Chat Log: November 4th 2006

[08:50] * Topic is 'Welcome to #knownspace!! The chat room for Larry Niven.'

[08:50] * Set by SeanS on Tue Oct 17 16:29:44

[08:50] * Sean- has joined #knownspace

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[09:27] <Nesssus> I'm six hours early for the chat. Who's awake?

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[10:41] <Nesssus> Welcome back Eddy

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[12:42] <Nesssus> Hi frGeek

[12:43] <frGeek> Hi Just checking up

[13:06] * NickE has joined #knownspace

[13:06] <NickE> Ni Hao folks

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[13:07] <Nesssus> Hi Nick

[13:07] <Nesssus> Hi Hank

[13:07] <NickE> Hi Sean, Chris, Phil, Eddy, Mel and Hankster

[13:07] <Nesssus> Is Carol coming to the chat do you know?

[13:07] <hankster> HI guys, It's 2am here in Western Aus.

[13:07] <Nesssus> wow that's dedicatoin

[13:08] <NickE> Bit of a night owl Wayne?

[13:08] <hankster> not really, just got woken up by the cat and thought I'd see how the chat wsa going.

[13:08] <NickE> Not sure about Carol, she's often busy around this time but will usually put in at least a brief appearance

[13:09] <NickE> Well, bit early (esp for you!) yet

[13:09] <hankster> yeah that;s the reason don't get to most of the chats

[13:09] <NickE> Mind you, I was up till 3am with the service for Peggy

[13:09] <NickE> Shame

[13:10] <hankster> yes I was sorry that I missed that.

[13:10] <Nesssus> Just going to have something to eat now, I'll be back later

[13:10] <NickE> It was worth it though

[13:11] <NickE> Check out the log on the website, it was quite moving and Frank knew a lot of folks wanted to make it but couldnt

[13:11] <hankster> Raises a point though, does Internet chatting change the mourning process?

[13:11] <NickE> Not sure, but I think it can help being able to chat

[13:11] <hankster> I notice it when I came into the chat. Will look at it later.

[13:12] <hankster> One of the functions of the wake in the past was to assist in creating positive memories of the departed.

[13:12] <NickE> Dan and another guy, Bill I think went through the same loss and both said it helped to have something totally unconnected with the grief

[13:13] <NickE> I think that the online service managed to serve that purpose at least in part

[13:13] <NickE> Frank is still posting regularly, so I hope it is helping him in some small way

[13:14] <hankster> Yes my understanding is that he is going through a very stressful time with not only the loss of Peggy but having to move as well?

[13:15] <NickE> Yeah, when the universe decides to dump on you, sometimes it doesnt mess about

[13:16] <NickE> He's not in the best health himself of course which doesn't make it any easier

[13:16] <hankster> Yes somethimes life is hard, but it beats the alternative ;)

[13:16] <NickE> But I'm relieved to see the posts still flying :-)

[13:16] <NickE> Agreed

[13:17] <NickE> Going to be unbelievably British and talk about the weather now :-)

[13:17] <NickE> Mel, how's it down in St Ives?

[13:18] <NickE> Guess WA must be fairly warm, Autumn has finally got going here with frosts and leaves turning at last

[13:19] <hankster> Was 30 celcius today, but we had a thunderstorm and the odd rain shower.

[13:19] <NickE> Had to break out the heated grips on the motorbike for the first time this week

[13:20] <hankster> At least I've never quite needed that for the bicycle.

[13:20] <NickE> Warm indeed, we hit that and above this summer, they reckon it's the warmest on record for the UK

[13:20] <NickE> :-)

[13:21] <NickE> Well, I ride all year round, so it's kind of essential

[13:21] <hankster> 30 is nothing, just a pleasant spring day. when it hits 38 and above for 20 days straight is when it is warm.

[13:21] <NickE> Ouch!

[13:22] <hankster> predictions are for a long hot summer. lots of wild bush fires.

[13:22] <NickE> I'm not so good in that sort of heat

[13:22] <NickE> Ya, that must be a worry sometimes

[13:23] <hankster> at least it is a dry heat. off to Brisbane next week with the wife for the week (kids are staying home with their grandparents :)

[13:23] <NickE> The fireworks have started going off, the dogs hate it and I swear they get louder every year. Be the same tommorow night too

[13:24] <hankster> dont' notice the heat, spend most of the day in ari conditioned office and then in the air conditioned house.

[13:25] <hankster> What are the fireworks for? We have the local Dog track nearby that has fireworks at the end of the racing every week:)

[13:25] <NickE> Our lab at least is air conditioned

[13:26] <NickE> Nov 5th... odd that we should celebrate the *failure* to blow up Parliament :-)

[13:27] <hankster> Of course Guy Fawkes, Doh!

[13:27] <NickE> Y

[13:28] <hankster> Yes we stopped celebrating that years ago when I was a kid. I guess because of all the injuries due to fireworks and the bush fires they started.

[13:28] <NickE> Figures

[13:29] <hankster> Still it is a good way to remind parliament that they are but the "servants of the people" ;)

[13:31] <NickE> There was a show last year where they recreated what it would have been like if the plot had succeeded...BIG bang, v spectacular

[13:32] <hankster> Yes remember the talk about it at the time, but missed the show. Wasn't there some talk that it may not have killed all the people that Guy Fawkes nd co wanted to get rid of?

[13:34] <NickE> Probably, that the trouble with explosives, too damn indiscriminate, the ****s that use them never seem to be bothered by that though :-(

[13:36] <NickE> BRB

[13:38] <NickE> back

[13:39] <NickE> damn. New CD I bought is cutting out and got a hideous background click. 1st time thats ever happened

[13:41] <NickE> Vinyl on the other hand.. :-)

[13:41] <NickE> (got 200+ vinyl albums)

[13:43] <NickE> Not used to bad pressings of cds (know it happens though)

[13:43] <hankster> I've got a heap of vinyl I can't play as I need to get a turntable. Any suggestions for a half way decent unit?

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[13:44] <NickE> wtf?

[13:44] <hankster> the joys of DRM, sure it hasn't installed a root kit on your machine;)

[13:45] <NickE> Hmm gona do some checking, the othe album I bought is doing it to, hope it's not the drive

[13:46] <hankster> TO get the topic back to Knownspace, would the means of mourning influence the availibility of organs for transplant?

[13:46] <NickE> Ripping it to mp3 and see if it still does it

[13:47] <NickE> Hmm. i guess attitudes would have to change (by law during that era of KS!)

[13:48] <NickE> Not sure anyone would have a choice, suspect that on death, you'd only get to cremate/bury whatever wasn't usable?

[13:48] <hankster> I know there are some religions that expressly forbid the examination of the body by surgical means afer death

[13:49] <NickE> Aye, plus a lot of folks wouldn't like it anyway

[13:49] <hankster> The only unusable part would be the brain?

[13:50] <NickE> Most likely. In fact I recall adescription of the process in one of the stories and indeed the brain is flash burned for later burial

[13:50] <hankster> To be honest both my wife an I are down as organ donars, we figure what do we need it for when we are dead.

[13:51] <NickE> As are we both

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[13:51] <hankster> Given how many people are on Earth at the time, would burial or even disposal of the ashes into the environment be acceptable?

[13:52] <NickE> OK. Seems every time I eject a CD I get booted!

[13:52] <hankster> R U using the java client?

[13:53] <NickE> Disposal of ashes shouldnt be a prob, readily biodegradable. Just stick Granpaw in with the tomato compost :-)

[13:53] <NickE> Yes, that a known glitch?

[13:54] <NickE> I've found it very usable for quite a while without probs

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[13:55] <NickE> wups

[13:55] <NickE> Java probs?

[13:55] <hankster> hit a function key that dropped me out

[13:55] <NickE> ah

[13:56] <hankster> speaking of guyfawkes, here is the Wikipedia article

[13:57] <hankster> the guys editing that really liked V

[13:58] <NickE> Well yes :-)

[13:59] <NickE> Most folks only know the 1st 2 lines of the rhyme though

[13:59] <hankster> getting back to earlier discussion, yes I guess placing grandad joe in the compost would work, but there would be restrictions of dumping his ashes into the ocean

[14:01] <NickE> possibly. Course, with a >10 billion pop. you coudl use the ashes to compact and make a new landmass :-)

[14:01] <NickE> Land of teh Dead

[14:03] <hankster> dumping that much solid matter in the ocean would affect water levels around the world. One way of fighting a war againt the Netherlands or Micronesia

[14:03] <NickE> :-) Yep them damn Dutch :-)

[14:04] <NickE> Then again, there's a market there for "Granpaws Miracle reclamation Bricks"

[14:05] <hankster> I guess that would be nice, buiding your house on your ancestors. :) would take many generations to build a house tho:)

[14:06] <NickE> There's the germ of a story there... "When I say this is the house of my ancestors, I mean it litereally...."

[14:07] <hankster> One thing I love about the KS stories is that does not appear to be a lot of waiting around, mind you doesn't make for exciting reading if you include all the waiting.

[14:08] <NickE> True. Larry's very good at the concise neat story, no messing about to get to the neat ideas

[14:08] <NickE> Mostly

[14:09] <hankster> sometimes a little dramatic waiting adds to the story (build the dramatic tension)

[14:10] <NickE> used sensibly of course, I've read books that really overdid it and you got so fed up of waiting that the moment when it comes is diminished

[14:11] <hankster> I always love the way he could just drop a new technology in with a little note, as part of the story, rather than introducing it and explaining it all, he leaves it to the reader's imagination to

[14:11] <NickE> oh yeah

[14:11] <hankster> put a physical form to the item

[14:11] <NickE> way ahead of you :-)

[14:12] <NickE> Wayne, I gotta go eat, but will be back in 20-30 mins, Won't be offended if you go back to bed :-)

[14:13] <hankster> It's been great talking but I'm going to crawl into bed

[14:13] * NickE is now known as Nick

[14:13] <hankster> cu l8tr

[14:13] <Nick> Later

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[14:33] <Nick> back

[14:33] <Nesssus> so am i

[14:33] * Nick is now known as NickE

[14:33] <NickE> Hows it going Mel

[14:34] <NickE> Not seen you in the chat for a while

[14:34] <Nesssus> OK Nick

[14:34] <Nesssus> I'm usually busy at weekends

[14:35] <NickE> Work or play?

[14:35] <Nesssus> Play ;-)

[14:35] <NickE> Glad to hear it :-)

[14:35] <Nesssus> I'm only at home tonight because I'm waiting for the freezer to defrost itself

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[14:35] <NickE> Lioke you do

[14:36] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> dudes

[14:36] <Nesssus> turned it off at 9:00 am and there's still ice in it now

[14:36] <Nesssus> hi Nick Danger

[14:36] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> hi nesssus

[14:36] <NickE> Hey t'other Nick

[14:36] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> hi nick

[14:36] * Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye walks out of the fog, and into the smog.

[14:37] <Nesssus> fog to smog

[14:37] <NickE> got plenty of aunumnal mists up our way

[14:38] <NickE> atumnal

[14:38] <NickE> autumnal

[14:38] <NickE> typing up to usual standard

[14:38] <Nesssus> it's started getting cold here too now

[14:39] <NickE> Really notice it in the early morning this week

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[14:39] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> oh ya, it was nice and warm, and now it's bloody freezing

[14:39] <NickE> Hey Frank

[14:39] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> but it's grim up north

[14:40] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> frank, the frankster, frankorama, the frankinator!

[14:40] <Harry_Redd> Hi All.

[14:40] <NickE> Ah, forgot that was you Mark :-)

[14:41] <Harry_Redd> --

[14:41] <Nesssus> Hiya Frank

[14:41] <NickE> How ya doing Frank, good to see you

[14:41] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> heh. I need to quit changing my alias

[14:41] <NickE> :-)

[14:42] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> i'm supposed to be working on these changes Mr. Lambert made... plus I need to go get some fireworks

[14:42] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> it being the 5th of November and all

[14:42] <NickE> Had a spate of 'em earlier

[14:42] <Harry_Redd> Trying to get some coffee in me.

[14:42] <NickE> Yeah, the dogs hate it

[14:42] <Harry_Redd> Say Happy Birthday.

[14:42] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> listening to Bowling for Soup. Highly recommended

[14:42] <NickE> Work that caffeine Frank

[14:43] * Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye screams "HAPPY BIRTHDAY"

[14:43] <Harry_Redd> Thank you.

[14:43] <NickE> who's that by/

[14:43] <Nesssus> Happy Birthday Frank!

[14:43] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> that's the name of the band.

[14:43] <NickE> Whoa, Happy BD Frank

[14:43] <NickE> <D'oh!>

[14:43] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> "You're bitch but I love you anyway... you can't sing, but you still put me to sleep..."

[14:43] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> and such lyrics

[14:44] <NickE> genre?

[14:44] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> kind of like slightly lighter version of Offspring, but funnier

[14:44] <NickE> Offspring ar pretty good

[14:44] <Harry_Redd> I've been seeing ads for a group called Trans Siberian Band. In the ads they sound good, but I don't know anyone who's actually heard them.

[14:45] <NickE> playing Duke by Genesis, HMV had it for a fiver, and I've been meaning to pick up a copy fpr ages

[14:45] <NickE> Not heard of 'em either

[14:45] <NickE> Also go the 1st evanescence album for another fiver

[14:46] <NickE> What's the sort of sound Frank?

[14:47] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> they did a cover of Summer of 69, that brian adams song about what he was doing when he was 3

[14:47] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> as he isn't much older than i am

[14:47] <Harry_Redd> Anyway, I got The book off yesterday. Postal Express. It should be in Monday. I insured it for $300 so if anything happens, It will pay for a nes copy and some postage.

[14:47] <NickE> I was 5 in 69

[14:48] <Harry_Redd> The sound is kinda Mannheime Steamroller on Stiroids.

[14:48] <NickE> Excellent news Frank. glad to see that this one is so far making good progress

[14:48] <NickE> Right. None the wiser :-)

[14:48] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> Really, I was born in 69

[14:49] <Harry_Redd> I know it would be a lot of work, but there should be a singal controler that directs the mailing.

[14:49] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> I'd like to sign the book, but I am afriad of what I am like... (forgetting to do things, forward books on to the next person... that sort of thing...)

[14:49] <NickE> I can remember the moon landing clearly

[14:49] <Harry_Redd> So can I ;-)

[14:49] <Nesssus> I was minus two in '69

[14:50] <NickE> Well, I'd volunteer to organise the UK leg when it gets here

[14:50] <NickE> :-)

[14:50] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> Was it buzz aldrin or neil armstrong that punched out the moon landing hoax dude? that was great.

[14:50] <Harry_Redd> Talk to cat about it.

[14:50] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> to get beat up by a 70 year old dude... on camera. priceless

[14:50] <NickE> Really, cool

[14:51] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> "Second is right after first, Homer"

[14:51] <Harry_Redd> You might get the Brits and other Europeans to send you their names and contact info so you can organize it.

[14:51] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> maybe we could all meet up in Birmingham or somewhere in the middle

[14:52] <Harry_Redd> Yupper. It's sad when a man like BNuzz looses his punch.

[14:52] <NickE> Might just do that. Have to look at the posting method though, not sure I trust Royal Mail

[14:52] <NickE> That would be cool, have a UK list shindig

[14:52] <Harry_Redd> That seems tro ocall for a central meeting then Nick.

[14:52] <NickE> <waht have i let myself in for>

[14:53] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> i volunteer my house, but I'm up north here near blackburn

[14:53] <Harry_Redd> Most likely, a party Nick. ;-)

[14:53] <NickE> That would make sense, get as many as possible to sign it in one shot so we don't have to have it in the postal system more than absolutely necessary

[14:54] <Harry_Redd> How about you Nessus?

[14:54] <NickE> And Mell is waaaay down south in Cornwall

[14:54] <NickE> :-)

[14:54] <Nesssus> the ass end of nowhere

[14:54] <NickE> Pretty though

[14:54] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> ya. we need to find a pub inbetween

[14:54] <Nesssus> true

[14:55] <Harry_Redd> Hmmm, Well, you guys sort it out.

[14:55] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> I want to move to Cornwall, but there is no work for me there

[14:55] <Nesssus> it's bloody expensive to live here too

[14:55] <Harry_Redd> I think I'll make another cup of coffee.

[14:55] <NickE> Banbury is fairly central, so there's a posibilty

[14:55] <Nesssus> when was you last down, Nick

[14:55] <NickE> Oxfordshire is bloody dear too

[14:56] <NickE> Last year, but didn't know your addy, otherwise might have dropped in for a cuppa :-)

[14:56] <Nesssus> where did you stay?

[14:56] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> I can do Banbury I think. Where is it?

[14:56] <Harry_Redd> The sins of Political Correctness. Where the Extream Left Liberals have control, everything gets E*X*P*S*E*N*S*I*V*E!

[14:56] <NickE> We were over the other side at Looe

[14:57] <Nesssus> Never been there

[14:57] <NickE> about an hour south of Birmingham, half an hour north of Oxford

[14:57] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> the extreme left here doesn't have control. the extreme left are communists here

[14:58] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> I can do that.

[14:58] <NickE> There are a few listers in the south, Tim Atkinson, Alex Aplin, and Dave Gordon is in London

[14:59] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> I'm going to go to the store and get Jayne some wine... and maybe a few explosives

[14:59] <NickE> Have to do a shout out on the list to test the water so we're ready for the book when it gets here, whenever that is

[15:00] <Nesssus> Banbury's just about as Central as you can get

[15:00] <NickE> Catch you in a bit then

[15:00] <NickE> Yep, it's certainly about as far from the sea in any direction as is possible on this island

[15:02] <NickE> brb

[15:03] <Harry_Redd> Nick, compaired to what I've seen reported like Spy Cameras and the like, Communists look like they are middle of the road conservatives!

[15:04] <Nesssus> True, there's CCTV everywhere

[15:05] <NickE> It IS getting ridiculous

[15:05] <NickE> It's the most intrusive govt I can remember, and they want to do it more!

[15:06] <Harry_Redd> Nobody seems to have learned the lesson George Orwell taugh Nick.

[15:06] <NickE> Aye :-(

[15:06] <Harry_Redd> Yeah, and it LABOR too!

[15:07] <NickE> I'm increasingly of the opinion of Lazarus Long..."when a planet gets crowded enough for ID cards, it's time to leave!"

[15:07] <Nesssus> I'm glad that at some point I will be leaving this country for good

[15:07] <NickE> You emigrating? I've thought about it

[15:07] <Nesssus> In fact, I'm surprised that I'm still here

[15:08] <NickE> not so easy now with 4 kids, would have done it years ago if the opp had presented itself

[15:09] <NickE> Don't want to. I like living here, but it's getting kinad crazy

[15:09] <Harry_Redd> You have 2 choices. Leave or fight. However, if you just leave, the very things you are leaving will follow you.

[15:09] <Harry_Redd> Bah! HUMBUG. I need more coffee.

[15:09] <NickE> Probably true. Fight it is then!

[15:10] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> i don't like the cameras

[15:10] <Nesssus> I see a string of CCTV cameras floating across the atlantic

[15:10] <Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye> besides, what's the point. the criminal justice system in the UK is so broken, that what does it matter if they catch you?

[15:10] <NickE> Hate the bloody GATSOs esp. Not been caught yet, but sure it is only matter of time

[15:11] <NickE> Aye, every day you read stuff and you wonder what insane planet you've landed on

[15:11] <Harry_Redd> No Need. Just the export of "EXPERTS" To the Ivy League Schools Nessus. We can build our own Camers... And I cauight note that Most Brit Passenger Aircraft are Already wired.

[15:12] <Nesssus> I think the whole thing about global warming and the fate of the planet is a lot worse than we've been led to believe

[15:12] <Harry_Redd> Well, You could convert to Islam and be safe from the couirts. :-[

[15:12] <Harry_Redd> I think it's a hook to hang repression from.

[15:13] <Harry_Redd> BRB

[15:13] <NickE> -k-

[15:14] * Larry has joined #knownspace

[15:14] <Larry> Hello!

[15:14] <NickE> Hey Larry!

[15:15] <NickE> Frank is just getting some coffee

[15:15] <Larry> I've got stomach flu. How are y'all?

[15:15] <NickE> Bummer, hope it passes (sorry!) soon. 'S no fun, I had it earlier this year

[15:16] <Nesssus> Hello Larry

[15:16] <NickE> ah, just bitching about CCTV intrusion an stuff

[15:16] <Nesssus> copseyes (;-))

[15:16] <Harry_Redd> Hi Larry.

[15:17] <Harry_Redd> What I find interesting is that Americans seem to Mourn the passing of what was British Culture more than the Brits do.

[15:17] <NickE> yep, where's that character from Cloak of Anarchy when you need him?

[15:17] <Larry> I'm sticking with Imodium. Marilyn offered me some prescription of hers, but I told her that was a crap shoot.

[15:17] <NickE> :-)

[15:17] <Harry_Redd> Right Here Nick!

[15:17] <NickE> Imodium should do it

[15:18] <Larry> O

[15:18] <Nesssus> What did you eat?

[15:18] <Harry_Redd> Larry, might I suggest you get some Gator-Aid? keep your electrolytes up.

[15:18] <NickE> sensible

[15:19] <Larry> I'm told old Brit language survives better here than there, too. Shakespearian old.

[15:19] <NickE> Yes, read something about that a while back, esp in parts of the east I believe

[15:19] <Larry> Gatorade: good plan. What I ate: nothing odd. General malaise makes it flue.

[15:20] * Treehugger has joined #knownspace

[15:20] <Nesssus> Hi Treehugger

[15:20] <Harry_Redd> Getting your Electrolytes might help there too Larry.

[15:20] <Treehugger> Hi all

[15:20] <NickE> We complain about Americanisms creeping into the language, but it's prolly just OLD Englisisms coming back in :-)

[15:20] <Harry_Redd> Hi Hugg.

[15:20] <NickE> Hi George

[15:21] <Treehugger> American english is mostly a collection of stuff that crept in from other cultures. What are we talking about?

[15:22] <Harry_Redd> Well, bcak when the King's English was still growing, It made no fuss about adopting new words.

[15:22] <NickE> The worst sympoms usually don't last too long, but feeling crap afterwards can be a drag too

[15:22] <NickE> Oh sure, English is anything but a pure tongue

[15:22] <Harry_Redd> In fact, The king's english would follow otrher languages ddown dark streets, mugg them and rifle their pockets!

[15:23] <NickE> someone uses that as a sig quote on the list i believe

[15:23] <Nesssus> I'm never sure anymore what inflection I'm writing in because of Microsoft's insistence in using American english spellings

[15:23] <Harry_Redd> Oh sure, English is anything but a pure tongue The Results of Norman men at arms trying to make dates with Saxon Barmaids!

[15:23] <Treehugger> Indeed, Frank!

[15:24] <Harry_Redd> That's a quote froim H. Beam Piper by the way.

[15:25] <NickE> Isn't someone on the list familiar with proper Old English? Sure i recall some mention of them reading Beowulf in the original

[15:25] <NickE> ah

[15:25] <NickE> On topic ther almost :-)

[15:26] <Harry_Redd> Considering the Depts of this list, I'm sure that wee have someone with that skill set.

[15:26] <NickE> Love Heorot

[15:26] <NickE> :-)

[15:26] <NickE> brb

[15:27] <Harry_Redd> DEPTH!

[15:28] <NickE> That too :-)

[15:28] <Nesssus> Larry, what do you think of all the gloom and doom stories in the media at the moment about depleted fish stocks and global warming. How long do you think that we've got left?

[15:28] <Larry> The debts of this list...what do we owe to our English forebears?

[15:29] <Harry_Redd> Considerable Larry. A working Mind Set for one.

[15:29] <NickE> There's a can of worms... :-)

[15:30] <Larry> Depleted fish stocks etc.: I don't do my own research. They're predicting collapse in the 40s. I wonder if a fixed future is predictable that far. Consider a plague coming first.

[15:30] <Treehugger> "And let's not forget you pinched our language!" ---John Cleese

[15:30] <Harry_Redd> There are 2 on the way Larry.

[15:30] <Harry_Redd> And a heavy war.

[15:32] <Harry_Redd> When you consider that the oceans are 70% of the surface, I tend to suspect the figures on fish populations given. LOTS of places for fish to go where they are hard to find.

[15:32] <NickE> I think, despite all the pesemistic themes running through the media lately (and when has it been that much different?) that it is getting increasingly difficult to make even shrt term predictions with any accuracy

[15:33] <Treehugger> Predictions tend to start with, If Things Remain as They Are . . . but they never do. Things change everyday.

[15:33] <Harry_Redd> Like I said earlier Nick. I think the Global Warming (a .5% in ten years?) is a hook to hang repression on.

[15:33] <NickE> Exactly

[15:33] <NickE> That too to some extent I'm sure

[15:33] <Treehugger> The world climate has never been stable and unchanging.

[15:33] <NickE> Bingo

[15:34] <Larry> Yeah. beware of folk who want to make lots of people do things.

[15:34] <Harry_Redd> None of the members of the Media seem to realize that Climate is a dynamic System with very many factors involved and is in a continual state of flux.

[15:34] * FRED has joined #knownspace

[15:34] <NickE> Soemthing IS up, but we simply don't have enough data or accurate models to be sure exactly what is going on

[15:34] <FRED> greetings

[15:35] <NickE> Hi Fred

[15:35] <Harry_Redd> People tend to consider "Normal" as how things were like whern they were `10 years old.

[15:35] <NickE> True

[15:35] <Harry_Redd> Hi Fred!

[15:35] <FRED> hey harry

[15:35] <FRED> I entered my name as FRED SCREAMS AND LEAPS

[15:35] <FRED> but it seems to have truncated me . . .

[15:35] <Larry> Pournelle believes that we lack data. We should be plowing our money into getting more data.

[15:35] <NickE> And stuff can happen a lot faster in all sorts of areas that can have been expected within a lot of people's lifetimes

[15:35] <Larry> (Meaning global warming, of course.)

[15:36] <NickE> More data good

[15:36] <FRED> good data good

[15:36] <NickE> He's right IMO

[15:36] <FRED> we need both

[15:36] <Harry_Redd> Morfe GOOD data.

[15:36] <NickE> Well, yes

[15:36] <FRED> Hello Mr. Niven

[15:36] <FRED> and Nesssus!

[15:36] <Larry> Hello Fred.

[15:37] <FRED> should I do an obNiven gushing here, or would that embarrass you? :)

[15:37] <Treehugger> If we're doing things that damage our only world's life support system, let's find out exactly what.

[15:37] <Treehugger> Then decide if we can or should try a fix.

[15:37] <Harry_Redd> Anyone notice the tendancy to consider the death of ANY Law officer to be heroic, even when it was the law officers's one action that killed him? Right out of 1984!

[15:38] <Harry_Redd> Fix? That's like an Ant climing up an elephants ass with RAPE on it's mind!

[15:38] * Conundrummer has joined #knownspace

[15:38] <NickE> Agreed. While I think we lack data, i see no reason not to reduce waste heat/energy/Co2 on general principles

[15:38] <Harry_Redd> Hi Con. Welcome.

[15:38] <NickE> Hi

[15:38] <FRED> we used to shoot Hi Con film all the time . . .

[15:39] <Nesssus> Even if some countries do start limiting their emissions there are countries like the former soviet union who won't do the same

[15:39] <NickE> <groan>

[15:39] <Conundrummer> Hi everyone

[15:39] <Treehugger> Well, not fix as such, but back off of things we find to actually be harmful.

[15:39] <FRED> which brings you right back to 'more data'

[15:40] <NickE> yup

[15:40] <Treehugger> Right

[15:40] <Harry_Redd> China, India, Brazil Mexico, It's a LONG LIST!

[15:41] <Harry_Redd> And we don't even know if what we are doing is causing the Damage!

[15:41] <NickE> find it very arrogant of certain scientists to assume that we know everything significant...about any subject

[15:41] <Treehugger> The ice caps may well melt, but they do that. Is it our fault? Maybe. Can we stop it? No.

[15:41] <Treehugger> Agreed, Nick!

[15:41] <Treehugger> What we can do is prepare for it.

[15:41] <NickE> Aye

[15:41] <Harry_Redd> Should we stop it at all?

[15:42] <Treehugger> Can we?

[15:42] <NickE> adapting, thats what humans are good at

[15:42] <Treehugger> I think not.

[15:42] <Treehugger> We can maybe slow it down.

[15:42] <NickE> (big sunshades)

[15:42] <Treehugger> We can't stop the planet's climate from changing. That might well shut it down!

[15:42] <Larry> Buying time is very often worth doing. (Though not in politics.)

[15:43] <NickE> but that woudl mean putting money into exploiting space...and we can't have that can we :-/

[15:43] <Harry_Redd> Ecosystems tend to be persistant. They will change nomatter what factors are varied. Change too many factors and you get changes you don't weant. (Draco Tavern story there Larry?)

[15:43] <NickE> True

[15:43] <Treehugger> Very true.

[15:44] <NickE> Heck, if it gets us off our collective butts and into space, I'm for it! ;-)

[15:44] <Harry_Redd> lomebody should be selling the Greens on Moving Earth's heavy industries off Earth to Orbit or to LUNA.

[15:44] <NickE> Jerry was right on that one

[15:45] <Treehugger> As Frank said, people tend to think the way things were when they grew up is the way things are meant to be.

[15:45] <Harry_Redd> Hanging with Jerry has colored my thinking... For the better I think.

[15:45] <NickE> :-)]

[15:45] <Treehugger> The greens don't know that? The diea has been around for decades.

[15:45] <Treehugger> idea

[15:45] <Larry> HR, that's the right propaganda move. Get the industries off the Earth. Get war off too.

[15:45] <NickE> Those Step Farther Out articles sill have a lot os sense in them

[15:46] <Harry_Redd> The greens think that the polution of the atmosphere by rockets is as bad as industrial Polution.

[15:46] <NickE> mad

[15:46] <Nesssus> build a beanstalk then

[15:46] <Harry_Redd> Just like some people think Wages Slavery is equivalant to Chattle Slavery in Africa.

[15:46] <Treehugger> Oh, my mistake. Forgot they were stupid.

[15:47] <NickE> But I don't want us to have to build Michael as a matter of species survival

[15:47] <Harry_Redd> I say do it like tyhe manhattan Project built the Bomb. Try EVERYTHING!

[15:47] <NickE> Do it for the fun factor! :-)

[15:47] <NickE> Guess we're preaching to the choir here

[15:48] * SpaceCowboy has joined #knownspace

[15:48] <NickE> A beanstalk would be neat. I'd love to see C nano tubes really come into their potential

[15:48] <NickE> H Cowboy

[15:48] <NickE> hi

[15:49] <SpaceCowboy> Good afternoon, all.

[15:49] <FRED> hey space

[15:49] <FRED> or should I say 'maurice'?

[15:49] <Harry_Redd> Hi Bill.

[15:49] <NickE> :-)

[15:49] <Treehugger> They'd have to be stronger than at present. The tubes, I mean.

[15:49] <FRED> I saw The Tubes in concert

[15:50] <NickE> Sure, and longer, but the research is really at an early stage I hope

[15:50] <FRED> in a high school cafetorium

[15:50] <NickE> cool

[15:50] <Harry_Redd> NANNO Technology is really starting to take off. LOTS of uses for it.

[15:51] * Sean- has joined #knownspace

[15:51] <NickE> and plenty of irrational fears when it's reported still I'm afraid, stuill see refs to "the grey goo" idea...sheesh

[15:51] <Sean-> hi all

[15:51] <NickE> Hi Sean

[15:51] <FRED> hi Sean

[15:51] <Harry_Redd> Hi Sean.

[15:51] <FRED> or, what Nick said

[15:51] <Sean-> at a friend's, will be back down to the house shortly

[15:51] <NickE> k

[15:52] <FRED> you have a friend?

[15:52] <Harry_Redd> NAno tech means a LOT more than 'Bots.

[15:52] <FRED> what's that like?

[15:52] <Sean-> amazing isnt it ;)

[15:52] * Sean- has quit IRC (Quit: *g0ne*)

[15:52] <NickE> course it does, but out of control bots seems a prevelant idea in soem quarters

[15:53] <Harry_Redd> COnsidering how often Popular Media has been totally WRONG about thing, It's a wonder that anyone; other than retarded Media stars; believes them anymore.

[15:53] <NickE> we're nowhere near that stage yet and the materials side of things is becoming very interesting

[15:53] <NickE> true

[15:55] <NickE> quantum computing is also getting closer bit by bit (pardon the pun)

[15:55] * Nick_Danger_3rd_Eye has quit IRC (Quit: Quit)

[15:55] <SpaceCowboy> I've been hearing of some intriguing medical applications that are already being tried (very primitive form, just engineered molecules) but I'm a bit woozy and can't remember what or where.

[15:55] <Harry_Redd> So is True Optical Storage and Entanglement.

[15:55] <NickE> may never be truly practical, but I'll bet there will be useful spinoffs

[15:55] <NickE> at the very least

[15:56] <NickE> Yes, drug delivery systems are potential applications of engineered nano particles

[15:57] <Harry_Redd> And nomatter who bright the Futuire brought about by new Technology, The LUDDITES rise to pull us back into the Cesspool.

[15:57] <Harry_Redd> Did you try Gator-Aid SC?

[15:57] <SpaceCowboy> SAdly, the Luddites appear to be running the world.

[15:58] <NickE> Noisy minority I'm hoping

[15:58] <Harry_Redd> Beuaerocracy is the IDEAL career for a LUDDITE!

[15:58] <NickE> agreed

[15:58] <SpaceCowboy> No, Felix, haven't felt like leaving the house into the cold. Maybe later today.

[15:58] <FRED> obNiven -- there's a special place in hell for them

[15:58] <Harry_Redd> It gives them power without responsibility!

[15:59] <NickE> along with those who talk at the theatre? :-)

[15:59] <NickE> <Firefly ref>

[15:59] <Harry_Redd> On CELLLPHONES with Obnixious RINGTONES!

[15:59] <NickE> and Inferno of course :-)

[16:00] <NickE> Oh yes

[16:00] <SpaceCowboy> Yes: Critics are a perfect career --

[16:00] <Treehugger> Speaking of Inferno . . . anybody read Purgatorio yet?

[16:00] <NickE> Yeah Larry, what stage is that at?

[16:00] <FRED> is that out?

[16:01] <Treehugger> No, 'cause Larry hasn't written it yet!!

[16:01] <Harry_Redd> I think it's JERRY'S turn to finetune it right now.

[16:01] <Treehugger> Go on, deny it!

[16:02] <NickE> So, just how long has Purgatorio been cooking, I recall ref to it in an old Galaxy I read recently!

[16:02] <Treehugger> It's Jerry's fault. It's a fair cop.

[16:02] <Nesssus> its got to be about 5 years

[16:03] <NickE> longer

[16:03] <Treehugger> What's being worked on now, Larry? What's to look forward to?

[16:03] <Harry_Redd> Something like that, With deep scope and depth takes a LONG time to do right Nessus.

[16:04] <Treehugger> Might be hard to go back there. Inferno was written fast because you guys wanted out, right?

[16:05] <NickE> 4 months wasn't it Larry?

[16:06] <Nesssus> maybe the stomach flu has struck again

[16:06] <NickE> :-( hope not

[16:06] <Larry> I tried Gatorade, yes, thanks.

[16:07] <SpaceCowboy> I wish it were flu -- then I'd have a reason. Pinky Tener suspects something more ominous.

[16:07] <Harry_Redd> Feel a bit better Larry> When I wa sick last time A 12 oz glass popped me back into something approching focus.

[16:08] <Larry> Purgatorio looks to be almost half finished. You never know.

[16:08] <NickE> :-) we await with interest

[16:08] <FRED> and baited breath

[16:09] <SpaceCowboy> Been eating raw herring, chum?

[16:09] <NickE> :-)

[16:09] <SpaceCowboy> :)

[16:09] <FRED> just for the halibut

[16:09] <NickE> oh pluhease

[16:09] <Larry> Fleet of Worlds is finished. Juggler of Worlds is half finished. That's going to be a delicate dance.

[16:10] <NickE> Oooh sounds good

[16:10] <Harry_Redd> Oh My COD!

[16:10] <FRED> juggler of worlds?

[16:10] <Treehugger> Lord of the Dance, you.

[16:10] <NickE> Beat me to it Frank

[16:10] <SpaceCowboy> Please, you're giving me a haddock...

[16:10] <Treehugger> Scale it down, Fred!

[16:10] <NickE> <arghhh!>

[16:10] <FRED> there's something fishy about Bill. I bet he's a pisces, working for scale.

[16:11] <Treehugger> Fred's gone bye-bye, Egon.

[16:11] <SpaceCowboy> Don't I wish...

[16:11] <Harry_Redd> BTW, I saw an interview with Saloman Rustchi Last week. Larry, you and Jerry would like the man and what he has to say!

[16:11] <FRED> What I like is his wife.

[16:11] <NickE> Salmon??

[16:11] <FRED> How does a guy in hiding score the major babes of all time?

[16:11] <Harry_Redd> Him Nike.

[16:11] <NickE> sorry

[16:11] <Nesssus> What is fleet of worlds about? The Puppeteer Migration?

[16:11] <NickE> Hu yuss

[16:11] <Harry_Redd> Nicke!

[16:12] <NickE> just the tick

[16:12] * vilstef has joined #knownspace

[16:12] <SpaceCowboy> SPOON!

[16:12] <NickE> Hi Gene

[16:12] <FRED> <Nesssus> What is fleet of worlds about? - it's about 352 pages

[16:12] <Harry_Redd> I just fed my body medications and can't do a thing with it!

[16:12] <NickE> (didnt spot that opening Bill)

[16:13] <Harry_Redd> Hi Vilstef.

[16:13] <Treehugger> I don't wanna spot Bill's opening!

[16:13] <Larry> And Juggler of Worlds is about Sigmund Ausfaller.

[16:13] <FRED> cool!

[16:13] <Treehugger> Cool!

[16:13] <NickE> Oh ho

[16:13] <SpaceCowboy> Sorry ... I'm a bit scatterbrained today. (Under the weather a bit, grabbing at straws.)

[16:14] <Treehugger> I like Siggy.

[16:14] <NickE> An intriguingly annoying character :-)

[16:14] <Treehugger> Always thought there was more depth to him.

[16:14] <Harry_Redd> Siggy is a cool critter. A Peace Officer with something approching a sense of humor.

[16:14] <NickE> :-)

[16:15] <NickE> Be interesting to see more of him certainly

[16:15] <Harry_Redd> Note. Jerry must be VERY Busy. He hasn't updated CHAOS MANOR for 2 days!

[16:15] <Treehugger> And his 007 wardrobe.

[16:16] <NickE> I'm about to eject a CD, so expect to be briefly kicked off

[16:16] <FRED> lol

[16:16] <NickE> or not

[16:16] <Harry_Redd> A few builting Multi-Puropse tools make sense... Even in todays world.

[16:16] <FRED> so your EJECT button is global?

[16:17] <NickE> well it did it twice earlier

[16:17] <SpaceCowboy> Be glad it doesn't multitask with your computer chair!

[16:17] <FRED> POOF

[16:18] <SpaceCowboy> There's a phannish cartoon there... somewhere...

[16:18] <FRED> did you see mythbusters actually built an automobile ejector seat?

[16:18] <Harry_Redd> An Esc button that REALKLLY Functions!

[16:18] <NickE> ouch

[16:18] <FRED> a TAB button that serves up a frosty beverage?

[16:18] <Harry_Redd> MYTHBUSTERS tends to miss a whole lot of things.

[16:18] <SpaceCowboy> Did they break the dummy's femurs? (What's his name again ...?)

[16:19] <FRED> they had to use a different dummy; the standard one was too tall

[16:19] <FRED> head stuck right out the roof :)

[16:19] <SpaceCowboy> Oh, so you can only eject very short bad guys?

[16:19] <NickE> of course

[16:19] <FRED> they could sit in it fine

[16:20] <FRED> the dummy seemed long in the torso

[16:20] <SpaceCowboy> Then they're a lot shorter, too ...

[16:20] <FRED> their big problem was, they couldn't use a sports car

[16:20] <FRED> because the rakish windscreens come back over the passenger

[16:20] <Harry_Redd> No spinal curve in the Dummies.

[16:21] <SpaceCowboy> So they built an ejection seat and didn't build in a hatch in the roof?

[16:21] <FRED> they needed a much more upright front

[16:21] <FRED> yeah, they built a hatch. but with the standard dummy, they couldn't close the hatch

[16:21] <SpaceCowboy> Volvo!

[16:21] <vilstef> Watch your head going out. . .

[16:22] * NickE has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)

[16:22] <Harry_Redd> Please keep arems and leggs inboard when ejecting.

[16:22] <FRED> yep

[16:22] <FRED> I suspect that if you ejected a living person, you'd have a mess

[16:22] <vilstef> Maybe a separate ejection system for arms & legs

[16:23] <FRED> inside and outside the car

[16:23] * NickE has joined #knownspace

[16:24] <NickE> smeg. and that had noyhing to do with a CD

[16:24] <frGeek> Hey all

[16:24] <frGeek> hey all

[16:24] <Harry_Redd> In a car, I'd think a breakaway Top like a canopy would be optimal.

[16:24] <NickE> WWIII going off outside just now. V freaking loud!

[16:24] * frGeek has quit IRC

[16:24] <Harry_Redd> Hi Phil! God to see you.

[16:25] * FrGeek has joined #knownspace

[16:25] <FrGeek> Hey all

[16:25] <Harry_Redd> WB Phil.

[16:25] <SpaceCowboy> I'd think the passenger in an Aston Martin would notice something unusual about the seat. If his head was against the car roof, ya know? The seat rails? The bumblebee yellow handles ...?

[16:26] <Harry_Redd> Yeah. Nukes are not called LOUDENBOOMERS In techDuiche for nothing.

[16:26] <FrGeek> There was also teh james Bond episode wher ehad a c-140 with jection seats LOL

[16:26] <Harry_Redd> Err Earghsplitten Loudenboomers!

[16:26] <NickE> Hi Phil

[16:26] * senax has joined #knownspace

[16:27] <Harry_Redd> Hi Senax!

[16:27] <NickE> Yeah one I saw in the shop today was called "Wrath Of God" FFS!

[16:27] <senax> Hello Frank.

[16:27] <NickE> Hi senax

[16:27] <senax> Hi everyone

[16:28] <SpaceCowboy> Hi newcomers

[16:28] <Harry_Redd> PHil, I'd L*O*V*E to have the power sources for some of those devicces in the Bond movies. MUCH you could do with them.

[16:29] <NickE> <fireworks, big time>

[16:29] <SpaceCowboy> Or a tracker that talks to *your* GPS readout ...

[16:29] <vilstef> Like the Joker would say, "Where does he get all those great toys?"

[16:29] <NickE> :-)

[16:29] <Harry_Redd> "Wrath Of God" Somehow, I'd feel safer facing the Wrath of God than the bumbelings of man.

[16:29] <FRED> in the trailer the joker had another line after that

[16:29] <FRED> "Well, don't just stand there - GO AND ASK HIM"

[16:29] <FRED> and the chase ensued

[16:29] <vilstef> LOL!

[16:29] <FRED> I was SO annoyed they cut that

[16:30] <NickE> Yeah

[16:30] <FrGeek> That was an ineteresting thread about the Bizzaro world Joker

[16:30] <vilstef> I was please at how many responded to it

[16:31] <Harry_Redd> Producers rarely have a good sense of humor. Hollywood knockes it out of the, Hollywood being a place where ordinary business is so strange that real humor gets overlooked!

[16:31] <SpaceCowboy> A friend sent me the cool Spider-Man trailer ... the one with the helicopter.

[16:31] <FRED> bill, the ejector seat seat bottom was normal height; the dummy was just tall

[16:31] <NickE> Agreed (Bizzaro thread)

[16:31] <Harry_Redd> True!

[16:31] <SpaceCowboy> Ah, Fred ... I get it.

[16:31] <FRED> they didn't build the mechanism in the seat bottom -- they built it in the seat back!

[16:32] <NickE> Read a reprint of early Supes with teh earliest Bizzaro appearance

[16:32] <SpaceCowboy> A humorless Joker? Hmm, the mind boggles.

[16:32] <Harry_Redd> ONe of the things in STUNTMAN was Punomatic Launchers. They work well but take a LOT of room.

[16:32] <Treehugger> You want to ejct a passenger, reach over and unhook his seat belt just as you slam on the brakes!

[16:33] <NickE> Lots of B&W late 50's Supes reprints for just 7 quid. Got the GL one as well, earliest silverage Hal, nice

[16:33] <vilstef> Yeah, using the deadliest weapon. . .

[16:33] * Nesssus has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)

[16:33] <FrGeek> Woudl the Bizarro world Yoda speak normally?

[16:33] <NickE> HHAHAHA! Funny that is

[16:34] <SpaceCowboy> Maybe, but no sense would he make.

[16:34] <Harry_Redd> The deadliest weapon is the Human mind... Provided you've got it loaded. ;-)

[16:34] <vilstef> Germanic my grammar is.

[16:34] <NickE> :-)

[16:34] <Harry_Redd> And "You too this way would talk if Frank Oz both his hands up your ass he had!"

[16:34] <NickE> hope Mel can make it back, been a while

[16:35] <NickE> LOL

[16:35] <NickE> brb

[16:35] <vilstef> Up your ass & ready to reach out your mouth even!

[16:35] <Harry_Redd> That too!

[16:35] <Treehugger> LMAO Frank!

[16:36] <vilstef> Looks like he swallowed Frank Oz

[16:36] <Harry_Redd> Thanks!

[16:37] <SpaceCowboy> That or he's defecating Frank Oz...

[16:37] <Treehugger> I expected the credits to show Yoda played by Fozzy Bear.

[16:37] <Harry_Redd> NO COMMENT!

[16:37] <vilstef> Or Miss Piggy

[16:37] <Harry_Redd> BAD ARTIST! Noi Cookie!

[16:37] <vilstef> Now that would be range as an actor!

[16:38] <SpaceCowboy> Somebody did a great "Empire" parody with Luke doing his Jedi training with Fozzie in his backpack ... hilarious.

[16:38] <SeanS> hi guys... home now

[16:38] <vilstef> I wonder if that would be on YouTube

[16:39] <SpaceCowboy> It was contemporary with the release of the film ... I couldn't speculate on YouTube

[16:40] <Treehugger> That'd be worth seeing!

[16:40] <NickE> back

[16:40] <vilstef> I'll have to look then. You can see Superhero physics on YouTube BTW

[16:40] <Harry_Redd> HI Sean.

[16:40] <NickE> dogs terrified of fireworks

[16:40] <senax> So are mine...thunder too.

[16:40] <Harry_Redd> A nice way to celebrate my birthday Nick. ;-)

[16:41] <NickE> All for you Frank

[16:41] <SpaceCowboy> Is it your birthday, Frank?

[16:41] <NickE> oh and that Guy Fawkes bloke

[16:41] <senax> Happy birthday Frank

[16:42] <SpaceCowboy> "Birthdays: Better Than The Alternative."

[16:42] <Harry_Redd> Thanks Senax

[16:42] <Harry_Redd> Truly!

[16:42] <SpaceCowboy> Senax is quoting HAL...

[16:42] <SeanS> Larry, I am very sorry about connection problems last month. it has been corrected.

[16:42] <senax> LOL

[16:42] <Harry_Redd> The 5th SC.

[16:43] <senax> That's just what I was thinking

[16:43] * SeanS sets mode: +o Harry_Redd

[16:43] * SeanS sets mode: +v Larry

[16:43] * SeanS sets mode: +o NickE

[16:44] <FRED> btw, if anybody here would like a collection of david hasselhoff music videos

[16:44] <FRED> they're currently available on my idisk

[16:44] <senax> Had a good launch out of Vandenberg this fireworks.

[16:44] <SeanS> my isp upgrade worked out well

[16:45] <NickE> So, while we have the collective mind here in part, what do you folks think about the terraforming depicted in Firefly/Serenity? I'm touying with the idea of an article for one of the Firefly podcasts and this is a central theme.

[16:45] <Harry_Redd> This is SCARY!,,3-2436948,00.html

[16:45] <SeanS> no change to my ip addy and an incredible speed boost

[16:45] <NickE> neat

[16:45] <FRED> I think the terraforming in Firefly is idiotic

[16:45] <Harry_Redd> Very Neet!

[16:45] <FRED> I think Joss doesn't know the difference between a solar system and a galaxy and a universe

[16:46] <FrGeek> Yah, Terreformin in serenity seems to include changing a planets gravity

[16:46] <FRED> yes

[16:46] <NickE> I think his characters don't

[16:46] <FRED> they seem to be able to make a habitable world out of ANYTHING

[16:46] <SpaceCowboy> I wouldn't know.

[16:46] <FRED> at any distance from the primary

[16:46] <FRED> and they don't have ftl

[16:46] <Harry_Redd> they seem to be able to make a habitable world out of ANYTHING Harlequinn's Moon?

[16:46] <vilstef> Frank, that article does produce a chill.

[16:47] <FRED> harry, ANYTHING

[16:47] <Treehugger> It helps if all your planets and moons are solid and have the same gravity whatever their size due to different mass.

[16:47] <FRED> they turned one system into hundreds of 'new earths'

[16:47] <NickE> Agreed, the grav control tging is a big question, but it's there and there's ways to fanwank round it. Q is, Why didnt they terraform the home system? Or did they and soemthing went wrong?

[16:47] <Harry_Redd> It was predictable. When tribal societies see one tribe get away with something, they try it themselves.

[16:47] <FRED> exactly -- who cares if earth was 'used up'

[16:47] <FRED> with their terraforming?

[16:48] <FRED> they could make every hunk of rock in sol system habitable

[16:48] <NickE> My point exactly

[16:48] <FRED> that HAS to be easier than MOVING

[16:48] * Treehugger has quit IRC (Quit: *g0ne*)

[16:48] <Harry_Redd> When it comes to metals, The term "USED UP" only applys to Surface Deposits!

[16:48] <NickE> Right, you dont do that without an extiction level reason breathing down your neck

[16:49] <Harry_Redd> Is Extention Level Reason one that applys to the entire race or just politicians?

[16:50] <FrGeek> In fact I think the solar system woudl be terreformed before wefind a habitable planet

[16:50] <NickE> page just loaded, Treffic. There;s ya exctiction level thrat right there :-(

[16:50] <SpaceCowboy> There's an irony for ya ... build a space colony by terraforming it and in the process alter its course to collide with Earth ...

[16:50] <Harry_Redd> Atleast many of the Moons Phil.

[16:50] <NickE> True. but I gotta work with what's cannon in Firefly

[16:51] * Treehugger has joined #knownspace

[16:51] <senax> A dozen or so would have been more pelievable than "hundreds".

[16:51] <senax> believable

[16:51] <Harry_Redd> True, but that would limit the number of possible of story lines.

[16:52] <senax> It worked ok for Cowboy Bebop :-)

[16:52] <FrGeek> UNless the system was made by ringworld engineer level aliens

[16:52] * nick_danger_3rd_eye has joined #knownspace

[16:52] <vilstef> If the rock is outside the habitation zone, genetic engineering to accomodate conditions is more likely than terraforming

[16:52] <NickE> Joss read good SF, including Larry's so he's not coming at it completely unprepared, though he admits freely that the science side of it is not his striong point

[16:52] <FRED> the only way 'hundreds' works is if they had an asteroid belt in the habitable zone

[16:52] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> i'm back. after blowing up 50 ...

[16:52] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> ...of fireworks

[16:53] <vilstef> Good show, Nick!

[16:53] <FRED> why fireworkds?

[16:53] <Harry_Redd> Glad you had fun Nick...

[16:53] <NickE> luckily, that is not the main appeal of the series, character and story. But I'm interested in looking at this MAJOR hard SF background point

[16:53] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> I can almost hear again!

[16:53] <FRED> agreed, I *love* firefly

[16:53] <vilstef> Remember, remember the 5th of November. . .

[16:53] <NickE> Thats the one

[16:53] <FRED> but I gritted my teeth through that narration opening every week

[16:54] <FRED> and was horrified when they revived it for Serenity

[16:54] <NickE> Which doesnt appear in teh DVDs

[16:54] <Harry_Redd> Knowing something about the base character of the "Brits" One of these days, there will be some REAL Fireworks on the GUY's Day.

[16:54] <FRED> no

[16:54] <FRED> I thought we were free of it

[16:54] <FRED> I thought maybe Fox added it

[16:54] <FRED> and Joss killed it

[16:54] <FRED> given that it's back in the movie, I'm not sure why it's not on the DVDs

[16:54] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> ya... death to Guy Fawkes

[16:55] <NickE> Probably one of the little compromises he had to make to get the BDM made

[16:55] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> narration?

[16:55] <FRED> yeah, firefly, when it aired, had narration by the reverend

[16:56] <NickE> Earth that was could no longer support us....

[16:56] <NickE> etc

[16:56] <NickE> Pooted back story of why the 'verse existed

[16:56] <NickE> potted

[16:57] <Harry_Redd> A pity that they didn't solve that problem by killing off most of the lawyers!

[16:57] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> really? I never heard it

[16:57] <NickE> True

[16:57] <FRED> okay, incoming:

[16:57] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> I never saw it on tv. and it was the same one as at the beginning of the movie?

[16:57] <SpaceCowboy> Pity? Or pooty?

[16:57] <FRED> After the Earth was used up, we found a new solar system and hundreds of new Earths were terraformed and colonized. The central planets formed the Alliance and decided all the planets had to join under their rule. There was some disagreement on that point. After the War, many of the Independents who had fought and lost drifted to the edges of the system, far from Alliance control. Out here, people struggled to get by with the most basic technologies; a ship

[16:57] <NickE> It's at teh start of Serenity

[16:57] <FRED> that's the original Firefly narration

[16:58] <FRED> then they changed it

[16:58] <FRED> and made it worse:

[16:58] <NickE> Yup, its also printed at the start of the comic books

[16:58] <FRED> Here's how it is: Earth got used up, so we terraformed a whole new galaxy of Earths, some rich and flush with new technologies, some not so much. Central Planets, them was formed the Alliance, waged war to bring everyone under their rule; a few idiots tried to fight it, among them myself. I'm Malcolm Reynolds, captain of the Serenity. Got a good crew: fighters, pilot, mechanic. We even picked up a preacher, and a bona fide companion. There's a doctor, too, h

[16:58] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> oh. Don't miss it really? I don't see how it would have added anything.

[16:58] <FRED> in Serenity they said:

[16:58] <FRED> Earth-that-was could no longer sustain our numbers, we were so many. We found a new solar system - dozens of planets and hundreds of moons. Each one terraformed - a process taking decades, to support human life, to be new earths. The Central Planets formed the Alliance. Ruled by an interplanetary parliament, the Alliance was a beacon of civilization. The savage outer planets were not so enlightened and refused Alliance control. The war was devastating, but t

[16:58] <NickE> Nope, just for the hignorant

[16:59] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> the professor and mary ann, here on gilligans spaceship

[16:59] <Treehugger> Dozens of planets, hundreds of moons . . . fixed in only decades. Impressive.

[16:59] <FRED> heh, terraforming worlds with coconut and bamboo

[16:59] <Harry_Redd> the term DECADES bothers me. Centuries is almost believeable, but Melinimem would be more likely.

[16:59] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> I'm glad they took it off the episodes.

[16:59] <NickE> Its a scoot over of what must have been the real reasons. this is something I want to explore in the possible article I mentioned

[17:00] <FRED> given that they had to get to the new system STL

[17:00] <NickE> It's only 500 years in the future. V short timescale

[17:00] <FRED> who cares if it took millenia to terraform?

[17:00] <NickE> Generation ships

[17:01] <FRED> gotta wonder how you put earth normal gravity on hundreds of moons and not send 'em flying every which way, too

[17:01] <NickE> The high tech was there before the migration

[17:01] <FRED> they must have short range gravity

[17:01] <Treehugger> Mind you, wasn't last one said by a teacher? She may have been exagerating, or lying.

[17:01] <SpaceCowboy> Or approach C to a high degree and their travel time would be completely subjective...

[17:01] <FRED> goes just high enough to hold the air

[17:01] <NickE> Official history

[17:01] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> Well, I think it's the best sci-fi tv show I have seen in about, oh 20 years, silly naration or not. Mainly because of the chararcters in it

[17:01] <NickE> Local is my guess, works for the ships

[17:01] <FRED> yes, the last one is said by the teacher, so could be suspect

[17:01] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> and the high quality writing..

[17:01] <NickE> Agreed, it ROCKS

[17:02] <Harry_Redd> Good story lines.

[17:02] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> particulary Jaynestown

[17:02] <FRED> yes, like I said, I love it

[17:02] <Harry_Redd> Better than GSG.

[17:02] <FrGeek> OK who is this for a fanwank.... probes were sent to terrrform eth worlds. It took centruies, but for teh crew under time dilation it seemed like only cneturies.

[17:02] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> I think that must be the best episode of any sci fi show I have ever seen.

[17:02] <NickE> Oooh, I like that

[17:03] <NickE> Probes could have gone faster

[17:03] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> I hadn't seen the last episode until the other day. Hadn't wanted to watch it...

[17:03] <Treehugger> Hey, the writer wanted lots of worlds but no FTL. We got Firefly & Serenity. Good deal!

[17:03] <FRED> the problem is

[17:03] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> so i wouldn't run out

[17:03] <FRED> we know what year firefly is in

[17:03] <FRED> 2517 AD

[17:03] <NickE> yes

[17:03] <NickE> but is that ship time?

[17:03] <FRED> heh

[17:03] <Harry_Redd> 2517 Subjective?

[17:04] <NickE> Would have to be some dilation effect due to distance

[17:04] <SpaceCowboy> Like I suggested above.

[17:04] <Treehugger> And there's Galactic Savings Time . . . and by the way, wouldn't they be using a Chinese calandar?

[17:04] <NickE> assuming that the 'verse is a system within say 50 LY

[17:04] <NickE> :-)

[17:04] <SpaceCowboy> Approach C, build up a fierce Tau Factor...

[17:04] <Harry_Redd> True. Politicians would never understand the difference and would set the calendar dates. ;-)

[17:05] <NickE> Sounds possible

[17:05] <FrGeek> YES blame it on te politicians!

[17:05] * FRED is now known as a

[17:05] <Harry_Redd> a?

[17:05] <NickE> There's lots of fanwank routes around some of the problems

[17:06] <FrGeek> SPACECOWBOY, I did not notice your beat me to the time dilation idea.

[17:06] <a> .

[17:06] <Harry_Redd> LS Radio Communications too. I doubt that there would be any real contact with Earth.

[17:06] <FrGeek> Well we have all called fred a ____ ;)

[17:07] <SpaceCowboy> Great minds and all, FrGeek ... ;)

[17:07] <NickE> But I want to examine the possibility of humanity remaining in the home system...or maybe they were fleeing aggressive AI, sombody here did that :-)

[17:07] <FrGeek> Like earthdeleoping FTL abd returningto the Serenity system?

[17:07] <vilstef> The Japanese with nanotech AI toys maybe?

[17:07] <FrGeek> Let me try that again

[17:08] <FrGeek> Like earth developing FTL abd returning to the Serenity system?

[17:08] <NickE> Unless theer was say a massive change in solar output and terraformed or not, it was time to quit the home system. 500 years later, they'd probably only refer to Earth That Was

[17:08] <Harry_Redd> They were actually fleeing Marketing people and telephone Sanitizers. ;-)

[17:08] * a is now known as a_galaxy_of_FREDS

[17:09] <NickE> LOL!!!

[17:09] <vilstef> Telemarketers going phone sanitation ?

[17:09] <vilstef> Doing phone sanitation

[17:09] <Harry_Redd> A massive change in Solar Output would only make Outer planet moons habitzable, unless it was NOVA sized.

[17:09] <NickE> Think I'll keep it STL, this is meant to be an article, not fan fiction (of which there is LOTS)

[17:10] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> soo tired of the political phone calls

[17:10] <NickE> I was thiking a massive DROP in solar output, a big freeze

[17:10] <Harry_Redd> Even then Urainus and Neptunes moons might be made liveable. Lots of Ice and rock to work with there.

[17:10] <SeanS> yeah, i cant wait till next wednesday when all the political crap will be over

[17:11] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> you'll never make uranus liveable frank

[17:11] <Treehugger> Amen, SeanS!

[17:11] <Treehugger> LOL, FRED!

[17:11] <Harry_Redd> Unexpected Conciquences of Politics Sean. Enrichment of Printing outfits!

[17:11] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> that's the problem with gas giants

[17:11] <Treehugger> What are you implying about Harry?

[17:12] <FrGeek> Well far easier than terriforming or exploration would be buiding huge space habitats enetually becomeinga classical dyson sphere IE lots of individual habitats foring a sphere-like cloud

[17:12] <Harry_Redd> Urainus has moons thaat would work though Ffred.

[17:12] <NickE> Xactly. The migration and terraforming is an effort comparable to building a RW IMO

[17:12] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> and I hear there are rings around uranus too frank

[17:13] <Harry_Redd> You've been looking Fred?

[17:13] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> listening

[17:13] <FrGeek> Oh this is going nowhere good...

[17:13] <NickE> There had to be a real pressing reason to get out of Dodge

[17:13] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> yes nick

[17:13] <Harry_Redd> Truly Phil.

[17:13] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> I'm not sure what's going on in the opening of serenity

[17:14] <Harry_Redd> Agreed NickE.

[17:14] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> if all those big flashes on the earth are supposed to be nukes, or ships taking off, or what

[17:14] <NickE> Looks like war, with all the flashes on ETW

[17:14] <NickE> Deliberately vague I'm sure

[17:14] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> hey, you see speilberg is gonna screw up When Worlds Collide?

[17:14] <NickE> Oh no

[17:14] <FrGeek> I always assumed they were ships. Maybe super orions.

[17:14] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> yeah

[17:15] <Harry_Redd> Most wars are survivable. A Nanobot War, well things would be very iffy.

[17:15] <NickE> Almost would have to be to shift that much population and hardware

[17:15] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> Tom Cruise IS "Cole Hendron"

[17:15] <NickE> Cruise, oh boy

[17:15] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> joking about that

[17:15] <NickE> thakn f**k for that!

[17:15] <FrGeek> I hate overuse of nanotech in sci-fi. It lieka hip version of unobtainaium

[17:16] <Harry_Redd> OMG! The dumbing down of 1930's SF!

[17:16] <NickE> Hey, re-reading Startide Rising, Brin actually uses the term "the moon had a core of almost 1% unobtanium" Heh

[17:16] <Harry_Redd> I don't mind it's use Phil, I really object to the Negative use of it.

[17:16] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> hmm. okay, it's now listed to be directed by steven somers

[17:16] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> When a group of astronomers calculate a star is on a course to slam into Earth, a few days before, it's accompanying planet will first pass close enough to the Earth to cause havoc on land and sea. They set about building a rocket so a few selected individuals can escape to the planet.

[17:17] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> man. that's a great a synopsis as the one for the ringworld mini series

[17:17] <NickE> Just as long as they leave Forbidden Planet and Day The Earth Stood Still alone

[17:17] <FrGeek> Of course teh problem with tah if its going close enough to spell the end of thearth, the rogue planets going to get hosed.

[17:18] <Harry_Redd> I liked the "Free Planets" Idea of the original.

[17:18] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> yeah, making one a star was a bit much

[17:18] <NickE> yes

[17:18] <Treehugger> Nanotech is like the Trek transporter; a cute idea but too damn useful. If it worked and was developed enough, it could do anything.

[17:18] <FrGeek> NICK You read my mind, just about to say teh same thing about "The day teh earth stood still"

[17:18] <NickE> Great film

[17:18] <NickE> Those are probably my 2 fave 50s films

[17:19] <FrGeek> YAH teh ST transpoter is also a the fountain of youth and the ultimate weapon

[17:19] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea is my favorite 50s film

[17:19] <Harry_Redd> I think that maybe most Film people don't watch the Astro Science shows on PBS.

[17:20] <NickE> Or any science stuff

[17:20] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> film people don't watch tv

[17:20] <Treehugger> I liked one I think was titled 20 million years to Earth.

[17:20] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> or read books

[17:20] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> tthey only watch films

[17:20] <Harry_Redd> Fave 50's SF is FORBIDDAN PLANET handsdown. WAR OF THE WORLD comes close in some ways.

[17:20] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> 20 Million Miles to Earth is Harryhausen, the Ymir

[17:20] <NickE> Agrred

[17:20] * SeanS sets mode: +v SpaceCowboy

[17:20] <vilstef> Considering the literacy of most films, I'd say the people who make them mostly listen to each other.

[17:20] <NickE> FP is the dogs

[17:20] <FrGeek> Yah bad sci-fi gives sci-fi a bad name. It gives geeks a bad name too. No wait, its geeks that gives geeks a bad name ;)

[17:21] <Treehugger> FRED, is that the one with the alien ship found under the city, and the alien lifeforce gets loose?

[17:21] <Harry_Redd> <vilstef> Considering the literacy of most films, I'd say the people who make them mostly listen to each other. Just like the MEDIA folk. A Closed community.

[17:21] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> no

[17:21] <NickE> Fraid Torchwood is going that route

[17:21] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> that's quartermass . . .

[17:21] <vilstef> Day the Earth Stood Still is another great 50s sf film

[17:21] <NickE> Nigel Kneal jsut died

[17:22] <Harry_Redd> A shame abgou5 Kneal.

[17:22] <NickE> Agreed Gene

[17:22] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> five million years to earth

[17:22] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> is the one in the pit in england

[17:22] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> and the telepathic locusts

[17:22] <Treehugger> That's it, Fred.

[17:22] <NickE> yeah, folks still remember his stuff, not just Quatermass, though it paved the way for Who and better SF

[17:23] <vilstef> I saw 5 Million years to earth at my first con.

[17:23] <FrGeek> Remeber that episode of cheers wher norm and cliff reneted soem of those movie and send a guys night watching them, and Dr. Crane says how literate and shakespearain FOrbidden planet and teh ilk were?

[17:23] <Treehugger> I really liked that one.

[17:23] <Harry_Redd> The originzal QUARTERMASS film with Brian Donleavy about Aliens putting a colony one Earth is one they NEVER show!

[17:23] <NickE> Well FP is a version of The Tempest after all

[17:23] <senax> And Strange Brew was Hamlet

[17:24] <Harry_Redd> Stealing from the best again NickE

[17:24] <senax> :-)

[17:24] <FrGeek> Yes, and it made Norn and Cliff loose all interest in it

[17:24] <NickE> :-)

[17:26] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> I still want to try 'bef'

[17:26] <FrGeek> Wait thats it, Forbidden planet with shakespeaian dialog. "and yon first mate, taketh the helm and engage the engines warpal..."

[17:26] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> not beef, it's a trademark

[17:26] <NickE> Return To The Forbidden Planet was the best stage musical I'd seen since Rocky Horror

[17:26] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> really?

[17:26] <NickE> But soft, what light from yonder airlock breaks

[17:27] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> 'tis the Id, and Honey is the West

[17:27] <FrGeek> Yah, you don't see me complaining about he loobster

[17:27] <NickE> Beware the IDs of March!

[17:27] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> :D

[17:27] <NickE> I have the soundtrack too

[17:28] <NickE> Shakespeare, Rock and Roll and SF with audience participation...excellent

[17:28] <FrGeek> Alas poor yorick, I knew him horacio, before tha smiling face and sturdy frame were hoobly mangle sin a transporter accident....

[17:28] <NickE> <grin>

[17:29] <vilstef> oops

[17:29] <SpaceCowboy> I haven't heard of that Quatermass job, Felix, but do like the one with the martian bugs.

[17:29] <vilstef> It was probably that broken airlock, actually.

[17:29] <NickE> The Pit is the onbe people remember best I think

[17:29] <SpaceCowboy> "Honey is the West" ... LOL!

[17:29] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> :)

[17:30] <FrGeek> Well I must be off, i may be back in 3-4 hours for the ozzies

[17:30] <NickE> TTFn Phil

[17:30] <Harry_Redd> All the Quartermass films are pretty interresting.

[17:30] * FrGeek has quit IRC

[17:30] <vilstef> Cya Phil

[17:30] <Treehugger> Four words: Teenagers From Outer Space. Love that raygun!

[17:30] <NickE> TA for soem intersting ideas

[17:30] <Harry_Redd> Adios Phil.

[17:31] <SpaceCowboy> L8R Phil

[17:31] <senax> bye Phil

[17:32] <SpaceCowboy> Steve McQueen's "Beware of the Blob" ... love that theme music!

[17:32] <Harry_Redd> THEM works... Except for the innital premis. ;-)

[17:33] <SpaceCowboy> That and the inverse square law, Harry ... chitin just couldn't stand up to them in Them.

[17:34] * Harry_Redd sets mode: +v vilstef

[17:34] <Harry_Redd> Try now Vil.

[17:34] <vilstef> OK

[17:35] <SpaceCowboy> Actually that's inverse cube...

[17:35] <Harry_Redd> Truly SC, But I liked the idea that a Thompson could do enough damage to kill THEM. ;-)

[17:35] <Harry_Redd> Bullets CAN stop them!

[17:35] <SpaceCowboy> Instead of deuce-anna-halfs the Army should've come in with Orkin trucks.

[17:36] <senax> or a really big shoe

[17:36] <SpaceCowboy> Or *huge* Roach Motels...

[17:36] <Harry_Redd> RECON Jeeps (with Ma Duc3e) worked too!

[17:36] <vilstef> Bring in Franz Kafka, just to see his reaction.

[17:37] <Harry_Redd> REALLY BIG Magnifying Glass during the day!

[17:37] <NickE> biobreak

[17:37] <SpaceCowboy> ROTFL!

[17:37] <vilstef> Huge frogs!

[17:37] <Harry_Redd> No HUGE Horned Toads!

[17:38] <senax> or divert them by using tanker trucks to make a trail of molasses

[17:38] <SpaceCowboy> Didn't I see an episode of The Tick where the intelligent ants were building a huge magnifying glass to attack the humans?

[17:38] <vilstef> Maybe the 50 foot woman to wear that big shoe?

[17:38] <Harry_Redd> A BOOT!

[17:39] <SpaceCowboy> With 15-foot spiked heels ...

[17:39] <vilstef> :)

[17:39] <Harry_Redd> NO, She's be stomping on hevery male for looking up her dress!

[17:39] <SpaceCowboy> Do you know HOW MANY COWS would have to die ....? nevermind.

[17:40] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> I watched DR CYCLOPS last week

[17:41] <Harry_Redd> Hmmm, Hillory just turned 60. One has to wonder if she will try to live on Social Security?

[17:41] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> I know I saw it as a kid; I'm amazed it didn't scar me for life

[17:41] <SpaceCowboy> Fishnet stockings made from real purse seiners ...

[17:41] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> Hillary has to be older than 60.

[17:41] <Treehugger> lol

[17:41] <Harry_Redd> Her Birthday is today. 60!

[17:41] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> wait -- she has to be YOUNGER than 60

[17:42] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> otherwise she couldn't have been named after sir Edmund

[17:42] <NickE> jeez, I take a leak and its all giant amphibians and 50ft women when I come back!

[17:42] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> amphibians and 50 foot women? and which one is Hillary?

[17:42] <Treehugger> See what you get?

[17:42] <Treehugger> That's a lot of silk, too, for her thong.

[17:42] <Harry_Redd> OOPS! Wrong First Lady. It's LAURA BUSH!

[17:43] <vilstef> She'd be 59 actually:

[17:43] <SpaceCowboy> Are you calling Hillary a giant amphibian?

[17:43] <vilstef> Hillary Rodham Clinton (born Hillary Diane Rodham on October 26, 1947)

[17:43] <SpaceCowboy> MOTHRA could provide the silk ...

[17:43] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> that can't be right

[17:43] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> if it was, she'd have been lying about her name

[17:43] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> for the last 6 decades

[17:44] <SpaceCowboy> In for a penny, in for a pound...

[17:44] <vilstef> Most politicos are giant amphibians, if not outright reptiles.

[17:45] <SpaceCowboy> And a vast majority of television execs are "peducas"...

[17:45] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> maybe her parents didn't name her 'til she was in grade school

[17:46] <Harry_Redd> ??

[17:46] <SpaceCowboy> A "peduca" is a small spineless bottom-feeding mollusc...

[17:46] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> it feeds on spinless bottoms?

[17:46] <Harry_Redd> Apt Description SC.

[17:47] <NickE> back in a bit, QI is on

[17:47] <SpaceCowboy> Pronounced "ped-OOH-sah."

[17:48] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> ooohhh... they're dropping like flies now

[17:48] <SpaceCowboy> For the most part, Galaxy, I'd say yes ... and a lot of those bottoms are so spineless they won't get up off them to change the channel.

[17:49] <Harry_Redd> One has to wonder why the Media makes a big thing about a Republican politician who is "Gay" (and did nothing Illegal), when there are so many Gay Democrats serving in the House and the Senate? :-^)

[17:49] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> how come some people here have icons by their names?

[17:49] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> larry, space, and sistef have green plus signs

[17:49] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> harry, nick, and sean have @

[17:50] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> oh shit, there's more than one FRED!

[17:50] <senax> The @ denotes channel operator

[17:50] <Harry_Redd> Voiced they are.

[17:50] <nick_danger_3rd_eye> be afraid!

[17:50] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> voiced?

[17:50] <senax> What's voice doing in IRC? That's a new on on me.

[17:51] * nick_danger_3rd_eye is now known as l-ron-danger

[17:51] <SeanS> just puts them to the head of the list

[17:51] * SeanS sets mode: +o a_galaxy_of_FREDS

[17:51] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> lol

[17:51] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> well, after me anyway

[17:51] * l-ron-danger says "open your wallets and repeat after me: help yourself!"

[17:52] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> hey, did you see you can get NICK DANGER on itunes?

[17:52] <vilstef> Your canine mind control trick only works when we let it

[17:52] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> all 25 minutes or whatever of it for 99

[17:52] <l-ron-danger> i did, buy my wife hates firsign theater...

[17:52] <SpaceCowboy> Please don't remind me, L-Ron, that's part of why I don't work with them anymore.

[17:52] <l-ron-danger> you can see the episode of South Park: Make Love not Warcraft

[17:53] <l-ron-danger> spacecowboy -> you did? I'm facinated. I just re-read Bare Faced Messiah. I want to write a screen play from it.

[17:54] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> I'm grabbing ep 3 of TORCHWOOD right now. It better be better than the first two.

[17:54] <SpaceCowboy> I was a judge for the first 6 or 7 years of "The Illustrators of the Future Contest."

[17:54] <l-ron-danger> what are they like to work for?

[17:54] * Conundrummer has quit IRC (Quit: *g0ne*)

[17:54] <SpaceCowboy> Shallow. Anal retentive.

[17:55] <SpaceCowboy> Odd.

[17:55] * Retrieving #knownspace modes...

[17:55] <l-ron-danger> fred .. I've only seen the first one. It had a Russell T. Davies speech in it

[17:55] * SeanS sets mode: -n

[17:56] <Harry_Redd> " That short spikey writing of an Anal Retentive about to lose his grip".

[17:56] <l-ron-danger> spacecowboy > heh. sounds about right

[17:56] <l-ron-danger> ah, my daughters party continues...

[17:56] <l-ron-danger> downstairs

[17:56] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> the first torchwood was promising. the second was just plain bad.

[17:56] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> somebody referred to it as dr who with 'bolt on sex'

[17:57] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> "Hey, gang, we can swear, lets make sure we do!"

[17:57] <Harry_Redd> The fate of most Spinoof. the new production team does NOT understand the material above the surface.

[17:57] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> "Here's a scene with one of our characters naked for . . . no possible reason"

[17:57] <l-ron-danger> everytime the doctor starts in with "humans... your so... human... just because it was there... you came... cause your wonderful humans..." i want to smash the television... just for a moment

[17:58] <l-ron-danger> the first one was... ok for a pilot...

[17:59] <Harry_Redd> Sorry. Most production teams only see the Surface of the material not the deep concepts.

[18:00] <SpaceCowboy> "Yeah, yeah, yeak, pholosophical underpinnings ... at least we'll keep the car chase."

[18:01] <Harry_Redd> And the Explosians.

[18:01] <SpaceCowboy> That was Ellison. He also said, "Writing for episodic television, if you care about your work, is like reading Voltaire to a cage of baboons."

[18:02] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> pays well though

[18:02] <Harry_Redd> Harlan gets some deep insites at times.

[18:02] <vilstef> Submit everything under the name Alan Smithee or maybe Cordwainer Bird. . .

[18:03] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> I think they retired the Alan Smithee name

[18:03] <SpaceCowboy> I've seen quite a few he gave the Bird byline to ...

[18:03] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> the starlost

[18:03] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> what else?

[18:03] <SpaceCowboy> That's one!

[18:03] <Harry_Redd> Bab5

[18:04] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> HE gave the bird to b5????????????????

[18:04] <Harry_Redd> They made him change it back to harlan though.

[18:04] <SpaceCowboy> "The Twilight Zone" before he walked off...

[18:04] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> oh, VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA

[18:04] <SeanS> new new voyages episode to be released on thanksgiving day

[18:04] <SpaceCowboy> Didn't he do it to the Monkey Movie TV series once or twice?

[18:05] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> nope

[18:06] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> lol, he gave THE FLYING NUN the bird

[18:06] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> how appropriate

[18:06] <SpaceCowboy> I heard he assaulted Irwin Allen with the Seaview model but didn't know his nom-de-plume in those days ...

[18:06] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> and THE HUNGER

[18:06] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> It wasn't Irwin

[18:06] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> it was some suit

[18:06] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> supposedly he went for the guy and the guy hit the wall and the seaview model fell on him

[18:07] <vilstef> There's a bit about CB on Harlan's wikipedia bio

[18:07] <SpaceCowboy> Have him tell the story of the first episode of "The Dating Game ... he was "Bachelor #3" ...

[18:08] <SpaceCowboy> They *burned* the tape after he described his dream date ...

[18:08] <Harry_Redd> supposedly he went for the guy and the guy hit the wall and the seaview model fell on him /// zn Omen?

[18:08] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> okay, long quote coming in:

[18:08] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> Noted science fiction author Harlan Ellison was on the writing staff for a short time, but left after attacking an ABC censor during a heated story conference. "He said, "Writers are toadies, you'll do as your told." And I went bananas." Ellison said in 1980, "...I saw blood red and I just wanted him then! I didn't want to have to go around anything, so I just took the straightest route, which was right down the middle of the fuckin' table. ...I

[18:08] <vilstef> His signoff to the lady asking the questions was pure Harlan.

[18:08] * hankster has joined #knownspace

[18:08] <Harry_Redd> Hi Hank!

[18:08] <vilstef> Hello Hank

[18:09] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> howdy hank

[18:09] <SpaceCowboy> Hello, Hank

[18:10] <NickE> WB WAyne

[18:10] <hankster> Hi guys, I was here earlier on but there weren't many people here. What are we discussing?

[18:10] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> kinda free associating

[18:10] <NickE> fuked if I know

[18:10] <vilstef> Call it an open thread

[18:10] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> right this minute, harlan ellison

[18:10] <Harry_Redd> Hust about everything. HARLAN right now.

[18:10] <SpaceCowboy> Harlan on television...

[18:10] <Harry_Redd> BRB Bio.

[18:11] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> eventually we'll backslide into a RINGWORLD casting session

[18:11] <vilstef> And what he said to the lady on the Dating Game: "Go out with you? I wouldn't go out with a nit like you if they offered me the Governorship of Hawaii as inducement.:

[18:11] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> hee hee

[18:12] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> that's from THE GLASS TEAT isn't it?

[18:12] <vilstef> Yes indeedy.

[18:12] <SeanS> tom selleck i guess

[18:12] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> or maybe THE OTHER GLASS TEAT

[18:12] <hankster> Has everyone got over Harlan's behaviour at World con

[18:12] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> speaking of teats

[18:12] <SpaceCowboy> He's published a very sincere apology, at any rate...

[18:13] <NickE> Wish I'd been at WorldCon, not for that mind

[18:13] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> was the owner of the teat in question upset?

[18:13] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> or was it just witnesses?

[18:13] <SpaceCowboy> I think Connie was upset.

[18:13] <vilstef> For someone over 70 he truly still has behavior issues. Make that being civilized issues.

[18:14] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> oh dear god

[18:14] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> you can see the teat grab on google video

[18:15] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS>

[18:15] <SpaceCowboy> Wish I still had Steve Gallacci's tee shirt from Portland and Harlan's birthday party ... sigh

[18:16] <SpaceCowboy> "50 Short Years of Harlan Ellison" ...

[18:16] <vilstef> Did he take the short on that as a reflection on his height?

[18:16] <SpaceCowboy> Is a bear Catholic?

[18:16] <chorn> holy cow, is the chat today?

[18:17] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> his height is like a vampire, it doesn't even cast a reflection

[18:17] <NickE> Whao WTF weer you Chris?

[18:17] <Harry_Redd> Sure is Chorn. Didn't youo see the announcement on the LIST E-Mail? I posted 3 of them!

[18:17] <chorn> I'm currently in Chicago :)

[18:17] <vilstef> Good one, Fred

[18:17] <Harry_Redd> Or a shadow!

[18:17] <chorn> I've been away from list all week with travel

[18:18] <chorn> and not the good kind of travel, the travel for conferences you don't much care for

[18:18] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> is connie willis remarkably tall?

[18:18] <SpaceCowboy> Well, reflection: yes, shadow: yes ...

[18:18] <SpaceCowboy> But he has to stand in the same place twice to cast either.

[18:18] <chorn> Anyone here in chicago that wants to go out to dinner somewhere? ;)

[18:18] <NickE> Been hearing bout Harlans behaviour for years, never witnessed it or met the man, but he sounds like a prize twat. talented, sometimes, but a twat

[18:19] <Harry_Redd> Don't I wish... Chorn, are you going to make NASFIC?

[18:19] * growler has joined #knownspace

[18:19] <vilstef> Or as Asimov said, "Stand on the fellow next to you Harlan, so everyone can see you."

[18:19] <SpaceCowboy> Actually, he's a nice guy. If you don't cross him

[18:19] <chorn> Frank, is it this weekend? I'm here until thursday.

[18:19] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> helll, people say that about me

[18:19] <NickE> Hi Growler

[18:19] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> they're wrong, too

[18:20] <Harry_Redd> I've almost always got along with Harlan. When we didn't, we setteled amicably.

[18:20] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> I've only ever seen him on stage. He was fine.

[18:20] <SpaceCowboy> Chris, NASFiC is next year.

[18:20] <Harry_Redd> No In'07 last weekend of Aug.

[18:20] <vilstef> Never met him, but like everyone else, I've heard lots of stories.

[18:21] <growler> hi

[18:21] <SpaceCowboy> Hi Growler.

[18:21] <vilstef> Hello Growler

[18:21] <Harry_Redd> Gu Growler.

[18:21] <NickE> Like I said, never met or witnessed bad Harlan. But even complete a**holes can be charming sometimes :-)

[18:22] <hankster> As far as I am concerned there are boundaries to your behaviour in public and that crossed the line.

[18:22] <NickE> Be interesting to judge for myself

[18:22] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> hell, people say that about me

[18:22] <NickE> certainly sounds like that

[18:24] <SpaceCowboy> I'll be back, but absolutely need to find some food. I'll stay on and monitor as I can.

[18:24] <NickE> go eat, Bill

[18:24] <Harry_Redd> Ok.

[18:24] <vilstef> Cya Bill

[18:24] <chorn> The Harlan breast-grabbing-story did not seem like the actions of a sober person

[18:24] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> she doesn't look upset

[18:25] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> heck, she doesn't even look like she noticed

[18:25] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> might well be a 'stage grab' with no contact

[18:26] <chorn> I'm going to reserve judgement until I see something salacious

[18:26] <senax> I'm off to dinner too. Back in a couple of hours, I hope.

[18:27] <senax> Bye

[18:27] * senax has left #knownspace

[18:29] <hankster> Sometimes it takes being an A**hole to achieve stuff, but it should be to achieve a target, not just to make people talk about you.

[18:29] <Treehugger> Nicest thing I can say about Ellison is, he ain't dull.

[18:30] <vilstef> He's certainly been called lots of things, but dull isn't on the list.

[18:31] <Treehugger> Then he's probably pleased!

[18:31] <NickE> Hmm. out of order, yes, but he was playing the Bad Boy big time, possibly aided by booze and being a contrary bugger to boot. Apology required certainly, but true, not dull

[18:31] <Harry_Redd> Harlan don't drink. I'm reminded of a Niven Story involving Harlan.

[18:31] <vilstef> The Busted Kneecap?\

[18:32] <Harry_Redd> Yupper Vil.

[18:32] <vilstef> That's a good one!

[18:32] <chorn> I think I need some dinner too, I'll bbl.

[18:33] <vilstef> Bye for now, Chorn

[18:33] <NickE> whats teh busted kne cap story? Tell Tell!

[18:33] <NickE> later Chris

[18:33] <vilstef> I've only read it, I think Frank has direct knowledge of it.

[18:34] <NickE> Hence teh "tell, Tell!!"

[18:35] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> That brings me to Cooking Out of This World (1973), a cookbook of SF author's recipes edited by Anne McCaffrey -- who, alas, did not reveal how to peel and roast dragons. Scorning mere solids, Larry Niven contributed boozy treats like "Busted Kneecap", invented at a Worldcon party as his consolation for losing a Hugo to Harlan Ellison. The only available ingredients were bourbon and dry ice.

[18:35] <Harry_Redd> The Pro suit ran out of ice and several Pros had declined to go to the Awards dinner, Larry amoung them. Larry "Improvised" by using Dry Ice to cool his bourbon.

[18:36] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> Mixing these gave a terrifying, bubbling, smoking glass of what -- as the water froze out -- became "concentrated, carbonated bourbon at about 20 below. One has to sip this drink carefully, and it will still numb one's mouth. But it got me very drunk indeed, and did me no permanent harm." Let me know how you get on. Niven also described a really dry though pyrotechnic Martini, involving absolute alcohol and metallic sodium, annotated as NOT REC

[18:36] <Harry_Redd> hew found that what resulted was Burbon flavored alcohol after things stopped smoking. He's had about 3 of them as I recall...

[18:37] <Harry_Redd> Well, Harlan had beat larry out of the Short Story Hugo... Again.

[18:37] <vilstef> He thrust the smoking drink at Harlan who jumped out of the way, and said something like, "Tell me this guy doesn't hold a grudge."

[18:38] <Harry_Redd> Larry had just mixed yet another Busted Kneecap when Harlan entered holding his HUGOS.

[18:38] <NickE> OMG!

[18:39] <Harry_Redd> Larry said (As I recall) "Congradulations Harlan, Have a drink!" and handed Harlan this Brown Smoking Bubbling glass.

[18:39] <Harry_Redd> As I recall Harlan's reply was "You've GOT to be kidding!

[18:40] <vilstef> I would've called the drink Mt. Erebus

[18:40] <Harry_Redd> Busted Kneecap works. For most people, ONE and you've got sderious trouble walking!

[18:41] <vilstef> Or talking or anything else.

[18:41] <vilstef> Zip, there goes 20 million years of evolution!

[18:42] <Harry_Redd> That mix seems to target the Balance mechanisim in the inner ear for some reason. ;-)

[18:43] <vilstef> Make you think you're a penguin, and you have trouble balancing on those too long legs.

[18:44] <NickE> Sound like Polish Spirit (an 80% by vol vodka: instant whirling pits on downing one, closest think I;ve ever drunk to a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster!)

[18:45] <vilstef> Most like that I've had is a really raw Islands Rum. Opens 18 sinus passages unknown to medical science. . .

[18:47] <SpaceCowboy> Everclear in the freezer will do it. But you really need to add something to it or it comes right back. (Dinner is nuking...)

[18:48] <hankster> I'm back just been getting breakfast for the kids, mum's sleeping in

[18:48] <SpaceCowboy> I'm curious, Larry .... metallic sodium? What's the advantage in that?

[18:50] <NickE> Um yeah. Wouldn't want to down that sucker in one!

[18:51] <hankster> Assuming there is a certain amount of h2o then the sodium would react quite strongly. You'd want to be drinking from a strong beaker.

[18:51] <NickE> At least it wasn't me that brought up the subject of booze this time (3 pints and 2 large malts so far :-)

[18:52] <hankster> typical alcohol is always discussed on this list:)

[18:52] <vilstef> I think I'd want my whole GI tract lined with something protective before trying that metallic sodium number. . .

[18:53] <hankster> I would have thought that metalic sodium would ruin the flavour if not poison it all together

[18:53] <SpaceCowboy> I think it evolved from discussing Harlan, though, so it's "talking drinking in the line of duty..." yeah, I'd think the sodium blowing up in a glass of flammable liquid is what's sometimes referred to as "...leaning into a punch..."

[18:53] <vilstef> If someone asks me to name my poison, I say warfarin and try to wiggle my nose in a rodent-like manner.

[18:54] <Harry_Redd> It's a drink suitable for the removable of REALLY unwanted guests!

[18:54] <SpaceCowboy> Served in a toxic waste handling flameproof suit with radiation tongs ...

[18:55] <vilstef> You offer those two of these drinks!

[18:55] <vilstef> Ala the drink ordered by Nasty Canasta in Dripalong Daffy

[18:56] <NickE> This is just a whole quantum leap above the usual level of alcoholic discussion here, fascinating!

[18:56] <SpaceCowboy> Yes indeed, Vil!

[18:56] <Harry_Redd> Followed by "SMOOOOOOTH!"

[18:56] <vilstef> Or by a full body explosion. . . I can only do it once

[18:56] <Harry_Redd> ;-)

[18:57] <NickE> Ah, I get that Tucker ref, glad that such characters are remen

[18:57] <SpaceCowboy> It's tough to say "SMOOOOTH!" and sound convincing when your breath is flamethrowering the room, Harry.

[18:57] <NickE> remembered

[18:57] <Harry_Redd> It's said after the flames ceace. :-)

[18:58] <vilstef> I have been authorized by Tucker himself to do Official Smooths

[18:58] <SpaceCowboy> Remembered and missed already, Nick.

[18:58] <vilstef> Very missed.

[18:58] <NickE> Wish I'd had the pleasure

[18:59] <SpaceCowboy> I'm no virgin, either, Vil...

[18:59] <vilstef> LOL!

[18:59] <Harry_Redd> I got Smoothed twice!

[18:59] <vilstef> Bob was one of a kind.

[18:59] <NickE> Lucky lucky bugger

[18:59] <SpaceCowboy> Well, and I've smoothed at you long distance. Does that count?

[19:00] <NickE> I'll drink to that!

[19:00] <SpaceCowboy> Ah ... the call of the nuke ...

[19:00] <vilstef> This ones for you Nick, SMOOOOOOTH!

[19:00] <hankster> I'm sure you would Nick, sounds like Guy Fawkes has gone well?

[19:01] <NickE> Loud is what...and tomorrow night to come!

[19:01] <NickE> Cheers boys!

[19:01] <NickE> Cheers lads!

[19:01] <vilstef> Cheers one and all.

[19:01] <NickE> double whammy!

[19:02] <Harry_Redd> CHEERS! ( place where Everybody Knows your Name!)

[19:03] <NickE> Thats here dude!

[19:03] <NickE> I love getting slammed with you lot

[19:05] <Harry_Redd> I should have setup an Arizona signing for D.T.

[19:06] <growler> Guy Fawkes has not gone well. I let off some $300 worth of pretty nice munitions last night but witnessed plenty of stupidity around.

[19:06] <SpaceCowboy> Wish I felt up to joining you all. (getting slammed, I mean...)

[19:06] <Harry_Redd> Evolution in Action Growler?

[19:06] <growler> Odds are pretty good our government is going to face irresistible pressue to ban public purchase of fireworks.

[19:07] <NickE> Prolly just me, but I have a blast :-)

[19:07] <growler> IT ouwld have been for some if they'd been caught. No - the problem is people attacking others and not merely harming themselves.

[19:07] <Treehugger> Fireworks always culls the stupid. Evo in Action, huzzah!

[19:07] <Treehugger> Especially fireworks and booze!

[19:07] <growler> My group had to disarm some teenargers who'd ripped fence pailings off properties to get weaposn to try and start a brawl

[19:08] <NickE> Where you at growler (I do know, but I forget...whiskey has nothing to do with it!)

[19:08] <growler> Christchurch, New Zealand.

[19:08] <NickE> Euan, D'oh!

[19:08] <NickE> <?>

[19:09] <NickE> Getting hairy round here too, dogs terrified of bangs (louder every year) young gits too causing probs

[19:09] <Treehugger> Which countries celebrate Fawkes day? Thought it was just England.

[19:09] <growler> Back in the early 90's police were cock a hoop in the U.S about the decline in violent crimes and claimed victory for their 'zero tolerance' policing...

[19:10] <growler> ...back then I read an article by a demographer who said it wasn't anything so clever...

[19:10] <Harry_Redd> Getting hairy round here too, dogs terrified of bangs (louder every year) young gits too causing probs||| How?

[19:10] <Treehugger> Decline of what now? Not around here.

[19:10] <growler> ...violent crime is committed by teenage males. In the late 80's and 90's there is a demographic dip in the population. He said, and I read this more than ten years ago, that from 2005 to 2010 violent crime would increase...

[19:11] <hankster> Like I said this morning, WA does not do Guy Fawkes, hasn't for years, due to fire danger and injuries.

[19:11] <growler> ...because that's when the grandchildren of the baby boomers would create a swell in their demographic. And it sure seesm to me that it's happening. Terrific upsurge in teenage crimes in NZ.

[19:11] <NickE> Dissafected hoodie weraing youths on every street corner with chep access to high explosives

[19:11] <NickE> whaddaya think

[19:12] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> Extreme care is required in handling elemental/metallic sodium. Sodium is potentially explosive in water (depending on quantity) and is a caustic poison, since it is rapidly converted to sodium hydroxide on contact with moisture. The powdered form may combust spontaneously in air or oxygen. Sodium must be stored either in an inert (oxygen and moisture free) atmosphere (such as nitrogen or argon), or under a liquid hydrocarbon such as mineral oil

[19:12] <Harry_Redd> It will in the US if something isn't done about Illegals. I saw a demographic map of Violent incidents. Most take place in mostly Hispanic neighborhoods.

[19:12] <Harry_Redd> In PHOENIX that is.

[19:12] <growler> It will take place in the teenage population. Race isn't the issue.

[19:13] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> phoenix is mostly a hispanic neighborhood

[19:13] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> :)

[19:13] <growler> Mexico sneakily retakes it's stolen province. There's a nice cold dish of vengenace.

[19:14] <NickE> Its' not that bad in the village where I live, but towns seem to be having bigger problems with teens and fireworks. New legislation brought in recently (though only targets over 16s...which of course isn't the bulk of the problem)

[19:14] <Harry_Redd> More like a nice cold dish of GREED!

[19:14] <SpaceCowboy> Stupidity knows no racial barriers. But inexperience blunders across the "stupid" line more frequently than not.

[19:15] <growler> Most of the world isn't going to cry if someones greed prospers at the expense of the U.S

[19:15] <NickE> tru

[19:15] <Harry_Redd> Phoenix is about 20% Hispanic now. About half of that Illegals. Part of the problem is Legal Hispanics don't like what the Illegals bring with them.

[19:15] <Harry_Redd> Very True Growler, and the Liberals here encourage it!

[19:16] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> they'll miss us when we're gone

[19:16] <growler> There's a lot of whining in NZ right now for banning fireworks - and after what I saw last night it's hard to argie against. But I wish they'd just start with an increase in the age they can be purcahsed at. Currently it's 14.

[19:16] <NickE> Shit

[19:16] <Harry_Redd> NO, their greed will divolve them to the Dirt Farming and Goat hurding level eventually.

[19:17] <NickE> 16 here and thast too young

[19:17] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> here you can't buy fireworks, but you can buy black power and roll your own

[19:17] <NickE> worse?

[19:17] <SpaceCowboy> 18 in Washington State.

[19:17] <Harry_Redd> It's "Too young" due to the System of (non) education in responsibilities, and it's the same here.

[19:18] <SpaceCowboy> But illegal in most communities and *all* the cities.

[19:18] <vilstef> There's a ban on fancy fireworks in Iowa where I'm at. That doesn't stop people from buying them in Missouri.

[19:18] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> in scottdale you can buy ONE sparkler

[19:18] <Harry_Redd> Here, it'd 21 and dependant on location. Some counties allow it and some don't.

[19:18] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> on your birthday

[19:19] <hankster> Only place in Oz that you can get fireworks legally is Canberra! Same with X rated p0rn

[19:19] <growler> I don't quite get the complaints about illegals in the U.S. I find it hard to believe that it's such a problem - surely they come seeking employment that exists. If it didn't, they wouldn't. Can't help but feel it's a dleiberately hghlighted 'wedge' issue designed to deflect attention from something far more important. Y'know, like the abrogation of the bill of rights.

[19:19] <NickE> 's stupid. You can fuck, marry, smoke and buy high explosive at 16, but you can't drive, drink, vote or have gay sex. Soooo sensible

[19:19] <growler> I disagree with that concept - that there's a single magic age where someone is responsible...

[19:19] <NickE> Aye

[19:20] <Harry_Redd> You exoect Sense from the Media and from Politicians?

[19:20] <NickE> no

[19:20] <growler> ...ideals don't neccessarily match pragmatic reality - and peoples abilities and social opportunities don't tidily converge to a responsible adult at X age.

[19:20] <NickE> but thats the damn law of teh land

[19:20] <SpaceCowboy> Down with chronological age as the standard! IQ and a common sense test!!

[19:21] <NickE> :-)

[19:21] <growler> A person who'se old enough to fight in the military doesn't have to be a person responsible neouh on their own for some other issues - they've got NCO's to llok after them.

[19:21] <Harry_Redd> I'd propose Citizenship tests starting at age 16, but I wouldn't have passed untill I was past 30. SOme people would never pass one; provided the test was compiled by rational people.

[19:21] <NickE> :-)

[19:21] <vilstef> At age 10 I had more commonsense than 70% of the adults I knew

[19:21] <growler>[cynic] Indeed you want a certain immaturity in soldiers - that way they're easier to direct as you will [/cynic]

[19:22] <Harry_Redd> Yeah, but screw up and the responsibility issue talls like a ton of Square pointy things on you Growler.

[19:22] <NickE> true enough. I trust my kids, but the rest....

[19:22] <vilstef> Immaturity contributes greatly to the cannon fodder ethic

[19:23] <Harry_Redd> A n 18 year old will charge up a hill for "the honor of the Flag... A thirty year old needs better reasons.

[19:23] <growler> Responsibility should be conferred in steps and stages, and it is. That's why ages differ for things.

[19:23] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> no, they don't come here for employment that exists.

[19:23] <hankster> That was the premise behind Star Troopers

[19:23] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> vast numbers of them are unemployed

[19:23] <vilstef> A 30 year old wants it softened up with morter fire first.

[19:23] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> and the crime rate shoots upwards

[19:24] <Harry_Redd> And ARTILLERY Vil :-)

[19:24] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> they come regardless of employment

[19:24] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> because there isn't any where they left

[19:24] <vilstef> Lots of artillery!

[19:24] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> we don't have employment, but we have handouts

[19:24] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> we give them benefits and medical care

[19:24] <NickE> Funny how age chages you perspective (or having kids, that's one of the big perspective changers)

[19:24] <Harry_Redd> Mind that "Responsibility" has different meanings in diferent cultures too.

[19:25] <NickE> brb

[19:25] <SpaceCowboy> But to qualify for handouts you need a Social Security # and to get that you need to be a citizen. (Except for some charities...)

[19:25] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> no you don't

[19:25] <growler> Two days until the mid-terms - watch what that electronic box to you!@

[19:26] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> all you need for medical treatment is to present yourself

[19:26] <Harry_Redd> Phony ID's work quite well in Arizona SC.

[19:27] <SpaceCowboy> I'd say that's more of an enforcement than legislative issue, Frank.

[19:28] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> legislative is trying to make IDs non existent

[19:28] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> hell, they almost managed to make it so anybody could vote in this electin

[19:28] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> no ID required

[19:28] <SpaceCowboy> Making more restrictive laws is like pissing in tghe wind if the ones we have now aren't being enforced.

[19:28] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> that only got overturned at the last moment

[19:28] <vilstef> If the phonies work, that really puts any verification into question

[19:29] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> I don't know what you'd need a phony ID for

[19:29] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> like I said, medical care requires no ID

[19:30] <Harry_Redd> You start with making the b9order less "poreus" then deporting the illegals you catch. All laws on the books.

[19:30] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> You start by replacing Janet Napalitano

[19:31] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> who's on record as not wanting to 'criminalize illegal aliens'

[19:31] <Harry_Redd> Agreed Fred.

[19:31] <SpaceCowboy> Who and where is this woman, Fred?

[19:31] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> our governor

[19:31] <Harry_Redd> Guv of Arizona S.

[19:32] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> who made it a priority to make it a jailable offense for my mom to feed the bunny rabbits outside her bedroom window

[19:32] <SpaceCowboy> Ah. Yes, she needs to be bitchslapped, that's irresponsible.

[19:32] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> and who told local law enforement NOT to do anything when they catch illegal aliens

[19:32] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> "catch and release"

[19:32] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> she says it's a federal problem

[19:33] <SpaceCowboy> What I said.

[19:33] <vilstef> Guess no one told her all politics are local.

[19:33] <Harry_Redd> I don't think she's ever read the Constitution of the State of Arizona either Fred.

[19:34] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> doubt she'd understand it if she did :)

[19:34] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> she'll win though. nobody really running against her.

[19:35] <vilstef> Most of the lawyers in the legislatures don't seem to grasp the meaning of a Constitution.

[19:35] <Harry_Redd> I don't think so Fred. Lots of Democrats are Sick of her... Even Phoenix Democrats!

[19:35] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> what's amazing is that all of our political ads, they're just attack ads on the other guy. They don't say what the person running is for, or even what party they're in.

[19:35] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> we have signs here for a woman from India, just her name and picture.

[19:36] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> don't even say what she's running for!

[19:36] <Harry_Redd> Republicans tend to identify themselves. Libertarians ALWAYS identify themselves and profess atleast some policy. Democrats NEVER identify themselves.

[19:36] <vilstef> It's that way about everywhere, if you don't know their political affiliation, you won't find it on their yard sign.

[19:37] <Treehugger> People, it's been a hoot as always, but I'm off to get dinner. See you on the list!

[19:37] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> yes, but this year it's not on their TV ads either

[19:37] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> night tree!

[19:37] <NickE> Night George!

[19:37] <Treehugger> Bye all!

[19:37] <Harry_Redd> Adios Tree

[19:37] <vilstef> In Iowa this cycle, I haven't seen any signs with a political party ID.

[19:37] * Treehugger has quit IRC (Quit: *g0ne*)

[19:37] <SpaceCowboy> Could be one of those "social experiments" where they ask people to sign a petition to make di-hydrogen oxide illegal because the government says it's OK for it to be put in anything.

[19:37] <NickE> :-)

[19:38] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> The Pederson ads are hysterical. His are him saying he's paid his bills, the other side are the people he's screwed, saying "oh yeah? he still owes me $46,000"

[19:38] <growler> and it's such a powerful solvent

[19:38] <Harry_Redd> Vil, Igf you loo,k closley at the Republican signs, there's a styalized elephant on it.

[19:38] <NickE> Fi'?

[19:38] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> and the democrat signs are all red white and blue

[19:38] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> trying to trick you :)

[19:39] <vilstef> I don't recall seeing the stylized R or the stylized elephant on *any* I've seen. And I do know who is in what party.

[19:40] <Harry_Redd> Must be difrent that Up here in Central AZ

[19:40] <vilstef> The Democratic for Gov in my state has Green & Yellow signs.

[19:40] <Harry_Redd> Somehow that figures.

[19:41] <vilstef> The Republican's is Red White & Blue

[19:41] <vilstef> Neither is an incumbant, it's an open governorship this year in Iowa.

[19:42] <Harry_Redd> That sounds like Fun Vil.

[19:42] <vilstef> They're going at each other tooth and nail. It's entertaining.

[19:43] <SpaceCowboy> "Laugh about it, shout about it, but when you have to choose ..."

[19:43] <vilstef> Our soon to be ex Gov is a Democrat who had Republican majorities against him his whole 8 years. He has Presidential ambitions. I don't think he has a snowball's chance.

[19:43] <SpaceCowboy> "Any way you look at it --"

[19:44] <Harry_Redd> Truly.

[19:45] <hankster> But the problem is with all the behaving like schoolkids, you have to wonder if they can behave like adults when they get to governemnt

[19:46] <Harry_Redd> Hank, they will behave like kids in a candy shop with the shop owner out to lunch!

[19:46] <vilstef> Considering the past six years in the US, I'd say no. We need a remedial class for our "lawmakers."

[19:46] <hankster> have to go guys, it's been fun but It is Sunday here and I'm going on a boat cruise in a couple of hours. Things to do, places to see

[19:46] <Harry_Redd> Adios then Hankster. Have fun.

[19:46] <vilstef> Enjoy it Hank!

[19:47] <vilstef> CYA

[19:47] <NickE> ummm...gonna sign off, 's late (like 20 to 1 in the am) and y'all talking american politics, so I'm gonna finish my malt and f**k of to bed, Lot of this was a blast, see Larry's still on, but suspect he's just not signed off. as have several others. So I'll bid you all a fond farewell, and catch you all later on the list. Frank, take care pal, still thinking of you, Fred, Larry, Sean, Euan, Gene, Chris, Wayne, Mark, Fred, Bil', 's been a pleasure as always

[19:47] <SpaceCowboy> We had a whole party some years ago whose party platform consisted of "...turning the whole state upside down, scraping the s**t off it and giving it back to the Indians." Bye, Hank!

[19:47] <Harry_Redd> Thanks NickE. Adios .

[19:47] <vilstef> Bye Hank

[19:47] <NickE> actaulayy nearer 10 to 1 since i finished typin that!

[19:48] <SpaceCowboy> Night, Nick.

[19:48] * hankster has quit IRC (Quit: *g0ne*)

[19:49] <SpaceCowboy> Show of hands: who *is* actually here?

[19:49] <Harry_Redd> HEre

[19:49] <growler> me, but I'm off to do some shopping. Ciao.

[19:49] <vilstef> I am, at least in spirit :)

[19:49] * growler has quit IRC

[19:49] <NickE> not me :-)

[19:50] <NickE> Nighty Night. Been good.

[19:50] * NickE has quit IRC

[19:51] <SpaceCowboy> Well, I agree, it has been good again. But I think I'm going to get a little work done, gents, so I bid you goodnight as well.

[19:51] <Harry_Redd> Have a good one SC. I'm going to leave too.

[19:52] <vilstef> I have to work my weekend job in a few hours, I'm out too.

[19:52] <SpaceCowboy> Night!

[19:52] * Harry_Redd has left #knownspace

[19:52] <vilstef> Night all

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[20:00] * lambert has joined #knownspace

[20:00] <lambert> what did I miss? what did i miss?

[20:00] <lambert> (hi everyone)

[20:02] <lambert> hmm, everyone is AFK?

[20:08] <lambert> bueller?

[20:09] * lambert has quit IRC (Quit: *g0ne*)

[20:29] * lambert has joined #knownspace

[20:29] <lambert> hello? still idle?

[20:31] * lambert is now known as mitty

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[20:33] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> like flies they drop

[20:37] <SeanS> the bueller comment was funny

[20:43] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> si

[20:44] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> Sean, you aren't perchance in Texas are you?

[21:11] * senax has joined #knownspace

[21:11] <senax> Hi.

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[21:49] * FrGeek has joined #knownspace

[21:50] <FrGeek> Helloeveryone

[21:50] <FrGeek> Not all at once

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[22:43] * senax has joined #knownspace

[22:54] * senax has left #knownspace

[22:54] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> HI FRGEEK!!

[23:12] <FrGeek> Oh hi

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Session Time: Sun Nov 05 00:00:00 2006

[00:07] * caroltesting has joined #knownspace

[00:08] <caroltesting> Hello.

[00:08] * caroltesting is now known as REdflame

[00:08] <REdflame> Grrr. I can only change my nick once?

[00:09] <REdflame> Is anyone actually here?

[00:09] * REdflame is now known as FlyingDragon

[00:11] <FlyingDragon> I can't hear any of you, if you are really here.

[00:11] <FlyingDragon> Maybe the internet is just REALLY slow tonight, and all of you are chatting away, and I'm just not seeing any of it.

[00:11] <FlyingDragon> Maybe _I'M_ just moving really really fast, and the words are just zipping across your screen.

[00:12] <FlyingDragon> Maybe I could go away, soak in the spa with the kids, adn come back, and you all would have JUST managed to say "Hello, Dragon, how are the dragonettes?"

[00:12] * FlyingDragon is now known as SoakingDragon

[00:54] * SoakingDragon is now known as WetDragon

[00:54] <WetDragon> Has anyone looked at their screen, and had a change to type any letters, or am I zipping so fast nothing has happened in your world yet?

[00:55] <WetDragon> Maybe people are still trying to catch up on all my messages?

[00:55] <WetDragon> <sigh>

[00:55] <WetDragon> Going to read to the dragonettes and go to sleep.

[00:55] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> wet

[00:56] <WetDragon> Oooh! Someone caught up with me!

[00:56] <WetDragon> Galaxy, are you Redd?

[00:56] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> Fred

[00:56] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> you Carol?

[00:57] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> yeah

[00:57] <WetDragon> Yes, Fred

[00:57] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> there's a delay on name changing

[00:57] <WetDragon> Is anyone else here?

[00:57] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> you can change it as much as you want, but you have to wait a minute or something

[00:57] <WetDragon> I noticed that sometimse it takes a long time.

[00:57] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> I don't think anybody else is really here

[00:57] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> I think they all forgot to log off :)

[00:58] <WetDragon> I usually use Trillian, but for some reason, it won't run, so I came in through Known Space.

[00:58] <WetDragon> Larry was here today?

[00:58] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> yep

[00:58] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> he didn't say much

[00:58] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> but of course every word from him is gold :)

[00:58] <WetDragon> These smiles are from my littlist dragonette: :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

[00:59] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> hey little dragonetter :D

[00:59] <WetDragon> Yes, every word is gold. :-D

[00:59] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> larry said Fleet of Worlds is done

[00:59] <WetDragon> As in.... off to the printer?

[00:59] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> dunno

[01:00] <WetDragon> I thought they were through writing in a while back. Maybe it was still being edited.

[01:00] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> and juggler of worlds is half done, a sigmund ausfaller book

[01:00] <WetDragon> Clara wants to see "colored words" She really likes your blue words.

[01:00] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> hee hee

[01:00] <WetDragon> That red doesn't show up well.

[01:00] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> Clara was my grandmother's name

[01:01] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> Norwegian

[01:01] <WetDragon> How interesting! It was her grandmother's name too!

[01:01] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> Haven't heard that name in a long long time

[01:01] <WetDragon> Clara Martinson was Swedish.

[01:01] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> Clara Stixrud

[01:01] <WetDragon> This red shows up WELL in bold!

[01:01] <WetDragon> Neato!

[01:01] <WetDragon> Clara the grandmother however, was Klara.

[01:01] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> bold

[01:02] <WetDragon> :-)

[01:02] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> that was for clara :)

[01:02] <WetDragon> She wondered why you said bold in bold. I told her it was so she could see what blue looked like in bold.

[01:03] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> hee hee

[01:03] <WetDragon> Sorry I missed the chat, but I had fun party hopping today.

[01:03] <WetDragon> Now, my daughter want me to read to her. It has been a LONG day.

[01:03] <WetDragon> Take care, Fred!

[01:05] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> u 2

[01:05] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> nite clara

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[01:07] <vilstef> Hello

[01:07] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> hey

[01:07] <vilstef> Wussup Fred?

[01:08] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> not much. watching BSG

[01:08] <vilstef> I'm at work. ALT weekend job. All night

[01:11] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> ack

[01:13] <vilstef> It's doing about 2 hours work and then spending the rest of the night surfing the internet & listening to tunes.

[01:14] <vilstef> Really wearing!

[01:21] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> heh

[01:21] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> I had all these open chat windows from earlier and suddenly they all came alive at once

[01:24] <vilstef> That's a bit odd

[01:52] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> si

[01:55] <vilstef> I've been here about an hour without doing anything-so since they're pretending to pay me, I should pretend to work

[01:55] <vilstef> That's such a great Polish saying!

[01:57] <vilstef> (Doing nothing if answering my email doesn't count. I have internet at my regular job, but they block outside email)

[02:01] * vilstef is now known as Inigo

[02:02] * Inigo is now known as InigoMontoya

[02:05] <InigoMontoya>

[02:25] <a_galaxy_of_FREDS> nite

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[08:59] * Disconnected

Session Close: Sun Nov 05 08:59:13 2006