Chat Log: October 3rd 2009

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[09:23] #knownspace> Xenovalent: good morning, SeanS (provided, of course, that it is morning in your time zone)

[09:23] #knownspace> SeanS: i am in pittsburgh for the weeked. still eastern time

[09:24] #knownspace> SeanS: so yes... 9:24am here

[09:25] #knownspace> Xenovalent: you never know on the internet. (I'm in eastern time, too - and about to start cooking breakfast)

[09:26] #knownspace> SeanS: i am in a hotel so will wander down to the omelet bar next door as soon as everybody gets cleaned up

[09:32] #knownspace> Xenovalent: do you mind if I ask why your in pittsburgh?

[09:40] #knownspace> Xenovalent: ^you're, even [grammar fail]

[09:45] #knownspace> SeanS: came up here to watch the steelers game sunday night

[09:57] #knownspace> Xenovalent: that's not until tomorrow night - got anything good planned in the meantime?

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[12:18] #knownspace> SeanS: going shopping and other stuff julie and her kid want to do.

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[14:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Hello.

[15:12] Larry has joined #knownspace

[15:12] #knownspace> Larry: Hello? Anyone here?

[15:13] #knownspace> Larry: I'm looking at a list of names, but seeing only silence. Spooky.

[15:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Larry!

[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Sorry, I guess nobody was interested in chat today.

[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: But if you're interested, I have a few questions.

[15:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, are you there?

[15:23] #knownspace> Larry: I'm here. Hi, Lensman.

[15:23] #knownspace> Larry: Sorry, I was checking my email while I waited.

[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: In RINGWORLD'S CHILDREN I think Hindmost says that he can perceive hyperspace directly. But in FOW or JOW, Nessus uses a mass pointer. Is this a contradiction? Or what?

[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: That's okay.

[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: I was multi-tasking too.

[15:25] #knownspace> Larry: It's been more than a month since I tried to ride a wave at Hermosa Beach. It dropped me on my head. I've got a compression fracture between my shoulder blades.

[15:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Maybe Nessus uses a mass pointer even tho he doesn't need it? Or maybe Hindmost can perceive hyperspace directly, but Nessus cannot?

[15:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Ow!

[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: This sounds serious.

[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Are you having to wear a back brace or anything like that?

[15:26] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah, it's a contradiction. Or else Hindmost lied...but what motive?

[15:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Yah that's where I have the problem too. Why would Hindmost lie? It seems to be a very dangerous thing to lie about.

[15:27] #knownspace> Larry: They don't have me in a back brace. There was pain from stressed muscles/tendons, but it's eased off.

[15:28] #knownspace> Larry: Ed Lerner just emailed me: he's sent me a draft of BETRAYER OF WORLDS to proof/rewrite.

[15:28] #knownspace> Lensman: But consider this: No where is it described that the bridge of the HOT NEEDLE OF INQUIRY has a mass pointer. So... Hindmost doesn't need a mass pointer, or else Puppeteers have a method of photographing hyperspace directly, like Tunesmith developed.

[15:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Full draft? Complete?

[15:29] #knownspace> Lensman: "Compression fracture" sounds like broken vertebra. Is it just bad sprain? (I hope!)

[15:29] #knownspace> Larry: Ed and I will need to solve that matter of puppeteers and mass pointers, for the fifth book at least.

[15:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Good!

[15:30] #knownspace> Larry: Compression fracture: broken bone. I'm lucky to be alive.

[15:31] #knownspace> Larry: I did decide that protectors can't use a mass pointer.

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[15:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Second question: In RINGWORLD the vegetation in the Ringworld habitat is described as "eerily earthlike". Is it a fair assumption that parallel evolution occurred on the Pak homeworld as compared to Earth? And if so, what does this imply? Did the Tnucipun embed "directed evolution" into food yeast DNA?

[15:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah hell, Larry! PLEASE take care of yourself!

[15:32] #knownspace> senax: Hello.

[15:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi senax

[15:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry just said he had a compression fracture of his backbone from surfing.

[15:33] #knownspace> senax: Ow. Sorry to hear it.

[15:33] #knownspace> Larry: I assumed a lot of parallel evolution. Early on, wasn't skilled at designing my own plants and critters. I tossed in a few jokers and lived with that.

[15:33] #knownspace> Lensman: So what is the therapy Larry? Are you confined to bed?

[15:34] #knownspace> Larry: Directed evolution: I left that open. It's still open--and closed: I don't intend to go back to the Ringworld.

[15:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, I understand that biology wasn't considered that important back in the late sixties & early seventies, when RINGWORLD was written. I'm not intending to criticize. I guess what I'm looking for is a retcon to explain why parallel evolution appears to have occurred in this case.

[15:35] #knownspace> Larry: Therapy included painkillers and ice, and no heavy lifting. I'm improved since. 5 weeks.

[15:36] #knownspace> Larry: Just speculating now: maybe Pak vegetation made progress on early Earth. Australia is more native to Earth.

[15:37] #knownspace> Lensman: The food yeast thing explains why Pak and Humans and Kzinti are similar on the basic organic molecular level, and explains why they all use DNA for genetics. It's harder to explain the great similarity of Ringworld bushes, grass, trees etc to earth life forms. So I'm guessing there's an unspecified "joker" in the deck there.

[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Ahhh yeah, a few of us have speculated on that too! Just how much earth life is actually from the Pak homeworld?

[15:39] #knownspace> Larry: Remember there's been selection. Pak chose what suited them as Ringworld life, and maybe their choices resembled cultivation on Earth.

[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: So then, would it be fair to say the fossil record on the Known Space earth is different than the fossil record on our Earth? Were there no trees, bushes, grass until 2.5 million years ago?

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[15:40] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi guys

[15:40] #knownspace> Larry: I flinch from claiming alternate time tracks...but in Known Space I'm stuck with a Mercury that shows one face to its Sun. so maybe.

[15:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, artificial selection-- and breeding-- rather than natural selection. But unless the Pak deliberately bred bushes to look like earth bushes, then it seems there must have been a lot of parallel evolution. Or am I missing something?

[15:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, it does seem that Mercury in Known Space has a very chaotic orbit! It must have had a perfectly circular orbit when Eric & Howie explored it, yet in "Madness Has Its Place" a few centuries later, it rotates.

[15:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi dmac

[15:45] #knownspace> Larry: Let's say Louis saw similar, but not identica plantsl. There's no elbow plant on Earth.

[15:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry... I apologize for contradicting you, but we know that in Known Space there was a manned mission to Pluto by 1989. So it seems to me that it's impossible to conclude we're in an alternate universe as compared to Known Space.

[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Right, similar but not identical. It's the "eerily similar" description that is what I think deserves a retcon.

[15:46] #knownspace> Larry: Lensman: you're right. Alternate timelines for sure.

[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Oops! I meant, it's impossible *not* to conclude we're in an alternate universe.

[15:48] #knownspace> senax: Of course, one could say the same for any future history which includes dates now past...

[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: senax, yes.

[15:48] #knownspace> senax: ...unless the author's batting 1000!

[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay... totally different question: Why is Dante's DIVINE COMEDY the first hard-sf story?

[15:48] #knownspace> Larry: Rewriting the fictional past can get confusing or boring or force the writer to look too deep into his own navel.

[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL seanax

[15:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: May I quote you on that, on my Concordance website?

[15:49] #knownspace> Larry: Dante: first SF trilogy. He used the sciences of his day. He built a structure bigger than the Ringworld.

[15:51] #knownspace> Lensman: "Structure" includes hell, purgatory, heaven? I was surprised at the end of your INFERNO that hell and... either heaven or purgatory seemed to be physically connected, by the near-endless stairway. ("Stairway to heaven"?)

[15:51] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, you may quote that pontification. Examples are easy to find. Gordy Dickson kept rewriting the same story. Orson Scott Card likewise. Me: scary possibility.

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[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Well I've noticed that you've deliberately chosen not to re-write older stories. I forget where you said that, but it's in print somewhere. You've just explained why, and thank you!

[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Fred!

[15:52] #knownspace> Fred: Hey

[15:53] #knownspace> Larry: Dante's structure: yes, I meant all of it.

[15:54] #knownspace> Lensman: So, did Benito find himself in Purgatory or in Heaven? Or is that a question you'd rather not answer?

[15:54] #knownspace> Larry: Guys, I've got speeches in which I claimed that Dante was the first SF novelist, but it's a big subject.

[15:54] #knownspace> Larry: Hello, all newcomers. I'm not usually first here.

[15:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Well it's been said that Dante used realistic time differentials for different areas on earth, what today we'd call "time zones". I'm guessing this is one of the things you mean by "he used the sciences of his day"?

[15:56] #knownspace> Fred: Hi, Larry, good to see you here!

[15:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, Larry, we recently heard about THE BEST OF LARRY NIVEN. You've been keeping that under your hat, hmmm?

[15:57] #knownspace> Larry: there's that. And there's the perfect astrological Easter weekend he designed for the trilogy.

[15:57] #knownspace> Fred: Where else would he keep the best of?

[15:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay I'll bite: What is he perfect astrological Easter weekend? IIRC Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox?

[15:58] #knownspace> Larry: BEST OF LARRY NIVEN: yes, I should have told you that was coming. Also another collection, STARS AND GODS, from TOR. Forgive the grandiose title.

[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Please tell us about STARS AND GODS.

[15:59] #knownspace> Larry: I don't know astrology. I'm taking Ciardi's word for that perfect Easter weekend. But astrology was then a legitimate study; so were the Greek and Roman classics.

[16:01] #knownspace> Larry: You recall N-SPACE and PLAYGROUNDS OF THE MIND and SCATTERBRAIN? STARS AND GODS is a similar collection of stories, excerpts from novels, autobiographical stuff, and random.

[16:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay. Is that the actual title of SCATTERBRAIN II then?

[16:02] #knownspace> Fred: excellent. enjoyed the other 3 tremendously. They make great gifts as well.

[16:03] #knownspace> Fred: Larry, didn't you do a series of captions for cartoons of King Kong? Or did I fry another brain fuse?

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[16:03] #knownspace> Fred: hey Ed

[16:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Welcome Ed!

[16:03] #knownspace> EML: Hi, all.

[16:04] #knownspace> Larry: yes, we retitled SCATTERBRAIN II.

[16:04] #knownspace> EML: Larry -- FYI, I sent you a file a little while earlier.

[16:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Yah, well I didn't think that would be the actual title.

[16:05] #knownspace> Larry: I never captioned King Kong. Someone else, no doubt.

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[16:06] #knownspace> Larry: Hi, Ed! I noticed an email from you. Haven't read it. It's BETRAYER? Timing is good.

[16:06] #knownspace> SeanS: oh my ghod!! they are in the room at the same time!! ;)

[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Is this the first full draft of BETRAYER? And is that #4 in the sequence?

[16:07] #knownspace> EML: Hi Larry. Yes, Betrayer.

[16:07] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi Ed, feel free to send it along to the rest of us. :)

[16:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean: No doubt it's just a single entity using two computers.

[16:07] #knownspace> EML: Indeed, it is #4.

[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: #3 is DESTROYER OF WORLDS is that right?

[16:08] #knownspace> EML: Yes, #3 is Destroyer. Due out on November 10th.

[16:08] #knownspace> Fred: long since pre-ordered

[16:09] #knownspace> Fred: and churning up amazing amounts of Amazon 'recommendations'

[16:09] #knownspace> Fred: like, every book to be published with 'world' in the title :\

[16:09] #knownspace> EML: Do we have a an open topic at the moment?

[16:09] #knownspace> Lensman: November 10! I didn't realize it was coming up so soon.

[16:09] #knownspace> Fred: None that I am aware of Ed

[16:10] #knownspace> SeanS: dont know what has been going on... I have been down in the hotel bar

[16:10] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah, we'd have trouble copyrighting "World".

[16:10] #knownspace> Fred: Like Lucas and "Raiders"

[16:11] #knownspace> senax: gotta back later if possible.

[16:11] #knownspace> EML: Well, here' s peripherally LN-related item ...

[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Well, I've been trying to pin Larry down about the apparent parallel evolution between earth and the Pak homeworld... Larry has been dodging and weaving. And I queried him on why Dante's DIVINE COMEDY is the first hard-sf novel... he says it's a big subject. And I asked him about why Hindmost apparently doesn't need a mass pointer to navigate hyperspace-- he tells Tunesmith he can...

[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: ...perceive it directly-- yet Nessus uses a mass pointer on his own ship. Larry said that would be addressed in a future story... I presume an OF WORLDS novel.

[16:13] #knownspace> EML: Small Miracles, my near-future nanotech thriller comes out October 13, with the following on its cover: "I was royally entertained -- Larry Niven"

[16:13] #knownspace> Fred: heh

[16:13] #knownspace> Fred: praise from Ceasar

[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Indeed.

[16:14] #knownspace> EML: Lens: in the Worlds books, IIRC, all Puppeteers use mass pointers to navigate in hyperspace.

[16:14] #knownspace> Larry: True. Good SF chase story.

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[16:16] #knownspace> jim: anyone here?

[16:16] #knownspace> Larry: We

[16:16] #knownspace> EML: just us Puppeteers.

[16:16] #knownspace> Larry: We're all around you.

[16:16] #knownspace> jim: Hi Larry

[16:16] #knownspace> Fred: Nessus is a different sex than the Hindmost. It's like asking why women drivers need a GPS to find the grocery store, and men drivers can dead reckon it :)

[16:17] #knownspace> SeanS: just got informed that i am being picked up in about 20-30 minutes to go to the hard rock for some food

[16:17] #knownspace> jim: Fred?

[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Okay. Well obviously I don't know what the true situation is with Puppeteers and perceiving hyperspace. Hindmost could have lied, but it seems to be a dangerous thing to lie about. If Tunesmith depended on Hindmost to navigate, but he couldn't... that could put Hindmost in a very dangerous situation! And I note that nowhere in any RINGWORLD book is it described that the /Hot Needle of...

[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: ...Inquiry/ has a mass pointer on the bridge.

[16:18] #knownspace> jim: SeanS what town?

[16:18] #knownspace> Fred: Jim, Lensman was asking why Nessus uses a mass indicator to fly in Hyperspace, and the Hindmost doesn't

[16:18] #knownspace> SeanS: pittsburgh

[16:18] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL I think Fred has the best answer. :)

[16:18] #knownspace> Fred: Pictures of Sean's trip available on Facebook

[16:19] #knownspace> EML: I'll leave commenting on that to Larry (if he chooses).

[16:19] #knownspace> SeanS: that reminds me to take the camera with me. guess i could take the laptop with me... probably annoy the hell out of everybody ;)

[16:19] #knownspace> Fred: that pink fountain disturbs me

[16:19] #knownspace> SeanS: heh... tis right out the window

[16:21] #knownspace> Larry: Ed, we'll do it your way: Puppeteers need a mass pointer. And some can't use it. (Like humans.)

[16:21] #knownspace> SeanS: good answer

[16:21] #knownspace> Fred: and it doesn't preclude my theory at all!

[16:22] #knownspace> EML: so what are the house odds on who Hindmost turns out to be?

[16:22] #knownspace> SeanS: fred, i would think it would be difficult to dead reckon while dealing with the blind spot

[16:22] #knownspace> jim: Ed, you can't vote

[16:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Nessus had a tasp surgically implanted in his skull. Maybe Hindmost has some techno device implanted in *his* skull that enables him to perceive hyperspace? Tunesmith may not have been the first to develop a machine which could photograph hyperspace.

[16:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: You appear to be the only one who is NOT sure Hindmost = Nike. The rest of us, including your wife, are sure! :)

[16:24] #knownspace> EML: Actually, I get lots of votes ;-)

[16:25] #knownspace> SeanS: ed, being part owner of the voting booth helps ;)

[16:25] #knownspace> Fred: The only cause I have for doubt is that it means Nike teases Nessus for another 200 years, and Nessus is *still* falling for it

[16:25] #knownspace> jim: Ed, I meant to say bet not vote. It would be bad form to place a bet on something you have direct control of.

[16:26] #knownspace> EML: true enough, jim.

[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: One unanswered question is just how long Puppeteers live. Obviously a long time indeed, but just how long?

[16:26] #knownspace> Fred: same question for humans

[16:26] #knownspace> jim: ~1.0e+04 years

[16:26] #knownspace> SeanS: i would say that barring accidents, forever

[16:26] #knownspace> Fred: nessus says humans are *almost* as long lived as puppeteers

[16:27] #knownspace> Fred: that would seem to imply a practical limit on both

[16:27] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens, I'm not sure Hindmost = Nike. After all the title of #4 is called Brtrayer. And we know that Achilles wants to regain his stature. And the Hindmost's waiting room can be destroyed the same way GP hulls are. So, Achilles turns out to be a heel. :)

[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: I think RINGWORLD'S CHILDREN says that some humans live 500 years. It may be even longer by the time of "Safe at Any Speed".

[16:28] #knownspace> SeanS: reaching way back in memory, didnt nick sohl tell brennan that his kids might live to be 1000 with advances in geriatrics?

[16:28] #knownspace> Larry: Lifespan for humans grows as time progresses. Call it 500+ for a few, by Louis Wu's time. Carlos Wu's autodoc changes that. And puppeteers last much longer.

[16:29] #knownspace> Larry: Everybody thinks his kids will live longer--all SF readers, anyway.

[16:29] #knownspace> jim: What are the practical limits of boosterspice? Accidents alone (in 2010 society) would prevent few humans from reaching 200 years.

[16:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean: We have contradictory info from different stories. "The Ethics of Madness" suggests an indefinite lifespan for everyone. Obviously that's not true.

[16:30] #knownspace> SeanS: gotta go... shuttle approaching

[16:30] #knownspace> SeanS: my session will time out when the laptop snoozes

[16:30] #knownspace> jim: bye Sean

[16:31] #knownspace> Larry: Larry wants lunch. Be seeing you.

[16:31] #knownspace> Fred: 500 years is how long it's been since boosterspice came along at the time of Ringworld's children; that's the upper limit available at that timee

[16:31] #knownspace> jim: bye Larry

[16:31] #knownspace> Fred: Eat one for me, Larry

[16:31] #knownspace> EML: Have we seen human KS characters older than, say, 300? I can't think of any (but that's hardly an infallible system).

[16:31] #knownspace> EML: Bye, Larry.

[16:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Oops, THE RINGWORLD THRONE, not CHILDREN.

[16:32] #knownspace> Lensman: "Was Louis Wu going senile? So quickly? He was well over two hundred years old. Boosterspice had kept some humans hale and sapient for half a thousand years, sometimes more. But without his medical benefits, Louis Wu might age fast."

[16:33] #knownspace> EML: But interestingly (to me, anyway), we've never met a character that old.

[16:33] #knownspace> Fred: Page 9

[16:33] #knownspace> Fred: "Boosterspice had

[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Prill is supposed to be 1000 years old.

[16:34] #knownspace> jim: Most people would probably choose to commit suicide before reaching 500 years of age.

[16:34] #knownspace> Fred: hmmm

[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: But that's due to a lot of time dilation flying at relativistic speeds, I think.

[16:34] #knownspace> Fred: I thought even Prill didn't have any idea how old she was

[16:34] #knownspace> EML: Prill is a RW hominid, not ahuman.

[16:34] #knownspace> Fred: it was just that she walked to the city from the spaceport

[16:35] #knownspace> jim: Lensman, Prill had a drug that was derived from Tree-Of-Life

[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, you're restricting it to humans. Okay.

[16:35] #knownspace> Fred: how old was the woman pirate in that Bey kidnap adventure?

[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: jim: Arguably, boosterspice is also derived from tree-of-life.

[16:35] #knownspace> dmac44: We know that Protectors live a very long time. Shouldn't there be a way to duplicate that longevity without the "side effects"?

[16:35] #knownspace> EML: I think boosterspice is derived from tofu -- it only SEEMS like yo live a long time.

[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Margo. Over 250 IIRC.

[16:36] #knownspace> Fred: k, so no biggie in Louis Wu terms

[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Not in Louis Wu terms, anyway.

[16:36] #knownspace> jim: Old enough to be self-conscious about it

[16:37] #knownspace> Fred: Seeker's old too

[16:37] #knownspace> Fred: and he got one big dose to last him forever

[16:37] #knownspace> EML: Seeker is another RW hominid.

[16:37] #knownspace> Fred: or until Teela gets bored

[16:37] #knownspace> jim: Seeker is old?

[16:37] #knownspace> Fred: yes

[16:38] #knownspace> Fred: he got a massive dose of youth juice

[16:38] #knownspace> Lensman: There are a lot of Ringworld natives who lived a very long time. See the section of RE where Louis talks to the people who rule the floating city.

[16:38] #knownspace> Fred: and died from eating tree of life IIRC

[16:38] #knownspace> Lensman: The City Builders apparently had a very effective life-extending medicine. Prill had a sample of that, which was taken back to Human Space. But supposedly was lost when a researcher compulsively drank it.

[16:39] #knownspace> Fred: from Ringworld, re Seeker:

[16:39] #knownspace> Fred: "He's old, Louis. He got a massive dose of something like boosterspice, long ago. He says he

[16:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Yah I presume Seeker used the CB TOL extract.

[16:40] #knownspace> EML: These extreme ages are doubly Clarke's Law. Sufficientl;y advanced magic and the civilization has fallen, so no one even tries to explain it.

[16:41] #knownspace> Fred: also they aren't particularly defensible

[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Seeker-B died from eating TOL. Seeker-C survived to raise Wembleth.

[16:41] #knownspace> Fred: Seeker tells a woman he wants to bed he's really old to impress her

[16:41] #knownspace> Fred: Do we know the final fate of Seeker-C?

[16:42] #knownspace> Lensman: No.

[16:42] #knownspace> jim: There should be a law regarding technologies shared between SF universes. CB TOL and Boosterspice is a lot like the Spice treatment in Dune Universe.

[16:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Wembleth says his mother (Teela) disappeared /n/ falans ago and he hasn't seen her since. He doesn't say anything about Seeker's fate.

[16:43] #knownspace> EML: Methuslah lived 900 years ... but who calls that livin' when no gal will give in to no man who's got 900 years? (Porgy and Bess, more or less.)

[16:45] #knownspace> Lensman: "Doctor, I want to live to be 100." "Well, do you drink to excess?" "No." "Well, do you smoke?" "No." "Do you use recreational drugs?" "No." "Well, do you consort with loose women?" "No." "Well then, what in heck do you want to live to be 100 for?"

[16:47] #knownspace> Fred: "She and--Seeker--my father," with a bit of a glare, "took turns exploring. I never knew what they were

[16:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred, your quotes are getting cut off. The last I see is "what they were".

[16:48] #knownspace> Fred: weird. they showed here. anybody else?

[16:49] #knownspace> Fred: should end with "when she disappeared"

[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred, would you mind if I re-posted the entire quote?

[16:49] #knownspace> Fred: go for it

[16:50] #knownspace> EML: Fred -- the quote was truncated for me, too.

[16:50] #knownspace> Fred: the upshot is, Teela vanishes at the time of RINGWORLD ENGINEERS.

[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: "She and--Seeker--my father," with a bit of a glare, "took turns exploring. I never knew what they were looking for. One of them had to stay with me. They did more of that after I was older. I was near eighty falans when she disappeared."

[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Am I the only one who saw Fred's quote cut off?

[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, nevermind!

[16:52] #knownspace> jim: nope, I saw it truncated

[16:53] #knownspace> EML: Maybe Fred is ... the Lopper.

[16:53] #knownspace> jim: Fred, Why is Stargate: Universe the worse skiffy program on TV?

[16:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred: Assuming you're using the same text file as I am (and I think you are), it truncated at a carriage return you copied from the document.

[16:54] #knownspace> Fred: yep

[16:55] #knownspace> Fred: not sure why it shows okay here though

[16:55] #knownspace> Lensman: I *tried* to watch STARGATE: UNIVERSE. Really I did. I just couldn't focus. It was so tanj dull. The characters were undeveloped, uninteresting. The plot was hackneyed.

[16:55] #knownspace> Fred: Jim, well, for one reason, it doesn't have any competition right now :)

[16:55] #knownspace> Fred: Lens, it got worse

[16:55] #knownspace> Fred: it plodded like that for 2 solid hours

[16:56] #knownspace> Fred: they finally open the stargate to actually GO somewhere

[16:56] #knownspace> jim: Does the Ringworld text file have CR/LF at the end of each line of text.

[16:56] #knownspace> Fred: "to be continued"

[16:56] #knownspace> Lensman: "Fringe" is pretty good. "Warehouse 13" is dumb but entertaining.

[16:56] #knownspace> Fred: not that I can see Jim

[16:56] #knownspace> Lensman: jim: Yes.

[16:57] #knownspace> Fred: see if this works

[16:57] #knownspace> Fred: "She and--Seeker--my father," with a bit of a glare, "took turns exploring. I never knew what they were looking for. One of them had to stay with me. They did more of that after I was older. I was near eighty falans when she disappeared."

[16:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Thumbs up, Fred.

[16:57] #knownspace> Fred: are you using IRC or Java?

[16:58] #knownspace> jim: I am using and it was truncated for me

[16:58] #knownspace> Lensman: When I import the text file into WordPerfect and turn on the "display hidden characters" option, it shows a carriage return at the end of every line.

[16:59] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm using ChatZILLA, an IRC client.

[16:59] #knownspace> Fred: yeah, I took it into text edit and could see the returns there

[16:59] #knownspace> Fred: I suspect Java is ignoring the carriage returns

[16:59] #knownspace> Fred: which is why it's okay on my end

[17:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't know enuff about Java to have an informed opinion, but it sounds plausible.

[17:02] #knownspace> EML: so ... I was at an astronomy program for writers, run by hard SF author (and astronomer) Mike Brotherton, and he informs me the supernova chain reaction at the galactic core can't happen.

[17:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyway... I also found it odd that Wembleth never said anything about his father's fate. Does that imply that Seeker is still alive and he doesn't want to tell Louis-monster about that? I can certainly see that he wouldn't! He seems to regard Louis as competition to be his father.

[17:03] #knownspace> EML: but Mike did allow that canon is canon, and the chain reaction was not something that could be retconned.

[17:03] #knownspace> Lensman: I didn't put that very well. He seems to regard Louis-monster as a competitor of his "real" father.

[17:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, I'll bite: Why can't the core explosion happen?

[17:05] #knownspace> EML: there's just not that close coupling between stars, even at galactic-core separations.

[17:06] #knownspace> jim: what is the mean coupling between stars near the galactic center?

[17:06] #knownspace> EML: compared to interstellar distances, stars are really tiny.

[17:07] #knownspace> EML: so the blast wave from a supernova is REALLY spread out before it reaches a neighboring star.

[17:08] #knownspace> Lensman: I certainly hope the core explosion isn't retconned away! But we could retcon *why* it occurred. If the Puppeteers can cause stars to emit radiation indicating they're about to go nova/supernove... which presumably is what attracts starseeds... can the stars similarly be made to *actually* blow up by using a similar device? Is it possible to induce that much instability or would that require...

[17:08] #knownspace> Lensman: ...a massive expenditure of energy in a short time?

[17:08] #knownspace> EML: what novae and supernovae can do is trigger shock waves in dust-and-gas clouds, triggering new waves of star production.

[17:09] #knownspace> Fred: what if the core suns are made of red matter?

[17:09] #knownspace> EML: I like to think actually blowing up a star takes lots of energy.

[17:09] #knownspace> Fred: not if it's red matter

[17:10] #knownspace> EML: red or (f)red matter?

[17:10] #knownspace> Fred: :)

[17:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Obvious retcon is that the Outsiders wanted to end the threat of Pak spreading out, so used devices to cause the Core explosion. Obvious retcon doesn't necessarily make a good story, tho.

[17:10] #knownspace> Fred: Hmm. Seems like it's just as likely that would force the Pak to spread out

[17:11] #knownspace> EML: the Pak are on their way ... November 10th. :-)

[17:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Pak don't have FTL drive. They can't outrun the radiation wave.

[17:11] #knownspace> dmac44: I recall we had a discussion a few months ago about blowing up stars. Sagan and Shklovskii speculated on that 40 years ago (using a gamma ray laser from 10 ly).

[17:12] #knownspace> Fred: You think Pak can't invent FTL if they need it?

[17:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, that's exactly what I think. And they can't navigate in hyperspace since they can't use mass pointer.

[17:13] #knownspace> jim: Stargate SG-1 blew up a star by removing some of the matter in the star

[17:13] #knownspace> Fred: besides, the Outsiders woul be killing all their precious starseeds

[17:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm well yes, you've got me there. So we need another villain for the retcon.

[17:13] #knownspace> dmac44: maybe someone else who doesn't like the outsiders or Pak

[17:14] #knownspace> EML: Not all radiation from a supernovae moves at light speed. Gamma rays (being photons) move that fast (but they tend to be emitted directionally). Particle radiation, like nuclei, is slower (and also slows down because of drag in the interstellar medium).

[17:14] #knownspace> Fred: red matter supernova radiation travels translight

[17:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Too bad the Tnuctipun aren't around anymore. Sometimes "Down in Flames" looks attractive...

[17:16] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed: 10^12 kilowatts from 10 ly away with a gama ray laser

[17:17] #knownspace> EML: a laser beam (or a gamma ray burster) is VERY directional. If you'r eunlucky, it'll kill you from a big distance. But (per above) stars are really small vs. interstellar distances.

[17:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Now wait: Starseed metabolism uses nuclear fusion. I'm not so sure at all that they'd be bothered by a bit of supernova radiation.

[17:17] #knownspace> dmac44: a gamma ray laser would have to be aimed at the star

[17:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Yah what dmac says. Altho even lasers spread out at interstellar distances.

[17:18] #knownspace> EML: Sol is less than one million miles across. The closest star is about 25 trillion miles. You do the math :-)

[17:18] #knownspace> Fred: must be closer than that. The Klingon homeworld is only .8 lights

[17:18] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed: I only quote S&S

[17:18] #knownspace> Fred: and there are several systems between us and it

[17:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred... there's being amusing and then there's being obnoxious.

[17:19] #knownspace> Fred: and there's quoting Trek canon

[17:19] #knownspace> Lensman: ...which has nothing to do with Known Space.

[17:20] #knownspace> EML: Doug: I don't think S&S ever succeeded in building and aiming their death ray. I won't lay awake nights worrying about our neighbors having built one :-)

[17:20] #knownspace> Fred: every time you say "S&S" I read "Simon and Schuster"

[17:20] #knownspace> EML: Soupy and Sales

[17:20] #knownspace> dmac44: I'm not worried about our neighbors, I'm worried about the Pak's neighbors :)

[17:20] #knownspace> jim: Simon & Simon?

[17:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Do you think the Core explosion *needs* a retcon, or should we just ignore that as, for instance, we ignore the fact that the galaxy in KS stories has a spherical core... is not a barred spiral?

[17:21] #knownspace> Lensman: What is "S&S" anyway?

[17:21] #knownspace> dmac44: Sagan and Shklovskii

[17:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanx dmac.

[17:22] #knownspace> Fred: Amazon just recommended John Ringo's "Live Free Or Die" - Recommended because you rated Destroyer of Worlds

[17:22] #knownspace> dmac44: they wrote "Intelligent Life in the Universe"

[17:23] #knownspace> EML: I think of KS as a parallel universe. We already see that biology works differently there (end of Pak and terrestrial evolution discussion) so why not galactic cores, too?

[17:23] #knownspace> Lensman: And BTW, Lensman is *not* pleased that RINGWORLD'S CHILDREN says the galaxy is a barred spiral. It cannot possibly be, unless you invoke the "Down in Flames" scenario, where Bey experienced a Virtual Reality trip to the Core.

[17:23] #knownspace> EML: Umm, Fred? Jumping the gun a bit rating DOW?

[17:24] #knownspace> Fred: yeah, I'm trying to figure out what's up with that

[17:24] #knownspace> Fred: it says I gave you 4 out of 5 stars

[17:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: That's my favored approach, too. I admit I don't understand Larry's reluctance to invoke the parallel universe rule. I guess maybe he sees it as an easy out... *too* easy maybe?

[17:25] #knownspace> Lensman: ratings have a *default* of 4/5 stars? Welllllll that explains why there are so many 4/5 star ratings then!

[17:26] #knownspace> EML: I certainly don't speak for Larry. Calling "parallel universe" is just what I anticipating doing with my solo stories when enough time has passed and the science has passed me by.

[17:27] #knownspace> EML: I don't see any Amazon ratings for DOW. My understanding is that Amazon doesn't show reviews or ratings until a book's release date.

[17:29] #knownspace> Fred: quite strange

[17:29] #knownspace> Fred: DVDs get pre reviews all the time

[17:30] #knownspace> Lensman: I may be wrong, but I thought I saw reviews for unreleased books all the time. After all, publishers do send out ARCs for the express purpose of having advance reviews published.

[17:32] #knownspace> Fred: Ed, I went to the main page for DoW. Amazon says I purchased it, and will let me rate it.

[17:33] #knownspace> Fred: but it also says there are no ratings yet. maybe pre-release ratings are for recommendations onlyl

[17:34] #knownspace> Fred: It shows standard ratings for Juggler and Fleet

[17:34] #knownspace> EML: one can post editorial reviews (whch are moderated). Reader reviews (IIRC) are held for release.

[17:35] #knownspace> Fred: It's not giving me the option of reviewing it at all

[17:36] #knownspace> EML: I'm going to head off soon for dinner. But before I go, I will make an entirely non-coy plug for my upcoming solo, Small Miracles. If you've enjoyed my contributions to KS, consider it. (But I'll never ask, of course.)

[17:36] #knownspace> Fred: :)

[17:37] #knownspace> jim: :-)

[17:37] #knownspace> jim: :P

[17:37] #knownspace> dmac44: Bye Ed.

[17:37] #knownspace> jim: bye ed

[17:37] #knownspace> Fred: Buy Ed

[17:37] #knownspace> EML: Bye, all. See ya next month.

[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye Ed, And yes, Buy Ed!

[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Too late.

[17:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Well THAT was unusual. Larry and Ed here when the chat room was almost empty!

[17:38] #knownspace> Fred:

[17:42] #knownspace> dmac44: I'm fading. See you all next month.

[17:43] #knownspace> jim: bye

[17:44] #knownspace> jim: my screen lists three people chatting and six idlers but does not give their name

[17:44] #knownspace> jim: who all is here?

[17:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Lensman is here, altho getting dinner.

[17:51] #knownspace> jim: I gotta go too. Bye

[19:19] Louis_Wu has joined #knownspace

[19:19] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: Greetings!

[19:19] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: I'm too late, or too early...?

[19:19] #knownspace> Louis_Wu: futz

[19:23] SeanS has joined #knownspace

[19:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi fen!

[21:17] Louis_Wu has joined #knownspace