Chat Log: March 1st 2008

Mar 01 13:17:27 * Lensman (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

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Mar 01 14:31:32 <NickE> Evenin'

Mar 01 14:31:55 <Lensman> Gronk

Mar 01 14:32:11 <NickE> heh

Mar 01 14:33:05 <Lensman> "The wall was not confused."

Mar 01 14:33:53 <NickE> I'm racking my somewhat addled not tell, me. i

Mar 01 14:33:56 <NickE> I'll get it

Mar 01 14:34:18 <NickE> Heinlein?

Mar 01 14:35:13 <Lensman> Nope. Closer to home...

Mar 01 14:35:28 <NickE> oh ghod

Mar 01 14:36:17 <NickE> Larry of course, but oh the shame. It's there but not coming IYSWIM

Mar 01 14:36:18 <Lensman> "Present." (That's from a different story, of course.)

Mar 01 14:36:54 <Lensman> Not parsing IYSWIM. Let me know if you want another hint.

Mar 01 14:37:19 <NickE> "if you see what I mean"

Mar 01 14:37:25 <NickE> umm..yeah

Mar 01 14:37:30 <Lensman> -k-

Mar 01 14:37:53 <NickE> And I did a SF triv quiz today

Mar 01 14:37:58 <NickE> didnt win :-)

Mar 01 14:38:34 <Lensman> One character says "Gronk". The next sentence in the story is "The wall was not confused." It's from a Beowulf Shaeffer story.

Mar 01 14:38:45 <NickE> I thought as much

Mar 01 14:38:52 <Lensman> Oh? Where was this quiz?

Mar 01 14:38:57 <NickE> It was Elephant of course Flatlander

Mar 01 14:39:22 <Lensman> Bingo! Elepant was speaking to "the wall" on the Outsider ship.

Mar 01 14:39:56 <NickE> At a shindig in Oxford. Waaaay too obscure questions, we quit and started with Firefly qs (seeing as how it was a shindig :-)

Mar 01 14:40:21 <Lensman> Oxford, as in Southern England?

Mar 01 14:40:53 <NickE> aye

Mar 01 14:41:19 <NickE> I live about 25 miles north, but work in Oxford

Mar 01 14:41:21 <Lensman> That explains your "Evenin'" greeting.

Mar 01 14:41:26 <NickE> yup

Mar 01 14:41:46 <NickE> quarter to 8 my time

Mar 01 14:43:30 <Lensman> Well I'll add "NickE" to my Niven Chat Room Scorecard. Don't have your full name, tho.

Mar 01 14:43:51 <NickE> Nick Edwards

Mar 01 14:43:57 <Lensman> Thank you.

Mar 01 14:44:12 <NickE> you emailed me about DNA sequencing

Mar 01 14:45:07 <Lensman> My memory for names is awful, sorry Nick.

Mar 01 14:45:18 <NickE> :-)

Mar 01 14:45:38 <Lensman> So you're just an occasional contributor to the Niven list, is that right?

Mar 01 14:46:18 <Lensman> I've noticed there is exactly one list member who seems to have a better grasp of biology than me, and that person doesn't post often. Maybe that's you?

Mar 01 14:46:31 <NickE> these days

Mar 01 14:46:41 <Lensman> BRB

Mar 01 14:47:40 <NickE> k

Mar 01 14:51:31 <Lensman> Back

Mar 01 14:51:53 <Lensman> So how did you do with the "Firefly" trivia?

Mar 01 14:52:46 <NickE> Oh embarassingly badly. Girl called Josie was a veritable encyclopedia of FF stuff

Mar 01 14:53:28 <NickE> Got a few good uns, but for someone who does a podcast on the subject....not so hot :-)

Mar 01 14:53:49 <Lensman> You could likely beat me. I've only seen a very few episodes.

Mar 01 14:54:05 <NickE> Oh it's very good

Mar 01 14:54:18 <NickE> (biased, me? :-)

Mar 01 14:55:14 <Lensman> So what's wrong with being biased towards good stuff? We're "biased" in thinking Niven is a Great writer, aren't we?

Mar 01 14:55:30 <NickE> is true

Mar 01 14:56:44 <NickE> Browncoats are a very active and social fandom

Mar 01 14:59:25 <Lensman> Yes, I've noticed. My Laser Rangers group kept raving about the show. I hadn't followed it from the beginning. I tried no less than 3 times to watch it, but found the constant feuding, tension between crew members and bickering to be very off-putting. But I really loved the "Serenity" movie, and recently I managed to catch the first two episoded. Now that I have a better understanding of the characters and the backgroud, I think I can enjoy the sh

Mar 01 15:00:09 <Lensman> There were only, what, 15 episodes?

Mar 01 15:00:11 <NickE> ah, yeah watching it from the start much better

Mar 01 15:00:14 <NickE> 14

Mar 01 15:00:48 <Lensman> The fact that such a short-run show has, as you say, a very active (and loyal) fan base is certainly an indication it's a very high quality show.

Mar 01 15:01:12 <NickE> The potential was huge and it is the most consistently high quality SF show I've come across

Mar 01 15:01:32 <NickE> YEp, still sells well on Amazon

Mar 01 15:02:10 <Lensman> I still think the new Battlestar Galactica is even better, but certainly Firefly was very well written with very interesting, well-developed characters.

Mar 01 15:02:27 <SeanS> Firefly= great show. Fox really screwed the pooch with that one

Mar 01 15:02:36 <NickE> I am getting into S2 of BSG now, still plenty to go

Mar 01 15:02:46 <NickE> Hi Sean. Yeah, no kidding

Mar 01 15:03:28 <SeanS> i have company coming over so i will be in and out

Mar 01 15:03:31 <Lensman> Hi, Sean! Would you please send me a copy of last month's chat log? I want to check my facts re Larry's comments on "The Niven Project".

Mar 01 15:03:48 <NickE> K

Mar 01 15:04:00 <SeanS> sure.. I hve been kind of slow on gettting the chat logs out.

Mar 01 15:04:14 <NickE> Watching edp 1 of Red Dwarf ATM

Mar 01 15:04:26 <Lensman> Well, we'll dock you half your pay for that. :)

Mar 01 15:04:40 <SeanS> thats cool

Mar 01 15:05:23 <Lensman> "Red Dwarf" is very enjoyable, after the 1st season. Wish I could see more of that. I suppose I should borrow a friend's DVD sets.

Mar 01 15:06:32 <NickE> Even S1 is pretty good

Mar 01 15:06:48 <NickE> bit odd in places, but still v funny

Mar 01 15:07:14 <SeanS> Nick, have you heard if they are doing another season of the IT Crownd?

Mar 01 15:07:49 <NickE> Oh cool. It's a bit rough, but can be very funny

Mar 01 15:08:24 <SeanS> I was asking you;)

Mar 01 15:08:27 <NickE> so a 3rd season. S2 was not as good, but still pretty funny

Mar 01 15:08:35 <NickE>

Mar 01 15:08:42 <NickE> duh

Mar 01 15:08:52 <SeanS> my gf loved it

Mar 01 15:11:55 <Lensman> My local SF club does a film fest for the public every year, and I'm on the committee. I think it was a couple of years ago we ran a "Red Dwarf" episode. Don't remember the name, but the gang visits an alternate universe where time runs backwards. One of the funniest things I have seen in my entire life!

Mar 01 15:14:01 <NickE> Oh ghod yes. The ep was a S4 one called "Backwards" Best bit was right at the end when the Cat goes for a dump

Mar 01 15:14:11 <NickE> Ewww!

Mar 01 15:14:36 <Lensman> LOL! Yes, I generally don't find bodily-function humor funny... but that was hysterical!

Mar 01 15:14:56 <Lensman> The expression on Cat's face... priceless.

Mar 01 15:15:08 <NickE> yep. They kept it to the one gag and it worked brilliantly

Mar 01 15:18:24 <Lensman> I forget, Nick, did they use subtitles in that episode? (To reverse the lines which were spoken backwards.)

**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Mar 1 15:19:23 2008

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 1 15:19:23 2008

Mar 01 15:20:01 <SeanS> log sent

Mar 01 15:20:12 <Lensman> Thank you, Sean!

Mar 01 15:20:22 <NickE> No, don't think they did mostly. There were a few times that they did for comedic effect at the beginning

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Mar 01 15:24:09 <NickE> wups

Mar 01 15:26:11 <Lensman> Anybody been following that "gravitational anomaly" story?

Mar 01 15:29:47 <NickE> ?

Mar 01 15:29:51 <NickE> nope

Mar 01 15:32:20 <Lensman>

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Mar 01 15:33:56 <NickE> ahsmeg

Mar 01 15:34:06 <NickE> what was that url?

Mar 01 15:34:25 <Lensman> Could turn out to be nothing important. But I'm reminded of the saying: "Great discoveries in science aren't heralded by a someone saying 'Eureka!' They're heralded by someone saying 'That's odd...' "

Mar 01 15:34:40 <Lensman>

Mar 01 15:34:47 <NickE> oh now who said that

Mar 01 15:35:16 <Lensman> Wish I could remember. It's a great quote! Maybe Asimov?

Mar 01 15:35:53 <NickE> that would be my guess

Mar 01 15:36:31 <Lensman> Hey, I'm right!

Mar 01 15:37:00 <NickE> ah yes, the "Pioneer anomaly"

Mar 01 15:37:12 <Lensman> Isaac Asimov said that the most important phrase in science is not "eureka" but "that's odd...", because science is all about the discovery of the unexpected.

Mar 01 15:37:29 <NickE> yes. Often true

Mar 01 15:37:45 * jim_stiles (~jim_stiles@ has joined #knownspace

Mar 01 15:37:51 <Lensman> The above was a quote I found thru Google.

Mar 01 15:37:56 <Lensman> Welcome, Jim!

Mar 01 15:38:00 <NickE> hey Jim

Mar 01 15:38:06 <jim_stiles> hi

Mar 01 15:39:28 <jim_stiles> i thought that kzin ate their meat raw

Mar 01 15:39:58 <SeanS> yep

Mar 01 15:40:03 <NickE> but marinated, or terrified for flavour

Mar 01 15:40:59 <NickE> if you take the MKW as canon

Mar 01 15:41:10 <NickE> which it is in some cases

Mar 01 15:41:18 <NickE> (Larry's :-)

Mar 01 15:41:52 <jim_stiles> how did you get the smiley face :)

Mar 01 15:41:58 <jim_stiles> oh that way

Mar 01 15:43:11 <Lensman> Raw and heated. None of this marinated pansy nonsense! :)

Mar 01 15:44:23 <NickE> heh

Mar 01 15:45:05 <jim_stiles> I thought that the puppeteers also ate their forage uncooked

Mar 01 15:45:22 <jim_stiles> :(

Mar 01 15:45:38 <Lensman> I found it odd that in FOW the puppeteers seem to eat all their food raw. I'd think they'd enjoy a good vegetable soup!

Mar 01 15:46:20 <jim_stiles> i suspect that omnivores are the ones most likely to cook meals

Mar 01 15:46:35 <Lensman> Obviously, being ruminants, they need plenty of fiber and roughage in their diet, but still I'd think they'd enjoy eating something hot and spicy as much as we do.

Mar 01 15:48:01 <jim_stiles> :+

Mar 01 15:48:10 <jim_stiles> ;|

Mar 01 15:48:17 <jim_stiles> ;)

Mar 01 15:48:37 <Lensman> Well, why do we find cooked food to be better tasting? Or is it just the smell? Is it cultural conditioning? I find that doubtful. We have *evolved* to find certain things "smell bad", like spoilt food. There's obviously an evolutionary advantage to finding spoilt food repulsive. Is there an evolutionary advantage to preferring cooked food? Perhaps because cooking kills germs?

Mar 01 15:49:19 <Lensman> Stupid smiley tricks... :)

Mar 01 15:49:23 <NickE> and makes it easier to digest

Mar 01 15:49:30 <NickE> :-)

Mar 01 15:49:51 <Lensman> Cooked vegetables are easier to digest, yes. But doesn't cooking meat make it tougher?

Mar 01 15:50:04 <NickE> only over cooking

Mar 01 15:50:19 <jim_stiles> animals whose diet is more specialized than our own would have less of a need to kill germs and make food easier to digest

Mar 01 15:50:20 <NickE> and with slow cooking in fact, the longer the better

Mar 01 15:53:44 <jim_stiles> are we still early?

Mar 01 15:53:52 <Lensman> But seriously, just because Speaker/Chmeee seems to eat only raw meat, that doens't necessarily mean no Kzinti like their meat flavored or marinated.

Mar 01 15:54:23 <Lensman> No, we are not at all early. The room is very quiet today. "It was quiet. Too quiet..."

Mar 01 15:54:59 <jim_stiles> boom

Mar 01 15:55:05 <Lensman> I was hoping to get up a good discussion on "The Niven Project". I invited the artist here, but he didn't respond so I guess he's not coming.

Mar 01 15:55:30 <jim_stiles> what is "The Niven Project"?

Mar 01 15:56:06 <Lensman>

Mar 01 15:56:30 <Lensman> I guess you didn't see my announcement on the Niven discussion list.

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Mar 01 15:57:23 <Lensman> I was rather disappointed. Several paintings on which Larry collaborated, and a technical drawing of the /Liar/. But no discussion at all. :(

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Mar 01 15:59:03 <NickE> hi

Mar 01 15:59:26 * Sol is now known as SolBelter

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Mar 01 16:00:10 <SolBelter> Hi all! I'm Spike

Mar 01 16:00:16 <Lensman> Seems odd to put dish antennae on what appears to be, otherwise, a very highly streamlined ship. And having the "sonic fold" act as a heat shield when entering the atmosphere. Hmmm... I'm not sure that fits with canon very well.

Mar 01 16:00:45 <NickE> Hi Spike, welcome back

Mar 01 16:00:47 <Lensman> Welcome again, Spike! Nickname-of-the-month, eh? :)

Mar 01 16:00:57 <SolBelter> lol

Mar 01 16:01:29 <Lensman> Well, finally we get more than three fen here at once.

Mar 01 16:01:37 <NickE> heh

Mar 01 16:02:01 <SolBelter> it'll be interesting to hear Aldo's reasoning re Lensman's comment

Mar 01 16:02:37 <Lensman> Sol: Well, I invited Aldo here, but he didn't respond so I guess he's not coming.

Mar 01 16:02:42 <SolBelter> i just looked for a min earlier today at Aldo's drawings

Mar 01 16:03:16 <SolBelter> i loved the slowboat Planck

Mar 01 16:03:25 <Lensman> If we want to nitpick I'm sure we can find things that aren't canonical.

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Mar 01 16:03:40 <EML> Hi, all.

Mar 01 16:03:43 <Lensman> Yes, the /Planck/ Interstellar picture is wonderful!

Mar 01 16:03:48 <Lensman> Welcome, Ed.

Mar 01 16:04:07 <SolBelter> Lens, another KS story -

Mar 01 16:04:27 <EML> Well, I tried earlier today, and still no Larry. The rumors will continue.

Mar 01 16:04:31 <Lensman> But the picture of Plateau doesn't include the central mountain range, and I don't see the escarpments that should be there separating the various levels.

Mar 01 16:04:32 <NickE> Ah Aldo did The Michael

Mar 01 16:04:38 <NickE> Hi Ed

Mar 01 16:04:49 <SolBelter> Rick Sternbach got the cover assignment for Gift From Earth and the others in a reissue ed back when

Mar 01 16:05:03 <Lensman> Yah, I admit the /Michael/ is NOTHING like I envisioned it, but I suspect he's mostly correct on that.

Mar 01 16:05:12 <SolBelter> and he asked me for all the descriptions i could dig out from the book

Mar 01 16:05:35 <SolBelter> re the hospital, buildings, and the ship! :)

Mar 01 16:05:46 <SolBelter> very busy two go by :)

Mar 01 16:06:00 <EML> Alas, covers and contents are often strangers.

Mar 01 16:06:05 <SolBelter> and he took it from there for a great cover

Mar 01 16:06:05 <Lensman> Sternback got the "coral growth" buildings right, for sure!

Mar 01 16:06:19 <SolBelter> nod re coral look

Mar 01 16:06:36 <SolBelter> he loves underwater stuff, used to scuba

Mar 01 16:07:03 <Lensman> Ed: Yes, I've heard Michael Whelan and Darrel K. Sweet hold forth on the subject of actually READING the story they're supposed to be illustrating! Too many artists don't. >:-(

Mar 01 16:07:26 <EML> too bad so many scenes in TGFE were at the hospital. we coulda had a gunfight at the okay coral.

Mar 01 16:07:28 <SolBelter> EML, all so true re covers - i respect Whelan most for reversing somewhat, the trend

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Mar 01 16:07:55 <Lensman> Well Sternbach's "dolphin's hands" on the cover of WOT doesn't match the description, which IIRC is like a jet ski.

Mar 01 16:08:31 <Lensman> Sternbach has them as a separate robotic device which the dolphins aren't touching.

Mar 01 16:08:42 <EML> I'm quite pleased with the upcoming cover for JUGGLER. It's on amazon, if you haven't looked.

Mar 01 16:09:00 <SolBelter> Rick thought his were better - big dolphins fan :) i'm guessing

Mar 01 16:09:41 <SolBelter> sorry meant I'm guessing he thot better, he is a dolphins story writer and illustrator

Mar 01 16:09:49 <NickE> Ohh, no I havent seen that

Mar 01 16:10:37 <EML> So are we really talking about alien cooking, or is that a placeholder?

Mar 01 16:10:38 <Lensman> I hadn't either, thanks ED!

Mar 01 16:10:56 <SolBelter>

Mar 01 16:11:05 <Lensman> Well at the moment the main discussion is "The Niven Project"

Mar 01 16:11:12 <Lensman>

Mar 01 16:11:32 <NickE> nice

Mar 01 16:11:34 <Lensman> But earlier there was a bit of discussion of Kzinti and Puppeteer culinary habits.

Mar 01 16:12:06 <EML> Wow -- way cool site.

Mar 01 16:12:10 <SeanS> I think that topic has been up there for a while... feel free to change it.

Mar 01 16:12:11 <Lensman> Ed: Such as: Why don't Puppeteers eat cooked food? It seems to me they'd enjoy a good vegetable soup.

Mar 01 16:12:38 <Lensman> All egoboo thrown my way will be eagerly lapped up. :)

Mar 01 16:12:43 <SolBelter> "it heats my food to only one temp and it's the *WRONG* temp!" Chmee

Mar 01 16:13:20 <NickE> nice line

Mar 01 16:13:44 <EML> I don't think we ever said Puppeteers don't cook.

Mar 01 16:13:53 <Lensman> Sol: Yes. Someone mentioned a MKW story has Kzinti marinating their meat. Doesn't seem to fit with them preferring to eat fresh kills, but I suppose some decadent Kzinti might want flavoring.

Mar 01 16:14:30 <SolBelter> for their gamy older humans...

Mar 01 16:14:34 <NickE> Destiny's Forge goes into that in some detail

Mar 01 16:14:55 <Lensman> Ed: Come to think of it, I think Nessus does specify "warm" carrot juice. But does "warm" mean blood temp (lukewarm), or slightly heated?

Mar 01 16:15:03 <NickE> sauces and prepaation styles for raw meat

Mar 01 16:15:18 <EML> Off the top of my head, Nessus likes warm carrot juice. Warming = cooking (trivially).

Mar 01 16:15:30 <Lensman> Ed: I doubt it says anywhere in FOW that the *never* cook food, but all the eating scenes I can recall have them eating raw foods.

Mar 01 16:15:32 <NickE> heck, look at human cuisine with raw food

Mar 01 16:15:41 <SolBelter> boosting temp beyond room temp

Mar 01 16:16:00 <Lensman> Ed and I are thinking in parallel.

Mar 01 16:16:41 <EML> From Chapter 8: "Signaled by his {Nessus'}weight on the bench, a shallow trough of mush, a loaf of bread, and a bowl of chilled water materialized on the tabletop in front of him."

Mar 01 16:16:50 <EML> Certainly bread is cooked.

Mar 01 16:17:11 <Lensman> Ed: You've got them eating a mixture of grains and grasses, as I recall. And salads. That's all I can remember, except for Nessus apparently eccentric habit of drinking (non-nutritious, for him) carrot juice.

Mar 01 16:17:15 <NickE> oh yes. Makes sense

Mar 01 16:17:22 <SolBelter> no Omar Khayyam, the puppeteer :)

Mar 01 16:17:27 <Lensman> Ah! Bread. I sit corrected!

Mar 01 16:17:55 <Lensman> And mush, too-- that's likely cooked, I think?

Mar 01 16:18:07 <EML> I read a review that took umbrage at the home world being named Hearth, precicely because of the (mis) conception Puppeteers eat only raw food.

Mar 01 16:19:11 <SolBelter> <watching the reviewer unfolding his umbrage like kzinti ears...>

Mar 01 16:19:20 <Lensman> Ed: Yah I read that too. People that ignorant shouldn't be allowed to post reviews on the Internet.

Mar 01 16:19:21 <EML> LOL

Mar 01 16:19:53 <EML> If the ignorant were barred form the internet ... no, that's too big a conceptual leap for me.

Mar 01 16:19:55 <Lensman> Even if the Puppeteers did not cook, there's still the *emotional* meaning of "hearth", as in "hearth an home", as a place of comfort and safety.

Mar 01 16:20:10 <SolBelter> Lens, u are proposing to cut daily net traffic by 90%, i take it

Mar 01 16:20:19 <Lensman> Er, "hearth and home".

Mar 01 16:20:27 * SolBelter nodding to EML

Mar 01 16:20:32 <Lensman> LOL! SB, works for me. :)

Mar 01 16:21:12 <EML> yeah, primitive puppeteers might need fire just for warmth. in the olden days, there were (gasp) seasons.

Mar 01 16:21:30 <Lensman> And *gasp* a day/night cycle.

Mar 01 16:21:49 <SolBelter> oh, and friends can call me Sol or SB, but not SoB :)

Mar 01 16:21:51 <NickE> well of course. Fire would be a ncessary prelude to technology

Mar 01 16:22:08 <Lensman> Or maybe I can just call you Spike.

Mar 01 16:22:23 <SolBelter> that works too,

Mar 01 16:22:26 <EML> (Breaks into song) You got to have HEARTH. Miles and miles and miles of HEARTH ...

Mar 01 16:23:02 <NickE> :-)

Mar 01 16:23:19 <jim_stiles> :-)

Mar 01 16:23:20 <SolBelter> Fire eventually replaced by body heat of trillions for warmth, plus architecture

Mar 01 16:23:54 <SolBelter> not in that order...

Mar 01 16:24:19 <Lensman> Harry Harrison tried mightily to make a believable technological species which didn't use fire, in /West of Eden/. They were sea-dwellers (in the novel only recently having conquered the land), and IIRC used catalysts to speed reactions, and bio-tech. Not sure it's very believable, but the concept was interesting. Altho very poorly executed, story-wise.

Mar 01 16:24:32 <EML> Sure, SB ... but the common name for the world arose much earlier. Humans don't rename the world because we have new tech toys.

Mar 01 16:24:32 <SolBelter> <watching EML attempting a 3-footed dance with two feet>

Mar 01 16:25:02 <Lensman> "A world named Dirt or Earth or something like that..."

Mar 01 16:25:09 <NickE> heh

Mar 01 16:25:11 <EML> Kinda takes the sting out of having two left feet.

Mar 01 16:25:36 <Lensman> And Slippery Jim diGriz calls it "Dirt" for the rest of the book... :)

Mar 01 16:25:37 <jim_stiles> some of Asmiov's characters have referred to the original home of humanity as Dirt

Mar 01 16:25:39 <SolBelter> or Earth OR Hearth ...

Mar 01 16:26:25 <NickE> That was the firts book of Harry's that I read (the 3rd SSR book)

Mar 01 16:26:40 <EML> I'll venture a guess Kzinti also have cooking. You can't always find fresh prey (say, in the middle of winter), so the ability to preserve meat woudl be a survival characteristic.

Mar 01 16:26:44 <SolBelter> and the Dumerest of Terra series used the dirt or earth , but never said loam ...

Mar 01 16:26:50 <Lensman> Spike, how long are you going to be on here? I don't want to interrupt this discussion but I'd like to pick you brain on why you wanted to move some stories on the Timeline, such as "Cloak of Anarchy".

Mar 01 16:27:49 <SolBelter> i'm on a while, but beem decades since i walked the timeline, so no memories of why without rereading

Mar 01 16:27:55 <SolBelter> sorry bout that

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Mar 01 16:28:20 <NickE> hey

Mar 01 16:28:29 <SolBelter> it was all from story text, not Larry convos

Mar 01 16:28:36 <EML> Olla, Chief.

Mar 01 16:28:44 <Lensman> Ed: Good point. Larger ships may have hunting parks, but I get the impression that for the "lower ranks" those would be a rare treat, at best. Probably on most ships, most of the crew eat preserved or frozen foods. (Snarl! Third time I've broken a tooth this voyage. I wish they'd heat up this frozen meat before serving it...)

Mar 01 16:29:44 <EML> Imagine the great Kzinti voyages of discovery, seeking an all-by-sea route to the Spice Islands.

Mar 01 16:30:18 <SolBelter> i remember a MKW story where the human mind-in-kzin telepath was fading from all the raw meat he was eating

Mar 01 16:30:42 <SolBelter> while on a kzin ship

Mar 01 16:31:10 <Lensman> "Choosing Names" ?

Mar 01 16:31:17 <SolBelter> ...and *all*) the landfalls met by attacks

Mar 01 16:31:36 <EML> BUT (gasp) seriously ... cooking decreases the body's work to digest food. There are serious anthropologists who think cooking was needed to develop the human brain to its modern size. Without fire no one could eat enough. (LOTS of blood flow to the brain.)

Mar 01 16:31:48 <SolBelter> cant recall - too much raw meat for me lately :)

Mar 01 16:32:28 <Lensman> Ed: Oh, thanx! I was speculating earlier on the possible evolutionary advantages of eating cooked food. Hadn't heard that one!

Mar 01 16:32:29 <SolBelter> interesting! few % gain or few tens of %?

Mar 01 16:33:15 <SolBelter> landfalls remark was 4 EML and sailing kzin

Mar 01 16:33:24 <EML> Sorry, I didn't retain numbers. That said, I'd guess tens fo percent.

Mar 01 16:33:53 <SolBelter> EML-thx, just after engineersw ballpark

Mar 01 16:33:57 <Lensman> IIRC the body concentrates blood near the stomach/intestines after a meal. This would obviously compete with the blood sent to the brain, which as you note is a "hog" for blood supply in the Human body.

Mar 01 16:34:16 <EML> The gain applies to herbivores, BTW. Grass isn't all that nutritious. All that darn cellulose.

Mar 01 16:35:44 <EML> Per Asimov, to explain all the blood that went to the brain, Aristotle thought the brain must be a cooling organ.

Mar 01 16:35:46 <Lensman> Right, that's why I'm surprised that FOW has Puppeteer eating grasses so much. Sure they need roughage, being ruminants, but they'd have to spend a large fraction of their time eating if most their food value comes from eating grass. Obviously, it doesn't... you've got them eating grains mixed with the grasses, which makes sense.

Mar 01 16:37:19 <EML> Maybe they just LIKE grains and grasses -- like people sitting around eating chips or chocolate when they should be eating, gag, vegetables.

Mar 01 16:37:35 <SolBelter> EML, given most heat loss from body is feet, hands, and head for a [clothed? or naked?]person, Arist had right idea

Mar 01 16:37:52 <Lensman> Of course, one can't tell from a description in the book what *percentage* is grasses and what percentage grains. Perhaps they just have enough grasses for roughage and trace minerals.

Mar 01 16:37:54 <SolBelter> but it was the head, not the brain cooling

Mar 01 16:38:33 <jim_stiles> EML: wikipedia claims that there is evidence that homo erectus cooked his food

Mar 01 16:38:36 <SolBelter> Eml, behavior crossing species, i like that

Mar 01 16:38:57 <SolBelter> some commpnality in our irrational pleasure

Mar 01 16:39:19 <Lensman> But how could Aristotle tell the difference between brain and head cooling? "Hold still and quit howling! This is in the interest of science." :)

Mar 01 16:39:20 <EML> Now the Gw'oth will have trouble cooking. Hopefully they like sushi.

Mar 01 16:39:59 <EML> Lens; hapily (for your pictured victim) the Greeks didn't believe in experiments.

Mar 01 16:40:01 <SolBelter> L3ns and EML, possibly extra nutriants added to mush? like calcium plus milk for us

Mar 01 16:40:04 <Lensman> The Gw'oth appear to be able to "cheat" when it comes to brain power, so perhaps they have less of a need.

Mar 01 16:41:10 <EML> My mother used to tell me that fish = brain food. She could never explain why, though.

Mar 01 16:41:23 <NickE> Omega 3

Mar 01 16:41:36 <NickE> We know now

Mar 01 16:41:52 <EML> Oil vey!

Mar 01 16:41:56 <SolBelter> "MushPuppies [TM] fortified with energy boosters!

Mar 01 16:42:18 <NickE> brb

Mar 01 16:42:20 <EML> LOL

Mar 01 16:42:21 <Lensman> SB: I'm sure at the Puppeteers tech level they can provide trace vitamins and minerals in just about any food, without affecting the taste. In fact, I get the impression that Puppeteer culture has preserved many ancient Puppeteer habits out of tradition. Note the Companions are kept in natural-appearing settings.

Mar 01 16:43:22 * SolBelter nods at Lens, so i'd think they'd kept the mush and boosted it

Mar 01 16:43:28 <Lensman> Ed: re Greek experiments: Yah, I know, but I thought the joke was worth it anyway.

Mar 01 16:43:37 <EML> And, of course, the root of tree-of-life is nature's most perfect food.

Mar 01 16:44:31 <Lensman> Why, because protectors need not eat *anything* else?

Mar 01 16:44:44 <SolBelter> speak for yourself, u knobbly beakface!

Mar 01 16:44:53 <Lensman> More evidence of genegineering, if you ask me!

Mar 01 16:45:26 <Lensman> SB: Dunno what you posted, but in the mIRC I'm using, it's just a green bar.

Mar 01 16:45:30 <EML> Right -- protectors can survive on just TOL. Phssphtok (sp?) ate nothing else for 1000+ years on his way to Sol system.

Mar 01 16:45:35 <SolBelter> try again re liferoot - speak for yrself, beakface

Mar 01 16:46:09 <Lensman> AIEEEE! MY Eyes! SB, please don't use that font color! I'm seeing it on white background here.

Mar 01 16:46:37 <Lensman> Ed: 13,000 years, IIRC.

Mar 01 16:46:40 <SolBelter> next one ok, Lens?

Mar 01 16:46:41 <EML> Tree-of-life must be related to spinach as well as yams. hence Popeye: I yam what i yam ...)

Mar 01 16:47:03 <NickE> oh groan

Mar 01 16:47:13 <SolBelter> and Popeye protected people

Mar 01 16:47:19 <NickE> (TOL looking like sweet potatoes)

Mar 01 16:47:28 <NickE> kinda

Mar 01 16:47:35 <NickE> a bit

Mar 01 16:47:48 <Lensman> LOL! Popeye as a Protector...

Mar 01 16:48:06 <NickE> heh

Mar 01 16:48:19 <EML> speaking of the virus, Brennan says: I got a variant that would grow in a yam.

Mar 01 16:48:27 <Lensman> Protectors: Bringing new meaning to "You are what you eat."

Mar 01 16:48:44 <EML> That suggests yams are degenerate (not in a pejorative sense) TOL.

Mar 01 16:49:42 <NickE> could be :-)

Mar 01 16:49:53 <Lensman> I ran across a bit in one of Blish's /Cities in Flight/ where they were doing experiments with yams in growing enzymes to extend life. I wonder if Larry's TOL was a tribute to that? Or an unconscious imitation?

Mar 01 16:50:11 <NickE> lets face it, the host plant grew, just teh virus didn't

Mar 01 16:50:57 <EML> There had to have been *lots* of mutation between TOL and yams. The yams we know don't form on tree roots.

Mar 01 16:51:04 <NickE> (have to say, the thallium oxide thing never really made sense, though it was necessary for the story)

Mar 01 16:51:11 <Lensman> Ed: Ooohhh very good point about yams' relation to TOL! I'll have to remember to mention that in the Concordance.

Mar 01 16:51:40 <EML> and there will be MORE to learn about Pak ...

Mar 01 16:51:50 <NickE> tease!

Mar 01 16:51:54 <SolBelter> "the thallic phallacy"

Mar 01 16:52:00 <Lensman> Tanj Ed quit teasing us!!

Mar 01 16:52:16 <Lensman> SB: Please, please change your font color! Not kidding.

Mar 01 16:52:18 <NickE> Spike, that sounds so philthy

Mar 01 16:52:48 <NickE> which it wa :-)

Mar 01 16:52:51 <NickE> s

Mar 01 16:52:59 <SolBelter> :)

Mar 01 16:53:02 <EML> Well, JOW isn't far off. Corrected galleys just went back to the publisher. (But that's not where you'll read about Pak).

Mar 01 16:53:11 <jim_stiles> what is the point of changing colors if there are bad colors

Mar 01 16:53:15 <NickE> #3?

Mar 01 16:53:21 <Lensman> Nick: Pls expound re why thallium oxide isn't rational as a needed trace element.

Mar 01 16:53:22 <EML> #3.

Mar 01 16:53:24 <SolBelter> groan, EML

Mar 01 16:53:31 <jim_stiles> just kidding

Mar 01 16:53:34 <NickE> Oh boy

Mar 01 16:54:01 <EML> There are no bad colors, just old eyes.

Mar 01 16:54:09 <Lensman> Jim: I gather that those of you accessing this chat room thru the Java client don't see the same colors we do thru mIRC. No dobut you can actually READ what appears as light lime green on white to me!

Mar 01 16:54:59 <SolBelter> ah! yes, quite visible re contrast

Mar 01 16:55:23 <Lensman> SB: Thank you! <Sigh of relief>

Mar 01 16:55:31 <jim_stiles> I had selected bright orange on white; SolBelter's color was bright green on white

Mar 01 16:55:43 <SolBelter> re old eyes, i had cataracts and would have been blinded by this white bkgrnd

Mar 01 16:55:59 <EML> IR on UV has nice contrast.

Mar 01 16:56:01 <Lensman> Jim: I can read your font color just fine.

Mar 01 16:56:19 <NickE> well, it may make sense for the host plant, but unless the virus packaging say depended on some plant metallo protein (lack of which would kill the plant too) then I can's see the virus neding a trace element

Mar 01 16:56:30 <SolBelter> let me try this one

Mar 01 16:56:52 <NickE> na uh, thats just brown nothing Spike

Mar 01 16:56:52 <SolBelter> nope solid bar of color

Mar 01 16:57:08 <EML> SB: all I see on your last line is a chocolate bar. While in general I aprrove of those ...

Mar 01 16:57:48 <jim_stiles>

Mar 01 16:58:04 <jim_stiles> whs

Mar 01 16:58:17 <EML> Thinking "out loud" ... viruses do not reproduce themselves. They hijack cells for that purpose. So some cell type must need the trace metal to reproduce itself.

Mar 01 16:58:25 <Lensman> Nick: So, are you saying that the plant wouldn't absorb a trace mineral if it didn't "need" it? I don't think that's how it works.

Mar 01 16:58:38 <NickE> So it would kill the plant

Mar 01 16:59:59 <NickE> No. The plant grew, the virus didn't. Viruses do not contain metallo enzymes (well, not modern ones)

Mar 01 17:00:09 <EML> Still thinkign out loud: if the thalium oxide is rarer on Earth than on Pakhome, the TOL might have been unable to conentrate the metal to some necessary threshold.

Mar 01 17:00:13 <Lensman> Only if you insist the virus can't use any trace mineral that's not used by the plant's metabolism. If there are trace amounts of thallium oxide in the water of the Pak homeworld, that should get absorbed by plants growing there even if they don't metabolize it.

Mar 01 17:01:15 <NickE> Yes, but something in the replication or actual make up of the virus must have required thallium

Mar 01 17:01:36 <Lensman> Terrestrial viruses don't use thallium oxide. Is it impossibe that an alien one does? The theory given in /Protector/ is that TO is common on worlds near the galactic core, but rare out here in the "suburbs".

Mar 01 17:01:57 <NickE> and it must have been something that teh plant itself could get by without

Mar 01 17:02:03 <EML> Brennan reports: "If there's no thalium in the soil, the root still grows, but it won't support the virus."

Mar 01 17:02:14 <NickE> exactly

Mar 01 17:02:16 <EML> "support" is a rather vague term.

Mar 01 17:02:52 * SolBelter has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Mar 01 17:02:59 * Sol (~Sol@ has joined #knownspace

Mar 01 17:03:34 <Lensman> Right, the plant could get by without it but the virus couldn't. I can't see why that's biologically unlikely.

Mar 01 17:03:36 <Sol> [had to relog to get default text bk]

Mar 01 17:03:56 <NickE> I can't think of any virus that needs any metallo protein in it's own makeup (some viruses contain enzymes to assist in replication) And certainly none that require metallo proteins in teh capsid (protein coat)

Mar 01 17:05:12 <EML> I infer the TO relates to the host cell whose job it is to replicate the virus. Without TO, the hijacked cellular nucleus doesn't work quite right.

Mar 01 17:05:48 <Lensman> Nick, I'm sure you're aware that different species have different needs for trace minerals and vitamins. Why couldn't an extraterrestrial organism evolve a need for something not common on Earth?

Mar 01 17:05:54 <NickE> Any enzyme required for the plant to replicate the plasmid, would (unless it came from the virus itself) be a plant enzyme, the lack of which or incorrect function of which would damage the plant in some identifiable way

Mar 01 17:06:40 <EML> Lots of functions in molecular biology rely on self assembly, which requires correct positioning. Perhaps TO is a catalyst, whose presence impacts the geometry of self assembly.

Mar 01 17:07:15 <Lensman> Ed: I was thinking of a catalyst, too.

Mar 01 17:07:37 <EML> For example, the virus' capsid may be flawed unless a TO-related compound is present during self-assembly.

Mar 01 17:07:39 <NickE> No existing enzyme requires a metal like thallium as far as I know. Earth life and Pak life are compatible, ergo there are enzynmatic similarities

Mar 01 17:08:10 <NickE> Ed, thtas probably the likeliest explanation

Mar 01 17:08:37 <EML> Hmm. Now I should copy it down.

Mar 01 17:09:41 <Lensman> BUT this may have relevance to the argument that TOL was genegineered to create a Protector race of warriors.

Mar 01 17:09:48 <jim_stiles> NickE: when you say metal like Tl what do you mean; it is a poor metal like Al

Mar 01 17:10:25 * growler (~growler@ has joined #knownspace

Mar 01 17:10:26 <NickE> Tl is a group 5 element, doesnt fit existing biology as essential as far as know

Mar 01 17:10:52 <NickE> yeah, Al is gp5 too

Mar 01 17:11:34 <NickE> I'm rusty on mineral requirements

Mar 01 17:11:50 <NickE> heh

Mar 01 17:11:55 <EML> Any life transplanted from Pakhome to Earth has had a long time to evolve to local conditions. I'd expect any thalium dependencies to have been weeded out by now.

Mar 01 17:12:13 <jim_stiles> I believe that plants use Al, but not animals

Mar 01 17:12:49 <EML> As aluminum is implicated in Alzheimers, perhaps that's why plants are so dumb.

Mar 01 17:12:56 <NickE> yeah, you may be right there

Mar 01 17:13:11 <NickE> (on plants needing Al)

Mar 01 17:14:32 <NickE> Tl is nasty stuff. toxic, possible carcinogen

Mar 01 17:14:33 <EML> now as for cooking ... Grogs can't -- and they're almost all brain.

Mar 01 17:16:09 <NickE> yes, TL dependancy for plants may have evolved out, but just can't pinpoint a hugely likely point at whch the virus might depend on it aprt fom the capsid formation that you brought up

Mar 01 17:16:33 <Lensman> There's no evidence Grogs use prepared artifacts/tools of any sort. They apparently gave up a lot in the process of atrophying to their present form.

Mar 01 17:16:37 <NickE> guess we don't need to go into it in this much depth :-)

Mar 01 17:17:29 <EML> The plants aren't necessarily dependent on thalium. They may be indifferent to its presence or absence. Only the virus cared.

Mar 01 17:18:30 <EML> FWIW, I'm oughta here in 5-10 minutes.

Mar 01 17:19:24 <Lensman> Well, thanks once again for dropping in, Ed. The conversation here is always more interesting when you're in the room!

Mar 01 17:19:41 <jim_stiles> yes, thanks Ed

Mar 01 17:19:55 <NickE> the univalent thallium(I) ion (Tl+), it exhibits some similarities with essential alkali metal cations, particularly potassium (as the atomic radius is almost identical). It can thus enter the body via potassium uptake pathways. However, other aspects of thallium's chemistry are very different from that of the alkali metals (e.g., its high affinity for sulfur ligands due to the presence of empty d-orbitals), and so this substitution disrupts many cellular

Mar 01 17:20:29 <EML> Lens: very gracious. As for me (besides enjoying myself), dropping by always provides (heh) food for thought for upcoming material.

Mar 01 17:20:49 <NickE> glad to have you dropping in

Mar 01 17:21:19 <EML> No doubt Larry will stop by real soon now LOL

Mar 01 17:21:56 <Lensman> Ed: Can you give us any hint as to whether or not the story you're developing re the Pak will tell is whether or not the Protector stage was artificially created by another species?

Mar 01 17:22:14 <NickE> That's cos you're the same person Thouht we established that by now :-)

Mar 01 17:23:03 <Lensman> Yah, your Larry persona revealed you're one and the same. So if you leave, Larry can enter. ;-)

Mar 01 17:23:18 <EML> Lens: that's too big a shoe to drop (or not to drop) so far ahead of time.

Mar 01 17:23:18 <NickE> hehe

Mar 01 17:24:30 <EML> See y'all next month (AFAIK now).

Mar 01 17:24:31 <Lensman> Ed: Well I realized the only answer I could possibly get is "No", because if it's "Yes" then you can't talk about it! And I prefer it that way... no spoilers before reading the book! But in this case I guess it's still "iffy" if this book will actually get written?

Mar 01 17:24:57 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Mar 01 17:25:43 <Lensman> Time is now 4:24 Central Time. Let's see if Larry shows up.

Mar 01 17:26:04 <NickE> 10 mins usually does it :-)

Mar 01 17:26:30 <Sol> Lens: here;s the current state of the Second Life Ringworld Gallery

Mar 01 17:26:39 <Sol>

Mar 01 17:26:41 <Lensman> Less than that, I think. But in the past it's been Ed who's popped in right after Larry leaves. Can it be t'other way 'round?

Mar 01 17:26:58 <NickE> maybe we'll find out :-)

Mar 01 17:27:10 <Sol> aha! Are EmL and Larry *commutative!?"

Mar 01 17:27:50 <Sol> or only a EML ==> Larry reaction.operation

Mar 01 17:28:08 <Sol> not the reverse?! hmmm

Mar 01 17:28:29 <Sol> tictictic

Mar 01 17:28:54 <Lensman> Perhaps, like Schrodinger's cat, Larry/Ed only resolve into a distict persona when someone is actually talking to him/them.

Mar 01 17:29:10 <Sol> good solution

Mar 01 17:31:19 <Sol> so there's a verb - he LarryEd into the other

Mar 01 17:31:34 <Sol> username

Mar 01 17:32:00 <Lensman> Sol: I take it the only way to get a closer look at this gallery is to actually enter the "Second Life" game? And I think I already asked that? You realize, of course, you're inspiring thoughts of murder here... BTW I e-mailed you about contacting one of the artists, the one for the picture showing the /Liar/ in the trench, but you didn't respond.

Mar 01 17:32:20 <Lensman> LOL! Verb forms of nouns...

Mar 01 17:32:55 <Sol> oh sorry thot i told y mark owned the pics, gave u his eddress in case he knew how to contact Bill

Mar 01 17:33:00 <Sol> i'll resend

Mar 01 17:33:24 <Lensman> Thanks! Maybe I've been missing getting some e-mails.

Mar 01 17:33:43 <Sol> most of the SL pics are on IlluX collectors site

Mar 01 17:35:25 <Lensman> Okay, so where would I find the "IlluX collectors site" ?

Mar 01 17:35:30 <Sol> mine are here

Mar 01 17:36:35 <Sol> then click Illustration Exchange Galleries to gedt to

Mar 01 17:36:50 <Sol> or start there :)

Mar 01 17:37:17 <Sol> maddening - all sorted by cllector, not siftable by artis

Mar 01 17:37:44 <Sol> but just goog illustration exchange and "artist name" as workaround

Mar 01 17:42:59 <Lensman> I think that's a better copy of Schoenherr's cover for "The Borderland of Sol" than I have.

Mar 01 17:44:18 <Lensman> I see one other illo which I've never seen before, a scratch-board illo showing some of LW&HMC from the rear. Interesting take on Nessus' heads.

Mar 01 17:45:07 <Lensman> At least, I guess it's Nessus. Can't think of any case where Hindmost was off his ship.

Mar 01 17:45:40 <Sol> yes re Boarderland - i have the original 2 x 3 foot version

Mar 01 17:46:17 <Lensman> Wow! That's a very nice piece, too. Altho he's make Jinx *much* too elongated.

Mar 01 17:46:45 <Sol> yes he did but "artistic license, at least he tried

Mar 01 17:46:49 <Sol> afk for 3

Mar 01 17:47:51 <Lensman> Yah, I got to thinking that if he had actually done it accurately, it would be unnoticable, or nearly so. Some exaggeration was appropriate, but I he went *wayyy* overboard on that!

Mar 01 17:48:31 <Lensman> Nick are you still here?

Mar 01 17:50:17 <Sol> i'm bk, tho

Mar 01 17:50:36 <Sol> oh, noticable, i thot

Mar 01 17:50:55 <Sol> "sticking out into vacuum" re the Ends

Mar 01 17:51:23 <Sol> so at least a what? 5%, to 20% bulge

Mar 01 17:51:33 <Sol> maybe less

Mar 01 17:51:36 <Sol> lessee

Mar 01 17:51:57 <Lensman> I see Aldo Spadoni *did* respond, he says he's working today but may drop in for a bit. He's on the West Coast so I would guess he won't show up until after working hours in that time zone.

Mar 01 17:52:14 <Sol> earth atmo is 20 miles to 200 miles, depending on diff

Mar 01 17:52:27 <NickE> sory, yes still here

Mar 01 17:52:34 <Sol> earth radius 4k miles

Mar 01 17:53:00 <Sol> 200/4000 = 1/20th

Mar 01 17:53:15 <Sol> so how hard a vaccuum do u want

Mar 01 17:53:39 <Sol> might call 500 mile mark an industrial vaccuum

Mar 01 17:53:59 <Sol> so 500/4000 is 1/8th bulge

Mar 01 17:54:14 <NickE> catching up on th list (behind!)

Mar 01 17:54:28 <Lensman> Ends stick up 600 miles IIRC (Game says 1000 km, which is close). Not sure what the diameter of the planet is, presumably it's larger than Earth's c.8000 mile diameter.

Mar 01 17:54:36 <Sol> so i think Schoenherr is on the right track

Mar 01 17:54:48 * growler has quit ()

Mar 01 17:55:00 <Sol> well, jinx is a moon

Mar 01 17:55:11 <Sol> no number for size?

Mar 01 17:56:55 <Lensman> I don't *see* one in the game. Doznt mean it's not there.

Mar 01 17:57:05 <Sol> k re Aldo but i'm off soon

Mar 01 17:58:12 <Lensman> The Concordance has the mass but not the radius/diameter.

Mar 01 17:58:49 <Lensman> Well, Aldo likely won't show up for another 2 1/2 hours or more, if it's after he gets home from work.

Mar 01 18:02:15 <Sol> k, and i just emailed Mark Olson with cc to u

Mar 01 18:02:29 <Sol> thx re jinx

Mar 01 18:02:34 <Sol> take care!

Mar 01 18:02:56 <Sol> NickE, c u :)

Mar 01 18:04:02 <jim_stiles> h

Mar 01 18:04:06 * Sol has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Mar 01 18:04:26 <jim_stiles>

Mar 01 18:06:02 <Lensman> Mark Olson, now there's a familiar name. I think he's on the SMOFS list and also the Piper discussion list.

Mar 01 18:06:16 <NickE> ttfn

Mar 01 18:06:22 <NickE> oh arse

Mar 01 18:07:56 <Lensman> What's wrong, Nick?

Mar 01 18:09:05 <NickE> keep missing folks saying bye :-)

Mar 01 18:10:11 <NickE> staying online for a bit, but will be watching a DVD before bed

Mar 01 18:13:40 <Lensman> Which DVD?

Mar 01 18:24:10 <jim_stiles> Nick, what time zone are you in - it seems a little early for bed?

Mar 01 18:25:29 <NickE> GMT

Mar 01 18:25:36 <NickE> UK

Mar 01 18:26:16 <jim_stiles> OK

Mar 01 18:26:32 <NickE> Tru Calling

Mar 01 18:26:39 <NickE> is ok

Mar 01 18:26:52 <Lensman> I am gonna have to reboot. Be back in a few.

Mar 01 18:27:40 <Lensman> Well maybe not.

Mar 01 18:28:41 <Lensman> Well, yes.

Mar 01 18:28:45 * Lensman has quit ()

Mar 01 18:31:36 * Lensman (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

Mar 01 18:50:15 <NickE> well, knocking on midnight here. Sack time, long week

Mar 01 18:51:28 <NickE> night

Mar 01 18:52:10 <NickE> catch you guys next month

Mar 01 18:52:27 * NickE has quit ()

Mar 01 18:55:18 * FlyingAway (~Carol@ has joined #knownspace

Mar 01 18:55:34 * FlyingAway is now known as FlyingDragon

Mar 01 18:55:44 <FlyingDragon> Hello

Mar 01 18:55:52 <Lensman> Hi Carol!

Mar 01 18:56:23 <FlyingDragon> I'm back from Ninja school, Ninja Dinning, and Ninja housework.

Mar 01 18:56:45 <FlyingDragon> Lensman, are you the only one not AFK?

Mar 01 18:57:14 <FlyingDragon> Not dinning, dining. I don't learn to to make Ninja noise.

Mar 01 18:57:15 <Lensman> Is there a kata for using the vacuum sweeper? (Do ninjas do katas? I dunno.)

Mar 01 18:57:42 <Lensman> I think I'm the only one "live" here, sorry.

Mar 01 18:58:06 <FlyingDragon> Not Ninja, really. Kuk Soolin. THere is a zen state for vacuuming, and I only get it when vacuuming the do-jang. I don't vacuum my own floor.

Mar 01 18:58:28 <jim_stiles> i'm here

Mar 01 18:58:59 <FlyingDragon> Hello, Jim

Mar 01 19:00:30 <FlyingDragon> What did we talk about today?

Mar 01 19:01:21 <Lensman> The conversation picked up for awhile when Ed was here; we talked a bit about what Puppeteers and Kzinti eat, and debated the biology of tree-of-life and how likely it was that thallium oxide would be a requirement.

Mar 01 19:01:49 <FlyingDragon> Hmm. What do Puppeteers eat, according to Ed?

Mar 01 19:02:01 <Lensman> I invited Aldo Spadoni in to talk about The Niven Project, but he had to work. He might be by later, after work on the West Coast.

Mar 01 19:02:36 <FlyingDragon> WOrk on Sat?

Mar 01 19:03:21 <Lensman> I expressed surprise that Puppeteers eat only raw foods, but Ed pointed out that FOW says they eat gruel and bread. "Gruel"? Am I spelling that wrong?

Mar 01 19:03:46 <Lensman> Yes, on Saturday.

Mar 01 19:04:06 <FlyingDragon> Yes, Gruel is cooked cereal.

Mar 01 19:04:22 <FlyingDragon> Raw veggies, cooked cereal?

Mar 01 19:04:32 <Lensman> Okay, it looked wrong somehow.

Mar 01 19:05:04 <Lensman> I thought perhaps they might like a good hot vegetable soup, but if so it's not to be found in FOW.

Mar 01 19:06:12 <FlyingDragon> Physiologically, it seems to me that if they can cook and eat grains, then cooked veggies shouldn't be a problem, just a preference or not.

Mar 01 19:07:07 <Lensman> Right, a preference. ISTM that Puppeteers do a lot of things that indicate they're preserving their ancient traditions. They could eat completely artificial foods, after all... like food bricks.

Mar 01 19:08:01 <Lensman> They keep the Companions in natural-appearing preserves; I think that's another indication that Tradition is very strong in their culture.

Mar 01 19:08:29 <Lensman> Considering their very conservative tendencies, that's not surprising.

Mar 01 19:08:43 <Lensman> At least, that's how I see it.

Mar 01 19:10:30 <Lensman> Ed talked about how cooked food is easier to digest, therefore takes less energy, and that there is a theory that due to the large blood supply our brains need, cooking was a requirement for us to develop a large brain. I don't recall reading that theory before, but it sounds interesting!

Mar 01 19:12:47 <Lensman> So, Carol, what was the Ninja reference? Just joking, or are you currently practicing the arts of hiding, distraction, holding perfectly still, etc. in Kuk Soolin?

Mar 01 19:13:03 <FlyingDragon> Seems a silly theory. People survive nicely on raw food.

Mar 01 19:13:38 <FlyingDragon> SeanS always refers to me going to Ninja school. Just a joke.

Mar 01 19:14:17 <FlyingDragon> Although my master refered me to a Korean movie about a man who developed a ninja kind of hiding. I think it is called Three Iron. Very good movie.

Mar 01 19:14:54 <Lensman> Yah, I was also thinking of the Tom Hanks movie "Cast Away" where he survives on raw fish for some years. "Interesting idea" doesn't necessarily mean it's likely, just that it's thought-provoking.

Mar 01 19:15:25 <FlyingDragon> Yes, Interesting doens't mean true.

Mar 01 19:15:55 <Lensman> I am fascinated that Mimes and Ninja could learn to hold themselves as still as statues.

Mar 01 19:16:37 <FlyingDragon> IT takes patience to hold still. A very hard thing to do. A good model gets good at holding still.

Mar 01 19:21:58 <FlyingDragon> Tom Hanks NEVER makes fire on this island?

Mar 01 19:24:11 <Lensman> IIRC he does, but after awhile apparently he doesn't bother cooking the fish he catches, just eats it raw.

Mar 01 19:24:31 <SeanS> i saw that

Mar 01 19:24:39 <SeanS> i have company so am not really participating

Mar 01 19:25:16 <FlyingDragon> SOme fish is good raw, but that would get boring.

Mar 01 19:25:19 <FlyingDragon> HEllo, Sean.

Mar 01 19:25:25 <Lensman> That's okay Sean, I'm working on the Known Space Timeline version 3.0, so I'm just checking in here occasionally.

Mar 01 19:26:42 <FlyingDragon> I probably won't be hanging around long then. I need to nap. I'm still not well.

Mar 01 19:29:11 <Lensman> Get your rest then, Carol. If you've been well enough to go to you do-jon (sp?), then I guess you're feeling somewhat better.

Mar 01 19:29:45 <Lensman> Do-jang.

Mar 01 19:30:09 <FlyingDragon> I'm feeling a little better. But out of five classes I was eligible to attend/teach, I only went to two.

Mar 01 19:30:37 <FlyingDragon> Monday I'm not goign to do my regular four hours, but I haven't decided what one or two I am going to do.

Mar 01 19:31:21 * chief_strike_anywhere has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Mar 01 19:33:15 <FlyingDragon> Sorry I missed the Chief.

Mar 01 19:38:06 * jim_stiles has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Mar 01 19:40:39 * jim_stiles (~jim_stiles@ has joined #knownspace

Mar 01 19:41:13 <jim_stiles> i'm back

Mar 01 19:41:45 <FlyingDragon> Hi, Jim. Lensman and Sean have just told me they have other things to do, so I was getting ready to go take a nap.

Mar 01 19:42:27 * jim_stiles has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Mar 01 19:42:50 <Lensman> I'm still glancing in here, if anyone still wants to talk. But it sounds like you need your rest, Carol, so don't stay just to be polite.

Mar 01 19:43:22 * jim_stiles (~jim_stiles@ has joined #knownspace

Mar 01 19:43:37 <jim_stiles> i'm back again

Mar 01 19:44:58 <FlyingDragon> Thanks. I"m just responding to a post.

Mar 01 20:01:18 * Hippy (~captlychee@ has joined #knownspace

Mar 01 20:01:43 <jim_stiles> hi hippy

Mar 01 20:02:04 <Hippy> Hi there

Mar 01 20:02:38 <Hippy> I am just testing this new software to see if it can read what you're sayhing, but it doesn't appear to be working

Mar 01 20:03:12 <jim_stiles> Dave, I can't do that

Mar 01 20:03:16 <Lensman> Huh?

Mar 01 20:03:18 <Lensman> LOL

Mar 01 20:03:44 <jim_stiles> did it work?

Mar 01 20:03:52 <Hippy> I'll give a better explanation laterby email, but for the moment please accept that I can't read what you're telling me.

Mar 01 20:04:16 <Lensman> Is it supposed to capture the text in this chat room? I was trying to figure out how to do that earlier from within mIRC. I don't see any menu item which looks promising.

Mar 01 20:04:23 <Hippy> The eyesight has collapsed in the last week or so and I'm trying this new software, JAWS, to see if it will work with IRC

Mar 01 20:04:55 <FlyingDragon> I"ve done that, captured the text for archiving. I"m not sure where I keep it though.

Mar 01 20:05:39 <Lensman> Oh, ghod. That's my worst nightmare-- that I might not be able to read.

Mar 01 20:05:54 <Hippy> See to get a better account. I apologise for not responding directly if you're saying things.

Mar 01 20:06:36 <Lensman> Well, this is a new one: A one-sided conversation in a chat room. :)

Mar 01 20:06:37 <Hippy> Anyway, 'bye for now and I hope to bne back for Larry's birthday with something approaching vision.

Mar 01 20:06:43 * Hippy has quit ()

Mar 01 20:12:32 <jim_stiles> should there be more people soon from Oz?

Mar 01 20:12:41 <FlyingDragon> One would think.

Mar 01 20:12:48 <FlyingDragon> Hippy, isn't he from oz?

Mar 01 20:13:00 <jim_stiles> yes, hippy is from Oz

Mar 01 20:14:43 <FlyingDragon> He is having some bad vison problems.

Mar 01 20:14:58 <FlyingDragon> Loosing my eyesight would be pretty horrible.

Mar 01 20:15:56 <jim_stiles> yes, I don't know what I would do

Mar 01 20:19:14 <FlyingDragon> GOing to go wash some clothes before I take that nap. CU

Mar 01 20:19:28 * FlyingDragon is now known as FlyingAway

Mar 01 20:25:39 * giotto has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)