Chat Log: September 6th 2008

Sep 06 11:59:01 * Jim (~chatzilla@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 11:59:19 <Jim> Hi

Sep 06 12:00:03 * nedry has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Sep 06 12:00:06 <Jim> Hi

Sep 06 12:01:11 * nedry (~nedry@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 12:02:27 <Jim> Hi nedry

Sep 06 12:38:28 * bandersnatch (~uwe-klein@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 12:38:57 <bandersnatch> ping

Sep 06 12:39:58 <Jim> pomg

Sep 06 13:43:20 <Jim> pong

Sep 06 13:46:34 <bandersnatch> rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring

Sep 06 13:48:29 <Jim> hello

Sep 06 14:18:38 * nedry_ (~nedry@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 14:18:38 * nedry has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Sep 06 14:27:55 * Lensman (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 14:30:35 <Lensman> Anybody here?

Sep 06 14:33:51 <nedry_> I'm here

Sep 06 14:34:06 * nedry_ is now known as Mr_Hands

Sep 06 14:37:34 <Lensman> Hi Ned.

Sep 06 14:38:15 <Lensman> Oooooo nooooo!

Sep 06 14:52:30 <bandersnatch> Hands, where are your fingers?

Sep 06 14:55:55 <Lensman> What have you done with Mr. Bill *this* time?

Sep 06 14:55:56 <Jim> I'm here now

Sep 06 14:56:18 <Lensman> Welcome Jim.

Sep 06 15:11:02 <Jim> I thought that the chat would start by now. It is past 1500 hours on the east coast; should it not be past 1200 hours on the west coast?

Sep 06 15:13:04 <Lensman> It is past time for the chat to start, yes.

Sep 06 15:13:21 <Lensman> So start chatting!

Sep 06 15:13:44 <Lensman> How are you weathering the er, weather on the East coast?

Sep 06 15:13:51 <Jim> We need a topic.

Sep 06 15:14:23 <Jim> Also, it does not seem like a real chat, if Carol of Houston is not around.

Sep 06 15:14:41 <Lensman> Hopefully the Dragon will fly in.

Sep 06 15:15:02 <Lensman> Topic. Well, what will be the plot of /Inferno II/?

Sep 06 15:15:32 <Jim> I don't know.

Sep 06 15:15:32 <Lensman> Do you think it will be Allan Carpenter again? Or a new protagonist?

Sep 06 15:16:01 <Lensman> Or was his first name Allan/Allen?

Sep 06 15:20:10 <Lensman> Looks like no reviews yet for /Escape from Hell/.

Sep 06 15:23:19 <Lensman> Well, this topic is going nowhere. Someone else suggest a topic!

Sep 06 15:25:31 <Lensman> Why choose the lesser evil? Cthulhu in 2008!

Sep 06 15:25:48 * Dan (~vila@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 15:26:03 <Dan> Greetings, Programs!

Sep 06 15:26:29 <Jim> That is the same argument that is stated in the e-mails that I get from the LP.

Sep 06 15:26:36 <Jim> Hi, Dan

Sep 06 15:26:51 <Jim> Who is Cthulhu?

Sep 06 15:27:00 <Lensman> "LP" ?

Sep 06 15:27:14 <Lensman> 8-0 Who is Cthulhu ?

Sep 06 15:27:22 <Jim> Libertarian Party United States

Sep 06 15:27:57 <Dan> Sorry I'm late, but we had to take the trash off to the landfill and then stop by my parent's place to feed the dog & cat. The 'rents are off to Detroit for a vacation.

Sep 06 15:28:41 <Lensman> Great Cthulhu is the greatest of the Old Ones, who ruled the Earth long ago. Great Cthulhu lies sleeping in the island of R'lyeh, which lies beneath the sea. When the stars are right, it will rise and so will he, to regain his rightful place as ruler of the world.

Sep 06 15:28:55 <Dan> Cthulhu can be thought of as the Elder God version of the Blue Screen of Death.

Sep 06 15:29:04 <Lensman> Cf H.P. Lovecraft's "Call of Cthulhu" and many other stories.

Sep 06 15:29:37 <Jim> So Cthulhu is fictional - not mythical.

Sep 06 15:30:01 <Dan> Jesus saves, Allah instructs, Buddha enlightens... Cthulhu thinks you'll taste good with ketchup.

Sep 06 15:30:35 <Jim> Dan, that would make a good T-shirt.

Sep 06 15:30:45 <Lensman>

Sep 06 15:30:45 <Dan> It already is one, I think.

Sep 06 15:31:27 <Lensman> Fictional!! Oh, we have a doubter here. Nyarlathotep, take him!

Sep 06 15:31:49 <Lensman> "Cthulhu saves... in case he's hungry later!" :D

Sep 06 15:33:37 <Dan> The Cthulhu Mythos stories are my favorite HP Lovecraft stories. Plus, there are other stories in the Mythos that were written by Lovecraft's friends.

Sep 06 15:37:58 <Jim> If no one can think of a topic, we can always talk about Stargate Atlanta be canceled. We can talk about the science errors in SGA.

Sep 06 15:38:08 <Lensman> Yes to all that. Plus I've played Chaosium's RPG "Call of Cthulhu". Even ran a "Cthulhu by Gaslight" campaign briefly, but my players weren't into that millieu.

Sep 06 15:39:30 <Lensman> If you've never read any Lovecraft, you've missed some fine entertainment. I'm not into horror much, but Lovecraft-- especially the Cthulhu mythos stories-- are great stuff.

Sep 06 15:40:24 <Lensman> Okay, so what's wrong with Stargate Atlantis? Aside from the fact that a wormhole is both microscopic in size and only exists for an instant.

Sep 06 15:41:47 <Jim> The Wraith are really a being from the horror genre and not from science fiction.

Sep 06 15:41:51 <Lensman> And the fact that if they actually had enuff power to force one open to macroscopic size and hold it open for minutes, they wouldn't have to worry about any power problem!

Sep 06 15:43:01 <Lensman> I never was too impressed with the Wraiths as villains. The System Lords were much more interesting, and that concept was much better developed and explored.

Sep 06 15:43:37 <Jim> How much power would be required to open a wormhole to a diameter of 3 meters and hold it open for 38 minutes?

Sep 06 15:44:01 <Dan> Lots.

Sep 06 15:44:11 <Lensman> LOL lots indeed.

Sep 06 15:44:53 <Jim> I agree that the System Lords were much better villains that the Wraith.

Sep 06 15:45:52 <Lensman> I only watch SGA to see what Rodney is up to this week. He's like an exaggerated version of myself.

Sep 06 15:45:56 <Dan> I'm guessing that it's take more energy than our sun puts out in a week.

Sep 06 15:46:32 <Jim> Apparently, David Hewlett is popular with the women at conventions.

Sep 06 15:46:37 <Dan> But I'm probably underestimating by a couple of orders of magnitude.

Sep 06 15:47:29 <Lensman> I dunno... our sun puts out an awful lot of energy! But I have no informed opinion on just how much energy it would take.

Sep 06 15:48:39 <Mr_Hands> I"m being forced to watch x-factor. help me

Sep 06 15:48:58 <Mr_Hands> after three months of being forced to watch Big Brother. I can feel my IQ dropping

Sep 06 15:49:01 <Jim> What is X-factor?

Sep 06 15:49:18 <Lensman> I wouldn't be at all surprised to find it took more energy than the Earth receives from the sun, tho.

Sep 06 15:49:19 <Mr_Hands> it's a song contest.

Sep 06 15:49:32 <Lensman> So why can't you change the channel?

Sep 06 15:49:33 <Mr_Hands> singing in public should require a license

Sep 06 15:49:46 <Mr_Hands> because my wife is watching it.

Sep 06 15:50:30 <Lensman> Hmmm seems to me you're at your computer, not watching TV.

Sep 06 15:50:53 <Lensman> Surely there's something good on the 'net.

Sep 06 15:51:00 <Jim> I suppose the computer is within ear-reach of the TV.

Sep 06 15:51:33 <Mr_Hands> I have three computers in here... four actually. the linux server, my mac (which has a tv usb tuner, this pc and my wife's pc)

Sep 06 15:51:37 <Lensman> Try

Sep 06 15:51:41 <Mr_Hands> she's playing LOTR online and watching big brother

Sep 06 15:51:43 <Mr_Hands> the mac is the tv

Sep 06 15:52:37 <Lensman> Well, just think of how it might be worse. She might be a fan of "American Idol" !

Sep 06 15:53:19 <Mr_Hands> it's a similar thing. we trade off tv shows. I made her watch some show about space stuff earlier. she hates space stuff

Sep 06 15:53:42 <Mr_Hands> thinks all the money for nasa should be spent on knitting patterns or poured down some sort of socialist hell hole.

Sep 06 15:55:29 <Jim> NPR had a story about a wife divorcing her husband because he became a Republican.

Sep 06 15:55:52 <Mr_Hands> hah! I've been mugged twice, but so far I am still a Democrat.

Sep 06 15:56:20 <Lensman> Let a woman in your life / And you're up against a wall / Make a plan and you will find / That she has something else in mind / And so rather than do either you do / Something else that neither likes at all / You want to talk of Keats and Milton / She only wants to talk of love / You go to see a play or ballet / And spend it searching for her glove / Let a woman in your life / And you invite eternal strife

Sep 06 15:56:53 <Lensman> From "My Fair Lady". Higgins is, of course, a mysogynist... and a misanthrope.

Sep 06 15:57:04 <Mr_Hands> The older I get, the more sexist I become

Sep 06 15:57:14 <Dan> You quote thusly whilst my wife is making dinner for me, even though she feels unwell today?

Sep 06 15:57:14 <Jim> Probably gay too.

Sep 06 15:57:47 <Dan> :)

Sep 06 15:58:10 <Lensman> There's some speculation that Higgins was gay, too. But with Pickering? Not a pretty mental image!

Sep 06 15:58:27 <Mr_Hands> that's nasty.

Sep 06 15:59:20 <Lensman> I dunno, I'm not married, but it seems like if there are at least two TVs in the house, a couple should be able to do what they want separately, and join together only to do things they *both* like. If there are too few of the latter... well then why didja get married in the first place?

Sep 06 16:01:35 <Lensman> Ah yes, the "We should use the money 'wasted' on NASA for the war on poverty" argument. Because, you know, if we throw *enough* money into the war on poverty, we'll win! Oh, wait...

Sep 06 16:01:38 <Mr_Hands> heh. it's about compromise and not kiling one another. We're back to watching something I want to watch now. The danger is over. If you are too much alike, what is there to argue about?

Sep 06 16:01:52 <Mr_Hands> The poor will always be with us.

Sep 06 16:02:12 <Lensman> Well, frankly, I don't see any point in arguing with someone who has that mind-set. They're not likely to be swayed by a rational argument anyway.

Sep 06 16:02:12 * EML (~EML@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 16:02:18 <Dan> Hiya, Ed.

Sep 06 16:02:25 <EML> Hi, ho.

Sep 06 16:02:30 <Jim> Hi, Ed.

Sep 06 16:02:36 <Mr_Hands> we don't argue about space stuff. I gave up on that 10 years ago

Sep 06 16:02:39 <Lensman> Welcome Ed!

Sep 06 16:02:40 <Mr_Hands> Hey Ed!

Sep 06 16:02:54 <Lensman> So what is new in Lerner land?

Sep 06 16:02:58 <EML> Do we have a theme today?

Sep 06 16:03:10 <Lensman> No. Please save us!

Sep 06 16:03:22 <EML> What's new? Well, Tropical Storm Hanna. Lotsa rain.

Sep 06 16:03:41 <Lensman> The East Coast is now the Wet Coast? :)

Sep 06 16:03:55 <EML> Yup.

Sep 06 16:03:59 <Dan> That one hasn't reached here in Georgia yet. It's just cloudy and humid here.

Sep 06 16:04:12 <Lensman> So where are you, Ed?

Sep 06 16:04:19 <Jim> Dan, same here in WV.

Sep 06 16:04:25 <Mr_Hands> It's been raining for a week, almost non stop

Sep 06 16:04:32 <EML> Dan, I think Hanna is past you. It hit in NC and is running up the coast toward New England.

Sep 06 16:04:44 <Lensman> It's been raining almost every day here, too... and I'm in Kansas!

Sep 06 16:05:02 <Mr_Hands> wow. loads of flooding... but I live on the side of a hill.

Sep 06 16:05:06 <EML> I'm in Virginia, west of DC.

Sep 06 16:05:22 <Jim> Lensman, your rains probably came from the west.

Sep 06 16:05:26 <Dan> Ah! I wondered what its present path was. I was hoping it'd move inland and swerve south towards Atlanta.

Sep 06 16:05:40 <Lensman> Are they boarding up windows and the like? Or is the danger just floodiing?

Sep 06 16:05:55 <EML> Well, Ike is next. And there's one coming after that.

Sep 06 16:06:25 <Lensman> Our rains almost always come from west-southwest, but a couple of days ago the clouds were moving east!

Sep 06 16:06:45 <Dan> We really need more rain here. Drought conditions are prevalent at the moment.

Sep 06 16:06:59 <EML> As to what (besides weather) is new, I've started a blog.

Sep 06 16:07:05 <Lensman> Be glad to send you some of ours.

Sep 06 16:07:13 <Lensman> Oh! URL please!

Sep 06 16:07:23 <Jim> Ed, Stargate Atlanta was canceled.

Sep 06 16:07:35 <EML>

Sep 06 16:07:37 <Lensman> I've been participating in the EEStor forum, but no real news there.

Sep 06 16:08:02 <Lensman> "SF and Nonsense" LOL

Sep 06 16:08:23 <EML> Jim: alas (but not surprising). The turnover in charaters this season didn't bode well.

Sep 06 16:08:25 <Mr_Hands> cool. can I link to that (from

Sep 06 16:08:44 <Lensman> Bookmarked under Blogs. Will read later!

Sep 06 16:09:17 <Dan> Bookmarking it under my "BlogFriends" folder.

Sep 06 16:09:24 <EML> Links cheerfully accepted. You can put in RSS 2.0 and Atom feeds, too, if that appeals to you.

Sep 06 16:09:48 <Mr_Hands> cool. I need to work on the darn thing. I haven't touched it for months.

Sep 06 16:09:52 <Lensman> Woman character on an episode of SGA last nite. I knew I'd seen the actress, couldn't place her. Then realized it was "Ezry Dax" from DS9!

Sep 06 16:10:23 <Lensman> Okay, who are you Mr. Hands?

Sep 06 16:10:25 <EML> I'm a few episodes behind on SGA. (TiVo is a wonderful thing.)

Sep 06 16:10:49 <Lensman> Chief Strike Anywhere?

Sep 06 16:11:03 <EML> and on the bright side, the Sarah Connor Chronicles resume Monday. Yea!

Sep 06 16:11:12 <Mr_Hands> I don't know why Mr_Hands is there. He is my alter ego, along with chief strike anywhere

Sep 06 16:11:20 <Mr_Hands> i have too many aliases. it confuses folk

Sep 06 16:11:36 <EML> But many hands make light work.

Sep 06 16:11:38 <Lensman> No kidding.

Sep 06 16:12:55 <Dan> "Mr. Hands" is one of the secret identities that was given to the Chinese character in Blackhawk Comics back in the '70s.

Sep 06 16:13:13 <EML> On a Nivenesque note, I'll mention JUGGLER comes out this month. The 16th.

Sep 06 16:13:28 <Mr_Hands> I was thinking more of the teacher in Fast Times at Ridgemont High

Sep 06 16:13:43 <Lensman> Dang, out this month and no ARCs? What is the world coming to.

Sep 06 16:14:30 <Jim> Ed, do SF books tend to come out in September? I remember many Dune books that came out in late-September/early-October.

Sep 06 16:15:13 <SeanS> hi everyone. I forgot this was going on.

Sep 06 16:15:26 <Dan> LOL!

Sep 06 16:15:49 <EML> Jim: Books come out all year. That said, publishers sometimes like to maintain a rhythm. If one book came out in the fall, they'll want a sequel out the following fall.

Sep 06 16:15:54 <Dan> How's it going, Sean?

Sep 06 16:15:54 <Lensman> Hmmm looks like someone at is offering a copy:

Sep 06 16:15:56 <Mr_Hands> hey sean. long time no type

Sep 06 16:16:01 <Lensman>

Sep 06 16:16:03 <Jim> Ed, OK

Sep 06 16:16:47 <EML> THere's a new Dune book out 9/16, too. Paul of Dune, I believe is the title.

Sep 06 16:17:00 <Lensman> Claims to be the actual hardback, not a "galley proof" or whatever.

Sep 06 16:17:01 <Jim> Ed, thanks.

Sep 06 16:17:43 <SeanS> doing ok.

Sep 06 16:17:49 <Lensman> Ed: So how is it going with "Destroyer"? Any progress to report?

Sep 06 16:18:23 <Lensman> And anything new in the field of solo works by Mr. Lerner?

Sep 06 16:18:31 <EML> Destroyer is about half-written.

Sep 06 16:18:59 <Lensman> Are you confident it will be finished? Any stumbling blocks?

Sep 06 16:19:35 <EML> New solo? I've mentioned this in past chats, I believe, but next up is FOOLS' EXPERIMENTS. There's an excellent review at

Sep 06 16:19:56 <Lensman> Is that a spoiler-free review?

Sep 06 16:20:26 <EML> That's from Tom easton, the 30-year veteran Analog reviewer.

Sep 06 16:20:40 <EML> Hmm ... a plethora of questions. One at a time ...

Sep 06 16:21:09 <Lensman> No hurry.

Sep 06 16:21:10 <EML> Lens: of *course* it will be finished. I don't start books I don't know how to finish. :-)

Sep 06 16:21:35 <Lensman> Okay. There's just "The Ghost Ships" as a warning.

Sep 06 16:22:54 <EML> Lens: the Easton review does reveal early parts of the plot. If that's more than you want to know, you can still safely read the first half (which is about the underlying science).

Sep 06 16:24:06 <Lensman> That's always the problem innit? How to tell the reader about the book without giving away anything important? You can't really; you've got to explain the basic setup at least.

Sep 06 16:24:26 <EML> umm ... The Ghot Ships?

Sep 06 16:24:48 <EML> shoSt ghoSt ghoSt I can do it!

Sep 06 16:25:04 <Lensman> Mark wants me to write reviews of the Niven books. I'm thinking about /Protector/... how do I write a review of that w/o revealing Brennan becomes a protector?

Sep 06 16:25:49 <Lensman> "The Ghost Ships" was to be the third book in "The Smoke Ring" trilogy. Larry says it's dead. VERY dead, apparently.

Sep 06 16:26:09 * CrazyEddy has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Sep 06 16:26:23 <EML> There's a type of review -- hard to write -- that's about the book without being about the plot.

Sep 06 16:26:35 <Dan> You'd have to write about the literary merit rather than providing a synopsis of the story, Lensman.

Sep 06 16:26:46 * Mr_Hands has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Sep 06 16:27:10 <Dan> That was the type of review I wrote, back when I was writing book reviews.

Sep 06 16:27:49 <Dan> I hated synopsis reviews, so I wrote about plot, characterization, and how much fun the story was to read.

Sep 06 16:28:47 <Lensman> Yah. But is that very helpful? If someone comes to and wants to read a review, what does he want? I suspect enough about the book to whet the appetite, but none of the meat of the story. So: Describe the setup, but try to minimize the plot spoilers. That's what I did with my review of /Fleet of Worlds/, and Ed has expressed thanks for my minimizing spoilers there.

Sep 06 16:29:19 <EML> About the premise, or the setting, and a little about a key character or two -- then end with "and if that sounds interesting, read it."

Sep 06 16:29:47 <Lensman> Dan, if you have any of those reviews archived, would you be willing to send me a couple? They may be useful as examples.

Sep 06 16:29:57 <Dan> To each his own style, I say. I gave up writing reviews when I ran out of ways to say "this is a great book - go out and buy yourself a copy, really quickly!"

Sep 06 16:30:55 <Dan>

Sep 06 16:31:00 <Lensman> Yah that's the problem I see with writing reviews that way for Niven books. How many different ways can I say "I really like Niven's style of writing, his characters, humor, attention to scientific realism, etc." ?

Sep 06 16:31:07 <Lensman> Thanx Dan.

Sep 06 16:31:18 <Dan> You're welcome.

Sep 06 16:32:07 <EML> So far lack of a theme today ... how about SF on TV?

Sep 06 16:32:10 <Lensman> Looks like I'm hogging the spotlight here. Ed, how is the weather affecting your life and your community?

Sep 06 16:32:34 <Lensman> LOL! Ed, we were talking about "Stargate Atlantis" before you showed up.

Sep 06 16:32:36 <Jim> How does one set the topic?

Sep 06 16:33:01 <Lensman> Jim: Just pick something interesting that people want to talk about!

Sep 06 16:33:05 <EML> Lens: the weather isn't a biggie in my town. the worst of things is 50+ miles east of me.

Sep 06 16:33:34 <EML> SGA is fine with me. What were they thinking, writing off Samantha Carter?

Sep 06 16:33:48 <Lensman> I missed that episode.

Sep 06 16:34:06 <Jim> Amanda Tapping got a new acting job.

Sep 06 16:34:20 <Lensman> They brought her in to replace what's her name, the first leader, then they got rid of her? Was that the actress' choice or what?

Sep 06 16:34:29 <Lensman> Oh, that'll do it.

Sep 06 16:35:06 <EML> A few episodes ago Samantha was replaced as the head of Atlantis. I don't remember the character name; the actor is Robert Piaardo.

Sep 06 16:35:38 <Dan> The hologram doctor from ST:Voyager?

Sep 06 16:35:43 <Lensman> I got out of the habit of watching the Skiffy Channel on Fridays when BSG went on haitus again. So I've missed a bunch of SGA episodes. But there are alwways reruns!

Sep 06 16:35:53 <Jim> Robert Picardo (of ST: Voyager) plays Woolsey.

Sep 06 16:36:00 <EML> Yeah, Amanda Tapping (Sam) is on a new series called Sanctuary.

Sep 06 16:36:05 <Lensman> Oh, I wondered why he appeared in the credits of this newest episode!

Sep 06 16:36:20 <EML> Yeah, Picardo was the doctor on Voyager

Sep 06 16:37:40 <EML> So: any Terminator fans among you?

Sep 06 16:37:57 <Lensman> Well I hope he plays a very different character on SGA. He and Rodney on one show would be too much! Dueling abrasive eggheads...

Sep 06 16:38:33 <Lensman> I enjoyed the first movie tremendously, the second very much, haven't tried watching the TV show.

Sep 06 16:39:06 <Dan> I'm looking forward to new Doctor Who episodes, myself. Only 4 eps are planned for 2009. How will I survive?

Sep 06 16:39:11 * senax (~frank@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 16:39:33 * Dan slaps xihr around a bit with a large trout

Sep 06 16:39:46 <Dan> Oops!

Sep 06 16:39:48 <EML> There's also a T-3 (okay) and I believe a T-4 in production.

Sep 06 16:40:02 <senax> Hello...I'm late again as usual.

Sep 06 16:40:10 <Lensman> I've seen T-3. Can't say I enjoyed it.

Sep 06 16:40:27 <Lensman> Hi Senax

Sep 06 16:40:28 <EML> The TV version (Sarah Connor Chronicles) is really an alternate future from the story in T-3.

Sep 06 16:40:37 <Dan> I typed "Hiya, senax." and it came out as slapping xihr with a fish.

Sep 06 16:40:51 <senax> Hell of a typo, Dan.

Sep 06 16:40:53 <EML> sounds fishy to me.

Sep 06 16:40:54 <Jim> Hiya, senax

Sep 06 16:41:11 <Jim> Hiya, senax.

Sep 06 16:41:15 <Jim> ?

Sep 06 16:41:30 <Lensman> That's your fish story and you're sticking to it, eh Dan? :)

Sep 06 16:41:50 <Dan> It's this copy of mIRC. I can't import the script I wrote for my old copies of mIRC without making this new one crash.

Sep 06 16:42:40 <Dan> So if I try and highlight someone's nickname, then type something, a random command happens instead of the text I wanted to appear.

Sep 06 16:43:01 <Lensman> I tried using the "/topic" command today to put in a Niven quote, but it rejected me. I feel so rejected! *Sob*

Sep 06 16:43:23 <EML> try David Niven. Maybe that'll work.

Sep 06 16:43:41 <Dan> Sean's got the channel settings so that only Ops can set a topic.

Sep 06 16:43:58 <senax> Haven't used mIRC in years. It seems like I use a different client almost every time I use IRC (which isn't often), so I never really have time to get used to one. Pidgin this time.

Sep 06 16:44:21 <Dan> I've used mIRC since 1995.

Sep 06 16:45:41 <Dan> Scripting used to be fun, but the more new versions came out, the more my scripts resulted in bugs.

Sep 06 16:46:08 <Dan> I really need to pull up a copy of that script and edit the crap out of it.

Sep 06 16:46:33 <Lensman> I've been using mIRC since I think the second time I joined this chat. Can't say I know it well. If I ever have to reinstall it, I'll need help in setting it up. I remember when I set it up I had to fiddle around and use trial-and-error until I was able to join the chat. Whoever was helping me to set it up wasn't all that helpful. I wish someone would write exact step-by-step instructions on exactly how to set it up.

Sep 06 16:47:23 <EML> I've only used the java interface through a browser, and it's never given my any problems.

Sep 06 16:47:25 <Dan> Lens, the tuouble is that the set-up changes with each new version.

Sep 06 16:47:46 <Lensman> Dan: Well that would be a problem alright.

Sep 06 16:48:28 <Dan> Yeah. Thankfully, it's fairly intuitive. Not completely, but enough that I can get by.

Sep 06 16:48:29 <Lensman> Ed: Depends on your computer, I'm sure. Java sometimes gives my system fits. I've got only 256 meg of memory in this 'puter, that doesn't help I'm sure.

Sep 06 16:48:43 * CrazyEddy (~CrazyEddy@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 16:48:57 <Dan> RE, crazyeddy.

Sep 06 16:49:02 <Lensman> Hi Eddy

Sep 06 16:49:42 <Lensman> Ed, has Larry talked to you about /Escape from Hell/?

Sep 06 16:49:51 <EML> I remember when 256 MB was a lot. How old does that make me?

Sep 06 16:50:09 <Dan> As old as me, Ed. LOL!

Sep 06 16:50:09 <Lensman> About as old as I am, i 'spect.

Sep 06 16:50:38 <Lensman> How many of the "Fans over 50" club are here? Besides me.

Sep 06 16:50:38 <Jim> I remember when 1 Mb was the goal.

Sep 06 16:50:43 <senax> I remember when 64K was big. Get off my lawn!

Sep 06 16:51:20 <EML> Lens: Escape from Hell? I know it exists (and look forward to reading it -- due out next February, I believe), but that's it.

Sep 06 16:51:24 <Dan> But then, I remember when a Commodor 64 and a TRS-80 CoCo3 were State Of The Art.

Sep 06 16:51:32 <Lensman> Ha, yes! 64K. Programming for the Apple II, which was a problem because it wasn't 64K but rather 32K + 32K. Programmers today are such wusses!

Sep 06 16:51:36 * senax is still a few years short of 50

Sep 06 16:51:55 <Dan> I'll be 51 in November.

Sep 06 16:52:09 <EML> My 1st home "computer" wasa a KIM. 2KB ROM, 1 KB RAM, loaded from a cassette deck.

Sep 06 16:53:10 <EML> THAT struck everyone speechless :-)

Sep 06 16:53:11 <senax> I count years spent doing shift work as dog years, which makes me 166.

Sep 06 16:53:35 <Lensman> I had a friend who owned a Timex. IIRC it came with 1K RAM and a plug-in module which gave it an add'l 4K RAM. An external plug, which was wobbly, and required a 3rd party add-on to stabilize it... a large rubber band!

Sep 06 16:53:39 <Dan> The first computer I ever saw was the one my Mom used at the bank she was working at. Programmed with punch cards, it had a desk-sized keyboard section and a CPU as big as a couch!

Sep 06 16:54:37 <Lensman> I used a terminal and an IBM 360 at college. My first experience w/ a home computer was when a friend of mine got an Apple II+.

Sep 06 16:55:07 <Jim> I used a VAX 11/780 at college.

Sep 06 16:55:20 <senax> My first home PC was an Atari 1200. Didn't program it much, though.

Sep 06 16:55:30 <Lensman> I'm glad I never had to deal with punch cards except as an exercise in an "Intro to Data Processing" class.

Sep 06 16:55:53 <Dan> Shift work counts as dog years? What's 30x7, then?

Sep 06 16:56:03 <senax> I was an operator on a pair of VAX 8700s around '94. Aldo a DG Eclipse.

Sep 06 16:56:17 <EML> I used punch cards into grad school. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven when I got to upgrade to a 10 cps TTY and timesharing.

Sep 06 16:57:10 <Dan> Good grief! That'd make me 210 + the 18 human years I lived before I started working at the factory.

Sep 06 16:57:27 <senax> Never used punch cards, although I did have to boot the Eclipse by toggling addresses, etc. using front panel switches...

Sep 06 16:58:26 <EML> how about paper tape, people? that's how the first PDP machines booted.

Sep 06 16:58:47 <Lensman> When I was a computer operator for a printing firm, we'd have to deal with punched tape to reboot the system when it crashed. I was always terrified of tearing the tape. I think we did have one spare, but... how would you fix it if it got torn?

Sep 06 16:58:52 <Dan> Before my time, Ed.

Sep 06 16:59:49 <EML> At Worldcon, I was on a dark-matter panel. I said that when I was in school, I thought we called it phlogiston. :-)

Sep 06 17:00:00 <Dan> LOL!

Sep 06 17:00:08 <Lensman> Now that I think about it, the punched tape drove a card reader. But it was a very short stack, just enought to boot the core.

Sep 06 17:00:19 <Dan> Aether-net? LOL!

Sep 06 17:00:32 <Lensman> "Luminiferous aether"!

Sep 06 17:00:43 <senax> Then there were the teletype terminals. Never used them on a computer (directly), but used to send messages on them back in the mid 80s. Yellow paper dust...

Sep 06 17:00:54 <Dan> Now we're talking SteamPunk! LOL!

Sep 06 17:01:08 <Lensman> Well actually I guess the "fine structure" is the modern incarnation of the "luminiferous aether".

Sep 06 17:01:56 <Dan> I have to confess, my wife and I have been spending so much time working on Steampunk costumes lately that I haven't been making time to write.

Sep 06 17:02:17 <EML> so, Lens: why did yo ask about Escape form Hell?

Sep 06 17:02:41 <Lensman> My Laser Rangers discussion group got to talking about steampunk computers. There's this guy who does faux steampunk laptops. I objected that a flatscreen monitor is out of period! They should have used one of those early round cathode ray tubes. Of course, that would make it rather user-unfriendly.

Sep 06 17:03:02 <Jim> Dan: What would a steam punk costume look like?

Sep 06 17:03:21 <Lensman> Ed: Well I was wondering whether it was a direct sequel, or if it introduces a new cast of characters.

Sep 06 17:04:22 <EML> My impression is there's continuity of characters, but I wouldn't bet large sums on it.

Sep 06 17:04:56 <Lensman> Jim: go to Google Images and type <steampunk costumes>. Some pretty snazzy stuff there!

Sep 06 17:05:05 <EML> Still, Larry & Jerry tweaked Inferno for consistency with what they wanted to do in Escape. That argues for continuity.

Sep 06 17:06:06 * senax saw Phil & Kaja Foglio at Worldcon in steampunk costumes (promoting Girl Genius, of course).

Sep 06 17:06:26 <Dan> Lens is right, Jim. Think Jules Vern and HG Wells era costuming crossed with alternate timelines.

Sep 06 17:06:30 <Lensman> Tweaked? I coulda sworn we were told the new edition had no changes, just some minor additions in the form of quotes introducing chapters.

Sep 06 17:06:47 <Dan> for some of my own outfits.

Sep 06 17:07:27 <Lensman> One of the Laser Rangers is in a costumer's guild and they did a day trip to a steam engine museum. Let's see if I can find the pictures...

Sep 06 17:08:51 <EML> Here's what little I know (from Larry): "We made very minor changes. We took Aimee Semple MacPherson out of book 1 because Jerry had done more research. She's in book 2."

Sep 06 17:09:16 <Lensman> Nope, I guess he didn't post them. :(

Sep 06 17:11:39 <Lensman> Thanx Ed.

Sep 06 17:13:15 <Lensman> Re steampunk: "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" is my fave graphic novel, hands down. Beats "The Dark Knight Returns" by leagues. :) Oddly I've never read any steampunk novels, or at least not that I recall.

Sep 06 17:13:47 <Lensman> Problem is that some are trying to shoehorn any Victorian SF into the steampunk category, which I certainly don't agree with.

Sep 06 17:13:56 <EML> Say, all, I'm gonna cut out soon. I'm only on a -- loosely speaking :-) -- sanity break from editing.

Sep 06 17:14:22 <Jim> Ed: seeya

Sep 06 17:14:29 <Lensman> "sanity" ?? Wow did you come to the wrong place! :D

Sep 06 17:14:33 <EML> so if there are any Fleet, Juggler, or Detsroyer questions ... this is the time.

Sep 06 17:14:49 <Dan> If editing brings sanity, we're all in trouble.

Sep 06 17:15:04 <Lensman> Well, the standard question... what can you tell us about "Destroyer" without any plot spoilers?

Sep 06 17:15:29 <Lensman> And what are you editing? Your own story or someone else's?

Sep 06 17:16:02 <EML> Probably no more than I have. It takes place after Fleet and Juggler. It involves many of the same charcacters. It's more an independent story than a sequel

Sep 06 17:16:29 <EML> And it sheds light on new species.

Sep 06 17:16:40 <Lensman> Ah... that addresses a point of contention, whether FOW / JOW / DOW should be considered a trilogy or not.

Sep 06 17:17:30 <Lensman> But until at least a few have read JOW, we can do nothing but speculate on that.

Sep 06 17:17:35 <EML> The goal is the books stand alone but each enriches the others.

Sep 06 17:18:28 <Lensman> In DOW, will there be more "filling in the details" of previous stories, as there was in FOW?

Sep 06 17:18:35 <EML> The next chat is weeks after Juggler comes out. Perhaps we can talk about it then.

Sep 06 17:19:05 <EML> Yup, DOW will shed light on some previous Known Space stories.

Sep 06 17:20:09 <Lensman> For those few who will have read it, sure. I remember when I tried to set up the semi-official FOW chat, I had to put it off for a month or 2 because there were several who either had bought it but not read it, had started it but not finished, or were planning to buy it but had not yet.

Sep 06 17:20:51 <Lensman> I can't understand "started it but not finished"... what kind of Niven fan could start the book and not finish it the same day ?? 8-0

Sep 06 17:21:03 <EML> you guys debate among yourselves when you'd like a Juggler chat. and for you stubborn holdouts, Fleet is now out in paperbacks :-)

Sep 06 17:21:19 <Lensman> Who here hasn't stayed up until the wee hours reading when he *should* be sleeping?

Sep 06 17:21:44 <Dan> That's good. I can only buy paperbacks. No more shelf-space in the house.

Sep 06 17:22:06 <Lensman> Ah! FOW is in paper. Well then I shall stop using Spoiler Warnings for FOW references on the Niven list.

Sep 06 17:22:23 <EML> OKay ... that's a wrap for me. Check out my new blog if you're curious. Comments welcome.

Sep 06 17:22:42 <Lensman> Will do, and thanks again for dropping in!

Sep 06 17:22:58 <Dan> Good to see you again, ED. Happy editing!

Sep 06 17:23:37 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Sep 06 17:30:45 <Jim> now suppertime; I will be back

Sep 06 17:30:47 <Lensman> Don't everybody talk at once...

Sep 06 17:31:01 <Dan> Just finishing off my supper.

Sep 06 17:35:07 <Lensman> Let me try throwing out a semi-serious topic and see if anyone salutes. Is there any real possibility of commercial spaceflight in our lifetimes? Other than launching satellites into orbit, why would anyone pay to put mass into orbit?

Sep 06 17:35:25 <Lensman> And mass includes people.

Sep 06 17:35:25 <Dan> Lyn fixed sausage, tomatoes, and potatos cooked in the oven, somewhat like a caserole.

Sep 06 17:35:46 * FlyingDragon (~Carol@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 17:35:55 <FlyingDragon> Hello

Sep 06 17:35:57 <Lensman> Tomatoes and potatoes in the same dish. Not sure I've ever tried that.

Sep 06 17:35:59 <Dan> Hiya, Carol.

Sep 06 17:36:00 <Lensman> Welcome Carol!

Sep 06 17:36:08 <Lensman> You missed Ed.

Sep 06 17:36:16 <FlyingDragon> Have had a nice long day at Kuk SOol.

Sep 06 17:36:47 <Lensman> So, details please!

Sep 06 17:37:20 <Dan> Lens, unless private industry manages to make spaceflights a reality, my great grandshildren won't even see large-scale manned spaceflight in *their* lifetimes.

Sep 06 17:37:32 <FlyingDragon> Had lots of great detail in my black belt class on my empty hand Hyung.

Sep 06 17:38:03 <FlyingDragon> The fourth degree head instructor thinks my sword form is VERY good!

Sep 06 17:39:45 <Dan> How is your archery going?

Sep 06 17:40:27 <FlyingDragon> Been doing a lot of long distance archery, so I never really hit anything. But I am shooting them further than ever.

Sep 06 17:40:59 <FlyingDragon> My school master ma'am told me I needed a stringer bow, so I bought a new one.

Sep 06 17:41:09 <FlyingDragon> STRONGER bow

Sep 06 17:41:20 <FlyingDragon> I think they are both stringy enough.

Sep 06 17:41:54 <Lensman> I was skimming thru /LEO on the Cheap/ again yesterday. Very depressing to see NASA keep making the same mistakes over and over. The entire approach to spaceflight is wrong from the ground up. The Russians are doing it much better; more rugged design, more frequent launches, considerably cheaper overall.

Sep 06 17:42:18 <Dan> I think *I'm* doing well when I can hit within 15 feet of an archery target, LOL!

Sep 06 17:42:40 <FlyingDragon> LOL. Bet you are doing western archery.

Sep 06 17:42:54 <Lensman> LOL stringy bow.

Sep 06 17:43:05 <FlyingDragon> Korean archery with the thumb draw is harder to control.

Sep 06 17:43:22 <Lensman> So do you do any of that?

Sep 06 17:43:48 <FlyingDragon> I do only Korean archery. I did western in HS.

Sep 06 17:44:04 <Lensman> Impressive!

Sep 06 17:44:04 <Dan> The operative word is "were" doing archery. Dad used to hunt with a 75lb. recurve bow. *I* was doing good to be able to string a 35 pounder.

Sep 06 17:44:14 <Lensman> Do you use a thumb ring?

Sep 06 17:44:36 <FlyingDragon> No, martial artists don't use thumb rings. We develop our callous instead.

Sep 06 17:44:48 <FlyingDragon> Mine is 56, I think.

Sep 06 17:45:36 <Dan> Of course, I was about 12 at the time...

Sep 06 17:46:08 <FlyingDragon> lol,

Sep 06 17:46:13 <Lensman> Is there any *advantage* to the thumb draw?

Sep 06 17:46:14 <Dan> Haven't tried a bow in 40 years.

Sep 06 17:47:02 <FlyingDragon> I'm stiill learning about why to drwa to the shouder instead of the cheek and nose.

Sep 06 17:47:29 <Lensman> I've never shot a bow except a few times just to see what it was like. I've done a bit of target practice with .22 rifles and black powder rifles. I'm a fair shot at a still target with those, but that's not much to brag about.

Sep 06 17:49:36 <Lensman> I've done enuff rabbit hunting to know the difference between being able to hit a still target at your leisure, and being able to hit something which moves unpredictibly.

Sep 06 17:50:15 <FlyingDragon> Sometimes we joke about hitting the birds taht fly over.

Sep 06 17:50:49 <Dan> I used to know a fellow who gave up hunting with firearms and took up bow hunting. After he got good at that, he bought himself a spear. I asked him what he was gonna do when that got too easy - chase after the deer with a pocketknife? :)

Sep 06 17:51:22 <Lensman> Sharpened fingernails. :)

Sep 06 17:51:31 <Lensman> Cf "Folk Tale".

Sep 06 17:51:34 <Dan> Tooth and claw, eh?

Sep 06 17:52:07 <Lensman> No, Niven is right: Weapons were a part of our evolution.

Sep 06 17:52:57 <FlyingDragon> Not very good with throwing spears. I did that once, but it was before I really did much projectile weapons. A second degree once had a big party where we did weapons at her house, including spear throwing.

Sep 06 17:53:07 <Dan> Anyone who can hit a rabbit with a .22 has my respect. Those little buggers *dodge!*

Sep 06 17:53:12 <FlyingDragon> I think we should do MORE spear throwing, now that you mention it.

Sep 06 17:53:23 <FlyingDragon> Rabbits hold still sometimes.

Sep 06 17:54:03 <Lensman> Studies of Neanderthal bones show a large number of fractures in a specific pattern. Theory is they used hand-held spears to kill large prey, and suffered injuries relatively frequently as a result. H. sapiens apparently used missile weapons, fire and traps more to kill large prey. Less dangerous. We won, Neanderthal lost.

Sep 06 17:55:00 <Lensman> Aye, the best way to hunt rabbit is to find a nest and shoot the ones which are *not* running. I've shot at a few rabbits on the lam... difficult target indeed!

Sep 06 17:55:26 <Dan> Easier to trap rabbits. Quail & pheasant? That takes a shotgun. For deer, I recommend land mines and overlapping fields of fire from machine guns. Or just buy an old truck and cruse around on the back roads. :)

Sep 06 17:56:10 <Dan> My old truck killed more deer than any gun I ever owned.

Sep 06 17:56:38 <FlyingDragon> LOL

Sep 06 17:56:41 <Dan> But when it comes down to it, I really prefer fishing to hunting.

Sep 06 17:56:46 <FlyingDragon> My knife throwing is bad too

Sep 06 17:57:03 <FlyingDragon> I prefer shopping to fishing or hunting

Sep 06 17:57:26 <Dan> LOL!

Sep 06 17:57:55 <Dan> Yeah, shopping *is* more dangerous, and takes more skill.

Sep 06 17:58:05 <Lensman> Aye, the best way to hunt rabbit is to find a nest and shoot the ones which are *not* running. I've shot at a few rabbits on the lam... difficult target indeed!

Sep 06 17:58:22 <Lensman> Once I was down in a shallow gully and a rabbit "exploded" from cover right at my feet. You'd have thought I coulda hit one that close, but it kept dodging from side to side. I fired 3 x, missed three x. It ran up and out of the gully into flat terrain. I think I fired once or twice more but it kept dodging. I had given up and started to turn around when I noticed it had straightened its flight and was now running in a straight path. I gave it on

Sep 06 17:58:33 <Lensman> That was odd... repeat post?

Sep 06 17:58:56 <FlyingDragon> Which post? "I prefer shopping to fishing or hunting."?

Sep 06 17:59:10 <Dan> You must have hit one of the arrow keys before you hit ENTER.

Sep 06 17:59:20 <Lensman> "Aye, the best way to hunt rabbit" was repeated.

Sep 06 17:59:38 <Lensman> Oh, is it the arrow keys that do it? Thanx.

Sep 06 18:00:02 <FlyingDragon> cool

Sep 06 18:00:23 <Lensman> Shopping is more dangerous? Where do you shop, in the Amazon? :)

Sep 06 18:01:18 <Dan> Evidently you've never gone Christmas shopping at a Mall during the holidays.

Sep 06 18:01:33 <Dan> You can get trampled by wild beasts that way.

Sep 06 18:01:39 <Dan> :)

Sep 06 18:01:47 <Lensman> LOL! True, I avoid that. I've heard horror stories on the news...

Sep 06 18:02:48 <FlyingDragon> I once went shopping on Christmas eve. THe stores were dead. No waiting.

Sep 06 18:02:55 <Dan> I almost lost an arm during a Blue Light Special sale on GI Joe toy at a department store in my youth. Those little old Grannys will kill you if you get in their way!

Sep 06 18:02:55 <Lensman> Apparently if you're after the season's most popular toy, it would help to wear full football uniform, including all the padding and the helmet, and be ready to block like a linebacker!

Sep 06 18:03:23 <FlyingDragon> I once went shopping on the day after Thanksgiving. Best shopping day of the year, if you get up early. I was tired and went home by the time the places were busy.

Sep 06 18:04:28 <Lensman> I tend to be a last-minute shopper... but Xmas eve is *too* last-minute for me!

Sep 06 18:06:16 <FlyingDragon> I've ALREADY got some of my shopping done!

Sep 06 18:06:57 <Dan> I prefer online shopping, these days.

Sep 06 18:08:14 <Dan> Even the grocery store can be too crowded, a times.

Sep 06 18:08:29 <FlyingDragon> THat is a LOT of fun, on-line shopping, but you can get some great deals on days like the day after Thanksgiving!

Sep 06 18:08:36 <Lensman> Online is *so* much more pleasant! So long as you know exactly what you want. Hard to browse online.

Sep 06 18:09:03 <FlyingDragon> It is great beign able to find almost anything on line

Sep 06 18:09:05 <Dan> I like doing my grocery shopping when I get off of a night shift. At 7 AM, the store is pretty empty of customers.

Sep 06 18:09:53 <Dan> 24-Hour stores are wonderful things.

Sep 06 18:10:26 <FlyingDragon> Yes, but my all night Krogers has a self check out line after 9 pm that I HATE!

Sep 06 18:11:04 <Dan> I'm not fond of the self-checkout lines. I always seem to have three items that won't scan.

Sep 06 18:11:24 <Lensman> I tried using self-checkout exactly once. Too much hassle.

Sep 06 18:11:30 <FlyingDragon> THey are NOISY. If I coudl put a mute button on them, I would like them better.

Sep 06 18:11:36 <Jim> Carol of Houston: what is wrong with Kroger's self check machines. I like them. They must have been designed for men who are just picking up nuts and beer.

Sep 06 18:12:37 <FlyingDragon> FIne if you have two items and don't want to talk to anyone. Teens buying condoms. But the noise bothers me, and after nine, it doesn't matter how many items i have, the self check out is all that is open. Jim, did YOU design them????

Sep 06 18:13:14 <Lensman> Jim: Glad they work for you. I have the same problem as Dan: Items which won't scan, and then you're supposed to ask an employee for help, so what's the advantage?

Sep 06 18:13:16 <Jim> No, but I like to use them in Kroger and WalMart.

Sep 06 18:13:57 <Dan> I think Murphy designed the self-sheckouts at WalMart, but I rarely have a problem with the ones at Ingles Grocery. But you're right Carol, they are *quite* loud.

Sep 06 18:14:47 <FlyingDragon> Three out of four vote them down. Stores still need people in them.

Sep 06 18:15:05 <Dan> I think that it's the same problem as ATMs, designed for deaf people to be able to hear!

Sep 06 18:15:22 <Lensman> I've never been to a store that only had self-checkout available. What if you want to pay cash?

Sep 06 18:15:44 <FlyingDragon> They take cash.

Sep 06 18:15:56 <Jim> Self-checkout machines at WalMart and Kroger's accepts cash.

Sep 06 18:15:58 <Dan> At Ingles, there's a slot for cash and change. It always makes the correct change, too.

Sep 06 18:16:09 <FlyingDragon> ANd if the automatic machine won't take your bill, there is a clerk watching over four or more lanes.

Sep 06 18:16:20 <Lensman> They take cash? Like a vending machine? Or is there a real person there to take money?

Sep 06 18:16:41 <Jim> At the Post Office, the machines give you change in those dollar coins.

Sep 06 18:17:00 <Dan> Like a vending machine, but there is a real person there too. They watch 4 or more self-sheckouts at a time, like Carol said.

Sep 06 18:17:23 <Lensman> I *hate* the vending machines at the Post Awful. Limited selection, and quite apt to eat your money.

Sep 06 18:17:36 <Dan> They always have to look at my ID when I buy beer. :)

Sep 06 18:17:38 <FlyingDragon> I've never had a problem at the PO.

Sep 06 18:17:38 <Lensman> And often refuse to take bills, too.

Sep 06 18:17:51 <FlyingDragon> Dan, you are old looking enough to buy beer!!!!

Sep 06 18:18:03 <Lensman> I'd rather stand in line at the Post Awful, altho it's generally a long line.

Sep 06 18:18:05 <Jim> Depends upon the age and upkeep of the machines.

Sep 06 18:18:11 <Dan> I know, but I prefer to take it as a compliment!

Sep 06 18:18:41 <FlyingDragon> I'm old looking enough that they are wasting my time to ID me!!!!

Sep 06 18:18:47 <Lensman> I guess Carol's post office has good upkeep on their vending machines.

Sep 06 18:19:08 <Lensman> It's been far too many years since I was carded!

Sep 06 18:19:44 <Dan> Once, a checkout girl asked me for my ID for my beer. I took off my hat and pointed to my gray hair. She grinned, but still had to see my driver's license. Store policy, and they could get fired if they don't check.

Sep 06 18:19:47 <FlyingDragon> WEll, I am in a rather nice place. No slums near here.

Sep 06 18:20:39 <FlyingDragon> At Walmart, when I buy rubber cement and spray paint, the cash register asks them to look at my ID. THey just press a buttona nd pass on to the next item.

Sep 06 18:21:27 <Lensman> You have to be 18+ or 21+ to buy spray paint? Big Brother is watching you!

Sep 06 18:21:48 <FlyingDragon> People sniff it. <shrug>

Sep 06 18:22:07 <Dan> The cops around here enjoy sending an underage narc-kid in to see if they can get away with buying beer and cigarettes. The stores can lose their license if they don't card *everyone!*

Sep 06 18:22:12 <Lensman> Oh, I thought it was because of spray paint graffiti.

Sep 06 18:22:18 <Jim> I am asked for my ID all the time because I tend to buy beer at convenience stores where kids hang out.

Sep 06 18:22:42 <Jim> Dan: they do that in WV also

Sep 06 18:23:14 * Fred (~Fred@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 18:23:20 <Dan> Hiya, Fred.

Sep 06 18:23:28 <FlyingDragon> HEllo

Sep 06 18:23:40 <Fred> Hey, Dan, Carol

Sep 06 18:23:49 <Lensman> I use rubber cement in woodworking. Seems to be the best thing to glue a pattern onto a piece of wood, since it's fairly easy to remove with an eraser.

Sep 06 18:24:00 <FlyingDragon> I'm a weird one, though. DOn't see much wrong with graffitt on freeways.

Sep 06 18:24:00 <Lensman> Hi Fred.

Sep 06 18:24:15 <Fred> llens

Sep 06 18:24:20 <Jim> Hi, Fred

Sep 06 18:24:24 <Lensman> No, Lens. :)

Sep 06 18:24:33 <Fred> Hey Jim

Sep 06 18:25:12 <Lensman> Ed was in earlier, but no Larry today.

Sep 06 18:25:30 <Fred> I'm having a really bad day. Take your lower case double l instead of the intended upper case single L and be happy with it :P

Sep 06 18:25:33 <FlyingDragon> Did Ed have aanything interesting to say?

Sep 06 18:25:49 <Lensman> He gave the URL for his blog.

Sep 06 18:26:18 <FlyingDragon> I"m sure it is interesting, but what I don't need is another blog to read.

Sep 06 18:26:19 <Lensman>

Sep 06 18:26:30 <Jim> Ed, also said that Juggler of Worlds and a new Dune book will be out Sep 16, 2008.

Sep 06 18:27:01 <Jim> Blogs are good to read when the writer is a professional writer. :-)

Sep 06 18:27:31 <FlyingDragon> He's writing a new DUNE book????

Sep 06 18:27:31 <Lensman> And he says the new edition of /Inferno/ has some minor changes to make it consistant with /Escape from Hell/. Continuity is good!

Sep 06 18:27:55 <Lensman> And he says FOW is now out in paperback.

Sep 06 18:28:03 <Fred> I've had JoW preordered for months. Amazon keeps tryin to sell me every lame sci-fi book that comes out because of it.

Sep 06 18:28:22 <FlyingDragon> Can't you tell them to stop??

Sep 06 18:28:31 <Lensman> Altho I note it hasn't been a year since the hardback. Guess I'll give it another month before I stop using Spoiler Warnings for FOW on the list.

Sep 06 18:28:40 <Fred> Sort of

Sep 06 18:29:04 <Fred> I can tell them 'don't ever recommend anything else based of FoW again'

Sep 06 18:29:12 <Dan> BRB, need to make a cup of tea for my wife. She's coming down with some kind of flu and she feels like crap right now.

Sep 06 18:29:33 <Fred> but then I'd lose recomends for all stuff by Larry

Sep 06 18:29:54 <Jim> Carol, no the new Dune book was written by Frank Herbert, but never published.

Sep 06 18:30:19 <FlyingDragon> ah

Sep 06 18:30:46 * Fred has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Sep 06 18:31:01 <Lensman> -/Paul of Dune/. To be followed by /Lorne o' Dune/ ? <Lensman ducks>

Sep 06 18:32:11 * Fred (~Fred@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 18:32:33 <Fred> oof

Sep 06 18:32:33 <Lensman> I didn't know we were coming apart! :)

Sep 06 18:32:55 <Dan> Back...

Sep 06 18:33:17 <Dan> Making tea for an English woman takes skill.

Sep 06 18:33:25 <Lensman> So, was this unpublished because he died or unpublished because it wasn't worth publishing?

Sep 06 18:33:53 <Fred> Is anybody else getting like a 10, 15 second lag between when they post and when their post appears?

Sep 06 18:33:58 <Lensman> Or at least, making it so it passes muster does.

Sep 06 18:34:12 <FlyingDragon> Only once in a while, Lens

Sep 06 18:34:16 <Lensman> Not here. You must be using the Java client, Fred?

Sep 06 18:34:28 <FlyingDragon> New DUne books: THey were unfinished, adn had to be re-writen?

Sep 06 18:34:35 <Dan> I'm getting a 1 sec Ping time to Fred.

Sep 06 18:34:46 <Fred> went in through the website

Sep 06 18:34:48 <Jim> Paul of Dune was unpublished during Frank Herbert's lifetime. I suspect that it was written but never edited and forgotten about.

Sep 06 18:35:19 <Lensman> 10-15 second lag is one reason I never use the Java client. Occasional s l o w t y p i n g is another.

Sep 06 18:35:27 <Dan> Yeah, it's the Java client, then. Those can be slow to update your screen, Fred.

Sep 06 18:35:47 <Jim> ping

Sep 06 18:36:45 <Lensman> Well, I shall render no opinion on the quality of /Paul of Dune/. I read /Dune/ once long ago and never read any of the sequels. I acknowledge it is a classic but it's not to my taste.

Sep 06 18:37:04 * Received a CTCP PING 1220740572 from Dan (to #knownspace)

Sep 06 18:37:22 * FireFred (~FireFred@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 18:37:38 <FireFred> testing firefox

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> [Fred PING reply]: 1sec

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> -

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> [SeanS PING reply]: 0secs

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> -

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> [senax PING reply]: 1sec

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> -

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> [Lensman PING reply]: 1sec

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> -

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> [xihr PING reply]: 1sec

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> -

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> [bandersnatch PING reply]: 1sec

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> -

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> [Jim PING reply]: 2secs

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> -

Sep 06 18:37:40 <Dan> [FlyingDragon PING reply]: 6secs

Sep 06 18:37:43 <Lensman> Dang, I think I'm in a submarine movie! Ping! Ping!

Sep 06 18:37:54 <FireFred> lag test

Sep 06 18:38:21 <Lensman> There wasn't this much pinging in /Hunt for Red October/!

Sep 06 18:38:30 <FireFred> ack. 19 seconds.

Sep 06 18:38:31 <Lensman> :)

Sep 06 18:38:48 <Fred> safari lag test

Sep 06 18:38:58 <Fred> 5 seconds

Sep 06 18:39:13 <Lensman> So, Carol... what did you do today besides thumb archery?

Sep 06 18:39:23 <FlyingDragon> DIdn't do archery.

Sep 06 18:39:38 <Lensman> Oh? Sorry I misunderstood.

Sep 06 18:39:51 <Jim> Lensman: what is thumb archery?

Sep 06 18:39:53 <Dan> Sword form, wasn't it?

Sep 06 18:39:53 <FlyingDragon> Got detail on my empty handed hyung, taught a lot, was told my swrod form is better, buy the head instructor!!!!

Sep 06 18:40:13 <FlyingDragon> Thumb archery is the Korean thumb draw, which I do in Kuk Sool Won, wehn I do archery.

Sep 06 18:41:05 <Lensman> So what do you do in sword form? Single-person display, or does it involve an opponent?

Sep 06 18:41:25 <Lensman> Wooden practice sword or what?

Sep 06 18:41:34 <Fred> Paul of Dune is cowritten by the author of the Dune prequels.

Sep 06 18:42:14 <Fred> and Brian Herbert

Sep 06 18:42:18 <FlyingDragon> The only sword form I've been taught is a single person straight swrod form. Straight is how you hold the blade. The next sword form I will be tuaght involves a reverse grab.

Sep 06 18:42:27 <Jim> Fred: then it was not even finished by Frank Herbert

Sep 06 18:43:06 <Fred> Frank's name doesn't even appear on it

Sep 06 18:43:14 <FlyingDragon> IT is a very beautiful form. My straight swrod form involves a bit of jumping, which I'm not really good at. But loosing 40 pounds has helped me a lot,a nd I'm able to get a much lower stance and swingthe sword a LOT faster.

Sep 06 18:43:56 <Lensman> Always a bit murky with those "finished by someone else" things. Is it actually a more-or-less finished book that just needs a bit of editing, like /Fuzzies and Other People/? Or was it just an outline and/or a few notes that the publisher falsly *claims* was an "unfinished novel", like /Colonel Sun/ (James Bond) or /First Cycle/ (H. Beam Piper)?

Sep 06 18:44:03 <Jim> According to, Frank had nothing to do with Paul of Dune. Sorry. :-(

Sep 06 18:44:11 <Dan> Lower stance makes better use of you center of gravity, doesn't it Carol?

Sep 06 18:44:38 <Fred> this look's like it's nothing to do with Frank. 2 earlier books were based on 'outlines'

Sep 06 18:44:58 <Lensman> What type of sword?

Sep 06 18:45:44 <FlyingDragon> It is a KOREAN sword, which, if you have studied much Korean sword history, doesn't mean much.

Sep 06 18:46:02 <FlyingDragon> Single edge, straight, although many swords are slightly curved.

Sep 06 18:46:17 <FlyingDragon> The blade is about as long as your arm.

Sep 06 18:46:21 <Jim> Frank Herbert's Dune ended with Paul Muad’Dib in control of the planet Dune. Herbert’s next Dune book, Dune Messiah, picked up the story several years later after Paul’s armies had conquered the galaxy. But what happened between Dune and Dune Messiah? How did Paul create his empire and become the Messiah? Following in the footsteps of Frank Herbert, New York Times bestselling authors...

Sep 06 18:46:22 <Jim> ...Brian...

Sep 06 18:46:23 <Jim> ...Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson are answering these questions in Paul of Dune.

Sep 06 18:46:25 <Jim> The Muad’Dib’s jihad is in full swing. His warrior legions march from victory to victory. But beneath the joy of victory there are dangerous undercurrents. Paul, like nearly every great conqueror, has enemies--those who would betray him to steal the awesome power he commands. . . .

Sep 06 18:46:26 <Jim> And Paul himself begins to have doubts: Is the jihad getting out of his control? Has he created anarchy? Has he been betrayed by those he loves and trusts the most? And most of all, he wonders: Am I going mad?

Sep 06 18:46:28 <Jim> Paul of Dune is currently scheduled for publication by Tor Books on September 16, 2008.

Sep 06 18:46:37 <FlyingDragon> My cutting sword is almost exactly like it, as far as the blade is concerned.

Sep 06 18:46:57 <Jim> Sorry about the info dump. :-(

Sep 06 18:47:14 <Lensman> Sorry I know nothing of Korean sword history. Single edge, straight, thanks.

Sep 06 18:47:26 <Fred>

Sep 06 18:48:14 <FlyingDragon> We do use short swords, which are different from knives, as they have large hilts. The third degrees learn a form that used double short swords.

Sep 06 18:48:48 <FlyingDragon> THere is a two person form that used a long sword and double short swords. I'm not sure what leverl it is taught at, but my masters are famous for it.

Sep 06 18:49:07 <Dan> Two-handed sword fighting is *hard* to master.

Sep 06 18:49:12 <Lensman> What kind of guard on the sword hilt? Japanese style, western-typ cross guard or what?

Sep 06 18:49:22 <Dan> Um, fighting with two blades, that is.

Sep 06 18:50:00 <Fred> the dune notes are on a Radio Shack 5" floppy

Sep 06 18:50:40 <Lensman> Fred ?

Sep 06 18:50:47 <Lensman> That a joke?

Sep 06 18:50:58 <Fred> no

Sep 06 18:51:16 <Fred> they have an image of them on that url blog I gave above

Sep 06 18:51:25 <FlyingDragon> My practice swords have no hilts. My cutting sword has a round disk that is molded into the symbol of the association. DOuble short swords have a small plain disk, and a boxy thinnish guard ocer the back o the hand.

Sep 06 18:51:40 <Dan> I have the outline of my first attempt at a novel on Radio Shack *cassette tapes!* LOL!

Sep 06 18:52:23 <Dan> Typed it on a TRS-80 CoCo 3.

Sep 06 18:53:17 <Lensman> I remember using a "Trash-80" at college. Or trying to. Not user-friendly compared to the Apple II as I recall.

Sep 06 18:53:37 <FlyingDragon> Kuk Sool Won double short swords:

Sep 06 18:54:05 <Dan> Carol, your swords are live steel blades, aren't they? And except for the cutting sword, unsharpened?

Sep 06 18:54:14 <FlyingDragon> Yes.

Sep 06 18:54:27 <FlyingDragon> Live steal doen'st mean shart, does it?

Sep 06 18:54:31 <Jim> Lensman: when did you go to college. I was a freshman in 1983 and got my Ph.D. in 2000 (worked in between).

Sep 06 18:54:33 <Lensman> That type of short sword is what you used today, Carol?

Sep 06 18:54:44 <FlyingDragon> "Live steal" doesn't mean sharp?

Sep 06 18:54:58 <FlyingDragon> They are steal.

Sep 06 18:55:06 <FlyingDragon> No, I don't use the short sword.

Sep 06 18:55:13 <Lensman> Well I went back to college circa 1980-2 to study data processing.

Sep 06 18:55:25 <Dan> I've seen wooden practice swords in some of the catalogs, one is even foam-padded. But I'd think that the difference in the weight between wood and steel would tend to handicap someone who was practicing.

Sep 06 18:55:26 <FlyingDragon> HEre is a common Kuk Sool Sword

Sep 06 18:55:49 <FlyingDragon> but my practice sword is brwon, inlaid with mother of pearl, and has no hilt.

Sep 06 18:56:21 <FlyingDragon> I use a wooden sword when I don't want to lay down my scabbard when I am teaching.

Sep 06 18:56:25 <Lensman> Wooden practice swords are thicker, supposed to have the same weight as steel. At least, in Kendo they are.

Sep 06 18:56:35 <Dan> "Live Steel" means that they aren't some cheap pot-metal. Real steel blades. Sharp or blunt is a different catagory.

Sep 06 18:56:37 <Jim> Carol: my brother is into large Japanese swords, but I like European

Sep 06 18:56:59 <FlyingDragon> Also, if I am teaching someone who doesn't know the form, I often use my wooden sword, because they don't know anything that involves drawing ad sheathing.

Sep 06 18:57:22 <FlyingDragon> Yes, they are live steel, practice ones are dull.

Sep 06 18:57:43 <Lensman> I presume most martial artist schools will use blunted weapons when they use steel swords. Sharpened is just asking for trouble... am I right, Carol?

Sep 06 18:58:00 <FlyingDragon> My master tells me to practice all my sword meditations and forms with my sharp, but they aren't allowed on teh floor.

Sep 06 18:58:13 <Jim> On TV, they sometimes use aircraft alloys to make their swords easier to weld

Sep 06 18:58:33 <FlyingDragon> You practice with dull blades. You cut with sharps. If you are at HOME then you can practice with your sharp.

Sep 06 18:58:34 <Lensman> Prop weapons can be very different.

Sep 06 18:58:57 <FlyingDragon> We have cutting workshops once or twice a year.

Sep 06 18:59:25 <FlyingDragon> Recently, I cut up a watermelon with my cutting sword!

Sep 06 18:59:30 <Dan> Cutting swords *have* to be sharp, but blunted steel is the thing for demos and skill tests.

Sep 06 19:00:06 <Lensman> But a real one-handed sword is only about 3.5 pounds. Hand-and-a-half or 2-handed can be a bit heavier. But they just don't make 60 lb swords as in "Not Long Before the End". No one could swing anything like that.

Sep 06 19:01:14 <Lensman> So they shouldn't *need* to use ultra-light metal weapons. The real things aren't that heavy.

Sep 06 19:03:10 <FlyingDragon> Some of the new practice swords are so light that they feel like holding a light saber!

Sep 06 19:03:10 <Lensman> Wiki says a Claymore (large two-handed sword) was about 5.5 lbs. Still not very heavy.

Sep 06 19:03:22 <Dan> Carol, I have one Spanish-made basket-hilted short sword that I used to chop up kindling woof for my cast iron stove.

Sep 06 19:03:31 <Dan> woof=wood

Sep 06 19:03:32 <Lensman> My lightsaber isn't that light! :)

Sep 06 19:03:36 <FlyingDragon> Anotehr reason to use wooden sword is for the weight, to strengthen the arms.

Sep 06 19:04:00 <FlyingDragon> Dan :-)

Sep 06 19:04:28 <Dan> Lens, try holding a Claymore out at arm's length for any reasonable period of time. The buggers *get* heavy! LOL!

Sep 06 19:04:29 <FlyingDragon> I've seen Sa Bum NIm practice his double long sword form with Kwan Jang Nim's heaviest wooden swords.

Sep 06 19:04:49 <Lensman> Tom Cruise said that after he had worked out enough to be good with the katana for "The Last Samurai" his shirts didn't fit anymore... his arms were too big!

Sep 06 19:04:51 <FlyingDragon> Holding a piece of paper at arms length gets heavy after a minutes or two.

Sep 06 19:04:58 <Jim> Wiki says that the average longsword was 1.4 kg - light.

Sep 06 19:05:18 <FlyingDragon> Too bad he wasn't BETTER for all that practice he did.

Sep 06 19:05:41 <Fred> maybe he should exercise his head some

Sep 06 19:05:54 <Lensman> Oh yes, absolutely, holding a sword straight out will get heavy after awhile! I still think you'd be a wuss to need a lighter-than-real sword. I'm a wimp but not *that* much of a wimp!

Sep 06 19:06:19 <FlyingDragon> Maybe he needed a better teacher.

Sep 06 19:06:27 <Jim> "The Last Samurai" is wrong because the Japanese imported German military experts - not Americans.

Sep 06 19:06:33 <Dan> Sword practice needs to take years to develop skill. Cruse probably spent 4 or 5 months, at most.

Sep 06 19:06:54 <Fred> Ahnold had to lose bulk to sword fight in CONAN - his arms were too big

Sep 06 19:06:55 <Lensman> Sorry I brought that up. I like the movie, but it's a movie-- not history.

Sep 06 19:07:25 <FlyingDragon> I"m really glad I had a few years in the black betl club before I had to learn the sword form. Peter still doen'st know the meditations, and he is learning the form.

Sep 06 19:07:51 * FireFred has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Sep 06 19:08:15 <Dan> I took a year of fencing PE classes in college, but I wouldn't want to have to face a real swordsman!

Sep 06 19:09:14 <FlyingDragon> Well, if you happen to be shopping and notice a hold up, a sowrd is better than empty hands, especially if he affronts you. The robber does't know how good you are.

Sep 06 19:09:45 <Dan> I'd be better off throwing the sword at my opponent, then running away as fast as I can! LOL!

Sep 06 19:10:01 <Lensman> The foils and epees they use in fencing are far from real weapons. I've looked at actual period tutorials for using real fencing weapons-- rapiers and smallswords. It's actually fairly simple. You can't do the fancy stuff except with stuff you can wave around like a baton. The real things won't move that fast.

Sep 06 19:12:07 <Lensman> I recall a story about some Scadians (SCA folk) who were confronted by a gang wielding switchblades. They ran back to their car, opened the trunk, pulled out their shields and rattan swords... naturally the punks ran, they weren't used to dealing with shields!

Sep 06 19:12:27 <Dan> That's right. Put a theatrical fencer on a battlefield with a soldier, and the actor is a corpse really quickly.

Sep 06 19:13:13 * Agincourtdb (~Agincourtdb@ has joined #knownspace

Sep 06 19:13:18 <Dan> One SCAdian I met told a story about a fellow pulling a switchblade on him in the NY subway...

Sep 06 19:13:30 <Agincourtdb> and in I walk

Sep 06 19:13:47 <Lensman> Real fencing basically boils down to "Keep the point of your sword aimed at the enemy at all times, and poke him until he falls down." Not very cinematic!

Sep 06 19:13:48 <FlyingDragon> LOL

Sep 06 19:14:24 <Agincourtdb> how is everyone

Sep 06 19:14:49 <FlyingDragon> So, the SCAdian pulled a sword????

Sep 06 19:15:01 <Lensman> Of course, we can expect some Scadian stories are exaggerated... but still, I would imagine a would-be mugger armed with a swichblade wouldn't try to stand up to someone with a wooden shield and rattan sword!

Sep 06 19:15:14 <Lensman> I is fine, Aggie.

Sep 06 19:15:15 <Dan> The SCAdian was on his way home from weapons practice and still had his armor on under his raincoat. The mugger stuck him with the switchblede, and it broke. The SCAdian grinned and reached under his coat for his sword. The mugger started begging for his life.

Sep 06 19:15:46 <Agincourtdb> Society for Creative Anachronism?

Sep 06 19:15:54 <Dan> Yeah.

Sep 06 19:16:36 <FlyingDragon> LOL!

Sep 06 19:16:52 <Dan> I don't know if it's a true story, but the guy told it as if it were.

Sep 06 19:16:57 <Agincourtdb> it's like, Crocodile Dundee meeets the Highlander

Sep 06 19:17:08 <Lensman> If it's not true, it *ought* to be!

Sep 06 19:18:32 <Dan> Big dude, looked like a pro football player. I wouldn't have wanted to go up against him with less than a flamethrower, myself. :)

Sep 06 19:18:36 <Lensman> What's the movie that starts with a voice-over: "I'm not going to tell it like it really happened. I'm going to tell it like I heard it."

Sep 06 19:19:06 <FlyingDragon> Everyone wants to be able to say something bad about the mugger,and nice things abotu the weirdos.

Sep 06 19:19:43 <Lensman> Sure.

Sep 06 19:20:00 <Dan> Well, having been a weirdo amongst weirdos, I have no particular axe to grind.

Sep 06 19:20:18 <Lensman> "We're all Bozos on this bus."

Sep 06 19:20:40 <Agincourtdb> ummm... Digg says the fed is about to seize Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae...

Sep 06 19:21:07 <Fred> a friend of mine just got into some SCA-type fighting games where they whack each other with rubber weapons until they all collapse from exhaustion

Sep 06 19:21:34 <FlyingDragon> Good exercise

Sep 06 19:21:35 <Lensman> Or the filk version of "Gypsys, Tramps and Thieves": "'Weirdo sci-fi freaks', we'd hear if from the folks at the hotel, they'd call us

Sep 06 19:21:46 <FlyingDragon> LOL!

Sep 06 19:21:52 <Lensman> 'Weirdo sci fi freaks"...

Sep 06 19:22:12 <Fred> but every night all the filk would come around

Sep 06 19:22:41 <Lensman> "But ev'ry night at the skinny dip, they'd come and hang around."

Sep 06 19:23:05 <Lensman> Of course, fen rarely do skinny dips in the hotel pool anymore. That was a seventies thing.

Sep 06 19:23:18 <Dan> Say what you like about Fen, but we spend good money en mass for hotel rooms at cons.

Sep 06 19:23:33 <Agincourtdb> so do appliance salesmen. :-)

Sep 06 19:23:56 <Dan> True, but we tend to bring our own women.

Sep 06 19:24:05 <Agincourtdb> hehe

Sep 06 19:24:15 <Agincourtdb> the salesmen just bring hookers

Sep 06 19:24:22 <Jim> Dan: less hookers

Sep 06 19:24:23 <FlyingDragon> Erwin Strauss is one of the weirder sci fi freaks!

Sep 06 19:24:24 <Lensman> Yah, the liquor stores love big SF cons, the hookers hate them.

Sep 06 19:24:53 <Agincourtdb> and comic book shops

Sep 06 19:25:06 <Jim> I knew this scientist who loved conferences for the hookers.

Sep 06 19:25:47 <Agincourtdb> hehe

Sep 06 19:25:49 <FlyingDragon> There certainly are all kinds of people.

Sep 06 19:26:14 <Agincourtdb> there's some sort of goth or fetish con in Baltimore annually

Sep 06 19:26:26 <Agincourtdb> we invariably have a gig on that weekend

Sep 06 19:26:33 <Agincourtdb> and see them walking around downtown

Sep 06 19:27:02 <Agincourtdb> good times

Sep 06 19:27:29 <Agincourtdb> I've always wondered what happens when groups of freaks (and I mean that in a good way) meet groups of purple-clad face-painted Ravens fans on the sidewalk

Sep 06 19:27:56 <Dan> A party, I hope.

Sep 06 19:28:31 <Agincourtdb> I think it can likely go either way

Sep 06 19:29:08 <Fred> here it is

Sep 06 19:29:15 <Fred>

Sep 06 19:29:16 <FlyingDragon> WHat do the freaks look like?

Sep 06 19:29:30 <Lensman> LOL! I once worked with a guy who always wore Goth. One day he was wearing a T-shirt that said "Depression Despair Agony" on the back. I cam up behind him and started singing "Gloom, despair, and agony on me, deep dark depression, excessive misery..." He turned around and gave me SUCH a look! I said "Well, that's what your T-shirt says, isn't it? ;)

Sep 06 19:29:46 <FlyingDragon> I'm not sure I could tell the purple clad face painted Raven fans from any of my other firends.

Sep 06 19:30:11 <Dan> Lensman, even Goths find Country Music depressing. LOL!

Sep 06 19:30:17 <FlyingDragon> Lens, so waht was the look for?

Sep 06 19:30:17 <Lensman> Fandom is a pretty big tent.

Sep 06 19:30:50 <Fred>

Sep 06 19:30:59 <Fred> watch them pummel each other

Sep 06 19:31:05 <FlyingDragon> He's asking to be teased, with a shirt like that, isn't he? I get depressed,a nd I find that honoring it a little, like with a shirt that invites teasing, helps alleviate it.

Sep 06 19:31:06 <Lensman> Carol: Have you never watched "Hee Haw"? That song is done in a very exaggerated hilbilly accent... done for laughs.

Sep 06 19:31:17 <FlyingDragon> I know the song.

Sep 06 19:31:26 <Lensman> Sorry.

Sep 06 19:31:29 <FlyingDragon> I'm old enough to have watched Hee Haw.

Sep 06 19:31:30 <Dan> Part of my childhood, Hee Haw was.

Sep 06 19:31:43 <FlyingDragon> If it weren't for bad luck I"d have no luck at all.....

Sep 06 19:31:43 <Dan> Almost biographical.

Sep 06 19:31:54 <Lensman> There you go.

Sep 06 19:32:09 <Lensman> No, obviously he was annoyed that I was poking fun at his Goth style.

Sep 06 19:32:27 <Lensman> Doncha know it's to be taken SERIOUSLY!!

Sep 06 19:32:29 <Dan> And Lil' Abner was downright documentary.

Sep 06 19:32:34 <FlyingDragon> Too bad for him. He should develop a scence of humor.

Sep 06 19:32:43 <Lensman> Most definitely.

Sep 06 19:32:52 <Agincourtdb> I am wearing a "Weyland-Yutani Crop: Building Better Worlds" T shirt right now

Sep 06 19:33:01 <Agincourtdb> that should be "Corp" obviously

Sep 06 19:33:18 <Fred> There's an obNiven "cloak of anarchy" reference in there

Sep 06 19:33:45 <Fred> the guy with the blank sign that got beat up for standing near anybody else, for mocking them

Sep 06 19:34:34 <Lensman> I have a very hard time taking Goths seriously. I mean it's *all* about style, no substance at all.

Sep 06 19:34:52 <Dan> I had a hard time explaining to my wife the "Lolita" side of Goth/Steampunk/Cosplay con-goers.

Sep 06 19:35:45 <Dan> Not that I understand that particular segment of fandom myself.

Sep 06 19:36:11 <Agincourtdb> you're just glad for the short skirts

Sep 06 19:36:28 <Lensman> I have a hard time understanding the Japanese attitude of "sexy-little-girl but not intended to provoke sexual thoughts" too.

Sep 06 19:36:37 <Dan> Hey, I'm an old man, but I'm a happily dirty old man!

Sep 06 19:36:47 <Agincourtdb> the "not intended to provoke sexual thoughts" is a pose

Sep 06 19:36:57 <Agincourtdb> it's ignoring the elephant

Sep 06 19:38:02 <FlyingDragon> THat is the "Girl in underwear wtih big man on a leash"?

Sep 06 19:38:05 <Lensman> And yet I'm told the Japanese are *not* into pedophilia. I dunno *shrug*. I find Japanese culture interesting because it's so alien, I don't pretend to understand it well.

Sep 06 19:38:40 <Agincourtdb> it's like everyone at a dinner party ignoring a fart: it's less uncomfortable than calling attention to it would be

Sep 06 19:39:05 <Fred> Have I told you my story about when I was approached to supervise animation in Asia?

Sep 06 19:39:14 <Dan> No.

Sep 06 19:39:17 <Agincourtdb> well... a wierdly high percentage of Japanese-produced porn is schoolgirl themed so... make of that what you will. hehe

Sep 06 19:39:18 <Lensman> No.

Sep 06 19:39:29 <Fred> Should I?

Sep 06 19:39:36 <Agincourtdb> sure

Sep 06 19:39:51 <Lensman> Can we stop you? :) Sure go ahead.

Sep 06 19:40:20 <FlyingDragon> Yes, tell. WHat is Lolita?

Sep 06 19:40:44 <Fred> Okay, the way the traditional Saturday morning stuff was done was, we do script and storyboard and soundtrack here, and make timing sheets with little pictorgraphs 'cause nobdoy reads English

Sep 06 19:40:53 <Jim> The Japanese term is Lolicon.

Sep 06 19:41:15 <Fred> So my predecessor tells me this stoy of his first week

Sep 06 19:41:18 <Dan> Carol, a grown woman dressed up like a little girl - sort of like a Sailor Moon fan.

Sep 06 19:41:20 <Lensman>

Sep 06 19:41:41 <Fred> They're doing a commercial for a cereal with a cartoon bee on the box

Sep 06 19:41:57 <Fred> bee's wings have white outlines

Sep 06 19:42:16 <Fred> animation keeps coming back with black outlines

Sep 06 19:42:31 <Fred> they do this over and over and over

Sep 06 19:42:51 <Fred> finally he reads them the riot act. Outlines MUST be white

Sep 06 19:43:10 <Fred> finally the animation comes back. wings have white outlines!

Sep 06 19:43:17 <Fred> but

Sep 06 19:43:24 <Lensman> Oh I think I see where this is going...

Sep 06 19:43:39 <Fred> the bee is now wearing an ascot

Sep 06 19:43:51 <Lensman> ...or not!

Sep 06 19:43:56 <Agincourtdb> Fred: you should rent and watch (with commentary) the Clerks animated cartoon... Kevin Smith and the other producer tell a bunch of funny stories about dealing with the Korean animators.

Sep 06 19:44:01 <Agincourtdb> an ascot??

Sep 06 19:44:22 <Fred> finally he gets out of the supervisor that it's a cultural thing

Sep 06 19:44:34 <Fred> they don't do as they're told

Sep 06 19:44:46 <Fred> they get to make 'a change'

Sep 06 19:45:06 <Fred> they had chosen for their change on this project, the wing color

Sep 06 19:45:28 <Fred> since he denied them that, they now chose to ad an ascot instead

Sep 06 19:45:41 <Agincourtdb> lol

Sep 06 19:45:47 <Fred> he settled for the black wings

Sep 06 19:46:15 <Fred> I told them I was *not* the person for that job, 'cause there would have been bloodshed

Sep 06 19:46:39 <Dan> Could have been worse. They could have put the bee in a bulging speedo...

Sep 06 19:47:18 <Fred> who knows? they get to make an arbitrary change; that could well have been what they'd have done on the second job

Sep 06 19:47:53 <Fred> anyway, that's what I thought of when Lens said he'd given up trying to understand alien cultures

Sep 06 19:48:10 <FlyingDragon> Theese were Japanese, Fred?

Sep 06 19:48:43 <Dan> I'm glad you told that. I think I understand Japanimation a little better now.

Sep 06 19:49:02 <Fred> I'm trying to remember; they worked with several countries. Either Japan or Sinapore I'd guess

Sep 06 19:50:53 <Fred> Animation spread through the area, one country at a time. The next country down would offer to do it for a fraction of the current country.

Sep 06 19:51:17 <Fred> Finally got to where the Chinese just did stuff for free. Seriously.

Sep 06 19:51:19 <Lensman> There's definitely a cultural barrier there. Japanese, Chinese and Korean all share a similar cultural background. Because embarrassment is the ultimate social faux pas, they avoid giving a direct "no" to anything. This makes it rather frustrating because they'll never tell you "You can't do that."

Sep 06 19:52:42 <FlyingDragon> We joke about this. Masters say "Not yet" when they mean "No" or "when hell freezes over" but also wehn they mean"later". It can be a problem for us lowly students!

Sep 06 19:53:35 <Dan> Exactly the opposite of the way we have to cope with the factory's European management. It's gotten to the point now that when the German plant manager comes around into the work area, I just go ahead and ask him what freakin' law of physics he want's me to break *this* week.

Sep 06 19:54:01 <Lensman> There was one incident in filming "Shogun", the miniseries, where they kept trying to schedule a shoot for a certain day. At least part of the film, much of it, was shot in Japan. Anyway, their hosts/ contacts kept coming up with problems for filming on that day. They couldn't arrange to rent a truck, I don't remember what the other reasons were. Anyway, they wound up not being able to shoot in that day. Only later did they learn it was the Empero

Sep 06 19:56:13 <FlyingDragon> "it was the Empero...."

Sep 06 19:56:52 <Lensman> I *think* I have that right, Carol. Possibly mis-remembering.

Sep 06 19:57:01 <Agincourtdb> It was the Emperor penguin's will that they bring him fish that day

Sep 06 19:57:04 <Lensman> Oh, it got cut off?

Sep 06 19:57:07 <Dan> Emperor's Birthday?

Sep 06 19:57:20 <Lensman> It was the Emperor's Birthday, and no Japanese was working that day!

Sep 06 19:57:33 <Dan> Ah, I see.

Sep 06 19:57:39 <FlyingDragon> You'd THINK they could just say "nothing happens that day, sir."

Sep 06 19:57:45 <Agincourtdb> you'd think

Sep 06 19:57:49 <Fred> The Empero Strikes Back

Sep 06 19:58:01 <Lensman> Irksome when I see all my post but y'all see it cut off!

Sep 06 19:58:04 <Dan> "It's a HOLIDAY, round-eyes!"

Sep 06 19:58:36 <Lensman> LOL Yeah, that would be blunt enough.

Sep 06 19:58:49 <Agincourtdb> ObNiven: In Protector, when Truesdale recounts how Brennan explained to him why he didn't understand the Home novel...

Sep 06 19:59:36 <Fred> We had to abandon what would have been would a wonderful project this summer because there was no way to work with the factory in China that the client insisted on using.

Sep 06 19:59:36 <Lensman> I remember that only VERY vaguely.

Sep 06 20:00:16 <Agincourtdb> there were all sorts of cultural assumptions that Truesdale wasn't getting because he wasn't from Home

Sep 06 20:00:25 <Agincourtdb> something about walking on the grass being a crime

Sep 06 20:00:41 <FlyingDragon> Fred, why had it be that factory, and why could it NOT be that factory?

Sep 06 20:01:06 <Fred> execute Wesley Crusher! He walked on the grass!

Sep 06 20:01:23 <Agincourtdb> oh, no, Wesley crushed a glass-enclosed flower bed

Sep 06 20:01:28 <Agincourtdb> hence his name

Sep 06 20:01:51 <Fred> Carol, client's client's client insisted on that one factory. No idea why.

Sep 06 20:02:07 <Agincourtdb> Fred: kickbacks ;-)

Sep 06 20:02:08 <Lensman> Yes, even in an exceptionally stupid TV series, that was an exceptionally stupid episode.

Sep 06 20:02:33 <Fred> Nobody spoke English, and they apparently weren't capable of doing ANY work

Sep 06 20:02:37 <Agincourtdb> oh, they had some brilliant moments. That was just most definitely not one of them

Sep 06 20:02:41 <Lensman> Oh darn, Agin got there first. Sure, kickbacks!

Sep 06 20:02:54 * Agincourtdb types fast

Sep 06 20:03:25 <Fred> And all files had to be delivered in an obsolete version of specific software; we assume they were running a krak

Sep 06 20:03:42 <Lensman> What is "krak" ?

Sep 06 20:03:59 <Agincourtdb> cracked software. Pirated copy

Sep 06 20:04:07 <Fred> illegal copy

Sep 06 20:04:11 <Lensman> Thanx

Sep 06 20:04:21 * Dan thinks it is time to see if he corectly glued the Captain's stripes on the collar of his steampunk airship captain costume.

Sep 06 20:04:38 <Agincourtdb> now there's a sentence you don't see every day

Sep 06 20:04:59 <Lensman> LOL

Sep 06 20:05:13 <Fred> It's like if somebody tells you that the manuscript MUST be delivered in Wordv3, you smell trouble

Sep 06 20:05:48 <Lensman> Having worked with Word, it would never have occurred to me.

Sep 06 20:06:24 <Dan> OK, it looks as if I don't have to peel the stripes off and re-glue them.

Sep 06 20:06:33 <Agincourtdb> I own an expensive piece of music recording software and I frequent the forums a lot... often we'll get someone with 1 or 2 post count asking for a manual to a build that's been superceded for like two or three years

Sep 06 20:06:34 <Dan> Whew!

Sep 06 20:06:47 <Fred> if they specified the old version nobody uses?

Sep 06 20:06:55 <Agincourtdb> and it's like, could you be more obvious?

Sep 06 20:07:20 <Lensman> I'm still using WordPerfect 7. Why should I pay to upgrade? It does everything I need it to.

Sep 06 20:07:31 <Lensman> And it's a legal copy, thank you.

Sep 06 20:07:39 <Fred> yep

Sep 06 20:07:43 <Agincourtdb> sure, but when they say they 'just got it' or 'I just aquired' or 'I recieved'

Sep 06 20:07:56 <Lensman> O I C

Sep 06 20:08:18 <FlyingDragon> It was on an old computer someone gave me. COuld be true!!

Sep 06 20:08:19 <Agincourtdb> and the irony is, the software contains the manual in pdf form, lol.

Sep 06 20:08:36 <Fred> or they're running a mill with the old version of a $5k package

Sep 06 20:08:39 <Agincourtdb> FD: they still wouldn't own the liscense for the software

Sep 06 20:09:00 <Lensman> Well I do actually have a paper manual... that's one thing I love about old software! I hate on-disc manuals.

Sep 06 20:09:06 <Agincourtdb> me too

Sep 06 20:09:25 <Agincourtdb> Sonar went from having a big beautiful manual to a 'getting started guide'

Sep 06 20:09:27 <Agincourtdb> bah

Sep 06 20:09:29 <Dan> Like the time I was given a shrink-wrapped copy of Word 6, but the discs for the spell check, grammer check, and some other features weren't in the box. Someone forgot to put those back in when they took the copy I got back to the store for a refund.

Sep 06 20:10:04 <Agincourtdb> used to be 600 pages

Sep 06 20:10:25 <Dan> Or the flight sim I got from Best Buy that was shrink wrapped, but it had a virus on the discs.

Sep 06 20:10:38 <FlyingDragon> How did that happen, Dan?

Sep 06 20:10:49 <Lensman> Not that I ever look at the manual anymore, but it certainly is nice to have one when you're first learning how to use a piece of software! I have a pirate copy of PhotoShop... Great Ghu I wish I had a real manual for it! I can hardly figure out how to do anything with it. Obviously it will sing, dance and do the dishes, but I don't know how to use it.

Sep 06 20:11:14 <Dan> Someone bought it, then took it back. The store put fresh shrink wrap on it and I bought it thinking it was new.

Sep 06 20:11:28 <Lensman> Dan: Wow!

Sep 06 20:11:59 <Agincourtdb> it's fairly common that you can no longer return software... for precisely this reason

Sep 06 20:12:01 <Dan> Best Buy is infamous for putting returned software back on the shelves to sell to the unwary.

Sep 06 20:13:41 <Fred> Yeah, anybody that takes stuff back and requires all the packing materials be there is clearly doing something sneaky

Sep 06 20:14:30 <FlyingDragon> What gripes me is when you buy softwear, they say no returns on copywrited material, and hte softwear doesn't work! If it was a book with pages missing htey woudl take it back!!!!!

Sep 06 20:15:27 <Agincourtdb> open box EULAs are unenforceable

Sep 06 20:15:35 <Agincourtdb> the thing is, nobody sues to get their money back

Sep 06 20:15:43 <Dan> Agincourt, I have a copy of Cakewalk that is pretty much useless to me. The learning curve is too steep for my level of expertise. I know that it will do everything I wanted it to do,but I can't figure out *how* to make it work. All I really wanted was something that would allow me to compose in sheet music notation, or display sheet music notation for notes I click into it.

Sep 06 20:16:03 <Agincourtdb> yeah Cakewalk is not your best bet for that

Sep 06 20:16:19 <Agincourtdb> you want Finale Allegro or whatever the cut-down version of Sibelius is

Sep 06 20:16:30 <Dan> But it was the only thing in the store that would display sheet music notation.

Sep 06 20:16:43 <Agincourtdb> what version do you have?

Sep 06 20:16:46 <Agincourtdb> Cakewalk Express?

Sep 06 20:16:57 <FlyingDragon> EULA?

Sep 06 20:16:59 <Agincourtdb> or Cakewalk Pro Audio?

Sep 06 20:17:01 <Dan> Don't recall ATM. Let me check.

Sep 06 20:17:05 <Agincourtdb> End User License Agreement

Sep 06 20:17:28 <Lensman> Is there any freeware that will let you compose sheet music, and do it right? I'd like to be able to do that too.

Sep 06 20:17:28 <Dan> Music Creator 3

Sep 06 20:17:36 <Agincourtdb> yeah

Sep 06 20:17:52 <Jim> What is Cakewalk Express or Cakewalk Pro Audio or Music Creator 3?

Sep 06 20:17:57 <Agincourtdb> Music Creator is a consumer-level cut down of the Sonar Line

Sep 06 20:18:03 <Agincourtdb> you want a notation program

Sep 06 20:18:10 <Agincourtdb> I don't think there's any good open-source or freeware

Sep 06 20:18:16 <Agincourtdb> but Finale Allegro is relatively cheao

Sep 06 20:18:18 <Agincourtdb> cheap

Sep 06 20:18:22 <Jim> OK

Sep 06 20:18:32 <FlyingDragon> WEll, when I went to Walmart and complained that I installed my kids game correctly, I have a degree adn my husband is a rocket scientist and I want my money back I know how to install softwear and use a kiddie game and this doesn't work and a book is copy writed adn it it wasn't printed right you would give me my money back and I don't want another copy of this game give me my money back, they got tired of dealing wtih me and gave me my money back.

Sep 06 20:18:34 <Dan> I had a copy of Music Time, but I bought it in the '90s. It was all I really needed, but the discs became corrupted as they say on my shelves for many years.

Sep 06 20:18:49 <Agincourtdb> I have the full version of Finale also so I haven't researched the recent stuff

Sep 06 20:18:50 <Lensman> Long ago I edited together a collection of Christmas Song Lyrics for my relatives as an Xmas present. It was well received. But done on a dot-matrix printer! I've been wanting to do an update with actual 4-part harmony sheet music.

Sep 06 20:19:06 <Jim> Carol, WalMart is normally good about returns.

Sep 06 20:19:48 <Fred> just last Xmas I was at a COX cable office that had a sign in the window they'd made on a dot matrix printer

Sep 06 20:19:57 <FlyingDragon> I heard "Softwear isn't returnable" many times before they took it.

Sep 06 20:20:10 <Agincourtdb> Finale Allegro appears to have a $150 street price

Sep 06 20:20:13 <FlyingDragon> THose things still work?????

Sep 06 20:20:24 <Agincourtdb> don't buy it from their website, it's $200 there

Sep 06 20:20:26 <Jim> I tend not to buy software or hardware at WalMart

Sep 06 20:20:42 <Fred> Inch high letters made of about 12 pixels

Sep 06 20:20:44 <Dan> I once got my copy of Cakewalk Music Creator 3 to record from my MIDI guitar and display the sheet music for me to edit, but I've never been able to duplicate that again, LOL!

Sep 06 20:21:01 <Agincourtdb> Finale PrintMusic might be more the right speed, it's $99 on their website

Sep 06 20:21:26 <Agincourtdb> and $80 at Musician's Friend

Sep 06 20:22:33 <Jim> The prices you all have quoted for software is still pretty cheap compared to ArcGIS. I am running a pirate copy of ArcGIS because the legal copy would cost $10,000.

Sep 06 20:22:46 <Lensman> Any programmers here? I tried to do the cover for my Xmas Song Lyrics booklet as a graphic on an Epsom dot-matrix printer. You can use control codes to cause individual pins to fire. But I gave it up because the line feed was a bit erratic and so the spread between lines was uneven. It was much faster and simpler to photocopy letters out of a font book I had, and do a manual paste-up for the cover. Even photocopied, it looked nicer than a dot-matr

Sep 06 20:22:52 <Agincourtdb> I have no idea what arcGIS is

Sep 06 20:23:11 <Dan> What I need is something that will accept input from a mouse, MIDI keyboard, or MIDI guitar, and allow me to see the sheet music notation to edit it. My copy of Cakewalk is more like a recording studio in a box - but with the crowbar to open the box packed inside the box, so to speak.

Sep 06 20:23:12 <Agincourtdb> oh, "enterprise software"

Sep 06 20:23:13 <Agincourtdb> yeah

Sep 06 20:23:36 <Agincourtdb> Dan: Final PrintMusic will, I believe, do that for you

Sep 06 20:23:43 <Agincourtdb> and it'll look 'engraved'

Sep 06 20:23:51 <Agincourtdb> i.e., professionally printed

Sep 06 20:24:20 <Lensman> Convert keyboard input directly to sheet music notation? I've wondered if anyone did that, it seems like it should be possible.

Sep 06 20:24:26 <Agincourtdb>

Sep 06 20:24:30 <Jim> GIS: Geographic Information System -

Sep 06 20:24:36 <Agincourtdb> Lens: MIDI keyboard

Sep 06 20:24:41 <Agincourtdb> i.e., piano

Sep 06 20:24:53 <Lensman> I have a Yamaha keyboard.

Sep 06 20:25:07 <Dan> I used to do it with Music Time, but as I said, the discs became corrupted as they aged.

Sep 06 20:25:34 <Agincourtdb> if it has a MIDI out, you could hook it up to your computer and Finale would 'transcribe' what you are playing as MIDI messages

Sep 06 20:25:51 <Lensman> But I'm so out of practice with playing piano... it would be easier just to write the music from scratch.

Sep 06 20:26:46 <Fred> gonna go play with Mom

Sep 06 20:27:23 <Lensman> Well, it wouldn't really be from scratch, I've got a large collection of Christmas Carol books. But I'd like to be able to convert them to a standardized sheet music format.

Sep 06 20:27:24 <FlyingDragon> see you

Sep 06 20:27:38 <Lensman> Bye Fred.

Sep 06 20:27:54 <Agincourtdb> bye Fred

Sep 06 20:28:04 <Jim> bye Fred

Sep 06 20:29:20 <Dan> Bye, Fred!

Sep 06 20:31:03 <Jim> Speaking of Piracy: someone on the list mentioned a BBC program that was available via uTorrent. That led me to be introduced to the dark world of music piracy. I downloaded the complete Kinks discography.

Sep 06 20:31:43 <Agincourtdb> for SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME.

Sep 06 20:31:44 <Agincourtdb> j/k

Sep 06 20:31:45 <Jim> Recently, I have tried to purchase what I had illegally downloaded, but could not buy certain albums.

Sep 06 20:31:58 <Agincourtdb> All my software is legit

Sep 06 20:32:03 <Agincourtdb> but I have to admit downloading music

Sep 06 20:32:12 <Dan> Yeah, Agincourt... If I had been able to find a "plug the MIDI instrument in and play to write your sheet music" sort of program, I wouldn't have gotten so frustrated with Cakewalk. I *know* it'll do what I want it to do, but I can't figure out how many chickens it wants me to sacrifice before it'll work.

Sep 06 20:32:52 <Agincourtdb> Well, I mean, Cakewalk will do that, but it's not what the program is for, and it's harder because there's far more options

Sep 06 20:33:29 <Agincourtdb> And the end result is certainly not engraver quality

Sep 06 20:33:50 <Agincourtdb> it's more so you can have a notation-based way to edit your recorded MIDI

Sep 06 20:35:02 <Dan> That's what I want. I could care less about how it looks printed out, actually.

Sep 06 20:35:30 <Agincourtdb> is your keyboard USB

Sep 06 20:35:38 <Agincourtdb> or are you going into a MIDI input on a sound card?

Sep 06 20:35:49 <Lensman> Well, until recently I could claim all my music was legit, but then I stumbled across a soundtrack album for Disney's "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea". Oddly that was never released commercially, altho apparently it was given away as a free promo for... I think it was for the opening of Japan's Disneyland. Anyway, I have a friend who's an enormous fand of the movie, and I *knew* this was something he had... and while supervising the group effort it too

Sep 06 20:35:53 <Dan> No, just MIDI, but my MIDI guitar is USB.

Sep 06 20:36:32 <Agincourtdb> ok. That means the guitar itself is a MIDI interface, and is sending MIDI via USB, which makes it simpler.

Sep 06 20:36:55 <Dan> But the guitar uses an adapter box, so it might be possible to run the keyboard through its MIDI ports and into the computer thru its USB output.

Sep 06 20:37:13 <Lensman> I mean I knew this was something my friend did *not* have. I must be getting tired.

Sep 06 20:37:23 <Agincourtdb> if it has a MIDI 'in' you can yes

Sep 06 20:37:46 <Dan> Yep, the adapter has a MIDI in and out.

Sep 06 20:38:20 <Agincourtdb> so you'd plug a MIDI cable into your keyboard's MIDI out, and into the adapters MIDI in.

Sep 06 20:38:56 <Agincourtdb> then in Music Creator, you'd make sure that it recognized your adapter under MIDI devices

Sep 06 20:39:22 <Agincourtdb> you'd create a MIDI track, select that adapter's MIDI in as the source, and hit record.

Sep 06 20:39:24 <Agincourtdb> In theory

Sep 06 20:39:26 <Agincourtdb> that should work

Sep 06 20:39:32 <Dan> Yep, done that. Back in the garage band days I had 4 MIDI keyboards, and a drum machine daisy-chained together.

Sep 06 20:39:45 <Agincourtdb> hehe ok so you're way ahead of me here

Sep 06 20:40:02 <Agincourtdb> what is the problem you're having?

Sep 06 20:40:05 <Agincourtdb> specifically?

Sep 06 20:40:32 * Agincourtdb is Unoffical Cakewalk Technical Support ;-)

Sep 06 20:40:36 <Dan> Yeah, I got Cakewalk to work the way I wanted to, by accident, just once. I need to figure out how to reliably recreat that happy accident.

Sep 06 20:40:44 <Agincourtdb> hehe

Sep 06 20:41:11 <Agincourtdb> it's complicated, that's for sure

Sep 06 20:41:41 <Agincourtdb> My rig stays hooked up at all times so once it's working it works

Sep 06 20:41:42 <Dan> The problem I'm having is just that Cakewalk does so many bloody things that I can't remember how to get it to do the *one* thing I bought it for. LOL!

Sep 06 20:41:56 <Agincourtdb> right, I feel you on that

Sep 06 20:42:19 <Agincourtdb> Sonar is even more complicated... took me a year to get comfortable and I'm only now after 4 years geting really good at it

Sep 06 20:42:27 <Agincourtdb> and I don't even use half of the features

Sep 06 20:42:45 <Dan> Plus, I can't leave the entire rig wired up because I don't really have room in my office for it all.

Sep 06 20:42:58 <Agincourtdb> for example, I do all my MIDI stuff in Project 5, and only use Sonar for Audio

Sep 06 20:44:04 <Agincourtdb> my rig *is* my office hehe

Sep 06 20:44:16 <Lensman> It's like PhotoShop. It's *so* full of features, that I can't use most of it. So I wind up using Corel Presentations for much of my graphic work. It's much more limited, but I know what it will do and how to make it do what it can.

Sep 06 20:44:28 <Agincourtdb> yeah exactly

Sep 06 20:44:55 <Dan> I really ought to work a couple of month's worth of overtime and buy another outbuilding to use as a studio.

Sep 06 20:44:58 <Agincourtdb> that's why I use Project 5 for MIDI... it's just easier. Though it doesn't do notation at all

Sep 06 20:46:47 <Lensman> Somebody gave me a copy of PhotoShop because he wanted me to help him with a project, and he gave me very specific instructions on how to de what I needed to do. I have only learned how to do a few things with it since. One thing I can do is use it to crop pictures to an exact pixel size, and to reduce them to a specific size. That's very handy for adding graphics to my websites.

Sep 06 20:47:18 <Agincourtdb> I use Thumbsplus... great gallery management, good image tools

Sep 06 20:47:31 <Agincourtdb> it doesn't do the whole 'create an image' thing though

Sep 06 20:47:51 <Agincourtdb> I would like something like that to do album covers, but... the guy that does mine is amazing

Sep 06 20:47:55 <Lensman> Now, if only I could figure out how to do text properly in PhotoShop, that would be very nice!

Sep 06 20:48:14 <Agincourtdb> have you seen the whole "You Suck At Photoshop" thing on Youtube?

Sep 06 20:48:16 <Agincourtdb> hilarious

Sep 06 20:48:32 <Agincourtdb> watch them in order though

Sep 06 20:48:40 <Lensman> Nope, thanx for the tip.

Sep 06 20:48:46 <Agincourtdb> oh you're gonna LOVE it

Sep 06 20:49:13 <Agincourtdb>

Sep 06 20:52:21 <Dan> Lensman, check into the shareware version of L-View. I got a copy back when it was freeware and it'll do loads of nice things with images. The only thing I dislike about it is that you're restricted to square or rectangular cropping/copying/pasting masks.

Sep 06 20:52:53 <Dan> But it does text in images really well.

Sep 06 20:53:22 <FlyingDragon> Getting off the computer now. CU guys!

Sep 06 20:53:45 <Dan> The not-shareware version is about $100.

Sep 06 20:53:56 <Dan> Bye Carol, sorry to have bored you.

Sep 06 20:54:48 <FlyingDragon> Butt hurts from sitting

Sep 06 20:54:48 <Agincourtdb> night carol

Sep 06 20:55:17 <FlyingDragon> Son is roaming borred. Need to herd him. Daughter is out ice skating. May have to go babysit.

Sep 06 20:57:10 <Jim> bye

Sep 06 20:57:18 <Jim> bye Carol

Sep 06 20:57:27 <Dan> Another thing I need to do is buy a new Mustek scanner, and pray that it comes with a copy of Micrographics. That was the Photoshop of the late '90s.

Sep 06 20:57:37 <Lensman> I can do text in images with either Corel Presentations or Open Office... what is it, "Presents"? "Presentations"? Whatever, the clone of PowerPoint.

Sep 06 20:58:26 <Dan> Never heard of it. I try to use as few Microsoft programs as I possibly can.

Sep 06 20:59:21 <Lensman> I'd like to be able to do it directly in PhotoShop. As it is, everytime I add a text box it treats it as a separate layer and then I can't work with it. So then I have to save the file as a .bmp or .jpg or whatever, so I can work with it, but then I can no longer edit the text. I'm sure there's a way to do it, I just don't know how.

Sep 06 21:00:08 <Lensman> I have NO idea what version of PhotoShop that guy is using for "You Suck at PhotoShop". Doesn't look *anything* like the interface in my version.

Sep 06 21:00:30 <Dan> Well, L-View won't let you edit text after you've pasted it in. Sorry, I misunderstood.

Sep 06 21:00:35 <Agincourtdb> it's Mac, for one

Sep 06 21:01:30 <Lensman> I don't do Mac. Not 'cuz I don't like it, just because... well, you know why.

Sep 06 21:01:46 * Agincourtdb doesn't do Mac either

Sep 06 21:01:50 <Agincourtdb> or only with cheese

Sep 06 21:02:58 <Lensman> I'm an old die-hard Apple IIGS fan who's STILL ticked off at Apple for abandoning the II line.

Sep 06 21:04:06 <Jim> Lensman: what was the user interface for the II line like?

Sep 06 21:04:17 <Agincourtdb> my dad worked for IBM so Apple never entered our house until this year when I finally bought an iPod

Sep 06 21:04:19 <Agincourtdb> hehe

Sep 06 21:04:27 <Lensman> Apple II was the most user-friendly computer I ever used, and I still miss it. I still have my Colonial Conquest game I'd love to be able to play, but can't. Never seen any grand strategy game which was so fun but could be played in such a short time, and never have been able to get it to run under a Windoz emulator

Sep 06 21:06:25 <Lensman> Jim: Well, there was no distinction between BASIC and the DOS system. They both ran simultaneously. So you could write a BASIC program which used DOS commands if you wanted to. Of course BASIC was a horrible memory hog, so you couldn't do anything complex, but it was great if you wanted to write a little routine to be able to do something specific.

Sep 06 21:07:01 <Lensman> And the thing would boot in just a few seconds.

Sep 06 21:09:20 <Lensman> And actually I didn't mind using Assembler to write programs. It took longer than with a high-level language, but I always enjoyed getting down to nearly the nuts-and-bolts level of how the computer worked.

Sep 06 21:09:27 <Dan> Lens, sounds like DOS batch files. Coooorrr! Haven't thought about batch files since Win '95 came out!

Sep 06 21:10:29 <Dan> Oops, I'm about two entries behind Lensman's posts.

Sep 06 21:11:10 <Dan> Sorry, my wife was in here talking about the Pink Floyd documentary that she's watching in the living room. I got distracted.

Sep 06 21:11:11 <Lensman> I wrote my own batch file program to do a database. This was before the IBM PC came along. The Apple II had Appleworks, which included a database program-- it was the MS Office of its era-- but I wanted to be able to do thinkg in specific formats for printouts, so I just wrote my own database program.

Sep 06 21:12:13 <Agincourtdb> I'm hitting the road

Sep 06 21:12:19 <Agincourtdb> talk to you guys later :-)

Sep 06 21:12:20 <Lensman> Bye Aggie.

Sep 06 21:12:28 <Jim> bye Aggie

Sep 06 21:12:31 <Dan> Night, Agincourt! Thanks for the help!

Sep 06 21:12:31 * Agincourtdb has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Sep 06 21:13:05 <Lensman> I think this conversation has gotten too technical for general interest, sorry.

Sep 06 21:13:47 <Dan> LOL!

Sep 06 21:15:10 <Dan> OK, as a change of subject, I think I got the captain's collar stripes right on my steampunk airship captain uniform. All I know is that I'm not peeling the bloody things off and re-glueing them!

Sep 06 21:15:25 <Lensman> I can't tell who's still here... my list still shows FlyingDragon and Fred, and they're both gone.

Sep 06 21:15:51 <Lensman> Got any pictures of your uniform/ costume you can share?

Sep 06 21:15:52 <Jim> Dan, please post a photo of you in the completed uniform

Sep 06 21:15:56 <Dan> "Missing, presumed Fred..."

Sep 06 21:16:23 <Dan> I have a pic from the con Lyn and I went to in July...

Sep 06 21:17:32 <Dan>

Sep 06 21:17:51 <Dan> My Live Journal post about the con, with a few photos.

Sep 06 21:20:08 <Jim> Dan, where is LibertyCon?

Sep 06 21:21:12 <Dan> Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Sep 06 21:21:43 <Lensman> Very nice! Now you just need someone to PhotoShop you into the proper setting. A screen shot from "The Eagle has Landed" or "Sky Captain", perhaps?

Sep 06 21:21:47 <Dan> About three hours drive from where Lyn and I live.

Sep 06 21:22:33 <Lensman> Or "The Rocketeer", that probably has more opportunities.

Sep 06 21:23:02 <Dan> Actually, if I could find a good photo of a zepplin landing, or at anchor - one I could paste in my own text for the name and serial number.

Sep 06 21:24:18 <Dan> One thing about steampunk, there are a lot of folks who wish that they were airship pirates. Well, I decided that my character would be someone who hunted pirates. LOL!

Sep 06 21:25:14 <Lensman> Dan: I'll look for a photo for you. Are you on the Niven list?

Sep 06 21:26:11 <Dan> And I'm still working on that alternate universe story with this character as the hero. You remember, you looked up some links for me as to Mars close approaches so that I could add in the HG Wells Martians.

Sep 06 21:26:23 <Dan> Sure am.

Sep 06 21:26:47 <Dan>

Sep 06 21:27:11 <Dan> I post under my real name. Dan Hollifield.

Sep 06 21:27:40 <Lensman> Okay, thanx for the e-mail addy. I wasn't gonna ask for that directly, since I never post my addy anywhere it will appear on a website.

Sep 06 21:28:34 <Dan> Not a problem. My e-mail has been online since 1995, too late for me to reconsider. LOL!

Sep 06 21:29:37 <Dan> My e-zine requires me to be highly visible as far as e-mail goes.

Sep 06 21:30:21 <Lensman> I've actually gone to the trouble of making up graphics to display my addy on my web pages, so I can show that without having Web spiders copy it.

Sep 06 21:30:23 <Dan> I just filter and delete the spam and pray that I don't lose too many real messages from folks.

Sep 06 21:30:46 <Lensman> I hardly ever look in my spam folder. I've got Thunderbird trained pretty well.

Sep 06 21:31:38 <Lensman> "Vila Resthal". An in-joke? Anagram?

Sep 06 21:31:45 <Dan> Too late for that for me. I've been on every spammer's list for damn near 14 years now. I only wish we could organ-bank the spammers.

Sep 06 21:31:56 <Lensman> I'd vote for that!

Sep 06 21:32:45 <Jim> I think there was a spammer in Russia that got murdered from someone who was tired of the messages.

Sep 06 21:32:48 <Lensman> Spam has been much less of a problem for me since my ISP improved their spam filters.

Sep 06 21:33:04 <Dan> Vila Restal is a character from the British SF series Blake's 7. I added the H into the spelling because that's the way I "heard" the character say his name. I've just stuck with it over the years.

Sep 06 21:33:41 <Lensman> Ah. I've seen a few episodes from first season, don't recognize the name.

Sep 06 21:33:47 <Dan> Being a fan of English SF TV is a fun hobby.

Sep 06 21:34:30 <Dan> Vila appears in the second episode, as I recall. He lasts far longer than Blake himself, LOL!

Sep 06 21:35:06 <Dan> Vila is the cowardly thief of the Blake's 7 crew.

Sep 06 21:36:00 <Lensman> Yes it is! Wish I had the money to collect more DVDs. I have the "Emma Peel" megaset from "The Avengers", the complete "Monty Python's Flying Circus", the complete "The Prisoner" series, and a two-disc set of "Thunderbirds". I think that's all. I'd love to get "Red Dwarf", as well as the Honor Blackman and Tara King "Avenger" episodes.

Sep 06 21:36:41 <Lensman> Oh, he's the thief? I thought that character's name started with an "A". My bad!

Sep 06 21:37:04 <Jim> I have all of the Stargate SG-1 DVD's.

Sep 06 21:37:32 <Dan> That would be Avon, the manic/depressive computer programmer.

Sep 06 21:37:34 <Lensman> Or I should say... I'd love to get "Red Dwarf" minus the first season, which was pretty boring.

Sep 06 21:37:50 <Jim> Also all of the Stargate Atlantis DVD's, all of the B5 DVD's, plus a lot of movies

Sep 06 21:38:06 <Lensman> And I'd love to see some of the Gerry Anderson stuff I've never seen, such as "Joe 90" and "Captain Scarlet".

Sep 06 21:39:29 <Dan> I managed to get all of Red Dwarf except for some of the specials. And I bought the original Captain Scarlet, UFO, Fireball XL-5, and found downloads of Supercar and the animated Captain Scarlet.

Sep 06 21:39:30 <Lensman> Yah, but I thought we were talking Brit TV. I've got some Trek and some Buffy, some "The Simpsons", the "Mr. Bill" show.

Sep 06 21:40:17 <Jim> ok

Sep 06 21:40:17 <Lensman> I've seen a couple of episodes of "Supercar" recently. I don't think I'd want to sit thru all of those again.

Sep 06 21:40:23 <Dan> Plus I'd videotaped almost all 27 years of the original Doctor Who.

Sep 06 21:40:30 <Jim> what was supercar?

Sep 06 21:40:39 <Dan> Supercar is OK in small doses.

Sep 06 21:41:18 <Lensman> "Supercar" was another Gerry Anderson "Supermarionation" series. Like "Thunderbirds", "Fireball XL-5", "Stingray" and others.

Sep 06 21:41:33 <Dan> Supercar was another Gerry Anderson supermarionation puppet animated show, like Thunderbirds, but older and more primative.

Sep 06 21:41:36 <Lensman> Supercar was a flying car.

Sep 06 21:42:24 <Dan> Flying car that was also a submarine, and a car without wheels... Kind of oddball, really.

Sep 06 21:42:28 <Lensman> Was Supercar the one with Mike Murphy and the chimp? No, not for me thanx.

Sep 06 21:42:50 <Dan> Mike Mercury, and yes, that one also had the chimp.

Sep 06 21:43:59 <Jim> Well, I am tired of being at the computer. I will catch you later.

Sep 06 21:44:02 <Jim> bye

Sep 06 21:44:28 <Dan> As a fannish aside, I wish Gerry Anderson would do a pupped version of another season of UFO that ties the series to Captain Scarlet and Thunderbirds.

Sep 06 21:44:37 <Dan> Goodnight, Jim!

Sep 06 21:44:43 <Lensman> I discovered to my very great sadness that I couldn't even sit thru an entire "Thunderbirds" episode. Altho I'd *love* to be able to edit those down to half their length! There was on channel-- was it the Sci-Fi Channel?-- which was running "Thunderbirds" 1/2 an episode at a time, with captioned film notes. Now *that* was interesting! But the show moves much too slowly for a full hour episode, for me to be able to sit thru them.

Sep 06 21:44:59 <Lensman> Too bad, it was by far my favorite show as a child!

Sep 06 21:45:36 * Jim has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208])

Sep 06 21:46:40 <Dan> If you were on DishNet, it was their propritary channel. They put on the "pop-up video" version of the entire series. Ran it through two or three times before they stopped.

Sep 06 21:48:40 <Dan> They then changed the channel name and number, and took a bunch of Tech shows off the air. Too bad. Cut my viewing time down to almost nothing. My wife watches a lot of TV, but I no longer watch much at all.

Sep 06 21:48:44 <Lensman> That must have been it, Dish Network back when we had that service. When this area had no cable TV provider.

Sep 06 21:49:48 <Lensman> Was that the channel that became G4? What was it, TechTV?

Sep 06 21:50:20 <Dan> Yeah. When I moved out here in the country there wasn't any cable, so I bought a dish and DishNet. Their competition was PrimeStar, and it soon died around here. There is cable now, but it'd cost more and have fewer channels than DishNet does.

Sep 06 21:50:22 <Lensman> I'm confused, obviosly.

Sep 06 21:50:53 <Dan> TechTV, yes! It became G4 and dropped all the shows that were really worth watching.

Sep 06 21:52:05 <Dan> Sad, really.

Sep 06 21:52:31 <Lensman> I hated Dish for not having a good "TV Guide" service. It got to the point that our decoder wouldn't even give us programming a full hour in advance. And it really ticked us off that new customers were being offered DTV services, but their faithful customers who had been with them for years didn't get that deal. I'm happier with our local "bundled service" dealer; cable, Internet, phone service.

Sep 06 21:52:55 <Lensman> Yah, I *never* watch G4. Faugh.

Sep 06 21:53:12 <Dan> Now I only watch some of the history & cartoon channels, and BBCAmerica about once a week.

Sep 06 21:53:52 <Dan> Oh! Graham Norton will be on BBCAmerica in about 8 minutes.

Sep 06 21:53:57 <Lensman> We also get the Science channel now, which Dish didn't offer.

Sep 06 21:54:33 <Lensman> Well, I need to go grill some chicken, so sounds like this is a good time to go AFK.

Sep 06 21:57:53 <Dan> Well, I'm going to log off and go watch Ghrahm, then Justice League and then Iron Man on the two cartoon channels.

Sep 06 21:58:08 <Dan> Goodnight, David.

Sep 06 21:58:24 * Dan has quit ()

Sep 06 22:05:45 * senax (~frank@72.213.29.XXX) has left #knownspace

Sep 06 22:11:04 * bandersnatch has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Sep 06 22:19:59 <Fred> so I guess I shouldn't show you all my Supercar sites

Sep 06 22:22:03 <Fred> okay, this is fascinating

Sep 06 22:22:59 <Lensman> "All" my Supercar sites? "Your" as in you are the webmaster, or just ones you've discovered?

Sep 06 22:23:34 <Fred> ones I have a prescence on, webmaster or otherwise

Sep 06 22:24:17 <Lensman> Oh, I'm always willing to talk about Gerry Anderson shows. Just 'cuz I can't stand to watch 'em anymore-- except for "UFO"-- doesn't mean I'm not interested in 'em!

Sep 06 22:24:48 <Lensman> I still love the Thunderbirds ships. I even used a photo of Thunderbird 2 as an avatar for awhile.

Sep 06 22:47:42 <Fred> how's your bandwidth, lens?

Sep 06 22:49:29 <Fred>

Sep 06 22:49:55 <Fred> there's a model I built of Supercar, file size is kinda big

Sep 06 22:50:18 <Fred> Here's a calendar I did for our Supercar group a couple years ago

Sep 06 22:50:25 <Fred>

Sep 06 22:52:15 <Fred> various screen grabs of the facilities

Sep 06 22:52:24 <Fred>

Sep 07 00:01:59 <Fred> man, did THAT ever kill the chat :(