Chat Log: October 6th 2007

Oct 06 13:41:19 <Dan> Hi there.

Oct 06 13:45:49 <SeanS> hey dan

Oct 06 13:46:03 <Dan> How ya doing?

Oct 06 13:46:15 <SeanS> not toooo shabby

Oct 06 13:46:22 <SeanS> you?

Oct 06 13:47:04 <Dan> Just sold my old pick-up truck for $300. Since I only paid $800 for it a decade ago, that's not too bad.

Oct 06 13:47:20 <SeanS> you got your money's worth

Oct 06 13:47:39 <Dan> Waiting on the guy to bring a trailer over here to haul it off, and to pay up.

Oct 06 13:48:24 <SeanS> i am killing time till 5pm when i am driving my best friends daughters birthday present up to johnny corinos

Oct 06 13:49:46 <SeanS> tomorrow i am either doing model rocketry or going for a boat ride with a cooler full of beer

Oct 06 13:50:08 <Dan> LOL!

Oct 06 13:50:32 <SeanS> or maybe model rocketry THEN a boat ride with a cooler full of beer

Oct 06 13:51:18 <Dan> Or a model rocket ride with a boatload of beer?

Oct 06 13:51:28 <SeanS> or maybe model rocketry WITH a cooler full of beer... somehow beer will figure prominantly

Oct 06 13:54:37 * Nesssus (~Nesssus@ has joined #knownspace

Oct 06 13:54:59 <Nesssus> Hello all. Long time no see

Oct 06 13:55:30 <Dan> Hello indeed!

Oct 06 13:56:02 <SeanS> hello Nesssus... been a long time

Oct 06 13:56:38 * SeanS gives channel operator status to Nesssus

Oct 06 13:58:38 <Nesssus> thanks Sean

Oct 06 13:59:18 <SeanS> np, glad to see you in here again

Oct 06 14:00:12 <Nesssus> Is Larry expected tonight?

Oct 06 14:01:04 <SeanS> i havent heard

Oct 06 14:01:33 <Nesssus> ok. So what's the latest gossip then?

Oct 06 14:01:41 <SeanS> if he does, it will probably be in about an hour. he tends to come in about lunch time on the west coast

Oct 06 14:01:55 <SeanS> everyone is eagerly expecting Fleet of Worlds

Oct 06 14:02:19 <Nesssus> oh yes. I forgot I've pre-ordered that

Oct 06 14:03:12 <SeanS> remember when i first showed up in the chat room and was nervous about joining in the conversation?

Oct 06 14:03:27 <Nesssus> lol everyone's done that at some point

Oct 06 14:03:50 <SeanS> well, at the prompting of the late great Frank Gasperik, the chat server itself is sitting in my closet.

Oct 06 14:05:42 <Nesssus> really?

Oct 06 14:06:30 <SeanS> yep

Oct 06 14:07:19 <Nesssus> i thought it was always cool that we had our own servers for these chats

Oct 06 14:07:33 <Nesssus> sorts of keeps them private away from the rest of the irc community

Oct 06 14:07:44 <SeanS> i have done it ever since has gone down and frank called me in desperation on a saturday morning asking if i could do it

Oct 06 14:08:11 <SeanS> when i first got here it was still hosted on chatnet

Oct 06 14:09:43 <Nesssus> yes

Oct 06 14:09:57 <Nesssus> then their servers got hacked if I recall#

Oct 06 14:10:07 <Nesssus> no one could connect

Oct 06 14:10:37 <Dan> I remember that.

Oct 06 14:10:37 <SeanS> denial of service attack

Oct 06 14:11:30 <SeanS> so how have you been?

Oct 06 14:12:43 <Nesssus> ok. Been very busy at work for what seems like forever

Oct 06 14:12:57 <SeanS> i can understand that

Oct 06 14:14:01 <Nesssus> hopefully I've managed to find a way to cut back now

Oct 06 14:14:15 <Nesssus> I'm going to be moving offices shortly.

Oct 06 14:15:23 <Nesssus> peace, quiet and sanctuary away from the Chaos of my boss's other businesses will make a big difference to my workload

Oct 06 14:17:05 <SeanS> i bet

Oct 06 14:17:48 <Nesssus> best of all, the new office is just down the hill from where i live so can roll out of bed at five to nine. lol

Oct 06 14:18:14 <SeanS> excellent... that makes a big difference

Oct 06 14:19:36 <Nesssus> yeah, getting up at 7 am every morning to get the 8 o clock bus into Penzance has become a bit of a pain

Oct 06 14:20:20 <Nesssus> back in a sec, going to jump into the shower.

Oct 06 14:22:05 <SeanS> kk

Oct 06 14:22:14 <SeanS> i think dan is selling a truck

Oct 06 14:22:41 <Dan> Waiting on the man, to quote Lou Reed.

Oct 06 14:23:50 <SeanS> ah

Oct 06 14:24:24 <SeanS> have you seen 'The IT Crowd'? cant remember if i have asked this or not

Oct 06 14:25:24 <Dan> Going to use the cash to buy some 2x4s and plywood to make a floor and doors for the garage half of our backyard storage building. We're going to set it up as a sort of workshop for me to use.

Oct 06 14:25:50 <Dan> Can't say that I've seen it, no.

Oct 06 14:26:24 <SeanS> look for it and download them.... extremely funny

Oct 06 14:26:36 <Dan> I'm maxxed-out on downloads right now, though.

Oct 06 14:27:06 <SeanS> i have been pulling Gerry Anderson's UFO off of Euan

Oct 06 14:28:17 <Dan> I bought the boxed set for that several years back. I love Gerry Anderson stuff. Well, except for Space:1999.

Oct 06 14:28:56 <SeanS> I have watched the pilot... dont think i have ever seen UFO before

Oct 06 14:29:34 <Dan> I remember watching it as a kid when it first hit US broadcast TV back in the '70s.

Oct 06 14:38:00 <Nesssus> back

Oct 06 14:38:15 <Dan> re

Oct 06 14:39:43 <Dan> I think I'm going to like having a workshop. It'll let me get all my tools and paint off of the front porch, too.

Oct 06 14:40:47 * NickE (~NickE@ has joined #knownspace

Oct 06 14:40:55 <SeanS> hola, Nick

Oct 06 14:40:59 <Dan> Hiya Nick.

Oct 06 14:41:25 <NickE> hi

Oct 06 14:42:14 <NickE> help, we've been invaded by 12 yr old girls!

Oct 06 14:42:28 <Dan> Here's the guy after the truck. Be back as soon as I can.

Oct 06 14:42:37 <NickE> (daughters BD treat)

Oct 06 14:42:59 <NickE> Sorry about last night Sean, it was a bit mad

Oct 06 14:43:20 <Nesssus> Hi Nick

Oct 06 14:43:39 <SeanS> tis ok... i was very suprised to see you online that late

Oct 06 14:46:50 <SeanS> anybody using any dvd cataloging software? I would love to find a good one. my collection has grown beyond my ability to remember what i have and dont have.

Oct 06 14:52:06 <NickE> might be a bit slow tonight.m Knackered

Oct 06 14:52:23 <NickE> Mel, you here?

Oct 06 14:59:29 <NickE> So keepin OK?

Oct 06 15:00:13 <NickE> HI Mel, sorry, missed that (am chatting on \skype with another group too)

Oct 06 15:00:36 <NickE> back in a bit, gotta eat

Oct 06 15:03:22 * UncleNasty (~unclenasty@ has joined #knownspace

Oct 06 15:03:30 <UncleNasty> aloha

Oct 06 15:03:48 * UncleNasty is doing the traditional geek victory dance

Oct 06 15:03:50 <Nesssus> I've been adding some of dvds to the Visual DVD rack facebook application

Oct 06 15:03:58 <Nesssus> Hello Uncle

Oct 06 15:04:09 <UncleNasty> Hi Nesssus

Oct 06 15:04:53 <UncleNasty> i have finally managed to ditch my satellite connection for real, honest to goodness, high speed internet service

Oct 06 15:05:19 <SeanS> congrats neil... how fast?

Oct 06 15:05:32 <UncleNasty> 3/1 DSL equivalent

Oct 06 15:05:43 <UncleNasty> it's wimax, so it's kinda experimental

Oct 06 15:05:51 <SeanS> 1 up? twice my upload rate

Oct 06 15:06:23 <UncleNasty> i have a funky little modem in the attic (for better reception) plugged into an apple airport to give me house coverage.

Oct 06 15:06:34 <UncleNasty> and it's supposedly portable

Oct 06 15:06:39 <SeanS> cable modem here

Oct 06 15:06:42 <UncleNasty> i can take my net connection with me :D

Oct 06 15:06:57 <Dan> Back.

Oct 06 15:07:06 <SeanS> thats cool

Oct 06 15:07:21 <UncleNasty> after 3 days of arguing with the phone company because they map by postal code, which places me 20km north of here and not in a covered area

Oct 06 15:07:31 <SeanS> heh

Oct 06 15:07:31 <UncleNasty> hi Dan

Oct 06 15:08:01 <UncleNasty> so I mailed them a google-earth file and my lat/long so they could see that I was actually in their coverage zone

Oct 06 15:08:02 <Dan> Hiya Neil.

Oct 06 15:08:56 * UncleNasty thinks he may have to change his facebook picture

Oct 06 15:09:46 <Nesssus> what's your facebook profile called?

Oct 06 15:10:09 <UncleNasty> I go by the name of my non-superhuman alter-ego...

Oct 06 15:10:17 <UncleNasty> "Neil Pritchard" or something ;)

Oct 06 15:11:07 <Nesssus> that helps, there's 24 of you

Oct 06 15:11:09 <UncleNasty> lol

Oct 06 15:11:14 <UncleNasty> have you seen clerks 2?

Oct 06 15:11:17 <Nesssus> which one are you

Oct 06 15:11:21 <Nesssus> no

Oct 06 15:11:22 <SeanS> no

Oct 06 15:11:24 <UncleNasty> ahh

Oct 06 15:11:29 <UncleNasty> the joke will be lost, then

Oct 06 15:11:45 <UncleNasty> look for the blue tinted picture of a guy in a mask

Oct 06 15:12:40 <Nesssus> you look as though you're into S&M lol

Oct 06 15:13:28 <UncleNasty> my evil minions informed me that I bear a stunning resemblance to a character in clerks 2

Oct 06 15:13:38 <UncleNasty> that character is my facebook pic

Oct 06 15:13:50 <UncleNasty> you'd have to watch the movie

Oct 06 15:13:59 <Nesssus> yes

Oct 06 15:14:06 <Nesssus> obviously

Oct 06 15:14:20 <UncleNasty> it's in regards to a donkey-show...

Oct 06 15:14:41 <UncleNasty> enough said, methinks

Oct 06 15:15:47 <NickE> Hi Dan, Hi Neil

Oct 06 15:15:50 <NickE> back

Oct 06 15:15:56 * Lensman2 (~Lensman2@ has joined #knownspace

Oct 06 15:15:56 <UncleNasty> hi NickE

Oct 06 15:16:00 <UncleNasty> Hola Lensman2

Oct 06 15:16:06 <NickE> hi

Oct 06 15:16:27 <Nesssus> Hello Lensman

Oct 06 15:16:46 * Lensman (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

Oct 06 15:16:57 <UncleNasty> Nesssus: what's your facebook profile?

Oct 06 15:17:56 <Lensman2> Hi Nesssus! Looks like this is the right chatroom... so I'm signing off my "sock puppet" :)

Oct 06 15:18:02 * Lensman2 has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Oct 06 15:18:55 <Lensman> To what do we owe the honor of the oft-mentioned but seldom seen appearance of Nesssus?

Oct 06 15:19:11 <UncleNasty> hrm... my wife is now complaining that the new net connection is too fast - it's interfering with her pysol time

Oct 06 15:19:50 <Dan> A net connection that is "too fast"? No such animal, sorry. LOL!

Oct 06 15:20:11 <UncleNasty> i'm right there with you, Dan

Oct 06 15:20:22 <Lensman> "Internet connection" and "too fast" in the same sentence. Hmmmm... isn't that like "too many" and "books" in the same sentence? :)

Oct 06 15:20:41 <UncleNasty> OK, Nesssus, I have removed the S&M themed picture from facebook :P

Oct 06 15:20:52 <Dan> That's like complaining that the atmosphere has too much oxygen in it.

Oct 06 15:20:59 <Lensman> What means "pysol time"?

Oct 06 15:21:12 <UncleNasty> pysol is a solitaire game

Oct 06 15:21:24 <UncleNasty> writ in python

Oct 06 15:21:38 <Lensman> Well, if the percentage of oxygen went up several percent, you wouldn't complain... just pass out from oxygen narcosis.

Oct 06 15:22:03 <Dan> Pedant.

Oct 06 15:23:01 <Dan> OK, then to correct the analogy, "that's like complaining that the beer is too cold, and free as well.

Oct 06 15:23:03 <Dan> "

Oct 06 15:23:12 <Lensman> No, *this* is being pedantic: But there's a theory that the Earth's atmosphere had a significantly higher percentage of oxygen in the distant past, which is why we have fossils of gigantic insects.

Oct 06 15:23:30 <UncleNasty> i think most of those buggers live around here :S

Oct 06 15:23:42 <Lensman> "Beer is fun, sex is free, we're the class of '73!"

Oct 06 15:24:11 <UncleNasty> we've had a couple of years of badly upset ecology, thanks to "clever" people

Oct 06 15:25:58 <Dan> I can understand that. I've had to change brands of fire ant killer twice in the last three years.

Oct 06 15:26:23 <UncleNasty> we had some imported timber contaminated with beetle larvae

Oct 06 15:26:42 <UncleNasty> so, they brought in moths, which normally control these beetles

Oct 06 15:26:55 <UncleNasty> the moths prefer other food in ontario to the beetle larvae

Oct 06 15:27:03 <UncleNasty> so the moths became a pest as well

Oct 06 15:27:16 <UncleNasty> so they brought in a breed of fly that eats the moth larvae

Oct 06 15:27:25 <Dan> That's progress for you. LOL!

Oct 06 15:27:25 <UncleNasty> but the flies prefer ontario earthworms

Oct 06 15:27:51 <UncleNasty> and now we have the timber beetles, moths and flies pushing local insects out of their regular patterns

Oct 06 15:28:03 <Lensman> Attempts to introduce flora or fauna to "control a problem" often remind me of the nursery song "There Was an Old Lady Who Swallowed a Fly"

Oct 06 15:28:28 <UncleNasty> yeah - read up on the lady-bug epidemic in toronto...

Oct 06 15:29:19 <UncleNasty>

Oct 06 15:31:27 <UncleNasty> i think it was asian long-horn beetles that were originally imported

Oct 06 15:33:24 <Lensman> Any idea if Larry has been/ will be here today?

Oct 06 15:33:38 <Dan> Hasn't been here yet.

Oct 06 15:33:57 <UncleNasty> I am trying not to read my new pratchett book in one sitting today

Oct 06 15:34:07 <Dan> That's hard to do.

Oct 06 15:34:15 <SeanS> very hard

Oct 06 15:34:26 <UncleNasty> yeah - been waiting for Making Money to arrive for a few days now

Oct 06 15:34:31 <Dan> I can never make a new Pratchett book last longer than three hours.

Oct 06 15:34:36 <UncleNasty> new ISP & new book - it's like xmas

Oct 06 15:35:06 <SeanS> welcome to the no delay high speed world, neil

Oct 06 15:35:16 <UncleNasty> lol

Oct 06 15:35:24 <UncleNasty> I _had_ high speed

Oct 06 15:35:31 <UncleNasty> it just had 3 seconds of ping latency

Oct 06 15:35:46 <SeanS> i know all about it... my best friend is on wildblue

Oct 06 15:36:03 <Nesssus> I've just lost my connection too

Oct 06 15:36:15 <UncleNasty> not to mention the fact that they have a 'fair access policy" which was anything but fair

Oct 06 15:36:31 <SeanS> yep... i would be very dissatisfied

Oct 06 15:36:59 <Nesssus> reading back.... bored on saturday evening, just remembered this old chat

Oct 06 15:37:04 <UncleNasty> i had an argument with one of their techs that their fair access policy was badly out-dated

Oct 06 15:37:41 <Lensman> Some time back, before graduating to high-speed cable connection, I signed up for PeoplePC, a dial-up service. Possibly the worst customer experience I've ever had.

Oct 06 15:37:46 <UncleNasty> he had the gall to infer that wanting to download more than 160mb in 24 hours was only important if you were pirating movies and music

Oct 06 15:38:27 <UncleNasty> i pointed out that it was "service pack 2"

Oct 06 15:38:43 <SeanS> just checked giganews stats and i have downloaded 65.79 gig in the last 18.59 days

Oct 06 15:39:01 <UncleNasty> yarrr! hoist the jolly roger, maties!

Oct 06 15:40:04 <SeanS> think tho... thats just giganews. not web pages, emails or any other method of transfer.

Oct 06 15:41:03 <SeanS> the sat 'fair use' policy would not work for me

Oct 06 15:41:07 <Lensman> When I called up to cancel the service, first they refused to talk to me about the account. Kept insisting my name wasn't on it. I finally realized they had changed the name to that of a friend whose credit card I had used for payment. Then the guy got nasty when I told him I wanted to cancel. I was quit frank with him-- I was tired of being kicked offline every 4 hours, even if I was actively online at the time. He gave me the company line, claim

Oct 06 15:41:10 <Dan> I usually get more than 160mb of spam e-mails in a day. And when I put a new issue of Aphelion online, the comments on the stories can run to half a gig a day.

Oct 06 15:41:47 <UncleNasty> oh man - we put a barracude spam gateway in on the work network

Oct 06 15:41:57 <UncleNasty> you would not believe the ratio of spam to real mail

Oct 06 15:43:04 <UncleNasty> today, for example

Oct 06 15:43:08 <Nesssus> Neil - much better

Oct 06 15:43:14 <UncleNasty> they have a shift working in one of the warehouses

Oct 06 15:43:14 <Dan> I dunno. One day last week I got over 4000 spams vs 5 good e-mails. I spent half an hour deleting spams from my ISPs spam trap.

Oct 06 15:43:25 <Lensman> So, is there any realistic way to cut spam down to no more than a trickle? What changes to the Internet would be required to prevent someone from "spoofing" someone else's e-mail address?

Oct 06 15:43:28 <UncleNasty> 885 spam, 124 good

Oct 06 15:43:54 <UncleNasty> Lensman: there are protocols in place, but it would drop 90% of businesses out of the email business

Oct 06 15:44:16 <UncleNasty> because they'd need techs who new how to set up properly authorised smtp servers

Oct 06 15:44:30 <SeanS> use a gmail account and get your mail with a pop3 email client. i never see spam unless i check the spam filter by web

Oct 06 15:44:43 <Lensman> UN: Okay, can you explain why in words of as few syllables as possible? :)

Oct 06 15:45:03 <Lensman> Oh, you just did.

Oct 06 15:45:10 <UncleNasty> lol - it's possible to set up a mail server so that it will only talk to other, correctly identified mail servers

Oct 06 15:45:26 <UncleNasty> setting up a mail server to correctly identify itself is not that hard

Oct 06 15:45:53 <UncleNasty> _but_ it's not something your average MS server jockey would be able to get their head around easily

Oct 06 15:46:39 <Lensman> MS = MicroSatan?

Oct 06 15:46:45 <UncleNasty> heh - we have an upcoming exec meeting where they're gonna complain about how much we've spent on IT infrastructure

Oct 06 15:46:49 <UncleNasty> yeah

Oct 06 15:47:09 <UncleNasty> we did a mail server replacement - replaced an outdated exchange server with novell groupwise

Oct 06 15:47:44 <UncleNasty> they're gonna complain about the $120k we spent, but they're not gonna even think about the additional $500k it would have cost to put a properly licensed exchange solution in place

Oct 06 15:48:38 <SeanS> thats because they dont see or understand the IT infrastructure

Oct 06 15:48:48 <Nesssus> my arms ache

Oct 06 15:49:00 <UncleNasty> Nesssus: too much typing?

Oct 06 15:49:23 <Nesssus> no 36km of go karting yesterday

Oct 06 15:49:27 <Lensman> Nesssus: Well no one said you had to hold up the Puppeteer sock-puppets *all day*...

Oct 06 15:49:45 <UncleNasty> heh

Oct 06 15:49:45 <Lensman> Sounds like fun!

Oct 06 15:50:02 <Nesssus> i smashed three people off the track. One of them was my boss. lol

Oct 06 15:50:11 <UncleNasty> Lensman: Yeah - MS = the great satan

Oct 06 15:50:14 <UncleNasty> LOL

Oct 06 15:50:59 <Lensman> I thought "MicroSatan" was the standard insult-label for MicroSoft. Sorry if I was being obscure.

Oct 06 15:51:22 <Nesssus> I've not heard it before

Oct 06 15:51:24 <SeanS> there are plenty

Oct 06 15:51:26 <UncleNasty> s'ok - I try not to think about them too much - it makes me angry

Oct 06 15:51:46 <UncleNasty> computers pre-MS were a lot more fun

Oct 06 15:51:54 <UncleNasty> it's one of the reasons I am enjoying apple

Oct 06 15:51:57 <Lensman> I guess the predominance of that insult-label is just a local thing, then.

Oct 06 15:52:07 <SeanS> i am enjoying it a bunch more now that i have switched to linux

Oct 06 15:52:28 <Lensman> *Sigh* Yah, the Apple II was the most fun I ever had using a 'puter. Using *or* programming.

Oct 06 15:52:42 <SeanS> i had a IIgs that i still miss

Oct 06 15:52:42 <UncleNasty> yeah - I've managed to take my employers' network to mostly linux backbone, with a mix of apple, linux & windows desktops

Oct 06 15:53:08 <UncleNasty> i was impressed that OSX ships with a full suite of development tools

Oct 06 15:53:43 <SeanS> havent messed with OSX but mark firestone talks it up all the time

Oct 06 15:53:48 <Dan> OK, got to run to the grocery store with my wife. BBL...

Oct 06 15:53:57 <UncleNasty> kk Dan - ttyl

Oct 06 15:53:59 <NickE> later Dan

Oct 06 15:54:04 <Lensman> If I used my 'puter strictly for work purposes, absolutely I'd switch to Linux or some other open-source OS. That's the only way to get off the money-sucking required-upgrade treadmill.

Oct 06 15:54:08 * Dan is now known as Dan_Away

Oct 06 15:54:24 <Lensman> But until I can play my games under Linux, I'll be sticking to Windoz.

Oct 06 15:54:31 <UncleNasty> Lensman: what games?

Oct 06 15:54:43 <UncleNasty> check out Transgaming Cedega

Oct 06 15:54:47 <SeanS> with wine and cedega, not much you cant play

Oct 06 15:55:06 <UncleNasty> yeah - I was surprised by how much software is available mac-native

Oct 06 15:55:18 <Lensman> Civilization II and Master of Orion II is what I play, almost exclusively. Very occasionally Alpha Centari, or some freeware adventure game.

Oct 06 15:55:42 <Nesssus> those are old games....

Oct 06 15:55:44 <UncleNasty> moo2 is cool

Oct 06 15:55:50 <UncleNasty> i can play that under parallels

Oct 06 15:56:00 <Lensman> Oldies but goodies... hopefully kinda like myself. :)

Oct 06 15:56:03 <UncleNasty> alpha centauri I already have a linux native version

Oct 06 15:56:51 <UncleNasty> I have recently found an awesome little game called "Strange Adventures in Infinite Space"

Oct 06 15:56:59 <UncleNasty> it's good for a laugh

Oct 06 15:57:10 <UncleNasty> "Explore the known universe in 20 minutes or less!"

Oct 06 15:57:50 <Lensman> Actually I broke my Civ II cd recently. I can play with reduced multimedia options... but I need to find out if it's available as a download, or if I'm gonna have to find some place selling old games. My own fault for not making a backup and using that to play with, of course.

Oct 06 15:58:28 <UncleNasty> ouch

Oct 06 15:59:17 <Lensman> I really, really, really wish I could play the old Apple II game "Colonial Conquest". It's something I can finish much more quickly than Civ II or MOO II, and occasionally I'd like a shorter game. I've even tried downloading Apple II emulators, but haven't been able to get them to function properly on my machine.

Oct 06 16:00:08 <UncleNasty> Lensman:

Oct 06 16:00:24 <UncleNasty> _or_, you could check out Transcendence

Oct 06 16:00:32 <Lensman> I still have my old Colonial Conquest boxed game. Doesn't do me much good, of course, unless I were to buy a working Apple II.

Oct 06 16:01:08 <SeanS> that is a fun game, UN

Oct 06 16:01:22 <UncleNasty> SeanS: did you finally check it out?

Oct 06 16:01:28 <SeanS> i see civ, civ 3, and civ 4 available.

Oct 06 16:01:41 <Lensman> Even then, the floppy disk is probably no longer usable.

Oct 06 16:02:25 <SeanS> probably not... floppies die all on their own

Oct 06 16:02:26 <Lensman> "Avaliable" as in, available to buy, or available as a free abandonware download?

Oct 06 16:02:31 * Hippy (~captlychee@ has joined #knownspace

Oct 06 16:02:37 <SeanS> lets just say available

Oct 06 16:02:39 <UncleNasty> hiya Hippy

Oct 06 16:02:39 <Lensman> Welcome hippy!

Oct 06 16:02:48 <Hippy> Morning, everyone

Oct 06 16:03:14 <SeanS> i will check abandonware.. hold on

Oct 06 16:03:20 <Hippy> Did anyone answer Dave Lambert's question about putting all the polluting factories into orbit to turn the Earth into a park?

Oct 06 16:03:28 <UncleNasty> Lensman: if you want a nice, simple little RPG game in the mould of Star Command, check out

Oct 06 16:04:06 <SeanS>

Oct 06 16:04:43 <Hippy> Civ2? I think I have that on CD somewhere

Oct 06 16:05:26 <SeanS> lensman is looking for it

Oct 06 16:06:01 <UncleNasty> lol - dungeon master! now there's a blast from the past

Oct 06 16:06:04 <Hippy> Well, I believe I can accommodate you, Lens

Oct 06 16:06:27 <Hippy> Oh, yes, I remember that. Good sound for its day

Oct 06 16:06:28 <SeanS> great game... i loved the command 'war cry'

Oct 06 16:07:03 <Lensman> Hippy: I looked, but couldn't find any specific reference to moving factories into orbit. I did find some passages in stories which dance around the subject, such as the end of "At the Bottom of a Hole". There's also a passing mention of pollution in the section of Rw where Nessus talks about heat pollution. I wonder if what Dave L. is looking for exists or not. But I'm not ready to claim it doesn't.

Oct 06 16:07:08 * Hippy has just noticed that Nessus is aboard. Hi there, he says, not having met Nessus before

Oct 06 16:07:57 <SeanS> well, i gotta get ready for a birthday dinner for my best friends 16 year old today daughter

Oct 06 16:08:03 <Lensman> I haven't "met" Nesssus (note 3 S's) typeface-to-typeface before, either.

Oct 06 16:08:20 <Hippy> There's a quote on the tape 'An Hour With Larry Niven' where he says 'The way to turn the Earth into a park is to move all the polluting industries into orbit' but that's the only reference I can remember

Oct 06 16:08:47 <Lensman> Hippy: Okay, how can I get a copy? Is it possible to e-mail me the files, or should I request you mail a copy of the disc to me?

Oct 06 16:09:32 <Hippy> I"ll do a copy of the disks. Nero should get around copy protection that old. I also have two of the expansions which I can do for you as well

Oct 06 16:09:34 <SeanS> just download it from the link... 20 meg. i am sure it comes with a no-cd crack

Oct 06 16:09:57 <Lensman> Dang. I *used* to have that tape... wonder where it is now? I don't think I've seen it since my last move. Frankly, I'd completely forgotten that.

Oct 06 16:10:47 <Lensman> SeanS: I'm talking about getting a copy of the Civ II game disc. Is that what you're talking about?

Oct 06 16:10:51 <Hippy> Sadly I have no way of getting it onto MP3 at the moment, not having a cassette player. But I'd better do something about it before it fades away

Oct 06 16:11:09 <SeanS> yep

Oct 06 16:11:25 <Lensman> Indeed, I'd think anything that old would be seriously degraded. As they say: Tape rusts.

Oct 06 16:11:44 <Hippy> LOL! That it does

Oct 06 16:12:31 <Hippy> As it's only voice it probably isn't too bad, but I'm now committed to the idea of putting it onto MP3

Oct 06 16:12:37 <Lensman> Sean: May I e-mail you to get details? I suspect what you're suggesting is over my head. I've never used anything like a "no CD crack".

Oct 06 16:12:47 <SeanS> lensman, getting a no-cd crack to any game you buy is a good thing. means the cd stays in the case and dramatically reduces the risk of breakage

Oct 06 16:13:30 <Lensman> Surely there's someone on the list who has the equipment and expertise to digitize an audio tape?

Oct 06 16:14:08 <Hippy> Bound to be. They probably have the actual tape, too

Oct 06 16:14:52 <Lensman> Sean: Civ II has videos which play directly off the disc, so as designed the game requires a disc to be in the computer to enjoy all the game options. Perhaps there's a work-around for that-- I've read about a "ram disc"-- but again that sort of thing is over my head.

Oct 06 16:15:18 <UncleNasty> Lensman: most times you can copy the data off the disk and run it with a no-cd patch

Oct 06 16:16:01 <Lensman> Hippy: I think the thing to do would be to e-mail Larry and get his permission to digitize the tape and post it to the 'net. Considering what he's allowed to be posted, my guess is he'd agree.

Oct 06 16:16:34 <Lensman> UN: Quite possibly, if only I knew how to do that.

Oct 06 16:16:59 <Hippy> That's a good idea. I shall do that. Then find someone who can digitise it

Oct 06 16:17:04 <SeanS> well, i have to get ready to go... lensman, email me and i will see if i can type you through it.

Oct 06 16:17:24 <Lensman> Thanx Sean!

Oct 06 16:17:26 <Hippy> 'Bye, Sean

Oct 06 16:18:16 <Hippy> Ah, 'thanx'. That should be on the list of Nivenisms

Oct 06 16:18:26 * EML (~EML@ has joined #knownspace

Oct 06 16:18:32 <Lensman> Hi Ed!

Oct 06 16:18:36 <UncleNasty> i'm seriously gonna have to put together an old machine for playing older games on

Oct 06 16:18:39 <Hippy> Morning, Ed

Oct 06 16:18:41 <UncleNasty> hi EML

Oct 06 16:19:08 <UncleNasty> argh

Oct 06 16:19:10 <EML> Hi Everyone!

Oct 06 16:19:22 <UncleNasty> mine evil wife is baking cinnamon rolls

Oct 06 16:19:28 <Lensman> Ed, were you able to get the correction re: length of #2 GP hull made to the text of FOW, or was it too late?

Oct 06 16:19:29 <UncleNasty> the smell is killing me!

Oct 06 16:19:31 <Hippy> Yes, Uncle. I should stick an extra drive in my 486 and use that. Hmm. A good Spring project. . .

Oct 06 16:19:50 <EML> Though here in Virginia it's late afternoon.

Oct 06 16:19:52 <UncleNasty> I recently found a box of games I haven't unboxed in about 8 years

Oct 06 16:20:09 <Hippy> It probably isn't Spring, either :)

Oct 06 16:20:12 <Lensman> "Killing" as in your mouth is watering so much you're in danger of drowning? :)

Oct 06 16:20:16 <UncleNasty> Battlezone is awesome, but crashes on a fast processor

Oct 06 16:20:27 <EML> Dave, re the length correction -- it didn't make the hardback, but it should be in the paperback.

Oct 06 16:20:29 <UncleNasty> killing as in I'm salivating enough to risk drowning

Oct 06 16:20:35 <NickE> Hi Ed

Oct 06 16:20:49 <Lensman> EML: Too bad :(

Oct 06 16:21:29 <Lensman> Ed: If we spot anything we think needs to be corrected in JOW, how soon do we need to get it to you?

Oct 06 16:22:10 <EML> Dave, you found one point confusing absent an explanation. So did another ARC reader, so that, too, will be addressed in the PB

Oct 06 16:22:56 <Hippy> This is looking like I'll need to get both versions. . .

Oct 06 16:23:19 <Lensman> Ed: Thanks again. Altho in retrospect I think I should have been able to see my way out of that "box". Sometimes I treat the canon too much as "Sacred Writings", and don't try thinking outside the box.

Oct 06 16:23:35 <EML> Something fishy in FLEET that can be addressed in Juggler? I don't have hard dates yet, but you have at least a couple more months.

Oct 06 16:24:22 <Lensman> Okay. I hope I can wrangle a peek at an ARC. Will there be ARCs going out for JOW within the two-month time limit?

Oct 06 16:24:44 * Hippy afk briefly to get morning sustenance

Oct 06 16:25:50 <Lensman> Ed: Er, no, I mean if I can get an advanced peek at JOW then I want to know how long I'd have to get you the same sort of suggested corrections that I sent you for FOW, but hopefully in time to actually make a change this time.

Oct 06 16:25:57 <EML> The mail list has been arguing about canon and when/where the FLEET is. No one referred to the framing story in CRASHLANDER. In Ghost, Beowulf is shown a picture of the Fleet a few years after it fled. Tnhat's well before Sunfire (which is forty years after the Fleet fled). So yes, Sunfire appears non-canonical.

Oct 06 16:26:51 <Lensman> Ed: Ack! A good point, I consign myself to sackcloth-and-ashes for overlooking that.

Oct 06 16:27:41 <EML> Distribution of ARCs is by the publisher, so the most honest answer I can give s: I don't know.

Oct 06 16:28:53 <EML> But I suspect ARCs are more than two months out.

Oct 06 16:29:32 <Lensman> -k-

Oct 06 16:30:51 <EML> Dumb question: when/where did Sunfire first appear?

Oct 06 16:31:20 <Hippy> On the website, I thought, but as to when I don't know

Oct 06 16:31:26 <Lensman> -- /Bridging the Galaxies/, a convention collection like /Niven's Laws/

Oct 06 16:31:46 <Hippy> Ah. . .

Oct 06 16:32:03 <EML> Any idea who the nameless protagonist is?

Oct 06 16:33:01 <Lensman> Nov '93 according to the bibliography, which I presume is accurate.

Oct 06 16:33:22 <Hippy> It could be a young Louis Wu

Oct 06 16:34:02 <EML> Crashlander is (c) 1994. Curious.

Oct 06 16:34:30 <EML> Hippy: why do you guess Louis Wu?

Oct 06 16:35:21 <Hippy> Because he would be around 35 by then (forty years after the Fleet left) and could be touring around Known Space

Oct 06 16:35:27 <Lensman> Are you asking us? No, not a hint. Intriguingly, he was working for the "Pleione", but we don't know if that was a trading company, a religious sect, an otherwise unmentioned starfaring species, or what.

Oct 06 16:35:59 <NickE> brb

Oct 06 16:36:16 <EML> I was merely asking, not dropping hints about any future story.

Oct 06 16:36:27 <Lensman> Larry has declared "Sunfire" to be "obsolete", but never clarified if that meant non-canonical or just that he could no longer sell the story.

Oct 06 16:36:42 <Hippy> It could just as easily be the bloke from 'The Handicapped'

Oct 06 16:37:10 <EML> Or it could be someone we've never heard of.

Oct 06 16:37:47 <Hippy> Absolutely. But it's more elegant to keep the canon tight and recycle characters :)'

Oct 06 16:37:50 <Lensman> I don't think Garvey would be hiring out as a pilot for a trading company. He has his own company's concerns. But I agree with what I think is your basic point, that there's no reason to think it's Louis any more than any other of the billions of humans in KS.

Oct 06 16:38:22 <EML> My guess (but I'm not putting words in Larry's mouth) is Sunfire's view of the Fleet was superceded by Ghost's view of the Fleet.

Oct 06 16:38:30 <Hippy> Oops. I'd forgotten he was a pilot. Quite right.

Oct 06 16:40:03 <EML> "Keeping canon tight and reusing characters" creates the complicating factor of creating lots of coincidences. In time, those coincidences demand an explanation (THAT is a pointer to Juggler of Worlds).

Oct 06 16:40:11 <Lensman> Here's a hint to his age: "Luckily I'd already earned my spaceman's papers. With no money left, I'd have had to drop out of grad school."

Oct 06 16:41:03 <Hippy> That would probably make him younger than Louis Wu

Oct 06 16:41:19 <UncleNasty> brb - thanksgiving prep

Oct 06 16:42:43 <Hippy> Ed: you're right about having to explain coincidences. Now my mind has gone blank but I'm trying to think of the show where all these coincidences ultimately added up to a grand, but very stupid, plan. Not 'Star Wars', although that's a good working example

Oct 06 16:42:56 <Lensman> Wait, wait, wait... the photo in "Ghost" popped up well *after* the Puppeteer migration began, and "Sunfire" was immediately *before*. So why couldn't the fleet have been formed in the meantime?

Oct 06 16:43:40 <EML> Sunfire is 40 years after the Exodus. Ghost is seven years after.

Oct 06 16:44:16 <SeanS> I am not looking at any of this.... i dont want any hints

Oct 06 16:44:26 <EML> "A grand but stupid plan" ... sounds like a book title (perhaps, even better, "A Grand but Stoopid Plan").

Oct 06 16:44:38 <Lensman> Yes, but Dr. Schultz-Mann saw the Puppeteer homeworld immediately *before* the migration began. In "Sunfire", he's telling an old story.

Oct 06 16:44:51 <EML> SeanS -- I'm not giving any hints -- I promise.

Oct 06 16:44:53 <Hippy> The novel length version of 'Down in Flames' :)

Oct 06 16:44:59 <Lensman> Sean: We are NOT talking about anything from FOW!

Oct 06 16:45:19 <SeanS> ok, just sat back down and glanced at the screen

Oct 06 16:46:24 <EML> Dave, you're right. Rich Mann is telling an old story, so perhaps Ghost doesn't conflict.

Oct 06 16:46:35 <Lensman> In "Sunfire", the unnamed title character visits Dr. Richard Schultz-Mann, who relates his sad tale of nearly gaining a fortune right around the time the Puppeteer migration began.

Oct 06 16:46:48 <Lensman> You can read the story for yourself, it's quite short:

Oct 06 16:47:00 <Lensman>

Oct 06 16:47:57 <Lensman> Sorry, my bad. The date of "Sunfire" is 40 years after the migration began, yes. But refers to events 40 years prior.

Oct 06 16:50:00 <Lensman> Now the *question* is, how long would it have taken the Puppeteers to have moved their planets into that formation? How quickly can the thrusters the Puppeteers bought from the Outsiders to move their worlds (as Rw specifies) accelerate them? FOW does, I think, specify how fast that is. Unfortunately we can't talk about that at this time.

Oct 06 16:51:12 <EML> Ringworld says some of the farm worlds are old. Hence they were moved to temperate orbits long ago. There's no obvious reason why the Puppeteers would not have parked them conveniently nearby.

Oct 06 16:51:30 <Lensman> As I said on the list, I expect there to be some debate over whether or not "Sunfire" is canon or not, after list members read FOW.

Oct 06 16:52:04 <EML> And JOW will provide even more grist for the mill.

Oct 06 16:52:58 <Lensman> Ed: That's the problem I have with "Sunfire" being canonical, too. Why would they leave the farm worlds far away from the homeworld? That would increase travel time significantly... NOT a good idea if the homeworld is depending on daily food shipments to feed the populace!

Oct 06 16:53:46 <EML> and not a good idea if you're a scaredy cat (er Puppeteer) and dislike space travel.

Oct 06 16:54:16 <Hippy> Couldn't they have moved the food by stepping disc?

Oct 06 16:54:28 <Lensman> Ed, have you discussed with Larry whether or not "Sunfire" is canonical.?

Oct 06 16:54:53 <Lensman> Hippy: I think that would be getting into plot spoilers for FOW.

Oct 06 16:55:08 <EML> Stepping discs can't absorb unlmited kinetic-energy differences -- in Ringworld Engineer, that is an important constraint.

Oct 06 16:55:23 <Lensman> Or maybe not... yes, that is brought up in RE.

Oct 06 16:55:50 <EML> True confessions -- I was unaware of Sunfire until this week, when it appeared on the list.

Oct 06 16:56:35 <Hippy> True, but is the kinetic energy difference that great? In RE it's because two points are whipping around at 770 mps. The farm worlds wouldn't revolve around the homeworld that fast. . .would they?

Oct 06 16:57:10 <EML> Now we're approaching details I prefer not to get into ...

Oct 06 16:57:27 <Lensman> And I don't understand the limit, or else apparently it changed. RE suggests they could teleport some significant percentage of the arc of the Ringworld... that would suggest a very large kinetic-energy difference, wouldn't it? As the Ring is spinning at roughly 3% lightspeed? Yet I think in Rw it's said the stepping discs can't handle transporting from one world to another. Shouldn't that be a much lower kinetic-energy difference?

Oct 06 16:58:06 <Lensman> Ed: Okay, but I'm baffled as to why that would be a plot spoiler.

Oct 06 16:58:26 <Hippy> We'll hav to read to find out :)

Oct 06 17:00:12 <EML> Some inconsistencies have crept into canon about the capabilities/limitations of stepping discs. After RE, Hindmost has new discs with unlimited range.

Oct 06 17:00:16 <SeanS> yep... looking forward to it.... when is the release date?

Oct 06 17:00:59 <Hippy> Yes. .Louis does get around a bit in RC

Oct 06 17:01:12 <EML> Release date is 10/16, but you can preorder any time. And at the moment Amazon has a pre-order discount of an extra 5%.

Oct 06 17:01:23 <Hippy> Then again, RC is a bloodbath of slaughtered sacred cows. . .

Oct 06 17:01:51 <EML> meat me in St. Louis, Louis (Wu)?

Oct 06 17:01:56 <Hippy> I"ve pre-ordered, but I may also pre-order the paperback

Oct 06 17:01:59 <UncleNasty> meh - I never liked the modifications to stepping disk functionality

Oct 06 17:02:45 <Lensman> Actually I don't think that's so hard to belive, about the discrepancy. The Puppeteers on their homeworld, for everyday transport, would depend only on the very safest, most thoroughly tested technology. Hindmost would have been in a position to commandeer more cutting-edge or experimental technology.

Oct 06 17:02:52 <UncleNasty> I can accept that range is no longer a limit as from the map of mars, the hindmost could tie into the superconductor grid as an inertial shunt, but I found the jump from "an open transfer booth" to a dimensional portal a little too much

Oct 06 17:02:57 <EML> Except Amazon Canada, I don't think the PB is available yet for preorder.

Oct 06 17:04:08 <Hippy> Well, in due course I'll pre-order it. We may even have an by then :)

Oct 06 17:05:01 <EML> It's odd that Amazon hasn't opened an .au version yet.

Oct 06 17:05:23 <Hippy> Sadly, no. We're a bit small a market for them, I think.

Oct 06 17:05:54 <Lensman> But it's so hard to read those upside-down invoices! And the upside-down text display on the 'puter screens, that must be very confusing for the home office.

Oct 06 17:05:57 <Hippy> But I can always wait until the PB is available for pre-order

Oct 06 17:06:51 <Hippy> The hell with them. How do they think we cope with extraneous 'z's everywhere and those absurdly long postcodes???

Oct 06 17:07:01 <UncleNasty> brb again

Oct 06 17:07:04 <UncleNasty> walkin the dog

Oct 06 17:07:20 <Lensman> What

Oct 06 17:07:26 <Lensman> What's your postal code, Hippy?

Oct 06 17:07:27 <Hippy> And 50 States! Didn't you know when to stop????

Oct 06 17:07:42 <Lensman> LOL! Wretched excess, that's us Yanks. :)

Oct 06 17:07:48 <Hippy> Mine is 3046 - but of course we have far fewer towns than you do

Oct 06 17:09:33 <Hippy> Hmm. Postcodes. . .at least we're not in Canada or the UK. Egad. . .

Oct 06 17:10:20 <Hippy> "I live in Saskatoon. That's " (reach into Scrabble bag and throw some tiles on the table)

Oct 06 17:10:23 <Lensman> Maybe your post office is just better organized. There was a lot of resistance here in the States to adding the +4 digits after the initial 5 Zip Code digits (apologies for the "z" in Zip). It was pointed out that, evenly distributed, every football-field-sized patch of ground in the USA could have its own postal code.

Oct 06 17:11:02 <Hippy> That's well worked out

Oct 06 17:11:04 <Lensman> Sorry, "sised". :)

Oct 06 17:11:08 <EML> and misdelivered mail to every $%^#@!! one.

Oct 06 17:11:26 <Hippy> LOL!

Oct 06 17:13:19 <Hippy> Hmm. You have 000000000 to 999999999 with those ZIIP (Zone IMprovement Improvement Program) codes, so each person on the planet could have their own

Oct 06 17:13:31 <Lensman> Actually I think the Canadians have a better system. Using letters gives you a base 26, as opposed to the base 10 of numbers. Lots more room for more postal codes in the Canadian system than the American one.

Oct 06 17:13:38 <Hippy> Oh, no, wait. Not enough digits

Oct 06 17:15:13 <EML> and there's IP v6.

Oct 06 17:15:19 <Hippy> Well, yes, if you distribute the letters evenly. I like ours because you can take a stab that 3046 is geographically near 3047 without having to remember strings of letters like you do in Canada.

Oct 06 17:15:28 <Lensman> Well, having worked for the Post Awful, I can say that on the +4 digits, the first two are a code indicating what type of route (commercial, residential, rural, etc) while the final two are a route number. At least that's what I seem to recall. So you see, they're atually ruling out a lot of possible numbers there.

Oct 06 17:16:14 <Lensman> Ed: What means "IP v6" ?

Oct 06 17:16:46 <Hippy> Oh, yes, the dreaded increase in digits to define an IP address.

Oct 06 17:17:06 <Lensman> Ah, thanks.

Oct 06 17:17:40 <Lensman> Is this going to be as big a computer programming headache as the year 2000?

Oct 06 17:17:49 <Hippy> I think they're running out addresses under the nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn method, so they're adding an extra lot of numbers in there

Oct 06 17:18:23 <EML> INternet Protocol, version 6. The common version now in use, v4, uses 32-bit addressing. v5 never happened. v6, thatr's been around the corner for a few years, has 128-bit addressing.

Oct 06 17:18:35 <Hippy> It should be seamless, and allow more IP addresses, thus giving people in Uganda or Niue access to pre-ordering JOW from Amazon

Oct 06 17:18:43 <EML> LOL

Oct 06 17:19:50 <Hippy> I used to love the stat that people quoted back in the 90's "Only five percent of the people in Uganda have access to the Internet." What the expletive deleted would they do with it if they did have it?

Oct 06 17:20:30 <Lensman> Well, anything that will increase Ed's royalties is a *good* thing! :) <asskisser!>

Oct 06 17:20:46 <EML> Read uncensored news.

Oct 06 17:20:57 <EML> Dave: I blush.

Oct 06 17:21:30 <Lensman> What Ed said. The Internet is *not* just for shopping!

Oct 06 17:21:40 <Hippy> Uncensored news? Well, they can get onto the LarryNiven mailing list

Oct 06 17:21:44 <EML> I meant to mention, by the way, that interviewed me recently about FLEET.

Oct 06 17:22:08 <Hippy> I shall have to read that

Oct 06 17:23:12 <Lensman> Is that the expletitive deleted website that offered up a thorough summary of about 2/3 of FOW as a so-called "review"? Tanj am I ticked off at them! I mean, why would the average reader want to bother buying the book after that? (Not that anyone here is the "average reader")

Oct 06 17:23:32 <Lensman> But anyway, if you can give us a link to your interview I'd appreciate it.

Oct 06 17:24:23 <EML> I think that was the SCI FI Weekly review (which besides spoilers, also gets misread some detail).

Oct 06 17:24:42 <Lensman> Oh, different website. Okay.

Oct 06 17:25:08 <EML> (also has a photo of me flying the shuttle simulator)

Oct 06 17:25:26 <Lensman> Ed: I should have said "thorough and inaccurate".

Oct 06 17:26:26 <EML> Truly, some reviews are better than others (by which I don't mean "more favorable).

Oct 06 17:28:13 * NickE has quit ()

Oct 06 17:28:16 * NickE (~NickE@ has joined #knownspace

Oct 06 17:28:34 <NickE> wups

Oct 06 17:28:43 <Lensman> Ed: You did the first draft of FOW? Interesting. It reads so much like something by Niven alone. Were you consciously trying to emulate his writing style? Or was that more from his rewrites?

Oct 06 17:29:45 <Hippy> I like the tag line for Fool's Experiments

Oct 06 17:29:54 <Lensman> One notable difference is the female protagonist... something which Larry rarely if ever does.

Oct 06 17:30:17 <EML> To an extent I was consciously going for that style. Also, I sent off avery few chapters, lest I diverge.

Oct 06 17:31:05 <EML> Hippy: re Fools' Experiments -- thanks. It's now looking like FE will be out around October 2008.

Oct 06 17:32:10 <Lensman> LOL! That's a great tag line, all right.

Oct 06 17:32:11 <Hippy> Another pre-order. . .

Oct 06 17:33:24 <EML> I've been advised dinner is in five minutes or so.

Oct 06 17:33:40 <Lensman> Then I'll say goodbye in advance, Ed.

Oct 06 17:34:20 <Lensman> Thanks for joining us. (Why yes, we *were* coming apart!)

Oct 06 17:34:40 <Hippy> 'Bye, Ed. This has been most interesting

Oct 06 17:34:47 <EML> Thanks to all for a stimulating discussion.

Oct 06 17:34:54 <NickE> Sorry to be so quiet, looong day

Oct 06 17:35:03 <EML> BTW, will anyone be at Capclave next weekend?

Oct 06 17:35:08 <NickE> Bye Ed, ta for dropping by

Oct 06 17:35:13 <Hippy> I regret not

Oct 06 17:35:20 <Lensman> Sounds like YOU will.

Oct 06 17:36:11 <EML> Okay, then -- bye, all. I exoect to be back next month when I *can* say something about FLEET.

Oct 06 17:36:24 <Lensman> Hear, hear! See you then.

Oct 06 17:36:30 <NickE> cool

Oct 06 17:36:46 <Hippy> It may even have got here by then :)

Oct 06 17:37:02 <EML> EML has left the building

Oct 06 17:37:10 <Lensman> :)

Oct 06 17:37:13 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Oct 06 17:38:18 <Hippy> Of course, I haven't even read 'Destiny's Forge' yet :(

Oct 06 17:38:31 <Lensman> "g0ne" Is that an in-joke or just a typo?

Oct 06 17:39:11 <Hippy> In-joke, I think. I think he's used it before (and in any case the 'quit' command is usually set up beforehand)

Oct 06 17:40:18 <Lensman> Yah, I assumed that was an automated thing, but I don't know 'nuff to know if that was something Sean has put in, or if it's built into IRC.

Oct 06 17:41:03 <Hippy> It's something Ed has put in. You can set up the options on your IRC client (such as mIRC) which I presume Ed was using

Oct 06 17:41:37 <Hippy> If he's come in via the website it's probably something Sean set up, but I don't think he's around to ask

Oct 06 17:42:21 <Lensman> Okay, thanx Hippy.

Oct 06 17:42:36 <Hippy> No worries

Oct 06 17:43:19 <Lensman> BTW did someone say "thanx" is a Nivenism? I thought I had picked that up from my local Internet discussion groups.

Oct 06 17:44:34 <Hippy> I mentioned it before. It's what they say in 'One Face'

Oct 06 17:45:00 <UncleNasty> i r back!

Oct 06 17:45:01 <Lensman> Lessee... /Convergent Series/ IIRC.

Oct 06 17:45:18 <Hippy> Yep. It's in there

Oct 06 17:45:28 <Hippy> Kewl, Uncle

Oct 06 17:45:36 <UncleNasty> argh - brb again

Oct 06 17:45:42 <Hippy> How were the cinnamon rolls?

Oct 06 17:45:49 <UncleNasty> cinnamoniny

Oct 06 17:46:07 <UncleNasty> RL needs a search function - got to help son find boot polish

Oct 06 17:46:51 <Hippy> RL?

Oct 06 17:47:11 * Hippy can't think what retailer that would stand for

Oct 06 17:47:30 <Lensman> Yup, "thanx" on p. 28 of /Convergent Series/.

Oct 06 17:50:41 <Lensman> Problem with online dictionaries is they're lacking in etemology. No clue as to what year "thanx" originated. I shall consult the OED...

Oct 06 17:50:57 <UncleNasty> RL = Real Life

Oct 06 17:52:35 <Lensman> I presume this means "What did I do with that futzy can of boot polish?", not "Where can my sun order a can of boot polish online?"

Oct 06 17:52:42 <UncleNasty> indeed

Oct 06 17:52:44 <Hippy> You have the OED?

Oct 06 17:52:58 <UncleNasty> as in "where the @^#%$@ are my gods damned socks??"

Oct 06 17:53:16 <Hippy> Oh. I thought it was the name of a shop. I was going to try and Google it

Oct 06 17:54:25 <Hippy> Imagine if life did have Google. You'd go "Where did I put my glasses?' (a common question after a night at the pub) and up would come five hundred answers about dating and finding your perfect lover

Oct 06 17:54:37 <Lensman> "Thanx" not in OED, presumably as it's too new.

Oct 06 17:55:07 <Lensman> Do I have the OED? What, doesn't *everyone* 8-O

Oct 06 17:55:27 <Lensman> Well, it's the compact version, comes with a magnifying glass-- and needs it!

Oct 06 17:55:28 <Hippy> The thing is HUGE! I could never afford it

Oct 06 17:55:56 <Hippy> There is, of course, but you have to subscribe to it

Oct 06 17:56:18 <Hippy> Doesn't have etymologies?

Oct 06 17:56:21 <Lensman> That would be convenient, but I'll stick to my paper version.

Oct 06 17:57:19 <Hippy> 'Thanx' is pretty rare, though. I've only ever seen it written in two places

Oct 06 17:57:47 <Hippy> Unlike 'plzthx' which crops up everywhere

Oct 06 17:58:06 <UncleNasty> ahh, you appear to speak lolcat

Oct 06 17:58:21 <Lensman> is what I have bookmarked. Typing in takes me to another site.

Oct 06 17:58:37 <Hippy> Never!! And I don't write 'great' with a number, either :)

Oct 06 17:58:59 <Lensman> Takes me to:

Oct 06 17:59:28 <Lensman> I've only seen "thanx" used online... and in the LN story Hippy pointed, out, which I certainly hadn't remembered.

Oct 06 17:59:29 <Hippy> Yep. And that scans a number of sites if you type a word in. It's pretty good and beautifully free

Oct 06 17:59:47 <UncleNasty>

Oct 06 17:59:58 <Hippy> I've only seen it in 'One Face' and here on this channel

Oct 06 18:00:17 <Hippy> God, there's a website for everything these days

Oct 06 18:00:28 <UncleNasty> dude, you have _no_ idea

Oct 06 18:00:33 <Lensman> gives zero hits. I'll stick to, thanx!

Oct 06 18:00:46 <UncleNasty> Hippy: have you seen or heard of avenue q?

Oct 06 18:00:47 <Hippy> Someone should translate 'Ringworld' into lolcat

Oct 06 18:01:14 <Hippy> Neither seen nor heard of it, Uncle


Oct 06 18:01:53 <Hippy> "I can has variable sword and is urging calm."

Oct 06 18:01:54 <UncleNasty> you on high speed, hippy? I'm about to launch an internet mind worm your way

Oct 06 18:02:09 <Lensman> ALL YR BASE R BELONG 2 US!

Oct 06 18:02:19 <Hippy> Yep. Cable at around 1MB a second

Oct 06 18:02:37 <Hippy> Lens, that is brilliant!

Oct 06 18:02:38 <UncleNasty>

Oct 06 18:02:47 <UncleNasty> it's a machinima that made the rounds a while back

Oct 06 18:05:43 <UncleNasty> heh - there is indeed a site for everything:

Oct 06 18:07:03 <Hippy> That's a good video. I admire the creativity of some people, and how so many can sing.

Oct 06 18:07:47 <Lensman> "I gots' some variable-swo'd," said Speaker-To-Animals. "I urge calm. 'S coo', bro." It took some moment fo' de wo'ds t'register. Ah be baaad... Den Louis turned, slowly, makin' no sudden gestures. De kzin stood against some curved wall. In one clawed fist he held sump'n likes an oversized jumprope handle. What it is, Mama! Ten feet fum de handle, held 'espuh'tly at da damn level uh de kzin's eyes, wuz some little-ass, glowin' red ball. De wire which j

Oct 06 18:08:16 <UncleNasty> egads bejesus

Oct 06 18:09:01 <Lensman> "Iway avehay away ariablevay-ordsway," aidsay eakerSpay-oTay-Animalsway. "Iway urgeway almcay." Itway ooktay away omentmay orfay ethay ordsway otay egisterray. enThay ouisLay urnedtay, owlyslay, akingmay onay uddensay esturesgay. eThay inkzay oodstay againstway away urvedcay allway. Inway oneway awedclay istfay ehay eldhay omethingsay ikelay anway oversizedway umpropejay andlehay. enTay eetfay omfray ethay andlehay, eldhay expertlyway atway ethay evell

Oct 06 18:09:42 <Lensman> "I hefe-a a fereeeble-a-svurd," seeed Speeker-Tu-Uneemels. "I urge-a celm." It tuuk a mument fur zee vurds tu regeester. Zeen Luooees toorned, slooly, mekeeng nu sooddee gestoores. Zee kzeen stuud egeeenst a coorfed vell. In oone-a cleved feest he-a held sumetheeng leeke-a un ooferseezed joomprupe-a hundle-a. Tee feet frum zee hundle-a, held ixpertly et zee lefel ooff zee kzeen's iyes, ves a smell, glooeeng red bell. Zee vure-a vheech jueened bell tu h

Oct 06 18:10:06 <Lensman> The "valley speak" version doesn't appear funny 'nuff to bother posting.

Oct 06 18:11:23 <UncleNasty> lol

Oct 06 18:11:34 <UncleNasty> thank finagle for that

Oct 06 18:11:59 <Hippy> Nicely done, though the first one didn't end with 'Ya know what I'm sayin'?'

Oct 06 18:13:26 <Lensman> LOL! Well you can complain to

Oct 06 18:14:23 <Hippy> One thing about this chatroom is the huge number of interesting sites you get.

Oct 06 18:14:59 <Hippy> Hmm. By my calculations it's around 5:15 in Texas. Where is Carol?

Oct 06 18:15:33 <Lensman> Well I seem to have misplaced my lens, or I'd call her.

Oct 06 18:16:02 <Hippy> She may have other things on. Damn these people and their lives :)

Oct 06 18:16:17 <Lensman> Yah, terrible when RL interferes with fanac!

Oct 06 18:17:00 * Received a CTCP PING 1191708926 from Hippy (to #knownspace)

Oct 06 18:18:22 <Lensman> What does "PING" indicate? (If you're not on a submarine, I mean.)

Oct 06 18:18:36 <UncleNasty> PING?

Oct 06 18:18:39 <UncleNasty> as in...

Oct 06 18:19:09 <Lensman> As in, I got a message on my screen that says "[Hippy:#knownspace PING]"

Oct 06 18:19:24 <UncleNasty> it meanz hippy ping'd you

Oct 06 18:20:13 <UncleNasty>

Oct 06 18:20:15 <Lensman> "Theez song I do not know, Senor"

Oct 06 18:20:35 <Hippy> It checks the time it takes to send a message to the channel and get a reply. I was just seeing whether anyone was really lagging and that was why they weren't talking

Oct 06 18:21:45 <Hippy> My assumption being that there might be a slight lag across 12000 miles of phone line and that was why Nesssus and Dan_Away were particularly silent

Oct 06 18:22:12 <Hippy> Oh, except that Dan_Away is obviously Away

Oct 06 18:22:27 <Lensman> Just hangin' out. What were we talking about before Ed showed up?

Oct 06 18:22:43 <Hippy> Er. . .just let me scroll up

Oct 06 18:23:17 <Hippy> Old computer games

Oct 06 18:23:32 <Lensman> Oh yes, digitizing "An Hour with Larry Niven", and Lensman's total cluelessness in things like patching a game so that the in-drive CD isn't needed.

Oct 06 18:23:46 <Hippy> I shall get some CDs to you tomorrow, Lens

Oct 06 18:24:13 <Hippy> Oh, yes. I will try to get that sorted, too

Oct 06 18:24:16 <Lensman> What, as in snail mail? Again Lensman is clueless...

Oct 06 18:24:49 <Hippy> Whereas, I'm totally clueless on this torrenting business and am hoping Euan will turn up so I can quiz him on it

Oct 06 18:25:00 <UncleNasty> huh?

Oct 06 18:25:14 <UncleNasty> torrents are easy so long as the sites don't block canadian IPs

Oct 06 18:25:18 <UncleNasty> b'stards

Oct 06 18:25:35 <Hippy> Euan Ritchie put me onto a site last month that claims to have certain UK programs I'm interested in, but I can't find them

Oct 06 18:26:00 <UncleNasty> check out

Oct 06 18:26:06 <UncleNasty> and download azureus

Oct 06 18:26:42 <Hippy> Yes, that was the advice from (download azureus) but I'll check out slotorrent

Oct 06 18:27:04 <UncleNasty> azureus manages your torrents

Oct 06 18:27:17 <UncleNasty> torrents are small pointer files that join you into the fileshare mesh

Oct 06 18:28:06 <Lensman> just google "bit torrent" + the title you're looking for. That's how I found a copy of the DVD version of "The Phantom Edit", altho a friend of mine who's a computer geek did the actual download for me.

Oct 06 18:29:01 <Hippy> Yes. What I'm after is '1990

Oct 06 18:29:22 <Hippy> ' and Euan said it was on UKNova but I can't find the damn thing

Oct 06 18:29:55 <Hippy> Slotorrent appears to have only recent stuff

Oct 06 18:30:30 <UncleNasty>

Oct 06 18:31:55 <Hippy> You are damn good at this

Oct 06 18:33:38 <UncleNasty> We flies the jolly roger over my compound ;)

Oct 06 18:35:56 <Lensman> Hippy, I dunno if I have your e-mail addy. Are you on the discussion list? If not, you can see my e-mail address at the bottom of the page at

Oct 06 18:36:03 <Hippy> I'm looking at the audio books. Some worth getting there

Oct 06 18:36:49 <Lensman> Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you'd send me an e-mail so I'll have your addy... I won't post my addy here, as these chats are archived online and a spammer webcrawler might pick it up there.

Oct 06 18:37:54 <Hippy> No worries

Oct 06 18:38:14 <Lensman> Thanx

Oct 06 18:39:02 <NickE> night i's knackered

Oct 06 18:39:17 * NickE has quit ()

Oct 06 18:44:31 <Hippy> Email duly sent

Oct 06 18:44:43 <Hippy> Ooh. 'Bye, Nick

Oct 06 18:45:43 <Lensman> Thanx again, Hippy.

Oct 06 18:48:06 <Hippy> No worries

Oct 06 18:52:04 <Hippy> And my contribution to the list of stupid websites:

Oct 06 18:55:35 <Lensman> LOL! That's a pretty good time-waster, alright. "According to the US Census Bureau°, 2.369% of US residents have the first name 'David' and fewer than 0.001% have the surname 'Sooby'. The US has around 300 million residents, so we guesstimate there are 0 'David Sooby's."

Oct 06 18:55:50 <Lensman> Actually AFAIK there are two in this country.

Oct 06 18:56:21 <Hippy> You should have the world's smallest convention

Oct 06 18:57:02 <UncleNasty> i have an interesting link my brother sent to me, but it's a wee bit low-brow for present company

Oct 06 18:57:46 <Lensman> LOL! Reminds me of Elaine Boosler's standup routine "Party of One". The next time the greeter at the restaurant asks "Party of one?", be ready with the silly hat, noisemaker and confetti so you can say, "Why yes, I *am* a party of one!"

Oct 06 18:58:13 <Hippy> Wow! My personal power animal is the Domestic Ferret

Oct 06 18:58:49 <Lensman> Mine is the Wooly Mammoth. (As opposed to the Polyester Mammoth, one supposes?)

Oct 06 18:59:19 <UncleNasty> uh huh

Oct 06 18:59:33 <UncleNasty> wtf is a Griffon Vulture, anyway?

Oct 06 18:59:48 <Lensman> Beats me.

Oct 06 18:59:52 <Hippy> Hmm. There are 0 Darren Rout's in the US. I can confirm this, as there is at least one outside it

Oct 06 19:02:29 <UncleNasty> this always makes me laugh, even though I'm a month late with it

Oct 06 19:02:30 <UncleNasty>

Oct 06 19:03:29 <Lensman> The odd thing is, my father (who was into geneology before the Internet existed) traced our family tree back to two brothers coming over from England in the mid-1800s. And indeed Google shows any number of Soobys in England. But no hits on "David Sooby" except here in the states. I therefore guess that Sooby is a fairly rare name even in England.

Oct 06 19:05:17 <UncleNasty> brb

Oct 06 19:05:33 * Hippy now just downloading the complete James Bond on audiobooks. Let's see whether my machine blows up

Oct 06 19:05:44 <Lensman> Arrrr! I think I sent a "Talk like a pirate day" post to the list.

Oct 06 19:06:44 <Lensman> Well, if your machine blows up, remember: The first time it's happenstance, the second time coincidence, but the third time, Hippy, it's enemy action.

Oct 06 19:09:42 <Hippy> Well remembered, Lens

Oct 06 19:10:04 <Lensman> :)

Oct 06 19:10:39 <Lensman> One of my favorite quotes, altho I'm sure I didn't paraphrase it exactly word-for-word.

Oct 06 19:16:47 <Hippy> Hmm. This torrent doesn't appear to be torrenting. . .

Oct 06 19:21:15 <UncleNasty> b'ack

Oct 06 19:25:14 <Hippy> I wish I knew more about this torrenting. Azureus is now downloading something called a 'Java runtime environment'

Oct 06 19:25:20 <UncleNasty> yep

Oct 06 19:25:26 <UncleNasty> it's a virtual machine update

Oct 06 19:25:36 <Hippy> Oh. Okay, then

Oct 06 19:25:38 <UncleNasty> windows is sadly lacking in updating third party apps

Oct 06 19:26:10 <Hippy> Ah, I see. I'm not running a high enough version of Java on my browser?

Oct 06 19:26:22 <UncleNasty> kinda

Oct 06 19:26:32 <UncleNasty> java is more than just for web browsers, tho

Oct 06 19:27:35 <Hippy> Well, whatever Java is, it can apparently now do whatever it does

Oct 06 19:27:42 <UncleNasty> lol

Oct 06 19:28:25 <Hippy> Okay. Now, Azureus has opened what appears to be some kind of media player

Oct 06 19:29:09 <UncleNasty> click on the 'advanced' button - top right, i think

Oct 06 19:32:05 <Hippy> Just spotted that. Stand by

Oct 06 19:32:42 <Hippy> Now, how does it know what I want to get?

Oct 06 19:33:18 <UncleNasty> open torrent files using azureus

Oct 06 19:33:29 <UncleNasty> or use the open option from the file menu to open the saved torrent file

Oct 06 19:33:40 <UncleNasty> azureus will ask you where you want it to save the torrent data

Oct 06 19:33:47 <UncleNasty> then it will sit & do its thing

Oct 06 19:33:56 <UncleNasty> wow

Oct 06 19:34:05 <Hippy> Okay. Let me just try that

Oct 06 19:34:13 <UncleNasty> thor just kicked iron man's ass

Oct 06 19:34:18 <UncleNasty> big style

Oct 06 19:35:36 <Hippy> Hmm. It doesn't appear to have a torrent file there, even though I know I downloaded one

Oct 06 19:35:58 <UncleNasty> remember that windows hides file extensions from you

Oct 06 19:36:30 <Hippy> Nope. My mistake. I was selecting where I wanted it to go

Oct 06 19:36:41 <Hippy> And yes, extensions are all sorted

Oct 06 19:37:44 <Hippy> Huh! It's doing it! Me hearties

Oct 06 19:38:19 <SeanS> giving pirate lessons, neil?

Oct 06 19:38:28 <UncleNasty> Yarr!

Oct 06 19:38:35 <UncleNasty> I mean, Who? Me?

Oct 06 19:38:39 <SeanS> lol

Oct 06 19:38:53 <SeanS> i use ktorrent

Oct 06 19:39:07 <UncleNasty>

Oct 06 19:39:20 <UncleNasty> i use transmission, but it's not available for 'doze

Oct 06 19:39:44 <SeanS> ktorrent is the default for the suse distro

Oct 06 19:39:58 <UncleNasty> did I send you a copy of SLED?

Oct 06 19:40:09 <Hippy> Not overly impressed at the download speed, but ah well. Now, how do I find torrents using Azureus?

Oct 06 19:40:19 <SeanS> dont think so

Oct 06 19:40:20 <UncleNasty> Hippy: It'll speed up

Oct 06 19:40:36 <UncleNasty> Hippy: Find em in your web browser

Oct 06 19:40:41 <Hippy> Oh, good. At the moment, it's says it'll take over a day to download

Oct 06 19:40:47 <SeanS> just like limewire, you are at the mercy of whoever is uplading to you

Oct 06 19:41:19 <UncleNasty> as you mesh with more clients you'll get faster

Oct 06 19:41:23 <Hippy> Ah, of course. I always thought it took 'chunks' of the file from various uploaders and sort of combineed them.

Oct 06 19:41:31 <Hippy> I shall browse forthwith

Oct 06 19:41:44 <UncleNasty> it does

Oct 06 19:42:02 <SeanS> when i pull from giganews it gives me a sustained download rate of just over a meg a second

Oct 06 19:45:50 <Hippy> Ah, I see. I also see that no-one has "1990" available

Oct 06 19:47:01 <SeanS> what are you looking for?

Oct 06 19:50:01 <Hippy> There's a UK TV show called "1990". Euan Ritchie found it, but the site he recommended no longer has it

Oct 06 19:50:34 <Hippy> That is, the show is called "1990" but was made in 1977. Starring Edward Woodward and some other people

Oct 06 19:51:07 <UncleNasty> is it on tvlinks?

Oct 06 19:51:28 <SeanS> a series?

Oct 06 19:51:37 <UncleNasty>

Oct 06 19:51:40 <Hippy> A series, yes

Oct 06 19:51:52 <SeanS> want me to check euan's ftp server?

Oct 06 19:54:27 <Hippy> Oh, can you do that? It's not on TV Links, I'm afraid

Oct 06 19:54:42 <Hippy> I was hoping he'd be on today so I could ask him something similar

Oct 06 19:56:13 <Hippy> Nearly 10:00AM. The shops will be open soon and I should go and get some milk

Oct 06 19:56:26 <SeanS> not on the ftp server.

Oct 06 19:56:42 <Hippy> Dang. . .

Oct 06 19:56:52 <UncleNasty> i gots to bail guys

Oct 06 19:56:57 <UncleNasty> adios!

Oct 06 19:57:02 <SeanS> yeah, he gives me access but he is VERY security conscious.

Oct 06 19:57:05 <SeanS> later neil

Oct 06 19:57:09 * UncleNasty has quit (Quit: adios!)

Oct 06 20:02:59 <Hippy> Well, a man of his piratical bent probably ought to be :)

Oct 06 20:03:37 <Hippy> No sign of "1990" but I suppose I can wait. If they have recently rebroadcast it, it seems likely it will come out on DVD in due course

Oct 06 20:04:23 <Hippy> Anyway, gentlemen, time for me to adjourn. Shopping to be done etc

Oct 06 20:04:55 <Hippy> Plus it's looking like a nice day outside and this damn rickets is beginning to be a problem, so it's time I saw some sun :)

Oct 06 20:05:05 <SeanS> kk

Oct 06 20:05:07 <Hippy> Disks in a few days, Lens

Oct 06 20:05:14 <Hippy> See you later, Sean

Oct 06 20:05:21 <Hippy> See you later, Lensman