Chat Log: June 7th, 2014

2014-06-07 01:10:23 : "johnmanyjars" left the channel.
2014-06-07 03:11:55 : "johnmanyjars" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 08:14:43 : <andy> Hey, it's a Kevin and he lives near me! (If that DNS name can be trusted...)
2014-06-07 09:23:33 : <fredskuentz> he's from Facebook. He's a writer. He just got a note from Larry yesterday about how much Larry liked one of his stories.
2014-06-07 09:23:42 : <fredskuentz> so I invited him to the chat. :)
2014-06-07 09:29:16 : <andy> what's he written?
2014-06-07 09:29:41 : <andy> If it's novels I'll go over to my local bookshop and have them order at least one.
2014-06-07 10:03:08 : "HAL9000" left the channel.
2014-06-07 10:04:02 : "HAL9000" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 11:09:39 : <fredskuentz> this is the story larry liked. not in books yet.
2014-06-07 11:09:40 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 11:50:01 : <fredskuentz> Links to his other books at the link
2014-06-07 11:50:24 : <fredskuentz> "This is the second time I've managed to attract his attention. A couple years ago, he said he liked my story, "The Undead at War" an awful lot."
2014-06-07 13:21:54 : <sean> the disclaimer alone will make me read it. ;)
2014-06-07 13:37:15 : "NickE" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 13:46:51 : <NickE> afk
2014-06-07 13:49:37 : <andy> hi Nick
2014-06-07 13:54:15 : <NickE> hi andy, just about to have dinner- back in a bit
2014-06-07 14:04:42 : "Lensman" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 14:05:02 : <andy> Hey Lens
2014-06-07 14:05:16 : <Lensman> Hi andy!
2014-06-07 14:05:24 : <Lensman> Hello fen!
2014-06-07 14:05:36 : <Lensman> Greetings and felicitations.
2014-06-07 14:06:08 : <Lensman> (And two points for anyone who gets that rather obscure reference.)
2014-06-07 14:06:35 : <fredskuentz> Squire of Gothos
2014-06-07 14:06:53 : <Lensman> Bingo, Fred.
2014-06-07 14:06:56 : <fredskuentz> And, I believe it is pronounced, "Tally Ho"
2014-06-07 14:10:18 : <sean> I am loving this story
2014-06-07 14:10:29 : <Lensman> There's a George Pal Puppetoon entitled "What Ho She Bumps". For modern audiences, it's necessary to explain this is an archaic saying meaning roughly "Enemy in sight", and that "Ho" does not refer to...
2014-06-07 14:10:30 : <fredskuentz> cool
2014-06-07 14:10:46 : <fredskuentz> (to sean)
2014-06-07 14:10:52 : <sean> He looked at the Bible and sneered. “Only Satan would use the New International Version!”
2014-06-07 14:11:05 : <sean> cracked me up
2014-06-07 14:11:17 : <fredskuentz> Most of our common friends are Nivenites. Apparently he's tried before to chat and failed.
2014-06-07 14:12:24 : <Lensman> I take it you are discussing Dan's new story?
2014-06-07 14:12:32 : <fredskuentz> nope
2014-06-07 14:12:35 : <sean> nope
2014-06-07 14:12:46 : <fredskuentz> or what sean said
2014-06-07 14:13:05 : <Lensman> Jinx...
2014-06-07 14:13:16 : <Lensman> (Lensman scores a Niven reference...)
2014-06-07 14:13:25 : <NickE> back
2014-06-07 14:13:41 : <NickE> evenin peeps
2014-06-07 14:13:58 : <Lensman> Welcome Nick.
2014-06-07 14:19:38 : <NickE> well that killed whatever was being discussed :-)
2014-06-07 14:19:39 : "Hippy" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 14:19:49 : <NickE> yo!
2014-06-07 14:19:58 : <fredskuentz> ho hippy
waves politely
2014-06-07 14:20:08 : <NickE> heh
2014-06-07 14:20:22 : <Hippy> Nice topic, Fred
2014-06-07 14:20:42 : <fredskuentz> LOL, left over from last month I'm afraid
2014-06-07 14:21:43 : <Hippy> Oh. Well, mind if I change it?
2014-06-07 14:22:17 : <Lensman> Be our guest.
2014-06-07 14:22:29 : <Hippy> Oh, hi Lens!
The autodoc of Doctor Moreau
2014-06-07 14:23:23 : <NickE> grrn - just seen an iPad ad using the word 'verse but without it being a Firefly reference!!! Sacrelige!!!
2014-06-07 14:23:31 : <Hippy> I didn't see you there - not seeing too well today. I've got the font size up so high it's having mild gravitational effects
2014-06-07 14:23:41 : <NickE> thats our bloody contraction Apple!!!
2014-06-07 14:23:50 : <Lensman> Dang it.
2014-06-07 14:24:35 : <Hippy> I've just seen the word 'sacrilege' spelt 'sacrelige'. I ask you...
2014-06-07 14:25:06 : <Lensman> A typo? Sacriledge!
2014-06-07 14:25:23 : <fredskuentz> The auto of Doctor Moreau
2014-06-07 14:25:26 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 14:25:34 : <NickE> look i nvr make toping mistooks
2014-06-07 14:25:44 : <Hippy> Well, yes, I suppose that was a bit unfair of me, considering how many typos I'll probably make today
2014-06-07 14:26:48 : <Lensman> Hippy, pls take pity on me and remind me (once again) how you get a "message" to display here.
2014-06-07 14:27:20 : <Hippy> You type /me <space> the message
2014-06-07 14:27:29 : <Lensman> English been beddy beddy good to me.
has just explained how to do an action
2014-06-07 14:27:38 : "Jim" joined the channel.
gives Hippy a "Clear Ether!"
2014-06-07 14:27:52 : <Hippy> Hi, Jim!
2014-06-07 14:27:55 : <Lensman> Ah, thanks.
says 'Hi Jim'
2014-06-07 14:28:03 : "Snowball" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 14:28:05 : <Jim> hi
2014-06-07 14:28:14 : <fredskuentz> why did I get a star?
2014-06-07 14:28:14 : <NickE> welcome
2014-06-07 14:28:18 : <Snowball> Afternoo
2014-06-07 14:28:23 : <Hippy> You can also customise 'slaps' but I think there is only the default one here
2014-06-07 14:28:44 : <Hippy> Nope, that didn't work. Ah, well
2014-06-07 14:28:51 : <Snowball> x
2014-06-07 14:28:53 : <fredskuentz> Oh, I'm still in moderator mode from last month, hah
2014-06-07 14:29:07 : <andy> hi Snowball
2014-06-07 14:29:23 : <Lensman> I see a star in front of all the "messages", Fred.
2014-06-07 14:29:26 : <Hippy> Hi, Snowball
2014-06-07 14:30:01 : <Lensman> I think the subject should be "Typos for fun and profit."
2014-06-07 14:30:06 : "Dan" joined the channel.
assumes Snowball is named after the pig in Animal Farm
2014-06-07 14:30:30 : <Dan> Hiya, folks!
2014-06-07 14:30:31 : <Hippy> Hi, Dan, you (hopefully) ebook-published author!
2014-06-07 14:31:11 : <NickE> Hi Dan o published one
2014-06-07 14:31:11 : <Lensman> All Niven fen are equal, but some are more equal than others.
2014-06-07 14:31:13 : "Snowball" left the channel.
2014-06-07 14:31:14 : <Dan> There will be several varieties of e-book, as well as the trade paperback version.
2014-06-07 14:31:19 : <Hippy> Well, Lens, you can change the topic by typing /topic #knownspace followed by that sentence
2014-06-07 14:31:53 : <Lensman> Yes, but I thought it would be impolite to do so without asking.
2014-06-07 14:32:06 : <Hippy> Cool. I may get both for autograph purposes
2014-06-07 14:32:21 : <Dan> I don't know how far along the manuscript is in the publishing process. All my publisher told me is that it is "in production."
2014-06-07 14:32:42 : <Lensman> Dan, will you get galleys?
2014-06-07 14:32:52 : <Hippy> Ah...well, here's to Christmas 2020
2014-06-07 14:33:06 : <Lensman> :) Hopefully not.
2014-06-07 14:33:49 : <Lensman> And I'm confused... I thought Dan was already a published author.
2014-06-07 14:33:53 : <Dan> I'm working on the next book now. Co-writing one with Stephanie. She's got the outline, notes, and 50 or 60 pages of the beginning of the manuscript already done.
2014-06-07 14:35:08 : <sean> That was damn good.
2014-06-07 14:35:43 : <Dan> Lens, I've got a short story in a collection that came out a couple of years back, another that got bumpped out of the collection it had been accepted for, and a collection of my spaceport bar stories has been accepted & is in the production stages right now.
AFK for lager
2014-06-07 14:36:31 : <Dan> I'll get galley proofs in the near-ish future, I believe.
2014-06-07 14:37:13 : <Dan> I'll meet up with my publisher at LibertyCon in a couple of weeks.
2014-06-07 14:37:32 : <Lensman> Well, here's hoping "near-ish future" doesn't mean "Real soon now". :)
2014-06-07 14:38:54 : <Dan> LOL! It just means that I don't know how long it takes to push a manuscript through all the steps. From what I know, it's in the 2nd step after being accepted.
2014-06-07 14:39:34 : <Lensman> They were joking on a panel at ConQuesT (only a couple of weeks ago) how e-books didn't really work for autograph purposes. "Well, you -can- autograph the Kindle screen..."
2014-06-07 14:40:35 : <Lensman> If you use a permanent marker!
2014-06-07 14:40:38 : <Dan> Stephanie says that there is an ap for e-book readers that allows an autograph to be attached to the metadata of an e-book.
2014-06-07 14:41:30 : <Dan> Sort of like adding a JPG of an autograph to the e-book itself.
2014-06-07 14:41:55 : <Lensman> Interesting, but it wouldn't be unique. Anyone could copy it.
2014-06-07 14:42:01 : <Dan> Or at least, that's the way I understand it. I'd have to see it in action before I could be sure.
2014-06-07 14:42:46 : <Lensman> Altho I suppose the author could personalize and date it, to make it semi-unique.
2014-06-07 14:42:52 : <Hippy> I foresee many autographs in the future. I do recall the story of one fan who simply wrote his own autographs, faking the author's signature in his ooks
2014-06-07 14:43:29 : <NickE> was that a Pterry refernce :-)
2014-06-07 14:43:33 : <Lensman> If you cheat, you haven't won.
2014-06-07 14:43:36 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 14:43:39 : <NickE> ook ook :-)
2014-06-07 14:43:50 : <Dan> I'm told that I need to develop an autograph that doesn't look anything like my legal signature, so as to prevent the autograph from being of any use to a forger.
2014-06-07 14:44:30 : <sean> thats something I never thought of.
2014-06-07 14:44:40 : <Hippy> There's so little checking of signatures these days that it hardly matters, Dan
2014-06-07 14:44:59 : <fredskuentz> yeah, none
2014-06-07 14:45:16 : <fredskuentz> try just scrawling anything at the supermarket
2014-06-07 14:45:20 : <fredskuentz> or making an X
2014-06-07 14:45:21 : <fredskuentz> works fine
2014-06-07 14:45:27 : <Dan> Given that no two credit card readers can allow a good signature, I agree.
2014-06-07 14:45:32 : <Lensman> A recent (current?) Secretary of the Treasury's signature was simply a series of loops (no exaggeration). They told him he really needed to develop something more recognizable, for signing documents...
2014-06-07 14:46:00 : <Hippy> And for currency
2014-06-07 14:46:11 : <Hippy> He's the current one, I think
2014-06-07 14:46:18 : <Lensman> Dan: I've often wondered how many people use their legal signature for autograph purposes. My guess is that a lot of them do, but I don't know.
2014-06-07 14:46:31 : <sean> my finger is still killing me. dropped 27' pontoon boat and trailer on it tuesday.
2014-06-07 14:46:47 : <Hippy> Oh, yeah. Can someone interpret this for me? "The Three Stooges: Barack, Nancy and Harry'" Who is Harry?
2014-06-07 14:46:58 : <sean> typing hurts so i think i will head to the river
2014-06-07 14:47:03 : <sean> enjoy
2014-06-07 14:47:09 : <Lensman> For the signature which appears on U.S. paper currency, yes.
2014-06-07 14:47:22 : <fredskuentz> Harry Reid
2014-06-07 14:47:25 : <Dan> Most sign something that a barely legible scribble as an autograph. The alternative is some pretty printing that doesn't resemble a real signature.
2014-06-07 14:47:32 : <Hippy> Mine got bitten by some horrible American thing, and was killing me none too softly yesterday
2014-06-07 14:48:03 : <Hippy> Thanks, Fred. Who might he be?
2014-06-07 14:48:09 : <Lensman> Hmmm, well "Barely legibile scribble" certainly describes Larry's!
will admin for you, sean
2014-06-07 14:48:37 : <fredskuentz> Harry Mason Reid is a senior United States Senator from Nevada and a member of the Democratic Party serving since 1987
2014-06-07 14:48:55 : <Lensman> Harry Reid... minority leader in the House of Reps?
2014-06-07 14:49:21 : <Hippy> Ah, that's what I thought, Lens
2014-06-07 14:49:38 : <Hippy> It makes the bumper sticker make sense
2014-06-07 14:49:47 : <sean> harry reid is the senate majority leader
2014-06-07 14:50:01 : <Hippy> Sorry for that digression. Return to your regualrly scheduled programmes
2014-06-07 14:50:46 : <Lensman> Harry Harrison's is absolutely, totally illegible. But then, so is mine...
2014-06-07 14:51:44 : <fredskuentz> Yay me!
2014-06-07 14:52:14 : <Hippy> Fred Kuentz and the @ of Doom
2014-06-07 14:52:17 : <Dan> I see from Steph's outline that one of the things I'll need to write early in the manuscript is a love scene... Oh boy, that'll be a challenge to overcome.
2014-06-07 14:52:50 : <Dan> I usually have those happen off-stage.
2014-06-07 14:53:01 : <Hippy> You mean 'overcome' in the loosest possible sense, right?
2014-06-07 14:53:42 : <Hippy> 32 minutes before my first puerile joke - not bad
2014-06-07 14:54:01 : <Dan> I mean that I usually set up that sort of scene with some romantic dialog, then draw the curtain and let the reader supply their own details.
2014-06-07 14:54:34 : <Hippy> And Stephanie is saying that's not enough nowadays?
2014-06-07 14:54:36 : "dmac" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 14:54:44 : <Hippy> Hi, dmac!
2014-06-07 14:54:45 : <dmac> Hi guys.
2014-06-07 14:55:04 : <NickE> just don't 50 shades it !
2014-06-07 14:55:11 : <Lensman> "Do you like what you doth see...?" said the voluptuous elf-maiden as she provocatively parted the folds of her robe to reveal the rounded, shadowy glories within. Frito's throat was dry, though his head reeled with desire and ale.
2014-06-07 14:55:32 : <NickE> heheh Bored regf
2014-06-07 14:55:34 : <NickE> ref
2014-06-07 14:55:36 : <Lensman> She slipped off the flimsy garment and strode toward the fascinated boggie unashamed of her nakedness. She ran a perfect hand along his hairy toes, and he helplessly watched them curl with the fierce insistent wanting of her.
2014-06-07 14:55:40 : <Dan> Well, she's not saying anything about it, but there are love scenes in the other books of the series whose level of detail I'll be expected to match, LOL!
2014-06-07 14:55:59 : <Lensman> "Let me make thee more comfortable," she whispered hoarsely, fiddling with the clasps of his jerkin, loosening his sword belt with a laugh. "Touch me, oh touch me," she crooned.
2014-06-07 14:56:03 : <dmac> Not sure what I jumped into but it is different.
2014-06-07 14:56:20 : <NickE> Bored of teh Rings
2014-06-07 14:56:22 : <Lensman> Frito's hand, as though of its own will, reached out and traced the delicate swelling of her elf-breast, while the other slowly crept around her tiny, flawless waist, crushing her to his barrel chest.
2014-06-07 14:56:30 : <dmac> thx
2014-06-07 14:56:34 : <NickE> funniest parody Harvard ever did IMO
2014-06-07 14:56:43 : <Lensman> "Toes, I love hairy toes," she moaned, forcing him down on the silvered carpet. Her tiny pink toes caressed the luxuriant fur of his instep while Frito's nose sought out the warmth of her precious elf-navel.
2014-06-07 14:56:44 : <Hippy> Ah, an ebook of it. Cool!
2014-06-07 14:57:01 : <Dan> Intro page from "Bored of the Rings." A scene that happens nowhere in the book, but is the first thing the reader sees before reaching the title page.
2014-06-07 14:57:13 : <Lensman> "But I'm so small and hairy, and...and you're so -beautiful-," Frito whimpered, slipping clumsily out of his crossed garters.
2014-06-07 14:57:25 : <dmac> good marketing
2014-06-07 14:57:31 : <Lensman> The elf-maiden said nothing, but only sighed deep in her throat and held him more firmly to her faunlike body. "There is one thing you must do for me first," she whispered into one tufted ear.
2014-06-07 14:58:00 : <Lensman> ...[end quote] There's some inspiration for you, Dan.
2014-06-07 14:58:07 : <NickE> :-)
2014-06-07 14:58:22 : <Hippy> Egad...
2014-06-07 14:58:44 : <Hippy> Dan, you could make it between two aliens whose anatomy is so obscure that the scene makes no sense
2014-06-07 14:58:47 : <andy> Inspiration to create something that his co-author will no doubt insist gets replaced, I'm sure.
2014-06-07 14:58:49 : <Dan> Somehow a love scene between Nicola Tesla and a female alien wouldn't read quite like that, I suspect.
2014-06-07 14:59:00 : <fredskuentz> ONE MINUTE TO THE OFFICIAL START OF CHAT
2014-06-07 14:59:04 : <Lensman> dmac: Dan said he was expected to write a love scene for his current collaboration.
2014-06-07 14:59:26 : <Jim> Nicola Tesla died a virgin.
2014-06-07 14:59:38 : <dmac> Good source material.
2014-06-07 14:59:43 : <Hippy>, I'm not going to say it
2014-06-07 15:00:07 : <fredskuentz> In SANCTUARY, Tesla was something of a ladies' man
2014-06-07 15:00:12 : <fredskuentz> but then, he was also Dracula
2014-06-07 15:00:13 : <Dan> Thankfully, the word structure the Tesla character uses is fairly close to what I'd use in a romantic scene in a steampunk story.
2014-06-07 15:00:19 : <dmac> So, Telsa's capacitor never lost its charge?
2014-06-07 15:00:34 : <Lensman> From "Galaxy Quest": "Oh... that's not -right-!"
2014-06-07 15:00:37 : <Jim> yup
2014-06-07 15:01:14 : <Dan> Jim, this *IS* supposed to be a work of fiction, LOL! Biographical info will be useful, but not a straightjacket.
2014-06-07 15:01:33 : <NickE> oh now your just getting kinky
flashes an evil grin.
2014-06-07 15:02:17 : <Lensman> I can't say I've read a lot of Harvard Lampoon parodies, but of those I've read, BORED OF THE RINGS is the only one I'd recommend, and I'd recommend that quite heartily.
2014-06-07 15:02:27 : <NickE> yup
2014-06-07 15:02:50 : <Hippy> The map is really good
2014-06-07 15:03:06 : <NickE> and frankly after reading it, you don't need to bother with Tolkein
2014-06-07 15:03:07 : <Dan> I have read my paperback copy many, many times, but I found a hardback copy in a charity shop in England.
2014-06-07 15:03:10 : <Hippy> The rest is a bit dated, but of course it is an old book
2014-06-07 15:03:21 : <fredskuentz> It helps that BORED was done decades ago, when the Lampoon was actually funny.
2014-06-07 15:03:34 : <NickE> The Tiny X Shaoed Forest
2014-06-07 15:03:45 : <NickE> agreed Fred
2014-06-07 15:04:22 : <NickE> The Land of the People withe teh Medium Sized Teeth
2014-06-07 15:04:49 : <NickE> dated, yes, still funny, hell yes
2014-06-07 15:04:55 : <Hippy> You could probably say that in Sindarin
2014-06-07 15:05:03 : <Lensman> Hardback? I didn't even know there was one.
2014-06-07 15:05:24 : <Dan> Yep, surprised me to see it, but it does exist.
2014-06-07 15:05:32 : <NickE> Its still in print in teh UK I think
2014-06-07 15:05:36 : <Dan> Cost me 50 pence.
2014-06-07 15:05:52 : <NickE> they brought out a new hardback when the films were big
2014-06-07 15:06:04 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 15:06:22 : <fredskuentz> hardcover bored
2014-06-07 15:06:23 : <fredskuentz> US$ 3,289.45
2014-06-07 15:07:08 : <Hippy> Holy crap!
2014-06-07 15:07:13 : <fredskuentz> ack
2014-06-07 15:07:17 : <fredskuentz> that's a mass market paper
2014-06-07 15:07:23 : <fredskuentz> the most expensive hardcover is US$ 865.20
2014-06-07 15:07:36 : <fredskuentz> now I have to figure out why the paper is so much more
2014-06-07 15:07:51 : <Hippy> Autographed? By JRRT?
2014-06-07 15:08:10 : "senax" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 15:08:24 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 15:08:24 : <Hippy> Hi, xenax
2014-06-07 15:08:32 : <fredskuentz> they've got TWO of them at that price
2014-06-07 15:08:36 : <senax> Hi everyone.
2014-06-07 15:09:00 : <dmac> Hi senax
2014-06-07 15:09:13 : <Hippy> I mean, senax
2014-06-07 15:09:16 : <fredskuentz> and they charge $4 more for shipping
2014-06-07 15:09:29 : <fredskuentz> they should bring it to me in an armoured car for that price
2014-06-07 15:09:49 : <Dan> And you should get to keep the armored car, too.
2014-06-07 15:09:49 : "Kevin" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 15:09:57 : <fredskuentz> kevin!
2014-06-07 15:10:00 : <Hippy> Hi, Kevin
2014-06-07 15:10:16 : <Kevin> hello!
2014-06-07 15:10:21 : <fredskuentz> Sean was reading (and quite enjoying) your book
2014-06-07 15:10:24 : <fredskuentz> and ... he just left
2014-06-07 15:10:26 : <fredskuentz> :\\
2014-06-07 15:10:30 : <Kevin> Nuts.
2014-06-07 15:10:32 : <Kevin> Which book was it?
waves at Kevin from across Tampa Bay!
2014-06-07 15:10:39 : <fredskuentz> the one larry liked
2014-06-07 15:10:51 : <fredskuentz> "Christians Beware"
2014-06-07 15:10:51 : <sean> hello, Kevin. Excellent story.
waves from Orlando
2014-06-07 15:10:54 : <fredskuentz> or whatever
2014-06-07 15:10:55 : <Kevin> Oh, "The Undead At War?" Awesome!
2014-06-07 15:10:58 : <Lensman> Well, I see Tolkien did die a few years after BORED was pubbed, so I suppose it's possible that there could be a non-forged autograph...
2014-06-07 15:11:00 : <Kevin> Thanks, Sean!
2014-06-07 15:11:00 : <fredskuentz> no, the new one
2014-06-07 15:11:11 : <fredskuentz> I had a link to that
2014-06-07 15:11:30 : <Kevin> Oh, "The Bones of an Angel"
2014-06-07 15:11:39 : <sean> the negative side of proof positive
2014-06-07 15:11:40 : <Kevin> Cool. I wasn't entirely sure I'd sold any copies of that one yet. <G>
2014-06-07 15:11:57 : <Kevin> oh, oh, oh. Ok, I'm up to speed now.
2014-06-07 15:12:09 : <Kevin> Yeah, I was very pleasantly surprised with how that one turned out.
2014-06-07 15:12:23 : <Kevin> And I'm utterly flummoxed by everyone's reaction to it.
2014-06-07 15:12:33 : <sean> He looked at the Bible and sneered. “Only Satan would use the New International Version!”
2014-06-07 15:12:43 : <sean> that cracked me up.
2014-06-07 15:13:06 : <Kevin> My kid got thrown out of a "King James Only" school a few months back. I have some unresolved issues, obviously....
2014-06-07 15:13:20 : <Dan> Enjoy it, Kevin. One of the perks of being a writer is meeting people who actually like your work.
2014-06-07 15:14:01 : <Kevin> Oh, I am. That doesn't make it any less stunning, though. And this is the 2nd one Mr. Niven has said he liked, which is beyond awesome.
2014-06-07 15:14:06 : <Lensman> Congratulations, Kevin. Does it feel like sweet revenge to get paid for working out those frustrations vicariously?
2014-06-07 15:14:12 : <sean> enjoy, everyone. heading down to the river.
2014-06-07 15:14:23 : <Dan> See you later, Sean!
2014-06-07 15:14:27 : <Kevin> By, Sean!
2014-06-07 15:14:30 : <dmac> bye
2014-06-07 15:14:37 : <Jim> bye
2014-06-07 15:14:41 : <Hippy> 'Bye
2014-06-07 15:14:46 : <Lensman> Bye
2014-06-07 15:14:50 : <senax> Bye Sean.
2014-06-07 15:14:51 : <Lensman> Clear ether!
2014-06-07 15:15:07 : <Kevin> LENSMAN! I haven't heard from you in a dog's age!
2014-06-07 15:15:08 : <Jim> Sunday is the Belmont Stakes
2014-06-07 15:15:33 : <Lensman> Kevin: Well, I have missed several chats. (Shame, shame!)
's betting ears prick up
2014-06-07 15:15:59 : "Larry" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 15:16:02 : <Dan> The best compliment I've ever received on a story was "I want you to write more of that one! What happened next?"
2014-06-07 15:16:03 : <Kevin> This is my first ever chat. I've never been able to make it work before. Fred held my hand through it.
2014-06-07 15:16:07 : <Lensman> Welcome Larry!
2014-06-07 15:16:13 : <Jim> Hi
2014-06-07 15:16:16 : <dmac> Hi Larry
2014-06-07 15:16:17 : <Dan> Hiya, Larry!
2014-06-07 15:16:19 : <Hippy> I couldn't even get a bet on for the Kentucky Derby, so this will be even harder to do
2014-06-07 15:16:25 : <Lensman> Then thank you Fred!
2014-06-07 15:16:26 : <senax> Hi Larry.
2014-06-07 15:16:26 : <Kevin> Greetings, Mr. Niven! Thank you very much for your kind words regarding my story!
2014-06-07 15:16:36 : <Hippy> Ooh, hi Larry!
2014-06-07 15:17:09 : <Larry> Helo all. happy to meet you, Kevin.
2014-06-07 15:17:16 : <fredskuentz> Good afternoon, Larry
2014-06-07 15:17:31 : <fredskuentz> Kevin, you should probably explain to Larry what you're talking about :)
2014-06-07 15:18:34 : <Larry> gentlefolk, "Gor Walks Into a Bar" is with my agent. She loves it and has plans for it. Thanks to all.
2014-06-07 15:18:47 : <fredskuentz> Excellent news.
2014-06-07 15:18:50 : <Dan> LOL! That's great, Larry!
2014-06-07 15:19:01 : <Kevin> Oh. Sorry. The other day you posted a comment on my website saying you enjoyed my story where a Baptist guy finds proof of God's existence, which results in the destruction of the universe.
2014-06-07 15:19:07 : <Kevin> Thanks for that!
2014-06-07 15:19:25 : <Kevin> Congtrats on "Gor" as well!
2014-06-07 15:20:11 : <Hippy> Hang on. God walks into a bar?
2014-06-07 15:20:22 : <Hippy> Was 'Gor' a typo?
2014-06-07 15:20:28 : "ronn" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 15:20:36 : <fredskuentz> Howdy Ronn
2014-06-07 15:20:39 : <Hippy> Hi, ronn!!
2014-06-07 15:20:39 : <Dan> Hiya, ronn.
2014-06-07 15:21:04 : <Jim> ronn~
2014-06-07 15:21:07 : <Kevin> Hey, Ron.
2014-06-07 15:21:50 : <Larry> interesting typo. I meant "God" of course. "God Walks Into a Bar".
2014-06-07 15:22:09 : <Larry> Kevin, good story, like I said.
2014-06-07 15:22:18 : <Hippy> Oh. Well, that's fantastic. And we saw it from the ground up!
2014-06-07 15:22:34 : <Dan> Yeah, the only "Gor" I'm aware of is the series by John Norman, LOL!
2014-06-07 15:23:07 : <andy> Dan: there's apparently a movie loosed based around novel(s), which is reported to be horrible.
2014-06-07 15:23:17 : <Lensman> Thanks. I admit I was having trouble adjusting my view of the Universe to include Larry putting "Gor" in a story title...
2014-06-07 15:23:17 : <Hippy> Yeah...though there is a 'Gor's Saga' on TV, based on something. A man-gorilla hybrid
2014-06-07 15:23:27 : <Kevin> I vaguely remember it. 80s Cannon film or something.
2014-06-07 15:23:47 : <Dan> Well, there is a heavy element of BDSM in the books. That's be a difficult fit for Vanilla audiences.
2014-06-07 15:23:58 : <Lensman> I was surprised to stumble across a reference to "Gorean" subculture in a story. Apparently there is a cult...
2014-06-07 15:24:44 : <Lensman> Yeah, a subgroup of the BDSM subculture.
2014-06-07 15:25:00 : <andy> It's on NetFlix; I've never been brave enough (or stupid enough) to watch it.
2014-06-07 15:25:05 : <Kevin> Gor cult isn't too surprising. I kind of always assumed they were written for BDSM people anyway.
2014-06-07 15:25:15 : <Dan> I have to remember to ask my neighbor Gloria if she's familiar with the series.
2014-06-07 15:26:40 : <Hippy> Such neighbours you have
2014-06-07 15:26:43 : <Larry> My collaborators Steven and Jerry were urging me to write a story saving the surfer from LUCIFER'S HAMMER.
2014-06-07 15:27:05 : <Lensman> So, you'd think with God being omniscient and all, he'd duck instead...
2014-06-07 15:27:12 : <Kevin> "Lucifer's Hammer II: The Second Wave!"
2014-06-07 15:27:13 : <Dan> Gloria Brame, she's rather famous for her books on human sexuality.
2014-06-07 15:27:18 : <Lensman> ...or will the bar away...
2014-06-07 15:27:31 : <Hippy> So, anyway, assume we have Carlos Wu's autodoc to hand and we put a dog in there. The machine thinks: "This man is horribly injured!" So what comes out of the lid in a couple of months?
2014-06-07 15:27:36 : <Larry> I donj't want him saved. Whoever died in that book died for a reason. But, I thought, what about a ghost story?
2014-06-07 15:27:57 : <Larry> I'm working on it now. It'll be a collab with Jerry, of course.
2014-06-07 15:28:24 : <Dan> As I recall Larry, no one in the book ever witnessed the surfer actually die.
2014-06-07 15:28:34 : <andy> do we just get one ghost, a handful, or does everyone who died in the disaster become a ghost?
2014-06-07 15:28:41 : <andy> Because that last possibility is pretty crazy!
2014-06-07 15:28:41 : <Kevin> Excepting the author, who just said he died....
2014-06-07 15:28:46 : <ronn> Hippy: One of Al Reynold's Diamond Dogs?
2014-06-07 15:28:48 : <dmac> Great question Hippy!
2014-06-07 15:28:53 : <Lensman> Hippy: I'm glad Larry's mind doesn't work like yours. *Shudder*
2014-06-07 15:29:36 : <Hippy> That was to explain the topic. Now move on....
2014-06-07 15:29:44 : <Kevin> Everyone who got eaten in the book is now a ghost, and they're PISSED!
2014-06-07 15:29:55 : <Dan> Every writer is entitled to have second thoughts about something in a previous book, if a better idea comes to mind later on. :)
2014-06-07 15:29:59 : <ronn> Thanks, all, for the greetings. This is shaping up to be one of those sessions . . .
2014-06-07 15:30:01 : <Hippy> That's a good one, Kevin!
2014-06-07 15:30:06 : <NickE> (back - had to nip out for minor lack of ice emergency :-)
2014-06-07 15:30:15 : <Kevin> @ Hippy: Thankee
2014-06-07 15:30:27 : <Hippy> Anyway, the surfer's death is too poetic to be undone
2014-06-07 15:30:31 : <Larry> Yes, hippy, great question. I picture one of the folk from "There's a Wolf in my Time Machine!"
2014-06-07 15:30:53 : <Hippy> Oh, yeah!
2014-06-07 15:30:53 : <Kevin> Wouldn't an autodoc recognize that this wasn't human DNA?
2014-06-07 15:30:55 : <ronn> Kevin: If they'd been *eaten* wouldn't they more likely be, um, "pooped"?
2014-06-07 15:31:06 : <Kevin> Point taken, Ronn
2014-06-07 15:31:39 : <Lensman> Ah, a werewolf shape is much less gruesome than I was imagining.
2014-06-07 15:32:16 : <Larry> ronn, maybe I'll use that. I already have a character.
2014-06-07 15:32:17 : <Hippy> Well, in the future they might have DNA-altering weapons that would need fixing, but I suspect it actually, hang on. The machine had to be programmed for Kzinti, humans and Puppeteers, so it could only choose from thsoe three, and would take the closest match
2014-06-07 15:32:22 : <Hippy> I assume
2014-06-07 15:32:24 : <Kevin> It could look perfectly human on the outside, but be utterly foreign on the inside, like the soldiers in Scalzi's "Old Man" series.
2014-06-07 15:32:36 : <ronn> Lensman: A hairless dog with a human head?
2014-06-07 15:32:43 : <NickE> (crikey - missd a lot Hi Larry, Kevin, Jim, Ronn, Frank um everyne else whos joined)
2014-06-07 15:32:59 : <fredskuentz> Unless we assume the Hindmost lied, the autodoc won't work at all except on standard issue human and Kzin and puppeteer
2014-06-07 15:32:59 : <ronn> Hi, Nick!
2014-06-07 15:33:14 : <Kevin> That woudl be Anubis, whouldn't it? Dog-headed man-god?
2014-06-07 15:33:22 : <fredskuentz> not even on Ringworld natives, much less dogs
2014-06-07 15:33:34 : <ronn> Fred: isn't the first part of that sentencce a given?
2014-06-07 15:33:44 : <fredskuentz> of course it seems safest to assume that theh Hindmost is lying if his mouths are moving
2014-06-07 15:33:50 : <fredskuentz> or what Ronn said
2014-06-07 15:33:57 : <fredskuentz> even if he stepped on my punchline
2014-06-07 15:33:59 : <fredskuentz> :D
2014-06-07 15:34:02 : <Kevin> and if you put a dog in a puppeteer autodoc, you'd end up with a multiple-headed Cerberus kinda' thing...
2014-06-07 15:34:08 : <ronn> sorry
2014-06-07 15:34:10 : <Lensman> ronn: No. More like one of the slimy intermediate transformation stages from "A Werewolf in London".
2014-06-07 15:34:17 : <andy> Kevin: IIRC, Colonial Forces regular soldiers in "Old Man's War" were humanoid but green-skinned and cat-eyed but *mostly* human internally; Gamerans were highly modified and didn't appear humanoid but still had human brains. Unless you're talking about some of the alien species?
2014-06-07 15:34:22 : <Lensman> Barf-bag FX scene.
2014-06-07 15:34:28 : <NickE> heh
2014-06-07 15:35:04 : <fredskuentz> given that the autodoc seems to be DNA based, and can work on (at least) 3 wildly divergent species, you'd think it could handle anything
2014-06-07 15:35:15 : <fredskuentz> I mean, it can turn a Protector human
2014-06-07 15:35:20 : <Kevin> We're told that their human appearance is increasingly just cosmetic, and more and more of their DNA is replaced by alien stuff that's more funcitonal, or re-engineered for efficiency.
2014-06-07 15:35:29 : <Lensman> The problem with the dog transformed into a humanoid is, even if it's given a human brain... it still has the memories and habits of a dog. Of course, a good author would take that as the basis for a good story...
2014-06-07 15:35:30 : <Hippy> Good point, Fred
2014-06-07 15:35:49 : <Kevin> A protector IS human, the autodoc was just resetting the clock.
2014-06-07 15:35:52 : <dmac> Wouldn't puppeteers/humans/kzin loose any impants they might have? No more tasp.
2014-06-07 15:35:56 : <Lensman> The people in "There's a Wolf in My Time Machine" were fully intelligent, unlike the dog.
2014-06-07 15:36:18 : <andy> fredskuentz: you're assuming it doesn't need considerable pre-programming (since Protector DNA is human DNA...or at least Australopithecene DNA which would be pretty close).
2014-06-07 15:36:24 : <Dan> "Arthur, would you please stop sniffing my butt?"
2014-06-07 15:36:25 : <fredskuentz> why would a protector's clock reset to 'breeder'?
2014-06-07 15:36:26 : <Dan> :)
2014-06-07 15:36:42 : <Hippy> This is fun, it's moving too fast for me to read :)
2014-06-07 15:36:45 : <ronn> I used to have a Cerberus inaction figure (among other stuff) on top of the monitor: one of the disadvantages of flat screens . . .
2014-06-07 15:36:56 : <Kevin> I always assumed the Autodoc reset people to their optimum health. For humans, that's in your late teens, early 20s.
2014-06-07 15:37:04 : <Lensman> Well no, I wouldn't think the CarlosDoc could handle anything. If it could, it wouldn't have needed to be programmed specifically to handle Kzinti and Puppeteers.
2014-06-07 15:37:25 : <Kevin> So if a Protector is essentially an elderly would reset it to breeder.
2014-06-07 15:37:43 : <ronn> (No place to put knick-knacks (or the remote) on top of the TV, either . ..
2014-06-07 15:38:09 : <Dan> Wasn't it the Hindmost who decided whether Louis would be rebuilt as Protector-stage or Breeded-stage human?
2014-06-07 15:38:13 : <Hippy> And altering the brain ("I've lost my mind") so a dog's brain would be rebuilt to human standards
2014-06-07 15:38:17 : <Lensman> dmac: Yes, it would lose the tasp. As Speaker lost his scars.
2014-06-07 15:38:25 : <fredskuentz> Dan, yes, I'd say the 'doc wasn't on automatic
2014-06-07 15:38:33 : <ronn> . . . though I've often thought on top of the old console TV cabinet would be a convenient place to put a flat-screen TV.
2014-06-07 15:38:40 : <Dan> *Breeder-stage* rather. Bloody damn typos...
2014-06-07 15:38:42 : <Kevin> I imagine a doc could re-insert the tasp, if asked to do so.
2014-06-07 15:39:13 : <ronn> "Breeded-stage" = pregnant?
2014-06-07 15:39:19 : <fredskuentz> remember we have different types of docs too
2014-06-07 15:39:32 : <Lensman> Dan: Yes, Hindmost had a sophisticated ability to program the CarlosDoc. But the scenario in question is the CarlosDoc mistaking a dog for a human.
2014-06-07 15:39:38 : <fredskuentz> the doc in RINGWORLD wasn't a Carlos Wu model
2014-06-07 15:39:56 : <Hippy> No
2014-06-07 15:40:00 : <Kevin> Ok, here's a question: Let's say you're diabetic, and you go in an autodoc. The autodoc rebuilds you from your DNA up, BUT your DNA has a potentially faltal flaw. So does it fix it, or just follow the basic flawed blueprint it had to work with?
2014-06-07 15:40:10 : <fredskuentz> The CarlosDoc does seem to make some odd assumptions
2014-06-07 15:40:20 : <fredskuentz> like height based on local graviity
2014-06-07 15:40:21 : <Lensman> No, the CarlosDoc showed up in RINGWORLD ENGINEERS and sequels.
2014-06-07 15:40:43 : <Hippy> It probably fixes it. It altered Beowulf Shaeffer's physique to Fafnir standard
2014-06-07 15:40:47 : <fredskuentz> you'd think Beywolf would have ended up with a ridiculously oversized head
2014-06-07 15:40:58 : <fredskuentz> like a Gerry Anderson puppet
2014-06-07 15:41:32 : <Hippy> I don't think it was in RE, Lens
2014-06-07 15:41:35 : <Kevin> I though his height was based on his DNA. He had the DNA for a 5'10" guy, but he grew up on a low-gravity world, where he was abnormally tall. The Doc fixed that. Of course a friend re-read it and said his height was based on the thing only having space to build a 5'10" guy inside.
2014-06-07 15:41:40 : <Hippy> RT, yes
2014-06-07 15:41:46 : <fredskuentz> Hippy, Lens is right
2014-06-07 15:41:47 : <Larry> no, the 'doc would have worked with the original head. Not oversized.
2014-06-07 15:42:15 : <fredskuentz> Larry, wouldn't a 7 foot tall person have a large head for a smaller body?
2014-06-07 15:42:23 : <Lensman> Hippy: NO! The CarlosDoc altered Bey's height because the body cavity was built specifically to fit Carlos Wu. Obviously Hindmost did a lot of modifications to the CarlosDoc, to allow it to heal Kzinti and Puppeteers.
2014-06-07 15:42:25 : <Hippy> Oh...well, okay....
2014-06-07 15:42:26 : <fredskuentz> Like Ted Cassidy?
2014-06-07 15:42:44 : <fredskuentz> Lens, no, Bey said it built him for local gravity
2014-06-07 15:42:45 : <Kevin> Ted Cassidy was acromegalic. Different rules apply.
2014-06-07 15:42:48 : <Larry> Not smaller, Fred. Shorter. Bey was lean.
2014-06-07 15:42:53 : <fredskuentz> k
2014-06-07 15:43:03 : <fredskuentz> I of course defer to Larry :)
2014-06-07 15:43:23 : <fredskuentz> Kevin has a good point though. Diabetes is currently considered to be genetic.
2014-06-07 15:43:41 : <fredskuentz> Would a CarlosDoc assume that it's therefore correct?
2014-06-07 15:43:41 : <Lensman> As far as "curing" a genetic disease... it just depends on whether it was programmed to do that or not. And if it was, then it would only have a list of specific genetic diseases to cure. Anything not on that list, it surely would leave alone. Which is why it turns a protector back to breeder stage.
2014-06-07 15:43:54 : <ronn> Fred: all of it? both types?
2014-06-07 15:43:56 : <Dan> Oh dear! I just had an image of Jinxians being re-built to Flatlander-norm specs, and paying extra for it like it was an amusement park ride...
2014-06-07 15:43:57 : <Hippy> That's because we haven't identified the Gypsy curse
2014-06-07 15:43:58 : <Kevin> Human heads are generally head sized, there's not a MASSIVE lot of difference under normal circumstances. Hence midgets have what appear to be disproportionately large heads, but they're the same size a s a normal persons, just on a small body. Likewise, my 6'7" brother in law wears a hatsize smaller than mine.
2014-06-07 15:44:05 : <fredskuentz> ronn, type 2 is
2014-06-07 15:44:12 : <fredskuentz> type 1 is unrelated to type 2
2014-06-07 15:44:16 : <Larry> yeah, I'd guess the diabetic would keep the tendency. Healthy when he comes out, though.
2014-06-07 15:44:21 : <Lensman> Oops... I just directly contradicted myself. Oh well, "I am large, I contain multitudes."
2014-06-07 15:44:25 : <fredskuentz> I don't know if it's also genetic or not
2014-06-07 15:45:21 : <Kevin> Fine, fine, pick another genetic disease. Albinism. Sickle Cell Anemia. Ulcerative Collitis, mange, whatever.
2014-06-07 15:45:30 : <Hippy> Of course, the doc was built with 400 years of eugenics-type legislation in mind.
2014-06-07 15:45:36 : <fredskuentz> gout is the same stupid malfunctioning gene as type 2 diabetes
2014-06-07 15:45:40 : <ronn> And then let's suppose Bey's head had been put in an autodoc originally built for, say, Peter Dinklage . . .
2014-06-07 15:45:44 : <Lensman> Pretty sure Bey was still an albino when he came out.
2014-06-07 15:45:45 : <Kevin> Would it fix it - is there a genetic 'patch' - or just leave it as is?
2014-06-07 15:46:00 : <Dan> Perhaps we'd better be careful not to damage the playground equipment, LOL!
2014-06-07 15:46:18 : <Kevin> If he was still an albino, then that answers the question.
2014-06-07 15:46:26 : <fredskuentz> I can't imagine how thoroughly you have to rework a Carlos sized doc to fit a kzin
2014-06-07 15:46:27 : <Lensman> You really can't compare the CarlosDoc as originally built with the Puppeteer-redesigned one. Two different animals.
2014-06-07 15:46:37 : <fredskuentz> seems like it would be easier to start over
2014-06-07 15:46:37 : <Kevin> Anybody wanna' ask Mr. Niven if Bey was still an Albino?
2014-06-07 15:46:58 : <fredskuentz> Mr. Niven, was Bey still an albino?
2014-06-07 15:47:05 : <Hippy> That was rather obliquely put, Kevin
2014-06-07 15:47:06 : <Dan> :)
2014-06-07 15:47:32 : <Hippy> Hang on, if he ws, Sharrol would've recognised him
2014-06-07 15:47:33 : <Kevin> @ Hippy: I'm new here.
2014-06-07 15:47:36 : <Larry> I remember. He came out an albino, had to work around the sunlight problem.
2014-06-07 15:48:02 : <Kevin> He did stay in the doc all day, and only came out at night...
2014-06-07 15:48:06 : <Lensman> Is dwarfism a genetic disease. It's a misdevelopment during growth of the fetus. Maybe it's a result of something bad happening with enzymes in the womb, not a flaw in the DNA.
2014-06-07 15:48:13 : <Hippy> Okay, so the doc works with the existing DNA
2014-06-07 15:48:25 : <fredskuentz> so do we consider albinoism a malfunction?
2014-06-07 15:48:43 : <Hippy> The Fertility Board did
2014-06-07 15:48:50 : <fredskuentz> yeah
2014-06-07 15:48:54 : <fredskuentz> not very PC of them
2014-06-07 15:49:12 : <Kevin> Yeah, it's got to be. There's all kinds of secondary health problems attendent upon Albinism, some of 'em serious.
2014-06-07 15:49:17 : <Hippy> Due to Puppeteer inteference, maybe
2014-06-07 15:49:31 : <Dan> But it is forced to work within the size of the original "shelf-space" Carlos built into it. The Puppeteer-modded version obviously has a variable-gemetry interior space.
2014-06-07 15:49:33 : <fredskuentz> another reason for making a smaller Bey might have been the amount of available raw material
2014-06-07 15:49:43 : <fredskuentz> he didn't put a 7 foot tall guy in the intake hopper
2014-06-07 15:49:44 : <Lensman> Albanism wasn't considered a handicap on WeMadeIt. It was on Earth.
2014-06-07 15:50:05 : <Hippy> Why couldn't it make a tall Bey with his knees bent? Or a Puppeteer in fetal position?
2014-06-07 15:50:11 : <Kevin> Albinos generally have for-suck vision, which is a liability anywhere you go.
2014-06-07 15:50:12 : <Lensman> Bey is fully albino; he has red eyes if he doesn't take his pills.
2014-06-07 15:50:36 : <Hippy> It is when you're reading na IRC chat
2014-06-07 15:50:38 : <Kevin> They're vastly more likely to get skin cancer.
2014-06-07 15:51:00 : <fredskuentz> assuming skin cancer still exists
2014-06-07 15:51:01 : <Hippy> Not underground :)
2014-06-07 15:51:02 : <Kevin> Not to mention it being harder to hide in the bushes and avoid getting eaten by tigers.
2014-06-07 15:51:17 : <fredskuentz> assuming tigers still exist
2014-06-07 15:51:18 : <fredskuentz> :)
2014-06-07 15:51:25 : <Lensman> On WeMadeIt, everybody lives underground, so you don't get skin cancer. You'd still need to take pills to make your eyes work right.
2014-06-07 15:51:28 : <Larry> but he can see the albino tigers coming.
2014-06-07 15:51:29 : <ronn> AFAIK there are multiple types of dwarfism, while what used in non-PC days to be called "midgets" are something else entirely: basically normally-proportioned people who just never grew very tall.
2014-06-07 15:51:37 : <Dan> The Hive Mind is thinking quickly today! LOL!
2014-06-07 15:51:52 : <NickE> too quick fo rme
2014-06-07 15:51:53 : <Kevin> Skin cancer will always exist in that it's a malfunction resulting from outside forces. Cures will probably be plentiful and easy, though. Also, what star did We Made It orbit again?
2014-06-07 15:52:08 : <Hippy> And of course there's pygmyism, where the shortness gets inherited
2014-06-07 15:52:09 : <NickE> Procyon
2014-06-07 15:52:15 : <NickE> I think#
2014-06-07 15:52:27 : <Hippy> Yep
2014-06-07 15:52:31 : <fredskuentz> Procyon
2014-06-07 15:52:59 : <ronn> Albino? Dwarf? Reminds me that one of the local stations aired "Foul Play" multiple times during the past couple of weekends . . .
2014-06-07 15:53:06 : <fredskuentz> heh
AFK for refreshing (albino) lager
2014-06-07 15:53:13 : <NickE> I'd guess most forms of cancer would be treatable by commercial 'docs
2014-06-07 15:53:22 : <Lensman> Procyon A, yes. Just looked it up.
2014-06-07 15:54:05 : <NickE> and Tannin pills would make sunscreen largely unnecessary
2014-06-07 15:54:22 : <Dan> Have we any astronomers in the house? If so, e-mail me post-chat. I need to find an empty area od space 65 LY from Earth for some of my stories.
2014-06-07 15:54:26 : <Lensman> Yah, I think tannin pills would solve the skin cancer tendency.
2014-06-07 15:54:57 : "Kevin" left the channel.
2014-06-07 15:54:59 : "Inigo" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 15:55:07 : <fredskuentz> uh oh
2014-06-07 15:55:11 : <fredskuentz> we lost Kevin
2014-06-07 15:55:15 : <Lensman> afk for food
2014-06-07 15:55:26 : <Inigo> Kevin Long here. I got booted, and couldn't log in under my old nickname.
2014-06-07 15:55:27 : <Larry> ah, iced coffee. what have I missed? Reading back.
2014-06-07 15:55:31 : <fredskuentz> hah
2014-06-07 15:55:34 : <fredskuentz> welcome back
2014-06-07 15:55:35 : <andy> but we gained Inigo who seems to be coming from the same IP
2014-06-07 15:55:35 : <Dan> Kevin=Inigo.
2014-06-07 15:55:39 : <Inigo> I also tried "Kevin Long's Evil Twin" but that wouldn't work.
2014-06-07 15:55:45 : <NickE> heh
2014-06-07 15:56:02 : <fredskuentz> Larry, more of the same, wondering about autodocs and Bey and skin cancer
2014-06-07 15:56:05 : <andy> Inigo: we just lost you under "Kevin" before you got in, so try doing /nick Kevin and see if it works.
2014-06-07 15:56:08 : <ronn> Procyon A is about an F5 star (hotter than the Sun, more UV) that seems to have already evolved off the main sequence and is partway to the subgiant stage, so its luminosity class is often listed as "IV-V".
2014-06-07 15:56:17 : <Inigo> A friend of mine used to bill himself as "Jeff Lynne's Even More Evil Twin"
2014-06-07 15:56:29 : <NickE> and if you didn't want a tan, you can bet the sunscreen *worked*
2014-06-07 15:57:04 : "Inigo" left the channel.
2014-06-07 15:57:14 : <fredskuentz> oops
2014-06-07 15:57:20 : "Kevin" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 15:57:29 : <fredskuentz> Kevin's gonna run out of viable nicknames if this keeps up
duct-tapes Kevin to the channel!
2014-06-07 15:57:36 : <ronn> Kevin: When I finally got signed in to (hope typing that doesn't break anything) today I was known as "Owner"
2014-06-07 15:57:48 : <Kevin> I will NEVER run out of nicknames!
2014-06-07 15:57:56 : <fredskuentz> famous last words
2014-06-07 15:57:58 : <Kevin> Do you know how many stage names I've used in bands over the years?
2014-06-07 15:58:03 : <fredskuentz> 37
2014-06-07 15:58:05 : <Hippy> A proper autodoc would make women put beer in the front of the fridge. It's like a scavenger hunt in there!
2014-06-07 15:58:11 : <Kevin> Neither do I, but it's an assload.
2014-06-07 15:58:20 : <ronn> (Yeah, I thought about leaving it that way to see what happened.)
2014-06-07 15:58:41 : <fredskuentz> hmm. wouldn't beer kept in the front of the fridge be less cold?
2014-06-07 15:59:04 : <ronn> Point is, up 'til now it has always remembered my nickname from the last time . . .
2014-06-07 15:59:05 : <Kevin> I've got a boosterspice question, if anyone's up for it?
2014-06-07 15:59:16 : <Hippy> Er...hmmm...
2014-06-07 15:59:37 : <Hippy> Okay, a proper autodoc would make my liver able to gnerate beer from urine - much as Pabst do now
2014-06-07 15:59:49 : <dmac> lol
2014-06-07 15:59:52 : <Kevin> [rimshot]
2014-06-07 15:59:59 : <Hippy> Ask away!
2014-06-07 16:00:03 : <senax> Isn't it the client rather than the server that remembers your nick, ronn?
2014-06-07 16:00:22 : <ronn> In my fridge it doesn't seem to matter.
2014-06-07 16:00:36 : <Hippy> mIRC remembers the nick, yes, but sean may have more tricks up his sleeve
2014-06-07 16:01:04 : <andy> I think the webchat (which I assume that ronn was referring to) is actually just picking up the username from your computer login
2014-06-07 16:01:30 : <andy> so he's probably got a computer that came with a pre-configured auto-login user set up as "owner"
2014-06-07 16:01:31 : <fredskuentz> kevin, go for boosterspice
2014-06-07 16:01:33 : <Dan> I'm not bragging, but I found it conveient to buy a small fridge just for beer. If I put sodas in there, they freeze solid.
2014-06-07 16:01:43 : <fredskuentz> really?
2014-06-07 16:01:46 : <andy> my wife has one of those but it logs her in as "User"
2014-06-07 16:01:53 : <fredskuentz> soda freezes at a higher temp than beer?
2014-06-07 16:01:58 : <Hippy> What model fridge???
2014-06-07 16:02:01 : <senax> Ah...some Debian or Ubuntu variant? ISTR 'Owner' is the default username...
2014-06-07 16:02:02 : <fredskuentz> because of the alcohol content?
2014-06-07 16:02:07 : <Dan> I'll go look...
2014-06-07 16:02:14 : <ronn> senax: Dunno for sure: until today it's always come up "ronn" when the Chatzilla window first opens, while today it was "Owner"
2014-06-07 16:02:40 : <Hippy> So, Kevin. Boosterspice?
2014-06-07 16:02:41 : <fredskuentz> perhaps you've been sold
2014-06-07 16:02:51 : <Kevin> Ok, Boosterspice keeps me young indefinitely. 300 years or so seems within possibility. However, under normal circumstances brain cells are continually dying. So (A) if Boosterspice keeps brain cells from aging, does that affect my thought processes? and (B) if it DOESN'T, then does that mean I'd go progressively more senile as I aged? Oh, yeah, he's in great shape physically, but his brain is a happy meal with cheese.
2014-06-07 16:03:11 : <Lensman> Kevin can always use Kevin1, Kevin2, etc.
2014-06-07 16:03:27 : <senax> Sometimes I run out of cold beer and put a few in the freezer to chill them...then I forget about them and end up with "beer slushies".
2014-06-07 16:03:48 : <fredskuentz> okay, first, remember, boosterspice needs to be reapplied constantly
2014-06-07 16:03:48 : <Kevin> Yeah, I could do that, Lens, but "Mahatma Randy" or "Jim Electricity" or "Lastwulf" is so much more fun...
2014-06-07 16:03:49 : <Dan> It's a Sanyo, but it doesn't have a model number easily visible. It fits under a standard counter-top, however.
2014-06-07 16:04:03 : <Kevin> Go on, Fred.
2014-06-07 16:04:09 : <Larry> kevin: yes. I knew from the beginning that boosterspice wasn't for eternity.
2014-06-07 16:04:40 : <Hippy> But perhaps boosterspice keeps the neurons from dying, too. Plus, a high degree of redundancy would mean you'd work around that, finding new pathways etc. Even before boosterspice, Lucas Garner was mentally agile at...Lens?
2014-06-07 16:04:57 : <NickE> 185
2014-06-07 16:05:09 : <NickE> (maybe)
2014-06-07 16:05:10 : <fredskuentz> I would say that within a Nivenverse, any Nivenverse, any rejuvenation process fixes your brain automagically
2014-06-07 16:05:11 : <Hippy> Thanks, Dan, I've been looking for a good bar fridge
2014-06-07 16:05:33 : <Kevin> Well, I remember reading somewhere that if brain cells died at their normal rate, humans would start to have a serious IQ drop around age 180 or so.
2014-06-07 16:05:40 : <ronn> When we were cleaning out my stepmother's house I grabbed the minifridge she'd had in while she was in the retirement home for rehab, but maybe a month or so (just before it started getting really warm) it decided to quit cooling things . . .
2014-06-07 16:06:22 : <ronn> Howabout if they started off with an IQ of around 180 or so?
2014-06-07 16:06:23 : <Lensman> There's an implication in one of the Rw sequels that Boosterspice has a limited ability to regenerate. 500 years or so is the max. Perhaps you do slowly get senile...
2014-06-07 16:06:27 : <Larry> longevity is one of those questions: humankind will always be working on it. Our terminal date gets further and further away.
2014-06-07 16:06:32 : <Kevin> @ Fred: Yeah, I know it's automagical, but that's no fun. There's no story in just saying "It works." Figuring a reasonable limitation on how it works is more entertaining.
2014-06-07 16:06:38 : <Dan> Mine is the model with the stainless steel door. Not the tiny Dorm Fridge, but the taller one. I can put two 30-packs of beer in there and still have the door shelves free for more.
2014-06-07 16:07:04 : <Lensman> But earlier KS stories have no such limit on Boosterspice. "Grendel" seems to imply you can live until you get bored with living.
really should've come up to Georgia for a visit :(
2014-06-07 16:07:59 : <Dan> LibertyCon in a couple of weeks, Hippy!
2014-06-07 16:08:01 : <Hippy> Yes, Margo was more than 300
2014-06-07 16:08:13 : <Kevin> Lens, they may not have known the theoretical upper limit at that time. In Varley's "Eight Worlds" no one has any idea how long they'll live. Everyone is effectively immortal, barring accidents, crime, suicide, or just general stupidity.
2014-06-07 16:08:23 : <Hippy> Fingers crossed, Dan, if the surgery goes well :)
2014-06-07 16:08:41 : <Lensman> My question is this: If you inject stem cells in the brain, will new neurons form, and will they take over the function of neurons which are "past their prime"? It's the replacement that's the problem. How much can you replace and still be "you"?
2014-06-07 16:09:02 : <Kevin> Assuming you do it gradually, "You" will always be "You."
2014-06-07 16:09:17 : <ronn> . . . but she didn't look a day over 250! %I*rimshot*
2014-06-07 16:09:31 : <Dan> Well, Larry's mind works in a different direction from mine, but in my early stories I made assumptions for plot purposes that I was forced to re-think as I learned how to be a better writer.
2014-06-07 16:10:33 : <Hippy> So, Elrond at 3000+ years must have a lot more neurons than we do
2014-06-07 16:10:45 : <Larry> a new "you" will always redefine itself as "you". AS per Star Trek's transporters--which followed the Poul Anderson model. WE HAVE FED OUR SEAS.
2014-06-07 16:10:48 : <Hippy> Or at least, than I do <slurp>
2014-06-07 16:10:54 : <Dan> Larry has had similar incidents, witness Ringworld needing attitude thrusters.
2014-06-07 16:11:21 : <Kevin> [THIS IS NOT A PLUG] I wrote a story recently that revolved around the cost of life extension. Basically for a person to keep living, it took a ton of resources that kept other people basically living short lives. As a result, the people who had extended lives tended to be (A) very rich and (B) keep a low profile.
2014-06-07 16:11:35 : <fredskuentz> we can put an age on Margo
2014-06-07 16:11:36 : <Lensman> In "A Relic of Empire", an aged Rich Mann took Boosterspice, which restored his -appearance- to youth, including turning his gray hair black again, but he still got back twinges. So Boosterspice has a limited regenerative capability.
2014-06-07 16:11:52 : <ronn> One claim I read somewhere is that based on the rate of unavoidable accidents the maximum lifespan is probably something around 3000.
2014-06-07 16:11:53 : <Kevin> Oh, hey, wouldn't a Dyson Sphere have the same design instability as the Ringworld?
2014-06-07 16:12:10 : <fredskuentz> we have an upper limit to how far back boosterspice goes
2014-06-07 16:12:18 : <Lensman> I don't want to get into the "salami slicing" argument. If I'm turned into a dog by degrees, I'm no longer me, even if it was a gradual change.
2014-06-07 16:13:15 : <Dan> Who was it that said "old age isn't for sissies" ??? LOL!
2014-06-07 16:13:18 : <Hippy> So, Lens, did I stop being me before or after I got the glass eye? I still feel like me
2014-06-07 16:13:19 : <Kevin> @ Lens: I was 8 lbs at birth, and I'm 220 now. Clearly 270% of me is 'new' but it's still me.
2014-06-07 16:13:54 : <Kevin> Yeah, it's the old question of 'where do you keep your soul?' If you lose an arm, are you any less human, alive, aware, yourself?
2014-06-07 16:14:13 : <Kevin> If I'm a brain in a jar, am I any less me?
2014-06-07 16:14:26 : <Kevin> and if I add computer implants to my brain, am I any less me?
2014-06-07 16:14:28 : <fredskuentz> Okay, Margo is at the very most 300 years after the creation of Boosterspice
2014-06-07 16:14:39 : <Hippy> As a dog you might have a less clear idea of your identity, though. Think of that Lt Kingsbury....MKW
2014-06-07 16:14:40 : <Kevin> very most or very least?
2014-06-07 16:14:52 : <Dan> Kevin, that's also the cyborg question. "If I have prosthetic limbs, am I any less human?"
2014-06-07 16:15:00 : <Hippy> If I forget what I remmeber being able to remembere, am I still me?
2014-06-07 16:15:07 : <Kevin> Dan: yeah.
2014-06-07 16:15:25 : <ronn> Kevin: I think most Dyson spheres ass*u*me the existence of artificial gravity so those living on the inside don't fall off into the central star, and by our current understanding of physics, if you have artificial gravity you can probably assume a lot of other "magical" stuff . . .
2014-06-07 16:15:39 : <Kevin> Hippy: I can't remember my 8th grade locker combination. I can't remember the name of the first girl I ever kissed. Does that mean I'm not me?
2014-06-07 16:15:57 : <senax> You're obviously an imposter, Kevin.
2014-06-07 16:15:58 : <fredskuentz> I remember the name of every girl I ever kissed
2014-06-07 16:16:03 : <dmac> Over time shouldn't Boosterspice improve?
2014-06-07 16:16:04 : <Hippy> Well, Margo is out of ova, so that's 3000 months (plus a bit) old at the least
2014-06-07 16:16:11 : <fredskuentz> one of which was suppose to be here today
2014-06-07 16:16:28 : <Lensman> Larry, Kevin et al: The question of identity is complex. You may still "feel" you're you, but others may think you're a different person. That's not at all the same as legal identity.
2014-06-07 16:16:30 : <Kevin> ronn: wouldn't an equal 1-g field pulling on a star from all angles, y'know, stretch the star until it exploded or did something colorful like that?
2014-06-07 16:16:47 : <Hippy> Actually, it may mean you're me, Kevin, as our memories seem so similar
2014-06-07 16:16:55 : <ronn> Kevin: "magic"
2014-06-07 16:17:05 : <Kevin> @ Senax: possiblyyyyyyy...
2014-06-07 16:17:25 : <Larry> RONN: NO!
2014-06-07 16:17:40 : <fredskuentz> I'm still ticked off that that rat bastard Picard found a Dyson sphere, shrugged his shoulders, and flew away
2014-06-07 16:17:46 : <NickE> (OT beer aside: OMG - Innes and Gunn Bourbon Stout - nectar!)
2014-06-07 16:17:58 : <Dan> Kevin, that just means you're older now than you were in the 8th grade. New experiences tend to hide older memories. I can rremember the house in Flint where we lived until I was 3, but I can't remember details of what happened on any particular day. Same goes for more recent memories.
2014-06-07 16:18:00 : <Larry> sorry, I meant that for Kevin.
2014-06-07 16:18:03 : <Kevin> @ Ronn: poorly-thought-out magic of the sort that sank atlantis, yes.
2014-06-07 16:18:06 : <Lensman> It's actually the personality which I was referring to when I asked "Are you you"? Everybody loses memories as they age. That's normal, it's part of being human, it's part of what makes you you.
2014-06-07 16:18:36 : <fredskuentz> Larry, can you elaborate on that NO! please?
2014-06-07 16:18:37 : <Kevin> (I remember the kiss, for what it's worth)
2014-06-07 16:19:15 : <Hippy> Me, too. This is creepy...
2014-06-07 16:19:26 : <Lensman> But yes, it's certainly possible that at the time of THE RINGWORLD THRONE they had reached the limit of what Boosterspice could do... or at least the limit of what the earliest versions could do. Perhaps Boosterspice was tweaked to work better over the centuries.
2014-06-07 16:19:27 : <Kevin> @ Lens: everyone loses memories gradually, and everyone gains new ones the same way. That's why I said that if the change from you to stemcell-regenerated-you would still be "you" so long as it happened gradually.
2014-06-07 16:20:02 : "gofffan" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 16:20:03 : <fredskuentz> Boosterspice is derived from Tree-of-Life. ToL will keep you alive for thousands of years.
2014-06-07 16:20:08 : <fredskuentz> there are side effects
2014-06-07 16:20:09 : <Kevin> Yeah, I'd assume boosterspice got better as it went along.
2014-06-07 16:20:12 : <Hippy> Hi, gofffan
2014-06-07 16:20:18 : <Lensman> Margo is out of ova? Are you sure?
2014-06-07 16:20:21 : <fredskuentz> GOFFFAN!
2014-06-07 16:20:21 : <gofffan> hi guys. Hi hippy
2014-06-07 16:20:24 : <fredskuentz> happy dance
2014-06-07 16:20:27 : <Larry> It's easy to demonstrate that gravity is zero inside a uniform sphere. The sun isn't being subjected to anything (until it brushes the shell.)
2014-06-07 16:20:28 : <gofffan> For a while
2014-06-07 16:20:31 : <fredskuentz> Margo said she was
2014-06-07 16:20:42 : <fredskuentz> if you believe her any more than you believe the Hindmost
2014-06-07 16:20:44 : <Hippy> Yep, she says as much to Bey
2014-06-07 16:21:03 : <NickE> hi goffan
2014-06-07 16:21:17 : <gofffan> Hi nik
2014-06-07 16:21:18 : <Kevin> @ Larry: but if it's rotating like, say, a bernal sphere, then wouldn't it tend to have the instability that comes from not being able to have an eliptical orbit?
2014-06-07 16:21:19 : <gofffan> nick
2014-06-07 16:21:20 : <fredskuentz> Larry, I think Kevin is assuming the inner surface of the sphere has artificial gravity
2014-06-07 16:21:29 : <fredskuentz> sucking at the sun from all directions
2014-06-07 16:21:40 : <Kevin> @ Fred: I wasn't.
2014-06-07 16:21:46 : <fredskuentz> oh
2014-06-07 16:21:47 : <fredskuentz> then
2014-06-07 16:21:49 : <fredskuentz> NO!
2014-06-07 16:21:50 : <Kevin> I mean, I mentioned that, but I was being sarcastic.
2014-06-07 16:21:51 : <fredskuentz> :)
2014-06-07 16:22:10 : <andy> fredskuentz: that's what Larry's talking about, as long it's even gravity at all points, net effect on the sun is 0.
2014-06-07 16:22:17 : <dmac> Maybe we're looking at this too simplify. The ancient Egyptians have five different divisions to the soul and what made you you.
2014-06-07 16:22:25 : <Dan> I recall Boosterspice being derived from the "carved-up genes of Ragweed" from one of the early Known Space stories. I want to say it was something Louis said in Ringworld, but it could have been Bey who said it in one of the short stories.
2014-06-07 16:22:34 : <Kevin> (Fair to note Dyson's own invention of the Dysonsphere was *not* a single solid artifact, but a cloud of skillions of discrete objects)
2014-06-07 16:22:44 : <fredskuentz> Dan, originally boosterspice came from ragweed
2014-06-07 16:22:56 : <fredskuentz> the retcon explanation is that the UN made it from tree of life
2014-06-07 16:22:59 : <Lensman> Okay, if Margo says she's out of ova, then I presume that's true.
2014-06-07 16:23:10 : <fredskuentz> after they got Phssthpok's ship
2014-06-07 16:23:18 : <Larry> fred: OH. Kevin: who the hell knows? Gravity generators are thought to be impossible. Though maybe dark energy changes the equation.
2014-06-07 16:23:35 : <Kevin> dmac: Christians generally divide the 'self' up into mind, body, and spirit. Exactly which is the 'soul' - mind, or spirit - is never really clear.
2014-06-07 16:23:43 : <ronn> So people with hay fever are allergic to boosterspice?
2014-06-07 16:23:51 : <fredskuentz> lol
2014-06-07 16:24:04 : <fredskuentz> there's about 300 years between Phssthpok and Margo
2014-06-07 16:24:15 : <fredskuentz> so there's an upper limit to how old she can be
2014-06-07 16:24:16 : <Dan> I'd guess no, since the "ragweed" bit was a lie.
2014-06-07 16:24:28 : <Kevin> WAS the ragweed a lie?
2014-06-07 16:24:42 : <Hippy> Of course, the shell has shifting gravity because of all the little masses moving around on it, and over time...or maybe not. I still dont' see why you can't pump Venus atmosphere through a transfer booth and use it as rocket, and I read that forty years ago - when I was someone else.
2014-06-07 16:24:47 : <fredskuentz> Kevin, I'd say it was likely
2014-06-07 16:24:53 : <Dan> Unless ragweed *IS* Tree of Life, then yeah.
2014-06-07 16:25:13 : <Lensman> Hold on, now, it was Louis's speculation that Boosterspice came from tree-of-life. We don't know if that's true.
2014-06-07 16:25:16 : <Hippy> I find it tasty...
2014-06-07 16:25:29 : <dmac> Kevin: I understand. My point was why are we assuming that we know what "you" is when different human cultures have different beliefs on it.
2014-06-07 16:25:43 : <Dan> And as an old farm-boy, I know ragweed roots look nothing like yams or sweet potatoes.
2014-06-07 16:25:45 : <ronn> Larry: that was my point: current models of physics don't allow it or even have "room" for it to be discovered. Of course, there are other things that suggest we need a new model . . .
2014-06-07 16:26:19 : <Kevin> Well, think about this: Boosterspice version 1.0 could have come from ragweed. Boosterspice version 2.0 could have been ragweed and T.O.L. root. Boosterspice version 3.0 could have been TOL Root and Some Other Thing, and so on. Science marches forward.
2014-06-07 16:26:39 : <dmac> Hippy: Wasn't that in one of the MKW books?
2014-06-07 16:27:04 : <Hippy> Er, no. 'Theory and Practice of Teleportation'
2014-06-07 16:27:24 : <Kevin> Love that essay!
2014-06-07 16:27:41 : <Hippy> I will trust Larry's physics, though 'Only a fool. accepts what he's not equipped to question' but I just can't get my head around it.
2014-06-07 16:28:14 : <dmac> Hippy: Okay, both.
2014-06-07 16:28:31 : <Larry> Don't trust my physics against textbooks. Keep current.
2014-06-07 16:28:36 : <Kevin> DMAC: re: the soul. I'm on board with you. "Self" is a counterintuitively difficult concept. I mean, if I think, "I am," I'm doing it in words, and who the hell am I even talking to when I do that?
2014-06-07 16:29:05 : <Hippy> I certainly don't have the maths for that, Larry!
2014-06-07 16:29:22 : <Dan> Kevin, that's a "who is asking the question" sort of concept. :)
2014-06-07 16:29:30 : <ronn> And IIRC from RW Seeker had taken a massive dose of "something like boosterspice" that worked differently enough he didn't need subsequent doses to potentially live 20,000 years or more . . .
2014-06-07 16:29:31 : <Kevin> Hippy is British, I see. <G>
2014-06-07 16:29:59 : <Dan> Australian, actually
2014-06-07 16:30:02 : <Hippy> Australian
2014-06-07 16:30:20 : <Hippy> Well spotted, though, Kevin
2014-06-07 16:30:27 : <dmac> Hippy: The MKW story was terraforming a Venus type planet by teleporting the atmosphere away. Not necessarily used as a rocket.
2014-06-07 16:30:37 : <Lensman> I'm not sure we ever have a 3rd person Omnisicent statement that Boosterspice came from ragweed. Louis says that in Rw, but obviously he's repeating the public story.
2014-06-07 16:30:43 : <Dan> Still a member of the culture of the Empire, but with some social concepts being different.
2014-06-07 16:30:45 : <Kevin> Good for you, Hippy! My experience is they're far more fun.
2014-06-07 16:30:55 : <Kevin> It was the "Maths" that tipped me off.
2014-06-07 16:30:58 : <ronn> . . . so there is precedent for different types of longevity drugs that work in different ways.
2014-06-07 16:31:07 : <Hippy> Ah...that would work, dmac, but it should work as a rocket at the other end, only according to Larry it doesn't
2014-06-07 16:31:26 : <Hippy> Well summed-up, Dan
2014-06-07 16:31:28 : <Kevin> You could use that kind of thing for terraforming, though.
2014-06-07 16:31:34 : <andy> Kevin: Hippy's in Orlando, I'm in St. Pete, and from your login info it looks like you're in Tampa.
2014-06-07 16:31:54 : <andy> note: "in" not "from" :)
2014-06-07 16:32:23 : <Lensman> I think the question of "Are you you" has wandered off any useful point. The point is: Would replacing bits of your brain wipe out your memories faster than they normally fade? Would you gradually lose -all- the memories you had of a time before you started taking Boosterspice?
2014-06-07 16:32:32 : <Hippy> I'm at, for, with, below, within and abreast of Orlando, plus other prepositions as the mood takes me
2014-06-07 16:33:01 : <Kevin> Put the transporting booth in the lowest spot on venus, and the out point in space. All the atmosphere gets sucked off. Turn it off. Now put the receiving booth on Venus somewhere, and drop a transmitting booth with a filter set for "Oxygen" in Jupiter's atmosphere. Do that a couple times with filters set for the gases you want, and yer' cool. Instant planet: Just add water.
2014-06-07 16:33:04 : <senax> I wondered about the Tampa thing. I thought Kevin was in Nebraska...
2014-06-07 16:33:07 : <ronn> What would be the effect of opening a connection between two stepping disks, one where the atmospheric pressure is significantly greater than where the other is?
2014-06-07 16:33:49 : <Lensman> A related question: Does Boosterspice arrest the aging of individual cells, or does it replace them gradually? If Rich Mann still had back pains from rheumatism he got when he aged, then obviously not everything is being replaced.
2014-06-07 16:33:55 : <Hippy> Sucks at one end, blows at the other
2014-06-07 16:33:57 : <andy> senax: good thing I hedged my bets with "looks like", eh?
2014-06-07 16:33:58 : <Kevin> I'm secretly at my brother-in-laws house
2014-06-07 16:34:00 : <Larry> Lens: good question. Adding brain cells might erase memory as it adds intelligence. Odd results: a merely reactive genius.
2014-06-07 16:34:28 : <Dan> Unless the disk in the lower pressure atmosphere was set to "Send Only" then the pressures would seek to equalize.
2014-06-07 16:34:35 : <dmac> Very different moments of inertia you'd have to compensate for. Would a stepping disc/booth system be able to handle it?
2014-06-07 16:34:36 : <Kevin> So you guys can see where I am, huh? That's a little creepy.
2014-06-07 16:34:47 : <fredskuentz> more so for us
2014-06-07 16:34:53 : <Kevin> I've had stalkers for such a long time, it's hard to let my guard down, even though one of 'ems dead now.
2014-06-07 16:35:29 : <andy> Kevin: we see "[15:57:20] -!- Kevin [] has joined #knownspace" when you log in
2014-06-07 16:36:00 : <Hippy> That is fast scrolling, Andy
2014-06-07 16:36:06 : <Kevin> Huh. Well, we'll put this one down as "A victory for paranoia!"
2014-06-07 16:36:17 : <ronn> Hippy: So then why can't the higher-pressure gases coming out of the "blow" end be directed, e.g. by putting the stepping disk in something shaped like a rocket nozzle?
2014-06-07 16:36:38 : <fredskuentz> isn't this how they moved Uranus?
2014-06-07 16:36:47 : <senax> Sounds reasonable, ronn.
2014-06-07 16:36:54 : <Hippy> I thought they could, ronn, but Larry says 'it won't work for long' and that's the bit I can't fathom
2014-06-07 16:37:12 : <Hippy> Nope, that was a fusion rocket, Fred
2014-06-07 16:37:21 : <Dan> Those of us with dedicated chat software can see that at any time we ask the program for that particular info, Kevin. Relax, none of us are any sort of threat to you.
2014-06-07 16:37:24 : <Hippy> Sort of a ramscoop
2014-06-07 16:37:44 : <ronn> Fred, let's leave Uranus out of this . . .
2014-06-07 16:37:59 : <andy> or don't relax, and learn how to use TOR...
was trying for something there, too
2014-06-07 16:38:00 : <Larry> I can't remember what you guys are talking about. WORLD OUT OF TIME?
2014-06-07 16:38:22 : <Hippy> Yes. And 'Theory and Practice of Teleporatio9n'
2014-06-07 16:38:30 : <Dan> From your stories, yes Larry.
2014-06-07 16:38:45 : <Hippy> Now, I read it about two months ago, but you wrote it ages ago, so no worries, Larry
2014-06-07 16:39:00 : <Dan> Other writers have "borrowed" concepts that are similar, as well.
2014-06-07 16:39:10 : <Kevin> I'm relaxed. I mean, I'm as relaxed as I get, anyway. The dangerous one is dead, the pissed-off ex-girlfriend FINALLY got married, and the old man hasn't been heard from in years. Still, y'know, you spent a decade hiding from dangerous people, and it's hard to just jump back in. But I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it was safe. And if I wasn't at my Brother In Law's house...
2014-06-07 16:39:30 : <fredskuentz> You had an old man stalker?
2014-06-07 16:39:42 : <Kevin> Yeah.
2014-06-07 16:40:46 : <fredskuentz> ick
2014-06-07 16:41:07 : <Dan> Kevin, for what it's worth to you, "you can't live in fear." I've still got two living- what should I call them? "People who have picked me as an enemy?"
2014-06-07 16:41:31 : <Hippy> Anyway, Larry, a reminder of 'T&P of T'. You put the 'send' disk in the Venusian atmosphere and the recieve disk in a rocket on a Saturnian ice chunk from the rings. Atmosphere is sucked in at Venus and transmitted to an open booth at Saturn, where it goes out as vacuum. But you say it won't act as a rocket for very long
2014-06-07 16:41:37 : <Larry> i THINK i'M OUT OF ENEMIES. Caps were an accident.
2014-06-07 16:41:46 : "Foremost" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 16:41:49 : <Dan> My responce is to live and let karma stalk *them!*
2014-06-07 16:41:55 : <Foremost> hello
2014-06-07 16:42:05 : <fredskuentz> Is outliving your enemies the best revenge?
2014-06-07 16:42:05 : <Hippy> Hi, Foremost!
2014-06-07 16:42:11 : <Dan> Hello, Foremost.
2014-06-07 16:42:28 : <Foremost> so I was wondering, why do puppeteers chose to go toward galactic north?
2014-06-07 16:42:38 : <Larry> hippy: I don't remember my assumptions, so I'd better not comment.
2014-06-07 16:42:46 : <fredskuentz> It's a clearer path
2014-06-07 16:42:49 : <Kevin> I had an old man stalker who wouldn't shut up about the Apollo program, a pissed-off ex-girlfriend stalker, and a mentally ill guy I was friends with in college who eventually had a sex change and really wanted me to, uhm, y'know. He attempted several times to force the issue. Of my stalkers, he was the only really dangerous one. He got hit by a bus a bit ago. Or threw himself into a bus, depending on who you talk about. Like I said
2014-06-07 16:42:54 : <Dan> Fred, living as if they never existed is the best revenge. Outliving them is just gravy on the biscuit.
2014-06-07 16:42:57 : <Foremost> I mean, the polar regions of the galaxy are also baked in higher radiation from the black hole at the core
2014-06-07 16:42:59 : <senax> Closest I ever had to an enemy was a crazy neighbor who would walk into people's houses uninvited and threaten them.
2014-06-07 16:43:08 : <Hippy> No worries, Larry. Oh, how is 'RED TIDE' going? When will it be out?
2014-06-07 16:43:18 : <fredskuentz> Go North until there's nothing in your way, then turn hard left
smacks head in remorse
2014-06-07 16:43:32 : <fredskuentz> they're still 20,000 years ahead of the radiation
2014-06-07 16:43:33 : <Hippy> And how is Mrs Niven doing?
2014-06-07 16:44:32 : <Lensman> Living well is the best revenge.
2014-06-07 16:44:33 : <Larry> RED TIDE will be out late this year.
2014-06-07 16:44:47 : <Hippy> Excellent....
2014-06-07 16:44:50 : <gofffan> Excellent.
2014-06-07 16:44:59 : <Kevin> I dunno. Having someone who ruined your life for a decade getting hit by a bus is pretty good revenge, too.
2014-06-07 16:45:01 : "dmac" left the channel.
2014-06-07 16:45:02 : <Lensman> "Caps"? Larry's enemy/enemies? I guess I missed that, whatever it was.
2014-06-07 16:45:06 : <Larry> Marilyn has a new knee. Getting used to it remains painful.
2014-06-07 16:45:17 : <andy> Foremost: remember that puppeteers avoid danger - so presumably they are taking the clearest path in order to minimize the chance of encountering the unexpected.
2014-06-07 16:45:19 : <Hippy> Dining well off your enemies is the Kzinti revenge
2014-06-07 16:45:24 : <fredskuentz> But she kept the leg? So this is good news?
2014-06-07 16:45:32 : "dmac" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 16:45:33 : <fredskuentz> last we heard she was in danger
2014-06-07 16:45:40 : <dmac> Sorry about that.
2014-06-07 16:45:43 : <Kevin> Larry: My sympathies. My mom had one recently, and it was difficult.
2014-06-07 16:45:49 : <Hippy> Oh, I'm glad to hear that she has the replacement, but not that it's painful
2014-06-07 16:46:04 : <Larry> Yes, god news for Marilyn.
2014-06-07 16:46:11 : <fredskuentz> excellent
2014-06-07 16:46:15 : <Lensman> Kevin: I sent you a private message. Do you see a blinking button on your screen?
2014-06-07 16:46:49 : <fredskuentz> And how are you doing Larry? We'd still bring you casseroles if we were in range. :)
2014-06-07 16:46:51 : <Foremost> any chance of "rogue puppeteers" who take a more liberal view on risk? it's an old race, it must have off-shoots
2014-06-07 16:46:57 : <Larry> puppeteers go galactic north to get out of the galaxy quick. Avoid mass as well as pissed off former customers.
2014-06-07 16:47:17 : <Kevin> @Lens: Yeah, I clicked it and replied.
2014-06-07 16:47:48 : <Larry> I'm a little twitchy. Marilyn was doing a lot to keep us civilized: paying bills for instance.
2014-06-07 16:47:57 : <fredskuentz> Also, the Fleet of Worlds had to go Galactic North to accidentally flyby the Ringworld, in order to have to conscript Louis Wu ...
2014-06-07 16:48:41 : <fredskuentz> Larry, do you have someone tech savvy you can trust to set up auto bill pay for you?
2014-06-07 16:48:58 : <Lensman> Foremost: It's probably a mistake to try to figure out any single reason the Puppeteer Migration went to Galactic North. Multiple reasons.
2014-06-07 16:49:06 : <Larry> Aw, Fred. I could have put the Ringworld anywhere I needed to.
2014-06-07 16:49:23 : <Kevin> [laughing]
2014-06-07 16:49:36 : <fredskuentz> Fred looks into his own eyes
2014-06-07 16:49:55 : <Larry> paying my own bills is a lesser hassle...maybe.
2014-06-07 16:50:20 : <fredskuentz> k
2014-06-07 16:50:33 : <Lensman> Coming up with a different lie to tell Louis would be -much- easier than altering the course of the Fleet of Worlds.
2014-06-07 16:51:02 : <gofffan> Coincidences aren't always coincidental.
2014-06-07 16:51:12 : <Lensman> Well, Louis and the other explorers of the First Ringworld Expedition, but Louis is the only one who they need to fool.
2014-06-07 16:51:19 : <fredskuentz> I'm still trying to automate everything but the system keeps breaking down
2014-06-07 16:51:23 : <Larry> breaking for lunch. I'll catch up.
2014-06-07 16:51:33 : <fredskuentz> When Mom had her stroke, I had my mail forwarded to her house
2014-06-07 16:51:35 : <Jim> bye
2014-06-07 16:51:53 : <Dan> Larry, between setting up most of the bills on Auto-Pay and weiting up a simple spreadsheet to balance the checkbook, I've converted my financial situation into roughly 5 minutes of typing per day that I either earn or spend anything.
2014-06-07 16:51:54 : <fredskuentz> now I'm back at my house, but the Post Office doesn't like you to forward back the opposite direction
2014-06-07 16:52:03 : <Kevin> I've gotta help set the table. May check back in later
2014-06-07 16:52:06 : <fredskuentz> lest the world spin off it's axis and implode
2014-06-07 16:52:10 : "Kevin" left the channel.
2014-06-07 16:53:13 : <fredskuentz> so now I've got 2 UPS store mailboxes, but the post office says it's illegal to forward one of those to the other ...
2014-06-07 16:53:34 : <gofffan> Yes.
2014-06-07 16:53:41 : <fredskuentz> amazing
2014-06-07 16:53:48 : <gofffan> People do that kind of thing for shady reasons sometimes.
2014-06-07 16:53:50 : <senax> Circular references can be problematic.
2014-06-07 16:53:59 : <gofffan> They want a bonafide address somewhere.
2014-06-07 16:54:00 : <Dan> Fred, I suspect that they just want a physical address to deliver junk mail to. :)
2014-06-07 16:54:04 : <fredskuentz> people also move, foffan
2014-06-07 16:54:08 : <fredskuentz> gofffan
2014-06-07 16:54:09 : <fredskuentz> :)
2014-06-07 16:54:16 : <Lensman> And it's "illegal" to send a letter by UPS or FedEx. Ain't guv'mint mandated monopolies grand?
2014-06-07 16:54:28 : <fredskuentz> Dan, the post office will deliver junk mail to my house
2014-06-07 16:54:31 : <fredskuentz> but not actual mail
2014-06-07 16:54:53 : <senax> If you have two addresses, and forward each to the other, does the mail just circulate back and forth in a loop?
2014-06-07 16:55:06 : <gofffan> Can they deliver MY junk mail to your house Fred?
2014-06-07 16:55:12 : <fredskuentz> senax, that may be the theory
2014-06-07 16:55:22 : <Lensman> Seriously, junk mail doesn't get forwarded.
2014-06-07 16:55:33 : <Lensman> Sorry to be a wet blanket.
2014-06-07 16:55:47 : <fredskuentz> Yes, it does
2014-06-07 16:55:56 : <fredskuentz> and they just leave junk in every box anyway
2014-06-07 16:55:59 : <Foremost> other than ringworld, what's sci fi that gives aliens cultural diversity? usually they're monocultural, single-government races
2014-06-07 16:56:22 : <Foremost> or even single-personality
2014-06-07 16:56:37 : <fredskuentz> other than ringworld?
2014-06-07 16:56:41 : <fredskuentz> or other than niven?
2014-06-07 16:56:53 : <Foremost> yes :)
2014-06-07 16:57:01 : <Dan> Jame White's "Sector General Hospital Station" series does a fair job of showing diversity in alien cultures.
2014-06-07 16:57:16 : <Lensman> What's termed "junk mail" is not delivered to a specific person. It's addressed to "Mr. So-and-so, or current occupant of this address." Now, Fred may be referring to first class mail which he considers junk mail, but the Post Awful does not.
2014-06-07 16:58:06 : <fredskuentz> What's supposed to happen and what actually happens varies dramatically.
2014-06-07 16:58:06 : <gofffan> Lensman: I now understand the distinction.
2014-06-07 16:58:19 : <Lensman> Anderson's WAR OF THE WINGMEN
2014-06-07 16:58:32 : <Dan> L. Neil Smith's books featuring aliens also sow diversity between members of the same alien species.
2014-06-07 16:58:49 : <Dan> sow=show
2014-06-07 16:58:52 : <Lensman> goffan: Sorry to be pedantic, I used to answer questions about the Post Awful for a living.
2014-06-07 16:59:16 : <Lensman> Foster's ICERIGGER trilogy.
2014-06-07 16:59:24 : <Lensman> MISSION OF GRAVITY.
2014-06-07 16:59:28 : <Dan> Good point, Lens!~
2014-06-07 16:59:52 : <Lensman> And of course, DRAGON'S EGG which is just a reboot of MISSION OF GRAVITY.
2014-06-07 17:00:28 : <Lensman> Bad thing is, I can't even remember the technical term the USPS give to "junk mail".
2014-06-07 17:00:43 : <Lensman> Use to be "fourth class mail" but I think they changed the term.
2014-06-07 17:00:45 : <Dan> "Cash Cow?" LOL!
2014-06-07 17:01:13 : <senax> "bulk mail"?
2014-06-07 17:01:37 : <gofffan> Standard Mail
2014-06-07 17:01:42 : <Lensman> Yeah, the Post Awful's cash cow. Oh! Give senax a gold star, yah it's "bulk mail".
2014-06-07 17:01:46 : <dmac> If the government was really concerned about the environment don't you think junk mail postage would cost more than first class?
2014-06-07 17:02:06 : <Foremost> bulk is always cheaper
2014-06-07 17:02:11 : <Dan> I'd love to say that Keith Laumer's aliens show cultural diversity, but that isn't strictly true. Some stories do, and some don't.
2014-06-07 17:02:35 : <Lensman> I've heard it said that the "high" price of a first class stamp subsidizes the low price of bulk mail. Actually it's the other way 'round.
2014-06-07 17:03:09 : <dmac> Volume.
2014-06-07 17:03:32 : <Lensman> Since bulk mail has to be pre-sorted, the customer is doing a lot of work the PO normally does; and since bulk mail isn't guaranteed to be delivered within a certain number of days, as First Class mail is, then they don't need to charge as much.
2014-06-07 17:03:36 : <senax> At least most of it is paper. Somewhere, there are mountains of old AOL CDs and floppies.
2014-06-07 17:03:53 : <dmac> Spreading high fixed costs over a larger base.
2014-06-07 17:04:24 : <gofffan> Yikes. I'm being escorted out of the apartment by my wife. By for now guys - until next month!
2014-06-07 17:04:47 : <fredskuentz> is she going with you?
2014-06-07 17:04:50 : <fredskuentz> or evicting you?
2014-06-07 17:04:54 : <dmac> bye goffan.
2014-06-07 17:05:03 : <Hippy> 'Bye, gofffan
2014-06-07 17:05:09 : <dmac> gofffan
2014-06-07 17:05:15 : <gofffan> Taking me. :)
2014-06-07 17:05:16 : "gofffan" left the channel.
2014-06-07 17:05:19 : <fredskuentz> whew
2014-06-07 17:05:20 : <andy> gofffan: I hope she at least provides typical "escort" services. :-D
2014-06-07 17:05:25 : <andy> damn I missed him
2014-06-07 17:05:27 : <fredskuentz> too late
2014-06-07 17:05:37 : <senax> probably a good thing.
2014-06-07 17:05:40 : <Lensman> Actually, one of my earlier statements re the Post Awful was not true. It's not illegal to send a "letter" via UPS or FedEx, but you're supposed to put a Post Awful stamp on it and hand-cancel the stamp yourself. I confess to being a scofflaw when it comes to that...
2014-06-07 17:05:43 : <fredskuentz> I can post it to him on our other board if you'd like
2014-06-07 17:05:55 : <Hippy> In Australia, the Post Office doesn't have a monopoly on letters, but the law requires competitors to charge ten times as much as a standard stamp. See how that works? No monopoly there...
2014-06-07 17:05:56 : <Dan> "Missed him by *THAT* much... Sorry about that, Chief."
2014-06-07 17:06:12 : <Hippy> "And loving it"
2014-06-07 17:06:51 : <Dan> Damn, showing my age there, LOL!
2014-06-07 17:06:54 : <Hippy> Or "Would you believe by that much?"
2014-06-07 17:07:05 : <andy> Dan: "Get Smart" reference, right?
2014-06-07 17:07:28 : <Hippy> How about that much?
2014-06-07 17:07:34 : <Lensman> However, the USPS distinguishes between a "letter"-- personal correspondance-- and a "document" such as a contract. And don't ask me about the fine points of distinction... I never got much training on that.
2014-06-07 17:07:41 : <Dan> Original Series, yes. Although I thought the most recent movie was enjoyable as well.
2014-06-07 17:07:58 : <Foremost> if you've watched the Black Mirror miniseries by Charlie Booker, the second episode has an entire advertisement-driven world (a dystopia), worth watching
2014-06-07 17:08:07 : <Lensman> Yah, "Get Smart".
2014-06-07 17:08:32 : <Hippy> I'll have to look out for 'Black Mirror'
celebrates his knowledge of pop culture that's older than he is
2014-06-07 17:09:07 : <Lensman> But as far as aliens with well-developed differences in their cultures... once again I think Mr. Niven and Mr. Pournelle take the brass ring, with MOTE and its sequel.
2014-06-07 17:09:28 : <Lensman> I do admit to some prejudice there.
2014-06-07 17:09:39 : <Hippy> Oh, yes. Good example, Lens!
2014-06-07 17:10:45 : <Hippy> Earthsea Trilogy. That was pretty balkanised, IIRC
2014-06-07 17:10:58 : <Hippy> Discworld
2014-06-07 17:11:11 : <Lensman> Or perhaps not "prejudice" but tunnel vision. I've never read C.J. Cherryh's "Pride of Chanur" series. I got tired of C.J.'s dogged grim depressed stories. A little humor to lighten the mood occasionally is a good thing, C.J....
2014-06-07 17:11:20 : <Dan> Unfortunately, the only pop culture that pre-dates me is pre Captain Kangaroo, LOL!
2014-06-07 17:12:12 : <Hippy> Oh, you aged roleplayer, you
2014-06-07 17:12:16 : <Larry> yeah to all. We're way past "It was raining on Mongo". Any good writer will percieve diversity in cultures.
2014-06-07 17:12:39 : <dmac> I'm heading out. See you all next month.
2014-06-07 17:12:48 : <Hippy> 'Bye, dmac
2014-06-07 17:12:48 : <Dan> Bye, dmac!
2014-06-07 17:12:58 : "dmac" left the channel.
2014-06-07 17:13:05 : <Lensman> I confess I can't remember any SECTOR GENERAL story which concerned itself with distinctly different cultures in the same species. Perhaps someone can remind me?
2014-06-07 17:13:25 : <Larry> Time to resume my life, I think.
2014-06-07 17:13:34 : <Hippy> have me there, Lens.
2014-06-07 17:13:35 : <fredskuentz> Thank you for joining us Larry
2014-06-07 17:13:45 : <fredskuentz> and for taking the time to send Kevin that note
2014-06-07 17:13:50 : <senax> Bye Larry.
2014-06-07 17:13:51 : "Larry" left the channel.
2014-06-07 17:13:54 : <NickE> cheers Larry
2014-06-07 17:13:55 : <Dan> Lens, all I can say is that aliens in Sector General weren't mono-cultural as a rule.
2014-06-07 17:14:01 : <Lensman> I am thankful to say that I time has kindly erased pretty much all of the EARTHSEA TRILOGY from my memory.
2014-06-07 17:14:02 : <Hippy> I hope it's a good one, Larry. See you next month, and our regards to Mrs Niven
2014-06-07 17:14:10 : <fredskuentz> too late
2014-06-07 17:14:29 : <NickE> ah well
2014-06-07 17:14:33 : <Hippy> Dang
2014-06-07 17:15:25 : <NickE> brb
2014-06-07 17:15:56 : <Lensman> Well, good SF writers are past "It was raining on Mongo". I note with amusement that the Star Wars franchise has revived the idea of a planet that is all one single ecosystem... desert, forest, glacier... But that's a deliberate tribute to pulp era SF, I'm sure.
2014-06-07 17:16:02 : <Dan> White tended to write different members of the same species as individuals rather than as carbon copies of each other. Been a while since I read through the series. Once he died, the joy went out of the re-reads.
is ashamed to say he missed all the humour when he first read them
2014-06-07 17:17:15 : <Hippy> But on re-reading a few years back I got it
2014-06-07 17:17:29 : <Lensman> Come to think of it, I think Foster's MIDWORLD postulates a world which is all forest. And speaking as someone whose first college major was biology... I came very close to throwing that book across the room. It was that violently science-made-stupid, in what I think is otherwise a pretty good writer.
2014-06-07 17:18:06 : <Hippy> But....why wouldn't a world be all forest?
2014-06-07 17:18:13 : <Foremost> all forest, without oceans?
2014-06-07 17:18:14 : <senax> Hmm...never read any of White's books...I should probably give them a try.
stands ready to be thrown across the room
2014-06-07 17:18:26 : <Dan> I recall re-reading "Voyage Of The Space Beagle" by AE Von Voit and being astonished by all the jokes I had missed as a kid when I first read it.
2014-06-07 17:18:35 : <andy> Hippy: for the same reasons that our world isn't all forest
2014-06-07 17:18:47 : <andy> difference in sunlight at different latitudes
2014-06-07 17:19:14 : <Hippy> Do you mean, pines vs banyans?
2014-06-07 17:19:15 : <andy> differing moisture based on winds having to go up/down mountains
2014-06-07 17:19:20 : <Lensman> Dan: I thoroughly enjoyed the first several SECTOR GENERAL novels, but I think the later ones suffered from sequelitis. I suspect White felt the same way, since late in the series starting with (IIRC) HOSPITAL SHIP he took it out of the "gigantic hospital" setting.
2014-06-07 17:19:27 : <senax> Battery running to plug this thing in.
realizes that while there are stars out there that will shine for 1tn+ years, planets can't be habitable for more than a few billion years
2014-06-07 17:20:16 : <Lensman> Hard to have a forest at the poles, where sunlight is much dimmer. Hard to have a tropical or semi-tropical forest anywhere where it gets cold enough to freeze water every day.
2014-06-07 17:21:00 : <Foremost> Lensman: Earth did have a seasonal forest in antarctica until about 20mil years ago
2014-06-07 17:21:13 : <Hippy> But on Earth our plants vary! (Land of the eucalyptus talking, though I found out the other day that eucalypts are native outside of Australia)
2014-06-07 17:21:18 : <Dan> Lens, somewhat similar with Keith Laumer's post-stroke writing. It read like he was trying to correct ideas from earlier short stories as more-developed novels, but keeping the same punch lines to the jokes from the originals.
2014-06-07 17:21:19 : <ronn> my battery frequently runs low: where can I plug myself in?
2014-06-07 17:21:28 : <Lensman> Foremost: That's probably due to continental drift. Antarctica wasn't at the poles then, is my guess.
2014-06-07 17:21:41 : <Foremost> Lensman: it was near the poles for a longer time
2014-06-07 17:22:25 : <Hippy> Also, I think Lens is discounting adaptability somewhat.
2014-06-07 17:22:39 : <Hippy> Life is where carbon chains are
2014-06-07 17:22:56 : <Hippy> Although not on Earth, I suppose
2014-06-07 17:22:57 : <Foremost>
2014-06-07 17:24:27 : <Hippy> Suppose you have an Earth that rotates at 90 degrees to where it does now. Where would you put the poles?
2014-06-07 17:24:56 : <Lensman> Foremost: I know they think Antarctica was near the pole back then. I think "they" are wrong. Sometimes scientists can be blind to the obvious... as with the original theory of Continental Drift.
2014-06-07 17:25:01 : <NickE> well that was cool - just watched the ISS pass over, occluding Vega (I think) along the way - very pretty
2014-06-07 17:25:49 : <senax> Nice. I've only seen it a couple of times.
regrets being too far South (even here)
2014-06-07 17:25:53 : <Jim> I have to go; see you next month.
2014-06-07 17:25:56 : <Jim> bye
2014-06-07 17:26:02 : "Jim" left the channel.
2014-06-07 17:26:05 : <Hippy> 'Bye, Jim
2014-06-07 17:26:08 : <Dan> Darren, somewhere near Cario and Hong Kong, i suspect.
2014-06-07 17:26:38 : <Dan> Cairo, rather
2014-06-07 17:26:48 : <Hippy> Yeah, I thought that, but you coudl be arbitrary. But it makes sense along the Greenwich meridian and International Date Line, doesn't it?
2014-06-07 17:26:52 : <Foremost> if Earth had an obliquity of 90 degrees, it would rotate on its side, the day would be 6 months, followed by 6 months of darkness (and cold)
2014-06-07 17:27:07 : <Lensman> Adaptability cannot change the physical fact that water freezes at 32 degrees F. There are bacteria that live in below freezing temps by using "antifreeze" for body fluids; but it's not reasonable to think an entire forest was adapted to that... but that all those species died out so we don't see the same thing today. Occam's Razor says it wasn't near the pole back then.
2014-06-07 17:27:20 : <Foremost> the polar circle would be the same as the equator
2014-06-07 17:27:25 : <Hippy> Cold West Africa, liquid but cold Pacific with frozen Fiji
2014-06-07 17:27:57 : <Hippy> Actually, Melbourne would be in the polar circle
2014-06-07 17:28:08 : <Foremost> while earth can change its obliquity, it can't easily change its axis of rotation
2014-06-07 17:28:13 : <Lensman> But 6 months of hot and six months of freezing still doesn't get you tropical rain forest. It gets you desert.
2014-06-07 17:28:16 : <NickE> we often got lovely directly overhead passes - sometimes even at reasonable times to go watch
2014-06-07 17:29:01 : <Hippy> Oh, no we'd keep the axial tilt. I assume an alternate reality
2014-06-07 17:29:20 : <andy> Foremost: sure it can, just slam some big meteors into it at the right angles...
2014-06-07 17:29:39 : <andy> err..."correct" angles, not "right" ones
2014-06-07 17:29:43 : <Dan> I thought Hippy meant that rotation and such would be same as now, but the crust would be shifted sideways, but then, I tend to simplify things a lot.
2014-06-07 17:29:52 : <andy> big meteors at 90 degrees to the ground would be bad
2014-06-07 17:30:02 : <Foremost> yeah, but obliquity varies naturally from gravitational influences
2014-06-07 17:30:11 : <Lensman> Yes, the Earth's axial tilt does vary, altho not by that much. But as I said, 6 month of hot alternating with 6 months of freezing doesn't get you tropical or even sub-tropical rain forest, as we know did exist on Antartica in the distant past.
2014-06-07 17:30:30 : <Foremost> a planet without a big moon like ours (Mars) can change its obliquity quite radically without being smacked with an asteroid
2014-06-07 17:30:32 : <Hippy> No, I'm starting from scratch to avoid all that stuff
2014-06-07 17:31:03 : <Hippy> I suppose I'm cringing back on my familiar ground, looking at the geography and consequent politics
2014-06-07 17:31:23 : <Lensman> Yeah, a big moon is a big contributor to Earth being a "Goldilocks planet".
2014-06-07 17:31:31 : <Hippy> Antarctica now bridges the Equator, for example
2014-06-07 17:31:45 : <Lensman> Even if it's not necessary to "strip off the excess atmosphere" as claimed in one or two early Niven stories.
2014-06-07 17:31:48 : <Hippy> So is evolution, Lens
2014-06-07 17:32:19 : <Dan> Hippy, ever read any of HP Lovecraft's work? LOL!
AFK for carbon-based-bio break
2014-06-07 17:32:44 : <ronn> Antarctica was already pretty far south at the end of the Mesozoic 66Mybp ; here's 50 Mybp and 14Mybp
2014-06-07 17:33:24 : <Foremost> this is a nice site for alternate geography nerds:
2014-06-07 17:33:31 : <Foremost> also features mars and venus
2014-06-07 17:34:07 : <Foremost>
2014-06-07 17:35:36 : <ronn> And wrt "started out galactic north" both Magellanic clouds are south of the plane of the Milky Way (was searching for something that shows it clearly but got hung up in web-site minutae and didn't find what I wanted)
2014-06-07 17:35:41 : <Hippy> Oh, cool, Foremost thanks
(redundantly) back
2014-06-07 17:36:29 : <Hippy> There used to be an alternate zoology newsgroup and then a site, but the site owner appears to have totally vanished
2014-06-07 17:37:43 : <Hippy> I'll be danged, ronn. So, either the Puppeteers have it totally wrong or they're scooting right around the galaxy and going to creep up on the CofM from behind
2014-06-07 17:37:54 : <Foremost>
2014-06-07 17:38:08 : <Foremost> most local group galaxies are south
2014-06-07 17:38:28 : <Foremost> so they are following the conservative's objective of hiding in empty space
2014-06-07 17:38:47 : <Hippy> That seems reasonable
2014-06-07 17:39:17 : <Hippy> Lens, I apologise for before when you asked about sending a message and I thought you meant doing an action
2014-06-07 17:39:22 : <Dan> Given how much waste heat they suffer, IR scans of space would show them shining like a bloody spotlight! LOL!
2014-06-07 17:40:02 : <Foremost> unless they also move their arcologies at the bottom of the sea
2014-06-07 17:40:09 : <Hippy> That is a damn good point, Dan, but I don't see how they could stop it happening.
2014-06-07 17:40:14 : <Foremost> and start growing food with grow lamps underground
2014-06-07 17:40:23 : <Dan> Why yes, my wife is English, does it show in my vocabulary? LOL!
2014-06-07 17:40:42 : <Hippy> They could put the homeworld in place of a Ringworld sun and thus concel some of their heat, as it would shine on the Ringworld
2014-06-07 17:41:39 : <Foremost> there's no reason why an advanced race can't go completely underground
2014-06-07 17:41:49 : <fredskuentz> Morlocks
2014-06-07 17:41:52 : <Hippy> It does, Dan, but on the other hand, she fails to capture your Ozark twang
2014-06-07 17:42:48 : <Dan> Smokey Mtns, but Ozarks are similar.
2014-06-07 17:43:16 : <Lensman> The Couds of Magellan are to Galactic South? Oops... Maybe this is another way in which the galaxy of Known Space is different from ours?
2014-06-07 17:44:06 : <Dan> My "Knoxville Nuclear Belt" accent has been modified by my years living in Georgia. I'll admit that.
2014-06-07 17:44:07 : <Hippy> They're both banjo-pluckin' good, Dan
2014-06-07 17:44:28 : <Foremost> ok, puppeteers may have a different idea of galactic north or south
2014-06-07 17:44:42 : <ronn> Heading galactic north to get to the Magellanic Clouds bothered me the first time I read it 40-ish years ago, but of course that's presuming the PPs told the truth about where they are heading . . .
2014-06-07 17:44:48 : <Foremost> since we see north as the nearest planet to the plane of earth's orbit around the sun
2014-06-07 17:44:49 : <Hippy> Yeah...but Louis Wu doesn't
2014-06-07 17:44:50 : <Lensman> Hippy: I think your original interpretation of what I meant was correct. Sending a PM to Kevin was a separate matter.
2014-06-07 17:45:10 : <Hippy> Oh, glad to hear that, Lens
2014-06-07 17:45:13 : <Lensman> I just wanted to be able to...
2014-06-07 17:45:15 : <Foremost> if we use the righthand rule for screws, north would be the other way
tapes somebody or other to channel.
2014-06-07 17:46:05 : <Dan> :) I'm a trend-setter, LOL!
2014-06-07 17:46:22 : <Hippy> Well, Lens, then I can say that you can also italicise things by doing CTRL+I, the phrase, CTRL+I - which I was delighted to discover.
2014-06-07 17:46:46 : <Lensman> So the Migration after leaving the galaxy going north would have to have circled around the entire lens-shaped galaxy. (Notice how I not-so-subtly inject "lens" into the conversation.)
2014-06-07 17:46:58 : <Dan> Habits and in-jokes from IRC chat in the late 1990s do abound in my chat vocabulary.
2014-06-07 17:47:15 : <Lensman> That does seem rather... problematic, even for a long-lived species, when they are moving at sublight speed.
2014-06-07 17:47:44 : <Hippy> Me, too, but I never knew about CTRL+I until I typed it by accident last month
2014-06-07 17:48:03 : <Hippy> Of course, not everyone may be seeing it
2014-06-07 17:48:13 : <Lensman> Oh no, I've seen "duct tapes [insert name] to channel" many times. Including, I think, in the weekly Dawn Patrol chat room run by Roger Tener from Wichita.
2014-06-07 17:48:14 : <Foremost> "Using that "right hand rule" you need to point your thumb toward the "South Galactic Pole."" do puppeteers have something like that kind of rule?
2014-06-07 17:48:32 : <Dan> I can see a Puppeteer saying "humans are so backward that they think Galactic North is actually South!"
2014-06-07 17:48:33 : <Foremost> right-head rule
2014-06-07 17:49:22 : <Hippy> They would probably say 'right mouth rule' but they would have something like it
2014-06-07 17:49:37 : <senax> Sounds like Buys Ballot's Law.
2014-06-07 17:49:42 : <Lensman> Listen, if you want to think Antarctica really had a sub-tropical rain forest 20 million years ago while still being at the pole, I won't say you must be wrong. It's just that I think it requires fewer assumptions to assume the continent was further north at the time. Occam's Razor shaves that way, doesn't mean "Lensman must be right".
2014-06-07 17:49:48 : <Hippy> Now, if I have to cite where I get 'mouth' from there, I' a loss
2014-06-07 17:50:27 : <Lensman> Hippy: what I see is delighted
2014-06-07 17:50:45 : <Lensman> But that's okay, I know that you meant to emphasize that even if I don't see actual italics.
2014-06-07 17:50:48 : <Dan> Hippy, "Right Head Rule" actually sounds better when spoken aloud.
2014-06-07 17:51:09 : <Foremost> well, india is theorized to have been in the south indian ocean just 30mil years ago (breakneck speed)
2014-06-07 17:51:15 : <Hippy> Yep! Cool, huh? Now you can italicise for emphasis, novel titles, etc. Yay Sean!
2014-06-07 17:52:21 : <Lensman> test test
2014-06-07 17:52:22 : <Hippy> Puppeteers mightn't care, Dan, although they might give 'helping head' for an old puppeteer to cross the street
2014-06-07 17:52:23 : <Foremost> of course, nothing says all aliens use the same screw-thread direction :)
2014-06-07 17:52:27 : <Dan> As I recall, India is the fastest-moving continental plate, at 3 inches per year.
2014-06-07 17:52:30 : <ronn> Hippy: I see your messages as including "<left-bracket><backslash><zero><lower-case x><one><lower-case d><right-bracket>" text "<left-bracket><backslash><zero><lower-case x><one><lower-case d><right-bracket>"
is glad Larry didn't see that one
2014-06-07 17:52:36 : <Lensman> test
2014-06-07 17:53:08 : <Foremost> although nature does have a preferred handedness (matter vs antimatter)
2014-06-07 17:53:18 : <fredskuentz> If you're having problems, Lens, just say so and I'll boot you
2014-06-07 17:53:19 : <Lensman> eris doesn't seem to understand CTRL-I, or else I'm pushing the wrong buttons.
2014-06-07 17:53:35 : <Hippy> Oh. Sorry, ronn. I guess your client isn't interpreting correctly
2014-06-07 17:53:46 : <Dan> this is a test did that shut off when I attempted to end the command?
2014-06-07 17:53:55 : <Dan> Yes, it did.
2014-06-07 17:54:00 : <senax> Ctrl-I in XChat seems to redraw the chat window or something.
2014-06-07 17:54:02 : <Lensman> Fred: No, I'm just trying to get CTRL-I to do something. Must be disabled in eris.
2014-06-07 17:54:22 : <andy> I got < Dan> ]this is a test] did that shut off
2014-06-07 17:54:31 : <andy> only with ]'s in reverse video
2014-06-07 17:54:40 : <Hippy> I saw you do 'delighted' in italics, Lens
2014-06-07 17:54:48 : <fredskuentz> that's 'channel properties' here
2014-06-07 17:55:11 : <Hippy> Well, if you were all on mIRC....
2014-06-07 17:55:15 : <Dan> mIRC for the win. I've been using this program since 1995, and I still prefer it to all the alternatives I've used since then.
2014-06-07 17:55:33 : <Lensman> So you're arguing that when the Puppeteers said "galactic north" they actually meant "galactic south"? Nah, Louis piloted the /Long Shot/ to the Fleet, and unless there was some really sophisticated virtual reality going on there, he knew where he was going.
2014-06-07 17:55:42 : <Hippy> Although, last year, I was on Mark's bulletin board for the chat. Wow, that was a blast from the past!
2014-06-07 17:55:43 : <senax> I don't think mIRC would run on any of my computers.
2014-06-07 17:56:14 : <Hippy> Which reminds me...Nick, me old mate, me old china, me old...trout and toolbox
2014-06-07 17:56:33 : <Hippy> You may be right, senax
2014-06-07 17:56:53 : <Dan> mIRC has multiple platform versions. Windows, MAC, OSX, and others. It gets updated roughly twice a year.
2014-06-07 17:57:04 : <Lensman> I didn't quit using mIRC because I didn't like it. I quit because I couldn't remember all the buttons you had to push to set up a new install to access the Niven chat with mIRC, and I couldn't seem to find anyone who did chat regularly who was interested enough to help me with that. (Apologies for whining.)
2014-06-07 17:57:14 : <senax> I thought it was Windows only.
2014-06-07 17:57:27 : <Foremost> there is also handedness in the basic molecules for life: proteins, sugars. if life developed an opposite handed system, all their bio-matter would be inedible to us and vice-versa (even poisonous)
2014-06-07 17:58:16 : <Hippy> But you have to have molecular biology or whatever to understand that, Foremost, and you would probably have screws before MB
2014-06-07 17:58:30 : <Foremost> there is also an end-of-world scenario where someone develops an opposite-handed alga, which will take over the sea ecosystem since everything that eats it dies
2014-06-07 17:58:35 : <ronn> Except for Olestra, which only "may cause anal leakage."
2014-06-07 17:58:39 : <Lensman> Foremost: James Blish's original Trek novel, SPOCK MUST DIE!, uses that idea. Not a very good book, tho.
2014-06-07 17:58:39 : <Dan> It's very versitle, but it can be a PITA to set up a new install. However, once you figure out the settings to copy between the old version and the update, it works quite well.
2014-06-07 17:58:49 : <Hippy> Lens, I must apologise. If I had known that, I would've helped. Well, never too late...
2014-06-07 17:59:15 : <Lensman> Hippy: You must -not- apologize for something beyond your control.
2014-06-07 17:59:23 : <Hippy> I just have it copy the old, hang on, no I don't anymore.
2014-06-07 17:59:38 : <Hippy> Somebody has to, Lens :)
2014-06-07 17:59:43 : <Lensman> LOL
2014-06-07 17:59:46 : <Lensman> :)
2014-06-07 17:59:57 : <Hippy> It's my turn in even months
2014-06-07 18:00:02 : <fredskuentz> does anybody still use Olestra? I read that they tore down the Pringles plant they built specifically to manufacture anal leakage chips
2014-06-07 18:00:07 : <Hippy> It's Nick's turn in July
2014-06-07 18:00:11 : <senax> lol
2014-06-07 18:00:28 : <Lensman> Wow, like "The Green Marauder" only worse!
2014-06-07 18:00:31 : <Dan> I have versions that go back to my first ever install, so that I can copy/paste from them to the latest version. It isn't a big program, so I don't have to worry about wasting hard drive space.
2014-06-07 18:00:32 : <Foremost> the algae will reproduce without predators, slowly locking away the earth's carbon and leading to an ice age and general ecocide
2014-06-07 18:01:02 : <NickE> wait, what?!
2014-06-07 18:01:35 : <fredskuentz> "In the late 1990s, Olestra lost its popularity due to side effects, but products containing the ingredient can still be purchased at grocery stores in some countries."
2014-06-07 18:01:42 : <Hippy> Nick: 1, have I asked you about 5.25" floppy drives before?
2014-06-07 18:01:43 : <Lensman> Well, all that Olestra crap had "WOW" printed on the bags of chips, right? Don't see those anymore. I'd call it a fad, altho no doubt somebody is still making the stuff. I tried it once. Nasty taste.
2014-06-07 18:02:06 : <Hippy> 2, it is your turn in odd months to apologise for stuff beyond your control
2014-06-07 18:02:20 : <NickE> possibly - haven't used one in about 15 years (and it was old then)
2014-06-07 18:02:33 : <ronn> They even had a song about it . . .
2014-06-07 18:02:40 : <Hippy> No, that is a bit too old.
2014-06-07 18:02:44 : <ronn> . . . wait for it . . .
2014-06-07 18:02:59 : <fredskuentz> oh
2014-06-07 18:03:00 : <fredskuentz> dear
2014-06-07 18:03:01 : <fredskuentz> god
2014-06-07 18:03:12 : <fredskuentz> P&G now markets Olestra "as an industrial lubricant and paint additive"
2014-06-07 18:03:17 : <NickE> ah. Well I just basically don't give a fuck :-)
2014-06-07 18:03:24 : <Foremost> (not to mention that alien life could use different aminoacids, which are also inedible or possibly poisonous)
2014-06-07 18:03:35 : <Lensman> Wow, and I get laughed at for asking if new computers have a 3.5" floppy drive...
2014-06-07 18:03:54 : <Foremost> is that why nessus likes carrot juice ("even if it has no nutritional value")
2014-06-07 18:04:05 : <Lensman> LOL! Paint additive.
2014-06-07 18:04:07 : <ronn> . . . "It Keeps You Running"
2014-06-07 18:04:17 : <Hippy> The gf has some games on 5.25" and I thought I had a PC with a couple in it, but alas...
2014-06-07 18:04:19 : <NickE> Oddly, teh Save icon remains a 3.5 pictogram
2014-06-07 18:04:30 : <fredskuentz> they also use it to treat dioxin spill victims
2014-06-07 18:04:32 : <Hippy> Oh, ronn...
2014-06-07 18:04:33 : <Dan> The Aztec Two-Step, yeah.
2014-06-07 18:04:54 : <Hippy> What icon would you use, though?
2014-06-07 18:05:08 : <Lensman> Reminds me of a joke a friend of mine used to tell. He was at a restaurant, and wanted some cream for his coffee. The waitress brough him one of those tiny tubs of non-dairy creamer which was marked "Non-dairy whitener". He looked at it and said "Oh! Tempra paint!"
2014-06-07 18:05:11 : <NickE> well yeah, thats an issue
2014-06-07 18:05:37 : "Kevin" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 18:05:44 : <Hippy> LOL, Lens! I must remember that one
2014-06-07 18:05:47 : <Dan> WB, Kevin.
2014-06-07 18:05:53 : <Kevin> hey!
2014-06-07 18:05:59 : <Hippy> Good to see you again, Kevin
2014-06-07 18:06:02 : <senax> Hi Kevin.
2014-06-07 18:06:02 : <Kevin> Dinner was good. Washing the car was less so.
2014-06-07 18:06:09 : <NickE> most of my kids have never even used a 3,5 but they don't question why teh save icon is a floppy
2014-06-07 18:06:12 : <Lensman> Amino acids only apply to proteins, not to basic ability to digest sugars... or at least, I think that's right.
2014-06-07 18:06:55 : <Hippy> Same with my nieces and nephews, Nick. Ah, well, I shall approach Mark at some stage
2014-06-07 18:06:56 : <Dan> I am not sure if there's a bio-chemist in the house.
2014-06-07 18:07:03 : <NickE> hmm, must have missed something earlier
2014-06-07 18:07:04 : <ronn> Both [some] amino acids and sugars come in LH and RH versions.
2014-06-07 18:07:08 : <fredskuentz> wb kevin
2014-06-07 18:07:16 : <NickE> Optical isomers
2014-06-07 18:07:22 : <Hippy> Nick is as close as we have, I think. Jim may be something like it, though
2014-06-07 18:07:23 : <Lensman> Not sure why Nessus gets no nutritive value from carrots. Perhaps his system simply can't break down the fibers in it, as the human gut can't break down the fibers in green leaves.
2014-06-07 18:07:50 : <Lensman> Hey Kevin!
2014-06-07 18:07:54 : <Hippy> I don't recall him saying that carrot juice had no nutritional value
2014-06-07 18:08:08 : <NickE> dextro and laevo forms (sugars anyway)
2014-06-07 18:08:08 : <Lensman> I recall him saying exactly that in Rw.
2014-06-07 18:08:20 : <ronn> Those Earth animals that can digest cellulose can do so because they have the correct gut bacteria which actually do the job.
AFK to break down barley, hops and FDA-approved bladder leakage fluids
2014-06-07 18:08:51 : <Foremost> NickE: IIRC, L-aminoacids and D-sugars are the biologically useful ones (for us at least)
2014-06-07 18:08:58 : <Foremost> and they fit together
2014-06-07 18:09:01 : <fredskuentz> Nessus says nothing like that at all
2014-06-07 18:09:06 : <Lensman> Okay, hypothesis: Nessus' metabolism could handle simple sugars, but isn't equipped to break down Terran carbohydrates.
2014-06-07 18:09:17 : <NickE> yes we use l-glutamine as an essential additive in tissue culture media
2014-06-07 18:09:19 : <fredskuentz> Louis has a flight of fancy about it
2014-06-07 18:09:23 : <Dan> Humans & cockroaches? Both like Hot Dogs! It's the sawdust, don't ya know? LOL!
2014-06-07 18:09:40 : <fredskuentz> (If all the life of the puppeteer world had the same chemical basis, how could Nessus take nourishment from warm carrot juice?)
2014-06-07 18:10:12 : <fredskuentz> But Louis has no basis for that other than that everything smells the same to him
2014-06-07 18:10:26 : <Dan> A better question would be "how could Nessus not be poisoned by carrot juice?"
2014-06-07 18:10:53 : <ronn> Maybe it only causes him anal leakage . . .
2014-06-07 18:10:59 : <NickE> we're all evolved from food yeast
2014-06-07 18:11:02 : <fredskuentz> Well, and 'why do you assume something being drunk in a social situation has to provide nourishment''
2014-06-07 18:11:03 : <Dan> Food Yeast as the basis for all life in the Milky Way Galaxy?
2014-06-07 18:11:03 : <Foremost> carrot: 88% water, 7% sugar, 1% protein, 1% fibre, 1% ash, and 0.2% fat
2014-06-07 18:11:04 : <Hippy> Andy, Kevin, it's raining in Orlando
2014-06-07 18:11:16 : <Hippy> Everyone else, as you were
2014-06-07 18:11:28 : <NickE> so its isomeric preferences are going to be common to most KS species
2014-06-07 18:12:01 : <Dan> Hippy, it rains at 2:45 PM every day in Orlando. This must be "additional rain." LOL!
2014-06-07 18:12:02 : <fredskuentz> I'm drinking an Orange Fanta Zero
2014-06-07 18:12:14 : <fredskuentz> I'm quite certain it has no nutritional value of any sort
2014-06-07 18:12:23 : <ronn> Foremost: And 1.8% Unknown?
2014-06-07 18:12:24 : <NickE> :-)
2014-06-07 18:13:12 : <Lensman> Hmmm, maybe it's in one of the OF WORLDS books where Nessus specifies he gets no nutritive value from carrot juice. In Rw there is only this from Louis' internal narrative:
2014-06-07 18:13:18 : <Lensman> (If all the life of the puppeteer world had the same chemical basis, how could Nessus take nourishment from warm carrot juice?)
2014-06-07 18:13:19 : <Foremost> ronn: :)
2014-06-07 18:13:29 : <ronn> fsk: The "zero" refers to the amount of actual orange anything in it.
2014-06-07 18:13:32 : <fredskuentz> Lens, would that be the same quote I posted above?
2014-06-07 18:13:45 : <senax> I recall a comedian staring at the can of Tab he was drinking on stage..."These are the same ingredients as a battery!"
2014-06-07 18:13:58 : <Lensman> Fred gets no nutritive value from drinking Orange Fanta Zero. Warm or otherwise.
2014-06-07 18:14:17 : <Lensman> Darn, I see Fred got there first.
2014-06-07 18:14:19 : <fredskuentz> can you get nutritive value from anything with zero calories?
2014-06-07 18:14:40 : <Lensman> If you define "nutrition" to include minerals and vitamins, then yes.
2014-06-07 18:14:42 : <Dan> I get little or no nutritional value from beer, but I sure drink a hell of a lot of it, LOL!
2014-06-07 18:14:54 : <NickE> minerals, vitamis have no calorific value
2014-06-07 18:15:06 : <Hippy> I'm with Dan, but only for the first hundred drinks
2014-06-07 18:15:12 : <NickE> heck, water is an essential component#
2014-06-07 18:15:26 : <Kevin> Not *ALL* life in the Galaxy is from food yeast, just carbon-based life. The Trinocs presumably evolved unrelated to it, and the Outsiders.
2014-06-07 18:15:33 : <Lensman> Fred: Yes, you posted while I was looking it up. Contrats on your text-fu.
2014-06-07 18:15:41 : <Dan> Especialy in my preferred brand of beer, Nick! LOL!
2014-06-07 18:15:43 : <Lensman> Congrats.
2014-06-07 18:15:47 : <Foremost> "[in the US] to be labeled "fat free" it must contain less than 0.5 grams of fat per serving"
2014-06-07 18:16:19 : <Lensman> Tab. I tried that once... I can believe it about battery acid.
2014-06-07 18:16:41 : <Foremost> well, there are some substances that taste sweet, like antifreeze
2014-06-07 18:16:58 : <fredskuentz> okay
2014-06-07 18:17:05 : <Dan> US Beer = "Sex in a canoe..." Fucking close to water!
2014-06-07 18:17:09 : <fredskuentz> everybody knows antifreeze tastes sweet
2014-06-07 18:17:14 : <Hippy> Outsiders, definitely, Kevin, but the Trinocs...hmmm. I don't see anything orecluding carbon-based there. Just cold world methane breathers, I think
2014-06-07 18:17:22 : <fredskuentz> but how does anybody know antifreeze tastes sweet?
2014-06-07 18:17:25 : <Lensman> I'm not sure all carbon-based life is from food yeast.
2014-06-07 18:17:26 : <fredskuentz> who's the idiot that tried it?
2014-06-07 18:17:28 : <Kevin> No, only Russians know that about antifreeze.
2014-06-07 18:17:32 : <fredskuentz> and why do we believe him?
2014-06-07 18:17:43 : <NickE> agree (trinocs still probably carbon based)
2014-06-07 18:17:56 : <Hippy> Oh, yes, Dan. I had some Narragansett the other day, because I'd heard of it n 'Cheers'. It tastes like South Australian beer
2014-06-07 18:18:02 : <senax> Dan, that joke is decades out of date. The US has an enormous variety of beer, good and otherwise.
2014-06-07 18:18:03 : <Hippy> Only weaker
2014-06-07 18:18:26 : <ronn> Some may recall the claim years ago that the human body is just water and a few cents worth of chemicals, based on the list of individual elements and what they would be worth in elemental form. Looking at it another way, though, some of those compounds entirely or primarily made of C, H, O, and N are in compound form extremely expensive because the compounds are found in such small amounts...
2014-06-07 18:18:27 : <ronn> ...and/or difficult to extract and/or vital to life . . .
2014-06-07 18:18:44 : <Lensman> Helium II lifeforms ("The Coldest Place", "Flatlander") are not descended from food yeast.
2014-06-07 18:18:52 : <NickE> no
2014-06-07 18:18:53 : <Dan> Yes, but my favorite brand is still so watered down from British, German, and Australian beer that I get picked on about it.
2014-06-07 18:18:58 : <NickE> special case
2014-06-07 18:19:12 : <NickE> Outsiders too I'd assume]
2014-06-07 18:19:33 : <Kevin> One time when I was a kid, I inadvertantly ate something that was full of maggots without realizing it. So I panicked, and tried to drink something caustic that would kill them. My mom was on a health kick, so all we had was water. One set of neighbors were out shopping, others were Jehovah's Witnesses. Increasingly frantic I ran from house to house on our cul de sac, begging people for some kind of soft drink. FINALLY, in the very
2014-06-07 18:19:49 : <Kevin> I mean, seriously, EIGHT houses and not a single one has a Coke?
2014-06-07 18:19:50 : <fredskuentz> In college I liked THOR beer.
2014-06-07 18:19:54 : <Hippy> Actually, I think that thing ronn pointed out is the only refernce to money in ST:TOS
2014-06-07 18:19:55 : <fredskuentz> Not because it tasted good
2014-06-07 18:20:03 : <fredskuentz> but because, you know, it was THOR beer
2014-06-07 18:20:07 : <Hippy> "The Omega Glory"
2014-06-07 18:20:12 : <Lensman> ronn: Yeah, Carl Sagan talks about that in the original "Cosmos" series, and like you, points out that the compound are a lot more valuable than the individual elements.
2014-06-07 18:20:15 : <Kevin> @lens: Agreed about the He2
2014-06-07 18:20:26 : <ronn> It made your head THOR?
2014-06-07 18:20:32 : <fredskuentz> heh
2014-06-07 18:20:42 : <fredskuentz> there are lots of references to money in TOS
2014-06-07 18:21:16 : <Foremost> could Outsiders exploit condensate matter for their biological processes?
2014-06-07 18:21:20 : <Hippy> Okay, Fred, I stand ready to be shot down on that one, but save it for July
2014-06-07 18:21:22 : <Kevin> No, the first Harry Mudd ep has the dilithium miners talking about how they had enough to buy and sell planets. They don't say the word "Money," but every other bit of their conversation implies it.
2014-06-07 18:21:30 : <Foremost> and macroscopic quantum phenomena from ultra-cold fluids
2014-06-07 18:21:42 : <Lensman> Well, food yeast and Bandersnatchi don't breathe an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere. So if their descendents could evolve to us, then why not the Trinocs too? Not arguing the Trinocs must be descended from yeast, just saying we can't be sure they are not.
2014-06-07 18:21:42 : <Hippy> Outsiders are light-gravity things, though
2014-06-07 18:21:43 : <Kevin> Also Credits on K-7, which are called "Credits," but operate exactly like money.
2014-06-07 18:21:45 : <NickE> oohhh - Quantum biology
2014-06-07 18:21:46 : <fredskuentz> they actually say 'money' in the movies
2014-06-07 18:21:46 : <Foremost> they could even have macroscopic quantum-computing brains
2014-06-07 18:21:52 : <ronn> The argument about the value of the dehydrated human body being only a few cents in chemicals goes back well before that script was written.
2014-06-07 18:22:03 : <fredskuentz> and let's not forget quatloos
2014-06-07 18:22:10 : <fredskuentz> which seem to be a lot like money
2014-06-07 18:22:11 : <fredskuentz> :)
2014-06-07 18:22:11 : <NickE> hehe
2014-06-07 18:22:20 : <Kevin> True, but the gamesters are not feds
2014-06-07 18:22:46 : <fredskuentz> okay, so are we narrowing this to 'use of money by starfleet personnel'?
2014-06-07 18:22:47 : <Lensman> Coca-cola is caustic? I thought it was acidic.
2014-06-07 18:23:03 : <fredskuentz> clearly Uhura is buying Tribbles on K-7
2014-06-07 18:23:18 : <Kevin> I was a 10 year old kid with a stomach full of maggots. I didn't have time to reflect on basic chemistry.
2014-06-07 18:23:19 : <Hippy> I was insufficiently specific, so for 20 000 quatloons I should correct it to say 'mention of 20th century money'
2014-06-07 18:23:21 : <fredskuentz> and others try to buy her babies on the Enterprise
2014-06-07 18:23:28 : <Dan> Natural Light is pretty much water, 4.2% alcohol, and a minute fraction of beer flavoring.
2014-06-07 18:23:41 : <fredskuentz> mention of 20th Century money, I cite Star Trek 4 (The Whale One)
2014-06-07 18:23:47 : <Foremost> american beers tend to be light on alcohol
2014-06-07 18:23:50 : <senax> Coke has phosphoric acid, right?
2014-06-07 18:23:55 : <Lensman> Regarding Starfleet and money: I think it's pretty clear that altho the Service may not use "money", the rest of the galaxy does.
hugs his can of Becks as if his life depended on it
2014-06-07 18:24:09 : <ronn> senax: yes
2014-06-07 18:24:12 : <fredskuentz> and that the service does as well
2014-06-07 18:24:32 : <fredskuentz> "Scotty, you've just earned your pay for the week"
2014-06-07 18:24:43 : <Foremost> arguably, federation citizens live in a kind of soft dictatorship, where basic needs are guaranteed, but you need to join a political process to go out exploring
2014-06-07 18:24:57 : <Lensman> In fact, there is a Next Gen episode where Ryker is talking to a piano player in a bar, trying to get info, she aks for money, Ryker says Starfleet doesn't pay him a salary. She responds "Well then, you don't have much to offer, do you?"
2014-06-07 18:25:03 : <Dan> Lyn's beloved Steel Reserve beer has only 3.8% alcohol, but the taste is much more like British beer.
2014-06-07 18:25:04 : <fredskuentz> Well, we never see Earth in TOS
2014-06-07 18:25:06 : <Hippy> That could just be an aphorism, Fred, like saying you're worth your salt
2014-06-07 18:25:16 : <Kevin> Actually, Riker is rather indignant about that as memory serves.
2014-06-07 18:25:18 : <fredskuentz> the places they visit sure seem to use money
2014-06-07 18:25:24 : <Foremost> the other interpretation is that Earth is actually an empire living off the resources of conquered worlds, but the propaganda makes it look very soft and cuddly
2014-06-07 18:25:26 : <ronn> 23rd century Earth, at least.
2014-06-07 18:25:31 : <fredskuentz> and I don't see how Kirk deals with them except on their terms
2014-06-07 18:25:38 : <Foremost> even in the star trek universe, most humans live on earth
2014-06-07 18:25:41 : <Kevin> We do. We see Pike on earth in a dream sequence.
2014-06-07 18:25:49 : <fredskuentz> ronn, yes, and except for the hallucination in "The Menagerie"
2014-06-07 18:26:01 : <fredskuentz> or what Kevin said :D
2014-06-07 18:26:02 : <Kevin> My argument is that TOS takes place in the 22nd century.
2014-06-07 18:26:02 : <senax> You guys are making me thirsty.
2014-06-07 18:26:09 : <Kevin> I know everyone says 23rd, but they're wrong.
2014-06-07 18:26:14 : <fredskuentz> or the 23rd Century
2014-06-07 18:26:15 : <Lensman> I always wondered what they were gambling for in their eternal poker game. Exchangning optional off-duty hours? Exchanging credits paid off in doing chores, like laundry and room-cleaning?
2014-06-07 18:26:30 : <Foremost> in a post-scarcity world nobody would be hungry or thirsty, but building starships still costs money
2014-06-07 18:26:33 : <Kevin> Time in the holobrothel.
2014-06-07 18:26:36 : <Hippy> Foremost: EXACTLY!! That's what Next Gen's Federation is: a trading empire, mecantile empire
2014-06-07 18:26:38 : <fredskuentz> Kevin, the retcon TNG dates for TOS are certainly wrong
2014-06-07 18:26:55 : <fredskuentz> but I see no reason TOS isn't really around 2222
2014-06-07 18:27:00 : <fredskuentz> which is 23rd century
2014-06-07 18:27:14 : <fredskuentz> and TNG, 78 years later, was 2301 or so
2014-06-07 18:27:21 : <Hippy> I read somewhere that it is set 75 years after Kirk
2014-06-07 18:27:27 : <Foremost> most people in starfleet are humans and arguably are the largest single species of the galaxy (other than the borg maybe)
2014-06-07 18:27:34 : <Kevin> The card games bothered me: 1) Data can't help but count cards. 2) Geordie can see THROUGH the cards 3) Troi can sense if people are lying, and 4) Worf can't bluff because it's against his honor. So basically Riker always wins as he has the least useful skills of any of them.
2014-06-07 18:27:35 : <Lensman> Arguably, "Pay for the week" is just an outdated idiomatic phrase.
2014-06-07 18:27:40 : <Foremost> other than borg or the dominion clones
2014-06-07 18:27:46 : <Hippy> Which would make Kirk 109
2014-06-07 18:27:48 : <fredskuentz> that all worked until Data got the current earth date wrong in TNG's 'the neutral zone' and they decided to retcon ALL of real trek to match
2014-06-07 18:27:51 : <ronn> Lensman> "I always wondered what they were gambling for in their eternal poker game."
2014-06-07 18:27:52 : <ronn> In particular, what was Stephen hawking?
2014-06-07 18:27:59 : <fredskuentz> snort
2014-06-07 18:28:16 : <Dan> Fred that is why I did my own stories dated around 3140 AD, but used the dating system of whatever aliens were featured in the story.
2014-06-07 18:28:24 : <Kevin> Ok, in one TOS ep, Kirk is in the 60s, and a guard says "I'll sit on you for 200 years if I have to to get answers out of you," and Kirk says "That should be just about right."
2014-06-07 18:28:40 : <Kevin> Khan says "On earth, 200 years ago, I was a prince" and no one bothers to correct him.
2014-06-07 18:28:42 : <fredskuentz> sure, but that's not even a guess
2014-06-07 18:28:43 : <Lensman> Foremost: Re "Building starships still costs money", well said.
2014-06-07 18:29:16 : <fredskuentz> kevin, if Trek is in the beginning of the 23rd century, and Khan is at the end of the 20th
2014-06-07 18:29:22 : <fredskuentz> they're 200 years apart
2014-06-07 18:29:25 : <Kevin> So the show takes place at some point between 2166 and 2196. Split the difference
2014-06-07 18:29:26 : <fredskuentz> 100 for the 21st
2014-06-07 18:29:34 : <fredskuentz> 100 for the 22nd
2014-06-07 18:29:35 : <Lensman> Kevin: ROTFL!! Well said about the card games.
2014-06-07 18:30:03 : <Kevin> thankyew, lens
2014-06-07 18:30:48 : <fredskuentz> Khan was from the 1990s. Add 200. You get the 2190s. You only need to add a decade to get firmly into the 23rd Century.
2014-06-07 18:30:59 : <Lensman> Kevin: Yes, you're right, that's where Classic Trek says it's 200 years after present (1960s). As Fred notes, they retconned that away after making an error in dating in Next Gen.
2014-06-07 18:31:12 : <fredskuentz> Mr. Scott's Guild to the Enterprise put TMP in 2222
2014-06-07 18:31:17 : <Foremost> Kevin: just add a bunch of ferengi to the table, they are impervious to mind reading
2014-06-07 18:31:18 : <fredskuentz> which worked really really really well
2014-06-07 18:31:22 : <Kevin> I'm bad at math, but lemme see if I unederstand you, Fred: 1996 is the 20th century. 2096 is the 21st century, 2196 is the 22nd century. I don't see where adding 200 years puts me in the 23rd century?
2014-06-07 18:31:46 : <fredskuentz> because it's only 200 years from the end of the 20th to the start of the 23rd
2014-06-07 18:31:58 : <Kevin> Mr Scott's Guide and all those kinds of books don't count.
2014-06-07 18:32:09 : <fredskuentz> Kevin, sad but true
2014-06-07 18:32:09 : <Lensman> Retconned Trek timeline is stupid. They put 1st movie shortly after the 5 year mission, and the 2nd one something like 15 years later. Stupid.
2014-06-07 18:32:16 : <Kevin> Nor does the Mad Balls/TMP crossover issue
2014-06-07 18:32:16 : <ronn> If "200" is an estimate for "205+"
2014-06-07 18:32:20 : <fredskuentz> Lens, yes
2014-06-07 18:32:24 : <fredskuentz> and now it's worse
2014-06-07 18:32:34 : <Dan> I would hazard a guess that the actual Trek dates are roughly 200 years after the particular series was filmed, except for "Enterprise" which was obviously set in the Mirror Universe and meant as "ore-History."
2014-06-07 18:32:47 : <fredskuentz> now they're claiming TOS happened exactly 300 years after the original air dates or something ludicrous
2014-06-07 18:33:01 : <Dan> ore=pre
2014-06-07 18:33:12 : <fredskuentz> Dan, ENTERPRISE is a holonovel
2014-06-07 18:33:20 : <Dan> Typo Deamons, BEGONE!
2014-06-07 18:33:22 : <ronn> Dan: "ur-history"?
2014-06-07 18:33:35 : <Hippy> That's what I thought
2014-06-07 18:33:36 : <Foremost> the only people that care about the timeline make maybe 0.0% of the audience :p
2014-06-07 18:33:45 : <Lensman> Yes, ENTERPRISE is set in one of the alternate Trek universes, as is the "Mirror" universe.
2014-06-07 18:33:50 : <Kevin> Granted, the first movie says "In the 23rd century," but Space Seed is season 1, and TMP takes place 3 years after the end of the 5 year mission, sooooo 7 years later, roughly. If Khan was bang on the money, then +7 years would make it 2203ish, which is in the 23rd century. But the SHOW was in the 22nd
2014-06-07 18:34:12 : <fredskuentz> why?
2014-06-07 18:34:15 : <Kevin> this is based entirely on internal comments, which is the most authorotative source
2014-06-07 18:34:33 : <Lensman> Foremost: Hey! We're 0.000001% of the audience, so there!
2014-06-07 18:34:48 : <fredskuentz> Kevin, I must quibble
2014-06-07 18:34:49 : <fredskuentz> first
2014-06-07 18:34:59 : <fredskuentz> "In the 23rd Century" is not from the first movie
2014-06-07 18:34:59 : <Foremost> a star trek version of "sliders" may be fun (a star ship + interdimensional drive)
2014-06-07 18:35:02 : <Kevin> @ Foremost: I don't *care*, I just do this to make rabid Trekies question their beliefs. <G>
2014-06-07 18:35:18 : <senax> Trek continuity has always been pretty slipshod. Throw in the fact that every time they write themselves into a corner, they play the time travel card, and it's hopeless.
2014-06-07 18:35:27 : <fredskuentz> the first movie has that idiot Decker saying Voyager 6 fell into a black hole 300 years earlier
2014-06-07 18:35:31 : <ronn> o
2014-06-07 18:35:32 : <ronn> and isn't it "Daemons"? :-P
2014-06-07 18:35:34 : <Kevin> Which movie is "In the 23rd century?" in the opening title card?
2014-06-07 18:35:40 : <senax> Khan.
2014-06-07 18:35:44 : <fredskuentz> but that idiot Decker is an idiot, and can be ignored
2014-06-07 18:35:45 : <Kevin> Yeah, Trek Chronology flat out doesn't work.
2014-06-07 18:35:49 : <fredskuentz> and, what Senax said
2014-06-07 18:35:49 : <Dan> I find timelines of different SF&F series to be a delightful subject. Especally when they are given the Philip Jose' Farmer treatment and considered equally "real."
2014-06-07 18:35:54 : <Hippy> For all that, it was ST fans who taught later series writers to get their timelines sorted
2014-06-07 18:36:05 : <fredskuentz> Wrath of Khan calls it the 23rd Century
2014-06-07 18:36:30 : <Kevin> My bad re: Khan. I misremembered. I can not ABIDE TMP. "It's the world's first full-color simulation of a black and white film!"
2014-06-07 18:36:37 : <Foremost> this is funny:
2014-06-07 18:36:42 : <fredskuentz> But Khan, in the series, is from, what, 1997?
2014-06-07 18:36:55 : <fredskuentz> it's only 204 years from 1997 to the 23rd Century
2014-06-07 18:37:10 : <Dan> ST:TMP = Star Trek, the Motionles Picture, LOL!
2014-06-07 18:37:19 : <Kevin> So Khan is just BARELY into the 23rd century.
2014-06-07 18:37:25 : <Kevin> How is that a problem?
2014-06-07 18:37:35 : <ronn> ST: The Slow-Motion Picture
2014-06-07 18:37:36 : <Lensman> I've learned to NEVER EVER argue Trek triva with Fred, but I'm with Kevin... I certainly -seem- to remember The Motionles Picture starting out with a title card reading "In the 23rd century..." Just before they go into the sequence where the Klingons get zapped by V'ger.
2014-06-07 18:37:42 : <Hippy> In the future, archaeology shows that Jesus lived 119.pi years and died three times on six separate crosses before coming back to life as a giant turtle, so dates do become problematic...
2014-06-07 18:37:50 : <NickE> yeah, but if you make the then not unreasonable assumption that we'd go to teh moon and then CARRY ON - it could work
2014-06-07 18:38:39 : <Lensman> Nick: That assumption is made explicit in a Classic Trek episode.
2014-06-07 18:38:42 : <NickE> but yes, its all over the place and wars have started over less :-)
2014-06-07 18:38:43 : <fredskuentz> Lens, I've of course been poisoned by the directors cut of TMP
2014-06-07 18:38:48 : <fredskuentz> and or you may have
2014-06-07 18:38:57 : <fredskuentz> there are at least half a dozen versions of TMP out there
2014-06-07 18:39:07 : <senax> Got me one of those watery American beers...Boulevard ESB.
2014-06-07 18:39:08 : <fredskuentz> it's certainly possibly they stuck that on one of them
Why is EVERYONE so down on ST:TMP?
2014-06-07 18:39:44 : <Hippy> Where's that from, senax?
I'm not!
2014-06-07 18:39:53 : <Foremost> of course, if they made star trek darker and more realistic, it would lose its mass appeal
2014-06-07 18:40:02 : <Lensman> KIRK: They used to say if man could fly, he'd have wings. But he did fly. He discovered he had to. Do you wish that the first Apollo mission hadn't reached the moon, or that we hadn't gone on to Mars and then to the nearest star? That's like saying you wish that you still operated with scalpels and sewed your patients up with catgut like your great-great-great-great-grandfather used to. I'm in command. I could order this. But I'm not
2014-06-07 18:40:08 : <Lensman> I
2014-06-07 18:40:16 : <Lensman> I'm sure that was cut off for most of you.
2014-06-07 18:40:17 : <fredskuentz> a friend of mine points out that TMP is the best 'star trek' movie
2014-06-07 18:40:19 : <NickE> Fuck it, I liked it. It was pretty, it was a brave attempt. They fuckep up, but it meant we got Wrath later
2014-06-07 18:40:23 : <fredskuentz> it may not be the best movie movie
2014-06-07 18:40:35 : <fredskuentz> but it's the only one where the characters are in character
2014-06-07 18:40:36 : <Lensman> That's like saying you wish that you still operated with scalpels and sewed your patients up with catgut like your great-great-great-great-grandfather used to. I'm in command. I could order this. But I'm not because, Doctor McCoy is right in pointing out the enormous danger potential in any contact with life and intelligence as fantastically advanced as this. But I must point out that the possibilities, the potential for knowledge and
2014-06-07 18:40:50 : <Hippy> I concur with Fred's friend
2014-06-07 18:40:52 : <Lensman> But I'm not because, Doctor McCoy is right in pointing out the enormous danger potential in any contact with life and intelligence as fantastically advanced as this. But I must point out that the possibilities, the potential for knowledge and advancement is equally great. Risk. Risk is our business. That's what the starship is all about. That's why we're aboard her.
2014-06-07 18:41:00 : <ronn> Because like I did when it finished the first time I saw it, they though"Okay, but it wasn't Star Trek"
2014-06-07 18:41:03 : <senax> Hippy, its from Kansas City, Missouri. Mid-sized regional brewery popular in the central US. They make about a dozen different styles. This is a new one.
2014-06-07 18:41:04 : <fredskuentz> and then in Search for Spock you have that Starfleet moron saying The Enterprise is 25 years old so they need to scrap it
2014-06-07 18:41:09 : <fredskuentz> 25?!?!!?!?
2014-06-07 18:41:31 : <Lensman> Risk. Risk is our business. That's what the starship is all about. That's why we're aboard her.
2014-06-07 18:41:46 : <Foremost> maybe it's obsolete, enterprise can only do warp 9.5?
2014-06-07 18:41:47 : <NickE> yeah, that was pure BS (25)
2014-06-07 18:41:59 : <Hippy> Tempted as I am to give it a taste, senax, several times bitten, twice as many times shy
2014-06-07 18:42:04 : <fredskuentz> Plus, wouldn't a bigger number have worked BETTER?
2014-06-07 18:42:35 : <fredskuentz> of course commander starfleet is an idiot and a traitor, so who cares what he says
2014-06-07 18:42:50 : <senax> It's good. A litle on the light side for an ESB. 9.5% ABV. It's no Samuel Smith's or Fuller, but it's good.
2014-06-07 18:42:50 : <Dan> OS Trek always seemed to me to be 1960s people in putatively 22nd Century situations. Next Trek seemed to be 1990s people in 23rd Century situations, and the rest seemed to be "here's some people in funny clothes doing silly stuff..."
2014-06-07 18:42:54 : <NickE> well quite :-)
2014-06-07 18:43:13 : <senax> Sorry, 4.9%. Don't know where that number came from.
2014-06-07 18:43:15 : <Foremost> anyone played star trek online?
2014-06-07 18:43:26 : <ronn> And B-52s that are ~50 y.o. are still in service (being flown by crews who weren't even born when the plane they're flying was built)
2014-06-07 18:43:36 : <Hippy> 9.5%/ Eek. That is not a leisurely barbecue (or chat) beer
2014-06-07 18:43:42 : <NickE> 9.5 is pretty hefty even for an ESB. Fullers is only 5.7% I think
2014-06-07 18:43:51 : <senax> It was a typo.
2014-06-07 18:44:00 : <Lensman> Sorry, but The Motionless Picture attempted to reinterpret Starfleet as a New Agey, pajama-wearing bunch of aging "Make love, not war" hippees. (No offense to Hippee!) Remember, Kirk is the cowboy who shoots first, asks questions later. He's the captain in "Wrath of Khan". The one who kicks butt.
2014-06-07 18:44:03 : <senax> 4.9% was thae correct number.
2014-06-07 18:44:17 : <Hippy> Oh...good...
2014-06-07 18:44:25 : <ronn> Heck, I have some stuff that is 95% EtoH.
2014-06-07 18:44:27 : <NickE> The Bourbons Stout I had earlier was 7.5. Didn't taste like that very smooth and nice
2014-06-07 18:44:30 : <Hippy> That's a breakfast beer
2014-06-07 18:44:39 : <Kevin> the "25 years" thing was because of Trek's 25th anniversiary, and the writer mistakenly thought the enterprise was a brand new ship in TOS
2014-06-07 18:44:55 : <NickE> twat
2014-06-07 18:45:03 : <senax> I like some IPAs that are in the 6-7% range, but anything stronger I don't generally like the taste of.
2014-06-07 18:45:04 : <ronn> No, it's denatured alcohol.
2014-06-07 18:45:22 : <NickE> not good to drink!!!!
2014-06-07 18:45:23 : <Foremost> which is a stiffer drink: andorian or romulan ale?
2014-06-07 18:45:46 : <Kevin> Life expectency of an aircraft carrier is 50 years. There's no plan to pull B52s out of service in the forseeable future. A-10 Warthogs have been in service since Vietnam, and will probably not be pulled for another 20 years or so.
2014-06-07 18:45:53 : <senax> Get a case of each and we'll find out.
2014-06-07 18:46:09 : <NickE> :-)
2014-06-07 18:46:14 : <ronn> Kevin ignores recent news
2014-06-07 18:46:16 : <Dan> And that is why I fan-dated "Blake's 7" in the 3140s or later. Trek clamed the earlier dates, and government had to have time to go all empire-ish.
2014-06-07 18:46:18 : <Hippy> Is it true that IPA's are now more common than the common cold? They're everybloodywhere! (If Kevin doubted I was Australian...)
2014-06-07 18:46:26 : <Kevin> what recent news am I ignoring?
2014-06-07 18:46:33 : <Kevin> (Odds are I'm just ignorant of it)
2014-06-07 18:46:55 : <senax> Yeah there has been a serious IPA fad here for the last 10 years.
2014-06-07 18:46:56 : <Kevin> (I've been kinda' in-and-out for the last 20 minutes, sorry)
2014-06-07 18:47:05 : <Hippy> That doesn't take that long, Dan
2014-06-07 18:47:11 : <Lensman> Hmm? I thought the Warthogs were being pulled from service... altho some congresscritters are resisting.
2014-06-07 18:47:15 : <NickE> Strongest natuarally brewed beer gets is about 14% abv. Not counting stupid stuff like Brew Dogs Tactical Nuclear Penguin at around 40%
2014-06-07 18:47:18 : <Hippy> Talk to Jerry Pournelle about Russia
2014-06-07 18:47:25 : <Dan> Yeah, but I wanted to be optomistic, Darren.
2014-06-07 18:47:46 : <Hippy> LOL
2014-06-07 18:48:26 : <Kevin> Oh, that IS news about the Warthogs! Last time I talked to the USAF about 'em (Probably 5 years back) they were saying they'd be running these things until the bolts fell off, becasue they're just so rugged and cheap to use and hard to kill.
updates 'raining' to 'pissing down' in Orlando
2014-06-07 18:48:34 : <Dan> Besides, it gave me a starting point on the Mare Inebrium stories: Same time, different alternate universe.
2014-06-07 18:48:53 : <senax> Saw a cartoon recently: "Tell us about the survivability of the A-10"..."NOTHING survives the A-10!"
2014-06-07 18:49:07 : <Foremost> ooh, Mare Inebrium :)
2014-06-07 18:49:32 : <Hippy> Yes, I'm looking forward to this book, Dan
2014-06-07 18:49:51 : <fredskuentz> ugh, my PS3 is stuck showing 24 from Netflix
2014-06-07 18:50:01 : <fredskuentz> and Netflix has dropped TMP from streaming
2014-06-07 18:50:03 : <fredskuentz> idiots
2014-06-07 18:50:05 : <fredskuentz> all of them
2014-06-07 18:50:16 : <ronn> And as I pointed out on the mailing list less than a week after they announced retiring the aircraft specifically designed to stop Russian (then Soviet) tanks from rolling across Europe the evening news showed Russian tanks rolling into Ukraine . . .
2014-06-07 18:50:22 : <Hippy> I concur, you've got me wanting to watch it now
2014-06-07 18:50:36 : <Lensman> My interpretation of the Next Gen limit as < warp 10 was that they were using what in the Trek movies, in an earlier era, was called "transwarp". Something inherently faster than Classic Trek's warp factors, which were supposedly the cube of the warp factor X lightspeed, but were really more like the sixth power (to allow them to travel to the edge of the galaxy, and back, in "Where No Man has Gone Before".
2014-06-07 18:50:51 : <Dan> The Bethdish solar system gets moved/xeroxed into the Milky Way Galaxy to a point 65 LY from Earth, so that the first contact mission from Earth arrives in the system roughly 3140 AD.
2014-06-07 18:51:39 : <fredskuentz> okay
2014-06-07 18:51:53 : <fredskuentz> fired up the blu-ray of tmp
2014-06-07 18:51:56 : <fredskuentz> WTF!?!?!?!?
2014-06-07 18:51:57 : <Hippy> Interesting to speculate what has survived from our time. Have they topped 'Cassblanca' by then? (I hope not)
2014-06-07 18:52:11 : <fredskuentz> its showing me an ad for CRAP TREK INTO CRAPNESS
2014-06-07 18:52:12 : <Dan> Moved or xeroxed? I'm leaning towards xeroxed.
2014-06-07 18:52:15 : <Lensman> I have not followed the arguments for retiring the Warthog. I suppose at some point, unmanned drones will be better for close air support, but I don't know if we're at that point yet or not.
2014-06-07 18:52:21 : <Kevin> anything involving real numbers relating to warp drive is fannon.
2014-06-07 18:52:27 : <fredskuentz> the DVD mush have gone out and gotten it online
2014-06-07 18:52:29 : <Kevin> None of it makes any sense.
2014-06-07 18:52:29 : <fredskuentz> that's
2014-06-07 18:52:30 : <fredskuentz> just
2014-06-07 18:52:32 : <fredskuentz> evil
2014-06-07 18:52:47 : <Hippy> LOL! Fred, thank you for that warning
2014-06-07 18:53:11 : <fredskuentz> the blue ray can't physically contain that
2014-06-07 18:53:30 : <senax> The AF has never liked the CAS mission. It's amazing a platform like the A-1o ever got built.
2014-06-07 18:53:41 : <Hippy> What's 'fannon'? Ah, of course, 'canon written by fans'
2014-06-07 18:53:48 : <Lensman> Well, since I just have the DVD (special edition) of TMP, I'm sure I won't have to put up with an ad for "Into Darkness". :)
2014-06-07 18:53:53 : <Hippy> Or canon made by fans
2014-06-07 18:53:54 : <senax> AKA 'stuff we made up'.
2014-06-07 18:54:01 : <fredskuentz> but the special edition doesn't count
2014-06-07 18:54:16 : <fredskuentz> I'm watching the theatrical
2014-06-07 18:54:31 : <fredskuentz> I *worked* on the Director's Cut
2014-06-07 18:54:36 : <fredskuentz> and it still doesn't count
2014-06-07 18:54:37 : <fredskuentz> :)
2014-06-07 18:54:47 : <fredskuentz> okay, overture almost over
2014-06-07 18:54:57 : <ronn> And how many inches did you cut it too short?
2014-06-07 18:55:03 : <fredskuentz> got the audio set to 'house shake'
2014-06-07 18:55:05 : <fredskuentz> paramount logo
2014-06-07 18:55:11 : <fredskuentz> hee hee ronn
2014-06-07 18:55:16 : <Hippy> I can feel it here
2014-06-07 18:55:18 : <fredskuentz> THEME AND CREDITS
2014-06-07 18:55:27 : <fredskuentz> hey, this is the tng theme
2014-06-07 18:55:28 : <fredskuentz> what a rip
2014-06-07 18:55:42 : <Hippy> LOL!
2014-06-07 18:55:43 : <senax> lol.
2014-06-07 18:55:53 : <Lensman> Well, on this point Fred, we must agree to disagree. I consider TMP--Special Edition to be canon. And it's a half-star better than the theatrical release, so I don't ever plan to watch the theatrical release again. The grotesquely deformed /Enterprise/ saucer... Yuck!
AFK to investigate noises on the ground floor
2014-06-07 18:56:01 : <fredskuentz> presenting PERSIS KHAMBATTA
2014-06-07 18:56:18 : <senax> Deformed? Did I miss something?
2014-06-07 18:56:20 : <fredskuentz> tmp directors cut is BS
2014-06-07 18:56:38 : <fredskuentz> yeah, senax, there are some terrible paintings of the saucer at the end
2014-06-07 18:57:02 : <Lensman> "Fannon" seems a useful label... in that it separates it from real canon which it's not.
2014-06-07 18:57:09 : <fredskuentz> okay ... lens, no, no title card at all
2014-06-07 18:57:11 : <senax> The scene where they get out and walk on it?
2014-06-07 18:57:27 : <fredskuentz> it goes from DIRECTED BY ROBERT WISE to the V'Ger cloud to the Klingons
2014-06-07 18:57:40 : <fredskuentz> senax, yes
2014-06-07 18:57:45 : <ronn> That local station I mentioned earlier showed "Nemesis" last weekend.
2014-06-07 18:57:59 : <fredskuentz> ronn, I'm so terribly sorry
2014-06-07 18:58:30 : <fredskuentz> anyway, the 23rd Century title card is from Wrath of Khan
2014-06-07 18:58:33 : <Lensman> senax: Yes, that's where you see the grotesquely deformed /Enterprise/ saucer in the theatrical version. Mercifully that was re-done properly for the Special Edition. The latter also adds a scene in which Kirk orders the Enterprise's self-destruct thingie to be armed, so they can destroy V'ger if their plan to negotiate doesn't work.
2014-06-07 18:58:34 : <Dan> Darren, I know you read my online stories as research for your own, but I promise you that you'll have at least two "jaw-dropping" moments in every new story in the book, and at least one per my rewritten original online stories..
2014-06-07 18:58:40 : <fredskuentz> which I'll be happy to confirm if needed
2014-06-07 18:59:09 : <senax> I never noticed the deformity.
2014-06-07 18:59:09 : <ronn> And they just showed "Prince Caspain"
2014-06-07 18:59:13 : <fredskuentz> Lensman, you can see that extra footage in the TV version, without the grotesque directors cut changes
2014-06-07 18:59:23 : <Lensman> In other words, the Special Edition lets our Heroes be slightly more active, and slightly less standing around doing nothing while (literally) gaping at the FX.
2014-06-07 18:59:24 : <fredskuentz> like Joel Schumuckers gay Vulcan
2014-06-07 19:00:04 : <senax> Kind of like the 10 minutes of gaping at the Enterprise in Earth orbit near the beginning?
2014-06-07 19:00:17 : <Kevin> One time years ago I was in a Barnes & Noble in the film secton, and there were these three guys looking through some book about the Trek movies. Then one of 'em said "Roddenberry's vision for the film was brilliant" (No, it wasn't), "But they hired the guy who did sound of music to direct it for some reason! Can you imagine that? Snork, snork, snork".
2014-06-07 19:00:19 : <Lensman> Fred: See, this is why I have learned never to argue Trek triva with you. I trust what you say more than my own memory on such things.
2014-06-07 19:00:47 : <ronn> "Snork" is the gay Vulcan?
2014-06-07 19:01:11 : <fredskuentz> lens, you almost had me convinced :)
2014-06-07 19:01:43 : <Dan> And just what did they name the gay Vulcan? "Spunk?" "T'wat?"
2014-06-07 19:01:51 : <Foremost> rodenberry's vision for DS9 was totally different from what it actually turned out
2014-06-07 19:02:04 : <Foremost> rod would have made DS9 a lot more camp and upbeat
2014-06-07 19:02:05 : <fredskuentz> oh
2014-06-07 19:02:05 : <fredskuentz> oh
2014-06-07 19:02:13 : <fredskuentz> i'm free associating
2014-06-07 19:02:31 : <fredskuentz> I don't think we've discussed this before
2014-06-07 19:02:40 : <Kevin> I flew into a rage for no good reason other than I was in a mood to fly into a rage, and tore into them. "Do you geeks know who Robert Wise is? Robert Wise knew Science Fiction! He did 'The Andromeda Strain' and 'The Day the Earth Stood Still', both timeless classics, and he's the only director in history to have ever had a hit film in EVERY genre, and he freakin' started his career working as an editor on Citizen Kane. He only did
2014-06-07 19:02:43 : <fredskuentz> ASSIGNMENT EARTH
2014-06-07 19:02:54 : <Lensman> Fred: re "grotesque directors cut changes" <snark> :)
2014-06-07 19:02:59 : <Kevin> I think David Gautereaux was the gay vulcan.
2014-06-07 19:03:12 : <fredskuentz> no
2014-06-07 19:03:16 : <senax> The Andromeda Strain was definitely a classic.
2014-06-07 19:03:17 : <ronn> Dan: "Zachary Quinto" /non-PC
2014-06-07 19:03:25 : <Foremost> vulcans are neither gay nor straight since they don't have sex for fun
2014-06-07 19:03:27 : <fredskuentz> that's the guy that can't act on the space station
2014-06-07 19:03:27 : <Kevin> Oh, is he gay?
2014-06-07 19:03:27 : <Dan> Oh! LOL!
2014-06-07 19:03:35 : <Lensman> Well more to the point, Robert Wise directed "The Day the Earth Stood Still". Which is still no better a recommendation than "The Sound of Music" to direct a space opera movie!
2014-06-07 19:03:36 : <Foremost> only once every 7 years or else they die
2014-06-07 19:04:17 : <Foremost> although they do have a sense of aesthetics
2014-06-07 19:04:19 : <fredskuentz> anyway
2014-06-07 19:04:24 : <fredskuentz> ASSIGNMENT EARTH
2014-06-07 19:04:26 : <Kevin> My point is: they were ragging on Wise because theyd' been told to rag on Wise. They knew nothing about film, and really nothing about SF beyond Trek and Star Wars.
2014-06-07 19:04:30 : <fredskuentz> Robert Lansing as Gary Seven
2014-06-07 19:04:31 : <Foremost> so they could screw "logically" every once in a while
2014-06-07 19:04:46 : <fredskuentz> direct intentional rip off of Doctor Who?
2014-06-07 19:04:49 : <fredskuentz> yay or nay?
2014-06-07 19:05:07 : <fredskuentz> Alien, earth girl helper, space pet, sonic screwdriver ...
2014-06-07 19:05:08 : <Kevin> "Snorking" by the way is that kind of honking laugh people do out of their noses.
2014-06-07 19:05:51 : <Kevin> generally considered embarasing
2014-06-07 19:05:54 : <Lensman> Hmmm, I had forgotten Wise directed "The Andromeda Strain". Certainly a very, very, very different mood from "Day the Earth Stood Still" !!
2014-06-07 19:06:00 : <Dan> I doubt that they ever knew about Doctor Who. That would require that they paid attention to something besides deoderant adverts for more than 30 years.
2014-06-07 19:06:20 : <fredskuentz> It is *awfully* similar Dan
2014-06-07 19:06:46 : <fredskuentz> I like Wise in B&W. I'm not impressed with his color work, including Andromeda Strain.
2014-06-07 19:06:47 : <Dan> Correlation does not equal education, Fred.
2014-06-07 19:06:59 : <fredskuentz> I hate hate hate the end, ripped off from Day of the Triffids
2014-06-07 19:07:12 : <fredskuentz> I hate hate hate the stun lasers
2014-06-07 19:07:34 : <fredskuentz> Dan, which is why I opened it for discussion
2014-06-07 19:07:41 : <fredskuentz> I only had this mentioned to me recently
2014-06-07 19:07:43 : <Hippy> Ah, yes, that was where it was from. Well observed, Fred
2014-06-07 19:07:43 : <Dan> LOL!
2014-06-07 19:07:48 : <senax> The lasers were stupid. What's this about triffids?
2014-06-07 19:07:59 : <fredskuentz> "look, water kills them!"
2014-06-07 19:08:01 : <Lensman> "The Andromeda Strain" is a Great film. A true classic, and faithful to Crichton's book. The film has a very cold, austere mood, but that's quite appropriate for the subject and the setting.
2014-06-07 19:08:24 : <fredskuentz> that's the 'happily ever after' stupid end they stuck on TRIFFIDS, and Andromeda Strain stole it
2014-06-07 19:08:25 : <senax> Nothing killed Andromeda. It mutated into a harmless form.
2014-06-07 19:08:31 : <fredskuentz> nope
2014-06-07 19:08:34 : <fredskuentz> in the movie
2014-06-07 19:08:37 : <fredskuentz> rain kills it
2014-06-07 19:08:38 : <senax> The pH thing was a red herring.
2014-06-07 19:08:48 : <fredskuentz> in the BOOK it mutates harmlessly
2014-06-07 19:08:53 : <Lensman> I am not a big enough Dr. Who fan to have spotted the similarity. Did Gary 7 have a sonic screwdriver?
2014-06-07 19:08:58 : <fredskuentz> yep
2014-06-07 19:08:59 : <Dan> I actually love that movie, but i ALWAYS INTERPRITED THE LASERS TO BE TARGETING SYSTEMS FOR DART GUNS.
2014-06-07 19:09:00 : <Kevin> WHich version of The Andromeda Strain are we talking about? The 70s one or the crappy remake?
2014-06-07 19:09:07 : <fredskuentz> kevin
2014-06-07 19:09:13 : <fredskuentz> we NEVER talk of the remake
2014-06-07 19:09:14 : <fredskuentz> NEVER
2014-06-07 19:09:15 : <Dan> Sorry, accidental caps-lock.
2014-06-07 19:09:20 : <senax> Sorry. I read the book before I saw the movie. Sometimes I forget the few things that were changed.
2014-06-07 19:09:22 : <Kevin> it's ok. I deserved that.
2014-06-07 19:09:28 : <fredskuentz> senax, yep
2014-06-07 19:09:33 : <fredskuentz> kevin, heh
2014-06-07 19:09:36 : <Foremost> I tend to hate "inquisition-style" episodes, both star trek and stargate were heavy with them
2014-06-07 19:09:37 : <senax> I never saw the remake. Don't plan to either.
2014-06-07 19:09:54 : <Kevin> In any event, the conclusion of TAS is pretty remarkable in that it's a fight to KEEP people from doing something.
2014-06-07 19:09:59 : <Lensman> Rain didn't kill the Andromeda... virus? The pH factor in seawater killed it.
2014-06-07 19:10:10 : <fredskuentz> gary seven sonic screwdriver
2014-06-07 19:10:10 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 19:10:12 : <Kevin> Inquisition. You mean court-based ones?
2014-06-07 19:10:27 : <senax> In my opinion the main weakness of the film was that the true nature of Project Scoop was explained too blatently.
2014-06-07 19:10:42 : <Kevin> I'll see your sonic screwdriver and raise you one....just let me find a picture.
2014-06-07 19:10:54 : "ronn" left the channel.
2014-06-07 19:11:13 : <senax> In case the audience was too dumb to put the pieces together, they add a scene where one of the characters explains it all in an angrry rant.
2014-06-07 19:11:17 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 19:11:18 : <Lensman> At least, in the movie. I think someone is mis-remembering, The strain had mutated into a non-lethal form late in the movie, but it wasn't killed until rain carried it into the sea. I'm not sure, but I think that was straight from the book. Certainly the pH factor killing it is from the book.
2014-06-07 19:11:31 : <Foremost> Kevin: recapitulation episodes where an inquisitor comes down to pass judgment on the crew
2014-06-07 19:11:36 : <fredskuentz> the rain sequence is an addition to the movie
2014-06-07 19:11:41 : <fredskuentz> from triffids
2014-06-07 19:11:45 : <fredskuentz> the rain is not from the book
2014-06-07 19:11:58 : <Dan> Kevin, Gary Seven style sonic screwdriver didn't show up until David Tennant-era Doctor Who. The ep with the Adipose critters.
2014-06-07 19:12:06 : <senax> Nothing killed it in the book. pH stopped its growth,
2014-06-07 19:12:31 : <Kevin> (Searching for pictures. Yeeesh! I always forget how hot Jenny Argutter was!)
2014-06-07 19:12:40 : <senax> but it was still around, albeit harmless, at the end of the book.
2014-06-07 19:12:45 : <fredskuentz> right
2014-06-07 19:12:54 : <fredskuentz> okay
2014-06-07 19:13:04 : <Lensman> I saw the remake of "Day the Earth Stood Still" on TV. Wow, am I glad I didn't spend money to see it...
2014-06-07 19:13:13 : <fredskuentz> anybody that says ASSIGNMENT EARTH is not a direct rip off of DOCTOR WHO
2014-06-07 19:13:16 : <fredskuentz> explain THIS
2014-06-07 19:13:17 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 19:13:17 : <Hippy> Seawater killed triffids and yes, Jenny Agutter. Have a look at 'Walkabout'
2014-06-07 19:13:27 : <Dan> And even then it was owned by the villianess.
2014-06-07 19:13:34 : <fredskuentz> oh dear god hippy, I saw Walkabout recently
2014-06-07 19:13:43 : <fredskuentz> and felt so guilty
2014-06-07 19:13:52 : "ronn" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 19:14:00 : <Dan> WB, ronn!
2014-06-07 19:14:11 : <Hippy> Hi, ronn. Fred is confessing to guilt
2014-06-07 19:14:22 : <fredskuentz> isn't she like 15?
2014-06-07 19:14:38 : <Hippy> 21, but the character looks fifteen
2014-06-07 19:14:56 : <Hippy> And is supposed to be 15
2014-06-07 19:15:14 : <fredskuentz> Hmm
2014-06-07 19:15:18 : <Kevin> Never seen Walkabout. For obvious reasons.
2014-06-07 19:15:24 : <fredskuentz> looks like she was 18 when they filmed it
2014-06-07 19:15:29 : <fredskuentz> okay, I feel less guilty
2014-06-07 19:15:34 : <Kevin> I have long longed for a restored version of Logan's Run, though.
2014-06-07 19:15:46 : <Hippy> 18, yes, that sounds about right
2014-06-07 19:15:59 : <fredskuentz> Logan's Run is one where I'd support them replacing the awful fx work
2014-06-07 19:16:04 : <Hippy> I think the DVD is that, Kevin
2014-06-07 19:16:10 : <Dan> Actually, it was Carole Ann Ford in Day of the Triffids.
2014-06-07 19:16:17 : <Hippy> Mine matches the cinema release I saw, anyway
2014-06-07 19:16:46 : <Hippy> Er...hmm. Who was in the lighthouse?
2014-06-07 19:16:49 : <fredskuentz> it's Janette Scott
2014-06-07 19:16:56 : <Kevin> OK, I can't find a picture of it, but in the Logan's Run TV series, one cast member was an android named "Rem" and he had "Rem's universal tool" which did whatever was required by the plot, and which was an open, open, open ripoff of the Sonic Screwdriver from Who. "How open" you ask? It was a tuning fork with four calculator buttons glued on to it.
2014-06-07 19:17:05 : <Kevin> Can't get much more 'sonic' than that.
2014-06-07 19:17:10 : <fredskuentz> "and I really got hot, when I saw Janette Scott, fight a Triffid that spits poison and kills"
2014-06-07 19:17:25 : <Kevin> Can't get much more 'sonic' than that.'
2014-06-07 19:17:35 : <Hippy> Donald Moffat, of 'The Thing' fame. And Heather Menzies
2014-06-07 19:17:36 : <Kevin> sorry, dunno why that repeated.
2014-06-07 19:18:00 : <senax> ISTR the Sandmen had neat guns that fired multiple types of projectiles.
2014-06-07 19:18:18 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 19:18:24 : <Hippy> In the book, yes
2014-06-07 19:18:38 : <senax> One of the few things I remembered from Logan's Run.
2014-06-07 19:18:42 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 19:19:02 : <Kevin> Anyway, "Logan" was shot a good 30 minutes longer than it ended up being, and was pretty savagely cut. Most of the cut footage is just completely gone, they made no effort to save most of it. Though exactly how much remains is unclear. Among the cut scenes was a five minute bit where Jenny/Jessica just poses for Box for like 5 minutes while he carves an ice sculpture of her.
2014-06-07 19:19:07 : <Dan> TV series rather than the original movie, ut still cool.
2014-06-07 19:19:11 : <Lensman> Fred is correct about THE ANDROMEDA STRAIN, the book. At the end it has (as I said) mutated to a non-lethal form, and the scientists speculate "We suspect ultimately it will migrate out of the atmosphere, since there's too much oxygen down here." Which is a pretty stupid thing to say about an organism which just drifts wherever the wind carries it.
2014-06-07 19:20:02 : <fredskuentz> TAS is one of those movies that's swell if you haven't read the book
2014-06-07 19:20:05 : <Lensman> So for once, changing the ending for the movie actually makes it more plausible.
2014-06-07 19:20:05 : <Kevin> Oooh! Speaking of the Sandman pistols
2014-06-07 19:20:07 : <fredskuentz> like Jurassic Park
2014-06-07 19:20:26 : <fredskuentz> hey, they just played Shatner's line that I got cut from the Director's Edition :D
2014-06-07 19:20:45 : <Dan> Kevin, some of that footage shows up on the Logan's Run DVD. Jenny Agutar nude, and all. WHEW! Is it hot in here, or is it just me? :)
2014-06-07 19:21:20 : <fredskuentz> so here's a logan's run question
2014-06-07 19:21:25 : <fredskuentz> that dating thing
2014-06-07 19:21:31 : <fredskuentz> is that a conveyor belt?
2014-06-07 19:21:32 : <Hippy> The version we got South of the equator certainly had the nude Jenny in it - as did American Werewolf in London five years later
2014-06-07 19:21:39 : <fredskuentz> do they have transporter tech?
2014-06-07 19:22:01 : "ronn" left the channel.
2014-06-07 19:22:06 : <Hippy> They do have transporter tech over short distances, it seems
2014-06-07 19:22:25 : <Hippy> And your next answer is, yes, Goodman was a hack
2014-06-07 19:22:27 : <fredskuentz> so, just for fun, you beam into multiple living rooms?
2014-06-07 19:22:29 : <Dan> They had some form of teleport, yes. Maybe not Trek transports, but still a functional teleport.
2014-06-07 19:22:30 : <Lensman> The pilot of "Next Gen" starts with exactly the sort of Inquisition thing Fred is complaining about. A super-powerful alien (Q) coming down from on high to, literally, sit in judgement on humans. Made me hate the show right out of the starting gate.
2014-06-07 19:22:31 : <senax> They do?
2014-06-07 19:22:33 : <Kevin> They call it "The Circuit" which suggests they transport using cables.
2014-06-07 19:22:42 : <fredskuentz> wait, what?
2014-06-07 19:22:46 : <Kevin> I should mention the movie only bears a slight resemblance to the Logan's Run novel.
2014-06-07 19:22:51 : <fredskuentz> what inquisition am I complaining about?
2014-06-07 19:23:12 : <Hippy> That was Kevin, Lens
2014-06-07 19:23:18 : <fredskuentz> And, you have done a horrible thing
2014-06-07 19:23:28 : <fredskuentz> you are making me defend ENCOUNTER AT FARPOINT
2014-06-07 19:23:34 : <fredskuentz> and I HATE encounter at farpoint
2014-06-07 19:23:48 : <Dan> Actually, the movie is one of the few that I thought turned out better than the original novel. Logan's Run is unique in my experience per that respect.
2014-06-07 19:24:04 : <fredskuentz> the reason for the Q sequence is, Paramount kept dicking Rodenberry around about running time
2014-06-07 19:24:10 : <fredskuentz> 1 hour, 90 minutes, 2 hoursa
2014-06-07 19:24:13 : <Kevin> Oh. "Godlike alien entitiy" episodes. I generally hate those. The only significant exceptions being B5, where the Godlike Entities either (A) have no interest in us (B) are manipulating us for their own selfish ends or (C) are just trying to give advice. Not a lot of judgement there.
2014-06-07 19:24:18 : <fredskuentz> it kept going back and forth
2014-06-07 19:24:22 : <Hippy> Hmm. Interesting, Dan
2014-06-07 19:24:25 : <fredskuentz> so they wrote the Q stuff as padding
2014-06-07 19:24:32 : <Lensman> What amazes me about LOGAN's RUN is that the author was able to take a mediocre (at best), hackneyed SF story, and make an entire career off it.
2014-06-07 19:24:36 : <senax> I always hated Q.
2014-06-07 19:24:46 : <fredskuentz> so if it went back from 2 hours to 90 minutes, Q could just be cut
2014-06-07 19:24:54 : <fredskuentz> senax, yes, but ...
2014-06-07 19:25:08 : <fredskuentz> imagine how totally deadly ENCOUNTER AT FARPOINT would be without Q?
2014-06-07 19:25:38 : <Hippy> Exactly, Fred. Also, Q is good in 'Voyager'
2014-06-07 19:26:05 : <fredskuentz> my friend, who says that TMP was the best Trek Trek movie, says that if FARPOINT was called BATTLESTAR GALACTICA THE NEXT GENERATION it would have never had an episode 2
2014-06-07 19:26:09 : <senax> Sorry, I only saw about half of the TNG episodes, and don't remember all that much from the ones I did see.
2014-06-07 19:26:14 : <fredskuentz> Hippy, Q is in DS9
2014-06-07 19:26:14 : <Dan> Losing John DeLancie (sp?) as an ACTOR would be criminal. Losing Q as a character would be far less tragic.
2014-06-07 19:26:24 : <fredskuentz> and Sisko punched him right in the mouth
2014-06-07 19:26:25 : <fredskuentz> :)
2014-06-07 19:26:30 : <Lensman> It was Kevin complaining about Inquisition Trek episodes? Sorry.
2014-06-07 19:26:35 : <fredskuentz> I love that scene
2014-06-07 19:26:48 : <Hippy> Okay, I smell tea a-cooking, and I will shortly be summoned to eat it, so befoer I head off for the remainder of the financial year, where can I find your story, Kevin?
2014-06-07 19:26:52 : <fredskuentz> except for the 'why doesn't Q obliterate them all' part
2014-06-07 19:27:27 : <fredskuentz> Kevin's story:
2014-06-07 19:27:28 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 19:27:28 : <Lensman> Well, I did like "The Squire of Gothos". There was a reason the god-like being was actually interested in lowly mortal humans; because he was a child. The rest of those... yeah, you have to wonder why they'd bother. Would we bother to "sit in judgement" on ants? Not likely.
2014-06-07 19:27:38 : <Kevin> Depends. Which story are you looking for, Hippy?
2014-06-07 19:27:45 : <Kevin> I got a bunch.
2014-06-07 19:27:46 : <fredskuentz> he was looking for kevin
2014-06-07 19:27:50 : <fredskuentz> :)
2014-06-07 19:28:06 : <Kevin> Oh. You can find it there.
2014-06-07 19:28:22 : <fredskuentz> Lens, of course they got Gothos from Infant Terrible, probably the FANTASTIC FOUR version
2014-06-07 19:28:35 : <fredskuentz> and they got Q from Gothos
2014-06-07 19:28:43 : <fredskuentz> but changed the name so as to not pay royalties
2014-06-07 19:28:47 : <Kevin>
2014-06-07 19:29:11 : <Kevin> Grrr. Stupid computer. Sorry again for the double post.
2014-06-07 19:29:15 : <Hippy> The one Larry commented on, Kevin
2014-06-07 19:29:21 : <fredskuentz> oh, that one?
2014-06-07 19:29:22 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 19:29:29 : <Kevin> Yeah, I just gave the link. Here it is again
2014-06-07 19:29:37 : <fredskuentz> hee hee hee
guffaws until he stops
2014-06-07 19:30:14 : <Kevin> Q would be a wasted character if played by anyone other than John DeLancie.
2014-06-07 19:30:19 : <fredskuentz> hey, at least I'm not PMing it to you hippy
2014-06-07 19:30:28 : <Kevin> If he'd been played by anyone else, we'd never have seen him again.
2014-06-07 19:30:29 : <Hippy> I'll check it out after tea, or I may be back here. I'm a man of manyny moods
2014-06-07 19:30:58 : <Hippy> Until then, Niven fans :)
2014-06-07 19:31:04 : "Hippy" left the channel.
2014-06-07 19:31:05 : <Kevin> He was also one of the few good things about the later years of "Andromeda" and...a little bit disappointing on Stargate: SG1.
2014-06-07 19:31:16 : <Kevin> I never really felt they quite dialed him in as a villain there.
2014-06-07 19:31:19 : <fredskuentz> Q was on Andromeda?
2014-06-07 19:31:25 : <fredskuentz> I watched that to the bitter end
2014-06-07 19:31:31 : <Lensman> Fred: I think fans do far too much of the "Oh, it's similar to X, they obviously ripped off X" complaints. Just because "Squire" has some superficial resemblence to the "Infant Terrible" Fantastic Four sequence, doesn't mean it was inspired by that... let alone a "ripoff". Sometimes similarities are coincidence. Other times they are conscious homages. The"Ripoff" label should be reserved for when it's actually deserved.
2014-06-07 19:31:32 : <fredskuentz> but I've blocked out much of it
2014-06-07 19:31:33 : <Kevin> Yeah, he was Becka's uncle.
2014-06-07 19:31:42 : <Dan> I remember DeLancie from his days as a Soap Opera actor on US TV. And he was compelling even in that sea of medeocrity.
2014-06-07 19:31:52 : <Kevin> He was gunning for the job of "Triumvir" or whatever, and was evil.
2014-06-07 19:31:57 : "ronn" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 19:32:03 : <fredskuentz> god, the last season of Andromeda
2014-06-07 19:32:11 : <Lensman> In many cases, the fan making that complaint is entirely unaware that "X" is only the latest in a long series of similar stories, possibly going back to the Greek myths.
2014-06-07 19:32:14 : <fredskuentz> tied for the last season of Earth Final Conflict
2014-06-07 19:32:23 : <fredskuentz> for 'worst last season of any series ever'
2014-06-07 19:32:31 : <Dan> Ronn! There are seatbelts, you know!
2014-06-07 19:32:37 : <Kevin> Also: John DeLancie is the "Experiment in Terra" episode of the original Galactica. He has two scenes, one got cut, the other is him speaking over a megaphone but you can't see his face.
2014-06-07 19:33:27 : <fredskuentz> I still watch Lexa Doig on CONTINUUM and until last month ARCTIC AIR
2014-06-07 19:33:55 : <Lensman> I did find Q less abrasive in later appearances; obviously the writers responded to fan complaints about how much they disliked him. And yeah, I did get a vicarious thrill at seeing Q get punched in the face. Almost as good as seeing Ben Grimm get his hands on Doc Doom's gauntlest, and squeeze 'till it hurt... quite a lot!
2014-06-07 19:34:01 : <Kevin> Oh, there's so many 'worst last seasons.' Season 4 of BSG retroactively destroyed the entire series. Season 5 of Andromeda and Earth were excruciatingly awful, but Earth FC was so unwatchably bad anyway. The final season of b5 wasn't exactly awful, but really only the last 7 eps were any good, and by then even I'd stopped caring.
2014-06-07 19:34:38 : <Kevin> The last season of Chuck was really, really, really bad.
2014-06-07 19:34:43 : <senax> Time for me to put the computer aside and do something about dinner.
2014-06-07 19:34:44 : <Kevin> Last season of Get Smart.
2014-06-07 19:34:49 : <Dan> Season 3 of Lost in Space? GAHK!
2014-06-07 19:34:54 : <fredskuentz> Dan
2014-06-07 19:34:55 : <fredskuentz> um
2014-06-07 19:34:56 : <fredskuentz> no
2014-06-07 19:35:01 : <Kevin> Better than season 2, though.
2014-06-07 19:35:04 : <senax> Bye.
2014-06-07 19:35:04 : <fredskuentz> Season 3 of LIS was *vasty
2014-06-07 19:35:05 : <fredskuentz> yes
2014-06-07 19:35:11 : <fredskuentz> what Kevin said
2014-06-07 19:35:16 : <Lensman> A lot of people say that the final episode of New Testament Battlestar Galactica ruined it for them. I can still enjoy the older episodes, but certainly it was a disappointment that it all led up to that fizzle-out of an ending.
2014-06-07 19:35:17 : <fredskuentz> season 2 is the low point of LIS
2014-06-07 19:35:37 : <Kevin> Can I tell you something that drives me nuts?
2014-06-07 19:35:40 : <fredskuentz> LIS is one of the few show in history that bottomed out and then got better
2014-06-07 19:35:46 : <fredskuentz> go for it KL
2014-06-07 19:36:14 : <Lensman> And I can pretty much ignore season 4 of BSG, thank you very much.
2014-06-07 19:36:29 : <fredskuentz> Lens, you get *so* many bonus points for Ben crushing Victor's hands
2014-06-07 19:36:40 : <Dan> Not from the POV of a kid that saw the first run of the series, Fred. Season 3 was nasty, season 1 was rough, Season 2 was polished-but beginning-to-be-silly.
2014-06-07 19:36:58 : <fredskuentz> Season 2? The Questing Beast???
2014-06-07 19:37:02 : <Lensman> "Stargate" certainly went on far longer than it should have. I think it was very good in the first few seasons, but they went about 3 seasons too long.
2014-06-07 19:37:09 : <fredskuentz> Space Vikings?
2014-06-07 19:37:15 : <fredskuentz> there's not a good ep in season 2
2014-06-07 19:37:21 : <fredskuentz> 3 has THE ANTI MATTER MAN
2014-06-07 19:37:25 : <Lensman> Fred: :) Bonus points! :)
2014-06-07 19:37:26 : <fredskuentz> it wins on that alone
2014-06-07 19:37:28 : <fredskuentz> :)
2014-06-07 19:37:59 : <Kevin> The Trekies claiming LIS was a rip off of Trek.
2014-06-07 19:38:03 : <Kevin> Drives me crazy.
2014-06-07 19:38:14 : <fredskuentz> I like Stargate SG1 (the 'SG' stands for: STARGATE!) once they got rid of Jack
2014-06-07 19:38:20 : <Kevin> LIS had already been on the air a year before Trek.
2014-06-07 19:38:21 : <fredskuentz> he was getting awfully tired
2014-06-07 19:38:21 : <Lensman> I never saw an episode of "Lost in Space" that I thought was any better than drek, so I'm not with you on 3rd season being worse.
2014-06-07 19:38:24 : <fredskuentz> Kevin
2014-06-07 19:38:30 : <Dan> I remember every episode as if they were first-run just yesterday. My juvinile self's opinion still stands. Season 1 = good drama, season 2= jumping the shark, season 3 = milking the shark that had been jumpped.
2014-06-07 19:38:32 : <fredskuentz> there's a good reason for thta
2014-06-07 19:38:34 : <fredskuentz> that
2014-06-07 19:38:48 : <fredskuentz> Roddenberry pitched Trek to CBS before they started on LIS
2014-06-07 19:38:56 : <fredskuentz> they pumped him for everything they could
2014-06-07 19:39:06 : <fredskuentz> and then tossed it at LIS
2014-06-07 19:39:15 : <Kevin> Added to which, Irwin Allen had 3 SF shows running concurrently and a 4th on the way, all on CBS. They didn't need any input from Roddenberry.
2014-06-07 19:39:20 : <Lensman> LOL! LIS was a ripoff of Trek. Sure, the way that Trek was a ripoff of Star Wars. :)
2014-06-07 19:39:25 : <fredskuentz> remember Guy William's ships log that they dropped early?
2014-06-07 19:39:56 : <fredskuentz> CBS *tried* to rip off trek for LIS
2014-06-07 19:39:59 : <Dan> Yeah, and the overtly Xian elements that got lost mid-1st season.
2014-06-07 19:40:04 : <fredskuentz> I'd say they pretty much failed though
2014-06-07 19:40:12 : <Kevin> That's debatable, actually. Desilu pitched it around, but the exact date of LIS is unclear since it had been discussed for more than a year before it went into produciton. And it clearly was not borrowing from any hypothetical Trek pitch.
2014-06-07 19:40:23 : <fredskuentz> lol, Dan, wtf, a Xian burial for a food processor unit?
2014-06-07 19:40:26 : <Lensman> But "Trek" was pitched as "Wagon Train to the stars"! Which is exactly what "Battlestar Galactica" was, and Trek was not at all.
2014-06-07 19:40:31 : <fredskuentz> they're praying for a FOOD PROCESSOR UNIT????
2014-06-07 19:40:31 : <Kevin> It was "Swiss Family Robinson in Outer Space." There's your pitch.
2014-06-07 19:40:43 : <fredskuentz> or SPACE FAMILY ROBINSON
2014-06-07 19:40:45 : <fredskuentz> ahem
2014-06-07 19:41:07 : <Dan> Prayers for surviving various hazards, in at least the first half of the first season.
2014-06-07 19:41:44 : <Dan> Even as a kid, I remember that going on to interrupt the drama.
2014-06-07 19:41:47 : <Kevin> I hate it when they claim everything good in the world had to spew from Roddenberry's temple.
2014-06-07 19:41:49 : <Kevin> .
2014-06-07 19:42:11 : <Lensman> Space family Robinson. Wasn't that the way it was pitched? Right down to the Robinson family name, that's obviously what it was intended to be, and without Dr. Smith, what it would have been.
2014-06-07 19:42:26 : <Kevin> Anyway: I didn't think Stargate ran too long. I think they easily had more years in it. Though the final 2 seasons were intended initially as a new spinoff called "Stargate: Command."
2014-06-07 19:42:42 : <fredskuentz> Lensman, you do realize the SPACE FAMILY ROBINSON comic precedes the TV show?
2014-06-07 19:42:50 : <fredskuentz> and, yes, it was actually titled that originally
2014-06-07 19:42:50 : <Dan> Yeah, Dr. Smith wasn't even in the pilot ep, but was added for the 2nd pilot.
2014-06-07 19:43:00 : <Lensman> Fred: I did not, thanks.
2014-06-07 19:43:03 : <Kevin> Irwin Allen bought the rights to the comic.
2014-06-07 19:43:05 : <fredskuentz> and they had to make a deal with the comic company 'cause they ripped them off
2014-06-07 19:43:20 : <Lensman> Never heard of that comic.
2014-06-07 19:43:34 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 19:43:35 : <Kevin> It was kind of coincidental. Irwin wanted to do "Space Family Robinson," and was rather surprised that someone had already had the idea.
2014-06-07 19:43:41 : <fredskuentz> maybe
2014-06-07 19:43:45 : <fredskuentz> Irwin wasn't real original
2014-06-07 19:43:52 : <Dan> The comic actually was more entertaining than it has been given credit for, but also totally different from the TV show.
2014-06-07 19:43:58 : <Kevin> No, he was not.
2014-06-07 19:44:12 : <Kevin> Better than Glen Larson, of course, but that's not saying much.
2014-06-07 19:44:28 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 19:44:39 : <fredskuentz> that's the ship a lot of us were waiting for
2014-06-07 19:44:39 : "Kevin" left the channel.
2014-06-07 19:44:45 : "Kevin" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 19:44:51 : "Kevin" left the channel.
2014-06-07 19:45:03 : <Dan> Larson actually made good pilot eps for crappy series. But even he had the occasional winner.
2014-06-07 19:45:08 : <fredskuentz> hey
2014-06-07 19:45:10 : <fredskuentz> did you see
2014-06-07 19:45:17 : <fredskuentz> Larson is making a BSG movie?
2014-06-07 19:45:23 : <fredskuentz> and it's not based on EITHER version?
2014-06-07 19:45:28 : <fredskuentz> wtf?
2014-06-07 19:45:28 : <Lensman> I have no problem at all believing somebody else came up with the same concept. The same story set in space, instead of the older frontier of an earth that was not (in previous centuries) entirely explored, is hardly a difficult idea to come up with. Look at "Robinson Carusoe on Mars" (sp?)
2014-06-07 19:45:44 : <fredskuentz> and treasure planet
2014-06-07 19:45:54 : <fredskuentz> they were going to do a whole batch of such shows
2014-06-07 19:46:13 : <fredskuentz> I've seen the prospectuses
2014-06-07 19:46:16 : <fredskuentz> prospecti?
2014-06-07 19:46:36 : <Dan> Starring Batman actor Adam West?
2014-06-07 19:46:49 : <fredskuentz> briefly starring :)
2014-06-07 19:47:01 : <fredskuentz> and I'm going on record
2014-06-07 19:47:12 : <fredskuentz> Batman 1966 is still the best Batman movie ever made
2014-06-07 19:47:14 : <fredskuentz> there
2014-06-07 19:47:15 : <fredskuentz> I said it
2014-06-07 19:47:18 : <Dan> Not CD? LOL!
2014-06-07 19:48:56 : <fredskuentz> HEY LENSMAN
2014-06-07 19:48:56 : "ronn" left the channel.
2014-06-07 19:48:59 : <fredskuentz> TAKE THIS
2014-06-07 19:48:59 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 19:49:23 : <NickE> damn what a chat - I couldnt really keep up - and cant keep eyes open, headingto bed. fare wel folks
2014-06-07 19:49:27 : <Dan> OK, going offline to spend time with my wife. Thanks for a lovely day, Gentlemen!
2014-06-07 19:49:42 : <fredskuentz> Nicke @ night
2014-06-07 19:49:50 : <NickE> night Dan
2014-06-07 19:49:54 : <fredskuentz> U2 Dan
2014-06-07 19:49:55 : <NickE> night Fred
2014-06-07 19:50:02 : "Dan" left the channel.
2014-06-07 19:50:20 : "NickE" left the channel.
2014-06-07 19:50:46 : <Lensman> Hmmm, yes, I wouldn't say Adam West "starred" in "Robinson Carusoe" (How -do- you spell that?) A minor role, hardly more than a cameo.
2014-06-07 19:50:58 : <fredskuentz> Crusoe
2014-06-07 19:51:31 : <Lensman> Yes, thanks Fred.
2014-06-07 19:51:40 : <fredskuentz>
2014-06-07 19:51:49 : "Kevin" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 19:51:55 : <fredskuentz> Hey Kevin
2014-06-07 19:52:01 : <Lensman> Sigh. Too late to say "bye" to Dan.
2014-06-07 19:52:08 : <Kevin> Hey. Sorry about that.
2014-06-07 19:52:11 : <Kevin> Goodbye Dan.
2014-06-07 19:52:14 : <fredskuentz> Not too late to say 'hi' to Kevin
2014-06-07 19:52:20 : <Kevin> Actually, it kinda' is.
2014-06-07 19:52:32 : <Kevin>'re welcome?
2014-06-07 19:52:38 : <Kevin> "Thanks" for what?
2014-06-07 19:53:03 : <Lensman> Thanks for coming. Thanks for an enjoyable chat. Thanks for reminding me about old times.
2014-06-07 19:53:05 : <fredskuentz> all the fish
2014-06-07 19:53:24 : <Lensman> Yeah, and all the fish. Thanks for enriching my life.
2014-06-07 19:54:06 : <Kevin> Oh, hey, sure, anytime. Fish are great. Not as great as when he was with Marillion, but still: pretty great
2014-06-07 19:54:16 : <Kevin> But actually I need to go as well.
2014-06-07 19:54:25 : <Kevin> Nice talking to all you guys, and thanks for inviting me!
2014-06-07 19:54:39 : <Lensman> Then my advance "Bye" was well timed... for once!
2014-06-07 19:54:51 : <Lensman> We're here every month, Kevin. Hope to see you again.
2014-06-07 19:55:22 : "Kevin" left the channel.
2014-06-07 19:55:44 : <fredskuentz> I'm glad he got to talk to Larry
2014-06-07 19:55:57 : <fredskuentz> he was absolutely giddy that LN liked his story
2014-06-07 19:55:57 : <fredskuentz> :)
2014-06-07 19:56:08 : <Lensman> I would be too!
2014-06-07 19:56:18 : <fredskuentz> and yay that marilyn kept her leg!
2014-06-07 19:56:35 : <Lensman> ??
2014-06-07 19:56:38 : <fredskuentz> last we heard, they were teaching her to hop
2014-06-07 19:56:57 : <fredskuentz> fuzzy pink niven had a recurring infection in her knee
2014-06-07 19:57:06 : <fredskuentz> she's been in a care facility for months
2014-06-07 19:57:12 : <fredskuentz> larry's fending for himself
2014-06-07 19:57:30 : <fredskuentz> we've been scared to ask and scared to not ask
2014-06-07 19:57:31 : <Lensman> Ah, thanks. I do recall Larry saying something about that, but I've missed too many chats. :(
2014-06-07 19:57:47 : <fredskuentz> 2 months ago he said she might lose it
2014-06-07 19:57:55 : <fredskuentz> and last month he didn't address it
2014-06-07 19:58:02 : <fredskuentz> so 'new knee' was good news
2014-06-07 19:58:27 : <fredskuentz> compared to the alternatives
2014-06-07 19:58:28 : <Lensman> I guess I missed that. I got pretty active in chat earlier, I couldn't keep up.
2014-06-07 19:58:47 : <fredskuentz> somebody finally broke down and asked how she was doing
2014-06-07 19:58:55 : <Lensman> I mean IT got pretty active... altho the other it true too. :)
2014-06-07 19:59:34 : <Lensman> Second time I've had to copy chat into my word processor and read it there because it kept scrolling down when I was trying to scroll back to read what I missed.
2014-06-07 19:59:39 : <fredskuentz> it's amazing that she's been in a care facility for months
2014-06-07 19:59:55 : <fredskuentz> with a damned knee infection
2014-06-07 20:02:03 : <Lensman> Maybe one of those antibiotic-resistant strains? But yeah, it is remarkable that it would go in for months without either healing up or getting so bad they'd decide to amputate.
2014-06-07 20:03:54 : <Lensman> That is one bad thing about Eris. It only holds so many lines of chat, after that you can't scroll up to see it anymore. It would be nice now that things have slowed down, if I could scroll back to see what I missed, but I can't scroll back that far.
2014-06-07 20:03:57 : <fredskuentz> hey, I got conscripted into Obamacare this week :)
2014-06-07 20:04:21 : <fredskuentz> yeah, limechat only buffers X amount too
2014-06-07 20:04:31 : <Lensman> Uh-oh... I sense a political rant coming...
2014-06-07 20:04:44 : <fredskuentz> well, more healthcare than political
2014-06-07 20:04:54 : <fredskuentz> it's so awful that it's funny
2014-06-07 20:05:14 : <fredskuentz> on wednesday they told me to pick a doctor
2014-06-07 20:05:30 : <fredskuentz> on friday I got the email that they'd picked one for me
2014-06-07 20:05:35 : <fredskuentz> sorry
2014-06-07 20:05:38 : <fredskuentz> snail mail
2014-06-07 20:05:50 : <fredskuentz> she's 20 miles away
2014-06-07 20:06:39 : <fredskuentz> and you have a choice of Hindi, Italian, Spanish, or Chinese
2014-06-07 20:06:46 : <fredskuentz> no English
2014-06-07 20:06:56 : <Lensman> Health care, like anything else, is a limited resource. That's the real problem with VA waiting time. I think the ranks of VA patients have swelled something like 500%? Unless they increased the number of VA hospitals and doctors to match, there's no way that waiting times would -not- go up tremendously. So even if they fix the problem with red tape, they still have a limited resource problem. Of course, nobody wants to hear that. We
2014-06-07 20:07:04 : <fredskuentz> and she's affiliated with the hospital that killed Frank
2014-06-07 20:07:52 : <fredskuentz> I'm going to have to get a lawyer and go to hearings to get out of it
2014-06-07 20:08:44 : <fredskuentz> so I can go to my nice English speaking doctor that's walking distance
2014-06-07 20:09:18 : <Lensman> My mom tutored a Chinese doctor, to improve his English. Couldn't practice medicine here, he didn't have certification in the USA. He was working with a team doing AIDS research. Original research, apparently, from what he said. They still sent him back to China when his work visa ran out. Couldn't get an extension. Stupid.
2014-06-07 20:11:19 : <fredskuentz> English doesn't seem to be a requirement here.
2014-06-07 20:11:24 : <Lensman> I'd have no problem with a "Hindi" doctor, so long as they can speak passable English. I think the last time I went to my family practice, I was seen by an Indian doctor. Odd how there seems to be "time sharing" among doctors in what started out as a family practice office/clinic.
2014-06-07 20:12:08 : <fredskuentz> I've seen a Hindi doctor before, but she spoke english. this isn't even a list language for this one.
2014-06-07 20:12:24 : <fredskuentz> and their recordings about themselves are computer voice generated.
2014-06-07 20:12:58 : <fredskuentz> and she's in a bad section of another city where I would, shall we say, 'stand out'
2014-06-07 20:13:31 : <Lensman> Of course, it is preferable if you can stick with one doctor, so long as he's competent to practice medicine. I admit I'm not to happy at the "musical chairs" thing, and I'm not (yet) on Medicare or any other form of guv'mint health care. I'm now looking forward to that, approaching retirement age...
2014-06-07 20:13:53 : <fredskuentz> as I say, they conscripted me
2014-06-07 20:13:58 : <fredskuentz> I didn't sign up for any of this
2014-06-07 20:14:26 : <fredskuentz> the main thing is to make sure it doesn't foul up my actual health insurance
2014-06-07 20:14:44 : <Lensman> Well, I'm sorry to hear about your troubles, Fred, and I hope you can get it worked out without actually having to pay a lawyer enormous fees. Hopefully just a letter will do the trick.
2014-06-07 20:15:05 : <fredskuentz> the procedure is 'lawyer and hearing'
2014-06-07 20:15:09 : <fredskuentz> that's what they say to do
2014-06-07 20:15:23 : <fredskuentz> but they're assuming you're trying to fight your way IN to the program
2014-06-07 20:15:25 : <fredskuentz> not out :F
2014-06-07 20:15:27 : <fredskuentz> :)
2014-06-07 20:15:44 : <fredskuentz> I'm really not indigent
2014-06-07 20:15:48 : <fredskuentz> or penniless
2014-06-07 20:15:55 : <fredskuentz> or non english speaking
2014-06-07 20:16:25 : <Lensman> I once had an insurance company try to deny me coverage after an accident. I was late on my latest payment. But they did accept the payment when I sent it in. Fortunately a lawyer who was a family friend sent the insurance co. a letter for me as a favor to the family, so I didn' have to pay anything, and it took care of the matter.
2014-06-07 20:16:31 : <fredskuentz> or interested in traveling 20 miles to a bad part of another city to see a doctor
2014-06-07 20:17:09 : <Lensman> Let me clarify: I -had- sent the payment in before the accident, but it was late.
2014-06-07 20:19:39 : <Lensman> Guess it depends on where you live. Here in Greater Kansas City, which is pretty spread out, driving for 20 miles to a doctor wouldn't be unusual. Driving to the "bad part of town", now... that would be unacceptable for quite a large percentage of people.
2014-06-07 20:20:33 : <fredskuentz> I'd have to drive past hundreds of medical offices, dozens of urgent cares, and a couple hospitals to get there
2014-06-07 20:21:07 : <fredskuentz> that I know of
2014-06-07 20:21:09 : <fredskuentz> :D
2014-06-07 20:22:57 : <fredskuentz> seems ... inefficient
2014-06-07 20:25:33 : <Lensman> Well, Fred, I think I'll sign off. Other things to do this evening. Thank you once again for an interesting and entertaining chat, and for being our master of trivia... Trek and otherwise!
2014-06-07 20:26:01 : "Lensman" left the channel.
2014-06-07 20:42:14 : "ronn" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 20:42:42 : <ronn> Well, that was a pain in some part of the anatomy.
2014-06-07 20:43:12 : <ronn> Hello? Anyone still here?
2014-06-07 20:49:04 : <fredskuentz> nope
2014-06-07 20:49:05 : <fredskuentz> all gone
2014-06-07 20:49:12 : <fredskuentz> :)
2014-06-07 20:49:20 : "Foremost" left the channel.
2014-06-07 20:49:46 : <fredskuentz> what pained your tookis?
2014-06-07 20:57:27 : <ronn> Whatever put my chat session into "timeout . . . claim to be reconnecting . . . lather, rinse, repeat" mode . . . when I tried I couldn't get it to take the reconnect commands or much of anything else . . . eventually everything crashed with a BSOD and I had to wait for it to reboot and finish all the garbage until I could try again from scratch.
2014-06-07 20:59:11 : <ronn> Somebody made a comment about "seatbelts" I saw in passing: does that mean there's a command to tell it to stay connected no matter what (until I explicitly tell it to quit) and if so what could that be?
2014-06-07 21:14:01 : "Hippy" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 21:14:19 : <Hippy> And back
2014-06-07 21:14:50 : <Hippy> I'm not sure who's still actually here, but I thought I'd drop in to see
2014-06-07 21:15:29 : <Hippy> Nobody? No?
2014-06-07 21:15:39 : <Hippy> Until July...
2014-06-07 21:15:50 : "Hippy" left the channel.
2014-06-07 21:33:45 : "Jim" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 21:34:32 : "ronn" left the channel.
2014-06-07 21:42:50 : "ronn" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 21:43:23 : "Jim" left the channel.
2014-06-07 21:46:41 : "ronn" left the channel.
2014-06-07 21:46:53 : "ronn" joined the channel.
2014-06-07 21:48:48 : "ronn_" joined the channel.
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2014-06-07 21:53:34 : <fredskuentz> AFAIK seatbelts is just a joke
2014-06-07 22:29:58 : "ronn_" joined the channel.
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2014-06-07 23:03:16 : <fredskuentz> It's Ronn!