheel spins, endlessly. Perpetual motion.
2013-04-06 19:52:04 : <Hippy> Oops. Forgot that bit :(
off to get a head-clearing beer
2013-04-06 19:52:26 : <Lensman> Hippy: If the 3 O'clock position is being pulled down, why would the 9 O'clock position? The 9 O'clock is weightless.
2013-04-06 19:52:27 : <sean> head clearing?
2013-04-06 19:52:54 : <Hippy> I need something. I can't even remember details of these mechanisms
2013-04-06 19:53:15 : <Hippy> I can visualise it now, Lens
2013-04-06 19:53:20 : <Lensman> Good.
needs a head-clearing lobotomy or something
2013-04-06 19:53:34 : <fredskuentz> the question is, why is cavorite polarized?
2013-04-06 19:53:35 : <Lensman> As Larry said... I was wondering if you were pulling our legs!
2013-04-06 19:53:49 : <fredskuentz> why does a sheet of it cut off gravity above it and not below it?
2013-04-06 19:53:58 : <Hippy> No, it was gravity doing that!
2013-04-06 19:53:59 : <Lensman> Fred: it's not.
2013-04-06 19:54:11 : <fredskuentz> yes, it is
2013-04-06 19:54:20 : <Lensman> Cuts off gravity going from above to underneath, too.
2013-04-06 19:54:22 : <fredskuentz> that's Cavor's description of how it works
2013-04-06 19:54:55 : <Lensman> Well, if the movie has him saying that, then there is a distinct difference.
2013-04-06 19:55:03 : <fredskuentz> The book has him saying that
2013-04-06 19:55:04 : <Lensman> From the book.
2013-04-06 19:55:07 : <fredskuentz> I can't access the movie
2013-04-06 19:55:24 : <Lensman> Do you have the book there?
2013-04-06 19:55:40 : <fredskuentz> "Well, so soon as it reached a temperature of 60 degrees Fahrenheit, and the process of its manufacture was complete, the air above it, the portions of roof and ceiling and floor above it ceased to have weight."
2013-04-06 19:55:55 : <Lensman> Yes...
2013-04-06 19:56:06 : <fredskuentz> the air above cavorite hurtles up
2013-04-06 19:56:12 : <Lensman> Yes...
2013-04-06 19:56:13 : <fredskuentz> the air to the sides rushes in
2013-04-06 19:56:18 : <fredskuentz> the air below, not affected
2013-04-06 19:56:19 : <Lensman> Yes...
2013-04-06 19:56:31 : <fredskuentz> if it was, the sheet itself would go up
2013-04-06 19:56:51 : <fredskuentz> Cavor specifically talks about the air above the sheet
2013-04-06 19:57:20 : <fredskuentz> somehow it's a byproduct of him making a thin sheet of the stuff in the first place
2013-04-06 19:57:30 : <fredskuentz> it's both directional and polarized
2013-04-06 19:57:34 : <Lensman> Okay, well that is another case where Wells isn't a scientist.
2013-04-06 19:57:44 : <Lensman> As Larry said, it's not consistant.
2013-04-06 19:57:45 : <fredskuentz> and given that, I have no idea how the sphere works
2013-04-06 19:58:03 : <Larry> my compliments to Wells. His idea is self-evidently fascinating. Heck, he thought up all the good stuff.
2013-04-06 19:58:25 : <sean> he did
2013-04-06 19:58:28 : <sean> he and verne
2013-04-06 19:58:36 : <Jim> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upsidasium
2013-04-06 19:58:42 : <fredskuentz> the sheet doesn't fly, but it gets sucked up by the column of rising air it created
2013-04-06 19:58:44 : <fredskuentz> um
2013-04-06 19:58:55 : <fredskuentz> I'm not sure why it ceased to be a problem at that point :)
2013-04-06 19:59:25 : <Lensman> Yes, what you cite isn't an inconsistancy, Fred.
2013-04-06 19:59:43 : <Lensman> I just didn't want to argue with you.
2013-04-06 20:00:37 : <Hippy> Okay, back. There will be nore misunderatandings from now on
2013-04-06 20:00:46 : <Lensman> The reason why the rising column of air wouldn't exist is that gravity is not all perpendicular to the center of the Earth. As the air rises, the effect would drop off sharply.
2013-04-06 20:01:07 : <Lensman> Hippy: Just what do you mean by that? I don't understand.
2013-04-06 20:01:11 : <Lensman> :)
2013-04-06 20:01:26 : <Hippy> Well, clearly it's contagious :)
2013-04-06 20:01:36 : <sean> i read it as no more
2013-04-06 20:01:40 : <Lensman> Effect lessens the farther you get from the plate. Note the Sphere still works.
2013-04-06 20:01:41 : <fredskuentz> btw, Cavorite cuts off ALL radiant energy
2013-04-06 20:01:47 : <fredskuentz> light, heat, gravity, you name it
2013-04-06 20:02:09 : <Lensman> Cuts off heat? Well that would be quite useful.
2013-04-06 20:02:15 : <Hippy> Chilly in there
2013-04-06 20:02:18 : <Lensman> A perfect insulator!
2013-04-06 20:02:22 : <fredskuentz> maybe
2013-04-06 20:02:23 : <Larry> sounds like Cavorite is black. I didn't remember that.
2013-04-06 20:02:42 : <Lensman> It's not black in the movie.
2013-04-06 20:02:44 : <gofffan> Golden in the film, no?
2013-04-06 20:02:53 : <fredskuentz> Cavor: "Well, when all these windows or blinds are shut, no light, no heat, no gravitation, no radiant energy of any sort will get at the inside of the sphere"
2013-04-06 20:02:59 : <Lensman> Sounds right, goff
2013-04-06 20:03:29 : <Lensman> Well, we can always say that Cavor was wrong... :)
2013-04-06 20:03:35 : <fredskuentz> I wonder if heat can escape ...
2013-04-06 20:03:35 : <Hippy> It must be on YouTube somewhere
2013-04-06 20:04:01 : <fredskuentz> if so, it radiates out, and can't get back in, and it's gonna get cold in there fast
2013-04-06 20:04:31 : <Lensman> Yeah, if heat can't escape... Well, it will get warm inside the Sphere. They won't cook because there are joints.
2013-04-06 20:04:35 : <Hippy> Assuming the Cavorite is directional, as you say
2013-04-06 20:04:37 : <fredskuentz> I did have the shutters backwards
2013-04-06 20:04:40 : <fredskuentz> "But open a window, imagine one of the windows open. Then at once any heavy body that chances to be in that direction will attract usâ€”""
2013-04-06 20:04:56 : <fredskuentz> I hope he means 'open the shutter' and not 'open the window'
2013-04-06 20:05:07 : <fredskuentz> opening windows on a spaceship is generally 'bad'
2013-04-06 20:05:08 : <fredskuentz> :)
2013-04-06 20:05:14 : <sean> opening the window would not be a bright idea
2013-04-06 20:05:15 : <gofffan> You can't listen to closely to Cavor. He was sick with a bad cold and wasn't thinking straight.
2013-04-06 20:05:20 : <Lensman> LOL! Well, back to the drawing board.
2013-04-06 20:05:47 : <Lensman> goff is obviously correct.
2013-04-06 20:06:09 : <fredskuentz> I hadn't remembered this
2013-04-06 20:06:13 : <Hippy> It sounds like Cavorite would make a perfect reflector. Now, where have I read that before?
2013-04-06 20:06:24 : <fredskuentz> our hero wants to come up with practical applications for Cavorite
2013-04-06 20:06:30 : <fredskuentz> like moving heavy stuff
2013-04-06 20:06:36 : <Lensman> A stasis field doesn't cut off gravity.
2013-04-06 20:06:43 : <fredskuentz> Cavor says you can't because it will be hurtling the air away
2013-04-06 20:06:53 : <fredskuentz> you can't use Cavorite anywhere *but* space
2013-04-06 20:06:54 : <Hippy> True, Lens
2013-04-06 20:06:57 : <Louis_Wu> A stasis field *does* halt entropy
2013-04-06 20:07:00 : <Lensman> Oh, what a spoilsport.
2013-04-06 20:07:27 : <Lensman> A stasis field slows entropy a lot, but doesn't actually stop it completely.
2013-04-06 20:07:53 : <Louis_Wu> Lens: "a lot" .....? :)
2013-04-06 20:07:57 : <Hippy> The air would come back, though. Presumably there is alimit to Cavorite's range, or the Moon would be moving slightly out of orbit
2013-04-06 20:08:12 : <fredskuentz> He says the air would come back, but we'd all be dead
2013-04-06 20:08:17 : <fredskuentz> so we wouldn't care
2013-04-06 20:08:17 : <fredskuentz> :D
2013-04-06 20:09:30 : <fredskuentz> also ... don't they crash the sphere into the ocean at the end? Why isn't the ocean hurling into space?
2013-04-06 20:09:56 : <Hippy> Because the shutters are rolled up
2013-04-06 20:09:57 : <Lensman> Well, Cavorite causing all the air on Earth to be spat out into space would be bad, but that's merely a challenge to figuring out how to use it creatively. Such as with an open mesh in which the air column would be intermixde with non-weightless air.
2013-04-06 20:11:33 : <fredskuentz> but your mesh is trying to hurl itself into space :)
2013-04-06 20:11:44 : <Lensman> No, I'm not arguing a technical exception. It's specifically stated that time does pass inside a stasis field, at different rates depending on the quantum level. It's not really a "stasis" field... it's a "time slows down really, really a lot" field.
2013-04-06 20:12:43 : <Lensman> Fred: Yes, but you fasten the mesh down firmly.
2013-04-06 20:12:52 : <Larry> reminder: it's a Niven stasis field you've been discussing. Someone else's might have different properties. And it's still fantasy.
2013-04-06 20:13:03 : <fredskuentz> hey, cavorite doesn't stop sound
2013-04-06 20:13:22 : <Lensman> *Gasp* Larry said a stasis field is fantasy!!!!
2013-04-06 20:13:27 : <Louis_Wu> I guess I missed the part about entropy continuing....
2013-04-06 20:13:32 : <Lensman> So much for the hard-SF label...
2013-04-06 20:14:07 : <Louis_Wu> Lensman: stasis is an alien tech; doesnt mean its not possible
2013-04-06 20:14:11 : <sean> anything other than non-fiction is fantasy. then you get to pic your sub-label.
2013-04-06 20:14:34 : <Hippy> Good point, Sean
2013-04-06 20:14:42 : <Lensman> I didn't say it's not possible. Sounds like Larry did, tho.
2013-04-06 20:15:10 : <Larry> a friend (Tom Digby) showed me that a stasis field (MY variety) can't be made consistent.
2013-04-06 20:15:22 : <Lensman> Louis: Are you arguing that entropy doesn't continue because time is slowed down?
2013-04-06 20:15:35 : <Louis_Wu> Larry: Not even internally (within the field)....?
2013-04-06 20:15:46 : <sean> i wish i had more to add to the cavorite conversation but it has been so long since i read it that i can barely remember it.
2013-04-06 20:15:52 : <Lensman> Larry: Okay, what's not consistant about it? (I know I'm gonna regret asking...)
2013-04-06 20:16:04 : <Hippy> Is that the ten light years of wire in a stasis field one? How the far end violates relativity?
2013-04-06 20:16:22 : <Louis_Wu> Lens: Nope; just thought that a stasis field stopped time, and concluded that meant entropy as well
2013-04-06 20:16:53 : <Larry> Digby described a thought experiment. Run a wire ten light years long. Put a stasis field around it. Now jerk one end. What happens at the other end.? When?
2013-04-06 20:17:10 : <Lensman> Louis: I thought perhaps you were arguing that slowing entropy wasn't any more possible than stopping it. Which might be a good argument.
2013-04-06 20:17:42 : <Hippy> Well, what if the wire is ten feet long? Wouldn't the same thing (wahtever happens) be true for that, too?
may have buried himself again?
2013-04-06 20:18:24 : <Hippy> Oops. Didn't mean that as a question
2013-04-06 20:18:30 : <Louis_Wu> What happens at the other end? Nothing; the field stops any motion ( I think )
2013-04-06 20:18:45 : <dmac44> My understanding is that entropy is an increase in disorder (in a system). If you slow time you slow the rate of change of that disorder (i.e., entropy) all other things being equal.
2013-04-06 20:18:56 : <sean> the big question there is how the heck are you going to extrude 10 light years of wire. seems the tech there would be on par with a dyson sphere around a galaxy or at least a small globular cluster
2013-04-06 20:18:57 : <Larry> I half-remember: there are two aspects to inertia, and nobody can figure out why they match. Maybe they don't...and the resistance of mass to motion can be made variable. Hey, I was young.
2013-04-06 20:19:21 : <Lensman> Re the lightyears long varible-sword: Well, that's a good point. You'd have to stipulate that the stasis field is carried in the fine structure of the universe, and that movement couldn't be propogated faster than lightspeed.
2013-04-06 20:19:42 : <dmac44> Sean: You get a cat, put it in a box .... :)
2013-04-06 20:19:57 : <sean> lol
2013-04-06 20:20:07 : <Lensman> Hippy: Sure. It's just that it's a lot more noticable if it's very long.
2013-04-06 20:20:22 : <Hippy> Ah, good. I got that bit
2013-04-06 20:20:23 : <Louis_Wu> Well, the *information* about what happens at the other end will take 10 years to observe so there is no violation
2013-04-06 20:20:24 : <NickE> you dont need to, cats get in boxes, its law of nature
2013-04-06 20:20:34 : <Lensman> dmac: re disorder: Yes.
2013-04-06 20:21:17 : <Lensman> The stasis field doesn't stop you from moving the entire object inside the stasis field. If it did, you couldn't wave a variable-sword around.
2013-04-06 20:21:45 : <fredskuentz> Louis, the problem is, you wiggle the wire. The other end, 10 light years away, wiggles simultaneously.
2013-04-06 20:21:54 : <fredskuentz> Bam, you have FTL communication.
2013-04-06 20:22:07 : <Hippy> But the long wire can't be 'whipped' like a bullwhip because its shape can't change
2013-04-06 20:22:12 : <Louis_Wu> fred: How do you know it wiggles....? :)
2013-04-06 20:22:13 : <Lensman> The real problem is gonna be generating a field that runs for 10 lightyears!
2013-04-06 20:22:23 : <fredskuentz> send morse code
2013-04-06 20:22:25 : <Louis_Wu> Lens: Futz....yeah.
2013-04-06 20:22:30 : <fredskuentz> the guy on the other end wiggles it back
2013-04-06 20:22:42 : <Louis_Wu> fred: You won't know for 20 years :)
2013-04-06 20:22:52 : <Lensman> Yes, Fred has explained what the problem is. Violates causality in an Einsteinian universe.
2013-04-06 20:23:02 : <fredskuentz> You don't NEED a 10 YR length except for demonstration purposes
2013-04-06 20:23:18 : <fredskuentz> any length of stasis field is violating causality
2013-04-06 20:23:36 : <fredskuentz> of course, nobody's actually tried this :)
2013-04-06 20:23:50 : <fredskuentz> maybe that's NOT how it works, and we're still good
2013-04-06 20:23:55 : <Lensman> It only violates causality if it propogates movement at FTL speeds. Not if propogation is slower.
2013-04-06 20:24:03 : <fredskuentz> yes
2013-04-06 20:24:10 : <Hippy> However, if the far end moves instantly, you have some explaining to do. So, let's say the other end can predict the movement and thus avoids violating causality
2013-04-06 20:24:19 : <dmac44> The stasis field acts as it's own subatomic particle on a marco scale so if it was a quzntum effect Digby's thought experiment might not hold.
2013-04-06 20:24:21 : <fredskuentz> the assumption Larry's friend made was that it's instantaneous
2013-04-06 20:24:23 : <fredskuentz> and that's bad
2013-04-06 20:24:32 : <fredskuentz> but I don't know that that's a valid assumption in the first place
Stasis Fields and Wire: Fun Fun Fun!
2013-04-06 20:24:57 : <fredskuentz> given that it's not really a stasis field, as you said, it's a 'time slows down really far' field
2013-04-06 20:25:14 : <Lensman> In RINGWORLD'S CHILDREN we learn it takes time for a stasis field to take effect. Perhaps there is a slight delay in propoagting movement along its length, too.
2013-04-06 20:25:23 : <fredskuentz> yes
2013-04-06 20:25:41 : <Hippy> Isn't that in World of Ptavvs?
2013-04-06 20:25:42 : <fredskuentz> I see no reason that a stasis field couldn't be slightly compressible
2013-04-06 20:25:45 : <NickE> the time for a field to take effect dates from WOP
2013-04-06 20:25:48 : <Louis_Wu> lens: Magnify that 'slight delay' over 10 light years distance....
2013-04-06 20:25:49 : <fredskuentz> given that time is passing inside
2013-04-06 20:25:50 : <Lensman> Yes, the obvious assumption is that it's instantaneous. And I pointed out we can make a different assumption.
2013-04-06 20:25:51 : <NickE> bingo
2013-04-06 20:26:18 : <Lensman> Exactly... "slightly compressible". That solves the problem.
2013-04-06 20:26:20 : <Hippy> Thanks
2013-04-06 20:27:32 : <Lensman> Hippy: Yes, I didn't explain that well. In RC, the Kzinti warships are destroyed by the Superthermal laser because their stasis fields don't activate as quickly as did the Puppeteer-built one protecting the /Liar/.
2013-04-06 20:27:50 : <Hippy> Oh, yes. I remeember that now
2013-04-06 20:27:58 : <fredskuentz> That doesn't mean it's a problem inherent to the stasis field though
2013-04-06 20:28:10 : <fredskuentz> the Hindmost says it's just that Kzinti have lousy software
2013-04-06 20:28:24 : <Lensman> Fred: Yes, I was wrong, I take it back. Stupid Kzinti!
2013-04-06 20:28:49 : <Lensman> I was grasping at straws, you have a good explanation.
2013-04-06 20:29:24 : <sean> ringworld laser. Larry, did you take the idea from doc smith?
2013-04-06 20:29:32 : <Louis_Wu> You don't need a stasis field; just tug or pull on a 10 light year thread.....
2013-04-06 20:30:33 : <Larry> Superthermal laser: I think I got the idea from Dan Alderson. I knew what I wanted, and he put a name to it.
2013-04-06 20:30:49 : <Lensman> Louis: Doesn't work. Objects have "solid" form because of electrostatic fields. And those fields are propogated at lightspeed, never faster. Pull on the thread, and even if it's absolutely non-elastic, it will still stretch.
2013-04-06 20:30:54 : <sean> just wondered.
2013-04-06 20:31:31 : <Lensman> I think Sean is referring to the "Sunbeam" in one of the later LENSMEN books.
2013-04-06 20:32:16 : <Hippy> Ah, that was the bit I couldn't remember. The electrostatic fields. If you view the stasis field as one electromagnetic field. . .er. . .someting happens
2013-04-06 20:32:21 : <Larry> "Sunbeam" is news to me. I never gave the Lensman series proper attention.
2013-04-06 20:33:01 : <Lensman> I don't really understand how the Sunbeam worked, but they turned the whole Solar system into a giant vacuum tube, and somehow used that to concentrate the Sun's light in a specific narrow direction. Not a laser, but at that intensity... who cares?
2013-04-06 20:33:07 : <sean> doc smith replaced the asteroid belt with collectors or control things. cant remember to do about the same and the ringworld hex grid
2013-04-06 20:33:48 : <sean> similar but definitely different
2013-04-06 20:34:11 : <Lensman> Yeah, plated astroids over with metal grids like in a vacuum tube. As I said, I don't understand how it worked.
2013-04-06 20:34:30 : <sean> tis been a long time since i have read the lensman stuff
2013-04-06 20:35:55 : <sean> but its job was to blast mobile planets as i recall, not a meteor defense unless you think of an incoming planet as an extremely large meteor ;)
2013-04-06 20:36:03 : "Louis_Wu" left the channel.
2013-04-06 20:37:04 : <Lensman> From THE UNIVERSES OF E.E. SMITH: "The sunbeam uses the solar system as a vacuum tube, with asteroid belts and planets as grids and plates, and concentrates practically the whole energy output of a star into a single deadly ray."
2013-04-06 20:37:49 : <Lensman> Yeah, the job of the Sunbeam was to melt the surface of mobile planets, to destroy their Bergenholms so they were no longer mobile.
2013-04-06 20:38:04 : <Hippy> Sad for you if you need some of that energy for your ecosystem
2013-04-06 20:38:20 : <Lensman> It was only used for a few seconds or minutes.
2013-04-06 20:38:44 : <Lensman> But yeah, how do you turn it on and off? Lotta unanswered questions there.
2013-04-06 20:38:47 : <sean> sorry to switch topics but was just curious where the idea came from. Alderson has had some great ideas for the Niven Multiverse
2013-04-06 20:39:20 : <Hippy> Yes, you did him proud in Lucifers's Hammer, Larry
2013-04-06 20:39:52 : <Lensman> Question I have about the Ringworld superthermal laser: Was that something Larry envisioned when he wrote RINGWORLD, or was it added for R. ENGINEERS?
Solar System sized lasers. The ultimate hotfoot.
2013-04-06 20:42:03 : <Larry> it was added.
2013-04-06 20:42:56 : <Lensman> If you had a Rw superthermal laser, what could you use it for other than destroying enemy fleets?
2013-04-06 20:43:04 : <Larry> actually I used it in Ringworld, but couldn't describe it until Engineers and Dan.
2013-04-06 20:43:13 : <fredskuentz> incoming big stupid rocks
2013-04-06 20:43:35 : <sean> Larry, thats what I had assumed when you said that Dan gave a hand with it.
2013-04-06 20:44:00 : <Larry> You could use it to launch lightsails--in a slower than light universe--like the Pak thought they had.
2013-04-06 20:44:24 : <Lensman> Ah, the Motie probe.
2013-04-06 20:44:24 : <dmac44> Pretty tough lightsails.
2013-04-06 20:44:36 : <fredskuentz> Hmm. Wonder if the Outsiders every tried to sell FTL to the Pak.
2013-04-06 20:45:11 : <dmac44> I guess you'd make them out of ringworld material.
2013-04-06 20:45:18 : <Larry> I assumed the Outsiders didn't WANT the Pak to have FTL.
2013-04-06 20:45:21 : <fredskuentz> That's our new series. Known Space First Contact.
2013-04-06 20:45:22 : <dmac44> very thin
2013-04-06 20:45:36 : <Lensman> Pak protectors would never negotiate with the Outsiders long enough to buy anything.
2013-04-06 20:45:37 : <fredskuentz> Thrilling stories of the first time each of the various KS species met.
2013-04-06 20:45:47 : <fredskuentz> We've already got 2 or 3 of 'em ...
2013-04-06 20:45:59 : <sean> I would think that the fragile Outsiders would never let the Pak get close to them
2013-04-06 20:46:19 : <Lensman> Even if the Outsiders didn't realize how aggressive they are, I don't think that contract would ever happen.
2013-04-06 20:46:20 : <fredskuentz> But, Sean, how would they know 'til they try?
2013-04-06 20:47:15 : <sean> distant observation. the ram ship pak would never catch them with the ultra sublight drive of the Outsiders
2013-04-06 20:47:16 : <fredskuentz> The Outsiders probably met everybody first
2013-04-06 20:47:39 : <Lensman> First contact between Outsiders and Pak protectors: "We are the Outsiders, peaceful traders in information. We can sell you--" ZZZZZAP!
2013-04-06 20:48:06 : <fredskuentz> Followed shortly by the extermination of the Pak as a race.
2013-04-06 20:48:23 : <Hippy> I would think that, too
2013-04-06 20:48:44 : <Lensman> Whether or not the Outsiders survive the encounter, the negotiation needed before the sale ain't gonna happen.
2013-04-06 20:48:49 : <Larry> My assumption: the Outsiders confined the Pak to one planet. Until the Core went to Hell.
2013-04-06 20:49:04 : <dmac44> If the Outsiders can protect themselves from .9C stuff coming at them they can protect themselves from a few lasers, etc.
2013-04-06 20:49:40 : <sean> right dmac. and the Outsiders can go from 0-.9c in zero time
2013-04-06 20:49:47 : <sean> outrunning everything
2013-04-06 20:49:55 : <Lensman> Did the Outsiders actively confine the Pak? Blockade or whatever?
2013-04-06 20:50:07 : <fredskuentz> Does Ringworld's Children just have one Pak planet in the other great ocean, or multiples?
2013-04-06 20:50:23 : <Hippy> Multiples of the home planet
2013-04-06 20:50:25 : <Lensman> Multiples, Fred.
2013-04-06 20:50:26 : <sean> it says in protector that the Pak had mined a few close systems
2013-04-06 20:50:37 : <Larry> multiples, Fred.
2013-04-06 20:50:49 : <dmac44> Larry: If the Outsiders confined the Pak to one planet how did they get to Earth 2 milli8on years ago?
2013-04-06 20:51:02 : <Lensman> And there were at least a couple of expeditions from Pakhome to our arm of the galaxy. Maybe the Outsiders imposed a blockade later?
2013-04-06 20:51:37 : <Lensman> And the Ringworld expedition, too. A million years ago.
2013-04-06 20:52:07 : <NickE> (OT: watching Grimm and they had a Flash Mob :-)
2013-04-06 20:52:08 : <Larry> dmac, you're right. The Outsiders...mmm...may have reacted slowly. They're sparse, as Ed pointed out.
2013-04-06 20:52:35 : <dmac44> fair enough.
2013-04-06 20:52:54 : <Lensman> Ed's suppositions re the Outsiders do not match what's at the end of A GIFT FROM EARTH.
2013-04-06 20:53:20 : <Larry> ah well.
2013-04-06 20:53:34 : <Lensman> Ed admitted he overlooked that.
2013-04-06 20:53:54 : <sean> what has Ed been doing, btw? he hasnt been around.
2013-04-06 20:54:26 : <Lensman> Hard to keep a series written over such a long period of time entirely consistant.
2013-04-06 20:54:47 : <Larry> yes, Lens.
2013-04-06 20:55:07 : <fredskuentz> what did ed overlook?
2013-04-06 20:56:08 : <Hippy> That the Outsiders discoverd We Made It by following an Earth ramscoop, I assume
2013-04-06 20:56:11 : <Larry> Outsiders sold hyperdrive to We Made It at end of GIFT.
2013-04-06 20:56:27 : <Hippy> And that :)
2013-04-06 20:57:28 : <Lensman> No problem with Outsiders being sparse.
2013-04-06 20:58:08 : <Hippy> I have to presume Outsiders are sparse because I can't afford to find out
2013-04-06 20:58:24 : <Lensman> But Ed has them confined to just a small part of the galaxy. GIFT says they're in every arm of the galaxy. Ed also has Siggy claiming they're not an ancient and powerful race. I don't buy it.
2013-04-06 20:59:17 : <Lensman> Of course, I'm free to think that's just Siggys speculations... but Ed doesn't agree.
2013-04-06 20:59:19 : <Hippy> How would he know unless he asked them - and if they lie in exchange for money, how can we trust them?
2013-04-06 20:59:38 : <Larry> take your choice. Ed's got inconsistencies, but so do I.
2013-04-06 21:00:38 : <Lensman> Hippy: Well, you'll have to read JUGGLER OF WORLDS to see how Siggy came up with his reasoning. Seems pretty shaky to me, but Larry gets to set the rules!
2013-04-06 21:01:06 : <Lensman> I mean, Siggy's reasoning is what Ed came up with, but Larry gets veto power whenever he wants.
2013-04-06 21:01:10 : <Jim> Not every character has to have complete knowledge at all times; sometimes characters talk out of their arse.
2013-04-06 21:01:25 : <Hippy> It's on my shelf waiting my attention (well, figuratively. It's actually in a box in a storage place.)
2013-04-06 21:01:42 : <Larry> yeah. What Jim said.
2013-04-06 21:01:48 : <Lensman> Well, I shall say no more to avoid spoilers.
2013-04-06 21:02:26 : <Larry> my lunchtime has arrived. Fare you well.
2013-04-06 21:02:49 : <Lensman> Bye Larry! Thanks for dropping in.
2013-04-06 21:02:51 : <dmac44> bye Larry
2013-04-06 21:02:52 : <Hippy> "Bye, larry. This has been a great chat today
2013-04-06 21:03:09 : <Jim> fare thee well
2013-04-06 21:03:14 : <Jim> bye
2013-04-06 21:03:27 : <gofffan> Bye Larry!
2013-04-06 21:03:34 : "Larry" left the channel.
2013-04-06 21:03:35 : <fredskuentz> This just posted to my Nautilus group:
2013-04-06 21:03:38 : <fredskuentz> FOr anyone in or near the San Fernando Valley tomorrow (Sunday, April 7), Larry Niven will be at the Paperback Book Fair on Sepulveda Blvd.
2013-04-06 21:03:38 : <fredskuentz> http://www.la-vintage-paperback-show.com/
2013-04-06 21:03:38 : <fredskuentz> There will be over 40 authors there including Jerry Pournelle, George Clayton Johnson (Star Trek - 'Mantrap', Logan's Run), and Divid Gerrold (Star Trek - 'The Trouble with Tribbles').
2013-04-06 21:03:47 : <fredskuentz> Missed him by *that* much
2013-04-06 21:04:27 : <gofffan> By a second!
2013-04-06 21:04:28 : <fredskuentz> and
2013-04-06 21:04:29 : <Hippy> I wonder if I can get a plane ticket in time?
2013-04-06 21:04:30 : <fredskuentz> "I loved The Mote In God's Eye. Very cerebral and well thought out. He is a genius."
2013-04-06 21:04:39 : <fredskuentz> rats :(
2013-04-06 21:04:49 : <Lensman> The end of GIFT is written in third person omniscient. Siggy's speculations are all first person. I think I'm free to asume Siggy was wrong from start to finish about the Outsiders.
2013-04-06 21:05:09 : <fredskuentz> As much as Siggy's brain patterns have been altered
2013-04-06 21:05:21 : <fredskuentz> I think we're free to assume he's wrong about what he had for lunch
2013-04-06 21:05:28 : <Lensman> LOL
2013-04-06 21:06:23 : <Jim> wtf
2013-04-06 21:06:46 : <Lensman> Hippy: Message received. Decoding in progress...
2013-04-06 21:07:12 : <Hippy> Oh, did that work? Just testing. I was trying to alert Fred
2013-04-06 21:07:26 : <Jim> Has anyone seen Jim Carrey's anti-gun video? From the same one who brought use anti-vax panic.
2013-04-06 21:07:43 : <Lensman> Haven't.
2013-04-06 21:08:01 : <Hippy> I might have to look that up. (And you have reminded me to get into tax mode)
2013-04-06 21:08:09 : <Jim> I saw the Reason TV response.
2013-04-06 21:08:20 : <fredskuentz> Alert me?
2013-04-06 21:08:28 : <Jim> I have not done my taxes yet.
2013-04-06 21:08:34 : <Hippy> Yes, to that private chat window
2013-04-06 21:10:54 : <Hippy> Good. That's that sorted. Now, who is on Skype apart from Sean?
2013-04-06 21:12:08 : <fredskuentz> Knot eye
CrazyEddy
2013-04-06 21:13:11 : <Jim> .weather WELK
2013-04-06 21:13:13 : <Outsider> Clear â˜¼, 24.8â„‰ (-4â„ƒ), 30.01in (1013mb), Light breeze 5kt (â†‘) - CYVC 21:00Z
2013-04-06 21:15:27 : <Lensman> I've successfully resisted using Skype so far, altho I've been invited to many times.
2013-04-06 21:16:42 : <Jim> I would need a major internet service upgrade to use Skype or anything like it.
2013-04-06 21:16:43 : <Lensman> Currently sound is disabled on this system even if I wanted to Skype.
2013-04-06 21:18:12 : <Lensman> If I did Skype it would be voice only. I will not inflict an image of me sitting in my underwear upon y'all...
2013-04-06 21:19:50 : <Hippy> I have all your old moveies anyway, Lens
2013-04-06 21:24:52 : <Jim> movies?
2013-04-06 21:25:03 : <gofffan> ROR LATER ENJOYMENT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k4ONpj0HrY
2013-04-06 21:25:07 : <gofffan> FOR
2013-04-06 21:26:25 : <fredskuentz> that thing is so strangely built
2013-04-06 21:26:35 : <Jim> yes
2013-04-06 21:26:56 : <fredskuentz> the sequence where the selenites take off all the straight parts leaving an entire sphere underneath .... gives me a headache
2013-04-06 21:27:47 : <Hippy> But it's a polyhedron anyway
2013-04-06 21:28:24 : <fredskuentz> it's a bunch of individual girders with rounded undersides set to a sphere
2013-04-06 21:28:33 : <fredskuentz> I can't think of a harder way to make that
2013-04-06 21:28:59 : <Hippy> 19th century technology
2013-04-06 21:29:02 : <Jim> computer milling machine would be required
2013-04-06 21:29:11 : <fredskuentz> and yet it wasn't
2013-04-06 21:29:12 : <Jim> computerized
2013-04-06 21:29:27 : <fredskuentz> they actually BUILT the full size one that way
2013-04-06 21:29:46 : <Jim> it must have taken a long time
2013-04-06 21:30:03 : <Hippy> I will take it as read that this would be difficult to do
2013-04-06 21:30:04 : <dmac44> I'm heading out, talk to you all next month.
2013-04-06 21:30:09 : <fredskuentz> bye dmac
2013-04-06 21:30:14 : <Hippy> Seey you, dmac
2013-04-06 21:30:17 : <Jim> bye, next month
2013-04-06 21:30:29 : "dmac44" left the channel.
2013-04-06 21:30:38 : <Jim> .weather WEKN
2013-04-06 21:30:39 : <Outsider> No ICAO code found, sorry
2013-04-06 21:30:53 : <fredskuentz> .weather WKRP
2013-04-06 21:30:55 : <Outsider> Clear â˜¼, 64.4â„‰ (18â„ƒ), 30.09in (1016mb), Light breeze 6kt (â†‘) - KEKN 20:51Z
2013-04-06 21:31:00 : <fredskuentz> LOL!
2013-04-06 21:31:10 : <Jim> in Cincinatti
2013-04-06 21:31:32 : <Hippy> Wow!
2013-04-06 21:31:51 : <Hippy> Nice weather there, too
2013-04-06 21:32:26 : <Jim> What is odd is that WKRP in Cincinatti would be so dated, if done today.
2013-04-06 21:32:42 : <Hippy> Yep!
2013-04-06 21:32:45 : <Jim> Radio stations now do zero local music programming.
2013-04-06 21:33:07 : <Hippy> But all self-contained shows are dated. I mean, if they have no character arc
2013-04-06 21:33:16 : <Jim> Talk and sports radio are where the local personalities reside.
2013-04-06 21:33:36 : <Jim> now
2013-04-06 21:33:53 : <Hippy> I've always wondered if that was because the royalties they needed to pay for music became too expensive
AFK briefly
2013-04-06 21:39:46 : <fredskuentz> Well, Gofffan, we finally got you a chat with Larry on Larry topics. :)
2013-04-06 21:39:59 : <Jim> yup
2013-04-06 21:40:54 : <gofffan> How great was that? He really delved in.
2013-04-06 21:41:27 : <fredskuentz> hope you enjoyed it
has returned
2013-04-06 21:41:50 : <gofffan> You bet. I like the way he says, "I always thought it was the Outsiders." Like someone else wrote it.
2013-04-06 21:42:04 : <Jim> .weather 26241
2013-04-06 21:42:05 : <Outsider> LFLU: no such ICAO code, or no NOAA data
2013-04-06 21:42:14 : <Jim> check
2013-04-06 21:44:13 : <fredskuentz> good :)
2013-04-06 21:44:16 : <Hippy> Now, let's see if I'm experiencing Orlando's weather correctly
2013-04-06 21:44:22 : <Hippy> .weather 32826
2013-04-06 21:44:24 : <Outsider> Cloudy, 73.4â„‰ (23â„ƒ), 30.08in (1015mb), Moderate breeze 15kt (â†‘) - KORL 21:26Z
2013-04-06 21:44:36 : <fredskuentz> .weather 85018
2013-04-06 21:44:37 : <Outsider> Cloudy, 86.0â„‰ (30â„ƒ), 29.86in (1008mb), Light air 3kt (â†») - KPHX 20:51Z
2013-04-06 21:45:04 : <Hippy> I'd say 'hazy' not cloudy, but they got the breeze right
2013-04-06 21:45:20 : <fredskuentz> I haven't even turned of the alarm yet
2013-04-06 21:45:27 : <fredskuentz> no idea what's it's like out there
2013-04-06 21:46:17 : <Hippy> Hey, that circular arrow is pretty neat. How do you do that?
2013-04-06 21:47:04 : <fredskuentz> (â†‘)
2013-04-06 21:47:07 : <fredskuentz> you mean that?
2013-04-06 21:47:38 : <Hippy> No, the one on Phoenix's weathre report
2013-04-06 21:48:08 : <fredskuentz> (â†»)
2013-04-06 21:48:12 : <fredskuentz> you mean that?
2013-04-06 21:48:18 : <Hippy> Yep!
2013-04-06 21:48:22 : <fredskuentz> no idea
2013-04-06 21:48:32 : <Hippy> LOL
2013-04-06 21:48:38 : <fredskuentz> I copy pasted it :D
2013-04-06 21:48:50 : <Hippy> Oh :)
2013-04-06 21:49:14 : <Hippy> Well, that's one more mystery to solve
2013-04-06 21:49:36 : <gofffan> Box of chocolates for sure.
2013-04-06 21:51:07 : <fredskuentz> I don't see it in my keyboard viewer
2013-04-06 21:51:20 : <fredskuentz> and copy pasting it into google yields no results
2013-04-06 21:51:23 : <fredskuentz> whch is ... odd
2013-04-06 21:52:07 : <fredskuentz> okay, I found it
AFK to ehlp carry stuff
2013-04-06 21:52:23 : <fredskuentz> now I just have to figure out how to tell you what to push to get it
2013-04-06 21:52:32 : <fredskuentz> there are several of them
2013-04-06 21:52:45 : <fredskuentz> â†»
2013-04-06 21:52:53 : <fredskuentz> âŸ³
2013-04-06 21:53:00 : <fredskuentz> â¤¾
2013-04-06 21:53:05 : <fredskuentz> â¤¿
2013-04-06 21:53:12 : <fredskuentz> âŸ²
2013-04-06 21:53:28 : <Jim> â†»
2013-04-06 21:54:02 : <fredskuentz> â†º
2013-04-06 21:55:11 : <fredskuentz> I have a character viewer that shows me these things and allows me to invoke them, but I see no way to find out what the keystroke (if any) would be
2013-04-06 21:55:35 : <fredskuentz> âž½
2013-04-06 21:55:47 : <fredskuentz> it must have a couple hundred arrows
2013-04-06 21:56:23 : <gofffan> just in case
2013-04-06 21:56:33 : <fredskuentz> â‡§
2013-04-06 21:56:43 : <gofffan> exactly
2013-04-06 21:56:46 : <Jim> .weather KEKN
2013-04-06 21:56:47 : <Outsider> Clear â˜¼, 64.4â„‰ (18â„ƒ), 30.09in (1016mb), Gentle breeze 7kt (â†‘) - KEKN 21:51Z
2013-04-06 21:56:56 : <fredskuentz> âœ„
2013-04-06 21:56:59 : <gofffan> .weather10003
2013-04-06 21:57:00 : <Outsider> Try .weather London, for example?
2013-04-06 21:57:15 : <Jim> that is the correct call letters for the Elkins, WV airport
2013-04-06 21:57:49 : <fredskuentz> ðŸ˜
2013-04-06 21:57:52 : <fredskuentz> wow
2013-04-06 21:58:00 : <fredskuentz> ðŸ’€
2013-04-06 21:58:08 : <fredskuentz> ðŸ’‹
2013-04-06 21:58:15 : <fredskuentz> ðŸ’©
2013-04-06 21:58:23 : <gofffan> .weatherKWO35
2013-04-06 21:58:24 : <Outsider> Try .weather London, for example?
2013-04-06 21:58:33 : <fredskuentz> ðŸŒ€
2013-04-06 21:58:33 : <gofffan> .weathernewyork
2013-04-06 21:58:34 : <Outsider> Try .weather London, for example?
2013-04-06 21:58:41 : <Jim> .weather KWO35
2013-04-06 21:58:42 : <Outsider> No ICAO code found, sorry
2013-04-06 21:58:43 : <gofffan> .weather new york
2013-04-06 21:58:44 : <Outsider> Clear â˜¼, 51.8â„‰ (11â„ƒ), 30.26in (1021mb), Moderate breeze 12kt (â†‘) - KTEB 21:51Z
2013-04-06 21:58:53 : <gofffan> cool
2013-04-06 21:58:56 : <fredskuentz> ðŸ‡ºðŸ‡¸
2013-04-06 21:59:02 : <Jim> .weather KO35
2013-04-06 21:59:03 : <Outsider> No ICAO code found, sorry
2013-04-06 21:59:06 : <gofffan> John Lennon glases
2013-04-06 22:01:42 : <gofffan> Well fellows, I've been playing partial hookey from work. Will sign off for now. Great conversation. See ya around ...
2013-04-06 22:01:53 : <Jim> bye goffan
2013-04-06 22:01:57 : <Jim> fare thee well
2013-04-06 22:02:07 : "gofffan" left the channel.
2013-04-06 22:10:11 : <Hippy> And I< too, must adjourn. I've been summoned to dinner and a movie
2013-04-06 22:10:35 : <Hippy> I think the movie will be 'Warm Bodies' but the dinner is, so far, a mystery
2013-04-06 22:10:50 : <Hippy> See you all next month
2013-04-06 22:12:19 : <Jim> bye hippy
2013-04-06 22:18:54 : <Hippy> 'Bye, Jim
2013-04-06 22:18:58 : "Hippy" left the channel.
2013-04-06 22:33:30 : <NickE> night
2013-04-06 22:33:37 : "NickE" left the channel.
2013-04-06 22:34:07 : <Jim> And I will leave as well.
2013-04-06 22:34:11 : <Jim> bye
2013-04-06 22:34:41 : "Jim" left the channel.