Chat Log: November 1st 2008

Nov 01 11:58:15 * Lensman (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 01 12:52:54 * AgincourtDB (~AgincourtDB@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 01 12:53:20 <AgincourtDB> boo

Nov 01 12:58:02 * AgincourtDB is now known as Agin-afk

Nov 01 12:59:01 <Lensman> Hi Aggie!

Nov 01 13:01:55 <Agin-afk> hey

Nov 01 13:02:03 <Agin-afk> went downstairs to get some coffee

Nov 01 13:02:10 * Agin-afk is now known as AgincourtDB

Nov 01 13:03:30 <Lensman> I don't have you on my Niven chat "scorecard". Where do you live Aggie? (And is that the right nickname?)

Nov 01 13:03:37 <AgincourtDB> yup

Nov 01 13:03:40 <AgincourtDB> Gaithersburg MD

Nov 01 13:03:55 <Lensman> East coast, okay.

Nov 01 13:04:12 <Lensman> You said "coffee", I thought maybe it was morning where you live.

Nov 01 13:04:22 <AgincourtDB> no I just need coffee all day long hehe

Nov 01 13:04:43 <Lensman> I forgot to send out the Niven chat reminder yesterday, we may have some people who forgot about the chat today.

Nov 01 13:05:03 <AgincourtDB> I usually roll in after everyone's gone or afk

Nov 01 13:05:10 <AgincourtDB> when I manage to roll in at all

Nov 01 13:05:55 <Lensman> Any good news in your life you want to share?

Nov 01 13:07:31 <AgincourtDB> I just released my second CD

Nov 01 13:07:48 <AgincourtDB>

Nov 01 13:08:15 <AgincourtDB> doing nanowrimo again this month

Nov 01 13:08:48 <AgincourtDB> Playing a run of Peter Pan starting in a week, through the first week of January

Nov 01 13:08:52 <AgincourtDB> that's about it for me

Nov 01 13:08:53 <AgincourtDB> hehe

Nov 01 13:09:10 <Lensman> You're a busy man!

Nov 01 13:09:21 <Lensman> What's your role in PP?

Nov 01 13:09:26 <AgincourtDB> busier than I usually am, that's for sure

Nov 01 13:09:34 <AgincourtDB> hehe my role is... pit trombonist

Nov 01 13:09:44 <Lensman> O I C

Nov 01 13:09:59 <Lensman> So what instrument(s) do you play on that CD?

Nov 01 13:10:40 <AgincourtDB> it's mostly programmed software synthesizers

Nov 01 13:10:43 <AgincourtDB> MIDI controlled

Nov 01 13:10:48 <AgincourtDB> I do play some keyboards

Nov 01 13:10:59 <Lensman> I can't parse "nanowrimo". What means it?

Nov 01 13:11:31 <AgincourtDB> National Novel Writing Month

Nov 01 13:11:41 <AgincourtDB> you have to write a 50k word novel entirely in November

Nov 01 13:13:12 <Lensman> "Programmed software synthesizers". So everything from composition to spitting out the bits that go onto the CD all occurs within the computer? No, you said you do play some keyboards. So you've got your electronic piano hooked up to your computer and record the music as digital data?

Nov 01 13:14:02 <AgincourtDB> the keyboard is a MIDI controller, no sounds of it's own: MIDI is recorded into the computer, and that drives the software synthesizers

Nov 01 13:14:16 <AgincourtDB> MIDI = Musical Instrument Digital Interface

Nov 01 13:14:27 <AgincourtDB> a very simple language for computers to talk music to each other

Nov 01 13:14:36 <Lensman> Lessee... if a paperback page averages 300 pages, 50k is about 167 pages... is that right?

Nov 01 13:15:03 <AgincourtDB> yeah it depends on the density per page

Nov 01 13:15:22 <AgincourtDB> I'm trying to use a font and size that will resemble the paperbacks I have

Nov 01 13:15:31 <AgincourtDB> it should be a little more than that

Nov 01 13:16:03 <AgincourtDB> SF mass market should be fewer words per page than, say Penguin Classics hehe

Nov 01 13:16:05 <Lensman> I presume when you're playing the keyboard that you hear the music "live" thru the computer speakers? I'd hate to try to play without being able to hear what I was playing! I guess Beethovan was that good, but personally I need feedback.

Nov 01 13:16:11 <AgincourtDB> oh yeah

Nov 01 13:17:58 <AgincourtDB> but since it's recorded as MIDI it can be edited as information right up until the moment you 'bounce' the song out to audio

Nov 01 13:18:21 <AgincourtDB> which I usually do at the very end since I have a pretty powerful computer

Nov 01 13:18:23 <Lensman> I'm not sure I can lay my hands on a Penguin Classics at the moment. Do those use an especially small font?

Nov 01 13:18:46 <Lensman> Sure, I realize you can edit it.

Nov 01 13:19:25 <AgincourtDB> I think the only one I have around right now is The Odyssey

Nov 01 13:19:44 <AgincourtDB> and it's considerably denser (smaller font) than A Gift From Earth, which is the Niven I'm re-reading right now

Nov 01 13:20:43 <Lensman> I have a few of the Sharpe series, trade paperbacks; and a 2-volume set of Robert Graves' /The Greek Myths/. Not sure if I have any other Penguin books.

Nov 01 13:20:58 <AgincourtDB> or maybe not

Nov 01 13:21:22 <AgincourtDB> odd

Nov 01 13:22:05 <AgincourtDB> aGFE actually has 38 lines per page but the Odyssey has 36

Nov 01 13:22:16 <AgincourtDB> interesting

Nov 01 13:22:16 <Lensman> Hmmmm /The Greek Myths/ does use a very small font. I guess that's what you mean.

Nov 01 13:22:42 <AgincourtDB> yeah some do but I guess it's not as universal as I thought

Nov 01 13:22:50 <Lensman> 39 lines per page!

Nov 01 13:23:12 <Lensman> Oh, I also have a 2-volume /Le Mort d'Arthur/.

Nov 01 13:23:33 <AgincourtDB> but anyway, yeah, Nanowrimo gets you to 50k, but you're writing first draft, so I'm sure a lot of people add in editing

Nov 01 13:23:48 <AgincourtDB> and of course, you don't have to *stop* at 50k

Nov 01 13:23:49 <AgincourtDB> hehe

Nov 01 13:24:59 <Lensman> So this Nanowrimo thing, do you submit (supposedly) finished stories, or is it a writers' workshop thing?

Nov 01 13:25:28 <AgincourtDB> well you write until you're done. It's more of a motivational thing than a workshop per se

Nov 01 13:25:40 <AgincourtDB> though I'm sure people do workshop their nano novels when they're done

Nov 01 13:26:15 <AgincourtDB> at the end of the month, you upload your novel as a .txt file (you can encrypt it) to get a verified final wordcount

Nov 01 13:26:21 <AgincourtDB> and if it's more than 50k you 'win'

Nov 01 13:26:31 <AgincourtDB> there's a certificate :-)

Nov 01 13:27:01 <Lensman> Oh, I see I confused things upstream... I meant "If a paperback averages 300 words per page..."

Nov 01 13:27:51 <Lensman> I'm not sure that's the *actual* average, but I think it's close for a typical font size.

Nov 01 13:27:57 <AgincourtDB> probably

Nov 01 13:28:12 <AgincourtDB> I understood what you meant

Nov 01 13:28:26 <Lensman> You speak typo too! :)

Nov 01 13:28:36 * Shaggy (~Shaggy@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 01 13:28:38 <AgincourtDB> hehe as much as I use the internet I kind of have to

Nov 01 13:28:42 <AgincourtDB> hi shaggy

Nov 01 13:28:46 <Lensman> Hi Shaggy!

Nov 01 13:29:53 <Shaggy> Hi everyone! i am working on a school project based on the Inferno by Larry Niven can anyone help me?

Nov 01 13:29:59 <Lensman> We just got a 4-in-1 computer peripheral yesterday, so have been playing with that. Printed out a picture of our dog on photo paper; I was astonished at the quality! It was only about $135.

Nov 01 13:30:26 <Lensman> Well I'll help if I can, but I've never been able to plow thru Dante's work.

Nov 01 13:30:40 <AgincourtDB> ooh school project!

Nov 01 13:30:49 <Lensman> Anyway, how can we help?

Nov 01 13:30:55 <Shaggy> thats ok the project is on the Inferno by Larry NIven and Jerry Pournelle

Nov 01 13:31:00 <AgincourtDB> stick around long enough I'm sure someone will be able to answer

Nov 01 13:31:10 <Lensman> I've read it a couple of times, why?

Nov 01 13:31:16 <Shaggy> i am looking around for the reason why they re wrote dantes inferno

Nov 01 13:31:20 <Shaggy> can anyone answer that?

Nov 01 13:31:32 <AgincourtDB> well, I wouldn't say they rewrote iut

Nov 01 13:31:45 <AgincourtDB> I would say they took Dante as inspiration for a derivative work

Nov 01 13:32:01 <Lensman> Well, for one thing Niven considers Dante's /Divine Comedy/ to be "the first hard SF novel". I don't agree, but that's his expressed opinion.

Nov 01 13:32:24 <Shaggy> i can see where he is comming from

Nov 01 13:32:34 <AgincourtDB> because the bible was the science of the day

Nov 01 13:32:36 <Lensman> Is the sequel /Escape from Hell/ out yet?

Nov 01 13:32:37 <Shaggy> but was dante himself their inspiration to write inferno?

Nov 01 13:32:39 <AgincourtDB> nope

Nov 01 13:32:43 <AgincourtDB> Jan or Feb I think

Nov 01 13:33:12 <AgincourtDB> was Dante the man, or Dante's Inferno the book

Nov 01 13:33:25 <Lensman> Oh certainly Dante was their inspiration. Their book follows Dante's model very closely, altho they add a few new areas for "new sins".

Nov 01 13:33:28 <Shaggy> dante was the author and main character in his work

Nov 01 13:33:39 <Lensman> Dante was the author.

Nov 01 13:33:51 <AgincourtDB> I've never read the original

Nov 01 13:33:53 <Shaggy> since this book was written in 1976 it is hard to find research on it

Nov 01 13:33:57 <Shaggy> anyoine suggestions?

Nov 01 13:34:18 <AgincourtDB> hmmm

Nov 01 13:34:57 <Lensman> What do you mean "hard to find research on it"?

Nov 01 13:35:09 <Lensman> You mean it's not heavily discussed on the Internet?

Nov 01 13:35:28 <Shaggy> because niven and pournelle have wrote quite a few books together it is hard to find information on just the inferno

Nov 01 13:36:23 <AgincourtDB> I found a paper but I don't know if it'll help

Nov 01 13:36:34 <AgincourtDB>

Nov 01 13:36:39 <Shaggy> is it the one by carpenter??

Nov 01 13:37:43 <Lensman> Ohhh good find Aggie!

Nov 01 13:37:58 <Lensman> Mary Pat Campbell.

Nov 01 13:38:06 <AgincourtDB> there's also a blurb before the excerpt in Playgrounds of the Mind

Nov 01 13:38:17 <Shaggy> thank you but i found that article and printed it up a few days ago

Nov 01 13:38:32 <Shaggy> what is the url to that?

Nov 01 13:38:37 <AgincourtDB> yeah I figured, it was the first thing to come up

Nov 01 13:38:40 <AgincourtDB>,M1

Nov 01 13:38:47 <AgincourtDB> page 22

Nov 01 13:38:59 <Lensman> Carpenter is the protagonist in Niven & Pournelle's /Inferno/. Called "Carpentier" thru most of the book but near the end he reveals his actual name is Carpenter.

Nov 01 13:40:40 <Shaggy> yes i know that he changed his name because it sounded cooler right?

Nov 01 13:40:52 <Lensman> Page 16 in my hardcover. Shaggy, do you have a copy of /Playgrounds of the Mind/?

Nov 01 13:40:58 <Lensman> Shaggy: right

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Nov 1 16:13:44 2008

Nov 01 16:13:44 * Now talking on #knownspace

Nov 01 16:13:44 * Topic for #knownspace is: New Topic

Nov 01 16:13:44 * Topic for #knownspace set by Jim at Sat Nov 1 14:34:19 2008

Nov 01 16:13:52 <SeanS> Hola

Nov 01 16:13:59 <Jim> SeanS!!!

Nov 01 16:14:01 <Lensman> Well no, probably you don't because you've been using this chatroom for a long time.

Nov 01 16:14:11 <SeanS> prepping for a halloween party so i will be in and out.

Nov 01 16:14:15 <Lensman> Welcome oh Lord of the Server!

Nov 01 16:14:16 <Dan> I think that you're using the java client forom the website. Evidently it recognises mIRC commands as well as having special ones of its own.

Nov 01 16:14:29 <Dan> Hiya, Sean.

Nov 01 16:14:52 <SeanS> julie summons me

Nov 01 16:15:07 <Lensman> What spell does she use?

Nov 01 16:15:19 <Dan> Sean, I got a shipping notice about the new hard drives. They'll be delivered Monday, on my birthday.

Nov 01 16:16:15 <Lensman> Larry is it okay if I inquire into your health? Or is that something you'd rather not talk about?

Nov 01 16:17:26 <Larry> My health has been fine barriing night-before-last's food poisoning. I'm over it now, if a bit feeble. It's always okay to ask.

Nov 01 16:17:57 <Lensman> I know you were having persistant problems with one or both of your eyes. Did that ever clear up?

Nov 01 16:19:36 <Larry> My eyes haven't gotten any worse. I can still drive. I did get one cataracted lens replaced. My doctors think I'll eventually need cornea transplant. New techniques say I'll be one-eyed for a month.

Nov 01 16:20:58 <Dan> Keep us posted. We'll send out prayers and good vibes.

Nov 01 16:21:26 * Hippy (~captlychee@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 01 16:22:05 <Hippy> Good afternoon, everyone

Nov 01 16:22:10 <Larry> Thank you all. Nothing is urgent yet.

Nov 01 16:22:29 <Lensman> As long as the conversation seems to be lagging, I'll ask Larry another question: Have you considered doing a colletion of your uncollected or rarely-collected stories? That list has grown quite long, I think it would easily fill out a book. Of course I don't know what will sell to the mass market, but personally I'd much rather see a collection of your more obscure works which have never been reprinted, or have appeared only in limited edition work

Nov 01 16:23:00 <Lensman> Hi Hippy! Speaking of people with eye problems... how are yours?

Nov 01 16:23:11 <Jim> Hippy!!!

Nov 01 16:23:27 <Hippy> Yes, I'm sorry I'm late. Larry, is the graft not going well???

Nov 01 16:23:28 <Larry> Hi, hippy. Hi, Sean.

Nov 01 16:23:47 <Hippy> Howdy, Jim, Lens

Nov 01 16:24:02 <Lensman> I mean, I'd rather see a collection of "Niven Rarities" than /Scatterbrain II/.

Nov 01 16:24:13 <Hippy> It's a cold morning here and it was difficult to get out of bed :)

Nov 01 16:24:27 <Larry> My short stories that haven't been reprinted, generally aren't worth it. They aren't all winners.

Nov 01 16:25:33 <Larry> As for Scatterbrain 2...buying it is optional. The list is probably caught up on my stories, mostly.

Nov 01 16:25:36 <Hippy> We're fans, you can sell us anything

Nov 01 16:25:59 <Hippy> As they have found out with Tolkien

Nov 01 16:26:05 <Larry> The Scatterbrains should have been one book. I turned in a lot more material.

Nov 01 16:26:21 * vilstef (~vilstef@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 01 16:26:28 <Larry> I like to deliver your money's worth.

Nov 01 16:26:44 <vilstef> Hi all!

Nov 01 16:26:53 * SolBelter (~SolBelter@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 01 16:27:34 <SolBelter> hi Lensman, Larry

Nov 01 16:28:00 <Hippy> Lens, as to your question, the graft is going well. But it's early days yet, I'm just past the six month mark

Nov 01 16:28:17 <SolBelter> Hippy, good luck!

Nov 01 16:28:31 <Larry> Hippy, what did they graft? Cornea?

Nov 01 16:28:36 <Hippy> Thanks, Sol

Nov 01 16:28:49 <vilstef> Seconded on the good luck wish.

Nov 01 16:28:57 <Hippy> Cornea, indeed. That's why I was interested in yours. Have you had both done?

Nov 01 16:29:47 <Larry> Hippy, that's still in my future, and not urgent (I think.) Good luck with that.

Nov 01 16:29:48 <SolBelter> <==lucked out in 2003, had cataracts removed uneventfully

Nov 01 16:29:55 <Hippy> Thanks for the good luck wishes. The eye is in a lot better condition now than previous grafts, so fingers crossed etc it will take this time

Nov 01 16:30:42 <SolBelter> Hippy, no criticism, but use an autodoc next time ....

Nov 01 16:30:51 <SolBelter> :)

Nov 01 16:30:56 <Hippy> Larry, I don't want you to have to repeat everything you've just said before I arrived, so I'll pick it up from the chat log

Nov 01 16:31:20 <Hippy> If I had an autodoc, there would be a lot more things I would fix. This hairline, for example. . .

Nov 01 16:31:54 <Hippy> Lose a few pounds, blue dye job, Naomi Horne's legs. . .

Nov 01 16:32:16 <SolBelter> <==me & Luke Garner, spines wearing what i'd use a 'doc for

Nov 01 16:32:36 <Dan> YAY!!! Another seam finished on the leatherwork. I might get this belt done before bedtime tonight. Oops! Sorry for the digression.

Nov 01 16:33:19 <Hippy> Not at all. If there's one thing you learn about with grafts, it's stitching :)

Nov 01 16:33:55 <SolBelter> LeatherBelter? A new star system to me...

Nov 01 16:34:26 <Dan> LOL!

Nov 01 16:35:00 <SolBelter> Hippy, u have what really matters, a sense of humor about this primitve 20th, er, 21st century medicine

Nov 01 16:35:11 <Lensman> Actually after buying "Unfinished Stories" I have refused to buy anything else edited by Christopher Tolkien.

Nov 01 16:35:34 <Hippy> You have to have, or you'd go nuts (and there goes your birthright)

Nov 01 16:35:49 * SolBelter smiles at Hippy

Nov 01 16:35:50 <Hippy> Now why's that, Lens?

Nov 01 16:36:14 <Lensman> Well the biggest news for KS fans is that Larry says he'll be doing FIVE books with Ed Lerner!

Nov 01 16:37:13 <Lensman> LeatherBelter? Oh is this a designation for a Belter fetish group? :D

Nov 01 16:37:37 <SolBelter> five!?!?! good

Nov 01 16:37:48 <vilstef> Depends on who you're belting. . .

Nov 01 16:37:50 <Lensman> Hippy? Why is what?

Nov 01 16:37:50 <Dan> Or is it the newest member of the New Village People?

Nov 01 16:37:55 <Jim> Lensman, is that related to the phenomenon of furries?

Nov 01 16:38:08 <Lensman> Jim: LOL could be.

Nov 01 16:38:10 <Hippy> Why do you not like books edited Christopher Tolkien?

Nov 01 16:38:19 <SolBelter> Lens, Hippy was asking u bout tolkine

Nov 01 16:38:28 <SolBelter> why no more by his kid

Nov 01 16:38:49 <Lensman> Re warmed-over Tolkien: Because I prefer their be some ORIGINAL content in books I read!

Nov 01 16:38:58 <Lensman> THERE be, sorry.

Nov 01 16:39:07 <Hippy> Ooh, and for the curious or the ophthalmic ghouls out there, I put pictures of my eye up at:

Nov 01 16:39:20 <Dan> Lens, I bet you avoid the "Dune" sequels and prequels for the same reason.

Nov 01 16:39:21 <SolBelter> "no new ideas were harmed in creating this work!"

Nov 01 16:40:02 <Larry> :) for Solbelter.

Nov 01 16:40:03 <Hippy> So, Lens, you didn't get N-Space or Playgrounds of the Mind?

Nov 01 16:40:35 <Larry> There is new material in those books.

Nov 01 16:40:36 <Lensman> LOL! "We wish to assure all readers your thinking will absolutely not be stretched in any direction by this work. Rest assured you will find everything here familiar." ;-)

Nov 01 16:41:18 <Hippy> Signed, Tom Clancy

Nov 01 16:41:29 * Dan laughs!

Nov 01 16:42:37 <SolBelter> Lens, i used to have fake warning signs like all the appliance and tool labels, in my house, including a bookshelf warning "Danger! May stretch your imaination"

Nov 01 16:42:51 <Lensman> I certainly DID get N-Space and Playgrounds of the Mind. But Scatterbrain, after looking at the table of contents I didn't bother until I was researching for my Known Space Concordance. Scatterbrain has notes on the Man-Kzin Wars... and to be fair, does have a couple of new short stories. But... well, over all I'd much rather have "Niven Obscurities" than /Scatterbrain/.

Nov 01 16:43:38 <SolBelter> My gripe is with Draco Tvern

Nov 01 16:43:42 <Lensman> Clancy LOL! Well, his last few books certainly. I don't think I'll read another new Clancy, fortunately there are still a few older ones I haven't read.

Nov 01 16:44:13 <Hippy> Well, I've got all of the Tolkien 'add-ons' and would love to see a similar Niven thing. All the notes, the scratchings-out, the half-baked and overcooked ideas etc

Nov 01 16:44:28 <SolBelter> a perfectly good 200 page book, with extra 2 or 3 page while filler space to make it 300 pages [no complaints about the good stories themsleves]

Nov 01 16:44:47 <SolBelter> in between each story

Nov 01 16:46:02 <SolBelter> Most people would have bought Draco Tavern anyway, so i regard it as wanton slaughter of of extra tress

Nov 01 16:46:13 <Larry> I'm about to vanish for ten minutes.

Nov 01 16:46:30 <SolBelter> so mana magic is real!

Nov 01 16:46:43 <SolBelter> re vanishing

Nov 01 16:47:18 <Hippy> There's none here, but there's lots of gold in the soil, now sadly all drained of mana by the Atlanteans

Nov 01 16:47:55 <Lensman> When I was growing up, 250-300 page books were the *norm*. I don't find /Draco Tavern/ to be too short to qualify for a book, altho perhaps $24.95 for a book of stories most of which have been reprinted multiple times is perhaps more than the average fan wants to spend. But you *can* wait for the paperback.

Nov 01 16:48:25 <Dan> I'm going to go AFK for a few minutes, myself. I need to drive up to the corner store...

Nov 01 16:48:36 * Dan is now known as Dan_Away

Nov 01 16:48:41 <SolBelter> Lensman, only one chatlog published since May - could u email me today's please, asfter?

Nov 01 16:48:50 <Jim> Lensman, when did you graduate from high school?

Nov 01 16:49:20 <Hippy> The thing about the books is they let us residents of the antipodes get hold of the stories. The magazines are harder to track down

Nov 01 16:50:04 <Lensman> 1973. SB, I will look to see, but I've never retreived a chat log and am not sure I can do it.

Nov 01 16:50:06 <Hippy> Put me down for a chatlog, please, Sean. I could kick myself for missing the eye chat

Nov 01 16:50:32 <Lensman> I'm still waiting for a chat log from *last* month! (Are you there, Sean?)

Nov 01 16:50:57 <Hippy> He's probably out shooting something for Thanksgiving

Nov 01 16:51:18 <Lensman> I did finally figure out how to turn on the logging function on mIRC, but have never retreived a log. Can anyone tell me how to do that?

Nov 01 16:52:40 <Hippy> It's just a text file called <date><tme> (where these are variables) .log It shuld be located in C:\Program Files\mIRC\logs (assuming Program Files is where you installed mIRC)

Nov 01 16:53:19 <SolBelter> thx hippy and Lens, i'm clueless reirc

Nov 01 16:53:21 <Lensman> SB Oh! Brain failure! Of course, all I have to do is copy-and-paste into an e-mail. Sure, I'll do that.

Nov 01 16:53:22 <Hippy> Since it's a text file you can open it in WordPad, Notepad, or Word or whatever. Couldn't tell you how to post it to the site, though

Nov 01 16:53:54 <SolBelter> and trying to save from the screen in the past jujst gave me screen text, not previous text, sigh

Nov 01 16:54:00 <Hippy> Lens: best to insert the file as an attachment. It would make a huge document to read in an email

Nov 01 16:54:56 <SolBelter> good- i was unable to get a complete copy in one step that i could paste

Nov 01 16:55:50 <Lensman> I see a chat log on my 'puter from April and June of 2008. None other. I have no idea why those two are there but none other. I've only missed one chat-- last month's-- in several months.

Nov 01 16:55:59 * Hippy AFK briefly for eyedrops (one of the perks, if you like, of a cornea graft)

Nov 01 16:57:46 <Lensman> Hippy: To paraphrase Venkman from "Ghostbusters": Pretend for one moment that I know nothing about file sizes, and explain to me why an ASCII file would be smaller than pasting the same into an e-mail?

Nov 01 16:58:26 <SolBelter> So ZLens has the June 2008 one, good , so only five to find including today's

Nov 01 16:58:44 <Jim> Lensman, most e-mail servers have maximum lengths for messages that is rather more restrictive than the attachment size limit.

Nov 01 16:58:56 <SolBelter> Jujly, Aug, Sept, Oct

Nov 01 16:59:08 <SolBelter> ah, good to know Jim

Nov 01 17:00:03 * Larry returns.

Nov 01 17:00:46 <Larry> I'm proud of the Draco Tavern. You'll miss some stories if you skip it, and you'll miss the overview.

Nov 01 17:00:48 <Lensman> Jim: Okay, good tip. A Windoz Notepad file it is, then.

Nov 01 17:00:50 <Hippy> Thanks, Jim. I couldn't've said that better, and probably would've done much worse

Nov 01 17:01:40 <Jim> I liked Draco Tavern.

Nov 01 17:01:45 <SolBelter> Underetand, i had no complaint with Draco, since it got all the stories together, icluding hard to find ones

Nov 01 17:02:19 <SolBelter> it was just the padding in a way books aren't, usually, with the blank space

Nov 01 17:02:36 <SolBelter> it's as tho the publisher didnt trust Larry's audience

Nov 01 17:02:37 <Lensman> I'm happy with my copy of /Draco Tavern/. Sure, most of the stories have been printed multiple times, but I'm lazy... I don't remember what books they're in. This makes them easy to find, and it has a nice cover plus as Larry sez the intro. The only very minor complaint I have is that I think that convention play should have been included as a sort of appendix, rather than smack in the middle of two canonical stories.

Nov 01 17:03:00 <SolBelter> one hundred extra white pages

Nov 01 17:03:30 <SolBelter> I knowe short stories collections sell poorly compared to novels, tho

Nov 01 17:03:36 * Hippy now frantically scans the bookshelves to find 'Draco Tavern'

Nov 01 17:04:07 <Lensman> 100 extra white pages? Surely that was a typo?

Nov 01 17:04:15 <SolBelter> no

Nov 01 17:04:28 * NickE (~NickE@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 01 17:04:38 <SolBelter> between each story is 2 extra pages

Nov 01 17:04:41 <NickE> Evenin all

Nov 01 17:04:52 <Hippy> Morning, Nick

Nov 01 17:04:53 <SolBelter> hi NickE

Nov 01 17:05:55 <NickE> Hmm, the Java link off teh KS site didn't want to work for me. Had to come in via Euans one for a change

Nov 01 17:06:25 <NickE> Hi Larry!

Nov 01 17:06:39 * dmac44 (~dmac44@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 01 17:06:43 <NickE> (bit slow today)

Nov 01 17:07:05 <SolBelter> Lens, so 29 stories,[and asll in one sport, reread, makes them more enjoyable] , so extra sixty pages, then , not 100

Nov 01 17:07:21 <Larry> Hi, Nick

Nov 01 17:07:22 <SolBelter> all in one spot^

Nov 01 17:07:49 <SolBelter> it was a book designer's decision

Nov 01 17:07:57 <Lensman> I get 67 extra pages, not counting blank flyleaves, which *every* good hardback has.

Nov 01 17:07:58 <NickE> So, what we all talking about?

Nov 01 17:08:12 <SolBelter> nod to lens yep

Nov 01 17:08:36 <Lensman> But okay, fair cop, that *is* a lot of unnecessary pages.

Nov 01 17:08:47 <Hippy> 'Draco Tavern' is padded out with blank pages, apparently, Nick

Nov 01 17:09:07 * Dan_Away is now known as Dan

Nov 01 17:09:15 <Dan> Back from the store.

Nov 01 17:09:22 <NickE> Oh? The paperback? I don't recall the hardback being so

Nov 01 17:09:29 <NickE> Hi Dan

Nov 01 17:09:33 * Hippy AFK for a cup of tea and to check his copy of Draco Tavern

Nov 01 17:09:36 <Dan> Hiya.

Nov 01 17:10:11 <Lensman> I don't have the paperback, can't give you a count on that.

Nov 01 17:10:33 <dmac44> Hi guys, I'm new here, what's up?

Nov 01 17:10:38 <SolBelter> what the publishers did was last page of story, then blank one, thentitle page with nly a title, then blan page, then story starts on a right-hand page, so i count that as 3 extra pages

Nov 01 17:10:50 <NickE> Well, the HB has seperate title pages for each story, blank on the back

Nov 01 17:11:05 * SolBelter nods to nickE

Nov 01 17:11:14 <Lensman> SB But sometimes it's only two pages, where the story ends on an even-numbered page.

Nov 01 17:11:26 <SolBelter> and most books dont do that re extra title page

Nov 01 17:11:46 <Dan> Not a lot, dmac44. Just dissing various edits of Larry's books while Larry is here marking us off his x-mas card list. LOL!

Nov 01 17:11:55 <SolBelter> i thot it was unnecessary *grump* :)

Nov 01 17:12:13 <NickE> It's obviously a book design thing so teh titles all appear to the right

Nov 01 17:12:18 <dmac44> Larry has a Xmas card list? :)

Nov 01 17:12:35 <SolBelter> as i say, i'm not at odds with the book designer, not editor or Larry

Nov 01 17:12:43 <Lensman> True, most books don't put a half-title page before every short story. But many hardcovers *do* start stories only on odd-numbered pages. So essentially it's 2 extra pages per story, and there are quite a few stories since most of them are very short.

Nov 01 17:12:52 <Larry> I just looked. One page, both sides, holds only the title. You count that as 2, okay.

Nov 01 17:13:00 <SolBelter> am at odds^

Nov 01 17:13:00 <NickE> Can't say as I noticed when reading. tend to concentrate on teh pages with print! :-)

Nov 01 17:13:24 <Dan> I never count the pages, I'm too busy turning them!

Nov 01 17:13:32 <Lensman> I confess it didn't stick in my mind. *Shrug* As I said, I'm happy with the book.

Nov 01 17:13:32 <NickE> Exactly

Nov 01 17:13:39 <NickE> Oh indded

Nov 01 17:13:45 <NickE> indeed even

Nov 01 17:14:02 <SolBelter> it was inelegant to increase mass of book, was my thot

Nov 01 17:14:14 <NickE> Was great to have them all in one place with teh newer stuff as well

Nov 01 17:14:17 <SolBelter> the baggage charges to Luna...

Nov 01 17:14:21 <Dan> I was so embarrassed to hand Larry and Jerry my paperback of "Mote" to sign. The thing was about to fall apart!

Nov 01 17:14:21 <NickE> Hehe

Nov 01 17:14:37 <SolBelter> NickE, sure was! I reread them all

Nov 01 17:14:45 <NickE> Oh don't am on my 3rd copy of Ringworld

Nov 01 17:15:14 <SolBelter> Dan dont be-u showed u loved the book

Nov 01 17:15:26 <Lensman> Besides, Larry corrected all the spellings of "Chirpsithira" to "Chirpsithra". Or whatever it was. Surely that's worth buying the stories again? <Lensman ducks>

Nov 01 17:15:27 <Dan> That's another one that is working its way towards living in a zip-lock baggie.

Nov 01 17:15:36 <NickE> Still have my older one but it's held together with scotch tape :-)

Nov 01 17:15:48 <NickE> Won't part with it!

Nov 01 17:17:00 <dmac44> does that zip-lock baggie thing really work?

Nov 01 17:17:06 <SolBelter> hey, re Drco Tvern, is Mt Forel an injoke? Mt four-L?

Nov 01 17:17:10 <vilstef> I mentioned on the list I was lucky enough to get a 1st of Ringworld at a used book store this year-for under a buck!

Nov 01 17:17:19 <Hippy> My 'Neutron Star' has seen better days, I must say

Nov 01 17:17:20 <Dan> We have rolls of scotch tape at work that are 2.5 inches wide. Half my library has that holding the covers onto the books.

Nov 01 17:17:21 <Lensman> I've resigned myself to the fact that every book I index for my Concordance will result in the destruction of a copy. I am *not* happy with having my Sternbach cover /Neutron Star/ disintegrate! I'll have to replace that. At least with /Ringworld/, a "free" copy came with the computer game, so I'm using that. Small loss, I have another copy with the same cover.

Nov 01 17:17:44 <Dan> dmac44, it keeps me from losing any of the pages.

Nov 01 17:17:56 <Lensman> SB Ah, you refer to the infamous Mt. Forel!

Nov 01 17:18:16 <dmac44> does it help preserve the pages?

Nov 01 17:18:26 <SolBelter> i'm lazy-never checked to see if real or made-up

Nov 01 17:19:33 <Larry> I got Mt. Forel wrong. The real Mt. Forel is in Greenland.

Nov 01 17:19:38 <Lensman> Larry thought Mt. Forel was in Siberia. Turns out it's in Greenland. Oops... well, we tried to convince him that there are plenty of places in Siberia that *could* have a mountain named "Forel", but Larry says he's planning on a Draco Tavern novel, and he'll retcon the tavern to be in Greenland instead of Siberia.

Nov 01 17:20:36 <Lensman> I mean, plenty of mountains in Siberia that in an alternate world could have that name.

Nov 01 17:20:46 <Dan> Theoretically, being in a baggie ought to keep dust and cigarette smoke from damaging the pages any more than ordinary use would do. But I just put a book in a baggie when the spine will no longer hold the pages together. My copy of "Ringworld" dates from my college years in the late '70s and has been read a couple of hundred times since then.

Nov 01 17:20:54 <SolBelter> aha! i just goog'ed - greenland indeed-thx

Nov 01 17:20:57 <Hippy> So why Mt Forel in particular, as opposed to, say, Mt Kosciusko?

Nov 01 17:21:05 * Larry says lunchtime.

Nov 01 17:21:14 <NickE> enjoy

Nov 01 17:21:29 <Dan> Coming back after lunch, Larry?

Nov 01 17:21:44 <SolBelter> "consume the nourishment!"

Nov 01 17:22:54 * Dan opens a nourishing beer. "Ahhhh! Liquid bread!"

Nov 01 17:23:25 * Hippy would join Dan, but it's a bit early on Sunday for someone who doesn't sleep in a gutter :)

Nov 01 17:23:33 <vilstef> I just ate a porkchop. MMM! Porkchop!

Nov 01 17:23:57 <Dan> 5:20 PM on Saturday here in Georgia.

Nov 01 17:24:06 <Lensman> Chicken pot pie with cornbread crust. MMM!

Nov 01 17:24:17 <vilstef> The sun's over the yardarm somewhere! Plaint of ex-sailors who drink in the morning hours.

Nov 01 17:24:32 <Lensman> My computer sez 4:18 but perhaps it's retarded. :D

Nov 01 17:25:04 <vilstef> Mine agrees with the chat log & says 1621

Nov 01 17:25:10 <SolBelter> grrr...*rumble* from stomach, daylight savings on sunday most places

Nov 01 17:25:39 <vilstef> I get to reset clocks at work & at home.

Nov 01 17:25:40 <Hippy> 8:20AM Sunday in Ballarat

Nov 01 17:25:57 <SolBelter> 4:22 Boston

Nov 01 17:26:03 <Lensman> Fall back tomorrow? Thanx for the reminder.

Nov 01 17:26:34 <Dan> Indeed! Thanks, I'll have to spend half an hour resetting all the clocks in the house.

Nov 01 17:26:47 <NickE> Had ours go back last week

Nov 01 17:26:54 <NickE> Good ol GMT :-)

Nov 01 17:27:15 <Hippy> And ours forward the first week of October. God, I hate daylight saving!

Nov 01 17:27:34 <Dan> Why can't they just change the time by half an hour and *leave it alone?!*

Nov 01 17:27:37 <Lensman> Sounds like my grandparents' home, with their collection of clocks. Me, I've got my 'puter and my bedside clock. Everything else (VCRs etc) should reset themselves.

Nov 01 17:27:40 <NickE> Forward? How's that work?

Nov 01 17:28:04 <NickE> Spring forward, Fall back isn't it?

Nov 01 17:28:04 <vilstef> As Kurt Vonnegut called it in one of his books, Woodrow Wilson Time.

Nov 01 17:28:07 <Hippy> Well, it's Spring here, south of the Equator

Nov 01 17:28:16 <Lensman> Hippy is south of the equator.

Nov 01 17:28:22 <NickE> Oh, yeah. D'oh!

Nov 01 17:28:32 <NickE> what a twat

Nov 01 17:28:35 <NickE> :-)

Nov 01 17:28:47 <Hippy> And quite a pleasant Spring day is coming up, if you can judge by how it is outside

Nov 01 17:29:02 <NickE> lucky bugger. Is orrible here

Nov 01 17:29:14 <vilstef> A pleasant fall day in the midwest of the USA

Nov 01 17:29:23 <Lensman> Indeed.

Nov 01 17:29:24 <Hippy> Of course, when you're retired, time is meaningless, so I could, I suppose, just set the clocks to any time I liked

Nov 01 17:29:45 <Hippy> But it's Melbourne Cup Day on Tuesday and I don't want to miss any of the races

Nov 01 17:30:03 <Dan> Nice Fall day here. Summer's blazing heat ended about two weeks ago and Winter's freezing chill should kick in about two weeks from now.

Nov 01 17:30:10 <Lensman> Keep Martian time and confuse everyone!

Nov 01 17:30:31 <Hippy> Too many hours in the day, then

Nov 01 17:30:50 <SolBelter> ok all, off to rl-i'm head of operations at the International Spaceflight Museum in Second Life, fundraising efforts :)

Nov 01 17:30:56 <SolBelter> take care

Nov 01 17:31:12 <Dan> See you next time, SolBelter.

Nov 01 17:31:17 <SolBelter> u 2!

Nov 01 17:31:25 <Hippy> See ya, SolB

Nov 01 17:31:40 * SolBelter waves and fades....

Nov 01 17:31:41 <vilstef> Later, SB!

Nov 01 17:31:42 <Lensman> Actually I thought it was interesting how Mars mission personell, who monitor the rovers, have to shift their start/finish work time every day. The rovers are only active when the sun shine, and IIRC the Martian day differs from Earth time by 20 minutes per day. So every day their shift starts 20 minute later.

Nov 01 17:31:50 * SolBelter has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Nov 01 17:32:06 <Hippy> I think I'll measure everything in falans. "So how many falans is that from now?' It'll make people think

Nov 01 17:32:13 <Dan> That is interesting. Never knew that.

Nov 01 17:33:06 <Lensman> LOL! When researching my Ringworld timeline, I finally had to figure out a rough conversion: 4 falans per year. It's fairly close.

Nov 01 17:33:17 <Hippy> That's an interesting point from a future history perspective

Nov 01 17:33:24 <vilstef> Make it especially confusing by making the martian hours 20 minutes long-so 76 hours a day!

Nov 01 17:34:00 <vilstef> No, 73, braindeat me!

Nov 01 17:34:37 <Hippy> Let's see now, if I assume fourteen rishes per falan, allowing for the wind and shadow square saving time, it's now just eighteen microfalans past lauds and matins. Yes.

Nov 01 17:34:39 <Dan> Hmmmm... A Martian day is 24 minutes and some seconds longer than an Earth day, right?

Nov 01 17:35:08 * Larry is back.

Nov 01 17:35:17 <Dan> Welcome back, Larry.

Nov 01 17:35:19 <Jim> Larry!!!

Nov 01 17:35:19 <Lensman> Dan: Without looking it up, sounds about right.

Nov 01 17:35:48 <dmac44> I thought a falan was about 75 days?

Nov 01 17:36:00 <Dan> Blame James Blish for my ability to remember that bit of trivia.

Nov 01 17:36:13 <Lensman> Hippy: Now convert to standard units for convenience: Furlongs per fortnight. :)

Nov 01 17:36:38 <Lensman> dmac: Yes, 75 days of 30 hours each.

Nov 01 17:36:50 <Dan> I read his novel "Welcome to Mars" back when I was in grade school and that factoid stuck in my head.

Nov 01 17:37:03 <Hippy> I must look that 'fpf' stuff up again. It was really fun

Nov 01 17:38:39 <Dan> BRB, gotta walk the dog...

Nov 01 17:39:36 <dmac44> 1 falan equals about 1 semester or one season here on earth

Nov 01 17:39:46 <Lensman> "the solar day (known as the "sol") is 24 hours, 39 minutes, 35.24409 seconds (88775.24409 seconds)" Thank you Mr. Spock.

Nov 01 17:40:30 <Lensman> Hmmm I thought it was about 20 minutes off... this says it's about 40!

Nov 01 17:41:19 <Lensman> Looks like Wikipedia says the same, so I presume that's right.

Nov 01 17:41:34 <Hippy> One falan=73 days=5x73=365 days

Nov 01 17:41:54 <Hippy> So five falans to the Earth year

Nov 01 17:42:29 <Hippy> Now, in 'Brenda' you've got that planet that had a 'A' and 'B' years, which I thought was a neat idea

Nov 01 17:42:53 <dmac44> not if a ringworld day is 30 earth hours long

Nov 01 17:43:07 <Lensman> One falan = 75 days x 30 hours = 2250 hours / 24 = 93.75 Earth days x 4 = 375 days.

Nov 01 17:43:09 <Dan> Back again.

Nov 01 17:43:13 <NickE> brb. Cellar flooding again!

Nov 01 17:43:59 <Hippy> Oops. I didn't think about the hours

Nov 01 17:44:01 <Lensman> So 4 falans = 1.027 years.

Nov 01 17:44:39 <Lensman> Hippy: Yah that threw me off a few times back in the day, too.

Nov 01 17:46:42 <Lensman> Larry: So are all five books you have planned with Ed to be Known Space books? Or have you decided yet?

Nov 01 17:47:51 <Larry> It's all known space, stories fitted into the cracks and crannies.

Nov 01 17:47:56 <NickE> bollocks to it. I'll pump it out tomorrow

Nov 01 17:48:21 <Lensman> "Brenda"? Who wrote that?

Nov 01 17:48:25 <Hippy> So is it rain causing this, Nick?

Nov 01 17:48:44 <Hippy> There's a guy on this channel, Lens, who wrote it

Nov 01 17:48:46 <Larry> Ed wants to play with Louis Wu as a youth. / I wrote Brenda.

Nov 01 17:48:57 <dmac44> Larry, do those 5 include the 2 you and Ed have already published?

Nov 01 17:49:10 <Lensman> Okay, sackcloth and ashes time. :(

Nov 01 17:49:16 <Larry> dmac44: yes.

Nov 01 17:49:33 <Lensman> Is "Brenda" a standalone or part of a series?

Nov 01 17:50:15 <Hippy> Well, it's in the 'Mote' universe

Nov 01 17:50:24 <Dan> A standalone that ties into a character in "Gripping Hand" as I recall.

Nov 01 17:50:31 <Larry> "Brenda" is set in the MOTE universe.

Nov 01 17:50:33 <Lensman> Oh, is that the one about the female "Sauron Superman" character?

Nov 01 17:50:39 <Dan> Yep.

Nov 01 17:50:52 <Larry> Lensman: yeah.

Nov 01 17:51:00 <Lensman> Obviously I need to re-read that!

Nov 01 17:51:12 <Hippy> And she turns out to be Terry Kakumi (from 'Moat') 's mother

Nov 01 17:51:27 * Hippy hopes he got that name right

Nov 01 17:51:42 <Larry> "Brenda" was written for Jerry Pournelle's "Warworld" anthologies.

Nov 01 17:52:00 <Hippy> I always liked the idea of being able to eat 'anything organic - anything'. It means I could cook for myself

Nov 01 17:52:24 <Lensman> I've read /Gripping Hand/ twice but don't remember Terry Kakumi, sorry. What was that character's job or position?

Nov 01 17:52:48 <Larry> Yes, Saurans can cook for themselves--but only themselves.

Nov 01 17:52:53 <Dan> Engineer on the racing yaht that the moties captured.

Nov 01 17:53:02 <Lensman> Yah I think I have that /WarWorld/ volume.

Nov 01 17:53:21 <Hippy> They could run a restaurant chain with the slogan 'Eat Up - Or Else'

Nov 01 17:55:26 <vilstef> I draw the line at eating anything which will kill me quickly. . .

Nov 01 17:55:41 <Lensman> Well no I guess I don't. I have "Reflex" in /There Will Be War/.

Nov 01 17:55:46 <Dan> No fugu for you, then.

Nov 01 17:56:12 <vilstef> I have a short list of people for the fugu.

Nov 01 17:56:19 <Dan> LOL!

Nov 01 17:56:25 <Lensman> Okay, when all else fails check the reference...

Nov 01 18:00:07 <Lensman> Aha! I *do* have the original printing of "Brenda", in /New Destinies Vol. III/. So there nyah :P~~~~~

Nov 01 18:00:15 <Lensman> BTW what means "fugu"?

Nov 01 18:00:16 <Larry> everyone waits for Lensman to check the reference...

Nov 01 18:00:36 <Jim> puffer fish

Nov 01 18:00:44 <Dan> Fugu is the Japanese name for sushi made from blowfish.

Nov 01 18:00:46 <Hippy> LOL!, Larry, that is true

Nov 01 18:00:48 <vilstef> A highly poisonous fish which needs very special prep to eat

Nov 01 18:01:00 <Larry> Fugu is a Japanese fish that secrets nerve poison. Sushi must be prepared carefully....

Nov 01 18:01:08 <Lensman> Well I didn't think the state of completeness of my Niven collection was of such widespread interest... :D

Nov 01 18:01:41 <Lensman> Oh the blowfish, okay.

Nov 01 18:01:56 <Hippy> We dote on your collection, Lens. You're the Boswell to Larry's Dr Johnson

Nov 01 18:01:59 <vilstef> I need to make a button which says: Shutup and eat your blowfish.

Nov 01 18:01:59 <dmac44> Brenda is in Warworld vol. 2

Nov 01 18:02:34 <Dan> It's also in Playgrounds of the Mind, or N-Space, as I recall.

Nov 01 18:02:37 <Lensman> "Brenda" was reprinted in /War World No. 2/, according to Dave L.'s bibliography.

Nov 01 18:03:03 <Hippy> I saw it in 'Playgrounds'

Nov 01 18:03:19 <Lensman> Dan: Well I *thought* it was reprinted in a Niven collection, but DL's bibliography doesn't list it. Hmmm let me look.

Nov 01 18:03:34 <dmac44> fugu, a reason for food tasters

Nov 01 18:04:09 <vilstef> And an incorruptable Fugu Chef.

Nov 01 18:04:13 <Lensman> Yah it's in N-Space. Have to drop a note to Dave about that!

Nov 01 18:04:25 <Hippy> What is it with the Japanese and poison? They have that dish with live snakes in it, too

Nov 01 18:05:28 <Lensman> From what I've read, it's like extreme sports. Eating blowfish shows you're daring and brave (or is that just stupid?)

Nov 01 18:05:39 <vilstef> The vessel with the pestle has the pellet with the poison . . .

Nov 01 18:05:44 <NickE> What the fugu? :-) Sorry, got sidetraked eleswhere fopr a mo

Nov 01 18:05:52 <dmac44> evolution in action?

Nov 01 18:05:55 <Lensman> But the chalice with the palace holds the brew that is true!

Nov 01 18:05:59 <NickE> LOL

Nov 01 18:06:05 <Hippy> Then there's chewing a yellow vegetable between flat teeth. Ugh!

Nov 01 18:06:29 <Lensman> Oops, that's been changed: It's now the flagon with the dragon.

Nov 01 18:06:49 <Dan> Does that mean that Kizinti would dislike the taste of vegitarians? :)

Nov 01 18:07:10 <NickE> Corn fed Economist? Yummy

Nov 01 18:07:19 <Hippy> Gourmet Kzinti might

Nov 01 18:07:33 <Lensman> Hippy: I didn't realize you were a Kzin! But then in a chatroom, who can tell? Hey, do you use corks on your claws like Fly-By-Night?

Nov 01 18:07:37 <vilstef> Would thinking of eating a vegetarian make a Kzin telepath queasy?

Nov 01 18:07:47 <NickE> No

Nov 01 18:07:56 <NickE> most prey is vegetarian

Nov 01 18:08:11 <NickE> almost by definition

Nov 01 18:08:12 <Hippy> Yes to the corks, but it requires drinking eight bottles of wine

Nov 01 18:08:20 <Dan> Doable.

Nov 01 18:08:27 <NickE> Kzinti. Big drinkers?

Nov 01 18:08:28 <Lensman> One for each finger, gotcha.

Nov 01 18:08:43 <NickE> Well other than physically of course

Nov 01 18:08:46 <Lensman> But Fly-By-Night was deformed, he had five fingers.

Nov 01 18:09:15 <Hippy> I'll have to read that one again, I don't remember that part

Nov 01 18:09:24 <NickE> me too

Nov 01 18:09:31 <NickE> bad fan bad fan!

Nov 01 18:09:55 <Dan> Or they could start the meal with on Discworld XXXXian sheep drover and just harvest the needed corks off of their hat.

Nov 01 18:10:02 <Hippy> This raises a question - how many fingers do they have?

Nov 01 18:10:04 <NickE> heh

Nov 01 18:10:19 <Lensman> Well I was confused because Kzinti use base eight, so I assumed four fingers on each hand, but then Fly-By-Night has five (I think he uses a Human keyboard?) so I thought perhaps that's wrong. But then JOW specifies four fingers.

Nov 01 18:10:19 <NickE> They count in octal so 4 digits

Nov 01 18:10:23 <NickE> I assume

Nov 01 18:10:42 <NickE> That goes back toe RW

Nov 01 18:11:10 <Lensman> Maybe the Kzinti on Sheathclaws have been genetically or surgically altered to have five fingers. Or maybe FBN is just an oddball, as some few humans have six fingers.

Nov 01 18:11:23 <Hippy> So, wait, we have the source here. Larry, how many fingers do Kzinti have?

Nov 01 18:12:21 <Larry> Four fingers for Kzinti. Five is either a mutation or an author's mistake.

Nov 01 18:12:31 <Hippy> Lens, are you assuming FBN had five fingers because he can use a human keyboard? Or is it stated?

Nov 01 18:12:43 <Lensman> But you never make mistakes! Obviously a mutation.

Nov 01 18:12:52 <Hippy> Ah, the voice of canon. Nothing like it!

Nov 01 18:13:15 <Lensman> Hippy: From memory, it says five. Just a minute, I'll consult my text file.

Nov 01 18:13:35 <Hippy> Thanks, Lens

Nov 01 18:14:46 <Larry> by memory...he's using four fingers on a human keyboard. Takes practice, but can be done.

Nov 01 18:14:48 <Hippy> Now there's a thesis: unevolved Thrint have three fingers, bit less primitive Kzinti four, humans five, Puppeteers you would have to consult Fleet of Worlds because that's the font of all PP knowledge, Outsiders - who knows? Nine? As in cat o' nine tails?

Nov 01 18:15:20 <Hippy> Well, most people use four on a keyboard, if you ignore your right thumb

Nov 01 18:15:57 <Lensman> Hmmm I can't find it now in "Fly-By-Night". So take that with a few grains of salt. My memory is far from perfect.

Nov 01 18:16:50 <NickE> heck I only use 2 or 3 fingers :-)

Nov 01 18:17:27 <NickE> Though future keyboards wouldn't necessarily be QWERTY type

Nov 01 18:18:40 <Hippy> It would be interesting to see if QWERTY did last that long. The sandwich had disappeared by Louis Wu's time

Nov 01 18:19:15 <Lensman> IIRC FOW specifies QWERTY keyboards, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're still in use in the Beowulf Shaeffer era.

Nov 01 18:20:02 <Dan> I use five fingers to type, but that's counting all the fingers that I use on both hands. LOL!

Nov 01 18:20:21 <Hippy> What if they kept the keyboard as QWERTY but altered spelling so you could type mostly on the middle rows?

Nov 01 18:20:59 <Larry> Hippy, that's a mad idea.

Nov 01 18:21:34 <Hippy> Thanks. I just tried to type a sentence and it was very dfkld

Nov 01 18:21:45 <NickE> heh

Nov 01 18:22:13 <Dan> A case of Newspeak losing out to Oldtype? :)

Nov 01 18:22:44 <Hippy> Well, look at how people write nowadays - "How r u?' comes to mind

Nov 01 18:22:52 <Hippy> And L8r

Nov 01 18:23:08 <Hippy> So, ease of typing does alter spelling

Nov 01 18:23:42 <Lensman> Ah! found it! "Fly-By-Night wore a kind of rope vest, pockets all over it, and buttons or corks on the points of all ten of its finger claws."

Nov 01 18:24:00 <vilstef> I'd think a lot of it is because of 2-3 finger typists.

Nov 01 18:24:04 <Lensman> MKW IX p. 300, paperback edition.

Nov 01 18:24:13 <dmac44> mutation then.

Nov 01 18:24:19 <Dan> Hippy, I sometimes think that Texting is worse on the English Language than Ebonics ever was.

Nov 01 18:24:34 <Lensman> But sure, you could learn to type with one fewer fingers on each hand. Why not?

Nov 01 18:24:34 <Larry> aaarrggh!

Nov 01 18:25:00 <Dan> Aaarrggh?

Nov 01 18:25:08 <Lensman> Oops! I just got a permanent -1 reaction from Larry Niven!

Nov 01 18:25:32 <Hippy> Ebonics at least reflects the way things are spoken - texting is just for speed's sake, I suppose, but it propagates itself because that's all its users ever read

Nov 01 18:25:33 <Lensman> "Hey Larry, look at this pen, isn't it neat?" FLASH!

Nov 01 18:26:28 <Lensman> But it's not Larry's fault! Obviously the copy-editor thought "eight" was a mistake, and "corrected" it to "ten".

Nov 01 18:26:45 <Hippy> Yeah, that must've been it :)

Nov 01 18:26:54 <vilstef> If he goes AAARRRGGGGH again it means he's re-read what's on the screen

Nov 01 18:27:14 <Hippy> Of course, you could also picture a race of Kzinti with hereditary polydactyly (love that word!)

Nov 01 18:27:28 <Dan> I'm sorry, but my opinion is that Ebonics should be left to the spoken word of inner-city children and not apply to the written words at all.

Nov 01 18:27:29 <Larry> Okay, that can happen, but Author is supposed to catch it.

Nov 01 18:27:40 <Hippy> If said race was isolated for a time on its own planet, they'd keep the five finges as a recessive gene

Nov 01 18:28:02 <Hippy> This is like covering all the mistakes in 'Star Trek'

Nov 01 18:28:19 <dmac44> then there's Eubonics texting :)

Nov 01 18:28:54 <Dan> Oh good, Larry wasn't "aaarrggh-ing" over my mentioning the Ebonic Plague.

Nov 01 18:29:25 <Lensman> Hippy: Oh no, no, no, no NO. Known space is *much* more self-consistant than Star Trek. Especially Trek after "Enterprise".

Nov 01 18:29:29 * Lensman shudders

Nov 01 18:29:38 <NickE> wel yeah

Nov 01 18:30:01 <Lensman> No, I think Larry was Aaargh!-ing my quote from "Fly-By-Night".

Nov 01 18:30:14 * Hippy also shakes his head sadly at the historical revisionism of 'Enterprise'

Nov 01 18:30:27 <Larry> Lensman: yeah.

Nov 01 18:30:59 <Lensman> So I guess my flashy-pen didn't work then? Rats, gonna hafta get that fixed.

Nov 01 18:31:15 <Dan> That revisionism started with NextGen, as I recall. I *hated* the distain NG characters showed towards TOS characters and stories.

Nov 01 18:31:21 <Hippy> Now, speaking of editing: Larry, does it bug you that they changed 'Rhodesia' in The Fourth Profession to 'Zimbabwe' in the N-Space reprint?

Nov 01 18:31:29 <NickE> Oh well. If it's any consolation, it's probably only here that anyone would notice :-)

Nov 01 18:31:35 * Lensman nods towards Dan.

Nov 01 18:32:42 <Lensman> Nick: Well obviously only someone as obsessive-compulsive as me would notice a tiny detail like FBN having more than eight fingers, or else someone else would have brought it up with Larry before.

Nov 01 18:32:53 <dmac44> I don't know about you all but I expect different levels of self consistency from different future histories. Star trek is loose, I expect Known Space to be tighter and the Mote univesre to be tighter yet. It all depends on the number of 'science fiction' assumptions the authors make.

Nov 01 18:33:24 <NickE> I'm happy to assume mutation/polydactyly

Nov 01 18:33:53 <Jim> Star Trek had to labor under scores of writers and producers. A one man operation like Known Space or Babylon 5 can be much more consistent.

Nov 01 18:34:01 <Lensman> Well, it depends on the number of writers and the number of stories. The more stories there are, the harder it is to keep all the details consistant. Right, Larry?

Nov 01 18:34:05 <Larry> Hippy: Rhodesia to Zimbabwe? I never noticed.

Nov 01 18:34:06 <Dan> dmac44, I agree. But I do wish that there were such things as "Continuity Editors" on most TV SF shows.

Nov 01 18:34:18 <NickE> Aye. Trek was fun but you had to allow for it's flaws

Nov 01 18:34:25 <Dan> Granted.

Nov 01 18:34:46 <Jim> Enterprise: the Vulcans are grumpy

Nov 01 18:34:50 <Lensman> Trek had many writers and many producers. "Too many cooks spoil the broth". "Too many chiefs and not enough Indians."

Nov 01 18:35:11 <NickE> But yeah, teh revisionism could be annoying. I never got past S2 (well not even that) of Enterprise

Nov 01 18:35:31 <Larry> Lensman: right. Consistency tends to impossible given enough stories.

Nov 01 18:35:33 <Hippy> Larry: it's there. It bugs me because it's changing your text for some modern political reason. But it's your text! How dare they??

Nov 01 18:36:15 <Dan> Lens, that's a lesson I took to heart when it came to my shared universe series online. I continuity edit with an iron hand, yet still allow continuity errors to occur if the individual story is of high enough quality.

Nov 01 18:36:18 <Hippy> In the TOR hardcover, anyway

Nov 01 18:36:47 <Lensman> Next Gen *did* have continuity editors. At least they got their stardates in chronological order! But it's appalling how inconsistant Next Gen is in just how long it's set after Classic Trek. We've debated this extensively on the LN list.

Nov 01 18:36:55 <NickE> Yes. That's how it was written. This is why I have no problem reading old SF, thats' how it *was*. I can allow for that and it in no way spoils my enjoyment

Nov 01 18:37:59 <Larry> I'm off. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, it's been entertaining.

Nov 01 18:38:10 <Hippy> For us as well

Nov 01 18:38:16 <Jim> Seeya Larry

Nov 01 18:38:23 <Hippy> I hope your eyes stay well

Nov 01 18:38:23 <NickE> It's stories after all. They change in the telling, so of course later versions or stories that come from older ones may not fit exactly

Nov 01 18:38:32 <vilstef> CYA Larry

Nov 01 18:38:34 <NickE> Thanks Larry

Nov 01 18:38:35 <Dan> See you next time, Larry!

Nov 01 18:38:47 <Lensman> Well I guess it depends on what the author thinks is important. "Never let the facts stand in the way of a good story." Should this also apply to continuity? Should an author pass up on the opportunity to make a more interesting story because it would conflict in minor way with a previous story?

Nov 01 18:39:05 <Lensman> Thanks for another interesting chat Larry!

Nov 01 18:39:11 <NickE> As you say, it depends

Nov 01 18:39:53 <Dan> Oneof the challenges in writing a series is tweaking things so that continuity stays consistant, if not exact.

Nov 01 18:40:17 <Hippy> You could start with a detailed chronology

Nov 01 18:40:41 <Hippy> With Trek, they never let consistency stand in a story's way

Nov 01 18:40:43 <NickE> Personally I think we all enjoy the overall self consistent nature of Known Space and The N Mote universe and so on. Analysing it is part of the fun so of course we'll find a few things that don't quite fit for all sorts of reasons

Nov 01 18:41:01 * growler (~growler@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 01 18:41:07 <NickE> hi eaun

Nov 01 18:41:13 <NickE> Euan

Nov 01 18:41:13 <Dan> Hippy, that helps, but sometimes you come up with great ideas that would require the chronology itself to be tweaked.

Nov 01 18:41:19 <Hippy> Morning, Euan

Nov 01 18:41:32 <Lensman> But I'm a selfish reader. I want to eat my cake and still have it too! So I think if an author wants to do a retcon, it should be done as "Well, here's something that wasn't explained before". Like the rehabilitation of Horace Bury in /The Gripping Hand/. In /Mote/, Bury was a low-down scum of a traitor. But in /Hand/ it's explained thru a backstory that the main characters just *thought* Bury was a traitor; actually he wasn't.

Nov 01 18:41:47 * Jim has changed the topic to: Make fun of Kiwis day

Nov 01 18:41:54 <Hippy> Dan, yeah, but of course people wont' see the chronology until after your fifth Hugo, so you can tweak it all you like :)

Nov 01 18:41:56 <growler> Hi

Nov 01 18:42:00 <Lensman> Greetings Euan

Nov 01 18:42:02 <NickE> heh

Nov 01 18:42:14 <Hippy> LOL, Jim

Nov 01 18:42:45 <growler> kiwis day?

Nov 01 18:43:01 <Lensman> I like kiwis, yummy! :)

Nov 01 18:43:09 <Hippy> Hehehe, well done Euan

Nov 01 18:43:14 <Lensman> Is there more than one Kiwi here?

Nov 01 18:43:15 <growler> bah and humbug, they're just big gooseberries

Nov 01 18:43:25 <Dan> Hippy, my chronology was posted online and linked to before the 4th story in the two World of Bethdish/Mare Inebruim Spaceport Bar series were written.

Nov 01 18:43:59 <Hippy> That was possibly an error, Dan

Nov 01 18:44:17 <Dan> But I shamelessly rewrite the chronology if a good enough idea comes along as I write stories in the two connected series.

Nov 01 18:44:27 <Hippy> You can always call it the 'faux chronology' and then issue the 'definitive' one later

Nov 01 18:45:03 <Hippy> "Mare Inebrium'?? That sounds like a fun place to be

Nov 01 18:45:17 <Dan> My personal fanwank is that there are more than one timeline represented in each series. That usually shuts up any objecting fan. :)

Nov 01 18:45:51 <growler> Authotrs of books probably can't be held to the same structures as a seiral author (for tv for instance)

Nov 01 18:45:56 <growler> The books have to stand on their own

Nov 01 18:46:18 <growler> And it really oughtn't bev held against them if each book needs something al ittle different from its predeccessors

Nov 01 18:46:24 <Dan> Hippy, here is the basic stuff for the Mare Inebrium series:

Nov 01 18:46:26 <Hippy> Well, there's a lot of fantasy writers out there who put the lie to that, Euan

Nov 01 18:46:42 <growler> Of course that becomes probleatci when an author starts writing to an audience who's become hooked on a series

Nov 01 18:46:58 <Lensman> Robert Foster wrote/edited /The Guide to Middle Earth/ before release of /The Silmarillion/. That edition contained info from some sources which completely contradicted info in the /Silmarillion/. So when he did his expanded /The Complete Guide to Middle Earth/, he left out info from suspect sources.

Nov 01 18:47:00 <growler> Cos they aren't then writing individual books

Nov 01 18:47:10 <growler> One of those blurred areas of distinction life is full of

Nov 01 18:47:23 <Jim> Speaking of Continuity: The Stargate SG-1 movie Continuum had all of the old Goul'd enemies but didn't mention Anubis, the chief enemy of Earth for Seasons 5 - 8.

Nov 01 18:48:06 <growler> mutter mutter Stargate. Should have been left to a decent death at series 7

Nov 01 18:48:26 <Hippy> Wow, Dan! I had no idea this was so involved

Nov 01 18:48:30 <growler> I am of the opinion that when the A team left they ought to have started making "Stargate SG-3"

Nov 01 18:48:35 <Lensman> Re multiple timelines: Well Trek has the built-in excuse of "mirror" universes, which helps me with "Enterprise" as I'm not forced to choose between "canonical" and "entirely fictional". Okay, "Enterprise" does portray actual events... in an alternate timeline.

Nov 01 18:49:16 <Lensman> Stargate SG-1 really ran downhill in its final 2-3 seasons, didn't it? Yes, sad it wasn't ended earlier.

Nov 01 18:49:19 <Dan> Hippy, I started off with 11,000 years of historical references for the planet, then developed the ideas further from there.

Nov 01 18:49:21 * Hippy will be AFK for a bit as he readies himself for mowing the lawn later

Nov 01 18:49:38 <Hippy> It looks enormous, Dan

Nov 01 18:49:57 * Hippy is now known as The_Abluting_Hip

Nov 01 18:50:06 <Dan> 50+ stories in the Mare series. I've written 7 or 8 of them.

Nov 01 18:50:23 <Dan> Two were under a pen name.

Nov 01 18:51:02 <Dan> I'm also an uncredited coauthor with about 5 others.

Nov 01 18:51:10 * Larry has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Nov 01 18:51:18 <Lensman> It's always best if you can develop the chronology for a series *before* you write the stories. But AFAIk only Heinlein and Piper did that. Generally they "Grow like Topsy". As Known Space did.

Nov 01 18:52:04 <Dan> Piper and Heinlein were big influences on my chronology, Lens.

Nov 01 18:52:17 <Lensman> Er, sorry SB... Heinlein and Piper and Spike MacPhee.

Nov 01 18:52:48 * shaggy (~shaggy@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 01 18:52:52 <Lensman> Oops! Not SolBelter. Sorry Dan!

Nov 01 18:52:58 <shaggy> ummm is larry niven there?

Nov 01 18:53:07 <Lensman> Tch! Shaggy your timing is abysmal, Larry just left!

Nov 01 18:53:14 <NickE> aw, he just left

Nov 01 18:53:22 <Dan> Larry left just seconds ago.

Nov 01 18:53:45 <NickE> The word you are looking for is Tanj!

Nov 01 18:53:51 <shaggy> and can anyone tell me why he re wrote inferno hundreds of years later

Nov 01 18:53:52 <shaggy> ???

Nov 01 18:53:58 <Lensman> Or futz.

Nov 01 18:54:07 <NickE> yep

Nov 01 18:54:21 <NickE> Why not? It's agreat read

Nov 01 18:54:26 <Dan> Because there were parts of Inferno that he and Jerry wanted to change?

Nov 01 18:54:35 <NickE> brb

Nov 01 18:54:36 * Jim Going to eat supper.

Nov 01 18:54:51 <Lensman> Shaggy: Well, I thought he explained it fairly well in the intro to the excerpt in... was it /Playgrounds of the Mind/ or /N-Space/?

Nov 01 18:55:09 <vilstef> Stuff to do, cya all later.

Nov 01 18:55:16 <shaggy> YEAH, YOU ARE RIGHT

Nov 01 18:55:17 * vilstef has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Nov 01 18:55:53 <Lensman> They also apparently wanted to take some of their fellow writers to task. Like the "SO IT GOES/ SO IT GOES/ SO IT GOES" bit, which I understand is a reference to Kurt Vonnegut?

Nov 01 18:56:03 <dmac44> I'm off, thanks for an intersting couple of hours.


Nov 01 18:56:08 * dmac44 has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Nov 01 18:56:10 * EML (~EML@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 01 18:56:18 <EML> Hi, all.

Nov 01 18:56:23 <Lensman> Hi Ed!

Nov 01 18:56:45 <Dan> They're busy guys and just now had time to do the sequel. Hiya Ed. You just missed Larry again.

Nov 01 18:56:57 <Lensman> Hey, you've been holding out on us, you scoundrel! Larry says you and he are gonna give us no less than FIVE Known Space novels!

Nov 01 18:57:05 <growler> gorram, I want to buy Inferon but bloody amazon isn't being cooperative about the $600 they owe me

Nov 01 18:57:14 <growler> er, inferno

Nov 01 18:57:15 <EML> Sorry about that. Just got home from a family get-together.

Nov 01 18:57:23 <shaggy> Is Larry coming back later???

Nov 01 18:57:30 <Dan> Doubt it.

Nov 01 18:57:33 <Lensman> Shaggy: Not sure I understand your question. Do you mean why so long between /Inferno/ and /Escape from Hell/?

Nov 01 18:57:47 <EML> As to the five ... that's fairly speculative right now.

Nov 01 18:57:49 <Dan> Once Larry goes, he generally stays gone until next chat.

Nov 01 18:58:14 <EML> We've talked about five, but only three are under contract.

Nov 01 18:58:17 <shaggy> Yeah, Inferno was 1976 and now the sequel is Feb 2008

Nov 01 18:58:34 <Lensman> No, Larry will very probably not be coming back later. As I said earlier, he ususally shows up about 1 PM Pacific time. Today it was a bit after 1:30. Try again next month, if you like.

Nov 01 18:58:47 <NickE> Hey Ed

Nov 01 18:59:06 <shaggy> Does Larry respond to email??

Nov 01 18:59:21 <Dan> You've got to take into account the pressures of writing other books, contracts, and needing time to write what they think is the best quality, Shaggy.

Nov 01 18:59:35 <EML> Did you guys talk about Juggler with Larry?

Nov 01 18:59:46 <Dan> Not in specifics, Ed.

Nov 01 18:59:49 <Lensman> Ed: Oh, no no no no. It's a promise, unbreakable as an oath given in Larry's "Tranfer of Power"!

Nov 01 18:59:51 <Lensman> :D

Nov 01 18:59:54 <Dan> He gave us no spoilers.

Nov 01 19:00:30 <EML> Well, the piblisher has a bit of say in these things, too.

Nov 01 19:00:36 <Lensman> No, we didn't talk about Juggler. Hopefully someone will set up a dedicated Juggler chat, as I did for /Fleet of Worlds/.

Nov 01 19:00:59 <EML> The best way to see more books in a series is ... buy the early ones :-)

Nov 01 19:01:14 * Dan curses the fact that he has to wait for the paperback editions of every new book!

Nov 01 19:01:14 * shaggy has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Nov 01 19:01:39 <Lensman> Ed: Oh, nonsense. Tor would publish a collection of Larry's shopping lists if he submitted it as a manuscript! :D

Nov 01 19:02:09 <EML> Since Juggler has been out for about 6 weeks, I thought people would have questions. If that's the case, I'm open to answer.

Nov 01 19:02:25 <Dan> And as an audiobook if Sean Connery would read Larry's shopping lists! LOL!

Nov 01 19:02:30 * shaggy (~shaggy@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 01 19:02:39 <shaggy> Hi I am back

Nov 01 19:02:45 * Dan duct tapes Shaggy to the channel.

Nov 01 19:02:47 <Lensman> Well okay, maybe not laundry/ shopping lists. But seriously, when's the last time Larry had a book-length manuscript rejected?

Nov 01 19:03:32 <Lensman> LOL! Sean Connery yeah. Or Ken Branaugh-- his narration on "Walking with Dinosaurs" was magnificent!

Nov 01 19:03:54 <NickE> I have JOW down on my Christmas List, so not read it yet

Nov 01 19:04:07 <EML> FYI, I set up a mailing list similar to the private Niven mailing list.

Nov 01 19:04:20 <shaggy> Any thoughts on where to find more about the Inferno?

Nov 01 19:04:35 <EML> It's at

Nov 01 19:05:07 <Dan> Don't mind me as far as spoilers are concerned. I've never been bothered about them since I am resigned to waiting for the paperback editions of every bloody book I want to read.

Nov 01 19:05:19 <Lensman> Ed, I saw the paperbackk of /Fleet/ in the bookstore the other day, so I took a peek to see if I could spot the addition you said you would make re continuity and the "safe" ramscoop. There it was on the very first page! Much appreciated.

Nov 01 19:05:20 <EML> Nick: fair enough. I certainly curtail my shopping this time of year.

Nov 01 19:05:45 <shaggy> Is that a joke?

Nov 01 19:06:14 <Dan> Is what a jke, shaggy?

Nov 01 19:06:25 <Lensman> Shaggy: what? there are several conversations going on here.

Nov 01 19:06:31 <NickE> what the duct tape thing?

Nov 01 19:06:47 <EML> Lens: you weren't the only reader who commented on that ramscoop point. Thanks for caring enough to contact us.

Nov 01 19:06:48 <Dan> The duct tape thing *is* a joke.

Nov 01 19:07:16 <Lensman> "Duct tape" is a *friendly* joke, a way to say "We hope you'll stay!"

Nov 01 19:07:25 <NickE> yup

Nov 01 19:07:28 <Lensman> Or "Stick around"

Nov 01 19:07:42 <NickE> used to happen to me all the time

Nov 01 19:07:44 <Dan> Lots of people in chatrooms have trouble staying connected to the room.


Nov 01 19:08:00 <Lensman> Hey ed! Well how many people do you have signed up?

Nov 01 19:08:01 <NickE> mm not as such

Nov 01 19:08:06 <Dan> No, that's for the books that Ed is writing with Larry.

Nov 01 19:08:14 <EML> Okay, I'm going to suggest a bit of discussion -- not a spoiler -- about JOW. To sit, about secret histories.

Nov 01 19:08:30 <Lensman> ooh! Goodie!

Nov 01 19:08:33 <Dan> Ooooo! Secret Histories! I like it!

Nov 01 19:08:47 <EML> About the website I gave above (or, for that matter, my other websites) -- they're about MY writing, whether with Larry or not.

Nov 01 19:09:08 <EML> I have no special insight into Inferno or its sequel.

Nov 01 19:09:08 <Dan> I sit corrected. Thanks, Ed.

Nov 01 19:09:28 * Dan grins.

Nov 01 19:09:35 <EML> Okay, about JOW and secrets ...

Nov 01 19:10:10 <Dan> Yes?

Nov 01 19:10:17 <growler> mmmm, pancakes, maple syrup and bananas for breakfeast

Nov 01 19:10:27 <EML> The book has 13 sections.

Nov 01 19:10:28 <Lensman> Yes, Ed?

Nov 01 19:11:14 <Lensman> Are you hinting there is a secret message hidden in the book?

Nov 01 19:11:16 <EML> Seven take place before, between, or after selected classic Niven stories (from Crashlander and other)

Nov 01 19:11:30 <Dan> The other six?

Nov 01 19:12:02 <EML> The remaining six parallel stories, generally beginning before and ending after the earlier stories.

Nov 01 19:12:47 <EML> As of JOW, events that previously seemed random or coincidental in fact are linked.

Nov 01 19:12:58 <Dan> So is it hard to decide what "behind the scenes" material to expand upon in the new books?

Nov 01 19:13:00 <NickE> Oooh. Damn, gonn ahave to wait!

Nov 01 19:13:32 <EML> Example: Sigmudn shows up on We made It, in "Neutron Star." He shows up on Jinx, in "Borderlands of Sol"

Nov 01 19:13:59 <EML> Why, both times, when Beowulf was there?

Nov 01 19:14:39 <Dan> Um... I'll guess that he was assigned to seek out Bey both times.

Nov 01 19:14:42 <growler> he's an ancient of puppeteers

Nov 01 19:14:46 <growler> er, agent

Nov 01 19:15:01 <EML> Dan: the source material was usually the underexplained (like Why Sigmund was there).

Nov 01 19:15:02 <growler> paert of their manipulation of birthright lotteries

Nov 01 19:15:08 <Dan> I make no guesses as to "assigned by whom."

Nov 01 19:15:59 <EML> To avoid spoilers, I'll say only that Sigmund is a mover and shaker -- he makes things happen. Just like Nessus, the second main character in JOW.

Nov 01 19:16:10 <Dan> Unless there is a Protector that is secretly the head of ARM.

Nov 01 19:16:21 <Dan> LOL!

Nov 01 19:16:30 <EML> Dan: no protectors until book #3.

Nov 01 19:16:36 <Dan> OK, I don't mind guessing wrong.

Nov 01 19:17:35 <Lensman> I liked Siggy in "Neutron Star". He was presented as a dapper gentlemen. I liked Siggy in "Borderland", especially the way Bey was able to get his goat. Friction between characters always makes for a more interesting story. The Siggy in JOW was a completely different character. It's hard to feel much sympathy for a raving lunatic whose entire motivation is paranoid fantasies.

Nov 01 19:17:48 <EML> So back to secret history. That's a story that's consistent with KNOWN history (in this case, a known future history) that shows heretofore unsuspected plots, linkages, people of influence.

Nov 01 19:18:59 <EML> Lens: IMO, Siggy in the Shaeffer stories was a cipher, there to move along the plot but rather one dimensional.

Nov 01 19:19:23 * The_Abluting_Hip is now known as Hippy

Nov 01 19:19:33 <Hippy> Howdy, Ed

Nov 01 19:19:34 <Lensman> I was very glad to see certain things explaine in JOW which were previously unexplained. I won't specify what, to avoid spoilers. I hope we can talk this over again in a dedicated JOW chat.

Nov 01 19:20:08 <EML> I would be happy to do a dedicated JOW chat. I guess the question is when.

Nov 01 19:20:12 <Dan> Siggy in "Borderland" certainly showed paranoid pre-preparation for any possible conflict.

Nov 01 19:21:39 <Lensman> Ed: Not to say you're "Wrong"... to some extent you *can't* be wrong, the author is always right because it's his universe. But the sort of person who would say to Bey "If I'm wrong, you can punch me in the nose and I'll apologize" does not strike me as a bug-frack crazy paranoid lunatic.

Nov 01 19:21:56 <EML> Dan: in JOW, hopefully we show more than paranoia. Sigmund had a childhood, lovers, losses in life. And some of his most paranoid fears -- weren't paranoid enough.

Nov 01 19:22:29 <Dan> Ed, sounds like you made Siggy into a realistic, well-rounded person.

Nov 01 19:23:41 <EML> Dan: hopefully so. But still paranoid.

Nov 01 19:24:37 <Dan> No one ever said that paranoids weren't realistic. Especially ARM paranoids.

Nov 01 19:24:42 <Dan> :)

Nov 01 19:26:16 <EML> :-)

Nov 01 19:27:00 <EML> There's a reason, BTW, I just started a mailing list -- a new book coming out.

Nov 01 19:27:18 <Dan> A solo book?

Nov 01 19:27:29 <EML> Fools' Experiments releases 11/11. It's my first solo book in two years.

Nov 01 19:27:42 <Lensman> I also think it's hard to rationalize the way Ander so easily killed Siggy in "Ghost". If Siggy was that paranoid, he should have considered the possibility Ander might betray him and taken precautions. In fact, I'd think that would be the #1 indication of a true paranoiac-- precautions, always considering your ally might be an enemy, always having an escape plan and a backup plan.

Nov 01 19:28:55 <EML> Lens: yes and no. If the hero is infallible, he's less interesting (and less believable).

Nov 01 19:29:08 <Lensman> Good point, Ed.

Nov 01 19:29:23 <EML> And as a secret history, JOW can't rewrite what Larry had done to Sigmund in Ghost.

Nov 01 19:29:59 <Lensman> Hey, is it just me, or did "Ghost" never explain how Ander got ahold of Feather's "horrible ARM weapon"? I'm still confused about that.

Nov 01 19:30:28 <EML> For those curious about my next book, Tom Easton did a great review (Tom was Analog's reviewer for 30 years).

Nov 01 19:30:30 <EML>

Nov 01 19:31:15 <Hippy> And good recommendations he made, too

Nov 01 19:31:27 * Jim Says Hi to Ed after supper.

Nov 01 19:32:01 <EML> Yup, I'm sad to see him retire. OTOH, the guest reviewer in the Jan/Feb issue (Ian Randal Strock) did a great review of JOW.

Nov 01 19:34:01 <Hippy> Dang - it's 10:30 here, and lawns must be mown, lest the landlord arc up, so I'm afriad I'll have to adjourn

Nov 01 19:34:10 <Hippy> This has been excellent

Nov 01 19:34:22 <EML> Lens: IIRC Bey speculates Sharrol left the punch gun in the room she rented under Bey's assumed name, and that Ander got the gun while snopping around.

Nov 01 19:34:23 <Hippy> Lens, if you can send me the chatlog I'd be much obliged

Nov 01 19:34:40 <Hippy> Criminally much obliged (whatever that means)

Nov 01 19:34:46 <EML> Bye, Hippy.

Nov 01 19:34:59 <Hippy> "Bye, Ed

Nov 01 19:35:06 <Dan> Bye for now, Hippy!

Nov 01 19:35:29 <Hippy> 'Bye, Dan - enjoy the Georgia Fall

Nov 01 19:35:45 <Dan> All three weeks of it, yeah. :)

Nov 01 19:35:46 <Lensman> Ed: I don't have a Google Groups account. Can I request you sign me up directly?

Nov 01 19:36:39 <Lensman> Hippy: Okay.

Nov 01 19:36:50 <Hippy> Thanks

Nov 01 19:37:10 <Hippy> in case you forgot my email address

Nov 01 19:37:20 <Hippy> And now, with a twirl of his cape, he's off

Nov 01 19:37:40 <Hippy> See you all next month (when I'll still be able to see, cross everything)

Nov 01 19:37:47 * Hippy has quit ()

Nov 01 19:39:12 <EML> Lens: yes, I can sign you up (I believe). I'll give it a shot soon, using your usual address (or email me if you want me to use a different address).

Nov 01 19:39:26 <Lensman> Sharrol had the punch gun? I guess I'm going to have to re-read "Procrustes" AND "Ghost" to understand the sequence of events.

Nov 01 19:39:47 <Lensman> Ed: No, same address, but I'll send you a reminder.

Nov 01 19:40:27 <EML> Sharrol killed Feather, so she had the opportunity to take the gun. Someone took the gun from the island, else Bey would have found it when he left the 'doc.

Nov 01 19:40:28 <Lensman> Done.

Nov 01 19:40:29 <Dan> I just signed up for it VIA my g-mail account, Ed. Thanks for telling us about it.

Nov 01 19:41:23 <EML> All: my pleasure. I sense it'll be a while, thought, till it rivals the Niven listserv for activity :-)

Nov 01 19:41:25 <Lensman> I guess I don't understand the motive for Sharrol to keep the gun. Not very smart for someone trying to hide her identity!

Nov 01 19:42:15 <Dan> What's not to understand? Find weapon, know one has enemies, keep weapon in hidden place for emergencies.

Nov 01 19:42:19 <Lensman> Ed: Oh, I dunno, you just need to attract two or three blabbermouths like me... :D

Nov 01 19:45:52 <EML> Lens, Dan -- you shoudl now be in the system. Check at

Nov 01 19:46:14 <EML> I dunno if you'll need to make up a password the first time, Lens.

Nov 01 19:46:15 <Dan> I'm in. It shifted me to the site automatically.

Nov 01 19:47:25 <EML> I'll be sending out an EML newsletter via the list in about a week (when Fools' Experikents comes out).

Nov 01 19:47:44 <Dan> Looking forward to it.

Nov 01 19:48:10 <EML> My last newsletter (announcing Juggler, et. al., is there already.

Nov 01 19:49:56 <EML> Lens: did Dan's answer address your comment about Sharrol and the gun?

Nov 01 19:50:15 <Lensman> Oh, a virgin list! Nothing there except a few messages from the list owner!

Nov 01 19:50:33 <EML> FWIW, Juggler merely asumes Ander has a gun, and doesn't worry about where he found it.

Nov 01 19:50:37 <Lensman> Sure, Dan's answer is probably the best.

Nov 01 19:50:49 <Dan> Oh know, there'll be 10,000 posts by Lens within the hour! LOL!

Nov 01 19:50:58 <Jim> I wanna be an ARM agent.

Nov 01 19:51:00 <EML> Lens: I figure it'll be deflowered soon enough ;-)

Nov 01 19:51:25 <Lensman> Should I be gentle the first time?

Nov 01 19:51:53 <Dan> When one has an enemy, one either learns to think paranoid or one risks death.

Nov 01 19:52:34 <Lensman> No, the thing is, if I had just killed a cop on a small island, and had to take a boat back to the mainland, I'd drop the gun in deep water on the way. But I suppose that's unfair of me; Sharrol likely wasn't thinking entirely rationally at the time!

Nov 01 19:53:08 <EML> of course that cop was an illegal immigrant and a nut case.

Nov 01 19:53:10 <Lensman> But who was Sharrol's purported enemy?

Nov 01 19:53:26 <Dan> Hmmm... Does that gun look like a gun or an odd piece of sculpture?

Nov 01 19:54:05 <EML> BTW, Juggler gives backstory and depth to more than just Sigmund. You'll learn more about Feather, Julian Forward, and Carlos Wu, among others.

Nov 01 19:54:25 <Jim> Feather's fatal flaw was that she wanted a baby. A lot women, once they get to a certain age, get the baby urge.

Nov 01 19:54:27 <Lensman> Right, Feather had gone rogue. Look, if the ARM was after Sharrol she's screwed anyway. Her only hope is to keep a low profile. Hiding an illegal ARM weapon in your home is *not* the best way to avoid trouble!

Nov 01 19:54:28 <Dan> Presumably, Sharrol's enemy was whoever wanted to keep her and Bey and the kids apart.

Nov 01 19:55:25 <Dan> Long list of ARM agents, I know.

Nov 01 19:55:31 <EML> Sharrol et al had been led to believe they were refugees hunted by the ARM. (An odd belief, I always thought, and now explained in Juggler.)

Nov 01 19:55:43 <Lensman> Well I did find very satisfying one particular "behind the scenes" revelation re Feather in light of Bey's motivation to take it on the lam. But again I can't talk about that w/o a spoiler.

Nov 01 19:56:35 <Dan> Can't speak for anyone else, but spoilers aren't a concern of mine.

Nov 01 19:57:26 <Dan> Otherwise, I'd have never been able to read Dune, Ringworld, or LOTR several hundred times each.

Nov 01 19:57:51 <Lensman> Ed: Well, that's the spoiler. So THANK YOU for that explanation! It always bugged me that Human Space in the Beowulf Shaeffer era seems like such an open society, yet Bey found it necessary to go on the lam in "Procrustes". The idea that it was all a lie by Feather makes *so* much more sense!

Nov 01 19:57:54 <EML> I don't want to bog down in whether Sharrol would have kept the weapon. That's a queston for Larry. In JUGGLER, as I typed above, it's said only that Ander has *a* punchgun. Sigmund only speculates (as he's shot) it might have been Feather's.

Nov 01 19:58:01 <Dan> Once I'm inside a book, nothing exists *but* the book.

Nov 01 19:58:22 <Jim> Dan, same here.

Nov 01 19:58:41 <Lensman> Right, the gun was there re "Ghost", you shouldn't be taken to task for something Larry did.

Nov 01 19:58:56 <EML> BTW, Lens, can you also send me the full chatlog?

Nov 01 19:59:00 <Jim> How is a punchgun different from a regular pistol?

Nov 01 19:59:37 <EML> Jim: undefined. Larry made up the name just to sound big and mean.

Nov 01 19:59:46 <Lensman> A regular pistol does not blow a foot-diameter hole clear thru you!

Nov 01 20:00:44 <EML> think dum-dum bullet.

Nov 01 20:00:59 <Jim> Lensman, a sawed off 10 gauge shotgun loaded with buckshot may blow a big hole.

Nov 01 20:01:11 <Lensman> "Nothing exists but the book". Right I "lose myself" in a good story, book or movie. If I do *not* lose myself in the story, I figure it's not a good story. I'm anxious to re-immerse myself in the world of /The Burning City/, I'm about 2/3 of the way thru that.

Nov 01 20:01:37 <Dan> Judging from the effect, I'd guess that a punchgun would be bigger, bulkier, and slightly more awkward than a cartridge pistol or rifle. Plus, I'd guess that it'd have some kind of propellant tank attached - Somewhat like a paintball gun, only larger.

Nov 01 20:02:12 <Lensman> Dum-dum has a huge exit wound but a normal entry wound. Remember the lifejacket that was found? Huge hole front *and* back IIRC from the punch gun.

Nov 01 20:02:50 <EML> I'm content to believe a gun existed with the described properties. (In fact, I had to.)

Nov 01 20:03:14 <Lensman> Ed: Okay, I'll add you to the list for chat log.

Nov 01 20:03:22 <Dan> Then the punchgun would either have a huge projectile, or a load of small projectiles that spread.

Nov 01 20:03:40 <EML> I'll bring up one more thing about Juggler, discuss it a bit if people would like, then toddle off.

Nov 01 20:03:53 <Dan> Huge velocity for the projectile(s), in any case.

Nov 01 20:04:20 <EML> To wit: there's new backstory about the Outsiders.

Nov 01 20:04:28 <Dan> Oooooooo!

Nov 01 20:05:12 <Lensman> "Punch gun" does sound like it was a kinetic weapon, not an energy weapon. But not impossible... they do have force fields. It *could* be an energy weapon.... punches a force field right thru your body! But I'd have to look... if it makes a loud noise, it almost certainly throws out projectiles.

Nov 01 20:06:26 <Lensman> Anyway, I'm not saying the punch gun is improbable, I'm saying it's rather far from a normal pistol.

Nov 01 20:06:38 <Dan> Agreed.

Nov 01 20:07:00 <Jim> OK

Nov 01 20:07:24 <Dan> But then, the less normal it looks, the better the chances are that Sharrol would think that she could tote it back to her room and hide it.

Nov 01 20:07:36 <Lensman> Something like a flechette gun with high-velocity and high-inertia flechettes would do it, I think.

Nov 01 20:07:46 <Lensman> Basically a supercharged shotgun.

Nov 01 20:08:15 <Jim> Ed, tell us about the Outsiders backstory.

Nov 01 20:08:34 <Dan> That's the way I pictured it when I was reading "Ghost."

Nov 01 20:09:43 <Dan> Yes, a few teaser details, please. Lensman can always put a "SPOILERS" warning on the chat log link.

Nov 01 20:10:15 <EML> I really *can't* tell you much, except that it turned into a retcon. It turns out there is a page describing the Outsiders at the back of The Gift from Earth that had *nothing* to do with the plot.

Nov 01 20:10:15 <Lensman> I do not do the chat logs which are posted to the site.

Nov 01 20:10:47 <Lensman> If you ask me for a chat log, you'll get an ascii file of what my mIRC program displayed.

Nov 01 20:10:56 <EML> Neither Larry nor I remembered that page ... and the backstory that emerges in Juggler diverges.

Nov 01 20:11:00 <Dan> Ah. Sorry. Sean will have to do the warning, then.

Nov 01 20:11:27 <Lensman> Yup, Sean.

Nov 01 20:11:56 <EML> What we learn is really plot critical, more than your average spoiler.

Nov 01 20:12:19 <EML> So I'll say only a VERY LITTLE ...

Nov 01 20:12:21 <Dan> I vaguely remember that page from "Gift." But all I can really recall is that the Outsiders saw the Ramrobot and decided to follow it.

Nov 01 20:13:14 <Lensman> AFAIK Ed wasn't aware of the few paragraphs in /A Gift from Earth/ until I brought it up with him. The conversation at the end of JOW has different assumptions for the Outsiders... sorta like Ringworld has different assumptions than were used in "Down in Flames".

Nov 01 20:13:17 <Dan> Towards Wonderland, as I recall.

Nov 01 20:13:28 <EML> The Outsiders are secretive. some info about their key technology is nominally for sale, but for a prohibitive trillion stars.

Nov 01 20:14:16 <EML> And yet there are things about them seemingly volunteered for free. An odd contrast, don't you think?

Nov 01 20:14:19 <Lensman> The Outsiders were attracted towards, and later sold the hyperdrive tech, to We Made It. Not Wunderland, which is located at Alpha Centauri.

Nov 01 20:15:46 <Dan> My mistake. My memory is far from perfect.

Nov 01 20:16:23 <EML> As I think of it, Gift from Earth itself contradicts other canon. Gift has sigthing a ramscoop attracting the Outsiders to We Made It.

Nov 01 20:16:37 <EML> Ringworld has a starseed lure attracting the Outsiders there.

Nov 01 20:16:43 <Lensman> Odd? No, not really. I think it's said "The Outsiders value the answer to personal questions rather highly." Or something like that. Who knows what they do or don't regard as a "personal" question? They're very alien, after all!

Nov 01 20:17:22 <Lensman> Ramrobots use ramscoops. Where's the contradiction?

Nov 01 20:17:59 <Dan> "What is your name?" "Bob." What is your favorite color?" "That information will cost you one trillion stars..."

Nov 01 20:18:09 <EML> Starseed lure or sighting a ramsccop? THose are two entirely different attractors.

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Nov 01 20:18:38 <Lensman> "[...] following Interstellar Ramscoop Robot #144." AGFE p. 254 (last page).

Nov 01 20:19:46 <EML> Lens, you quote Gift. But Ringworld has an entirely different excplanation: starseed lure. THat's the difference I'm citing.

Nov 01 20:21:10 <Lensman> In AGFE the Outsider ship *changed* its course to follow the ramrobot. Without checking Ringworld, the most likely interpretation is that the starseed lure was used to attract the Outsiders to a different star, but one which was projected to cause the Outsider ship to cross the path of a Ramrobot.

Nov 01 20:22:15 <Lensman> I can't be sure this is fully compatible with Ringworld, but off the top of my head this seems the most likely explanation.

Nov 01 20:22:24 <EML> Huh?

Nov 01 20:23:40 <Lensman> Where was the Outsider ship headed *before* it changed course to follow the ramrobot? Presumably, it was headed to whatever star the starseed lure was used to attract them to.

Nov 01 20:24:40 <Dan> Lens, why do you assume that that particular Outsider ship was following a Starseed that was being lured?

Nov 01 20:25:06 <Dan> I don't follow your logic, there.

Nov 01 20:25:06 <EML> If the Puppeteers wanted to meddle (and they did), I see no reason for them to hope the Outsiders they diverted would happen to spot a ramscoop.

Nov 01 20:26:01 <Dan> Is that another spoiler, Lens?

Nov 01 20:26:20 <EML> I'm going to settle for saying Juggler hews closely to Ringworld on this point, rather than to the earlier AGFE.

Nov 01 20:26:28 <Lensman> Dan: No, I'm only talking AGFE and /Ringworld/.

Nov 01 20:26:44 <Dan> OK, I just didn't follow your reasoning.

Nov 01 20:27:40 <Lensman> Okay, let me be more specific: The Puppeteers used their starseed lure on the star of a human colony world. The Outsider ship was headed for that star when it crossed the path of the ramrobot, and was attracted to a *closer* Human colony.

Nov 01 20:27:43 <Dan> I'm guessing that if the Puppeteers wanted the Outsiders to go to We Made It, then they'd hedge their bets and put a starseed lure near We Made It.

Nov 01 20:28:04 <Dan> Oh, OK.

Nov 01 20:28:36 <EML> Guess where you'll find out more about starseed lures :-)

Nov 01 20:28:48 <Dan> The next unpublish book?

Nov 01 20:28:52 <Dan> LOL!

Nov 01 20:28:58 <Lensman> But I don't think that's necessary. The Puppeteers knew where the Outsider ship was, they knew it's cruising speed, they knew the path and cruising speed of the ramrobot. Why wouldn't it be perfectly predictible that the Outsider ship would spot the ramrobot's fusion flame and move to establish contact with a new customer?

Nov 01 20:29:42 <Jim> Lensman, the accounts in AGFE and Ringworld contradict themselves. Accept it.

Nov 01 20:30:03 <Lensman> Jim: I don't think you can demonstrate that.

Nov 01 20:30:36 <EML> I'm about to call it a night. See y'all next month (sooner if you join the Lerner mailing list :-) )

Nov 01 20:31:07 <Jim> Seeya Ed

Nov 01 20:31:49 <Lensman> In Ringworld, Louis and Speaker jump to the conclusion that the Puppeteers used a starseed lure to bring the Outsiders to We Made It. Nessus confirms the Puppeteers did interfere in the war. No where does it say "Puppeteers used a starseed lure to bring Outsiders to We Made It."

Nov 01 20:32:12 <Lensman> Bye Ed! Thanks for spending time with us.

Nov 01 20:33:00 <EML> As always, it's been fun. ttfn.

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Nov 01 20:34:40 <Lensman> I always looked at the revelation in /Ringworld/ as a "secret history of Known Space" revelation, just as Ed is describing JOW as a "secret history of Known Space" revelation.

Nov 01 20:35:05 <Dan> Hmmm... Lots of high calorie food for thought.

Nov 01 20:36:07 <Lensman> I don't understand where you think the contradition lies. Is it because you think Ringworld states the Puppeteers used the starseed on the sun of We Made It?

Nov 01 20:36:07 <Jim> Was the account in AGFE given by the author (author as God mode) or did a human character give the account?

Nov 01 20:38:35 <Lensman> AGFE was God mode. Completely divorced from anything in the rest of the novel. It's slightly biased in the direction of "internal dialog" from the Outsider POV. It absolutely cannot be considered mere speculation by a character. So that's why I personally consider it definitive, whereas the alternate view of Outsiders at the end of JOW is speculation on the part of one of the charecters. Ed is not happy with the fact I don't consider it definitive

Nov 01 20:39:00 <Jim> The accounts may not be in formal contradiction, but AGFE describes it as a random happenstance and Ringworld describes it as a deliberate meddling.

Nov 01 20:39:38 <Lensman> That is, Ed is not happy with my view that AGFE has the true facts and that what's in JOW is misinterpretation on the part of a character.

Nov 01 20:40:22 <Jim> Ed (and I) are of the opinion that Known Space should be read as one reads the Koran. New revelations trump old revelations.

Nov 01 20:40:44 <NickE> wups. Sorry, missed out a lot of that

Nov 01 20:40:51 <Lensman> Ed said something about AGFE being 40 years old. Well, so it is. And I don't personally see that it matters one whit. IMO God's narrative trumps character's specualation, every time.

Nov 01 20:41:08 <NickE> Gotta go whooosh

Nov 01 20:41:17 <NickE> well, sleep anyway

Nov 01 20:41:50 <NickE> v shiny chat. Thanks all

Nov 01 20:42:05 <NickE> nite

Nov 01 20:42:14 <Dan> Night!

Nov 01 20:42:23 <Jim> Seeya NickE

Nov 01 20:43:14 <NickE> zyi djin

Nov 01 20:43:20 <Lensman> I prefer an explanation that encompasses all stories as far as possible. I can encompass both AGFE and JOW by assuming the character in JOW is *wrong*. If a story in the future contains a "God" reference confirming the character's speculation, then I'll have to adjust my "visualization of the Cosmic All" of Known Space.

Nov 01 20:43:32 <NickE> <Chinese for bye bye :-)>

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Nov 01 20:45:03 <Dan> OK, going to sew some more whilst watching the screen.

Nov 01 20:46:16 <Dan> Damn good chat tonight, BTW.

Nov 01 20:46:59 <Jim> Tonight? It is only 8:42 pm in the East. Most of the chat took place in the afternoon.

Nov 01 20:47:48 <Jim> Dan, where are you at?

Nov 01 20:47:53 <Dan> Well, if you want to be picky, it took place in my personal morning - since I didn't get out of bed until local noon. LOL!

Nov 01 20:48:07 <Dan> Southeastern US, near Atlanta.

Nov 01 20:48:28 <Dan> 8:44 PM here and now.

Nov 01 20:49:25 <Dan> I just noticed that it was dark outside, and so said "tonight" in that sentence. :)

Nov 01 20:49:59 <Jim> OK, it is dark here also. I did not get out of bed until about 2 pm.

Nov 01 20:53:13 <Jim> WCF 1:5 We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture. And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable exce

Nov 01 20:53:14 <Jim> llencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.

Nov 01 20:53:31 <Jim> WCF refers to the Bible - not fictional works.

Nov 01 20:54:35 <Jim> Fiction does not have the "consent of all the parts" that religious work of literature are said to have.

Nov 01 20:55:18 * Jim had enough for one evening.

Nov 01 20:55:21 <Jim> bye

Nov 01 20:55:29 * Jim (~chatzilla@72.169.212.XX) has left #knownspace

Nov 01 20:55:30 <Dan> See you later, Jim.

Nov 01 20:57:53 <Lensman> From the "Fleet of Worlds" chat:

Nov 01 20:57:57 <Lensman> Nov 10 15:54:21 <EML> Authors should tell the truth when speaking in omnisicent POV. When speaking in character POV, the character's honesty (or lack thereof) plays a role.

Nov 01 20:58:19 <Lensman> Nov 10 15:51:43 <Larry> A reader must usually assume that the authors, at least, always tell the truth. (Barring Agatha Christie.)

Nov 01 20:59:05 <Dan> "Murder of Rodger Ackroid" or some such spelling...

Nov 01 21:00:30 <Lensman> So there's my rationale for giving more weight to the "Author as God" info than the "Something a character said" info.

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Nov 01 21:01:19 <Dan> Hiya, Dennis.

Nov 01 21:01:47 <dennis_nedry> hi dan

Nov 01 21:01:51 <dennis_nedry> hi lensman...

Nov 01 21:02:09 <Lensman> Well, Christie did do everything she possibly could, at one time or another, to fool the reader. Including, in one book, having the detective turn out to be the murderer!

Nov 01 21:02:40 <Lensman> Hi Dennis!

Nov 01 21:02:48 <dennis_nedry> hey lensman.

Nov 01 21:04:26 * dennis_nedry is in Phoenix Arizona

Nov 01 21:04:30 <dennis_nedry> damn things are expensive

Nov 01 21:06:17 <Dan> Which damn things?

Nov 01 21:06:24 <dennis_nedry> food

Nov 01 21:06:50 <dennis_nedry> things are more expensive. food here (taking into account the exchange rate) is way more expensive than in the UK

Nov 01 21:07:01 <Dan> Ah, here food is cheap, it's wives that are expensive. LOL!

Nov 01 21:07:04 <dennis_nedry> i was shocked. I was here three years ago, and it wasn't like that

Nov 01 21:07:54 <dennis_nedry> bread... i mean, jesus... bread for £3.00 a loaf?????

Nov 01 21:08:03 <dennis_nedry> i can get a loaf of bread for 45 pence

Nov 01 21:08:09 <dennis_nedry> that's just fucking crazy

Nov 01 21:08:26 <dennis_nedry> not three £ three $

Nov 01 21:10:23 <Lensman> I too was stunned at the high price of bread when I started buying it regularly. Fortunately I do most of my grocery shopping at Wal-Mart, and their bakery sells 16 oz loaves of Italian bread (my preference). Recently that price has jumped from $1 to $1.50, though.

Nov 01 21:10:52 <dennis_nedry> I can make bread. I'd be making it rather then paying that.

Nov 01 21:12:29 <dennis_nedry> it was $3.00 for two loaves. This can't just be down to the price of gas. (which is what they told me in Fry's when I asked them...)

Nov 01 21:13:28 <Lensman> That is indeed why the price of food staples has jumped so much. Consider how many times wheat has to be transported before it winds up as bread in your grocery store.

Nov 01 21:13:59 <dennis_nedry> i guess. maybe it didn't go up as much in the UK because the price of gas was already nuts

Nov 01 21:14:15 <dennis_nedry> I know it is costing me *twice* what it cost last year to heat my home.

Nov 01 21:14:20 <dennis_nedry> so it's extra sweater time

Nov 01 21:15:05 <Lensman> 1. Harvested by combine 2. Taken by grain truck to silo 3. taken by rail to flour mill 4. taken by truck? to bakery 5. taken to distribution center 6. taken to grocery store

Nov 01 21:15:24 <Lensman> The farmer gets very little of the money that you pay for a loaf of bread.

Nov 01 21:17:23 <dennis_nedry> The farmer gets almost nothing.

Nov 01 21:17:31 <Lensman> I know they say for many cheap items, packaging and distribution costs outweigh manufacturing costs. Obviously distribution costs have skyrocketed, with the price of gas doubling in a few years... and I think I've read diesel has gone up even more?

Nov 01 21:18:30 <dennis_nedry> Hmmm. it doesn't explain how it is cheaper in the UK. All those costs should be higher there. I think some folks are profiteering...

Nov 01 21:19:36 <Lensman> Average transportation distances are going to be a lot farther in the USA than in the British Isles. That may be part of it, I dunno.

Nov 01 21:20:38 <dennis_nedry> true. but the UK doesn't have the land area to grow enough. if there was embargo folks would starve

Nov 01 21:21:35 <dennis_nedry> lensman -> you're not answering PMs... so I'll say it here. I'm sorry I was a jerk to you on the mailing list. I'm trying to think of what I should say at my mother's funeral tomorow. it's been a hard day

Nov 01 21:21:40 <Lensman> Transport by rail shouldn't cost very much more in the USA, but unfortunately much or most of our freight hauling is done by trucks. I keep hoping with the price of gas shooting up, this will give a shot in the arm to the railroads. But I see no sign of that happening.

Nov 01 21:22:08 <dennis_nedry> that would be good. rail would be much more efficient.

Nov 01 21:23:38 <Lensman> Dennis: Hey man, you deserve a break if you mother passed away. Sorry, I probably don't pay enough attention to who I'm responding to. I tend to respond to a post without thinking too much about who sent it.

Nov 01 21:23:51 <Lensman> So I probably owe you an apology too.

Nov 01 21:24:35 <dennis_nedry> no problem... :-)

Nov 01 21:25:37 <dennis_nedry> where is everyone? has the time difference made me really late for the chat?

Nov 01 21:25:42 <dennis_nedry> or am i early?

Nov 01 21:27:13 <Dan> You're late, I'm afraid.

Nov 01 21:27:34 <dennis_nedry> bummer. I'm used to turning up late my time to be on time from england.

Nov 01 21:27:35 <Dan> Larry and Ed Lerner have both been, chatted, and gone.

Nov 01 21:27:35 <dennis_nedry> oh well...

Nov 01 21:27:46 <Lensman> Um, I'm afraid I don't know what time the late chat is supposed to start, but we've had some andipodians here for some time.

Nov 01 21:27:53 <dennis_nedry> i was going to ask larry about this book.

Nov 01 21:28:21 <Dan> Which book?

Nov 01 21:28:24 <dennis_nedry> i'll hang out for as long as I can.

Nov 01 21:28:28 <Lensman> Larry is usually here around 1 PM USA Pacific time. Today it was about 1:40

Nov 01 21:29:36 <dennis_nedry> ah.

Nov 01 21:30:31 <dennis_nedry> the book is some sort of concordance. The Larry Niven Companion

Nov 01 21:31:34 <Lensman> Oh! Darn I wish I has asked about that. Yah Larry gave us a "heads up" about that and then we heard nothing after that.

Nov 01 21:31:36 <dennis_nedry> larry has sent us a message about it, telling us the guy doing it was the real deal, and woulc contact us, but I haven't heard from them

Nov 01 21:40:40 <Lensman> "The Arabs were sitting around the oasis, eating their dates..."

Nov 01 21:46:32 <Dan> LOL!

Nov 01 21:47:39 <Lensman> Do you know who Bob Tucker or Wilson Tucker was?

Nov 01 21:55:45 <Dan> Almost finished with the belt's shoulder strap! I just have to punch some holes in it for the buckle to fasten.

Nov 01 21:55:57 <Dan> Oops!

Nov 01 21:56:24 <Dan> I forgot that I still have to sew the front-piece that holds the buckle.

Nov 01 21:56:29 <Dan> LOL!

Nov 01 22:04:34 <Lensman> This is for your Air Pirate costume?

Nov 01 22:05:12 <Dan> Pirate-catcher. My character is a lawman.

Nov 01 22:05:17 <Dan> :)

Nov 01 22:05:48 <Dan> OK, 10 PM, time for Graham Norton. BBL...

Nov 01 22:07:58 <Lensman> "Lawman"? Hey, you typo'ed a couple of letters there... :D

Nov 01 22:08:42 <Lensman> Oops, that doesn't quite work does it? "Lensman" has one more letter.

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