Chat Log: May 3rd 2008

May 03 11:18:29 <mark> No, not DVD's ... dry bush and stuff

May 03 11:18:32 <SeanS> well, julie is ready so i must depart. hope to be back by 3 for the chat

May 03 11:18:34 <SeanS> oh

May 03 11:18:38 <SeanS> nothing dry here

May 03 11:18:44 <mark> same here. will try to partike this time

May 03 11:19:02 <mark> do you have the logs for earlier this year?

May 03 11:37:16 * mark (~mark@81.102.177.XX) has left #knownspace

May 03 11:45:34 * bandersnatch (~uwe-klein@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 11:58:13 * UncleNasty has quit (Ping timeout)

May 03 12:43:31 * UncleNasty (~UncleNasty@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 12:43:41 <UncleNasty> hidey hi

May 03 12:44:31 * FlyingDragon (~Carol@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 12:44:51 <UncleNasty> hi carol

May 03 12:44:51 <FlyingDragon> Hello Sean, Uncle, Edd, Snatch.

May 03 12:45:25 <UncleNasty> FlyingDragon: you real any Neal Asher?

May 03 12:46:10 <FlyingDragon> No. Not sure if I've even heard of him either.

May 03 12:46:34 <FlyingDragon> Weren't you pretty sick there for awhile? You feeling better?

May 03 12:46:57 <UncleNasty> hrm - i picked up a book while I was traveling last year - lots of mind food

May 03 12:47:03 <UncleNasty> yeah - not doing too bad

May 03 12:47:08 <UncleNasty> just overworked ;)

May 03 12:48:08 <bandersnatch> hi carol, all

May 03 12:48:15 <FlyingDragon> My master thinks I work too hard in Kuk Sool and it has negatively impacted my health, so he has limited me to one class a day. That is effectively no more than four classes a week.

May 03 12:48:15 <UncleNasty> hi bandersnatch

May 03 12:48:55 <UncleNasty> ouch

May 03 12:48:56 <FlyingDragon> Anyone know anything about British politics? PEter wants to know how the Torries winning seats affects their politics.

May 03 12:49:31 <UncleNasty> i always submitted spoiled ballots when I voted in the UK - it's a broken system

May 03 12:49:34 <FlyingDragon> Yes, Uncle. It makes me very sad and I'm fighting depression over it. From my perspcetive, limiting my training is negatively impacting my emotional health.

May 03 12:50:00 <FlyingDragon> Peter: How so?

May 03 12:50:13 <UncleNasty>

May 03 12:50:41 <FlyingDragon> I forwarded him the article.

May 03 12:51:10 <UncleNasty> ty

May 03 12:51:45 <UncleNasty> basically, the number of seats a party has in the commons denotes how much power they have to push for or against a particular bill

May 03 12:52:10 <UncleNasty> the labour party has dominated the commons for the last few years and turned the country in an orwellian nightmare

May 03 12:52:37 <UncleNasty> if orwell's book had been 2004 instead of 1984 he would have been bang on

May 03 12:52:51 <UncleNasty> hence my new status as a canadian ;)

May 03 12:53:49 <UncleNasty> here's another one for Peter:

May 03 12:54:51 <FlyingDragon> I sent it to him, but he is too busy doing something else to read it right now.

May 03 12:54:58 <UncleNasty> no worries

May 03 12:55:16 <UncleNasty> electoral reform in the UK will not be any time soon

May 03 12:56:23 <FlyingDragon> Peter: But what does that have to do with the electorial system? If British voters vote for Ken Livingston, how can you blame that on the system? And if they stop voting for him, why do they stop NOW?

May 03 12:57:16 <UncleNasty> britain has a 2 party system , where voters don't vote for who they want to win, they vote to stop the people they don't want getting in

May 03 12:57:54 <FlyingDragon> Peter: How is that different from anywhere else?

May 03 12:57:57 <UncleNasty> so, if someone doesn't want labour in, they won't vote for the green party or national front... they'll vote tory

May 03 12:58:10 <UncleNasty> because it doesn't really change anything

May 03 12:58:39 <UncleNasty> labour had massive power over the last 10 years because they abused their position and made labour govmt the status quo

May 03 12:59:15 <UncleNasty> now people are starting to realise just how badly they have been screwed by labour and are voting against labour to get them less power

May 03 12:59:49 <UncleNasty> so, they have about 6 parties they could vote for, but in order to actually damage labours power in the commons, they have to vote tory

May 03 13:01:15 <bandersnatch> yes having 2 more parties has not improved politics here ( the Big Coalition does not help )

May 03 13:01:21 <FlyingDragon> Peter: Did labour need to form a coalition to govern?

May 03 13:02:29 <FlyingDragon> Peter: Are you saying that the same coalition forms no matter what party in the coalition the voters votes for?

May 03 13:02:30 <UncleNasty> if it wanted to continue its agenda, yes

May 03 13:07:10 <FlyingDragon> Lobaour needed to form a coalition? OR the same coalition forms no matter what party in the coalition voters vote for?

May 03 13:08:24 <UncleNasty> a coalition government would be formed if labour cannot get the majority it needs to win - labour would have a majority of seats in the coalition and maintain an effective power to swing the government in the direction it wanted

May 03 13:08:29 <UncleNasty> it would beat losing

May 03 13:08:44 <UncleNasty> for the labour party.. not for the man on the street

May 03 13:09:01 <UncleNasty> the problem is that the tories would not really be any better in government than labour

May 03 13:09:20 <FlyingDragon> Peter: ARe you saying that the Torries are screwed up? THat that is the problem? I KNOW they are screwed up!

May 03 13:09:51 <UncleNasty> the labour government granted itself immense powers to invade the privacy of the populace. The tories, if they got in, have no reason to revoke those powers

May 03 13:10:25 <UncleNasty> it's this anti-terrorsim bullshit - same as you guys have in the US with the patriot act

May 03 13:11:09 <FlyingDragon> I keep wondering when we are going to start enacting the constitution and the bill of rights again.

May 03 13:12:50 <UncleNasty> the problem you have in the UK is that the populace has been disarmed and disheartened over the last 40+ years

May 03 13:13:09 <UncleNasty> they don't have the motivation to put up a fight

May 03 13:13:23 <FlyingDragon> We're sheeple here too.

May 03 13:13:49 <FlyingDragon> PEter: Are you saying that the TOrries and Labour are not sufficiently different from each other?

May 03 13:14:07 <UncleNasty> like you wouldn't believe

May 03 13:15:27 <UncleNasty> you had all the people voting labour to get away from the thatcher government. thatcher was a warmonger, fascist, etc. blair got on hs knees for bush and got the UK involved in iraq AGAINST THE POPULAR VOTE OF THE COUNTRY

May 03 13:15:48 <UncleNasty> blair actually commented that he knew best and that history would prove him right

May 03 13:16:01 <UncleNasty> not exactly government for the people by the people

May 03 13:16:50 <UncleNasty> much along the lines of

May 03 13:18:05 <UncleNasty> there are a couple of articles that went through for the R.I.P. bill that actually reverse due process in the judicial system

May 03 13:18:07 <FlyingDragon> I have to go back to Kuk Sool now.

May 03 13:18:30 <FlyingDragon> PEter says he will read your articles.

May 03 13:18:35 <UncleNasty> lol - k

May 03 13:18:44 <FlyingDragon> Peter: but the shift seems so sudden, that is what puzzles me.

May 03 13:18:56 <UncleNasty> it's been going on since the late 90s

May 03 13:18:56 <UncleNasty>

May 03 13:19:02 * FlyingDragon is now known as FlyingAway

May 03 13:19:04 <UncleNasty> another one for peter

May 03 13:19:41 <FlyingAway> bye

May 03 13:19:45 <UncleNasty> ttfn

May 03 13:22:08 <UncleNasty> and another:

May 03 13:23:11 <UncleNasty> and the biggy:

May 03 13:45:12 * mark (~mark@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 13:52:47 * yCrazyEdd has quit (Ping timeout)

May 03 13:54:21 <UncleNasty> hey mark

May 03 13:59:12 * Lensman_free (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 13:59:22 <UncleNasty> hola

May 03 13:59:38 <Lensman_free> Hi UN!

May 03 14:00:23 <UncleNasty> didn't see if there was a chat notice sent out, so i'm not sure if there's one on today or not :-S

May 03 14:00:48 <Lensman_free> I sent out a notice, Thursday and Friday, on the list.

May 03 14:01:22 <UncleNasty> ahh - k - probably missed is - has been a crazy/busy week

May 03 14:01:33 <UncleNasty> s/is/it

May 03 14:03:03 * Lensman_free is now known as Lenmsan

May 03 14:04:09 <Lenmsan> Typos R us.

May 03 14:04:17 * Lenmsan is now known as Lensman

May 03 14:04:26 <UncleNasty> lol

May 03 14:05:25 <UncleNasty> workin til 2:30 am and then bacl at it at 9am ofor a couple of days really takes it out of me

May 03 14:05:32 <UncleNasty> i think i'm getting old

May 03 14:07:48 <Lensman> AFAIK none of us are getting younger. :) I don't know Merlin, personally.

May 03 14:08:17 <UncleNasty> you read any neal asher?

May 03 14:11:27 <Lensman> No, don't recognize the name.

May 03 14:11:49 <UncleNasty> never heard of him, but i picked up a book at the airport on a business trip - he's really good

May 03 14:12:22 <UncleNasty> started to grab a few of his other books, too - quite a good find

May 03 14:12:41 <UncleNasty> genre is post-cyberpunk

May 03 14:14:59 <UncleNasty> so far read gridlinked and brassman

May 03 14:15:48 <Lensman> It's been awhile since I tried a new author. I read S.M. Stirling's /The Sky People/ upon a recommendation from the Piper list-- and loved it!

May 03 14:16:20 <Lensman> But I'd already read several Stirling stories, including the wonderful /Dies the Fire/ and its first sequel.

May 03 14:16:27 <UncleNasty> yeah - my time's been limited enough I've not wanted to chance wasting it on something I wouldn't like

May 03 14:16:46 <UncleNasty> asher's polity universe has some interesting ideas in it

May 03 14:16:59 <Lensman> Stirling has written some of the best non-canon MKW stories, too.

May 03 14:17:37 <UncleNasty> the whole basis of their technology is a 23 minute period where a genius was directly interfaced to an AI... both were brain-dead at the end of the link

May 03 14:17:46 <UncleNasty> is based on a

May 03 14:17:52 <UncleNasty> christ i can't type today

May 03 14:19:38 <Lensman> Hmmm, I guess there must have been some sort of recording of their... conversation? "Thinking?" Or else if they were brain-dead a the end, not much would have been accomplished.

May 03 14:20:37 <UncleNasty> there is a lot of conceptual stuff about the blurred lines between mind and AI - personalities can be recorded

May 03 14:22:00 <UncleNasty> there's also a lot of stuff about the effects of extending the human mind using computer augmentation... gridlinking is like wireheading on the internet - gives a direct neural link with access to the 'net

May 03 14:22:25 <UncleNasty> with plugin mods capacity and control can be increased

May 03 14:22:38 <Lensman> Talk about "Internet addiction"--!

May 03 14:23:32 <UncleNasty> the main protagonist in gridlinked is a secret agent type who has been gridlinked for 30+ years. part of the book is his coping with disconnection. his superiors are concerned he is losing touch with humanity

May 03 14:24:27 <UncleNasty>

May 03 14:27:03 <Lensman> I'm mulling over a comment Larry made in a book review:

May 03 14:27:08 <Lensman> H. G. Wells's rule (paraphrased) is that you may make one funny assumption per story. A camera on Mars, a time machine, mind-altering chemicals in a comet... The rest of the story must be plausible enough to earn the reader's willing suspension of disbelief.

May 03 14:27:08 <UncleNasty> ?

May 03 14:27:19 <Lensman> Unquote.

May 03 14:27:23 <UncleNasty> ahh

May 03 14:27:55 <Lensman> I'm trying to think of any modern SF tale that has only *one* "funny assumption". I don't think that's true today, as it was in Wells' time.

May 03 14:28:21 <Lensman> I suspect the story you're referring to has more than one "funny assumption".

May 03 14:28:32 <UncleNasty> i guess that's where you get the blurry line between sci-fi & fantasy

May 03 14:29:16 <UncleNasty> a lot of larry's early work was exploring the changes one big discovery would make in all its nuances

May 03 14:29:34 <Lensman> Well yes, I think you're right, Wells was talking about the difference between SF and outright fantasy. That is, the level of plausibility.

May 03 14:29:41 <UncleNasty> like teleporter salt water treatment in flash crowd

May 03 14:30:21 <Lensman> Okay, granted the Teleportation series is about just one radical invention.

May 03 14:30:27 <UncleNasty> i think by the time you hit ringworld era, you have lots of those little assumptions piled together

May 03 14:30:42 <UncleNasty> or wireheading and organlegging in the gil hamilton stories

May 03 14:31:03 <Lensman> But others? "Neutron Star" has Puppeteers, jump booths, GP hulls, hyperdrive, hyperwave radio.

May 03 14:31:40 <UncleNasty> as known space developed, all these things were taken as base assumptions built on previous stories

May 03 14:32:00 <Lensman> Niven's first story, "The Coldest Place", has a cyborg ship (Eric) *and* Helium II lifeforms. So, two funny assumptions in one story.

May 03 14:32:39 <UncleNasty> true

May 03 14:33:15 <Lensman> Okay, yes /Ringworld/ does build on a foundation of many previous stories, many of which have their own funny assumptions.

May 03 14:33:17 <UncleNasty> but cyborgs were fairly status-quo for sci-fi... helium II lifeforms were the new idea

May 03 14:33:32 <Lensman> Fair point.

May 03 14:34:03 <UncleNasty> have you read gibson? neuromancer et al?

May 03 14:35:07 <Lensman> So I suppose it's fair to say the funny assumption in "Neutron Star" was the GP hull; everything else was already established. Altho I still think the Puppeteers were pretty unique, I suppose one more intelligent alien doesn't really qualify as a funny assumption.

May 03 14:35:42 <Lensman> I'm embarrassed to say I've never read any Gibson. I hear /Snow Angels/ is pretty good, but haven't gotten around to picking it up.

May 03 14:35:58 <UncleNasty> i'm not sure whether the quote is referring to one big thing different from now, or one big thing you came up with

May 03 14:36:08 <UncleNasty> neuromancer is good

May 03 14:36:30 <UncleNasty> mona lisa overdrive is a selection of short stories, which make interesting reading

May 03 14:37:38 <UncleNasty> i came up with a cool idea for intelligent amoeba

May 03 14:37:48 <UncleNasty> turns out they would be astounding geneticists

May 03 14:38:31 <Lensman> I can understand where Wells was coming from with that statement. In the age of the "scientific romance", one single assumption was quite enough. As Larry noted, /The Time Machine/, /The Invisible Man/ and... well, Conan Doyle's /The Poison Belt/ all have just one funny assumption. Contrariwise, /War of the Worlds/ has more than one.

May 03 14:39:51 <Lensman> Intelligent amoeba. So are you a writer? Will we be seeing a story about this? I hear writers have stories inside them bursting to get out. I've never experienced that... which I suppose is why I'm not an author.

May 03 14:40:36 <UncleNasty> i'm too much of a techie to write well

May 03 14:40:46 <UncleNasty> i like exploring ideas, tho

May 03 14:40:48 <Lensman> Actually, now that I think about it, /The Time Machine/ had more than one funny assumption. I just re-read that, and was surprised how short it is.

May 03 14:41:02 <Lensman> BRB

May 03 14:41:22 <UncleNasty> well, on that note, I did start planning a book for geeks called "101 ways to cook an Eloi"

May 03 14:43:44 <UncleNasty> intelligent amoeba: picture something the size of a medicine ball which was capable of

May 03 14:45:38 <Lensman> LOL! /How to Serve Man: A Cookbook/

May 03 14:45:56 <UncleNasty> precisely ;)

May 03 14:45:59 <Lensman> Oop! That's just /To Serve Man/.

May 03 14:47:39 <Lensman> I actually have a small hardback by Karl Wurf: /To Serve Man-- a cookbook for people/

May 03 14:47:49 <UncleNasty> ach - brb - phone

May 03 14:47:50 * NickE (~NickE@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 14:48:04 <Lensman> Hi Nick!

May 03 14:48:23 <Lensman> Hey, does anyone know how to contact Hippy offline?

May 03 14:48:31 <NickE> Hi all

May 03 14:48:54 <NickE> That'd be Mark Firestone?

May 03 14:50:25 * Dan (~vila@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 14:50:38 <Dan> Greetings, Programs!

May 03 14:50:45 <NickE> Hi Dan

May 03 14:51:04 <Lensman> No, that would be D J Rout. Mark is known as Chief Strike Anywhere here, Inferno elsewhere.

May 03 14:51:36 <NickE> ah

May 03 14:53:17 <NickE> brb

May 03 14:53:34 * Lensman has changed the topic to: Today's obscure Niven quote: "Did I hear you call me cute?"

May 03 14:54:33 <Dan> LOL!

May 03 14:55:22 <Lensman> Welcome Dan.

May 03 14:56:03 <Dan> Thank you.

May 03 14:56:37 <Dan> I hope that the weather for everyone else isn't as miserable as it is here.

May 03 14:57:31 <Lensman> We had some "interesting" weather here Thursday nite. Hurricane force winds is something one does not often experience in Kansas, unless a tornado is approaching.

May 03 14:58:03 <Lensman> Tornado sirens went off repeatedly. I retreated to the basement twice. But all okay, just some limbs down.

May 03 14:59:23 <Lensman> People were posting to my local SF club's list, with subjects like "North Kansas City checking in." The news reported several tornadoes spotted, but apparently none touched down in habited areas.

May 03 15:00:55 <Lensman> The news also reported tennis-ball-sized hail. We had that here, a year or two ago. *Every* house-- and I do mean every one-- in the neighborhood had its roof replaced... except the one right next door, which was an A-frame with a steep roof angle.

May 03 15:02:51 <Dan> Nothing like that here. Just depressing gray overcast and constant misting rain. Just "Blah" to the Nth degree.

May 03 15:03:02 <mark> it's nice and sunny here... for once

May 03 15:03:07 <mark> i might even get all my laundry done

May 03 15:03:15 <Lensman> Sometimes the inanity of what reporters say just to fill up air time gets pretty absurd. While the major windstorm was moving across the area, one commented "If you're out driving..." That *should* have been "...then get your car under a shelter and stay there until the wind passes!" Driving around in that weather is risking getting your car blown right off the road.

May 03 15:04:10 <SeanS> sun broke here about an hour ago

May 03 15:08:54 <SeanS> so how is everyone today?

May 03 15:09:12 <Lensman> Hi Sean! Can you help me set up an IRC connection in Trillian?

May 03 15:09:18 <NickE> Yo dude.

May 03 15:09:20 <Lensman> I am fine.

May 03 15:09:47 <NickE> Good , tired but good

May 03 15:09:52 <Lensman> The first field says "Server alias".

May 03 15:10:02 <mark> hey nick

May 03 15:10:04 <SeanS> I have never used trillian

May 03 15:10:06 <NickE> No sign of Larry yet?

May 03 15:10:10 <mark> i like trillian

May 03 15:10:19 <Lensman> Sadly, Larry will not be in today.

May 03 15:10:20 <mark> i hear rumors of a linux / mac os version

May 03 15:10:28 <NickE> Hey

May 03 15:10:47 <SeanS> server alias just sounds like your name for the server

May 03 15:10:52 <Lensman> Well Mark, can you help me with a Trillian IRC setup?

May 03 15:10:59 <mark> sure

May 03 15:11:12 <mark> the first thing you have to do is add the irc plugin

May 03 15:11:24 <mark> it comes with trillian, but for some reason it isn't turned on by default

May 03 15:12:00 <Lensman> I went to "add a connection" and chose IRC. Is that right, or do I need to do something else first?

May 03 15:12:31 <mark> that's correct. it means you have the plugin installed

May 03 15:12:38 <mark> let me look at my settings

May 03 15:12:57 <mark> right

May 03 15:13:00 <mark> going down the list I have

May 03 15:13:03 <mark> larryniven

May 03 15:13:17 <mark>

May 03 15:13:29 <mark> and then below that, just put Lensman three times one for each box

May 03 15:13:48 <mark> after you do that and select connect

May 03 15:14:07 <mark> you need to right click on the irc circle thingie (it's pale blue)

May 03 15:14:13 <mark> and select Join channel

May 03 15:14:23 <mark> and put in #knownspace

May 03 15:14:54 <Dan> Won't there be a conflict unless Lens changes his nickname here before connecting through Trillian?

May 03 15:15:10 <mark> indeed. i think trillian will randomly add a number to the end if there is

May 03 15:15:17 <mark> maybe. could be

May 03 15:15:33 * Lensman2 (~Lensman@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 15:15:38 <mark> ah so

May 03 15:15:45 <Dan> Yes.

May 03 15:16:34 * Lensman has quit ()

May 03 15:17:20 <Lensman2> Okay. Maybe if people decide to change font colors to frex light green now, I won't have to scream "MY EYES!!!" :-)

May 03 15:18:08 * Lensman2 is now known as Lensman

May 03 15:18:10 <mark> what were you using before? That horrible java client?

May 03 15:18:39 <Lensman> No, I was using mIRC. Carol said Trillian was very nice here, so I thought I'd give it a try.

May 03 15:19:00 <mark> mirc is okay.. i just use trillian because it is an all in one thing

May 03 15:19:41 <Lensman> I'm forced to use the horrible Java client in my tuesday nite Dawn Patrol chat. *Shudder* What a resource hog! I can't play Civilization II while that's running. >:-0

May 03 15:19:42 <NickE> Have to say, I did use mIRC, but have gone back to the Java client for the last 2 years I guess

May 03 15:19:43 <Dan> I'm very fond of mIRC myself. I try never to use a java chat applet if I can avoid it.

May 03 15:20:01 <mark> java applet is ssslllooowww

May 03 15:20:12 <NickE> This is the only one I use and it is usually fine

May 03 15:20:14 <Lensman> I may go back to mIRC, but as I say I thought I'd give this a try.

May 03 15:20:14 <mark> hey lensman, i think we've fixed your scrollbar problem

May 03 15:20:22 <UncleNasty> hey all

May 03 15:20:27 <NickE> i Neil

May 03 15:20:30 <Dan> Hiya, UN.

May 03 15:20:38 <mark> nasty!

May 03 15:20:52 <Lensman> Yah, the java client sometimes has s l o w posting even if I'm not multitasking.

May 03 15:21:02 <UncleNasty> holy cow - it's raining like a bugger here

May 03 15:21:07 <NickE> never had that issue

May 03 15:21:23 <NickE> sometimes chucks me out though :-)

May 03 15:21:36 <Lensman> Hey Mark! Kewl! And I have some updates for the Bibliography, altho perhaps those should go to Dave L. first.

May 03 15:21:50 <UncleNasty> mirc on windows or colloquy on mac beats java :P

May 03 15:22:16 <mark> i'm going to try to put in an add function this weekend... then it might be ... gasp... done

May 03 15:22:28 <Dan> Two tin can and a rusty wire beats java.

May 03 15:22:36 <UncleNasty> heh

May 03 15:22:41 * senax (~frank@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 15:22:46 <mark> Hate Java. Tried to write something in that once. Painful

May 03 15:22:46 <SeanS> i use x-chat here

May 03 15:22:51 <Dan> Hiya senax

May 03 15:22:55 <UncleNasty> java's great if you're happy to sacrifice usability & speed for portability

May 03 15:23:06 <mark> i prefer ruby

May 03 15:23:10 <Lensman> Sometimes when I first access a java client chat, for the first few minutes the screen lags when I type. I mean, REALLY lags, like maybe 1-2 characters per second. And it's not just me, others have reported the same problem.

May 03 15:23:11 <UncleNasty> might give this a try some time

May 03 15:23:16 <senax> Howdy

May 03 15:23:22 <UncleNasty> hi senax

May 03 15:23:30 <mark> i can write gui apps that run on mac os x , windows, and linux

May 03 15:23:37 <Lensman> Usually this improves after the first few minutes, but not if I'm multitasking with Civ II, which is another resource hog.

May 03 15:23:57 <UncleNasty> mark: you _can_ but most folks who write java apps make them platform specific

May 03 15:24:13 <mark> that kind of defeats the purpose of the thing...

May 03 15:24:32 <UncleNasty> no argument, but it is true

May 03 15:24:34 <Lensman> Anyway, I'm very glad Sean has set this chat room up so it can be accessed various ways. :-)

May 03 15:24:48 <Dan> That Mozilla addon would be the Chatzilla applet? If so, it works really well.

May 03 15:24:54 <UncleNasty> has anyone got the topic quote yet?

May 03 15:25:04 <SeanS> its just the way irc works... any irc capable client can hit it

May 03 15:25:07 <mark> not me

May 03 15:25:15 <UncleNasty> Dan: just about to try it out

May 03 15:25:22 <SeanS> um, chmee to teela brown in ringworld?

May 03 15:25:22 <Lensman> No one has guessed at the topic quote.

May 03 15:25:29 <SeanS> or speaker that is

May 03 15:25:33 <Dan> Nessus to Tela, in Ringworld, I think.

May 03 15:25:36 <Lensman> Sean: You're close, but not quite.

May 03 15:25:46 <UncleNasty> speaker to teela

May 03 15:25:48 <Lensman> Dan gets the prize!

May 03 15:26:00 <UncleNasty> cool

May 03 15:26:06 <SeanS> hmm, about 2 lines off then

May 03 15:26:08 <Dan> Well, I've only read the book a hundred times or so.

May 03 15:26:34 * unclenasty_ (~chatzilla@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 15:26:38 <unclenasty_> yow

May 03 15:26:43 <Dan> I had a smaller library back then and rereading was my only recourse.

May 03 15:26:43 <unclenasty_> that was easy

May 03 15:27:13 <SeanS> oh, speaker's comment was something like 'dont ever call me cute'

May 03 15:27:38 <Lensman> Well, I was just indexing that chapter of Rw the other day. Of course, Speaker's line is funnier: "I do not mean to give offense... But do not ever say that again. Ever."

May 03 15:27:43 <Dan> Chatzilla is pretty cool. Not a lot of extras, but a good basic IRC client.

May 03 15:27:48 <Lensman> But that would be a give-away.

May 03 15:28:06 <unclenasty_> chatzilla with dark motif theme is quite nice

May 03 15:28:43 <SeanS> i have never used chatzilla... might check it out

May 03 15:28:46 * unclenasty_ is now known as ZillaNasty

May 03 15:29:17 <UncleNasty> it picks up the irc:// links from firefox & opens an irc window

May 03 15:29:20 <Lensman> Suddenly, UN looks much meaner! :-O

May 03 15:29:22 <UncleNasty> pretty slick, really

May 03 15:29:49 <ZillaNasty> MUHAHAHAAAA

May 03 15:31:26 * Dan ponders whether or not to call the Science Patrol and Ultra-Man... ZillaNasty might start stomping Tokyo.

May 03 15:32:07 * ZillaNasty starts small and goes off to stomp Toronto

May 03 15:33:12 <Lensman> Pendragon's "The War of the Worlds" was recently released in Japan. But I suppose they're used to their country being invaded by devastating monsters, by now...

May 03 15:33:16 <senax> Maybe you could stomp on Washington a's about due for a cleaning

May 03 15:34:02 <UncleNasty> you should have been on earlier for my rant about UK politics - lol

May 03 15:34:28 <mark> heh. an american is now mayor of london

May 03 15:34:36 <senax> eh?

May 03 15:34:40 <Lensman> Well, if we can't contact Hippy, does anyone else have a copy of the "An Hour with Larry Niven" audio tape? Darn it, I used to have a copy, but I haven't seen it since my last move.

May 03 15:35:19 <mark> new mayor of london... boris johnson. born in New York

May 03 15:35:32 <senax> I just googled him...interesting...

May 03 15:35:45 <UncleNasty> so what? the governator of california is austrian O:-)

May 03 15:35:51 <NickE> Yeah, but he's very English

May 03 15:35:57 <mark> oh yes.

May 03 15:36:04 <mark> it's also very conservative

May 03 15:36:17 <NickE> that too

May 03 15:36:18 <mark> but he has tremendous amusement value

May 03 15:36:23 <NickE> may be better than Mad Ken

May 03 15:36:29 <NickE> Indeed

May 03 15:36:42 * ZillaNasty has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox])

May 03 15:36:45 <mark> i hate ken. he made me pay some stupid charge to go get my passport renewed

May 03 15:36:48 <UncleNasty> that was confusing

May 03 15:37:00 <NickE> aye. Turned itoa right tosser

May 03 15:37:10 <UncleNasty> mark: i'm not bothering to renew my UK passport

May 03 15:37:26 <NickE> What is it 70 quid or so now?

May 03 15:37:41 <mark> i don't have one. i had to renew my us passport... actually, they weren't mine, but my dual national children

May 03 15:37:42 <NickE> bloody stupid

May 03 15:37:58 <mark> so you have have biometric hoo haw in it

May 03 15:38:11 <NickE> meh. dont want that

May 03 15:38:17 <Lensman> 70 pounds? Ouch! I thought the U.S. fee was steep. What is it, $50?

May 03 15:38:29 <UncleNasty> NickE: the innocent have nothing to fear, apparently

May 03 15:38:32 <NickE> or being forced to pay for the bloody privelide

May 03 15:38:33 <mark> they are going to force me to have a national id card, because I am a resident and not a citizen

May 03 15:38:40 <NickE> riiiight

May 03 15:38:45 <senax> Cost me about $50 to do the make my UK passport no longer valid.

May 03 15:38:46 <UncleNasty>

May 03 15:38:56 <mark> i want to see labour out of office. problem is, I don't want to see the torries in office

May 03 15:39:01 <UncleNasty> that was the thing that spurred me to get out of the UK

May 03 15:39:17 <NickE> cant say I blame you at times

May 03 15:39:24 <NickE> getting bad

May 03 15:39:35 * FlyingAway ducking in

May 03 15:39:44 <senax> hi carol

May 03 15:39:45 <NickE> Hey Carol

May 03 15:39:46 <UncleNasty> the reversal of due process to this guilty-til-proven-innocent mentality is crazy

May 03 15:39:46 <Lensman> Welcome Carol

May 03 15:39:49 <UncleNasty> hey carol

May 03 15:40:43 <SeanS> this?

May 03 15:41:06 <FlyingAway> Only ducking in for a moment

May 03 15:41:15 <Dan> Hiya Carol

May 03 15:41:30 <Lensman> Larry e-mailed me to say he won't be in today.

May 03 15:41:30 <NickE> Good day?

May 03 15:41:35 <NickE> aw

May 03 15:41:42 <SeanS> disaster strikes!!! Washing machine spinn/drain cycle unbalanced and walked away from the drain. pulling the drain line out of the drain hole

May 03 15:41:45 <senax> aww...and I usually miss the chat.

May 03 15:41:59 <Lensman> Which was a surprise... I always send him a private reminder, this is the first time he's answered.

May 03 15:42:20 * FlyingAway ducking out

May 03 15:42:21 <Lensman> Well, we can hope Ed will show up.

May 03 15:42:32 <UncleNasty> Lensman: did you check out the horizontal gene transfer article?

May 03 15:42:55 <SeanS> water everywhere!!!!

May 03 15:43:09 <Lensman> UN: Since I don't even know what you mean... No.

May 03 15:43:36 <Lensman> UN can you send me a link? Do you have my e-mail addy?

May 03 15:43:43 <UncleNasty> Lensman: for my intelligent amoeba idea:

May 03 15:44:31 <UncleNasty> intelligent amoeba == universe's best genetic engineers

May 03 15:44:55 <NickE> Blood Music?

May 03 15:45:34 <UncleNasty> not quite - it's an idea i was bouncing around a while back

May 03 15:45:42 <senax> If they're intelligent, could you ask them why they cause dysentery?

May 03 15:45:49 <UncleNasty> i chatted with you about it, didn't I sean?

May 03 15:46:42 <UncleNasty> it was a part of an idea i was throwing around for an intelligent, advanced species that did not develop the concept of cities

May 03 15:46:42 <SeanS> yeah, think so

May 03 15:46:49 <Lensman> Fascinating! I hadn't heard about transfer of genes between different species. But it seems primarily restricted to primitive microorganisms which lack a nucleus.

May 03 15:47:43 <UncleNasty> on earth, yes ;)

May 03 15:48:26 <UncleNasty> but when you include the eukaryotes, you're looking at a more complex organism

May 03 15:48:32 <mark> there is some sort of fish that is asexual that does that

May 03 15:48:56 <mark> i can't remember what it's called.

May 03 15:49:19 <Lensman> I thought the article I linked to on the Fermi Paradox was interesting. But I think he glosses over the improbability of the jump from simple bacteria to complex microorganisms with organelles, and likewise the jump from complex microbes to multi-cellular life forms. Both of those advances were a *very* long time in coming, in the fossil record, and indicate a very low-probability event.

May 03 15:50:21 <Lensman> The writer also seems to think the initial rise of primitive life is unlikely, which directly contradicts what AFAIK is current theory.

May 03 15:52:07 <UncleNasty> we have only one example and the details are lost to time - theories are one thing, but observed life exists everywhere it can... and up til recently, places where it shouldn't be able to

May 03 15:52:52 <SeanS> lensman, is this what you are talking about?

May 03 15:53:39 <Lensman> I also find it fascinating that there's evidence that higher species are directing their own evolution... that is, environmental conditions might cause certain genes to be activated during growth of the zygote, altering the organism's gene expression as it grows. One thing's for certain: Genetics is more complex than Watson & Crick realized!

May 03 15:54:37 <Lensman> No, "An Hour with Larry Niven" is decades old.

May 03 15:55:06 <mark> would love to be able to put that on the site.

May 03 15:56:09 <Lensman> Holy Kdapt! The only Google hit for "An Hour with Larry Niven" is the archive of Hippy mentioning it in our chat! Have I got the name wrong?

May 03 15:56:55 <UncleNasty> lol

May 03 16:02:51 <UncleNasty> it's gone awful quiet

May 03 16:03:26 * mark hears a pin drop

May 03 16:03:34 * SeanS is getting ready to go to a kentucky derby party

May 03 16:03:42 <NickE> sorry, multitasking including that gene transfer article (proffesional interest)

May 03 16:03:52 <UncleNasty> LOL - sry

May 03 16:04:10 * senax is getting an earful from the wife about various horses and jockeys

May 03 16:04:12 <UncleNasty> it's an intriguing concept when applied to an organism that could direct it

May 03 16:04:30 <Lensman> Well, I was Googling for any clue to "An Hour with Larry Niven".

May 03 16:04:54 <SeanS> going to a derby party is kind of a given when you live less than an hour from churchill downs

May 03 16:05:46 <SeanS> i am not really into horse racing... dad is and mentioned that the whole field is a bunch of dogs... no real stand out.

May 03 16:06:00 <Lensman> Consciously directing its own evolution? I dunno, that might backfire on a species. What if you think the wrong thing at the wrong time?

May 03 16:06:34 <UncleNasty> so, after billions of years you'd be left with the individuals who were good at it

May 03 16:07:01 <senax> Lens, that's how you get things like the platypus.

May 03 16:08:29 <Lensman> Or maybe evolution would select for those who *can't* direct their own evolution. Just as women have no conscious control over whether or not they become pregnant, and Jared Diamond argues that evolution has selected for women who can't tell just when they're fertile... so can't easily avoid pregnancy.

May 03 16:08:59 * SolBelter (~SolBelter@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 16:09:12 <Lensman> Hi SB!

May 03 16:09:24 <SolBelter> hi Dave!

May 03 16:09:24 <UncleNasty> hey SolBelter

May 03 16:09:38 <SolBelter> hi UN

May 03 16:09:47 <Lensman> SB did you get the interview with Aldo Spadoni posted?

May 03 16:10:05 <SolBelter> not yet - this week

May 03 16:10:10 * EML (~EML@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 16:10:20 <UncleNasty> hey EML

May 03 16:10:21 <EML> Hi-ho, neighbors

May 03 16:10:29 <Lensman> Welcome Ed! SB: "Real soon now", eh?

May 03 16:10:30 <senax> hi Ed

May 03 16:10:51 <NickE> Hi Ed

May 03 16:11:05 <Dan> Hello, Ed.

May 03 16:11:12 <EML> The obscure quote is too obscure for me.

May 03 16:11:42 * SolBelter has quit (Connection reset by peer)

May 03 16:11:51 <NickE> Wuops

May 03 16:12:16 <NickE> How goes it Ed?

May 03 16:12:30 <EML> So have I achived my typical antisynch with Larry?

May 03 16:12:43 <UncleNasty> it appears so

May 03 16:12:49 <NickE> well, for a change no

May 03 16:13:20 <NickE> Larry wasnt able to make it today..oh..wait.... :-)

May 03 16:14:01 <EML> Um ... how it goes. Well, in the past month I finished the first draft of a (solo) novel and started proofreading galleys for another.

May 03 16:14:16 <NickE> cool

May 03 16:14:42 <Lensman> Ed, you were asking earlier about protectors in MKW stories. I dunno how much of an answer you received. I've been reading MKW XI, and in that volume "Catspaws" and "Teachers Pet" have protectors.

May 03 16:14:59 <EML> Too many balls in the air. I need Sigmund to teach me juggling.

May 03 16:15:34 <Lensman> However, I can't say I'm impressed with the treatment of protectors. It's hard to write about characters smarter than the author. Larry seems to manage somehow.

May 03 16:15:49 <EML> Thanks, Lens. I've read Teacher's Pet. Who wrote Catspaw?

May 03 16:17:10 <Lensman> "Catspaws" is by Hal Colebatch. I've read a couple of MKW stories by him I *really* like, and I assume Larry does too since he adopted the background from Colebatch's "Telepath's Dance" into "Fly-By-Night". But "Catspaws" isn't up to snuff.

May 03 16:17:41 <NickE> I'd need to re-read

May 03 16:17:50 <EML> And as discussed here previously, MKW stories aren't necessarily canonical. Do not take that to mean something you've read is or is not reflected in the forthcoming DESTROYER OF WORLDS, only that inclusion isn't a given.

May 03 16:17:58 <Lensman> I haven't read "Teacher's Pet", but I was looking thru the stories to see if there were any protector references and I noticed that has them too. If I recall correctly, anyway.

May 03 16:18:13 <UncleNasty> who was it who did that hilarious rant on kzinti being too catlike in MKW stories?

May 03 16:18:48 * senax is off in search of the tequila bottle

May 03 16:19:45 <Lensman> I don't personally consider any MKW story "canonical", altho I do personally consider "Telepath's Dance" semi-canonical, for the reason I just gave. It's up to Larry to declare what is or isn't canonical, and AFAIK the only thing he's made clear is on /A Darker Geometry/, and we got that from you, not from him directly.

May 03 16:19:47 <EML> Harrington has done three MKW stories (a series) with Protectors: Teachers Pet, War and Peace, and Peace and Freedom.

May 03 16:20:32 <Lensman> UN:

May 03 16:20:58 <UncleNasty> that's the one - cheers, Lensman

May 03 16:22:26 * SolBelter (~SolBelter@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 16:22:29 <senax> Didn't Larry make a few remarks about ADG back in the day? IIRC it was one of the works he referred to as "breaking the playground equipment">

May 03 16:23:10 <Lensman> In "Catspaws", the protectors develop from a species called "Morlocks", cave-dwelling descendents of Pak breeders that the Pak planted on Wunderland around the same time they colonized Earth.

May 03 16:23:32 <Lensman> Of course, *all* that is completely non-canonical, and not supported by anything in canon.

May 03 16:23:36 <EML> As for A Darker Geometry, and another take on Outsiders ... the wait for truth is getting shorter. JUGGLER OF WORLDS is past proofing galleys. Alas, JOW was moved by the publisher from August to September (but that's still not long).

May 03 16:24:40 <SolBelter> re Aug to Sept, less than 3 megaseconds more time :)

May 03 16:25:18 <Lensman> Senax: That's entirely possible, I haven't been a member of this community for all that long.

May 03 16:26:21 <EML> so, anyone, what IS the source of the obscure Niven quote?

May 03 16:26:46 <UncleNasty> Dan got it earlier - Nessus at Luis Wu's party

May 03 16:27:05 <UncleNasty> Teela says he's cute

May 03 16:27:09 <SolBelter> it stumped me - it's not the burned-Chmee "bouncy kzin " scene in Ringworld

May 03 16:27:21 <SolBelter> aha!

May 03 16:28:00 <EML> UN: thanks.

May 03 16:28:02 <Lensman> That leads to the question: Why did Larry accept the story for publication? I was surprised when Paul Chafe said-- I hope this isn't putting words in his mouth, but as best as I can remember he said or implied-- that Larry requested quite a few changes as his editor. So it would appear Larry is *not* taking a "hands off" attitude towards MKW submissions.

May 03 16:28:29 <Lensman> Ed: re quote, here's a hint: It's from /Ringworld/.

May 03 16:28:32 <UncleNasty> EML: no problem

May 03 16:29:20 <SolBelter> ...and that Larry had a budget for "kill fees" for unusable stories

May 03 16:29:47 <Lensman> UN: Dan did get it earlier, yes. But the quote is *not* from Louis Wu's party.

May 03 16:30:21 <UncleNasty> Lensman: AFAICR the party never ended -people were still there...

May 03 16:30:45 <Lensman> UN: Try again. The scene does not take place on Earth.

May 03 16:31:02 <UncleNasty> ach - time for a reread, i guess

May 03 16:31:04 <SeanS> well, i must take my leave... Derby Party to attend.

May 03 16:31:15 <Lensman> Farewell, Sean.

May 03 16:31:15 <Dan> See you later, Sean!

May 03 16:31:16 <SolBelter> bye, Sean

May 03 16:31:17 <UncleNasty> have fun, sean

May 03 16:31:33 <NickE> later

May 03 16:31:37 <SeanS> i am taking a cooler full of beer and a designated driver... much fun should be had

May 03 16:31:49 <NickE> thats the way to doit alright

May 03 16:31:52 <senax> I've wondered that myself, Lensman. Maybe Larry assumed Benford, as an established major SF author, wouldn't do anything too drastic. Maybe he knew the authors personally. In any case, I'm sure he keeps a closer eye on stories set in his universe since then.

May 03 16:31:59 * Fred (~Fred@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 16:32:03 <senax> bye Sean--have fun

May 03 16:32:04 <UncleNasty> if you want a real stumper, without referring to the book, what's Prill's full name

May 03 16:32:05 <NickE> Hey Fred

May 03 16:32:07 <Dan> Hiya, Fred.

May 03 16:32:14 <UncleNasty> Hey Fred

May 03 16:32:16 <SeanS> harloprillalar

May 03 16:32:19 <Fred> harloprillalar hotrufan

May 03 16:32:20 <mark> hi fred and ed. bye sean

May 03 16:32:21 <senax> Hi Fred

May 03 16:32:22 <EML> Bye, Sean. Hi, Fred.

May 03 16:32:29 <UncleNasty> kudos to Fred

May 03 16:32:30 <NickE> Harlroloprilarlar Hartufan

May 03 16:32:36 <Fred> 2 L8

May 03 16:32:48 <NickE> bugger this typing

May 03 16:32:49 <UncleNasty> oops - almost - you missed an 'r'

May 03 16:32:58 <senax> I just call her Hal for short.

May 03 16:33:03 <Fred> and swapped a vowell

May 03 16:33:09 <UncleNasty> sommat like

May 03 16:33:15 <Dan> I think I would have spelled it with about 30 more "L"s in it.

May 03 16:33:19 <Lensman> I've just read a book review by Larry of Benford's stories, which he praises enthusiastically. Perhaps Larry is more willing to require changes from a junior author than from one he considers a master of the field?

May 03 16:33:21 <NickE> heh

May 03 16:33:25 <EML> clearly, Prill is Welsh.

May 03 16:33:30 <senax> lol ed

May 03 16:33:32 <NickE> LOL

May 03 16:34:01 * Fred is now known as fRED

May 03 16:34:02 <UncleNasty> what you saying, boyo?

May 03 16:34:05 <Lensman> Nah, Prill is obviously a fan.

May 03 16:34:19 <UncleNasty> oh gods - there's a video doing the rounds from Utah Saints - i nearly died laughing

May 03 16:34:22 * You are now known as SeanDerby

May 03 16:34:30 <UncleNasty> while we're on the subject of the welsh

May 03 16:34:46 <fRED> uncle nasty is gonna do his rare bit

May 03 16:34:48 <NickE> easy bach

May 03 16:34:57 * senax hold his nose

May 03 16:34:57 <NickE> too late

May 03 16:35:23 <senax> Is it Punday already?

May 03 16:35:41 <UncleNasty> lol - go on youtube and search for "something good 08"

May 03 16:35:48 <Lensman> So Ed: Any more hints about DESTROYER OF WORLDS that you'd care to drop today? Are you and Larry actively working on that?

May 03 16:35:56 <UncleNasty> it's a video that supposedly takes place in a pub in cardiff

May 03 16:37:37 <EML> Lens: For anyone who wasn't on last month's chat, I'll mention that DOW isn't only about protectors, it's about Pak protectors.

May 03 16:37:50 <fRED> packed full of pak

May 03 16:37:58 <EML> puckish pak

May 03 16:38:15 <NickE> Niel: WTF? Just somne crap music vids

May 03 16:38:29 <UncleNasty> did you watch it to the end?

May 03 16:39:43 <UncleNasty> NickE: sorry man - that video slays me

May 03 16:40:31 <EML> Peter Piper picks a Pak of pickled protectors ...

May 03 16:40:59 <senax> lol...he's pretty fly for a white guy.

May 03 16:41:07 <senax> :-)

May 03 16:41:13 <Lensman> Ed, something that's been discussed on the list, but from a position of ignorance: The three novels you have written/ are writing with Larry have all had the title "...of Worlds". Obviously this suggests a trilogy, but to what extent should these books be considered an actual series-within-a-series?

May 03 16:41:57 <Lensman> Pierson's Puppeteers procure pickled Pak protectors profusely.

May 03 16:41:58 <UncleNasty> it's just the thought of what would really happen if a chav tried that in a welsh pub combined with the idea that mc hammer stole his one original move from a welsh chav

May 03 16:42:18 <fRED> isn't everything on the list dicussed from a position of ignorance?

May 03 16:42:45 <Lensman> :-d

May 03 16:42:47 <NickE> Vid: OK, but I've drunk in a pub in Cardiff in teh 80s :-)

May 03 16:42:49 <senax> Who you calling ignorant, Fred?

May 03 16:43:15 <NickE> or should that be Been drunk in a pub in Cardiff in te 80s

May 03 16:43:15 <UncleNasty> i'm not ignorant, i'm just tetchy

May 03 16:43:33 <UncleNasty> NickE: spent the 80s drunk in cardiff pubs?

May 03 16:43:33 <NickE> true then!

May 03 16:43:41 <fRED> You're ignorant of whom I'm calling ignorant?

May 03 16:43:47 <EML> The Worlds books aren't consciously a trilogy. They're more of an open-ended series within Known Space, like the Ringworld books.

May 03 16:43:48 <NickE> No. Just a few times# honest

May 03 16:43:59 * senax must be doubly ignorant

May 03 16:44:13 <fRED> the ringworld books aren't a trilogy?

May 03 16:44:19 <fRED> just because there's four of 'em?

May 03 16:44:37 <UncleNasty> a trilogy in four parts? like that's gonna happen

May 03 16:44:39 <NickE> HHGTTG, Triloogy in 5 parts

May 03 16:44:46 <EML> "The Ringworld books aren't a trilogy?" Well yes they are, in a Douglas Adams sense ;-)

May 03 16:44:52 <fRED> Mary Stewart's Merlin, 4 part trilogy

May 03 16:44:58 <NickE> exactumundo

May 03 16:44:59 <UncleNasty> see! you need 5 parts for a trilogy

May 03 16:45:07 <SolBelter> here's what Ed said about the 3 books last time...

May 03 16:45:40 <Lensman> I forget, what's the term for four in a series? Quadrology? Anyway, the five books in the HHGTTG *is* still a trilogy. The last two are good only for kindling and packing material.

May 03 16:45:41 <SolBelter> 1st two connected, 3rd a standalone

May 03 16:45:58 <fRED> would you object to your published blazing across the cover THE FINAL BOOK IN THE KNOWN SPACE WORLDS TRILOGY!?

May 03 16:46:22 <senax> Some people like to call any series a trilogy from the time the third book is announced to the time the fourth book is announced. They just can't bear to pass up the chance to use a convenient label, whether it actually applies or not.

May 03 16:46:40 <fRED> why is no one ever excited about a duology?

May 03 16:47:26 <EML> two books = book + sequel. Three books is a series.

May 03 16:47:29 <Lensman> And then, after a couple more books, then publisher can blaze across the cover "THIS IS IT, THE ACTUAL FINAL LAST BOOK IN THE WORLDS SERIES, REALLY, AND WE MEAN IT THIS TIME!"

May 03 16:48:02 <SolBelter> Lens, then like the Dune publishers, ...and now six prequels!!!

May 03 16:48:09 <Lensman> fRED: I dunno, I'm of two minds about that.

May 03 16:48:33 <EML> In authorial defense, sometimes the publisher and/or fans demand the follow-on book(s).

May 03 16:48:56 <fRED> we have no one to blame for RINGWOLRD ENGINEERS but ourselves

May 03 16:49:08 <NickE> heh

May 03 16:49:11 <SolBelter> right Ed, the publisher pushes for more of assured sales rather than an unrelated work

May 03 16:49:20 <NickE> and RWC

May 03 16:49:20 <senax> Foundation is still a trilogy to me...nevermind that it was originally published as a series of short stories.

May 03 16:50:19 <SolBelter> Piers Anthony wrote a dozen original fantasy/sf books, but Ballantine /Avon/etc kept insistin g on Xanth books instead

May 03 16:50:26 <senax> Rama, though. One book. Just one book...and two volumes toilet paper between covers that has the same name.

May 03 16:50:40 <UncleNasty> rama was much like highlander

May 03 16:50:47 <SolBelter> it took him 15 years to publish the others [all single books]

May 03 16:50:48 <EML> I, for one, like to leave books with a twist ending. Usually about a week after typing "the end" I decide the twist is the basis for a whole 'nother book.

May 03 16:51:03 * Lensman has quit (Connection reset by peer)

May 03 16:51:57 <SolBelter> nod to Ed, u and Larry and many other authors see things your subconcious put it.... [afterwards]

May 03 16:52:08 <SolBelter> put in^

May 03 16:52:47 <senax> Got to run... back in a while, I hope...

May 03 16:53:09 * senax (~frank@24.252.63.XXX) has left #knownspace

May 03 16:53:19 <SolBelter> Clarke had NO intent to do more than one -the "ramans do everything in things" was added in galleys last minute thought

May 03 16:54:11 <EML> Maybe it's our subconsciouses ... however, I see it simply as putting in unrelated stuff for color, and then liking that background.

May 03 16:54:30 <UncleNasty> let's face it, if down-in-flames ever goes into publication, to make a proper job gentry lee should co-author it

May 03 16:56:13 <SolBelter> sure, conscionce thot too.

May 03 16:57:11 <SolBelter> or u toss off something and realize there has to be an explaination or backstory

May 03 16:57:13 * Lensman (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 16:57:53 <Lensman> Hello?

May 03 16:58:37 <EML> Yup ... thinking about back story is a powerful device.

May 03 16:58:45 <UncleNasty> wb Lensman

May 03 16:58:54 * rimworlder (~rimworlder@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 16:59:19 <Lensman> Bloody Powerloss! You'd think with an electrical substation only 1.5 miles from my home, I wouldn't be made a futzy Ptavv so often!

May 03 16:59:29 <rimworlder> hi guys, sorry I'm late - had to take the wife shopping

May 03 16:59:49 <Lensman> Hello Rim.

May 03 16:59:50 <UncleNasty> hey rimworlder

May 03 16:59:52 <EML> Hi, Rim.

May 03 16:59:58 <rimworlder> hi (waves)

May 03 17:00:04 <NickE> hi

May 03 17:00:16 <UncleNasty> back in a bit - got to fish some cable

May 03 17:00:24 <rimworlder> lensman - I feel for you. I lived in FL and every time the wind blew the power went out

May 03 17:00:39 <SolBelter> hi rw!

May 03 17:00:45 <rimworlder> howdy sol

May 03 17:00:54 <EML> You need one of those handcranked 3rd-world PCs.

May 03 17:01:11 <rimworlder> eml - I think the hamster wheel versioonis more reliable

May 03 17:01:47 <SolBelter> Lens, get a tnuctipun mech for your power, or use sunflowers instead

May 03 17:01:55 <rimworlder> so, did I miss anything important?

May 03 17:02:29 <rimworlder> sunflowers - yes. I saw a solar panelled backpack today

May 03 17:02:29 <EML> back to back story ... Sigmund Ausfaler showd up in three of Larry's stories: Neytron Star, Borderland of Sol, and Ghost.

May 03 17:02:45 <Lensman> Rim: Oh, nothing much, Larry just revealed how scrith is made, that's all.

May 03 17:02:50 <EML> I got to wondering why ...

May 03 17:03:02 <rimworlder> darn - and you're all going to keep it a secret from me, right?

May 03 17:03:13 <NickE> of course :-)

May 03 17:03:14 <SolBelter> and Ausfeller got more dangerous each time...

May 03 17:03:26 <Lensman> Yup, we were sworn to secrecy. :D

May 03 17:03:32 <NickE> Siggie is interesting

May 03 17:03:34 <rimworlder> does making it require virgins?

May 03 17:03:50 <EML> Did Sig? Maybe Bey is a less than objective observor.

May 03 17:04:00 <Lensman> Of course... all great sacrifices do!

May 03 17:04:09 <SolBelter> rim, u take scree and squeeze it til it becomes scrith instead...

May 03 17:04:26 <rimworlder> lol. I prefer squeezing virgins

May 03 17:04:40 <EML> only if you like OLive Oyl.

May 03 17:04:56 <SolBelter> but virgins are anon-renewable resource!

May 03 17:05:01 <Lensman> I wouldn't say Siggy got more dangerous in "Ghost". In fact, I though he came off as rather ineffectual.

May 03 17:05:03 <rimworlder> yeah, there's an old joke about that

May 03 17:05:23 <rimworlder> sol - I don't think that church down in texas would agree with that statement

May 03 17:06:01 <EML> There is much about Sigmund soon to be revealed. I think y'all will find him much more sympathetic than Beowulf does.

May 03 17:06:14 <fRED> we'd almost have to

May 03 17:06:38 <rimworlder> EML - does sigmund get involved with any virgins?

May 03 17:06:45 <fRED> Nessus

May 03 17:06:53 <SolBelter> this triggers my paranoia! re Ausfaller :)

May 03 17:06:57 <Lensman> Yah, he didn't sabotage *my* plans for escaping blackmailing Puppeteers and selling a valuable warship on the black market!

May 03 17:07:07 <rimworlder> oh cool virgin rishathra

May 03 17:07:33 <SolBelter> good point Lens, Bey was out for himself

May 03 17:07:46 <EML> Sigmund's sexual activity will await publication ... I hate to reduce the suspense.

May 03 17:09:55 <Lensman> Following /Destroyer of Worlds/... /Siggy and the Virgin Cult of Margrave/

May 03 17:10:14 <rimworlder> sorry - I just got off on a virgin thing. I'm kinda better now

May 03 17:10:37 <EML> on the verge of virgin?

May 03 17:10:44 <Lensman> "What is the one thing all men seek, only to destroy it?"

May 03 17:10:58 <fRED> sports cars

May 03 17:11:04 <rimworlder> EML - who do I talk to to make sure I get an early release copy of destroyer so I can stroke egos again...?

May 03 17:11:56 <SolBelter> Rim, the pub offers advance copies, but in stasis box :)

May 03 17:12:33 <EML> Rim: well, you'e a bit ahead of the game

May 03 17:12:57 <rimworlder> thanks sol - I was basically asking if there was someone assigned to PR that I could write to

May 03 17:13:12 <rimworlder> EML - I know - early bird gets the worm, late worm stays alive...

May 03 17:13:20 <Lensman> Rim: Ask about /Juggler of Worlds/. /Destroyer/ hasn't been written yet.

May 03 17:13:28 <EML> brb

May 03 17:13:31 <rimworlder> duh - I am ahead of mysef;

May 03 17:13:49 <rimworlder> comes from thinking about virgins

May 03 17:14:18 <Lensman> If you're thinking about the *heads* of virgins, you're doing it wrong.

May 03 17:14:19 <SolBelter> sure Rim, but the best way is to publicize news you get from the pub or review a book or ten, then they put u on the promo lists [but u want just *one* book]

May 03 17:14:40 <rimworlder> sol, already doing it over at and

May 03 17:14:52 <SolBelter> swell rim!

May 03 17:14:58 <rimworlder> I asked Mr. Lerner cause he said he liked my review of Fleet

May 03 17:15:15 <SolBelter> ah [not yah]

May 03 17:15:58 <rimworlder> I always try to go to the top - saves time; worst that happens is (usually) a polite 'no'

May 03 17:16:59 <fRED> so, anacronism question time

May 03 17:17:28 <fRED> the new INDIANA JONES AND THE VARIOUS PLOTS FROM STARGATE trailer has a clock like this on a fiendish device

May 03 17:17:29 <fRED>

May 03 17:17:33 <Dan> Is it a Creative Anachronism?

May 03 17:17:33 <SolBelter> fRED, u asked that last century :D

May 03 17:17:47 <fRED> assuming it's not actually made of LEDs

May 03 17:17:57 <fRED> but little red Xmas lights or something

May 03 17:18:23 <fRED> what's the earliest something like that would have existed?

May 03 17:18:47 <SolBelter> nixie tubes were red...1930s?

May 03 17:19:42 <fRED> this is built with individual bulbs

May 03 17:19:49 <rimworlder> oh - jeez, NOT leds; yeah, probably early 30s

May 03 17:20:28 <Lensman> We were watching one of those promo/history of a film things at Laser Rangers, and they showed a movie marquee where the star's name was "up in lights". Our youngest member said "I didn't know they had digital displays back then!" There was some laughter as we explained that it was all analog, and that the individual lights were regular lightbulbs.

May 03 17:20:40 <rimworlder> lol

May 03 17:20:47 <SolBelter> i googed but didnt read

May 03 17:21:12 <rimworlder> that dot display could also have been done with a red-painted bulb and some punch cards

May 03 17:21:42 <rimworlder> on a flip roller

May 03 17:21:50 <Lensman> What's the earliest it *could* have existed? Well, I'd say shortly after the invention of the earliest light bulbs. There's nothing in that picture to give it scale, after all... could be pretty big.

May 03 17:22:21 <SolBelter> huh! 1954 introduced, so i'm wrong

May 03 17:22:34 <rimworlder> or a wheel

May 03 17:22:39 <fRED> ack. there's not only one on the fiendish device, there's a huge one over the door to the fiendish device room

May 03 17:23:03 <SolBelter> aha! goes back to 1920s Similar devices that functioned in the same way were patented in the 1920s, and the first mass-produced display tubes were introduced in the late 1930s by National Union Co. and Telefunken. However, their construction was cruder, and they failed to find many applications until digital electronics reached a suitable level of development in the 1950s.

May 03 17:23:06 <rimworlder> hell; the dials on one of my old b&w tv sets was backlighted so the current channel number 'glowed'

May 03 17:23:21 <Lensman> Use one of the old punch-card controllers like automated looms used to use... no reason it couldn't have been done in the 1880s.

May 03 17:23:28 * senax (~frank@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 17:24:30 <rimworlder> generally speaking, there's not much that couldn't have been done with the tech from about 1880-1910 on - if you weren't worried about economics or size

May 03 17:24:33 <Dan> WB, senax

May 03 17:24:39 <senax> Hi again

May 03 17:25:04 <fRED> it just looks so 1970s

May 03 17:25:05 <Lensman> Rim, what's a "flip roller"?

May 03 17:25:23 <senax> I should be using one of my desktop boxes so I wouldn't have to disconnect (I'm on a laptop)

May 03 17:25:38 <mark> love nixie tubes

May 03 17:25:43 <mark> i used to have loads of them

May 03 17:25:50 <rimworlder> my made up term for cards mounted on a wheel so they successively drop in front of a lamp or display - couldn't remember the correct term

May 03 17:25:54 <Lensman> I connected via Trillian but when my power went out I couldn't rejoin, so I'm back on mIRC.

May 03 17:26:19 <SolBelter> flip roller was a paper and hinged [paper and glue] imitator of digital displays in 1970s

May 03 17:26:44 * senax pours a shot of tequila

May 03 17:26:48 <SolBelter> if i'm thinking of what rim is

May 03 17:26:50 <Lensman> Rim: Okay, that's the same sort of thing I meant by the automated loom card control, altho I think it used pins and not lights to detect holes.

May 03 17:28:09 <SolBelter> my thought was for something diff - it had 60 numerals for minutes mounted on a roll and would flip one by one every min, doz numerals for hours too

May 03 17:28:26 <rimworlder> the card reader first used pins, then light - but by then magnetic media was starting to get reliable

May 03 17:28:30 <SolBelter> but it displayed only, not as input device

May 03 17:29:02 <SolBelter> nodding at what lens and rim are thinking of instead

May 03 17:29:20 <rimworlder> sol - yep - same basic idea. I've got this hypothesis that when it comes to tech (especially military tech) "old tech" can ALWAYS beat "new tech"

May 03 17:29:51 <rimworlder> I had to program on punch cards years ago

May 03 17:30:00 <SolBelter> rim, and the clock radio display i'm mentioning was far cheaper at the time

May 03 17:30:07 <rimworlder> rubberbands were VERY important technology

May 03 17:30:20 <SolBelter> proving your point [in one case]

May 03 17:31:04 <rimworlder> yeah. another would be oily rags set on fire and dropped onto the engine intakes on soviet tanks... or road flares used to defeat (old style) light amplification goggles

May 03 17:31:15 <SolBelter> lol re punch cards, and hope the deck didnt swell from moisture, producing errors or jams

May 03 17:31:28 <rimworlder> or just didn't jam up feeding in

May 03 17:32:35 <rimworlder> an abacus or a sliderule don't care about EMP...

May 03 17:32:47 <SolBelter> a 1950s=60s comedy staple was having someone step on a punch card with golf shoes and reclassify Sgt Bilko's staffer , for instance

May 03 17:33:43 <rimworlder> lol

May 03 17:33:59 <senax> Golf shoes have changed since then too :-)

May 03 17:34:00 <Lensman> "Do not fold, spindle or mutilate."

May 03 17:34:02 <SolBelter> this discussion is hilarious re KSpace meeting higher techs [slaver/outsider/etc]

May 03 17:34:07 <fRED> in the 70s they did the same trick with floppies

May 03 17:34:08 <rimworlder> hey - totally off subject, but - is anyone here involved in any way with internet advertising sales?

May 03 17:34:35 <fRED> if 'by any way' you included 'being constantly bombarded by scams' then yes

May 03 17:34:45 <senax> lol

May 03 17:34:51 <mark> i was fooling scammers for a while

May 03 17:34:53 <mark> that can be fun

May 03 17:35:10 <Lensman> We used to get gov't checks printed on a punched card. I guess the bank used the card for processing?

May 03 17:35:10 <rimworlder> fred - I was at AT&T when we were switching over from 5.25 to 3.5 floppies; we issued an instructional program (CBT) on both sizes; one secretary literally folded a 5.25 in half to fit it into the 3.5 slot

May 03 17:35:10 <SolBelter> my only experience is measuring metrics in Second Life lands, not internet

May 03 17:35:24 <fRED> ouch

May 03 17:35:44 <rimworlder> we had to take two techs on a road trip to figure out what the 'problem' was

May 03 17:35:53 <SolBelter> *crack!* snap!

May 03 17:35:54 <fRED> remember the story about the secretary who would fold letters in half before faxing them so the recipient wouldn't read them?

May 03 17:36:21 <rimworlder> sol - it fit, but that's about it

May 03 17:36:41 <senax> That's like sending a mission to the sun at night so it won't be so hot

May 03 17:36:47 <rimworlder> I knew another guy who's kid slid a peanut butter and jelly sandwich into the drive slot - thought it was a toaster slot

May 03 17:36:56 <SolBelter> "we rotated the data thru the 3rd dimension"

May 03 17:37:14 * senax finished Brin's _Sundiver_ recently.

May 03 17:37:28 <fRED> hey, anybody watch SMALLVILLE?

May 03 17:37:29 <rimworlder> actually - we very carefully explained the different formats to the secretary, and then recommended to her boss that she should NOT be allowed to use the copier either

May 03 17:37:38 <Lensman> And example of a "major delusion" in GURPS roleplaying game: "Ice cream is good for computers. Spoon it right in!" :D

May 03 17:37:42 <SolBelter> great book, senax, but the series really sprawls

May 03 17:37:47 <rimworlder> lol

May 03 17:37:59 <fRED> 2 weeks ago they did the biggest howler ever

May 03 17:38:04 <SolBelter> but u dont have to wait a decade to read it all now

May 03 17:38:04 <EML> huh ... long phone call. If I've been ignoring anyone, that's why.

May 03 17:38:10 <fRED> they're trying to track down Brainiac

May 03 17:38:11 <rimworlder> sol - agreed, but I think its to help make each individual story readable without relying on the series

May 03 17:38:25 <fRED> Clark says "if only we knew what his power source was"

May 03 17:38:30 <rimworlder> no problem ed

May 03 17:38:39 <senax> Liked _Sundiver_, but _Staratide Rising_ seems slow to me so far...

May 03 17:38:40 <fRED> Kara thinks and carefully says . . . "could it be . . . energy?"

May 03 17:38:41 <Lensman> Well, I TRY to watch Smallville, but we had tornado alerts Thursday and I only got to see the first 15 minutes of the show. Reminds me, I need to look and see if it's available to watch online.

May 03 17:38:47 <fRED> Clark leaps into action!

May 03 17:38:47 <rimworlder> fred - lol - maybe he needs to go to his fortress and think about it

May 03 17:38:58 <fRED> "Yes! Energy! that MUST be it!"

May 03 17:39:03 <SolBelter> rim, surw but the last 3 had major cliffhangers

May 03 17:39:19 <fRED> "Chloe, set google earth to search for outbreaks of . . . energy!"

May 03 17:39:34 <rimworlder> sol - true - and it was a bit annoying, but the scale and his aliens made it worthwhile (for me)

May 03 17:39:35 <SolBelter> lol re energy,

May 03 17:39:40 <fRED> and of course it shows them all, in real time

May 03 17:39:40 <Lensman> Yah, the "energy!" thing. *Sigh*

May 03 17:39:47 <EML> I'm gonna cut out, people. Happy Derby Day.

May 03 17:39:53 <fRED> night ed

May 03 17:39:58 <rimworlder> hey - night night

May 03 17:39:58 <senax> Later Ed

May 03 17:40:00 <Dan> Later, Ed!

May 03 17:40:05 <Lensman> Seanax, /Sundiver/ has one of my very favorite quotes of all time... maybe THE favorite.

May 03 17:40:09 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

May 03 17:40:17 <rimworlder> which is?

May 03 17:40:18 <SolBelter> rim, oh i liked Uplift books - i guess the long waits got to me

May 03 17:40:25 * senax waits for it...

May 03 17:40:37 <Lensman> But I didn't care for any later ones in the Uplift series.

May 03 17:41:05 <rimworlder> sundiver, startide and then - didn't like?

May 03 17:41:14 <senax> I'll read the forst trilogy (there's that word again!) anyway

May 03 17:41:25 <SolBelter> the quote?

May 03 17:41:31 <rimworlder> yeah - where's the quote?

May 03 17:41:37 * senax was wondering about the quote too...

May 03 17:41:45 <Lensman> Well, I didn't care for /Startide Rising/ at all, so haven't tried any of the later ones.

May 03 17:41:48 <SolBelter> or paraphrase it ...

May 03 17:41:56 <SolBelter> oh my favorite typo

May 03 17:42:06 <rimworlder> yeah - got enough people around here making hints with no resolution

May 03 17:42:09 <Lensman> Give me a minute. It's a LONG quote.

May 03 17:42:17 <rimworlder> lol;

May 03 17:42:40 <SolBelter> biggest word processor of all time Uplift had a big "phrased-array" radar, not phased-array

May 03 17:42:42 <rimworlder> (note to self: never mention quote without said quote handy)

May 03 17:42:49 <SolBelter> so i assumed it wrote books too

May 03 17:42:51 <rimworlder> lol

May 03 17:43:00 <senax> ugh

May 03 17:43:05 <rimworlder> could have been a music processor

May 03 17:43:17 <SolBelter> true rim!

May 03 17:43:29 <rimworlder> something like the Krang

May 03 17:44:20 <SolBelter> i'd forgotten that - Alan Dean Foster? re Tar-Aiym Krang

May 03 17:44:28 <rimworlder> yes

May 03 17:44:57 <SolBelter> gee, gone from my memory as to Krang details...3

May 03 17:45:03 <rimworlder> has anyone ever done anything with alien's fighting with music or musical weapons? (not spells...)

May 03 17:45:16 <rimworlder> sol - me too, but it made a hellacious noise

May 03 17:45:25 <Dan> Alan Dean Foster's "Spellsinger"

May 03 17:45:30 <rimworlder> Dan - not spells

May 03 17:46:02 <SolBelter> "any suff advanced music is indistinguishable from..."

May 03 17:46:16 <fRED> crap?

May 03 17:46:22 <Dan> Synergy!

May 03 17:46:23 <SolBelter> re tech, not spells

May 03 17:46:27 <senax> ...silence?

May 03 17:46:44 <rimworlder> sol - yeah - or : the ukelele corps was wiped out to a man by amplified trombones

May 03 17:47:13 <senax> bagpipes as a WMD

May 03 17:47:13 <Dan> I have a scene in one of my stories where a robot kills a bunch of aliens by playing a Led Zepplin song, at full volume.

May 03 17:47:18 <rimworlder> that's one long quote...

May 03 17:47:48 <rimworlder> dan - reminiscent of back to the future - mcfly being awakened by the walkman...

May 03 17:47:55 <SolBelter> i own this pic, so grab a copy clarke's 3rd law

May 03 17:48:00 <Dan> Exactly.

May 03 17:48:02 * senax pictures Lensman furiously typing away as he transcribes a whole chapter...

May 03 17:48:17 <Lensman> The Krang is from /The Tar-Ayam Krang/, first of the Flinx & Pip series.

May 03 17:48:18 <rimworlder> I think he's still flipping through the book

May 03 17:48:30 <SolBelter> senax, he's chistling onto stone tablets first

May 03 17:48:32 <fRED> flipping or flupping?

May 03 17:48:37 <rimworlder> lens - yes, and when they set it off it was 'ear-splitting' or some such

May 03 17:49:05 <senax> fighting aliens with music...does FLCL qualify?

May 03 17:49:07 <rimworlder> senax - just saw the mention of the pipes; those ARE weapons of war.

May 03 17:49:35 <Dan> Byt he latest book in the Flinx & Pip series, Flinx finds out that there's more than one Krang - and the others are needed to "Save The Universe".

May 03 17:49:41 <SolBelter> Karl Schroeder in Ventus has a character put his fingers in his ears as a ship lands next/near him - good idea

May 03 17:50:01 <rimworlder> dan - haven't got to the latest two Pip adventures

May 03 17:50:21 <Dan> I probably don't either, Rim..

May 03 17:50:24 <Dan> LOL!

May 03 17:50:41 <SolBelter> in the Flinx commonwealth gurps module, Foster said he has the ending, and is working towards it

May 03 17:50:48 <Dan> I buy verything in paperback. Writers usually stay a book or two ahead of me.

May 03 17:51:03 <Lensman> [Part I] Call me lifegiver, for I am your sustenance. I burn, and by my burning you live. I stand, and in standing supply your anchor. Space curls around, my blanket, and funnels down to mystery in my bowels. Time beats his scythe on my forge.

May 03 17:51:08 <rimworlder> senax - I once read a description of pipe music that went something like this: "shave all the hair off of a large tomcat's testicles and strap a block of dry ice to them; the resulting caterwauling will be somewhat reminiscent of the sound the bagpipes make"

May 03 17:51:14 <Lensman> [Part II] Living thing, doe Entropy, my wicked Aunt, notice our joint consipiracy? Not yet, It think, for you are yet too small. Your puny struggle againts her tide is a fluttering in a great wind. And she thinks I am still her ally.

May 03 17:51:25 <Lensman> [Part III] Pity the stars, oh living thing! We sing away the aeons in pretended joy as we toil for His cruel sister, awaiting the day of your maturity, you tiny embryo, when He turns you loose to change the way of things again.

May 03 17:51:54 <rimworlder> lens - what was that from, I forgot...?

May 03 17:52:19 <senax> That was from Sundiver? Doesn't ring a bell--what part of the book?

May 03 17:52:31 <Lensman> No, I was NOT flipping thru the book. I have the passage noted. I spoze I should have it archived in text form, for future uses such as this.

May 03 17:52:57 <rimworlder> rings a vague bell

May 03 17:53:08 <rimworlder> lol - lens - sorry. don't get bent

May 03 17:53:41 <Lensman> From /Sundiver/ by David Brin. First book (I think) in the Uplift series.

May 03 17:53:51 <rimworlder> lens - yes, listed as such

May 03 17:54:01 <rimworlder> who/what spoke thus?

May 03 17:54:27 <Lensman> Well, sound weapons: The "shout" weapons in /Dune/, but those aren't "music".

May 03 17:54:33 <Dan> Zarathrustra'a Mother-In-Law?

May 03 17:54:36 <rimworlder> lens - and that was the movie

May 03 17:54:46 <rimworlder> (yech)

May 03 17:54:55 <senax> I have the book here, Lens. If you tell me what chapter, I can check the context.

May 03 17:55:20 <SolBelter> Ventus by Schroeder [i'm 2/3 rds done] is free ebook at

May 03 17:55:28 <Lensman> Chapter 28. The Sun is speaking... a real or imagined conversation. Probably the latter, altho that's quite unclear.

May 03 17:55:47 <rimworlder> ok - now I (somewhat) remember

May 03 17:55:50 <SolBelter> re holding ears when ship fast-lands

May 03 17:56:18 <senax> Rickenbacker 4001 bass against space pirates. ..good enough?

May 03 17:56:30 <rimworlder> senax - sure

May 03 17:56:49 <SolBelter> a non-fli x novel hinted at lovecraftian things from another dimension as the adversaries

May 03 17:57:33 <SolBelter> re flinx's ultimate enemy

May 03 17:58:15 <Dan> Ah! Music as a weapon: Hawkwind - "Sonic Attack" As I recall, the members of Hawkwind were good friends with Michael Moorcock. He wrote a book with them as characters. "Time of the Hawklords" was the title, I think. I could go look.

May 03 17:58:23 <Lensman> Oops, I see I did not sufficiently proofread Part II.

May 03 17:58:28 <Lensman> [Part II] Living thing, does Entropy, my wicked Aunt, notice our joint conspiracy? Not yet, I think, for you are yet too small. Your puny struggle against her tide is a fluttering in a great wind. And she thinks I am still her ally.

May 03 17:59:07 <Dan> Yes, I remembered the title correctly.

May 03 17:59:41 <Lensman> Anyway, I think it is such a *wonderful* conceit that the Sun is in a "conspiracy" with Life itself to fundamentally change the universe, to conspire against Entropy. And that's pretty much what life is-- a struggle against Entropy.

May 03 18:00:10 <SolBelter> Lens, for a more menaching but lofty view, try Benford Eater, when a setient black hole arrives in Sol system...

May 03 18:01:00 <SolBelter> yes, Lens, Eater is a smaller universe view, but from the hole's point of view too

May 03 18:01:32 <SolBelter> Brin is much more optimistic and galaxy/universe spanning

May 03 18:02:02 <Lensman> I tried Benford once: /As on a Darkling Plain/ if I recall. Did not like it, did not like the lack of ending, was told other books by him have the same problem. Just read a long-ish review by Larry of three Benford novels, and I now have a clearer idea of why I don't like Benford and never will.

May 03 18:02:41 <SolBelter> Bova wrote Darkling

May 03 18:03:11 <SolBelter> but Benford is very dry - Eater is his most "human" book re characters

May 03 18:03:35 <SolBelter> and a definite ending!

May 03 18:03:41 <Lensman> Oops! I have just inserted foot in mouth... yah /Plain/ is by Ben Bova.

May 03 18:04:45 <SolBelter> i still cant come up with any music/weapon titles...

May 03 18:04:49 <Lensman> But the universe Larry describes, in Benford's books, is one where life keeps getting wiped out by the machines, and the situation is hopeless. Doesn't sound like my cup of tea.

May 03 18:05:13 * NickE has quit (Connection reset by peer)

May 03 18:05:20 <Lensman> I have the same problem with the Berserker series.

May 03 18:05:34 <SolBelter> true re Benford "Galactic Center" hexology but ...[spoiler deleted]

May 03 18:05:35 * NickE (~NickE@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 18:05:52 * Dan duct tapes NickE to the channel.

May 03 18:06:12 <Lensman> What I want to know is: Who's the snobbish aristocrat who keeps kicking people out? (Connection reset by peer)

May 03 18:06:15 <NickE> bluddy windoze

May 03 18:06:59 <SolBelter> no, no, not snobbish, a peer of yours grin

May 03 18:07:15 <Lensman> SB :)

May 03 18:08:00 * senax hides cable behind his back

May 03 18:08:05 <senax> Wasn't me!

May 03 18:08:42 <Lensman> Seriously, what does "peer" mean in this context?

May 03 18:09:53 <Dan> That would be a question for Sean when he comes back from his party. But I'll hazard a guess if you'd like/

May 03 18:10:16 <Lensman> I'd like.

May 03 18:12:56 <Dan> Peer might be a subroutene in the IRC software that monitors ping time to different users. If the routing from a user's home computer to the chat server becomes too long, the user gets booted off of IRC and has to reconnect. Reconnection usually results in a quicker signal path from user to server.

May 03 18:13:59 <Lensman> Rim: re yecch: Yes, the /Dune/ sound weapons were seen in the flup movie, but not in the wonderful mini-series.

May 03 18:14:48 <Lensman> Dan: Okay, thanx.

May 03 18:14:53 <SolBelter> enjoy your weekend, gentlebeings!

May 03 18:15:05 <Dan> Remember Lensman, I'm just guessing.

May 03 18:15:12 <Lensman> Are you bidding us farewell, SB?

May 03 18:15:37 <Lensman> Dan: So noted.

May 03 18:15:39 <senax> bye sb

May 03 18:15:58 <SolBelter> yes, Lens, off to RL and posting Aldo's Free Fall interview :D

May 03 18:16:18 <Dan> See you later, SolBelter.

May 03 18:16:28 <Lensman> SB: Aldo is waiting for the interview to be posted! (Pushing? Who, me? Pardon while I dust my handprints off your back...)

May 03 18:16:59 <rimworlder> later whoever's leaving; I just had to respond to a chance to earn some more money writing

May 03 18:17:30 <rimworlder> I always thought the berzerker stories were HOPEFUL. ultimate sacrifice in the name of life and all that

May 03 18:17:38 <Lensman> Anyway, thanks for joining us again, SB. (Yes, we *were* coming apart!) :D

May 03 18:18:35 <rimworlder> bye sol (I've caught up)

May 03 18:18:44 <Lensman> Well, I kinda liked Larry's Berserker story. Turning a Berserker against the rest, using a computer "trojan horse". Yah, fight fire with fire!

May 03 18:18:52 * SolBelter waves here's the interview...[i have to add credits later [wrked during this chat]

May 03 18:19:31 <rimworlder> its tough to write when a yorkie is chewing on your foot

May 03 18:19:55 <rimworlder> lens - yes, I liked that story as well - can't remember the title

May 03 18:20:13 <Dan> A Teardrop Falls

May 03 18:20:17 * SolBelter has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

May 03 18:20:39 <Dan> If I remember correctly, that is.

May 03 18:20:47 <senax> Huh. Turns out ALdo works for the same company as me. Small world...

May 03 18:20:50 * FlyingAway is now known as FlyingDragon

May 03 18:21:02 <Dan> Hiya again, Carol!

May 03 18:21:03 <FlyingDragon> Hello

May 03 18:21:25 <senax> Small world...and a big company! :-)

May 03 18:21:39 <Lensman> Ah, good. Aldo e-mailed me the other day and mentioned the news item I posted re "Free Fall" at the news site, and I mentioned that I ought to do a follow-up item about the interview... which I then realized hadn't yet been posted.

May 03 18:22:08 <Lensman> "A Teardrop Falls" sounds right, thanx.

May 03 18:22:19 <Lensman> WB Carol!

May 03 18:22:22 <FlyingDragon> TY

May 03 18:22:32 <senax> hi Carol

May 03 18:22:34 <FlyingDragon> Tired from driving around. ANd I didn't even skate!

May 03 18:22:43 <FlyingDragon> HEllo, all

May 03 18:23:20 <Lensman> Speaking of Aldo, he offered to provide some more pictures from "The Niven Project" for my website's gallery, but I don't know yet what he'll be sending.

May 03 18:23:59 <Dan> Carol, do you know offhand if Larry and his wife attended a Con near the Grand Canyon about 1977? And if so, did Larry wind up in an argument with a crazy Native American dude over what channel should be playing in the hotel's lobby?

May 03 18:24:32 <Dan> On the TV in the htel's lobby, rather.

May 03 18:25:30 <FlyingDragon> I have no idea. But that was back when he was drinking, so maybe not as calm cool and collected.

May 03 18:25:49 <FlyingDragon> Sounds like you have a vague memory?

May 03 18:25:59 <Dan> My wife wound up meeting a guy on her trip to New Mexico who claimed to have gotten into a dust-up with Larry at a con back then.

May 03 18:26:15 <FlyingDragon> Maybe. People shouldn't drink so much.

May 03 18:26:41 * senax hides his glass of tequila

May 03 18:26:56 <senax> Yeah!

May 03 18:26:58 * Dan gots to the fridge after yet another beer.

May 03 18:27:20 * FlyingDragon sips on a lovely cup of Japanese Matcha whipped green tea

May 03 18:28:40 <Dan> LOL!

May 03 18:28:58 <Dan> I think it's a case of "name yer poison."

May 03 18:29:17 <Lensman> I'm often struck by how often some authors describe their characters drinking liquor. Seems like any time two or more people sit down to talk, there has to be liquor served. Piper does that. Larry did too, back in the sixties and seventies.

May 03 18:29:32 <senax> Some people shouldn't drink so much...some shouldn't drink at all.

May 03 18:29:53 <Lensman> Lensman takes another sip of plain ol' muddy Kansas River tapwater.

May 03 18:29:54 <senax> Me, I think I'll have another shot of tequila.

May 03 18:30:14 <Dan> In any case, Lyn only knows Larry through my memories of meeting him 3 or 4 years ago at a con in Tennessee, and she couldn't reconcile my opinion of him with the tale this crazy dude on her bus was telling her.

May 03 18:30:15 <FlyingDragon> Authors like to describe theri characters as doing something they would do. If you read Barry Longyear, anytime one of his characters drink alcohol, something bad is about to happen.

May 03 18:31:46 * yCrazyEdd (~CrazyEddy@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 18:32:42 <Lensman> Yah, and of course in Larry's early stories, the characters often smoked, too. So yah, it does seem as though it's often a reflection of the writer's habits.

May 03 18:32:46 <Dan> I've done that. In a detective story I had the main character light up a cigarette every tim I did whilst I was writing. I took a couple of months to write the story, but the timeframe for the character was roughly two days. He looked like a really heavy chainsmoker.

May 03 18:33:52 <FlyingDragon> Not good narattive to say "He stood there quietly with his hands by his side, waiting."

May 03 18:34:03 * yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy

May 03 18:34:35 <Lensman> Chain-smoker. Marty Feldman strung cigarettes on a string and hung them from his neck, so he could quickly light the next one when one burned down. No surprise he died from lung cancer.

May 03 18:35:26 <FlyingDragon> My sister insisted that since she didn't have lung cancer, that it didn't matter if she kept smoking.

May 03 18:36:05 <Lensman> Well, denial can be a healthy thing. We all deny our mortality, after all. But it can easily be taken too far.

May 03 18:36:07 <FlyingDragon> What she meant was it didn't matter if she continued to pollute her system since she was going to die anyway.

May 03 18:37:30 <Lensman> So, anybody read any good books lately? The latest one I'll rave about is S.M. Stirling

May 03 18:37:40 <Lensman> Stirling's /The Sky People/.

May 03 18:38:16 <mark> still reading the master and commander stuff. Up to book 8 now

May 03 18:38:20 <rimworlder> couple things: I vaguely remember Larry discussing a grand canyon trip from that period of time - but that's all. and remember 'happy hour' and having a drink for sociability was big before all the anti-drunk driving stuff

May 03 18:38:36 <Lensman> I just re-read /The Time Machine/ and was surprised at how short it was. I wanted to re-read the original before venturing Jeter's /Morlock Night/.

May 03 18:38:46 <senax> Gotta run. Sorry. It was fun...

May 03 18:38:56 <rimworlder> I stopped drinking in HS - but then, I started homeroom off with a pint of whiskey...

May 03 18:39:02 * senax (~frank@24.252.63.XXX) has left #knownspace

May 03 18:39:02 <Lensman> Bye Senax

May 03 18:40:13 <rimworlder> I just 'tried' to read Cloud Cuckoo Land by Steven Sivell

May 03 18:41:01 <Lensman> I never got into either smoking or drinking, thank GhuGhu. I have a very sensitive sense of smell/taste and don't care for the taste of alcohol. Which isn't to say I have no vices... like overeating.

May 03 18:41:04 <FlyingDragon> I don't know for sure, but I think Larry stopped drinking in the late '80s.

May 03 18:42:02 <rimworlder> short review of CCL: reads like something written by Howard Hughes after he started pissing in mason jars.

May 03 18:42:29 <mark> i bet the jars would sell well on ebay

May 03 18:42:52 <rimworlder> Oh - I've run the gamut of 'altered states'

May 03 18:42:56 <Lensman> Larry has written about stopping smoking. From his behavior at cons, he never struck me as a heavy drinker.

May 03 18:43:16 <rimworlder> no harm, no foul - and some interesting stories to tell

May 03 18:43:16 <FlyingDragon> Lensman, you've read Inferno, right?????

May 03 18:43:43 <Lensman> FD: Yes, once, maybe twice.

May 03 18:43:55 * NickE has quit ()

May 03 18:43:57 <rimworlder> mark - yes, I'm sure they would. ersatz Hughes piss would probably sell almost as well

May 03 18:44:04 <FlyingDragon> Carpentier is Larry.

May 03 18:44:19 <Dan> Thankfully, Larry is tolerant of those of us who do tend to drink.

May 03 18:44:21 <rimworlder> Flying - of course it is/was

May 03 18:44:21 <mark> rim -> you're giving me ideas. I could use some money to fund my kids education

May 03 18:44:53 <Lensman> Okay, well I'm sure you've seen him at many more cons than I have. But then, I never met him until '76.

May 03 18:45:06 <rimworlder> mark - I wanted to sell 'cabbage patch abortions' on ebay: drop a brussel sprout in olive oil in a jar and give it a doctor's certificate

May 03 18:45:17 <mark> bahahahahahaha!

May 03 18:45:30 <mark> your a bad man

May 03 18:45:34 <rimworlder> if you go with that one, I get 10%

May 03 18:45:37 <Lensman> Anyway, I *am* sure Larry never died by falling out of a con suite window! :D

May 03 18:45:51 <FlyingDragon> No, he hasn't died yet.

May 03 18:46:03 <FlyingDragon> I met him in 1978,

May 03 18:46:08 <mark> sorry -- you're

May 03 18:46:18 <rimworlder> lens - no, but neither did anyone who pissed on a transformer out the hotel; window either - it was an 'urban myth' going around cons at about the time the story was written

May 03 18:46:18 <Lensman> LOL! That's great. So did you?

May 03 18:46:22 <mark> lensman -> but did he come close?

May 03 18:47:06 <Lensman> I never heard about the p'ing on a transformer thing.

May 03 18:47:27 <FlyingDragon> SOMEONE will buy the brussle sprout. I recommend a light olive oil rather than a heavy one, more optical.

May 03 18:47:29 <rimworlder> I think it played into the origins of carpentiers death

May 03 18:47:46 <rimworlder> FD - true. years ago I almost sold the idea to Spencer's Gifts

May 03 18:48:00 <rimworlder> that, along with a 'dehydrated water kit' for camping

May 03 18:48:09 <FlyingDragon> Call it a miscarriage instead.

May 03 18:48:14 <rimworlder> there ya go

May 03 18:48:17 <FlyingDragon> Just add water?

May 03 18:48:19 <FlyingDragon> LOL

May 03 18:48:20 <rimworlder> yep

May 03 18:48:35 <rimworlder> bunch of different sized ziploc baggies in packaging

May 03 18:48:47 <FlyingDragon> Peter once made me a lovely gag gift. A non-piercing belly button ring kit.

May 03 18:48:57 <rimworlder> ok...?

May 03 18:49:01 <mark> you could put them in those capsules that you put in the bath, and they inflate to be animals and stuff

May 03 18:49:01 <Lensman> Mark:

May 03 18:49:38 <FlyingDragon> Put the baggies in the capsules that inflate????

May 03 18:49:48 <Lensman> LOL, yah dehydrated water-- "Just add water". Dunno where I first heard *that* one.

May 03 18:49:52 <rimworlder> I was afraid too many survivalists would buy the kit and then be really up the creek when they needed water

May 03 18:49:59 <FlyingDragon> Rim: you use tape to attache the belly button ring.

May 03 18:50:06 <rimworlder> ahhhh

May 03 18:50:17 <mark> heh. i like it

May 03 18:50:25 <Dan> Peter is a brilliant fellow!

May 03 18:50:27 <FlyingDragon> Rim, you CLEARLY state, THIS IS A GAG GIFT in a red warning box.

May 03 18:50:27 <Lensman> FD: LOL

May 03 18:50:38 <rimworlder> might be good in a 'convention survival kit' for fans

May 03 18:50:46 <FlyingDragon> Yes, Peter is smart. I think I'll keep him.

May 03 18:50:52 <rimworlder> FD - I know - but a lot of people are REALLY idiots

May 03 18:50:54 <Lensman> I wish I could meet Peter. From what I've heard, he sounds like quite a guy.

May 03 18:51:19 <FlyingDragon> Peter says "Where and when?"

May 03 18:51:47 <rimworlder> FD's question makes me ask - has this group ever arranged to get together at a particular con?

May 03 18:52:04 <Lensman> Well, ConQuesT is in Kansas City this Memorial Day... Carol came with Larry when he was GOH here. So why didn't YOU tag along, hmmmm?

May 03 18:53:29 <FlyingDragon> Peter doesn't like conventions. I could hardly talk Peter into going to a con when Larry was here in Houston.

May 03 18:53:56 <FlyingDragon> Rim, we are way too widespread to have a meet. THere have been a few together here and there.

May 03 18:54:12 <Lensman> Reminds me of the "Roadkill Helper" gag gift. A small "mac & cheese" sized cardboard box, with a token few pieces of macaroni in it. Unfortunately the FDA made them quit selling this gag gift on the Internet, as the company didn't have the health certificate to sell food. Idiotic...

May 03 18:54:18 <rimworlder> ok then, how about an internet con?

May 03 18:54:28 <Lensman> THIS IS AN INTERNET CON!!

May 03 18:54:33 <FlyingDragon> Isn't that what this is?????

May 03 18:54:47 <Dan> LOL!

May 03 18:54:49 <rimworlder> lens - I thought it was advertised as a chat - and where's the cheese doodles?

May 03 18:55:03 <Lensman> This is exactly the conversation we'd be having in a party room at a con. Any con.

May 03 18:55:16 <Dan> In the #ConSuite channel.

May 03 18:55:16 <FlyingDragon> Lens, if you don't open the box of Kraft MAc and cheese, and you just put a new paper on it, coudl you sell it???

May 03 18:55:18 <mark> i'm not drunk, so it can't be a con. i distinctly remember being horribly drunk the last time I was at a con

May 03 18:55:29 <mark> actually, I don't distinctly remember....

May 03 18:55:30 <rimworlder> ok - clearly I have misread something. I'll just go drink some water from my dehydrated water kit and shut up

May 03 18:55:33 <mark> I kind of remember...

May 03 18:55:37 <FlyingDragon> Are you sure you weren't in a black out, Mark????

May 03 18:55:56 <mark> heh. I remember coming too with my key in the door of my room

May 03 18:56:10 <mark> and my idiot friend was siging Roxanne.

May 03 18:56:26 <mark> and I thought, If I could get up, i'd throw him over the balcony

May 03 18:56:35 <rimworlder> just checked, there's no beer in the bathtub

May 03 18:56:41 <mark> ah, the good old days

May 03 18:57:03 <FlyingDragon> Yeah, just about the time I sobered up, cons stopped being drunken escapades.

May 03 18:57:03 * senax (~frank@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 18:57:11 <FlyingDragon> WB, senax.

May 03 18:57:13 <rimworlder> wb senax

May 03 18:57:13 <Lensman> FD: You are implying there's something logical about way a bureacracy applies rules. This is demonstrably incorrect.

May 03 18:57:14 <Dan> WB, Senax.

May 03 18:57:20 <senax> Hi again

May 03 18:57:37 <senax> thought I'd have to be gone a while, but it turned out to be minor

May 03 18:57:47 <FlyingDragon> Well, You can sell instructions with no actual food included.

May 03 18:57:56 <Lensman> Hi Senax

May 03 18:58:09 <FlyingDragon> Senax, that is what changing yoru nick to <yourname>AFK is for.

May 03 18:58:11 <rimworlder> you could put plastic macaroni in there...ooops, no, choking hazard

May 03 18:58:29 <FlyingDragon> But if you state on the box it is not for cildren under three, that is ok.

May 03 18:58:32 <Lensman> Yah, I suppose they could just sell the empty box. It would serve just as well as a gag gift.

May 03 18:58:42 <senax> I know Carol, but I'm on a laptop and had to put it to sleep...can't maintain a connection.

May 03 18:58:43 <FlyingDragon> YOu don't ever have to open it.

May 03 18:58:51 <rimworlder> you need a spatula with that kit

May 03 18:58:55 <FlyingDragon> Ok, s.

May 03 18:59:04 <senax> I should log in on one of my desktop machines

May 03 18:59:13 <Lensman> Spatula, LOL!

May 03 18:59:18 <FlyingDragon> To lift the food off the road? a giant plastic baggie too.

May 03 18:59:41 <rimworlder> yes - that and hotdog tongs

May 03 18:59:48 <Dan> Now I know I'm nuts. I just tried to think of a way to use "Bride Of Spatula" in some sort of pun...

May 03 19:00:18 <Lensman> "Spatula City". Aside from some SNL ads, my favorite faux commercial!

May 03 19:00:22 <Lensman>

May 03 19:00:37 <rimworlder> lol - my favorite from SNL was 'bag-o-glass'

May 03 19:01:01 <Dan> Little Johnny Human Torch!

May 03 19:01:02 * senax is now known as was_senax

May 03 19:01:03 <rimworlder> you up charge for the colored version

May 03 19:01:07 * sena1 (~senax@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 19:01:13 <mark> My favorite had the line "if congress cancels the oil depreciation allowance, I'm as good as dead."

May 03 19:01:17 <Lensman> "Quarry, the only cereal that's mined!" Unfortunately NOT available on the "Best of SNL Commercials" DVD :(

May 03 19:01:29 <rimworlder> colon blow was pretty good too

May 03 19:01:31 <mark> "Standard Oil -- do what we say, and nobody gets hurt"

May 03 19:01:35 <rimworlder> lol

May 03 19:02:03 <was_senax> grrr...having trouble with the chat program on the other computer...

May 03 19:02:17 <Lensman> Colon blow was great. "Bass-O-Matic" was better.

May 03 19:02:28 <rimworlder> senax - as long as you stay at the laptop - no one gets hurt

May 03 19:03:07 <Lensman> Actually we *could* have shown "Bass-O-Matic" last year at our club's film fest... but since we make money off selling consessions, we decided that would depress our business...

May 03 19:03:08 <rimworlder> ahhh, those were the days - original cast of SNL on tv in the consuite

May 03 19:03:41 <rimworlder> every party in the hotel got real quiet except for the laughter

May 03 19:03:59 <FlyingDragon> I never watched TV at a con!!!!

May 03 19:04:10 <FlyingDragon> FIlms, videos, but not TV!

May 03 19:04:14 <Lensman> Yah, original cast. In my opinion, none of the later crew holds a candle to the originals.

May 03 19:04:39 <rimworlder> FD - the gofers used to run around and remind everyone that it was coming on - and then there was a huge scramble to see who could get into who's room to watch with their favorite peoples

May 03 19:04:55 <was_senax> Every few years they get a few funny ones...then they lave for movie careers and the cycle starts over

May 03 19:05:03 <rimworlder> lens - murphy livened it up for a bit

May 03 19:05:04 <was_senax> er, leave

May 03 19:05:36 <Lensman> I remember hearing of one creative use of a TV in a party room. It was a faux WorldCon bid for Antarctica. The TV had a sign reading "LIVE FEED" and was turned to one of the "snow" channels... :D

May 03 19:05:39 * sena1 has quit (Quit: Download Gaim:

May 03 19:05:40 <rimworlder> gotta walk the dog brb

May 03 19:05:50 <rimworlder> lens - LOL

May 03 19:06:14 <was_senax> Gaim (now pidgin) isn't very good as an IRC client

May 03 19:06:41 * senax (~senax@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 19:06:50 <FlyingDragon> Lens, that is real funny. I do remember watching TV once at a party, not the con suite, but we were watching porn!

May 03 19:06:59 <senax> Well, that time it worked...

May 03 19:07:07 <Lensman> Senax: Have you tried Trillian as an IRC client?

May 03 19:07:22 <was_senax> Bye, Frank!

May 03 19:07:24 <senax> Bye Frank!

May 03 19:07:27 <Lensman> Thanks. :)

May 03 19:07:28 * was_senax (~frank@24.252.63.XXX) has left #knownspace

May 03 19:07:40 <FlyingDragon> Rim, I NEVER watched SNL at a con. Never.

May 03 19:08:53 <Dan> My worst fear about the panel I'll be on at the con in July is that Mike Williamson will be too busy to be on it, but that John Ringo will remember that I beat him to the punchline of a joke last year.

May 03 19:08:54 <senax> Don't think I've tried Trillian, Lens. Isn't it Windows-only?

May 03 19:09:31 <Lensman> I don't know. I know Carol uses it, maybe she can answer.

May 03 19:09:34 <senax> Dan, Mike is an old friend of mine (from before he started writing). Which con is this?

May 03 19:10:38 <Dan> LibertyCon, in Chattanooga. The fellow organizing the panel wants to get some of the pros in there with me. The panel is on internet & small press publishing.

May 03 19:10:54 <FlyingDragon> I use windows, and trillian works. My husband uses Linux, and he doesn't chat.

May 03 19:11:24 <Dan> I try and take time to talk with Mike for a few minutes at every LibertyCon. I think he's a great guy.

May 03 19:11:34 <Lensman> Yes, it does look like Trillian needs Windoz, sorry. But I don't think mIRC does!

May 03 19:13:41 <senax> I use Linux for my desktop; I'll have to look at some other IRC clients. I've tried a few. Normally, I use Colloquy on my iBook, but that's Mac only.

May 03 19:15:17 <mark> the new version of trillian will run on mac os x

May 03 19:15:30 <FlyingDragon> TIred. Need to go take a lie down. Bye

May 03 19:15:42 * FlyingDragon is now known as RestingDragon

May 03 19:16:00 <fRED> point of order: Marty Feldman didn't die of lung cancer. He ate bad shellfish.

May 03 19:16:07 <rimworlder> dan - what's your press?

May 03 19:16:24 <senax> So I hear. I'm happy with Colloquy, though. And since Apple has been on x86 for a while, new apps don't always come out in G4/G5 versions.

May 03 19:16:25 <Lensman> Hmmm, no, looks like mIRC needs Windoz too, sorry.

May 03 19:16:45 <rimworlder> fd - bye

May 03 19:16:51 <Dan> I run Aphelion Webzine. An amateur writing zine that's been online since 1997.

May 03 19:17:08 <rimworlder> Dan - cool; I'm still getting to know folks around here

May 03 19:17:52 <rimworlder> getting back into fandom after a 25+ year hiatus

May 03 19:17:59 <Dan> Oh, I don't talk about Aphelion here unless someone asks. I'm here as a fan of Larry's.

May 03 19:18:16 <rimworlder> I understand - but - its networking too, donchyaknow

May 03 19:18:35 <senax> Dan--Mike is a good guy. I haven't read much of his SF, though. It tends to be military stuff, which isn't my cup of tea as far as reading goes.

May 03 19:19:08 <rimworlder> can't get to your page right now - off of a google link

May 03 19:19:50 <Lensman> According to Wikipedia, Feldman died of a heart attack. They were filming in Mexico City, the altitude was giving Feldman breathing problems-- because he was a heavy smoker and his lungs didn't work very well-- and yes, they do mention possible contributory cause as food poisoning from bad shellfish.

May 03 19:20:18 <UncleNasty> back

May 03 19:20:29 <rimworlder> Dan - I run a news site

May 03 19:20:32 <fRED> yeah, 2 of the people on the film got the bad shellfish. the other survived

May 03 19:20:32 <Dan> As I recall, I've read two of mike's books now. Military SF isn't my thing either, but his books were hard to put down until I finished them.

May 03 19:21:18 <UncleNasty> senax: bitchX is good for irc on linux

May 03 19:21:19 <Lensman> So, please tell us about Aphelion! I've forgotten most of what I know. Is that an online SF magazine, or a print version, or both?

May 03 19:21:40 <rimworlder> and please put a link here cause I'm not getting to the page

May 03 19:22:15 <Dan>

May 03 19:22:39 <rimworlder> that's what I'm typing in

May 03 19:22:48 <Lensman> I missed a comment somewhere. Mike who?

May 03 19:22:52 <senax> The only one I read was his first...forget the title. It's odd that I don't get into military SF, as I spent 20 years in the military and still work as a military contractor. Once in a while, a really good story will appeal to me...I'm that way with fantasy as well.

May 03 19:23:13 <fRED> Mike Williamson

May 03 19:23:46 <fRED> <Dan> My worst fear about the panel I'll be on at the con in July is that Mike Williamson will be too busy to be on it

May 03 19:24:46 <Dan> It's more like a writer's workshop than anything else. Amateur SF&F writers send us stories, my editors give them critiques and pointers, we publish 10 to 12 short stories and seveal poems every month online. Along with novella-length stories when someone sends us one.

May 03 19:25:06 <rimworlder> Dan - I'm getting to every other page I'm typing in, but Aphelion is coming up as 'can't be displayed' - its either timing out for some reason or down. can someone else here check?

May 03 19:25:29 <Lensman> I don't really see the attraction in things like Hammers Slammers and Bolo. When I looked around for a *good* military SF series, I found Honor Harrington. That was absolutely top-notch for the first few volumes, but unfortunately each volume has gotten larger and more weighted down with politics. I guess I should look around for another. I guess I'm pretty picky-- don't care for Pournelle's, nor the Dorsai.

May 03 19:26:02 <rimworlder> I liked pournelles co-dominium and jannisaries stuff

May 03 19:26:12 <rimworlder> weber's harrington - not at all.

May 03 19:26:16 <Dan> I can't get to Aphelion right now either! LOL! Must be some server trouble in Atlanta.

May 03 19:26:27 <rimworlder> bolo - yes, hammers slammers, no

May 03 19:26:44 <UncleNasty> rimworlder: i recently doscovered neal asher's polity series - very good

May 03 19:27:10 <rimworlder> Dan - I wanted to check it out as I'm kind of in the same biz and was hoping to be able to ask some questions...

May 03 19:27:22 <rimworlder> uncle - I've been eyeing those for a bit...

May 03 19:27:36 <rimworlder> do you support it with ads?

May 03 19:27:53 <Dan> The Bolo stories were much better when Keith Laumer was the only one writing them, but then he created them and I'd read them since I was a teenager, so I might be a tad opinionated.

May 03 19:28:00 <UncleNasty> rimworlder: i picked one up at an airport because i'd forgotten my book - was very pleasantly impressed/surprised

May 03 19:28:05 <Lensman> Firefox gave me a timeout trying to access Aphelion. So did MicroSatan IE.

May 03 19:28:33 <rimworlder> uncle - that's great when it happens, huh? I will take your suggestion under advisement

May 03 19:28:57 <UncleNasty> rimworlder: i will add the caveat that you have to be OK with cyberpunk - lol

May 03 19:29:05 <Dan> I'm getting time outs too. It's gotta be a technical problem, 'cause I've paid te bill for the month already. LOL!

May 03 19:29:22 <rimworlder> Dan - you don't deal with the server yourself?

May 03 19:29:41 <rimworlder> uncle - I'm ok with the bit I've read - might be a good way to delve into more

May 03 19:29:55 <Lensman> It irked me that the Bolo stories were never about how the series was described. Like the Man-Kzin Wars. You never actually get a war story.

May 03 19:30:17 <rimworlder> lens - when I said Bolo, I meant the original stories by Laumer; haven't read any of the new stuff

May 03 19:30:20 <Lensman> Well, I mean you never actually get a war story from *Larry*.

May 03 19:30:26 <UncleNasty> i started them out of sequence, too - i started with "brass man". stands on its own quite well and deals with some cool ideas for biotech

May 03 19:30:46 <Lensman> Re Bolo: That's what I meant, too.

May 03 19:30:51 <Dan> I FTP stuff to the server when I want to put up something new, but my Web-Guru is the Sysadmin at my ISP and he usually takes care of any problems.

May 03 19:31:02 <rimworlder> lens - I think one of larry's points is that 'war' with his kind of tech is pretty much over before it begins

May 03 19:31:48 <senax> Larry's also said he doesn't think he's good at writing those types of stories.

May 03 19:31:57 <rimworlder> dan - ah ok. my site is a niche news site (24 hours a day) and I'm currently revamping the ad spaces and fees. I've got a 'complexity issue'

May 03 19:32:51 <rimworlder> and was hoping to get some insight or different points of view from others

May 03 19:33:10 <Lensman> Granted that the "hyperdrive armadas" versus the Kzinti ships in deep space wouldn't have been a fight... just a massacre (sp?). But as has been pointed out, hyperdrive helps not at all in taking a planet. The marines *did* have to liberate Wunderland.

May 03 19:33:44 <rimworlder> lens - 'taking a planet' is an interesting subject to study when you consider what really might have to go into it

May 03 19:33:56 <Dan> I have several people who work with me on the zine.

May 03 19:34:29 <Lensman> Well, maybe someone can give me an insight on what may be a "complexity issue" on this test page:

May 03 19:34:33 <Lensman>

May 03 19:35:09 <senax> One hyperdrive ship could shuttle back and forth and land several shiploads of marines before the non-FTL side could do much. FTL ships don't need to carry as much in the way of expendables, either.

May 03 19:35:09 <rimworlder> dan - ok. my problem is our ad spaces are highly targeted, but the customers don't like all the 'options' - too much to get through on the rate card. but, if I simplify it. I under or over price myself for a significant segment of the buyers

May 03 19:35:38 <Lensman> Some of the thin vertical lines separating table cells disappear, and if I re-load the page sometimes they re-appear. I've run it past an online HTML validator, and I don't see any straightforward problems like mismatched tags.

May 03 19:36:00 <mark> looks ok here

May 03 19:36:06 <rimworlder> lens, somewhere in your code you've got tags that are stepping on each other

May 03 19:36:56 <Dan> Oh! Well, I won't allow ads on Aphelion. I just pay for the webspace out of my pocket.

May 03 19:37:03 <rimworlder> senax - even assuming FTL for re-supply: assume the defenders are fairly evenly matched with the attackers. you're talking a whole campaign to eliminate orbital elements, surveillance elements, etc

May 03 19:37:22 <Lensman> Rim: *Sigh* Okay, I guess I'll have to print out the source code and go thru and mark off all the tags. That's the trouble with such an overly complex table structure. :(

May 03 19:37:40 <rimworlder> dan - we're making pretty decent coin

May 03 19:38:05 <rimworlder> lens - or - just get rid of the table and do it over

May 03 19:38:33 <rimworlder> lens - are you using something that let's you look at code and the page together?

May 03 19:38:51 <rimworlder> dan - but its news, not fiction

May 03 19:38:55 <UncleNasty> Lensman: surely a style sheet would be easier for that layout?

May 03 19:38:55 <Lensman> It's certainly true that the FTL fleet could interdict the planet, prevent any reinforcements from landing. But if the planet is strongly held, your hyperdrive doesn't help against ground and orbital defenses, nor any enemy ships which are inside the star's mass limit.

May 03 19:39:47 <rimworlder> lens - and I'd hate to be the guy in charge of actually getting forces down to the planet; first - ground and ground-air defenses and second - guerrilla warfare; you've got a whole planet to hide in

May 03 19:39:58 <UncleNasty> brb again - fishing done - now feeding cable

May 03 19:40:26 <Lensman> UN: Everything I've read about CSS says there's an exception for everything with certain browsers. Maybe a style sheet would work better, tho. Do you have any suggestions on where to start? A good tutorial, maybe?

May 03 19:41:19 <Lensman> Rim: Yes, that's the point Larry made recently, saying that hyperdrive is mainly useful only for deep space combats.

May 03 19:41:24 <rimworlder> I did a game as a study of that subject and the only real tactic that enjoys regular success is - spend the time to reduce the CAP (Combat Orbital Patrol?) and then bomb the piss out of the planet

May 03 19:41:40 <mark>

May 03 19:41:53 <senax> It would make a big difference _how_ strongly held. The defenders, for the short term, get no reinforcements; they're stuck with what they have at the start of the battle. The FTL side can throw lots of troops at a relatively weakly-held planet, overwhelm it and leave a garrison in place, then start massing troops at the next planet. Being able to concentrate your forces is a big advantage when the other side can't do it too.

May 03 19:42:06 <Dan> That's the thing: Aphelion is about helping writers learn, and eventually to start selling their work. We've had about 50 +/- writers start selling their stuff after hanging around Aphelion for a while.

May 03 19:42:52 <Lensman> Yah, I've looked at-- and use-- that CSS tutorial site. It's good for looking up specific things, not so good for the gestalt or overall picture.

May 03 19:42:58 <rimworlder> senax - the DEFENDERS are the ones with interior lines. A smart defender will wait until only the garrison forces are left...

May 03 19:43:23 <mark> I've been playing with css for years, and I'm not sure I have the overall picture :-)

May 03 19:43:40 <mark> didn't I work out a css based layout for you once?

May 03 19:43:44 <rimworlder> mark - its like quantum physics - if you think you undertstand it...

May 03 19:43:45 <senax> rim: I'm not sure I understand your last statement.

May 03 19:44:18 <mark> rim -> I know I don't... Making work in all browsers was a real pain.

May 03 19:44:34 <Lensman> The advantage of the hyperdrive "armada" is that it lets you concentrate *all* your forces on just *one* enemy planet. So if you can build up to overwhelming force, then you can take out every enemy planet, one by one. But until you've got a force which is so powerful it will quickly eliminate all defenses, you're gonna take heavy losses.

May 03 19:44:40 <rimworlder> senax - think stalingrad. the defenders were cut off, but had shorter lines of communication; smaller forces, but they could manuever more quickly

May 03 19:45:32 <Lensman> Mark: You found a utility for automated footnotes, if that's what you mean. Otherwise, if so then I've forgotten.

May 03 19:45:58 <rimworlder> and all the defenders would need would be the possibility of one force off planet to threaten the 'flank'

May 03 19:46:13 <Lensman> Rim: Ooh! What a wonderful analogy, bravo!

May 03 19:46:26 <rimworlder> I've read a lot of military history

May 03 19:46:59 <senax> Not sure Stalingrad is a good analogy for what I was describing...fighting for the Pacific island by island is more like it. If the Allied troop ships could warp from San Francisco to, say, Guam, it would be a huge imbalance.

May 03 19:47:01 <mark> i don't remember anymore. I remember the css based autofootnote thingie

May 03 19:47:12 <rimworlder> this kind of thing is what gave rise to napoleon's dictum that the defenses is as 3 to 1 to the offense

May 03 19:47:46 <Lensman> Well it's not a perfect analogy; but then, what is?

May 03 19:47:56 <senax> Defending your homeland is a far cry from defending an isolated far-off foothold.

May 03 19:47:56 <rimworlder> senax - the differene is that the pacific islands held by japan ALSO had exterior lines of communication; there were no resupply sources ON the islands

May 03 19:49:07 <rimworlder> forces landing on a planet would have to initially land in multiple (hundreds, if not thousands) of locations at once; establish solid bridgeheads that could be defended and then try to link up

May 03 19:49:39 <rimworlder> at stalingrad, the tank factory was literally pushing tanks out the door right into the front lines

May 03 19:49:55 <Lensman> Travel time by rail from Germany to near Stalingrad would actually be shorter than travel from Sol to Wunderland via hyperdrive, I think. The railroad would be a bottleneck, but then so would the number of available hyperdrive ships. Obviously the Humans wouldn't want to "waste" hyperdrives on non-combat ships.

May 03 19:50:34 <rimworlder> lens - and also remember that that's just resupply for the germans; their armies were already in place

May 03 19:51:20 <rimworlder> and the lack of a road net in russia had a huge influence; kind of like if the HD ships could be randomly slowed down or stopped or turned back

May 03 19:51:32 <Lensman> Yes, that story of the tank factory is wonderful! I wish someone would do a *good* movie about the Battle of Stalingrad; the one about the snipers was okay but too focused on just part of the battle.

May 03 19:52:22 <rimworlder> the russians were VERY good at absorbing a hit, sucking in follow on forces and then closing the trap. takes a LOT of patience and fortitude

May 03 19:53:03 <Lensman> True, off-railroad travel around the area was *very* different. The muddy roads and the fact that Russia had about 4 times as many tanks as Hitler thought were two major reasons the Germans lost.

May 03 19:53:24 <Lensman> er... very *difficult*, not very "different".

May 03 19:53:57 <rimworlder> and starting the offensive too late, and the fact that russian rail lines were a different gage than german ones....

May 03 19:54:05 <rimworlder> lots of disparate elements contributed

May 03 19:54:19 <Lensman> So that's not a good analogy for humans interdicting then finally attacking Wunderland. No barrier to movement of ships, until you get very close to the planet.

May 03 19:55:08 <rimworlder> lens - I suppose as far as the movement 'to' battle is concerned you're right, but in terms of actually successfully completing the mission, I still think its a good model for the inherent problems

May 03 19:55:41 <Lensman> I forgot about the gage difference. But there were lots of factors, yes. Like Hitler insisting on splitting his forces, and attacking the oil fields and a major city (Leningrad? Stalingrad?) simultaneously. If he had picked just on, the Germans would have won.

May 03 19:56:20 <rimworlder> now, suppose that instead of HD, you've got some kind of point-to-point FTL drive, and a planet that's going to get attacked actually has decades of warning...

May 03 19:57:23 <rimworlder> lens - actually, he kind of had to do both to have any chance of success, because otherwise a major soviet army would NOT have been tied down and could have attacked from a flank; hammer and anvil style

May 03 19:57:36 <rimworlder> he just should NOT have gone after the USSR until Britian was beaten

May 03 19:58:24 <rimworlder> army group, not army

May 03 19:59:16 <rimworlder> hell, I'd have been happy with half of poland...

May 03 19:59:19 <Lensman> I just don't think the war lasted as long as various non-canonical MKW stories suggest. After all, they had four wars within less than 1 1/2 centuries. How long could the first war have lasted? I suspect the hyperdrive let the humans cut the Kzinti supply lines with ease, because the HD ships moved faster than the warnings about HD attacks.

May 03 20:00:18 <rimworlder> guys - gotta get back to my complexity issue...have fun. Dan - I''ll check out aphelion when its up, lol

May 03 20:00:25 * rimworlder has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

May 03 20:02:39 <Dan> OK, sorry amout that.

May 03 20:03:30 <Lensman> The invasion of Iwo Jima or Okinawa may be a fair analogy for liberation of Wunderland... or maybe not. The Japanese by that time had little ability to oppose the American forces on sea or air. OTOH the Kzinti might very well have had heavy warships in orbit around Wunderland, or in the Serpent Stream, or elsewhere in the system.

May 03 20:05:06 <Lensman> It would be, maybe, as tho the Japanese had had a significant air force based on the island itself, but no aircraft carriers.

May 03 20:09:02 <senax> Been distracted with phone calls from work.

May 03 20:09:09 <Dan> OK time to go watch Doctor Who. See everyone later!

May 03 20:09:37 <Lensman> Bye Dan.

May 03 20:09:45 <senax> bye Dan

May 03 20:09:50 <Lensman> Is it just you and mea, Senax? Anybody else here?

May 03 20:09:54 * Dan has quit ()

May 03 20:10:19 <senax> I think we're about it...and I'm going to have to take off, too.

May 03 20:10:26 <senax> work stuff...

May 03 20:10:49 <Lensman> Goodnite... or good day, depending on your time zone.

May 03 20:11:09 <senax> Early evening here. See ya.

May 03 20:11:21 * senax (~senax@24.252.63.XXX) has left #knownspace

May 03 21:43:36 * growler (~growler@ has joined #knownspace

May 03 21:49:10 <growler> ping?

May 03 21:54:15 <RestingDragon> pong!

May 03 22:04:09 * mark_ (~mark@ has joined #knownspace

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May 03 22:06:08 <growler> guess i'm just too late

May 03 22:07:24 <RestingDragon> Most people ahve come and gone at least twice.

May 03 22:07:51 <growler> and i don't have any footy to run off too

May 03 22:08:48 <RestingDragon> "footy to run off to?"

May 03 22:14:49 <growler> I play football on Sundays in Winter, except there's no game today.

May 03 22:16:03 <RestingDragon> Ah. My husband plays hockey on Sundays.

May 03 22:16:13 <RestingDragon> Is it SUnday there already????

May 03 22:18:45 <growler> 2:18pm as I type. Kick off is usually 2:00pm

May 03 22:19:49 <RestingDragon> Ah. Well I'm sorry to have to leave you to a lonely Sunday Afternoon, but it is time to lul my childrent o sleep on a rather late Saturday night.

May 03 22:21:44 <RestingDragon> bye

May 03 22:21:55 <growler> time to go get a haircut for me then i guess

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May 03 23:22:34 * You are now known as SeanS

May 03 23:26:17 * SeanS finally got home and has turned on 2001: A Space Odysee

May 03 23:27:02 <SeanS> however the final word is spelled... looks wrong to me