Chat Log: May 1st, 2010

[02:20] Akiraa has joined #knownspace
[10:15] Lensman has joined #knownspace
[12:21] CrazyEddy has joined #knownspace
[12:50] CubesForsythe has joined #knownspace
[12:51] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Hello! I made the first saturday chat! *laugh of insanity*
[12:51] Lensman has joined #knownspace
[12:51] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Lens! Hi!
[12:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Hello Cubes!
[12:51] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I finally made a first saturday chat after months of missing it
[12:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Welcome!
[12:51] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: :D
[12:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Have you read any of the OF WORLDS books?
[12:52] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: You raised very good points in your response to my post. You're right, I remember now that living space wasn't the reason for the ring.
[12:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, are you reading the list posts?
[12:53] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I've read Fleet, Juggler and Destroyer
[12:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Do you post there? Maybe under another name? I don't recall seeing "Cubes".
[12:53] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: yeah, I post as Cubes, but email address is ""
[12:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Well I should hasten to say that's just my fan theory. Larry may not agree with me about the living space thing. Altho apparently that was his idea in 1981.
[12:54] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I'm the one who isn't bothered by retcons :P
[12:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Good for you!
[12:55] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: But yeah, I've read Fleet, Juggler and Destroyer
[12:55] #knownspace> Lensman: I had a good friend (sadly passed away) who just *loved* movies! All movies, any movies. He had a review column in a local paper and he gave very nearly all movies three or four stars. I *wish* I could love movies, and books, the way he did.
[12:56] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: "Always look on - the bright - side of life" *whistles*
[12:56] #knownspace> Lensman: So, if you don't mind addressing the subject, do you see a difference in the way Puppeteers are presented in the new books? Are they more aggressive and threatening, less benign, than they were in RINGWORLD ?
[12:56] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Nope
[12:57] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Have you seen my Kzin? I call her (Cachula?) riit, I keep it as a pet
[12:57] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I mean, that's just as bold as in the fleet books
[12:57] #knownspace> Lensman: You're quoting Nessus?
[12:57] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Yeah, but I botched the spelling I'm sure
[12:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Hard to know just how much of that was calculated and how much Nessus' madness.
[12:58] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Also, Nessus mentioned (not having to) exterminate the Kzinti, which would have been just as genocidal
[12:59] #knownspace> Lensman: I think he manipulated things to get a very specific Kzin-- Speaker. Speaker had the ability to pilot in hyperspace, which according to later stories is rare in a Kzin.
[13:00] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I guess the new books takes away a little of the mystery, but to me that's exciting. If writers made mysteries up just because they were mysterious, and never addressed them, I'd feel cheated or something. I like answers, even if they challenge the way I think. Did you watch the new Battlestar Galactica? Like that.
[13:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Sure, the Puppeteers *considered* exterminating the Kzinti, but they didn't. They settled for blunting their aggression. It's very hard for me to see how the Puppeteers as presented in the OF WORLDS books wouldn't have simply exterminated them as a threat, or at least smashed them back to stone age barbarians. Even a lesser threat is more of a threat than Humans are, and they had decided to...
[13:01] #knownspace> Lensman: ...smash all the Human worlds in FOW!
[13:02] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Well, how much of what we saw in the fleet books was Achille's madness, or the calculated decisions of the species as a whole?
[13:02] #knownspace> Lensman: "You never met my kzin, Kchula-Rrit? I keep it as a pet."
[13:02] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I knew I spelled it wrong :)
[13:04] #knownspace> Lensman: As a reminder, in FOW the Hindmost and his advisers had decided to smash all the Human worlds with kinetic kill weapons, to keep Humans from discovering their world. Nessus managed to talk the then-Hindmost out of it by promising to distract the ARM with a Birthright Lottery scandal.
[13:04] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Yeah, and that seems odd to me
[13:05] #knownspace> Lensman: You were close! I didn't remember the line at all, just the situation.
[13:05] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: a kinetic kill weapon is a big deal
[13:05] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: There's so much risk involved in using one
[13:05] #knownspace> Lensman: "Odd". Okay, you say "odd", I say out of character. Seems to be the same action.
[13:06] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Indeed
[13:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Exactly! That's not how the Puppeteers operate-- it's much too direct.
[13:06] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: But at the same time, I'd also say that Hitler was out of character for humanity
[13:07] #knownspace> Lensman: So the decision of that Hindmost's administration was an aberration? Well, no. The Puppeteers were going to do the same thing to the Gw'oth.
[13:07] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: The problem with fictional characters like this is that they are the only representatives we have. There aren't any stories where you get to read about th borring life of *musical bleat* the borring puppeteer who does nothing
[13:07] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL
[13:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Good point.
[13:08] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: we only ever get to read about the crazy ones, and I think it's on purpose. I remember Louis saying or thinking or reflecting that a human has never met a sane puppeteer
[13:09] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: and now the most insane ones, the experimentalists, are in power (as of destroyer)
[13:09] #knownspace> Lensman: I just think it is a pretty strong contradiction for the Puppeteers to decide to smash all the Human worlds, which were much less of a threat, and *not* smash the Kzinti worlds, which were much *more* of a threat.
[13:09] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Yeah, but I wonder who was in power at the time the Kzinti were discovered. In both situations, they opted to do a selective breeding program instead
[13:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, Nike took power at the end of FOW, and has been in power in the sequels. Except during the first part of JOW, which was set in an earlier time.
[13:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Ohhhh... excellent point! Selective breeding program to deal with the threatening aliens.
[13:11] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I also feel that we're missing the last pieces of the puzzle. DoW ended with so many loose ends
[13:11] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: How are the Gw'oth going to avoid destruction now that they have hyperdrive, the location of the fleet, and are scary smart?
[13:12] #knownspace> Lensman: One of my correspondents calls it "Destroyer of Continuity". I see it like the new "Star Trek" movie-- lots of fun, exciting, but don't stop and think about the plot for more than half a second! ...well okay, it's not nearly as *bad* as "Star Trek", but only in that it's a lesser degree of plot not making sense.
[13:14] #knownspace> Lensman: The Gw'oth can achieve relative safety by the Mutual Assured Destruction scenario.
[13:14] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I guess the only thing about DoW that makes me crazy is when the outsiders pop up and say "OH HI THERE, GUESS WHAT I GOT ALICE, YOU WANT? LOL"
[13:15] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Protector's probably my favorite story of KS, so any reference to it was awesome for me, but I am confused now, because pulling her to the "future" like that killed all speculation I've had for the past years
[13:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Actually, if you consider the possibility-- which does occur to Siggy, BTW-- the possibility that the Outsiders knew *exactly* what they were selling the New Terrans, it makes perfect sense. That is, the Outsiders were *pretending* not to interfere, but were interfering up to the roots of their tentacles!
[13:15] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I once sent Larry an email, and it talked about Louis Wu
[13:16] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Yeah, but how could they have gotten it? I would love to think that Truesdale had extrapolated the Outsiders' existence or had even contacted them
[13:16] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Or not truesdale, but Brennan
[13:17] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Anyways, he told me that "family dynamics" were going to be hashed out in Betrayer of worlds
[13:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Quoting from a note for my Timeline for Known Space:
[13:17] #knownspace> Lensman: The idea that Carlos Wu's' son Louis is the same Louis Wu from "There Is a Tide" and Ringworld has been questioned, because Louis knew nothing of the Long Shot and its original pilot (Ringworld, pp. 50-1). It is hard to reconcile this with Bey, the Long Shot's first pilot, being Louis' stepfather from infancy. However, in the later "Procrustes", Bey is forced to leave the four-year-old Louis...
[13:17] #knownspace> Lensman: ...with Carlos after he and Sharrol flee from Earth. If Louis never saw Bey again, this would provide a reasonable answer to the objection. Andy Love, a member of the LarryNiven-L Internet list, states "Marcus Irby wrote to Niven asking if that was his intention and Niven replied in the affirmative. So my understanding is that the Louis Wu who went to [Ringworld] is the Louis Wu who is...
[13:17] #knownspace> Lensman: ...Sharrol's son."
[13:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Are you this Marcus Irby?
[13:18] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Marcus Irby? No...
[13:18] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Anyways, but those contradictions are what I took to Niven, and an idea
[13:19] #knownspace> Lensman: You mean Brennan, not Truesdale. /Protector/ says Brennan knows why Outsiders follow starseeds. So he knows more than we do about them!
[13:20] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: What if Louis had worked with Nessus before Ringworld. That way Nessus would trust him enough to approach him for RW. Also, if Louis had had his memory wiped, it would explain the contradicitons in his thinking. (Louis said he was raised a flatlander and hadn't seen the stars, but we know he lived on Fafnir and then Home. He would have seen the stars.)
[13:21] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: We know that Nessus has no problem at all lying to Louis, because he admitted to not being able to catch that "other" lucky candidate. ALways one transfer booth jump behind him
[13:21] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: when he transfer booth-kidnapped Louis!
[13:21] #knownspace> Lensman: You think Brennan deliberately sent Alice to where she'd be picked up by the Outsiders? Interesting, that hadn't occurred to me. Frankly it seems strange to me. Outsiders are known for selling knowledge... since when do they pick up derelict starships and transport them to sell them to their species?
[13:21] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: We know he can kidnap people at will and erase their memories
[13:22] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: When I took all of this to Larry, he simply told me that my assumptions were very good, and forwarded the email to EML
[13:22] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: EML told me that I'd thank him for not saying more
[13:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, unfortunately the retcons in later books keep adding to the number of statements by Nessus and Hindmost that we must consider to be lies. The whole thing in "The Soft Weapon" where Nessus talks about the Puppeteer Migration does not fit the Fleet of Worlds concept. So in JOW, that was retconned as lies Nessus told Jason to give him hope.
[13:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Which IMHO doesn't make much sense; there wasn't much hope given to Jason there.
[13:23] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: So I know that RW Louis if Procrustes Louis is Betrayer of Worlds Louis - the question is, how does he fit into "the family" ? To me the family has always included Brennan's family, and an unknown connection to Carlos or Bey. Now that's not possible
[13:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, I presume that in "Betrayer" that Nessus works with a younger Louis, and Louis has that memory wiped at the end of the book.
[13:25] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: We must work with the retcons, not against them.... muahahahahaa
[13:25] #knownspace> Lensman: And I'm sorry that I know that. What a plot spoiler!
[13:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Anyways, I have things I need to do. I'm going to go afk and just let the text roll here (so that even if I miss the authors maybe I can still read what's going on.) I plan on being back though
[13:26] #knownspace> Lensman: You lost me. How does Brennan fit into "Procrustes" ?
[13:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: and yeah, I am just dying to know what Louis doesn't remember
[13:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: oh, well, real quick, to me the stories have always been about family
[13:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: the bey stories connext to louis stories
[13:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: that's one family
[13:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: well, protector was also about family
[13:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, the "official" chat start time is Noon Pacific time... 90 minutes from now... and if Larry drops in, it's usually about an hour later. Unfortunately Ed won't be here today.
[13:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, stories about families, and you think they must be connected somehow.
[13:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Just because.
[13:28] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: when I heard that there would be a connection to protector in destroyer, then I thought maybe the two families could be connected, but that hope was dashed (I think) when alice popped out of the stasis box
[13:29] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: it was a thin hope, I admit, but now that I know it's wrong, I'm looking forward to learning something new
[13:29] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: also, EML told us that the message at the end of Protector was never beamed back to earth
[13:29] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: so
[13:29] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Where's Truesdale?
[13:29] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I still hold out hope that he's alive
[13:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, it's possible Truesdale survived.
[13:30] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: what a powerful ally the new terrans would have then?
[13:30] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: for he must protect his bloodline..
[13:30] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: anyways, ^-^ I'll be back later on
[13:30] #knownspace> Lensman: "...If allies are strong with power to protect me, might they not protect me out of all I own?"
[13:31] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: (watching sigmund interract with a human protector would be veyr entertaining!)
[13:31] #knownspace> Lensman: That song from "The King and I" seems incredibly appropriate for someone contemplating a protector as an ally!
[13:32] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: oh before I go, there was one more connection to Truesdale and Bey in my mind.
[13:32] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Truesdale conquered Home, and left
[13:33] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Carlos took the kinds and went to Home
[13:33] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Bey and Sharrol went to Home
[13:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Interesting, but I'm not sure the author meant an analogy there.
[13:33] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: When Louis and the Hindmost leave the Ringworld for the last time, the Hindmost tells him that Nessus on Home with their kids
[13:33] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: They go to Home
[13:34] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Everyone goes to Home
[13:34] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Home
[13:34] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: *dun dun dun*
[13:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, I know. Hence my joke that if we're doing KS Christmas songs, Hindmost's is "There's No Place Like Home for the Holidays". :)
[13:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I'm just saying, the planet seems to have some importance. I want a big reunion with carlos and bey and sharrol and nessus and hindmost and louis :P
[13:35] #knownspace> Lensman: They all get together for an orgy? :)
[13:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: ew
[13:36] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: >.<
[13:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Sorry.
[13:36] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: lol
[13:37] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Anyways, i'll be back later for real this time! :O I hope I don't miss Larry!
[15:06] dmac44 has joined #knownspace
[15:07] #knownspace> dmac44: hi guys. wasn't the topic last months topic?
[15:08] #knownspace> SeanS: havent changed the topic since last month. Any suggestions
[15:08] #knownspace> SeanS: ?
[15:16] #knownspace> dmac44: 44. Why didn't stage trees (A Relic of the Empire) establish themselves on Earth and the other habitable planets of Known Space?
[15:18] #knownspace> SeanS: we'll throw it up there
[15:19] #knownspace> Lensman: The obvious answer is they couldn't compete with the local vegetation. That's not a very *interesting* answer, though.
[15:21] #knownspace> dmac44: yeah, something capable of crossing interstellar space and then falling down in the last yard sounds like a contradiction.
[15:23] #knownspace> dmac44: ... or, are they just now moving into our region of the galaxy?
[15:27] Jim has joined #knownspace
[15:27] #knownspace> SeanS: hi Jim
[15:27] #knownspace> Jim: hi
[15:29] #knownspace> dmac44: Seems like we need another topic. Anyone have any ideas?
[15:29] #knownspace> Jim: what have you been talking about
[15:31] #knownspace> SeanS: I havent been talking much. Getting ready to go to a Derby Party
[15:31] #knownspace> Jim: is the derby today?
[15:31] #knownspace> SeanS: yep
[15:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Talking earlier with Cubes about: Why didn't the Puppeteers wipe out the Kzinti?
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Even after their aggression was blunted, they are *still* a much bigger threat to the Puppeteers than Humans are. If the Puppeteers came to the knife's edge of killing off all the Human worlds with kinetic-kill weapons, why not the Kzinti?
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Just like they planned to smash the Gw'oth back to the stone age.
[15:34] #knownspace> dmac44: Astropolitical decision. Either wipe out all intelligent life who might someday be able to reach you or balance them off of each other.
[15:35] #knownspace> Lensman: I maintain the Puppeteers as portrayed in the OF WORLDS books are *much* more aggressive than they have been portrayed in previous stories.
[15:35] #knownspace> Jim: not really
[15:37] #knownspace> dmac44: when you're staying in one place trying to wipe out an intelligent speices is more dangerous than doing it while you're on the run. On the run they have to recover and catch up with you. Staying in one place means they may recover and find you.
[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: In FOW they were "on the run" at what? Seven percent of lightspeed? Since Humans and Kzinti have hyperdrive, that's meaningless.
[15:38] #knownspace> dmac44: the gwo'th didn't have hyperdrive
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: No, the very same decisions in FOW which lead the Hindmost and his advisers to decide on a plan to wipe out all Human worlds would have lead to a plan to wipe out all the Kzinti worlds-- and much sooner!
[15:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Yet they planned to smash the Gw'oth back to the stone age with a meteor impact.
[15:40] #knownspace> dmac44: they couldn't be sure they'd get all kziniti or humans. much safer to have humans and kziniti compete against each other
[15:40] #knownspace> Lensman: I think that supports my case *very* well-- the Gw-oth were not a threat at *all* yet they decided to use a kinetic kill weapon on their planet! How, then, did they *not* do the same to the Kzinti?
[15:41] #knownspace> Jim: yes they were
[15:41] #knownspace> Lensman: But they *did* decide to wipe out the Humans! It was only Nessus' intervention that stopped the plan.
[15:41] #knownspace> dmac44: don't agree. When they're leaving ks why try and kill off kzinti and humans which, as you pointed out, have the hyperdrive
[15:42] #knownspace> Lensman: They were not leaving KS when their plan to blunt the aggression of the Kzinti was carried out.
[15:43] #knownspace> dmac44: right, they decided to play the humans off the kziniti (and I suspect the trinoc and other races too).
[15:43] #knownspace> Lensman: And as I said, leaving at 7% lightspeed doesn't change the strategic situation at all.
[15:43] #knownspace> dmac44: it does when you're killing off races that don't have the hyperdrive
[15:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Dmac: Yet as shown in Rw, the Kzinti were still a threat. So, if the Puppeteers were willing to live with a lesser threat from the Kzinti, why decide to wipe out the Humans, and why decide to smash the Gw'oth world?
[15:44] #knownspace> Lensman: It is *entirely* inconsistant.
[15:45] #knownspace> Lensman: It's not even consistent within the OF WORLDS books-- they can use kinetic-kill weapons on the Kzinti worlds at any time. So why not do it?
[15:46] #knownspace> dmac44: I don't see it as inconsistant. They had no one to play the Gw'oth off against. They're on the run (accelerating). Smash one moon and run vesus trying to find every human and kziniti in ks and kill them. That's too dangerous
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: And as Cubes pointed out earlier, it's out of character for the Puppeteers to attack so directly as to use kinetic kill weapons. That does not at *all* fit with a species that would be so subtle as to indirectly lead an Outsider ship to a Human colony to give the hyperdrive to Humans to blunt the Kzinti expansion! Now *that* is the kind of subtle planning that *real* Puppeteers do. These...
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: ...guys in the OF WORLDS books-- I don't know who they are, but they're not Puppeteers.
[15:48] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman: you are full of it
[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: We don't do that in this chat room.
[15:50] #knownspace> Lensman: And there's the situation in "A Relic of the Empire" where one single Human pirate ship holds Hearth hostage, plundering three Puppeteer trade ships serially, and waiting around for some time before leaving.
[15:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Contrast that to FOW, where the Puppeteers *immediately* send a ship full of robots to the /Long Pass/ to board it by making holes in the hull, and taking the Humans inside prisoner or killing them.
[15:51] #knownspace> Lensman: And they did that *centuries* before the "Relic" incident!
[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Again, the behavior indicates two different cultures with two different psychologies.
[15:52] #knownspace> Jim: ask
[15:52] #knownspace> Jim: ask EML and Larry
[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: I have discussed this in private e-mails with Ed.
[15:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Unlike you, he doesn't claim there is no difference.
[15:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed talks about *why* there is a difference.
[15:54] #knownspace> dmac44: what did ed say?
[15:54] #knownspace> Jim: EML is not here yet; what does he say?
[15:56] #knownspace> dmac44: it this one of the differences between the two main puppeteer political parties?
[15:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed said he won't be here today.
[15:56] #knownspace> dmac44: or is it the difference between "turn and kick" and a reasoned and nuanced approach?
[15:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Basically, as I recall Ed said it's a matter of perception. That we had a naive and incomplete view of the Puppeteers, and only with the OF WORLDS books do we get a more complete picture of the Puppeteers and their motives.
[15:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Dmac: That's one thing Cubes suggested earlier; a difference between different Puppeteer administrations. Cubes used the example of Hitler.
[15:58] #knownspace> Lensman: And that's a good point; just because one Hindmost's administration adopts a certain foreign policy, that doesn't mean the next will.
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Contrast Bush Jr's "You're either with us or against us" policy, as contrasted with... well, very nearly *any* other president.
[15:59] #knownspace> Jim: Nessus' behavior is not characteristic of his species. For one, he is bipolar.
[15:59] #knownspace> dmac44: or maybe tri-polar :)
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Nessus is also pro-Human, possibly more than *any* other Puppeteer is.
[16:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Certainly he's had more pro-Human effect on Puppeteer policy towards Humans than any other Puppeteer!
[16:03] #knownspace> Jim: Nessus is also psychologically scared from his early experiences on the PP homeworld.
[16:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes.
[16:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Scarred.
[16:05] #knownspace> Jim: thank you
[16:06] #knownspace> dmac44: I suggest that Nessus was purposely created to be crazy (by puppeteer standrds) becuase they need to have puppeteers who will leave Hearth and conduct business elsewhere. This is one of those Hindmost's secrets.
[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: That's pretty cold. Which is not to say you're wrong.
[16:07] #knownspace> dmac44: And further that the Puppeteers could cure him but again, that capability is another Hindmost secret.
[16:08] #knownspace> dmac44: As to why I think this, they've been around (from a technological perspective) for over a million years. They must have learned a lot, especially about themselves.
[16:09] CubesForsythe has joined #knownspace
[16:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Now that you mention it, it does seem strange that Humans have conquered all mental illness with hormone therapy and psychistry, but the Puppeteers haven't. That suggests that perhaps they deliberately allow nature to take its course in causing insanity in some Puppeteers, because they do need their mad ones.
[16:09] #knownspace> Jim: cubes!
[16:09] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Hi
[16:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Welcome back, Cubes.
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: So, what is the fallout of Nessus' mental scars?
[16:10] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Did I miss the main event?
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Nope.
[16:10] #knownspace> Jim: no
[16:10] #knownspace> dmac44: I think it's more than nature taking its course, I think they do it deliberately. And, yes it's cold.
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: He (well, actually "she") is less gregarious than most Puppeteers. More able to stand loneliness.
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Yet in "The Soft Weapon" and in the OF WORLDS books, he is driven to hang out with humans because he needs company.
[16:11] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I agree with Dmac, I think it's on purpose that they keep their caution.
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Not really a contradiction, as I see it... just that after awhile, even Nessus needs company.
[16:12] #knownspace> Jim: OT: I am listening to a folk song entitled "Outside F****** Starts Today".
[16:12] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: well, but by then Nessus had just heard from the Outsiders
[16:12] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: stuff was going down, he was nervous, and was already very used to working with humans
[16:13] #knownspace> dmac44: after all the puppeteers control the transfer booth network on earth. How hard would it be for a Hindmost to introduce a virus into Nessus' "mother's' food during pregency? Or his fathers(?) before conception?
[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: He was coming down from driving himself to madness to deal with the Outsiders, so he was on the depressive cycle and needed comfort? Is that what you're saying?
[16:14] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: a bravery virus? and yes, I think that's what I'm saying
[16:14] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: After all, he calmed down when Teela comforted him before they left for the RW. She called him cute
[16:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Dmac: Sure, it would be possible. But Puppeteers seem pretty protective of their Citizens.
[16:15] #knownspace> dmac44: a virus to give change his dna to make him slightly mad in the way they need. After all, a virus changes humans to protectors.
[16:15] #knownspace> Lensman: I note that Puppeteers still breed naturally, in a setting which is designed to appear natural (the "Harem Houses"). Perhaps, similarly, they have a "hands off" approach to detecting and preventing mutations and birth defects.
[16:16] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: manipulating the brides probably wouldn't be as much a crime
[16:16] #knownspace> dmac44: they're manupulative SOBs and for the good of the whole herd would sacrifice a few
[16:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, dmac. The question is, do they *need* to.
[16:16] #knownspace> dmac44: fair question.
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: I suggest a refusal to try to detect and treat such aberrations "in the womb" is sufficient, but of course your fan theory is equally valid.
[16:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Not that Puppeteers have wombs.
[16:18] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I tend to agree with you Lens, though about this. If the insanity that they look for is common enough to have a branch of the government staffed by by it, then what's the point of inducing it?
[16:19] #knownspace> dmac44: I suspect you can argue it eiher way. With a trillion puppeteers how many would naturally be crazy (even with advanced technology). Or, given advanced technology they'd need to artifically create crazy puppeteers beause their technology is good enough to prevent all crazy ones.
[16:19] #knownspace> Lensman: I suppose according to dmac's theory, it's not really that common. It's just introduced that frequently.
[16:21] #knownspace> Jim: Will Larry be here?
[16:22] #knownspace> Lensman: I think Cubes is right, tho; infecting the brides probably carries less risk than directly infecting a Puppeteer. And it would explain why someone born into a relatively high-status family, as Nessus was if I recall correctly, would wind up as one of the victims. Otherwise, you'd expect it to be only low-status and politically undesirables who would wind up with crazy kids.
[16:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Have not heard from Larry, so hopefully he'll be here. Altho usually he shows up before this.
[16:24] #knownspace> dmac44: of course if it was only low caste kids someone might notice that the crazy distrbution was not evenly spread across the population and begin to ask imbarissing questions.
[16:24] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Lens: this is off topic from what we're talking about at the moment, but I'm curious to find out what you think of the Jotoki? They were supposed to have a trade empire, and all of that. How come they don't show up in any of the P'teers worries? They aren't extinct, are they?
[16:25] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Yeah, it would be an "open secret" I suppose.
[16:25] #knownspace> dmac44: and that could bring down a government
[16:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: No need to worry about off-topic. Off topic is typical for chat rooms!
[16:25] #knownspace> dmac44: lunch, I'll be back
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: No, the Jotoki are not extinct. They are mentioned in "Fly-By-Night"-- there is a Jotok character in the story.
[16:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Yes you're right, I remember now!
[16:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: So, when the p'teers discover the Gw'oth, why didn't they say "Oh look, those remind me of the Jotoki."
[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: What do I think of them? In what respect? Are you asking my opinion about the continuity problem of the Kzinti developing their own tech, as specified in "The Soft Weapon", versus the Kzinti taking over the Jotok Empire, as specified in the MKW stories?
[16:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Cause from everything I can tell, they are very much a like.
[16:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: LOL! Everybody thinks the Jotoki and Gw'oth are related. Including me.
[16:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed has to keep correcting fans: The Jotoki are air-breathers as adults; the Gw'oth are water-breathers. Not related.
[16:30] #knownspace> Lensman: I certainly find it confusing. I don't think Ed and Larry realized there would be confusion. I think they would make them more different if they had it to do over again. But heck, a Human actually calls a Gw'oth a "Starfish" in DOW!
[16:30] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Right, but even if they aren't related they are still alike. Why would the Gw'oth be such a mystery to them then? In Fleet it took Nessus forever to realize that they share a brain, but surely the p'teers would have known about the Jotoki. The p'teers had an empire and watched kzin expansion from afar. Therefore they must have known that the Jotoki were conquered, and that they once had an empire not dissimilar to their own
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: Maybe Nessus doesn't see the similarity that we see. Alien viewpoint.
[16:32] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Lens: Good point I suppose, but how many creatures share a brain? Hmm.
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: One thing I find fascinating is that in "At the Core", the Puppeteer mentions trade with a sizable number of alien races. Yet in the OF WORLDS books, we see none of that. You'd think the Puppeteers don't trade with anyone but Humans and Outsiders in those books! Who are the other species?
[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Or is this being retconned as another Puppeteer lie?
[16:35] #knownspace> Jim: The OF WORLDS series is basically about the PP interaction with humans.
[16:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: No, quoting Louis: "We know you traded with the Trinocs, and we didn't meet the Trinocs until 20 years ago."
[16:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Nessus then tells him that they largely traded through the use of robots. (Both the Trinocs and P'teers are paranoid you know.)
[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: But heck, we know from Rw that they trade with the Trinocs using robot intermediaries. It does bother me that in the OF WORLDS books, the Puppeteers don't seem to have any foreign policy except with Humans and the locals such as Gw'oth and one or two Outsider ships.
[16:36] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Hah!
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman:
[16:37] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Perhaps they broke off communications with the Trinocs after they fled. Still though, why wouldn't they leave agents behind like they did in human space?
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, the OF WORLDS books are Human-centric. But it does disturb me that we have not met any of the other Puppeteer trading partners.
[16:38] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: If Larry comes online this is surely worth asking
[16:39] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Maybe it's all there but they don't think its relevant enough to show to us
[16:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: Okay, so maybe Nessus should have figured out the shared brain thing sooner. Maybe he was having a bad day... week... month... whatever.
[16:39] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I would say that he already knew and was keeping secrets, but I don't buy it
[16:40] #knownspace> Lensman: But I think you're forgetting that Larry presents Humans at being better than other species at figuring things like that out. The Puppeteers and Kzinti just are not *interested* in figuring out puzzles. They are interested only in what is directly important to their motives.
[16:40] #knownspace> Lensman: No "monkey curiosity".
[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Contrariwise, the Gw'oth seem to have curiosity in spades!
[16:42] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I wonder what the Gw'oth would make of the Jotoki, seeing them subjugated like that.
[16:42] #knownspace> Lensman: The Gw'oth are not going to see themselves as similar to the Jotoki.
[16:42] #knownspace> Jim: Gw'oth have the dangerous combination of intelligence and curiosity.
[16:43] #knownspace> dmac44: lunch is over
[16:44] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: No, I can imagine that the Gw'oth would see themselves as smarter than the Jotoki. The Gw'oth outsmarted the P'teers after all. In fact, I think they now know how the Outsider in system drive works. The Jotoki allowed themselves to be enslaved by "scream and leap" tactics
[16:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes. I think the rapid rate of tech progress by the Gw'oth is not realistic. I brought that up with Ed, too. He doesn't agree, of course. But it seems to me that FOW says or implies that the Jotoki advance rapidly because they never make a mistake; everything is planned out in simulations. I don't agree; computer simulations don't predict every problem. Certainly reduces them, but... the...
[16:45] #knownspace> Lensman: ...Hubble Telescope had its mirror ground wrong despite the best computer simulations!
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed says that we're not supposed to believe the Gw'oth never make mistakes. But that's the way I read the book.
[16:47] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Hm. You said that "FoW says or implies that the Jotoki advance rapidly..." Did you mean Gw'oth there Lens?
[16:48] #knownspace> Lensman: No, the intelligence factor is not what I meant by "The Gw'oth are not going to see themselves as similar to the Jotoki." That's like saying we see ourselves as similar to dogs because we have four limbs, two eyes, two ears, a head mounted on the opposite end as our butt, etc.
[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: Oops, yes... the Gw'oth advance rapidly, not the Jotoki.
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Actually, I should have said "lizards", not dogs... we *do* identify with dogs to some extent.
[16:52] #knownspace> Jim: Actually, it is more the other way around. Dogs identify with us, and we subconsciously recognize that.
[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: No doubt the Gw'oth would see us as being quite similar to lizards. But *we* do not!
[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: Yup.
[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Dogs are good at imitating human behavior. They've been bred for just that.
[16:56] #knownspace> Jim: Dogs: Humans are gods. Cats: I am god.
[16:56] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: So then, the Gw'oth and the Jotoki question is up in the air, which is related to the Trinoc / OF WORLDS question
[16:56] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: So I have a new one
[16:57] #knownspace> dmac44: So, the Jotoki and the Gw'oth wouldn't form an interstellar book club called the Sophants of the Five? :)
[16:57] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Going along with what we were talking about in the email posts, how is a dimple world any more protectable than the ring?
[16:57] #knownspace> Jim: What is a dimple world?
[17:00] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I was hoping Lensman would elaborate on the idea for us
[17:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Imagine a very small Dyson Sphere with people living on the *outside*, under domes to keep the air in. Under each dome is a dimple containing a habitat with the area of the surface of the Earth. The sun is in the middle. Windows in the floor let sunlight shine out, with mirrors to catch the sunlight and reflect it back down.
[17:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Gravity is provided by the sun.
[17:01] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: No super laser though
[17:01] #knownspace> dmac44: a giant golf ball typr structure with what millions of dimples? Interesting. Any special material needed for it?
[17:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Dimple World is harder to spot than Ringworld; the sun is hidden. And you can have defensive lasers all over the outside; no "blind spot" like the Ringworld has.
[17:02] #knownspace> Jim: What structural material strength is required?
[17:02] #knownspace> dmac44: you can spot it through its' infrared emissions
[17:02] #knownspace> Lensman: (I still say there are hidden mirrors to bounce the superthermal laser into the plane of the Ringworld, if a fleet comes in within the plane.
[17:03] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Why wouldn't Tunesmith have used them though Lens?
[17:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Let's say it's carefully constructed to give off the same infrared signature as a red dwarf star. About 3/4 of the stars in the galaxy are red dwarfs. Who would bother to come investigate?
[17:03] #knownspace> dmac44: good point.
[17:04] #knownspace> dmac44: what about special materils required?
[17:04] #knownspace> dmac44: gotta wory about compresion and you'd have to rotate it some wouldn't you?
[17:05] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm not sure just how hard Tunesmith tried to kill off *all* the Fringe War ships. There was discussion of not even trying with ships out in the Oort cloud... too far away.
[17:06] #knownspace> Lensman: And Louis talked him into *not* destroying some of the ships, as I recall.
[17:06] #knownspace> dmac44: compreesion to hold up under 1 g. And, rotation so it would be in orbit? Any references to this idea?
[17:07] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Dimpleworld? Why does anything need to be in orbit? Why would you *want* anything to be in orbit?
[17:08] #knownspace> Lensman: I found a few digital pictures of Dimple World, but if there is an essay out there I don't know about it. I did ask someone for an essay for the KS Concordance site, but nothing came of that.
[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: It was a mistake for Tunesmith to not destroy *all* the ARM ships which had antimatter "bullets". One blew a huge hole in the Ringworld floor, another took out an attitude jet, with the resulting explosion melting some spill mountains!
[17:09] #knownspace> dmac44: so the only force you'd have to design for is the inward tug from the sun. 1 G compression. Is that right?
[17:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, that's my understanding. But I came very late to that discussion, wasn't involved in the original discussion which came up with the idea.
[17:12] #knownspace> dmac44: Didn't Tunesmith really want to leave anyway. Maybe it would have taken him too much time to find and destroy all the antimatter capable ships. But, I agree, that seems weak.
[17:13] #knownspace> dmac44: dimple world sounds like a variation of Brin's fractal world.
[17:15] #knownspace> dmac44: Hmmmm ... Titleistworld? :)
[17:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Special materials? I have no idea. I haven't seen any math analysis. Don't know if carbon fiber or carbon nanotube panels would be strong enuff, or if it needs *cough* exotic materials *cough*. But frankly, only 1 gee compression... I would think carbon fiber would be sufficient. Heck, even good steel if you could get that much iron!
[17:16] #knownspace> Jim: What would be the operating temperature?
[17:16] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Interesting. Thanks for the insight. I'm pretty sure that I've read Larry saying that elbow room wasn't the reason for the ringworld though. So if they left I'm assuming where ever the Pak went they'd make a new laser.
[17:17] #knownspace> Jim: Steel fails under very little load, if the temperature is high enough (i.e. World Trade Center, 11 Sep 2001).
[17:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Pretty hot, I think. The dimples require refrigeration, as I recall. Or maybe just very good insulation. Perhaps if the insulation is good enuff, the dimples can radiate their heat into space and maintain an Earth-like temperature. Not sure, tho... that may not be practical. But there's plenty of solar energy on the underside, so plenty of energy for refrigeration... as long as it never...
[17:18] #knownspace> Lensman: ...breaks down! Better have redundancy on that.
[17:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Good point, steel isn't gonna cut it. Not sure about carbon fiber, I don't know anything about what is strong at high temperatures.
[17:19] #knownspace> dmac44: if you can put giant lasers on the outside of dimpleworld why didn't the pak put then on the outside of the ringworld (powering them from the superconductor grid)?
[17:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Laser cannon is fine for "point defenses", but not sufficient for what the Engineers needed... which was a weapon powerful enuff to stop the sort of fleet we see in /Protector/, or possibly even the one in DOW.
[17:21] #knownspace> dmac44: then why would dimpleworld be any different?
[17:22] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Oh, that's unfair of you, using logic.
[17:22] #knownspace> dmac44: okay, I'll go back to being irrational.
[17:23] #knownspace> dmac44: not wrong mind you, just irrational.
[17:23] #knownspace> Lensman: But seriously, if you have /scrith/ then you can bounce the laser in any direction you want. You just need a few places in Dimple World where you can open up a window, then bounce a superthermal laser in any direction.
[17:24] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't see why that wouldn't work on the Ringworld, since they can fire the laser on the rim wall and it won't hurt the /scrith/ there. Just polish the /scrith/ to a good mirror; I can't see why that wouldn't work.
[17:25] #knownspace> dmac44: okay, so we assume that dimpleworld uses scrith (much less needed than for a ringworld).
[17:25] #knownspace> dmac44: or maybe the same amount giveen it's a sphere.
[17:25] #knownspace> dmac44: but it is thinner.
[17:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, if the Engineers left Ringworld en masse and went elsewhere to build Dimple World, then why would they *not* use /scrith/?
[17:26] #knownspace> dmac44: I wasn't suggesting they wouldn't.
[17:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Dimple World has a *much* smaller diameter than Ringworld. Not sure which has more surface area.
[17:27] #knownspace> dmac44: dimpleworld doesn't have to stand up to the insane forces that the ringworld does.
[17:27] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I guess I wonder why Phssthpok never made mention of the RW builder fleet when he was studying space flight.
[17:28] #knownspace> Lensman: But yes, since the compression is only 1 gee the /scrith/ foundation can be *much* thinner and weaker.
[17:28] #knownspace> Jim: What are scrith's refractory properties?
[17:28] #knownspace> dmac44: a good comet would punch right through it though but then all your air wouldn't leak out.
[17:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Cubes: Yeah, I wonder about that too. Maybe the Ringworld Expedition destroyed all records?
[17:29] #knownspace> dmac44: given the wars over long periods of time it's hard to believe that all information would be saved in the Library. Just some of it.
[17:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: Good question. I can't think of anything in the canon about that, right off.
[17:30] #knownspace> dmac44: and maybe the expedition worked hard to keep the information out of the Library.
[17:30] #knownspace> dmac44: they didn't want to be followed.
[17:31] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Yeah, it's like the Library is "sacred ground" as in the "Highlander" series. You wouldn't think that a species as hardheaded and practical as Pak protectors would honor *any* neutral ground.
[17:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Exactly, they didn't want to be followed.
[17:32] #knownspace> dmac44: the domes on the outside of dimpleworld seem very vulernable.
[17:33] #knownspace> Lensman: It's a given that Pak protectors will eventually break any alliance, yet the rule protecting the Library seems to be inviolate. I don't understand that.
[17:33] #knownspace> dmac44: they're alien :)
[17:33] #knownspace> dmac44: sorta.
[17:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Remember, the theory is that the Engineers abandoned the Ringworld because it could be *detected*. It occults its star. They went elsewhere to *hide*, not to build an invincible fortress.
[17:34] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[17:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ello?
[17:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Chris!
[17:34] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Lens: Great point
[17:34] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Hallo
[17:34] #knownspace> Jim: culp
[17:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Topic of the moment?
[17:35] #knownspace> Jim: dimple worlds
[17:35] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Where did the RW engineers go?
[17:35] #knownspace> Jim: dimple worlds and the materials to construct them
[17:35] #knownspace> dmac44: Speaking of the Pak, I had a problem in DOW with Thssthfok saying he's sorry to Sigmsund. Anyone else feel that way ((I'll say that when I emailedEd about this, he didn't see any problem with it).
[17:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Dimple worlds? I am not farmiliar with them.
[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: As I understand it, the idea behind Dimple World is "If the Engineers had the materials and abilities they had to build the Ringworld, what else could they build that would be better?" That doesn't mean it's perfect, by any means!
[17:37] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: where does it say or imply the Engineers abandoned the Ringworld because it could be detected?
[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Yes. Apparently there is a Rule Which Must Be Followed: If you are going to activate a ship's drive inside a larger ship, so that the larger ship is destroyed, you *must* radio an "I'm sorry" message a second before you activate the drive.
[17:37] #knownspace> dmac44: Yeah, I thought it was very very un_Pak-like.
[17:38] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: It doesn't. Just part of my fan theory. If the Engineers abandoned the Ringworld, then why? There must be a reason.
[17:38] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Chris: " Imagine a very small Dyson Sphere with people living on the *outside*, under domes to keep the air in. Under each dome is a dimple containing a habitat with the area of the surface of the Earth. The sun is in the middle. Windows in the floor let sunlight shine out, with mirrors to catch the sunlight and reflect it back down.
[17:39] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: And again let's be careful with defining an entire race by the actions of one individual.
[17:39] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Wow. Wouldnt that take much more resources and be less stable than the ringworld?
[17:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, very un-Pak like. That's just one of *many* things which don't make sense about DOW.
[17:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Chris: No. It's small enuff that the Sun provides 1 gee gravity. The diameter is quite small compared to Ringworld.
[17:40] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: what else did you have problems with?
[17:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Stable? The Ringworld is not stable in its plane of rotation. Actually Dimple World *is* stable, because of radiation pressure.
[17:41] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Okay then. How close to the surface would it have to be?
[17:41] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: I'm not sure how much time you have...
[17:41] #knownspace> dmac44: well maybe we should take that offline.
[17:42] #knownspace> Lensman: 1. If the Pak fleet traveled 30,000 light years, and spread apart as they came, why is the fleet only 12 light years across?
[17:42] #knownspace> dmac44: careful piloting?
[17:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: They are close to come to eachothers defense if they were under attack?
[17:42] #knownspace> Lensman: 2. Why did Siggy *not* kill something as big a threat as a Pak protector? Especially after it escaped repeatedly?
[17:43] #knownspace> Lensman: 3. Why didn't Eric or Kirstan kill T-fok after he escaped repeatedly? Even relatively gentle Kirsten isn't *that* stupid!
[17:44] #knownspace> Lensman: 4. Why didn't they put T-fok into a stasis field? At the end of the book, it was demonstrated they were available.
[17:45] #knownspace> Lensman: 5. Do Puppeteers *really* not have the ability to destroy a group of ramships, even a large one? How hard is it for a hypership to drop out of hyperdrive, fling some gravel into the ramscoop field, and jump back out again before the Pak can react?
[17:46] #knownspace> Lensman: 6. Why did paranoid Siggy not think of checking to see if T-fok survived? He *knows* that ship has a stasis field in in which protected Alice!
[17:47] #knownspace> Lensman: That's just off the top of my head; more if you give me time to check the correspondence I've had with Jon Aaron.
[17:47] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Yeah, but Lens, you just go through saying that characters who never make mistakes aren't believable
[17:47] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: got*
[17:47] #knownspace> dmac44: I hadn't thought of the stasis field. That should have been an option. Killing up front and personal might have been hard. I agree with #5. Though you might need to do it simotaneously against all Pak ships else they might adapt. Six, yeah.
[17:48] #knownspace> dmac44: but of course there is a sequel where #6 might be answered.
[17:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, here's another *major* continuity problem: Why is it that Phssthpok left *before* T-fok's fleet, traveled at near light-speed, yet arrived only a very few centuries before T-fok's fleet, which was said to be traveling at between 0.4 and 0.9 lightspeed? Is time travel involved, or what?
[17:50] #knownspace> Lensman: ...and they were traveling 30,000 light-years. Phssthpok should have arrived over 10,000 years earlier!
[17:50] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: *You pick up a copy of DoW, carefully open the cover and
[17:50] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: - discontinuity -
[17:51] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I have to go, but i will be back!
[17:51] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: >_>
was a joke

[17:51] #knownspace> Jim: seeya
[17:55] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: darn, still no larry
[17:56] #knownspace> dmac44: I've got to run. See you all next month.
[17:56] #knownspace> Jim: ok
[17:56] #knownspace> Jim: seeya
[18:03] #knownspace> Jim: There is a little Gary Coleman inside us all.
[18:03] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: wait, what?!!
[18:04] #knownspace> Jim: I purchased an album with a song that had that sentence as the chorus.
[18:05] #knownspace> Jim: Ookla the Mok
[18:05] #knownspace> Jim: LA (la Land)
[18:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, not thinking of using a stasis field is not a "continuity problem". I just have a problem with stories that require massive stupidity on the part of either the heroes or the villains. In DOW, we got both. If Siggy didn't think of putting T-fok in a stasis field, why didn't Eric or Kirsten or Baedecker? *I* thought of it immediately. Am I that much smarter than *all* the characters in...
[18:05] #knownspace> Lensman: ...that book? No, I am most definitely not!
[18:06] #knownspace> Jim: Unless, they wanted him to escape.
[18:06] #knownspace> Lensman: You'd think after T-fok escaped 2-3 times that they *might* have started considering other ways to keep him prisoner.
[18:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Sure, if they *wanted* him to escape. But that wasn't the story.
[18:07] #knownspace> Jim: As and ex-ARM agent, Sigmund would know the mental and physical capabilities of a Pak adult.
[18:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Sorry for the rant.
[18:07] #knownspace> Jim: an
[18:08] #knownspace> Jim: EML and Larry, we miss you.
[18:08] #knownspace> Lensman: I've been quite surprised that no one on the list has complained about the many flaws in DOW, because they really bug me a lot.
[18:09] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: what got me was siggy thinking that Phssthpok's trip was made into a secret
[18:10] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: when in Louis Wu's time they were common knowledge
[18:10] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: same with Elroy Truesdale's time.
[18:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, Jon Aaron pointed out that continuity problem, too.
[18:11] #knownspace> Jim: I don't expect KS to cohere completely, but this is a basic continuity problem.
[18:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Or one of my correspondents did. Cubes, did you correspond with me privately re DOW?
[18:11] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Right, sometimes you need a retcon :P
[18:11] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I think I may have in the past, but it's been a while :)
[18:11] #knownspace> Jim: Did Louis Wu say that knowledge of the Pak was common (non-restricted) among humans?
[18:12] #knownspace> Jim: Louis Wu probably knew things that the ARM wished he did not.
[18:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Speaker said something like "I may know more of your ancestors than you do", implying that the full story of Phssthpok was not well known. And from what Louis says, the story is not widely believed. He suggested that Brennan was insane and made it up.
[18:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Louis speculates that Earth may have been founded as a colony of City Builders, in Rw.
[18:15] #knownspace> Lensman: So I think we have to assume that the average person does not believe Humans are descended from the Pak.
[18:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, pizza calls. I shall return later!
[18:15] #knownspace> Jim: If a Pak adult showed up tomorrow afternoon, I probably would not believe it when it said that it was my ancestor.
[18:18] #knownspace> Jim: cubes: what is your real name
[18:18] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: I'm too paranoid for that :P
[18:19] #knownspace> Jim: the key to privacy is to not distinguish one's self from the crowd
[18:19] #knownspace> Jim: :-)
[18:19] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Aye
[18:20] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: If I told you my name was Lawrence St. John McGee would you buy it? Hehe.
[18:21] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: (My gmail which I use for the list is, when I respond anyway.)
[18:24] Lensman_ has joined #knownspace
[18:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Anyways, I too must be going. The one saturday I remember to show up and the authors do not. Oh well
[18:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: Still had some great conversations
[18:26] #knownspace> CubesForsythe: See you around :)
[18:45] #knownspace> Jim: gotta go
[18:45] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[18:47] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[18:47] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Back.
[19:33] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[19:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: My phone is dead. :(
[20:26] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[20:33] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Any one on?
[20:33] kipp has joined #knownspace
[20:33] #knownspace> CCulpepper: oi!
[20:33] #knownspace> kipp: yo
[20:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Okay. Just makin sure its not my connection...
[20:36] Tanada has joined #knownspace
[20:37] #knownspace> CCulpepper: oi!
[20:38] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Is it just me or is nobody talking?
[20:38] #knownspace> Tanada: IIRC they can only acheive intersteller range when launching from very low gravity planets in small star mass systems
[20:39] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But how would that stop them from landing here and spreading?
[20:40] #knownspace> Tanada: even in a billion and a half years how far will they spread coasting through lightyears of space?
[20:40] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yeah. Sheer chance. How many can a planet throw up in a year?
[20:41] #knownspace> Tanada: As far as I know they are on Silvereyes and that planet Shultz-Mann discovered in Relic of Empire
[20:42] #knownspace> Tanada: Didn't Shultz-Mann say he had tracked them across several systems?
[20:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yeah. Wasnt there a cluster of three that Shultz-Mann discovered?
[20:42] #knownspace> Tanada: Something like that, been a while since i read it
[20:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yeah, I think he was just tracking them. I could find it?
[20:43] #knownspace> Tanada: Sure if you want
[20:43] #knownspace> CCulpepper: k
[20:43] #knownspace> CCulpepper: brb
[20:43] #knownspace> Tanada: My books are all two flights of stairs away and I am feeling lazy
[20:44] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Mine was only one flighht away. got it
[20:45] #knownspace> Tanada: wb
[20:46] #knownspace> CCulpepper: thx
[20:47] #knownspace> CCulpepper: 12 years searching...
[20:48] #knownspace> Tanada: 1.5 Billion years is a mind numbing figure
[20:49] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Terribly. 14 B to the universe?
[20:50] #knownspace> CCulpepper: # spires to a site.
[20:50] #knownspace> CCulpepper: 3
[20:51] #knownspace> Tanada: depends on the model they use, probably less than 25 Billion and more than 10 Billion
[20:51] #knownspace> CCulpepper: So you think just chance that the stage trees did nto?
[20:51] #knownspace> CCulpepper: *not?
[20:52] #knownspace> Tanada: I just don't then they had time to get all the way to Earth drifting through normal space at a few hundered km per second
[20:52] #knownspace> Tanada: we know they are on severl planets in Known Space
[20:52] #knownspace> Tanada: but that is one heck of a huge volume
[20:53] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yeaqh. That does make sense. say 200 km per second 1500 years to the lightyear
[20:53] #knownspace> Tanada: and say one of the seeds fell on Plateau a thousand years ago, the only native life was a kind of pond scum that made the upper air breathable
[20:54] #knownspace> Tanada: and it would have to hit on the plateau or it would be destroyed
[20:54] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yeah. Earth or Kzin would work though
[20:55] #knownspace> Tanada: Sure, but Kxin is like Home, slightly higher than Earth gravity, it wouldn't have enough energy after launching to make it out of the star system
[20:55] #knownspace> Tanada: Kzin I mean
[20:56] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yeah. But its not the getting out, Its the getting in.
[20:56] #knownspace> Tanada: True enough
[20:56] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What if the native life stomped it out?
[20:57] #knownspace> Tanada: I bet a planet like Wunderland would be doable, the gravity os only about .61, or especially Canyon where it is even lighter
[20:58] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Wunderland... Is that the high wiund planet?
[20:58] #knownspace> Tanada: Well it is hinted that they evolved on Silversyses along with several other old slaver relics like Sunflowers
[20:58] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Evolved? They were created.
[20:58] #knownspace> Tanada: No Wunderland is at Alpha Centauri, you are thinking of Crashlanding City
[20:58] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yeah. Thats it.
[20:58] growler has joined #knownspace
[20:59] #knownspace> Tanada: They evelved into the plant Schultz-Mann tracked, originally they were farmed
[20:59] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Canyon is the place where the giant disintagrator made an area of high pressure?
[20:59] #knownspace> growler: cos we used them all up for firewood thoousands of years ago
[20:59] #knownspace> Tanada: hi Growler
[20:59] #knownspace> growler: hi (mutter mutter ms dns, mutter)
[21:00] #knownspace> Tanada: Yeah Canyon is the place with a disintigrator made area like the Canyon on Mars, but with a bit higher gravoity and more air
[21:00] #knownspace> Tanada: Marianas Trench
[21:01] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Would the stage trees work in the low pressure, since the canyon is relatively recent?
[21:03] #knownspace> Tanada: it had a thin atmosphere before, the Canyon is just deep enough for people to be confortable without suits
[21:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Okay.
[21:04] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Anybody know when dr who is on?
[21:06] #knownspace> CCulpepper: gtg. I hop ill be back...
[21:44] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[21:46] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ello?
[21:51] CCulpepper[1] has joined #knownspace