Chat Log: January 3rd, 2009

Jan 03 13:23:02 <NickE> early check in, may be in and out. Evenin'!

Jan 03 13:30:09 * Lensman_Free (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 13:37:24 * Jim (~chatzilla@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 13:37:38 <Jim> anyone home

Jan 03 13:37:43 <Jim> ?

Jan 03 13:38:27 <Lensman_Free> Hello Jim.

Jan 03 13:38:37 * Lensman_Free is now known as Lensman

Jan 03 13:39:11 <Jim> \topic

Jan 03 13:39:44 <Lensman> I think Sean disabled the "change topic" command.

Jan 03 13:41:16 <NickE> eating. bbl

Jan 03 13:42:27 <Lensman> Hi Nick. Bye Nick.

Jan 03 13:48:06 * Poindexter_ (~matthewcannon_@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 13:48:44 * dizzy has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Jan 03 13:51:14 <Lensman> Hi Poindexter. Bye dizzy.

Jan 03 13:53:44 <Lensman> poindexter (definition) "the professer from felix the cat but everyone uses his name for mockery of nerds and boffins "

Jan 03 13:54:34 <Lensman> Interesting, I used to watch Felix the Cat when I was quite young. Maybe a different incarnation of Felix, tho. All I remember is Felix' magic bag of tricks, I don't remember any professor.

Jan 03 13:54:42 <Jim> to the american ear, the word boffin appears to be vaguely related to masturbation

Jan 03 13:55:11 <Jim> Felix the Cat or Fritz the Cat?

Jan 03 13:55:53 <Lensman> I dunno, that's just what I copied from the Urban Dictionary site.

Jan 03 13:56:14 <Poindexter_> Whoops

Jan 03 13:56:17 * Poindexter_ is now known as dizzy

Jan 03 13:56:23 <Lensman> I was hoping Poindex himself would enlighten us as to the signifiance of his handle?

Jan 03 13:56:33 <dizzy> I'm on a super slow internet connection in Germany, and I pinged out

Jan 03 13:56:53 <dizzy> Someone called me a Poindexter in school one day

Jan 03 13:56:54 <Jim> I'm so dizzy...

Jan 03 13:56:55 <dizzy> And it stuck

Jan 03 13:57:08 <dizzy> (Exciting story I know)

Jan 03 13:57:16 <Lensman> Sounds like it's just another synonym for geek or nerd?

Jan 03 13:57:51 <dizzy> I guess. I'm the complete polar opposite of a nerd so I have no idea why they would call me that.

Jan 03 13:58:11 <Lensman> Are you new here, dizzy?

Jan 03 13:58:16 <dizzy> Although I can't really say I'm not a nerd since I'm sitting here in a chat room on the internet for a series of books I like to read.

Jan 03 13:58:26 <Lazy8> So we have the offical announcement for "The Doctor #11" I give you a young unknown Matt Smith.

Jan 03 13:58:31 <Lensman> LOL! I was refraining from pointing that out.

Jan 03 13:58:33 <dizzy> I guess you could say I'm new. I've been in and out of here for about two weeks now, but no one is ever here.

Jan 03 13:58:51 <Lensman> Altho I guess not every Niven fan is a geek. *I* certainly am!

Jan 03 13:58:54 <dizzy> I've also got another tab open for the chat so.

Jan 03 13:59:00 <Jim> Lazy8: do you have a URL with a picture?

Jan 03 13:59:10 <dizzy> If you saw me walking around you probably wouldn't think I'm a geek.

Jan 03 13:59:26 <dizzy> Or that I even read.

Jan 03 13:59:30 <dizzy> Or that I even know how to read.

Jan 03 13:59:33 <Lazy8>

Jan 03 13:59:53 <Lazy8> And the normal geek chanels as well.

Jan 03 14:00:23 <Lensman> Dizzy, this is the chat room for the officially-unoffical Niven Chat, which occurs the first Saturday of every month. That being today. Stick around and if you're lucky, you can hobnob with Mr. Niven himself.

Jan 03 14:00:51 <dizzy> Yea I heard about the Saturday thing not too long ago.

Jan 03 14:01:06 <Lazy8> organlegger actual? The recluse himself.

Jan 03 14:01:08 <dizzy> Sean was telling me about it, maybe a week ago.

Jan 03 14:01:26 <dizzy> It's kind of funny, I haven't even really read any known space books.

Jan 03 14:01:29 <Lensman> I do hear from others that they do drop in here from time to time, but today is likely the only day of the month when you'll see much activity.

Jan 03 14:01:31 <dizzy> Just the Ringworld series

Jan 03 14:01:45 <Lensman> He signs on as Organlegger or Larry.

Jan 03 14:01:51 <dizzy> And the first and second books in the Man/Kzin Wars

Jan 03 14:02:15 <Lazy8> Ringworld series is just a SMALL part of the Known Space cycle.

Jan 03 14:02:16 <Lensman> The Ringworld books are part of the Known Space series.

Jan 03 14:02:34 <Lensman> The best known part.

Jan 03 14:02:34 <dizzy> Yea

Jan 03 14:03:08 <Lazy8> I want to see Carlos Wu as a Protector. Hard to write, but WOW!

Jan 03 14:03:48 <Lensman> I think his head would explode from the sheer power of genius. :D

Jan 03 14:04:16 <dizzy> I actually just finished Ringworld's Children today

Jan 03 14:04:22 <Lazy8> Yes, we must perserve the poor human Niven head.

Jan 03 14:04:46 <dizzy> I want a sequel

Jan 03 14:04:50 <Lensman> I do find it amazing how well Larry does at writing characters who are superhumanly smart. It's generally considered impossible for someone to write a character smarter than he/she is.

Jan 03 14:05:18 <dizzy> Seems to me he does it by not going into too much detail

Jan 03 14:05:29 <dizzy> From the Ringworld series anyway

Jan 03 14:05:39 <Lazy8> Well then why not write the Smartest grown into Adulthood. It would be amazing.

Jan 03 14:05:51 <Jim> Lensman: the trick is to write what they (geniuses) say and not what they think

Jan 03 14:06:19 <Lensman> Compare with, say, the stories in MKW IX with protectors, where they come across as nothing better than Motie warriors. That is, tough and fast but an ordinary human can out-think them.

Jan 03 14:07:08 <Lensman> You *have* read /The Mote in God's Eye/, I hope?

Jan 03 14:07:18 <Lazy8> Well a Human Protector can outhink a Pak with three lobes dorment ;)

Jan 03 14:07:49 <Lensman> Please... let's not get into the sillyness of five-lobed brains!

Jan 03 14:08:36 <Lazy8> Oh, ye has a problem with the 2 chambered groin heart as well I suppose.

Jan 03 14:08:47 <dizzy> I want to go to the Ringworld :(

Jan 03 14:09:42 <Lensman> I think the last time we discussed that, someone pointed out that dolphins half-sleep with one of their brain lobes active. I might believe that, but it's impossible to believe that Protector brains grow from two to five lobes. It's ridiculous AND it's unnecessary.

Jan 03 14:09:46 <dizzy> Even though he describes it in great detail, I can't picture the scale of it in my head.

Jan 03 14:10:58 <Lensman> I mean, it may be reasonable to stipulate that protectors sleep with one of their two lobes active. It does seem that Brennan-monster never fully slept. But maybe he was just very easily awakened, like a cat.

Jan 03 14:12:14 <Lensman> Yes, the human mind cannot really grasp something bigger than worlds. BTW that's the title of one of Larry's articles: "Bigger than Worlds".

Jan 03 14:13:08 <Lensman> I don't even think we can really grasp the size of the Earth, let alone Ringworld.

Jan 03 14:13:17 <dizzy> Yea

Jan 03 14:13:21 <Lazy8> Well as the Ringworld scale is "Hard" to grasp why not a conceptually supperior hominid?

Jan 03 14:13:41 <Lensman> 2-chambered groin heart? No, that's perfectly reasonable.

Jan 03 14:13:42 <dizzy> I try to imagine standing on a spill mountain and just seeing for thousands of miles

Jan 03 14:13:49 <Lazy8> LOL

Jan 03 14:14:16 <dizzy> Can't do it becuase I've seen the earth from high on a mountain in the poconos but I could only see for a few miles

Jan 03 14:14:25 <Lensman> Yeah, except in reality you can't see thru the air that far.

Jan 03 14:14:27 <dizzy> And it really gets on my nerves. Someone needs to make a Ringworld movie so I can see this.

Jan 03 14:14:44 <dizzy> Yea because of the curvature of the earth and the atmosphere and whatnot.

Jan 03 14:14:48 <Lazy8> With Anne Hathoway as Tela Brown.

Jan 03 14:14:58 <dizzy> Which is why I can't picture the Ringworld.

Jan 03 14:15:06 <Lensman> According to what I've read, the limit is about 200 miles from moutain-top to mountain-top.

Jan 03 14:15:19 <dizzy> With anyone as Teela Brown. I just want to see it.

Jan 03 14:15:36 <dizzy> I couldn't see 200 miles I'll tell you that.

Jan 03 14:15:57 <dizzy> I saw maybe 10-15

Jan 03 14:16:15 <Lensman> Well of course on the Ringworld the curvature of the planet is no barrier. But dust scatters light, so details fuzz out if you try to look thry several hundred miles thickness of atmosphere.

Jan 03 14:16:40 <Lensman> You can see the Colorado Rockies about 75 miles away as you drive West towards them from Kansas.

Jan 03 14:17:05 <Lazy8> It's inverse on the curve. You would be able to see further on the Ringworld in good atmosphere.

Jan 03 14:17:22 <Lensman> Get on top of a high mountain, you could see lots farther because less atmospheric haze between you and what you're trying to see.

Jan 03 14:18:40 <Lensman> Well on the Ringworld you can see what's high on the Arch, because the further up you look, the less air you're looking thru. But something just a few thousand miles away, impossible unless you're clear out of the atmosphere, like on top of the rim wall. Spill Mtns just are not high enough.

Jan 03 14:18:52 <dizzy> I could see the Ringworld from space though

Jan 03 14:19:00 <Lensman> Sure.

Jan 03 14:19:02 <dizzy> That would be a sight to behold.

Jan 03 14:19:43 <Lensman> You can see it here:

Jan 03 14:19:47 <Lensman>

Jan 03 14:19:53 <dizzy> Reading stuff about how awesome the future is gets on my nerves because I want to go there.

Jan 03 14:21:16 <dizzy> I sure hope he continues the Ringworld story.

Jan 03 14:21:44 <Lensman> Louis Wu thought he could see the rim wall as a near-invisible line from nearly the middle of the Ringworld. Obviously not possible, and we've had some epic discussions/ debates on the LarryNiven-l list about what he really *did* see.

Jan 03 14:22:01 <dizzy> It's just far too interesting right now, what with a ringworld that can travel

Jan 03 14:22:27 <Lensman> I wouldn't hold my breath about another Rw novel. Seems like Larry had a big "THE END" sign on the end of RC.

Jan 03 14:22:45 <Lensman> He's working on a five-book deal with Ed Lerner.

Jan 03 14:23:01 <Lazy8> Well, I still am intrigued by a 2nd. Ringworld as introduced in "Return to Ringworld" the PC game in the 90s'.

Jan 03 14:23:36 <Jim> Lensman: maybe he is waiting for a Hollywood flim to be made of Ringworld :-)

Jan 03 14:23:39 <Lensman> I played it, tried to play the sequel but gave up. Larry says those games aren't very good, and I agree.

Jan 03 14:24:18 <Lazy8> The sequel is the one I am talking about. And yes the graphics are limited byt todays standards.

Jan 03 14:24:25 <Lazy8> I still like them.

Jan 03 14:24:33 <Lazy8> And play them occasionally.

Jan 03 14:24:45 <dizzy> Well I think he could do SOMETHING for the Ringworld

Jan 03 14:24:48 <Lensman> Larry says he would very much like to see a film made. I doubt we'll see a *good* film made. Ringworld is too much a book of ideas. Some great visuals, but the ideas won't carry over well to the needs of cinema.

Jan 03 14:25:05 <dizzy> The first book would have to span 3 movies.

Jan 03 14:25:21 <Lensman> I'm glad you like them, I envy you. Wish I could say the same.

Jan 03 14:25:25 <dizzy> The first movie would have to end before they even got to the Ringworld.

Jan 03 14:26:09 <dizzy> Perhaps an HBO tv show of it?

Jan 03 14:26:10 <Lensman> Oh, I don't agree. There's not that much story before they get to the Ringworld. Lots of the text is description, and as they say "a picture is worth a thousand words".

Jan 03 14:26:11 <dizzy> I dunno.

Jan 03 14:26:23 <dizzy> Perhaps.

Jan 03 14:26:46 <dizzy> But there is Wu's birthday, finding speaker to animals, then traveling to the Puppeteer homeplanet

Jan 03 14:27:01 <dizzy> I think doing all that would cover about 1.5 horus.

Jan 03 14:27:48 <Lensman> HBO would be wonderful, they would do a good job. There was an option by the Sci-Fi Channel, and many of us were having nightmares thinking of the horrible disaster that might result. If you've read the Riverworlds novels, or the Wizard of Earthsea, then seen the hack job the Skiffy channel did on them... *shudder*

Jan 03 14:28:12 <Lensman> No, that's about 30 minutes.

Jan 03 14:28:16 <Lazy8> A "Miniseries" would be better. And these days the only limiter is the almighty $$.

Jan 03 14:29:24 <dizzy> Everything SciFi Channel does is crap.

Jan 03 14:29:31 <Lensman> Scene in the restaurant with Speaker is about 5 minutes.

Jan 03 14:29:39 <dizzy> Although the Dune mini series was pretty good

Jan 03 14:29:51 <Lazy8> Not quite everything, but a good 98% yes.

Jan 03 14:29:52 <dizzy> I actually liked it enough to buy it on dvd

Jan 03 14:30:25 <Lensman> "Dune" three-parter was *very* good, I bought the DVD also. But it wasn't an in-house Skiffy Channel production, it was done by someone else.

Jan 03 14:30:42 <dizzy> Yea

Jan 03 14:30:51 <dizzy> I didn't know that

Jan 03 14:31:17 <Lensman> No, not everything. The new Battlestar Galactica is the very best-written SF series on TV ever, and Stargate SG-1 was very good for several seasons.

Jan 03 14:31:53 <dizzy> Well the series they do are pretty ok

Jan 03 14:31:58 <dizzy> The movies they do are crap

Jan 03 14:32:07 <dizzy> Most miniseries they produce tend to be crap too.

Jan 03 14:32:28 <Lensman> In fact, the new BSG is *so* much better than anything else I've seen on TV that everything else pales by comparison... I've quit watching for example "Heroes" and "Lost" because I get disgusted in thinking how much better they could be.

Jan 03 14:32:34 <dizzy> I'd say HBO would be the best bet, but there would have to be considerable interest in it for them to even consider touching the franchies.

Jan 03 14:32:37 <dizzy> franchise*

Jan 03 14:34:17 <Lensman> Yeah, I don't know that /Ringworld/ would have that large a perceived audience. Niven hasn't had much made into films. "Inconstant Moon" was okay, and he adapted his "The Soft Weapon" for an animated Star Trek episode. I think that's about it, altho he did write or co-write some "Land of the Lost" episodes.

Jan 03 14:34:54 <dizzy> We'll probably never see Ringworld come to life.

Jan 03 14:35:02 <dizzy> Maybe it's better off that way.

Jan 03 14:35:16 <Lensman> But yes, *if* HBO would do it, they'd almost certainly do a good job. Good writing, good production. That's where Skiffy TV-movies drop the ball; they start with a lousy script and then everything runs downhill from there.

Jan 03 14:35:48 <Lensman> I personally would rather have no Rw movie than a bad one, but Larry doesn't agree.

Jan 03 14:36:11 <dizzy> He would take a bad Ringworld movie over no Ringworld movie?

Jan 03 14:36:21 <dizzy> That's kinda... ass backwards if you ask me.

Jan 03 14:36:45 <Lensman> It really irks me that so many act and write as though an author has to have his books and stories made into film to be "vindicated". Every time they write an obit for a big-name SF writer, what gets mentioned? Only the stuff made into films. >:-( Philistines!

Jan 03 14:37:14 <Lensman> Yes, Larry has specifically said he'd like to see a Rw movie even if it was bad.

Jan 03 14:37:23 <dizzy> That's dumb

Jan 03 14:38:26 <dizzy> If he really wanted to see if made into a movie he should write it into a script and give it to Hollywood

Jan 03 14:38:44 <Lensman> Dizzy, FYI these chats are archived and posted online. So what you say here will be "shared" with more than just the couple of people here.

Jan 03 14:39:26 * LouisWu (~LouisWu@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 14:39:39 <dizzy> That's fine.

Jan 03 14:39:49 <dizzy> Just stating my opinion is all!

Jan 03 14:41:01 <Lensman> Not suggesting you shouldn't state your opinion. Just wanted you to be aware it wasn't a private conversation.

Jan 03 14:41:11 <Lensman> Welcome LouisWu!

Jan 03 14:41:22 <Lensman> Hey, did you and Hindmost ever make it to Home?

Jan 03 14:41:25 <LouisWu> Lensman: Thanks :)

Jan 03 14:41:58 <LouisWu> I dont think I want "Me and the Hindmost made it" written anywhere...

Jan 03 14:42:06 <LouisWu> (joke)

Jan 03 14:42:12 <Lensman> LOL

Jan 03 14:42:16 * Hippy (~captlychee@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 14:42:27 <Lensman> Hello Hippy!

Jan 03 14:42:33 <Hippy> G

Jan 03 14:42:39 <Hippy> G'day, Lens

Jan 03 14:42:47 <Jim> Hippy!

Jan 03 14:43:10 <Hippy> Howdy, Jim. How's West Virginaia today?

Jan 03 14:43:26 <Lensman> Hippy: Hey, do your 'puter screens show the text upside-down in the antipodal lands? :P

Jan 03 14:43:30 <Jim> no snow!

Jan 03 14:43:58 <Hippy> Lens: yes, but I'm clinging to the ceiling by my feet

Jan 03 14:44:08 <Lensman> You Beast, you.

Jan 03 14:44:21 <Hippy> LOL!

Jan 03 14:44:34 <Hippy> I prefer to think of myself as a Motie

Jan 03 14:44:38 <Lensman> It's nice when they get the in-jokes.

Jan 03 14:45:05 <Lensman> So, Hippy, the monthly question: How are your eyes?

Jan 03 14:46:08 <Hippy> ClClearing up nicely, Lens. A bit of a scare earlier on, but that was solbed with a heap of steroids. The main problem now is the focal characteristics have chaned so much I can barely see what I'm typing

Jan 03 14:46:32 <Hippy> So back to the clinic on Jan 8 to seee if they can work out a new presceiption for my glasses

Jan 03 14:46:44 <Lensman> So have eyes settled down enuff that it's time for new glasses?

Jan 03 14:46:47 <Hippy> In the meantime, the fonts keep getting bigger

Jan 03 14:46:50 <Lensman> Oh, nevermind.

Jan 03 14:47:06 <Jim> 3 cheers for steroids

Jan 03 14:47:20 <Hippy> Not yet, but they will take the last of the sutures out next month, then it will be time

Jan 03 14:47:27 <LouisWu> 3 cheers for larger fonts... :)

Jan 03 14:47:49 <Hippy> I was on so many of them I could've played for the Philly Eagles

Jan 03 14:47:51 <Lensman> We were discussing the ever-popular subject of a Ringworld movie or miniseries, and Dizzy suggested it should be an HBO mini-series.

Jan 03 14:48:25 <Jim> Are HBO mini-series released on DVD?

Jan 03 14:48:26 <Lensman> By "larger fonts" do you mean you have to *use* larger fonts, or that the fonts keep looking larger?

Jan 03 14:48:31 <Hippy> Well, better them than the SciFi channel

Jan 03 14:48:46 <Lensman> Yeah, DVD, we just got John Adams for Xmas.

Jan 03 14:49:03 <LouisWu> Not the SciFi channel!! The Hindmost will *really* look like 2 sock puppets

Jan 03 14:49:10 <Hippy> I have to use larger fonts - this channel is in 22pt Footlights MT

Jan 03 14:49:14 <Lensman> Hippy: From your lips to C.B DeMille's ears.

Jan 03 14:50:11 <Lensman>

Jan 03 14:50:36 <Lensman> You'll have to use your imagination for the 2nd head.

Jan 03 14:50:51 <Hippy> Does Ringworld have enough going on to make a mini-series?

Jan 03 14:51:28 <Hippy> On a completely diffferent note, has anyone come across Edwin Scribner on the chat?

Jan 03 14:51:39 <Lensman> I think it would be just a long movie, but they're arguing with me. They claim 2 1/2 hours before we even get to the Ringworld.

Jan 03 14:51:40 <Jim> nope

Jan 03 14:52:00 <Lensman> I say 30 minutes.

Jan 03 14:52:17 <Hippy> Ah. He's in the Tolkien society, too, and I just discoered the other day that he's a local (Melbourne) boy

Jan 03 14:52:35 <Lensman> "He" ?

Jan 03 14:52:52 <Hippy> I'd say you're right, Lens. 2.5 hours would mean a ton of backstory for the characters - where's Ed Lerner when you need him?

Jan 03 14:53:21 <Hippy> Well, I assume 'he' cause the name is Edwin

Jan 03 14:53:24 <Lensman> Oops, the claim was 1 1/2 hours, sorry.

Jan 03 14:53:33 <LouisWu> Yeah, it would have to be a mini-serios to do it justice (imo)

Jan 03 14:53:34 <Hippy> Even so. . .

Jan 03 14:53:59 <Hippy> Louis, I'd be interested in how you would break it down

Jan 03 14:54:08 <Lensman> Oh, sorry, Edwin Scribmer. I need to wash my eyes out, BRB.

Jan 03 14:54:25 <Hippy> Yes, you could have long luxurous shots of the RW, but it would look like the orgiastic look at the Enterprise in ST:TMP

Jan 03 14:55:02 <Hippy> And I need tea to get me started in the mornings. BRB, too

Jan 03 14:55:07 <LouisWu> Hippy: I think just meeting the characters in the begining would be great fun; who would want to miss the scene where Louis first meets "Speaker" ?

Jan 03 14:58:08 <Lensman> Oh no, definitely need the "You scream and you leap" scene to properly introduce Speaker.

Jan 03 14:59:17 <Lensman> But I'd take a leaf from Peter Jackson's LOTR, cut down the talking-heads scenes and emphasize the action. Unfortunately, the most obvious cut is to jettison the whole "Teela as the ultimate psi power" thing. That's totally non-visual.

Jan 03 14:59:25 <LouisWu> Lensman: Yes, I agree. Too many things happen to truncate any parts of the story and still do them justice (imo)

Jan 03 15:00:35 <LouisWu> I think Teela was more a victim of *other* people's "power". They were too lucky to even be contacted...

Jan 03 15:00:54 <Lazy8> Interview with Matt Smith.

Jan 03 15:01:11 <LouisWu> The only thing(s) Teela seemed to do of her own volition were after she ate TreeOfLife

Jan 03 15:01:11 <Lensman> I can't think of how to truncate the backstory about the MKW, either. You really need the conflict between Nessus and Speaker for dramatic tension. But the talking-heads scene in Louis' mansion would be deadly dull as cinema.

Jan 03 15:01:56 <Lensman> Louis, we're talking about Rw, so far as we know. Teela didn't eat TOL until RE.

Jan 03 15:02:13 <LouisWu> Lensman: I think it depends on how well it's done. Look at "Sopranos"; nothing but talking heads and almost no action.

Jan 03 15:02:22 <Lazy8> Does that make the point less valid?

Jan 03 15:03:01 <Lensman> Louis: Totally agree about Teela being a victim of others' "ultimate luck". She got turned into a protector and died young, clearly not lucky.

Jan 03 15:03:07 <LouisWu> Lensamn: Sorry; I was just pointing out that the Teela Brown Gene was a misnomer. She was the least luckiest :)

Jan 03 15:03:28 <Hippy> You could get away with 'talking heada' a couple of times, becaue Speaker and Nessus havesuch interesting heads - but you can't keep it up

Jan 03 15:03:48 <Lensman> Louis: Oh I agree it *could* be done and stick fairly close to the story. But I doubt anyone could sell it to Hollywood or even HBO that way.

Jan 03 15:04:00 <Hippy> You can do the MKW 'speak to us of starseeds' bit becuase the tension is from whether Speaker will kill Nessus

Jan 03 15:04:07 <LouisWu> Hippy: Yes! That talking Squid Head in "Pirates of the Carribean" was hypnotic

Jan 03 15:04:18 <Lensman> Louis: Yes, I agree Teela Brown gene is misnamed.

Jan 03 15:05:05 <Lensman> Right, there's no way to cut out the starseed bit or the MKW references because that provides dramatic tension.

Jan 03 15:06:19 <Lensman> Don't get me wrong, I'd love a very close adaptation. But cinema has different strengths and weaknesses than the written word.

Jan 03 15:06:36 <LouisWu> Give Louis some leverage too. The Hindmost needs Louis to reason with Speaker after that :)

Jan 03 15:07:01 <Lensman> Right, Louis as peacemaker becomes central to the plot.

Jan 03 15:08:00 <LouisWu> Visually, I guess the vistas from the flycycles distracting

Jan 03 15:08:09 <Hippy> Bearing in mind that the tasp gives Nessus ultimate veto power

Jan 03 15:08:20 <LouisWu> I dont know if I'd pay attention to them talking, or just be fixated on the "arch"

Jan 03 15:08:24 <Lensman> Fortunately some of the talking-heads in Louis' office concerns Teela and the Birthright Lottery, so if that's cut out it would help a bit there.

Jan 03 15:08:49 <Hippy> The flycycles work to give you a sense of scale. You'd hae to have a sunset in there, and the eye storm

Jan 03 15:09:09 <Lensman> Yah, but I think the Puppeteer disintegrator that Speaker threatened Nessus with had a longer range than the tasp.

Jan 03 15:09:24 <LouisWu> Lensman: LOL

Jan 03 15:09:51 <Lensman> Absolutely have to have Teela flying into the eyestorm, for eye candy, yes.

Jan 03 15:10:13 <Hippy> It's all about eyes. I'm flattered

Jan 03 15:10:20 <Lensman> Louis: You must have misunderstood something, I didn't make a joke.

Jan 03 15:10:42 * ronn (~chatzilla@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 15:10:51 <Lensman> Hi Ronn!

Jan 03 15:11:07 <Hippy> G'day, Ronn

Jan 03 15:11:15 <Hippy> Lens: I know. Only kidding

Jan 03 15:11:23 <Lensman> Hippy: SUNSET!?!? What sunset!

Jan 03 15:11:25 <LouisWu> Lensman: Maybe not on purpose, but it sounded like something Speaker would say "Be warned: my slaver weapon has greater range, plant eater"

Jan 03 15:11:27 <Lazy8> So, does Mr. Peace and Freedom come in here?

Jan 03 15:11:30 <Lensman> Oh, sorry Hippy.

Jan 03 15:11:46 <ronn> hello.

Jan 03 15:11:58 <Jim> Ronn!

Jan 03 15:12:03 <Hippy> A shadow square, then, rushing nighty on at 770 mps

Jan 03 15:12:04 <LouisWu> Lensman: I think Hippy meant shadow square sunset :)

Jan 03 15:12:22 <Lensman> Who is "Mr. Peace and Freedom"? Or should I ask, which one?

Jan 03 15:13:17 <Lensman> Louis: Yah, but Speaker was chasing Nessus, and if Nessus' flycycle hadn't been faster... by no coincidence whatever...

Jan 03 15:13:43 <Lazy8>

Jan 03 15:13:51 <Lensman> Yes, shadow square sunset a must. "And the full glory of the Arch was revealed..."

Jan 03 15:13:54 <Lazy8> So, who is looking forward to Feb?

Jan 03 15:13:57 <ronn> I tried the Java client and am still getting errors, so I am using the ChatZilla add-on to Firefox for the first time. So please bear with me until I figure out how it works . . . (frex apparently I have to press Ctrl-Enter to send something . . . )

Jan 03 15:14:19 <Hippy> I'm looking forward to Feb.

Jan 03 15:14:29 <Lensman> Feb is what? The release of /Escape from Hell/?

Jan 03 15:14:31 <Hippy> Who is looking forward to the 2010 WorldCon?

Jan 03 15:14:52 <Lazy8> As am I. Six new MKW stories in MKW12.

Jan 03 15:15:27 <Hippy> Oh, good!

Jan 03 15:15:28 <Lensman> I have a $25 gift card for Books-a-Million, and it has "Reserved for Escape from Hell" virtually imprinted on it... :D

Jan 03 15:16:35 <Lazy8> Matthew Joseph Harrington is Mr. Peace & Freedom.

Jan 03 15:16:56 <Lazy8> Peace is his Pertoctor character in MKW.

Jan 03 15:17:02 <Lensman> Well, I need to add the table of contents for MKW XII to the Incompleat Known Space Concordance's bibliography, since I did finally find it.

Jan 03 15:17:14 * test (~test@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 15:17:26 <Hippy> G'day, test

Jan 03 15:17:27 <Lazy8> Here ye go then.

Jan 03 15:17:36 <Lazy8> MKW XII info.

Jan 03 15:17:42 <Lensman> I've never seen any MKW author in here, at least not one who identified himself.

Jan 03 15:17:54 <ronn> Last time I tried using a $25 gift card at Books-a-Million the cashier couldn't get gift cards to work (I was not the only one in line trying to redeem a Christmas present). I sure hope the one I received this year works better.

Jan 03 15:18:03 <Lensman> Not even Paul Chafe, who is or was a member of the LarryNiven-l forum.

Jan 03 15:18:26 <Lazy8> Well, they seem to use DSL. Poor lads.

Jan 03 15:19:06 <Lensman> But then, I've only been a member here for a couple of years or less.

Jan 03 15:19:30 <LouisWu> Are you gentlemen all writers ?

Jan 03 15:19:37 <Hippy> Paul Chafe has been her

Jan 03 15:19:41 <Hippy> . . here

Jan 03 15:20:00 <Lensman> I'm just a fan, unless you consider my editing the Incompleat Known Space Concordance "writing".

Jan 03 15:20:01 <Hippy> I dabble, Louis

Jan 03 15:20:49 <ronn> Is there any one of us who does NOT "dabble" in writing from time to time?

Jan 03 15:20:54 <Jim> LouisWu: I write scientific reports and papers. :-)

Jan 03 15:21:30 <LouisWu> Jim: That sounds like it counts :)

Jan 03 15:21:43 <Lazy8> I just type nonsense that some people find amusing. :S

Jan 03 15:21:58 <Hippy> I wish I could do that

Jan 03 15:22:05 <Hippy> Well, I suppose there's this chat. . .

Jan 03 15:22:34 <Lensman> If e-mails count as "writing" then I'm a prolific writer. :D

Jan 03 15:22:50 <LouisWu> Lensman :)

Jan 03 15:23:34 <Lensman> I'm the #1 post-er on the EEStory forum, for EEStor's breakthru EESU supercapacitor, does that count? :D

Jan 03 15:24:24 <Hippy> It would if I understood what it meant :)

Jan 03 15:24:50 * test has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Jan 03 15:24:52 <Lensman> Anyway... I suppose if HBO did a Rw miniseries, they could do some parts of the sequels, too. Most or all of RE, skip lightly over RT, develop RC well.

Jan 03 15:25:10 <Hippy> Did the test fail, or succeed?

Jan 03 15:25:38 <Hippy> You coudl do a series of 120 min movies

Jan 03 15:26:04 <Lensman> Hippy: EEStor is the name of a startup company which claims to have invented a breakthru supercapacitor that could power a car, making a fully electric car practical and affordable. However, thus far it's vaporware.

Jan 03 15:26:16 <Lazy8> All that Rishing, it would have to be HBO or Skinimax ;)

Jan 03 15:26:29 <Lensman> Hippy: What test?

Jan 03 15:26:36 <Hippy> If you did a mini-series, you would just have Teela wander off, eat tree of life, whle Nessus is healing from his head cut off and Lous and Prill ge to know each other

Jan 03 15:26:43 <Lensman> Well, we *were* talking about HBO.

Jan 03 15:26:59 <Hippy> Lens: The person called 'test' that joined and dropped out there

Jan 03 15:27:07 <Lensman> Oh, that.

Jan 03 15:27:24 <Lensman> Guess we were too geeky for him. :P

Jan 03 15:27:41 <Hippy> Your hook would be that the sun moves off centre and Louis has to do something about it

Jan 03 15:28:03 <Lazy8> Why would one come here and not expect geek? Tis a quandry.

Jan 03 15:28:33 <Lensman> Well, "#knownspace" doesn't really say much to non-Niven fans.

Jan 03 15:29:17 <Lensman> Hippy: Take different plot elements from different RW stories and mix them up? Interesting approach.

Jan 03 15:30:12 <Hippy> well, they'd be more or less sequential

Jan 03 15:30:15 <Lazy8> So, why did Feather know of the Trinocs? A query for the ages since Louis Wo did not have first contact for 200 years.

Jan 03 15:30:35 <Lensman> Then you'd have to have Hindmost come from the outside and kidnap Louis & Speaker (who would never become Chmeee).

Jan 03 15:30:50 <Hippy> Lazy8: becaue Larry didn't write the story

Jan 03 15:31:13 <Lensman> Who what when where why? Oh, a non-canonical MKW story?

Jan 03 15:31:16 <Lazy8> Larry wrote the story alright, his response.... "Oops"

Jan 03 15:31:46 <Hippy> Lens: you'd move his naming to the end of the mini series. It's his - damn, can't think of the word. The end of his hero's journey

Jan 03 15:31:57 <Lensman> Where's the reference to... OH! That's right, that's one of the errors I mentioned to Ed.

Jan 03 15:32:22 <Hippy> Lazy8: Oh. What story are we talking about?

Jan 03 15:32:35 <Lazy8> Procrustes

Jan 03 15:33:01 <Lazy8> It's in there. The bedroom scene. Feather mentions the Trinocs.

Jan 03 15:33:02 * Hippy 's memory is failing him. He read 'Procrusters' and didn't remember that

Jan 03 15:33:14 <Lazy8> It's an Oops moment indeed.

Jan 03 15:33:36 <LouisWu> "What a tangled web we weave...." :)

Jan 03 15:33:43 <Lazy8> Hehe

Jan 03 15:33:45 <Hippy> Lens or you ought to be working for TOR, spotting these things

Jan 03 15:34:20 <Lazy8> Hey, if that is the bigest oops on a series that has run since the 70s' I think he is doing fine indeed.

Jan 03 15:34:35 <Hippy> I suppose I should ask how everyone's New Year went. How did everyone's New Year go?

Jan 03 15:35:06 <LouisWu> I hate to think of things like "Ringworld" and "Berserker" going untapped, while movie versions of "Gilligan's Island" and "The Monkeys" are undoubtably on the desks of studio execs

Jan 03 15:35:48 <Lazy8> Well, Hollyweird has no imagination and presumes that the entire U. S. of A. is the same.

Jan 03 15:35:52 <LouisWu> Lazy8: I agree. Either Larry has a labyrinthian mind, or a nightmare outline on his wall(s)

Jan 03 15:36:07 <Hippy> LouiseWu: given the standard of reamakes these days, I thank everything thankable that RW hasn't yet been made into a movie

Jan 03 15:36:18 <Lazy8> So we get retreads of things we didnt want the first time around.

Jan 03 15:36:20 <Jim> LouisWu: the trouble is that things like "Gilligan's Island" is less of a crap shoot for the studios

Jan 03 15:36:45 <Lensman> Quiet, by choice. Some years ago I decided I don't want to be out on the roads at night on New Years' Eve. We watched "Enemy of the State", several years old but still an excellent techno-suspense movie. And "Tucker: The Man and His Dream", which wasn't nearly as good as I remembered it. Also, the "Making of..." on the John Adams DVD set, which was very enlightening. Absolutely astounding what they're doing

Jan 03 15:36:51 <LouisWu> Jim: "Did you see the one where they almost got off the island, and Gilligan screwed thing up....?

Jan 03 15:37:08 <Lensman> putting in green-screen backgrounds seamlessly these days.

Jan 03 15:37:22 <Jim> Lensman: same here, a dry new year

Jan 03 15:37:32 <Lazy8> LouisWu: He has people that read and reread his work. It taxes the mind to keep track of "The Big Thing".

Jan 03 15:37:44 <LouisWu> Lensman: Yeah, green screen and match-move have become seamless

Jan 03 15:38:53 <Lensman> Hippy: I would very, very much like to be put on the list for those receiving ARCs of all KS stories, so I could check them for continuity errors. I was hoping Ed would arrange that, and I tried to subtly hint that to him, but no dice so far at least. Maybe I need to be less circumspect.

Jan 03 15:39:53 <Hippy> Lens: I'd advise just asking him. He seems approachable and likes directness

Jan 03 15:40:05 * EML (~EML@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 15:40:07 <Lazy8> Lensman: as would I, but Matthew is the only one to respond to me so far.

Jan 03 15:40:19 <Hippy> Speak of the devil. ..

Jan 03 15:40:24 <EML> Um, me?

Jan 03 15:40:39 <Hippy> Indeed, your Infernal Mightiness :)

Jan 03 15:40:39 <Lazy8> Organlegger has only responded to me through Mat.

Jan 03 15:41:07 <Hippy> How are you, Ed?

Jan 03 15:41:11 <EML> I'm speechless.

Jan 03 15:41:27 <ronn> [Re: NY] When I looked up from the book I was reading the clock said it was 7 minutes past midnight. I didn't hear ANY fireworks at all to mark the moment (somewhat unusual, even here).

Jan 03 15:41:32 <Hippy> You were just mentioned two sentwnces before you arrived, that's why the devil remark

Jan 03 15:41:47 <EML> But I'll get over it. :-)

Jan 03 15:42:09 <EML> No Larry today, I see.

Jan 03 15:42:23 <Jim> Ed! :-)

Jan 03 15:42:24 <Hippy> Ronn: same here. Very quiet outside. Roaringly drunk at my place, though :)

Jan 03 15:42:36 <Lazy8> So, any chance of seeing Carlos Wu as a Protector?

Jan 03 15:42:39 <Lazy8> ;)

Jan 03 15:42:47 <Hippy> Not yet, Ed, but you could always log on as him n another machine :)

Jan 03 15:43:06 <EML> Wu is me ;-)

Jan 03 15:43:34 <LouisWu> He doesnt mean me :)

Jan 03 15:43:35 <ronn> <aargh>

Jan 03 15:43:36 <Lazy8> Well I need your doc for my back then. ;)

Jan 03 15:43:50 <Lazy8> Carlos, not Louis.

Jan 03 15:44:11 <Jim> Lazy8: my back is next

Jan 03 15:44:11 <EML> But as you ask about Proectors, a news flash. Larry & I just turned in Destroyer of Worlds.

Jan 03 15:44:45 <Lazy8> Good news indeed, so when may we poor fools expect it on the racks?

Jan 03 15:45:03 <Lensman> "trinocs". Yup, /Crashlander/ p. 223. Whoo-wee, I have no idea how I'm gonna handle that. Easiest just to ignore it...

Jan 03 15:45:09 <Lazy8> LOL

Jan 03 15:45:15 <Lazy8> I TOLD YE!

Jan 03 15:46:18 <EML> Best guess? Destroyer of Worlds will be released in fall 2009. Consider that chiseled in jello.

Jan 03 15:46:32 <Lensman> LOL

Jan 03 15:46:52 <Jim> Ed, why so long between final draft and release to the public?

Jan 03 15:46:53 <Lazy8> W00t! So the possibility of 2 KS books in the year. Good news indeed.

Jan 03 15:47:11 <Hippy> They should have it out in time for the Con, surely?

Jan 03 15:47:13 <Lensman> But now, Larry has told us you've signed for TWO MORE KS books with him!

Jan 03 15:47:15 <Lazy8> MKW XII in Feb. and DoW in unknown.

Jan 03 15:47:19 <EML> So is the plan to talk about Juggler this chat, or does it remain under the interdict?

Jan 03 15:47:41 <Jim> My vote is yes!

Jan 03 15:47:57 <Lensman> Unless someone objects...

Jan 03 15:48:02 <Hippy> I don't mind spoilers. It'll be years before I get to it, I'm sad to say

Jan 03 15:48:13 <Lazy8> Read it week one.

Jan 03 15:48:19 <Hippy> It's on the shelf, but the eye is weak and out of focus

Jan 03 15:48:47 <EML> Lens: point of clarification -- Larry & I have talked about two more books; there's no publisher in the loop yet.

Jan 03 15:49:18 * Hippy AFK for more tea

Jan 03 15:49:29 <Lensman> Other than having eye trouble, like Hippy, I don't understand how any dyed-in-the-wool Niven fan can let a KS book just sit on the shelf! I devour them within a day or two of buying them.

Jan 03 15:49:35 <Lazy8> Why not bring the Perin to the forefront? We have scant word of their nature.

Jan 03 15:50:13 <Lensman> Ed: Tut-tut! I'm certain you'll have no trouble finding a publisher.

Jan 03 15:50:43 <EML> Jim: I can't explain why publishing takes as long as it often does (or why a few books -- IMO the least worthy, most "newsy" -- can be instantly available)

Jan 03 15:51:01 <Lensman> Ed, has Larry mentioned anything further in the Ringworld story line?

Jan 03 15:51:17 <ronn> EML: $$$$$$

Jan 03 15:51:33 <Lensman> What Ronn said.

Jan 03 15:52:11 <EML> Lens: yeah, I imagine the sequels will sell. I'm just on the cautious side about predicting new projects. These aren't normal times in publishing (among many other industries).

Jan 03 15:52:34 * test (~test@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 15:52:46 * test has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Jan 03 15:53:10 <Jim> Ed, how could the publishing industry be affected by the same events that have destroyed Wall Street?

Jan 03 15:53:12 <Lensman> Something like The Pentagon Papers came out within days after getting the manuscript. Obviously if the publisher perceives money in very swift publication, they can short-circut the entire editorial process.

Jan 03 15:53:17 <ronn> that was a quick test . . .

Jan 03 15:53:18 <EML> More in the Ringworld sroryline? You mean a sequel to RC? THat'd be news to me.

Jan 03 15:54:13 <EML> Jim: recession = fewer books bought = fewer new projects started. It'll be the same with movie tickets and new movies.

Jan 03 15:54:25 <Lazy8> Tunesmith resurects Lucas Lancelot Garner, just to tell stories!

Jan 03 15:54:26 <Lensman> Ed: Well, someone in here was hoping for a further Rw story, so I just wondered if Larry had said anything to you about thoughts re another sequel, or if he was finally sure he'd never do one.

Jan 03 15:54:38 <ronn> Lensman -- "Obviously if the publisher perceives money in very swift publication, they can short-circut the entire editorial process."

Jan 03 15:54:40 <ronn> And it (the last part) shows . . .

Jan 03 15:54:45 <Lensman> Actually movies do very well when times are bad.

Jan 03 15:55:16 <ronn> So does sales of booze . . .

Jan 03 15:55:25 <LouisWu> So do hookers...

Jan 03 15:55:31 <LouisWu> I mean, I suppose!! :)

Jan 03 15:55:33 <EML> A long article in today's Washington Post predicted a bad 2009 (and probably 2010) in Hollywood.

Jan 03 15:55:37 <Lensman> People look for escapism, so movies do well. Dunno if that works for publishers, too.

Jan 03 15:55:47 <Lazy8> You mean Ship's concubines/

Jan 03 15:55:53 <ronn> I read the part about booze in the newspaper . . .

Jan 03 15:55:58 <Jim> I heard that Playboy's Playmates of the Year tend to be heavier in recession times.

Jan 03 15:56:39 <LouisWu> Jim: Now *there's* a job I'd like to sink my teeth into: "Okay girls...who's next? Sit right here..."

Jan 03 15:56:46 <EML> I'm not hoping for a falloff in book sales -- and I'm not taking for granted that publishing will sail on unaffected.

Jan 03 15:56:47 <Lensman> They were just talking on PBS News Hour a day or two ago how attendance for concerts has gone up because people want a break from the bad news in real life.

Jan 03 15:57:03 <Lensman> Seriously, in the Great Depression movies did very well.

Jan 03 15:57:29 <Lazy8> Yes, as did Booze and Boobs.

Jan 03 15:58:10 <EML> My official position is: I have no official position. So how about I don't fret about the state of publishing and instead we talk about JUGGLER?

Jan 03 15:58:20 <Hippy> Well,it's an ill wind. . .

Jan 03 15:58:21 <Lensman> So talk!

Jan 03 15:58:29 <ronn> Jim: More maternal-looking, too.

Jan 03 15:58:30 <ronn> (I dunno what that means. I love my mother, but I doubt many of Playboy's "readers" would want to see her in the magazine . . . )

Jan 03 15:58:42 <Lazy8> Go on, regail us.

Jan 03 15:58:53 <EML> I assumed this was Q&A format (like the FLEET chat a while back).

Jan 03 15:59:14 <EML> As in: did people wonder about anythign in the book?

Jan 03 15:59:26 <Lensman> I had a set of questions for the FOW chat, to stimulate the conversation when it lagged. I have no prepared questions for JOW.

Jan 03 15:59:42 <ronn> Got a question about a possible error . . .

Jan 03 15:59:47 <Lazy8> Ok, I recomend reading Juggler before Chashlander. Any seconds?

Jan 03 15:59:51 <EML> Go ahead, ronn

Jan 03 16:00:29 <LouisWu> Lazy8: Too late for me

Jan 03 16:01:01 <Lensman> I did think it was very interesting, and satisfying, that JOW negated Feather's contention that Bey couldn't leave earth because of the Thought Police.

Jan 03 16:01:18 <EML> Crashlander or Juggler? What about Fleet or Juggler?

Jan 03 16:01:22 <Lazy8> Same here, but I think the reveals are better in JoW than Juggler. Both are grand but I would modify my reading order if I could.

Jan 03 16:01:30 * rimworlder (~rimworlder@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 16:01:31 <Lensman> Lazy8: I dunno, I hadn't thought about it. Why?

Jan 03 16:01:41 <Jim> Just an Observation: The ARM paranoid schizoids appear to be quite functional. Would they be classified as sub-clinical paranoids today?

Jan 03 16:01:57 <rimworlder> howdy!

Jan 03 16:02:07 <Lensman> Welcome Rim.

Jan 03 16:02:08 <EML> Fleet vs. Juggler order? Just curious. We tried to make the books independent.

Jan 03 16:02:20 <rimworlder> hi lensman

Jan 03 16:02:23 <Lazy8> You bring up Juggler, Crashlander is the closest in series match. I know Fleet comes before, but I am tring to stay tward topic.

Jan 03 16:02:26 <rimworlder> hi Ed

Jan 03 16:02:42 <Lensman> Obviously FOW needs to be read before JOW because part of JOW is a sequel to FOW.

Jan 03 16:02:46 <ronn> On p. 77, it says "Half a century earlier, Pelton's g-g-etc-grandmother had invented the transfer-booth system."

Jan 03 16:02:48 <ronn> That timing seemed a bit off. Or is it me who is off?

Jan 03 16:02:58 <EML> the ARM paranoids woudl HAVE to be functional. Who wants dysfunctional police?

Jan 03 16:03:03 <Lazy8> Fleet is neccesary for the colonist.

Jan 03 16:03:06 <rimworlder> I do I do

Jan 03 16:03:13 <Lazy8> Otherwise you get confused.

Jan 03 16:03:26 <Lensman> Ronn: Why is timing off?

Jan 03 16:03:51 <Lazy8> The internet is going wonky over the announcmet of a new Doctor.

Jan 03 16:04:04 <Lazy8> Welcome to laggy infrastructure.

Jan 03 16:04:23 <EML> I think the transfer-booth introduction matches several published KS timelines.

Jan 03 16:04:26 <rimworlder> the paranoia of JOW got so many levels deep sometimes I got lost - which is the only real 'issue' I had with the book

Jan 03 16:05:17 <EML> Hi, Rim. PLaying with Sigmund's mind was a big part of the fun (for the authors, anyway) of the book.

Jan 03 16:05:37 <rimworlder> oh, I'm sure - cause paranoids (like me) see conspiracy EVERYWHERE

Jan 03 16:06:05 <Lensman> I had a real problem with JOW in that Siggy at times becomes so paranoid that it's absurd... if I can't identify with the protagonist, the story loses suspense for me.

Jan 03 16:06:14 <rimworlder> we have a little joke going at home - my wife leaves the comet cleaner on the counter every morning - claims she's putting it in my coffee

Jan 03 16:06:27 <Lensman> Ronn: Again, why is timing off?

Jan 03 16:06:42 <Jim> Rimworlder: hows the taste?

Jan 03 16:06:49 <EML> and given the responsibilities that Sigmund held, seeing conspiracies was sometimes a self-fullfilling prophecy.

Jan 03 16:06:56 <rimworlder> jim - just fine - don't notice it at all...

Jan 03 16:07:07 <ronn> Rim: Do you often have dirty comets in your coffee?

Jan 03 16:07:24 <LouisWu> rimworlder: No joke; I used to have a cat that licked the top of the container clean....*used to*

Jan 03 16:07:27 <rimworlder> Ed - the problem with Sigmund was/is that he didn't know when to 'turn it off'

Jan 03 16:07:39 <rimworlder> louis - oy

Jan 03 16:07:45 <ronn> Maybe it is me that was off.

Jan 03 16:07:47 <Lensman> Like when Siggy wonders if Bey conspired with the Puppeteers *and* the Jinxians to fake the core explosion. Ludicrous.

Jan 03 16:07:52 <LouisWu> rimwolder: Yeah... :)

Jan 03 16:08:28 <rimworlder> lens - ludicrous - but it didn't put me off - it was just so twisty-turny I often had to go back and start the train of ill-logic all oer again

Jan 03 16:08:29 <EML> but insane people don't get to choose to be less insane (do they?)

Jan 03 16:09:05 <LouisWu> EML: If they could, would they? :)

Jan 03 16:09:25 <LouisWu> "But I *like* the voices..."

Jan 03 16:09:26 <rimworlder> eml - to some extent, some can. I have a another friend who is clinically bi-polar and sometimes she 'chooses' to be more sane than other times

Jan 03 16:09:43 <rimworlder> and to answer the second question - sometimes she wants to fight it, and sometimes she just gives in

Jan 03 16:09:53 * SolBelter (~SolBelter@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 16:10:00 <Lensman> Rim: I guess every big Niven fan liked JOW better than me. Well no, Tim Kyger had much the same problems I did. We wish Tor had edited the revisitations of the BS stories down. Edited them down a *lot*.

Jan 03 16:10:38 <rimworlder> lens - well, the nice thing going on here is - A - we get to complain to the source and B - we already know there's another one coming

Jan 03 16:10:39 <Jim> Rimworlder: some formerly clinical people claim that they chose to be sane

Jan 03 16:10:42 <EML> if I were to make one general comment about Juggler, it'd be this: paranoids don't believe in coincidence. So why do (for example) Jinx and Bey show up so often? UNless there's fire to go with that smoke.

Jan 03 16:11:03 <ronn> LW/Rim: I had a cat who was licking me: I thought he was being affectionate until I realized he was licking off the Icy Hot I had put there. Fortunately that was the same cat who was allergic to milk, so I locked him in the bathroom with a saucer of milk, then waited about ten minutes and cleaned up the floor . . .

Jan 03 16:11:31 <LouisWu> ronn: Hahaha...yikes!!

Jan 03 16:11:38 <rimworlder> I suppose if I were going to delve into deconstructionism on JOW, the big question I'd ask is 'why do the ARM ever use 'natural' paranoids?

Jan 03 16:11:56 <rimworlder> ronn - lol

Jan 03 16:12:00 <rimworlder> yuk

Jan 03 16:12:01 <Lensman> It's not that I don't think a true paranoid *could* be that insane. It's that I wonder if he would be functional enough to hold down an important ARM position if he were.

Jan 03 16:12:04 <SolBelter> I *loved* JoW! And will be intrigued to read past chatlogs to hear Lens & Tim Kyger's takes

Jan 03 16:12:23 <EML> Thanks, Sol.

Jan 03 16:12:36 <ronn> Lens: Before I read JoW, I worried that the flashbacks would be too much, but upon reading it I decided it was just about right . . .

Jan 03 16:12:48 <Lensman> You won't read Tim Kyger's takes in chat logs. That was private e-mails between Tim and myself.

Jan 03 16:12:54 <Hippy> What? Is Tim Kyger on this?

Jan 03 16:13:03 <rimworlder> I actually enjoyed, a lot, the revisitations of past history from a slightly different perspectie

Jan 03 16:13:04 <EML> I took it as a given the ARM hired natural paranoids -- it was already canon.

Jan 03 16:13:15 * SolBelter nods to Lens Thx-ok

Jan 03 16:13:37 <rimworlder> Ed - I know - but that's what I'm saying; if I were going to be going that deep into questions about the premises - I'd be going back that far

Jan 03 16:13:53 <LouisWu> "paranoids dont believe in coincidence"...that'd make them good investigators

Jan 03 16:13:55 <Lensman> I enjoyed the "secret history of Known Space", filling in the gaps. Like why Nessus contacted the Ousiders at the beginning of "The Soft Weapon".

Jan 03 16:14:05 <rimworlder> lens - exactly

Jan 03 16:14:20 <ronn> ditto

Jan 03 16:14:41 <SolBelter> Hippy, i was incorrectly inferring Tim was on, and to save Lensman the effort of reprising his points.

Jan 03 16:14:43 <Lensman> I really liked how FOW dovetailed "Borderland" into the story. But it did so *without* recounting the entire story! I really, really wish JOW had done the same with those other stories.

Jan 03 16:15:01 <rimworlder> ronn - if you ever miss any of that stuff, I've been told I do a great imitation of a cat upchucking

Jan 03 16:15:24 <Hippy> Sol: I see. So he has been on? I have some Asimov stuff for him, you see

Jan 03 16:15:29 <LouisWu> rimworlder: You must be fun at parties :)

Jan 03 16:15:38 <SolBelter> I'd just noticed also that the chatlog archives are up to date and i'd missed four meetings, so i figured it's been discussed there

Jan 03 16:15:44 <Lensman> Hippy: I'll send you Tim's e-mail address.

Jan 03 16:15:49 <rimworlder> I don't go to parties - I'm too paranoid...

Jan 03 16:16:00 <Hippy> Thanks, Lens

Jan 03 16:16:09 * Dan (~vila@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 16:16:17 <Jim> Dan!

Jan 03 16:16:24 <Hippy> Here's that Georgia boy

Jan 03 16:16:28 <Dan> Woah! Full house!

Jan 03 16:16:53 <ronn> No, thanks.

Jan 03 16:16:55 <ronn> (I do miss that cat: the first of two in a row to apparently have the delayed reaction to the feline leukemia vaccine.)

Jan 03 16:17:03 <Dan> Yeah, sorry I'm late. Lyn and I went out to take the trash off and then go grocery shopping.

Jan 03 16:17:04 <Lensman> Hippy: You've got mail.

Jan 03 16:17:18 <rimworlder> ronn - oh man, sorry. I've lost several over the years but fortunately, all from old-age

Jan 03 16:17:34 <Hippy> Thanks, Lens

Jan 03 16:17:49 <SolBelter> (Why is rim saying that about parties? What behavior of mine is he trying to affect, and why!!??!!)

Jan 03 16:17:57 <rimworlder> lol

Jan 03 16:18:09 <Lensman> I also don't think that Siggy was correct in his speculations about the Outsiders at the end of the story, but Ed says I'm full of flup. :P

Jan 03 16:18:15 <EML> One inevitable challenge of Juggler was how much of the Shaeffer era to revisit. Inevitably, we revisited too much for some KS afficiandos and too little for some new readers.

Jan 03 16:18:30 <rimworlder> sol - I'm not trying to affect anything....(crooked smile)

Jan 03 16:18:55 <rimworlder> ed - which probably means that in the long run you struck the right balance

Jan 03 16:19:25 <Lensman> Guess it's just me and Tim. Everyone else seems to be very positive about JOW. Maybe I'm just getting cranky in my old age. *Shrug*

Jan 03 16:19:37 <SolBelter> I grinned my way thru that entire section of JoW, seeing 30 yr old events [in my worldline] again from diff POVs - fascinating!

Jan 03 16:20:21 * SolBelter grins at rimworlder

Jan 03 16:20:25 <EML> since there's more of Sigmund to come, in Destroyer, the investment in getting him to (anti-spoiler circumlocation) where he ended up may make more sense this fall.

Jan 03 16:20:38 <rimworlder> Lens - I gave Ed my capsule 'review' in email and basically said that I thought it was ok, would probably get 3.5 stars, and I felt that some of it was the 'second act' issue

Jan 03 16:21:18 <rimworlder> I wouldn't say it's my favorite KS novel - but I also wouldn't throw it across the room, would recommend it to most and WILL re-read it in future

Jan 03 16:21:48 <EML> Not throw across the room. I'm honored :-)

Jan 03 16:22:17 <rimworlder> Ed - sorry - you got my personal opinion earlier I was just being dramatic

Jan 03 16:22:20 * Hippy AFK again for various functions

Jan 03 16:22:29 <rimworlder> sol - STOP smiling at me!

Jan 03 16:23:00 <Dan> Could be worse, Ed. I've found one of the "Dream Park" novels in the cutout bin of a local Dollar General Store.

Jan 03 16:23:08 <EML> When I did the research for my next-out book (Small Miracles, about medical nanotech), I told bunches of scientists my goal was to not have my book thrown across the room by biologists and MDs.

Jan 03 16:23:09 <rimworlder> I've only ever thrown one book across the room

Jan 03 16:23:37 <rimworlder> I didn't mean to faint with damn praise

Jan 03 16:23:42 <ronn> Rim: Thanks. The one I have now is estimated to be 13±, but everybody thinks he looks younger and better than he did when I started taking care of him ~1.5 years ago. OTOH, the second of the two mentioned earlier was climbing trees in the morning and gone late than night, about five months after the lump first appeared.

Jan 03 16:23:57 <EML> rim: I wasn't offended, not in the least. Not many social cues in typing, emoticons notwithstanding.

Jan 03 16:24:13 <rimworlder> 'whew'

Jan 03 16:24:42 <rimworlder> in case others want to avoid - the thrown book was Sivell's Cloud Cuckoo Land

Jan 03 16:25:12 <ronn> "rimworlder> I've only ever thrown one book across the room"

Jan 03 16:25:14 <ronn> Me, too. _Number of the Beast_, about 2/3 of the way through, when it becomes the sequel to _Time Enough for Love_ . . .

Jan 03 16:25:35 <Dan> LOL!

Jan 03 16:25:57 <SolBelter> rim - smile when u say that to me!

Jan 03 16:26:00 <EML> almost ANYTHING by Dan Brown. Draamtic gibberish, uninterrupted by facts. (Not that I'm jealous of his success, or anything :-( )

Jan 03 16:26:01 <rimworlder> my review of that one basically said "I'd rather be reading the labels on Howard Hughes' urine collection jars'

Jan 03 16:26:33 * Hippy returned

Jan 03 16:26:59 <EML> Urine Peace?

Jan 03 16:27:04 <LouisWu> rimworlder: Dont bother; they're in alphabetical order (they're all labled "P")

Jan 03 16:27:05 <rimworlder> ronn - NOTB - not me - probably read that three or four times - but it IS way down on the RAH list

Jan 03 16:27:23 <rimworlder> louis - lol - except for the dates and summary of the preceding meal

Jan 03 16:27:29 <Jim> On eHarmony, if a match tells me that she read any Dan Brown book, I drop her immediately.

Jan 03 16:27:43 <rimworlder> jim - lol - what a citeria

Jan 03 16:28:20 <SolBelter> my list of heinlein favs roughly correlates to each book's length

Jan 03 16:29:02 <rimworlder> ronn - you of course know they last longer if 'all indoors'; one siamese indoor/outdoor lived to 17.5, two indoor onlies lived to 19.5 and 19.75 respectively and the current one is 17 and, according to the vet 'looks' 13

Jan 03 16:29:20 <SolBelter> with Hars Mistress an exception-my fav

Jan 03 16:29:38 <EML> in his later life, didn't Heinlein have some major health issues?

Jan 03 16:29:44 <LouisWu> rimworlder: I currently have a cat that is over 20; but she's CTD....

Jan 03 16:29:45 <rimworlder> ed - yes

Jan 03 16:29:54 <SolBelter> indeed he did

Jan 03 16:30:20 <rimworlder> rare blood disorder, organ issues as a result and brain 'issues' too

Jan 03 16:30:21 <SolBelter> and credited a carotid blockage for page of writing change

Jan 03 16:30:33 <SolBelter> for part^

Jan 03 16:31:10 <EML> Well, the iffier later books do not detract from the wonderful early books.

Jan 03 16:31:12 <ronn> Oh, I picked up NOTB and finished it. But I did first express my opinion of the return of Lazarus Long and his Oedipus complex into what had been an interesting story . . .

Jan 03 16:31:43 <SolBelter> around time of # of Beast, but i saw little change after- te melding of all the alternate characters and absence of real antagonists wore thin for me

Jan 03 16:32:04 <rimworlder> ronn - (ed) - does make one wonder about an author's personal pecadillos, doesn't it?

Jan 03 16:32:20 <SolBelter> EML -absolutely- i was raised on the juvs

Jan 03 16:32:45 <EML> it can be offputting when an aged writer suddenly discovers sex.

Jan 03 16:32:56 <SolBelter> and call myself one of heinleins children (engineering degree-love of space)

Jan 03 16:33:01 <Lensman> Rim: I didn't say I did not like JOW; I just liked it somewhat less than FOW.

Jan 03 16:33:42 <Hippy> Well, I'm 46 - does that count?

Jan 03 16:34:31 <EML> Lens: if you didn't like JUGGLER, that'd be okay. No one likes everything. I'd be mortified if my popping onto the chat induced self-censorship.

Jan 03 16:34:35 * Fred (~Fred@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 16:34:47 <Hippy> G'day, Fred

Jan 03 16:35:17 <SolBelter> the later books had great episodes like "lazy midshipman"

Jan 03 16:35:17 <ronn> rim: they are all indoors, except when they follow me to the mailbox or whatever or run outside when the door is open for another reason.

Jan 03 16:35:18 <Lensman> Only 2 books I've ever thrown across the room was /Sirens of Titan/ by Vonnegut and /The Riddlemaster of Hed/, don't remember the author.

Jan 03 16:35:27 <Fred> Hippy New Year!

Jan 03 16:35:33 <EML> Yowza ... I've never seen a chat this populous.

Jan 03 16:35:43 <Fred> Should I leave?

Jan 03 16:35:58 <EML> the more, the maerrier.

Jan 03 16:36:06 <Hippy> Groweler hasn't got here yet, either

Jan 03 16:36:08 <rimworlder> louis CTD?

Jan 03 16:36:32 <LouisWu> rimworlder: Circling The Drain

Jan 03 16:36:38 <Fred> Unless I start telling dentist stories again. I actually do have a non painful happy ending one.

Jan 03 16:36:57 <EML> crash test dummies?

Jan 03 16:37:18 <NickE> Hi all

Jan 03 16:37:18 <Hippy> Say on, Fred

Jan 03 16:37:19 * EML has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Jan 03 16:37:30 <NickE> oh shit was that me :-)

Jan 03 16:37:30 <Hippy> G'day, Nick

Jan 03 16:37:34 <Fred> oh, man

Jan 03 16:37:42 <rimworlder> Ed - that's become a big issue with me lately in doing (more and more) reviews; I have to remember it's not the person but the book, and that if I'm truly honest in my opinion, folks (especially the authors who I know) will just have to deal; doesn't make it any easier

Jan 03 16:37:48 <Fred> I ran EML off again@?@?@@?@?

Jan 03 16:37:49 <Lensman> Ed: Well, you have a couple of times contacted me to ask about KS details or continuity, and I'd hate that to stop because of anything I said about the latest KS book.

Jan 03 16:37:54 <NickE> Hoopy New Year all

Jan 03 16:38:32 <Hippy> Oh, it's alread old for me :)

Jan 03 16:38:34 * EML (~EML@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 16:38:38 <NickE> BW

Jan 03 16:38:42 <NickE> BW even

Jan 03 16:38:45 <Jim> Ed's back

Jan 03 16:38:47 <LouisWu> EML: Welcome back :)

Jan 03 16:38:47 <NickE> WB even

Jan 03 16:38:50 <Fred> Hey Ed!

Jan 03 16:38:56 * Dan duct tapes Ed to the channel.

Jan 03 16:39:08 <rimworlder> Dan - leave his hands free

Jan 03 16:39:26 <Lensman> Fred, PLEASE do not chase Ed away with dentist stories!

Jan 03 16:39:27 <EML> stoopid Internet. My browser just crashed.

Jan 03 16:39:33 <ronn> I grew up on the RAH juveniles, decided to become a professional astronomer, and was going to apply to become an astronaut until the multiverse apparently had other plans . . .

Jan 03 16:40:00 <NickE> Got JOW yesterday, but go ahead anyway, not seen anything that sounds too spoilery

Jan 03 16:40:13 <SolBelter> EML, a reprise [16:34] <rimworlder> Ed - that's become a big issue with me lately in doing (more and more) reviews; I have to remember it's not the person but the book, and that if I'm truly honest in my opinion, folks (especially the authors who I know) will just have to deal; doesn't make it any easier

Jan 03 16:40:20 <rimworlder> ronn - I feel for ya: I had an appointment to the Air Force Academy waiting for me (governor of PA) and I turned it down cause they got up at 4 am to run 2 miles every morning

Jan 03 16:41:05 <SolBelter> AND also - <Lensman> Ed: Well, you have a couple of times contacted me to ask about KS details or continuity, and I'd hate that to stop because of anything I said about the latest KS book.

Jan 03 16:41:19 <EML> Rim: writing isn't a business in which one can be thin-skinned.

Jan 03 16:41:19 <Lensman> I still have not read /Time ENough for Love/. Read /# of the Beast/ because someone told me it has a Lensman sequence in it... it does, but it's extremely short. Anyway, I completely missed the 2nd half of /Beast/ because I hadn't read /Time Enuff/.

Jan 03 16:41:34 <Fred> He'd like it to stop, just not for that reason :)

Jan 03 16:42:05 <rimworlder> ed - not at all, but still - no fun telling friends that their stuff sucks - not that I've done that yet to anyone (Sivell isn't someone I know...)

Jan 03 16:42:20 * Lazy8 has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Jan 03 16:42:39 <EML> Lens: not to worry -- I'll still be happy to pick your brains.

Jan 03 16:42:53 <Lensman> Ed: Thank you.

Jan 03 16:43:00 <ronn> rim: That was never my favorite part of the Air Force, either . . . although I went through AFROTC while getting my master's degree in math.

Jan 03 16:43:34 <rimworlder> yeah, same here. it is a very weird relationship tho if you think about it: some guy writes something, someone else pays to pick it up, then tells other folks whether they should spend their money or not

Jan 03 16:44:33 <rimworlder> ronn - still, its a stupid reason for turning that down - not saying I'd have made the cut to the astronaut program - but 4 am runs is NOT the reason to gie up on space

Jan 03 16:44:52 <EML> The only time I have a gripe with a review is when I think the reviewer speed-read it and missed half the words.

Jan 03 16:45:24 <rimworlder> ed - do you ever want to get in touch and say 'ummm - you obviously do not know how to read...?'

Jan 03 16:46:11 <EML> Rim: I sometimes think it, but I odn't indulge. Getting into a grudge match with a reviewer can't do me any good.

Jan 03 16:46:33 <rimworlder> no, but it would probably feel good once

Jan 03 16:46:34 <Lensman> LOL or "I think you've confused my book with the one below it in your reading pile" or "I think you should actually read my book before reviewing in, instead of having your girlfriend read it and tell you about it."

Jan 03 16:47:03 <EML> On *rare* occasions I have used the Amazon comment feature to make a correction of fact in a seriously flawed review.

Jan 03 16:47:42 <EML> Like the review that thought Juggler (or maybe it was Fleet) was supposed to be a MKW book.

Jan 03 16:47:52 <Fred> Ooo, I bet we can do a 'show us all Ed's comments' and find those easily

Jan 03 16:48:16 <Lensman> LOL! Yah I remember that. "There should have been more military stuff in this..." Idiot.

Jan 03 16:48:30 <rimworlder> lol. I have to go walk Bo the wonder dog, brb

Jan 03 16:48:56 <rimworlder> lol - "tell you what - you buy the manuscript and THEN you can tell me what to put in it..."

Jan 03 16:49:10 <ronn> rim: I didn't say it was. Obviously I did it, at least in sufficient quantity to get a commission. What I didn't know at the time is how soon it would be before I couldn't do it, or even walk several miles most days when the weather was at all cooperative as I did for years . . .

Jan 03 16:49:35 <EML> I once felt compelled to comment when a reviewer liked my contribution to an antho but attributed it to someone else.

Jan 03 16:50:02 <Jim> I have made that mistake before.

Jan 03 16:50:04 <Lensman> Guess that reader didn't notice JOW is *not* a Baen book.

Jan 03 16:50:23 <Fred> hey! No JOW spoilers!

Jan 03 16:50:29 <EML> nor did it have M, K, or W in its title.

Jan 03 16:50:30 * LouisWu has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Jan 03 16:51:05 <Lensman> Fred: Sorry, this chat has been deemed JOW spoiler-approved.

Jan 03 16:51:08 <Dan> When I was doing book reviews, I'd refuse to write a review of a book I didn't like. But I did e-mail the sender and tell them why I didn't enjoy it.

Jan 03 16:51:48 * Hippy will be lurking for a bit

Jan 03 16:51:58 <ronn> But not root-canal horror story approved . . .

Jan 03 16:52:03 * Hippy is now known as The_Lurking_Eye

Jan 03 16:53:05 <ronn> brb (I hope)

Jan 03 16:53:09 <EML> Fred, the JOW discussion seems to have died down. If it flares up, I'll strive to be cryptic in my responses.

Jan 03 16:53:31 <Fred> Ed, I was kidding. I've read both books some time ago now.

Jan 03 16:53:52 <EML> (hangs head.) Okay.

Jan 03 16:54:01 <Fred> Was acting like expecting Baen to show up at any moment was a spoiler :)

Jan 03 16:54:37 <EML> Here's an interesting (to me, anyway) observation -- Fleet got many more reviews than Juggler.

Jan 03 16:54:58 <Fred> "Suddenly Baen walked in and shut off the flux capacitor, reversing the polarity of the neutron flow"

Jan 03 16:55:09 <Fred> "We're saved!" fluted Nessus!

Jan 03 16:55:39 <Jim> Baen?

Jan 03 16:56:35 <EML> Larry & I put a Baen homage into Juggler. Anyone notice it?

Jan 03 16:56:42 <Jim> No

Jan 03 16:57:29 <Jim> On the other hand, I seem to vaguely recall the name of a station named Baen.

Jan 03 16:57:44 <Lensman> So getting Siggy to you-know-where at the end of JOW was a setup for /Destroyer of Worlds/. Hmmm well maybe I should have realized that, but I didn't. Interesting...

Jan 03 16:57:58 <Lensman> Ed: Yes.

Jan 03 16:58:00 <EML> The Siruius system has a hyperwave radio relay station (just as Sol system has Southworth [or some such] station). The relay distantly orbiting Sirius is James P. Baen station.

Jan 03 16:58:16 <NickE> nice

Jan 03 16:58:45 <Lensman> P. 84, 144: "James P. Baen station". It's in my notes.

Jan 03 16:59:04 <EML> Lens: Juggler wasn't set-up by design -- but when Tor asked us about another book, we built on what had gone before.

Jan 03 16:59:48 <Lensman> Ed: Oh? I assumed the idea for a second KS book originated with you and Larry, not the publisher.

Jan 03 16:59:58 <Lensman> Speaking of Larry, why didn't he show up today?

Jan 03 17:00:12 <EML> The other homage was to Hal Clement (aka, Harry Stubbs).

Jan 03 17:00:32 <Lensman> Sometimes when he's not gonna be here he e-mails me in response to my chat announcement, but not this time.

Jan 03 17:00:48 <EML> I don't know where Larry is today.

Jan 03 17:00:55 <Fred> Larry hasn't been to a chat all year has he?

Jan 03 17:01:13 <EML> Not all fo 2009, no :-)

Jan 03 17:01:41 <Lensman> Okay, Ed, since you want JOW comments:

Jan 03 17:01:45 <EML> Sometimes authors suggest sequels. Sometimes publishers ask.

Jan 03 17:01:48 <SolBelter> I recall Larry at least twice last summer...

Jan 03 17:01:58 <Lensman> (1) Why did you give Nessus eyes of two different colors?

Jan 03 17:02:05 <Fred> Humour, Sol

Jan 03 17:02:47 <SolBelter> (ah, human humr! <taking notes>)

Jan 03 17:02:48 <Lensman> (2) The reference to "Atlantis". Is that an underwater city on earth?

Jan 03 17:02:50 <Fred> Nessus has 2 different color eyes for the same reason the kid in the WOLVERINE trailer does

Jan 03 17:03:26 <Lensman> (3) Howcum when Siggy asks Carlos about how to accelerate a ship to near-lightspeed, Carlos can't think of the gravity polarizer?

Jan 03 17:03:59 <Lensman> Larry was here just 2-3 months ago, I'm sure.

Jan 03 17:04:08 <Fred> HUMOUR

Jan 03 17:04:12 <Fred> sheesh

Jan 03 17:04:21 <Fred> it's a difficult concept

Jan 03 17:04:31 <Fred> (Ed got it!)

Jan 03 17:05:13 <Lensman> (4) Howcum you again confused the issue about four-versus-six Man-Kzin Wars, when Larry specified in the "Canon for the MKW" that it was really four, not six?

Jan 03 17:05:30 <ronn> back. Had to leave for the American-Standard reason. When I got to the other end of the house I noticed out the window that the guy next door is washing his car during a brief break (no Quadrantids anywhere around here this morning :() before the rain is supposed to really come down. In fairness I expect he plans to pull it back under his carport before it starts raining again . . .

Jan 03 17:05:32 <EML> red and yellow eyes? honestly, I don't remember. I kinda thought it was mentioned in canon somewhere but I can't put my finger on it.

Jan 03 17:05:42 <ronn> Ed: I got the homages.

Jan 03 17:06:20 <ronn> So, Fred, why does the kid in the trailer have two different color eyes?

Jan 03 17:06:30 <Fred> I have no freaking idea

Jan 03 17:06:37 <Fred> :)

Jan 03 17:06:39 <Lensman> (5) Doncha think only a dozen starships lost in all the time Humans have been using hyperdrive is pretty low? Especially since in "The Soft Weapon" it's made clear that rogue Kzinti ambush Human ships from time to time?

Jan 03 17:07:00 <Fred> I'm told it's because "He's Stryker's kid" but I don't know what that means

Jan 03 17:07:41 <EML> the Atlantis reference -- entirely throwaway -- was just the classical meaning. Herodotus would have gotten it.

Jan 03 17:07:44 <rimworlder> Ed - I don't find that surprising - it was touted as 'the return to known space'

Jan 03 17:08:14 <Lensman> (6) P. 270: ""Three Citizens... were burly. All wore the gray-and-black sashes of foreign ministry security and the slightly crazed look of bodyguards and thugs." Do Puppeteers really have "thugs"?

Jan 03 17:08:15 <rimworlder> besides, all those Baen readers probably picked up the first one because of the word 'fleet' in the title

Jan 03 17:08:53 <EML> gravity planer, thruster, fusion rocket -- the drive type doesn't matter. who can carry the fuel?

Jan 03 17:09:02 <Fred> Amazon keeps trying to sell me *anything* with "World" in the title now

Jan 03 17:09:20 <rimworlder> fred - lol - I won't tell you what they're recommending to me

Jan 03 17:09:27 <Fred> heh

Jan 03 17:09:58 <Lensman> In "The Warriors", a Kzinti ship matches velocity with the /Angel's Pencil/ at 80% lightspeed. If the Kzinti ship can carry the fuel for that, why not a human ship?

Jan 03 17:10:05 <EML> 4 vs. 6 MKW? Again, I thought we were following canon. So, apparently, did Larry.

Jan 03 17:10:16 <Fred> thank kdapt they added that 'stop trying to sell me stuff based on this item' button

Jan 03 17:10:27 <SeanS> heh

Jan 03 17:10:41 <SeanS> just got back from furniture shopping with the gf

Jan 03 17:10:46 <SeanS> joy joy joy

Jan 03 17:11:01 <Jim> happy happy happy

Jan 03 17:11:05 <SeanS> lol

Jan 03 17:11:07 <Lensman> (7) p. 53: GP sells ship hulls, not cabin gravity control. (Ha! Vindicated!)

Jan 03 17:12:05 <Lensman> (8) p. 43: "Planetary government outfitted GP hulls as warships all the time." (Yah, that's what we thought, but it's nice to have it confirmed.)

Jan 03 17:12:46 <EML> why can't puppeteers have the occasional thug? out of a trillion citizens, wouldn't some be more thuggish than others?

Jan 03 17:12:56 <Fred> "Yes. You kept winning, Louis. For three centuries and four wars you had been winning."

Jan 03 17:13:24 <rimworlder> speaking of wars - if no one has a tv on, Israel just started ground ops in Gaza

Jan 03 17:13:26 <EML> One of my pet peeves is totally homogenous aliens. why should aliens be any more homogenous than humans?

Jan 03 17:13:38 <Fred> from Ringworld. That is of course in reference to how Kdapt got started. Might have been a couple more wars after that.

Jan 03 17:14:05 <ronn> Ed: Wouldn't a Puppeteer Thug need to use two scarves simultaneously? How would he hold them?

Jan 03 17:14:09 <Dan> Hiya, Sean.

Jan 03 17:14:10 <rimworlder> whoever asked about disappearing ships - just because a ship got ambushed doesn't mean it wasn't found later

Jan 03 17:14:32 <Fred> slightly later, Nessus says

Jan 03 17:14:36 <Fred> " "Six times over several centuries, you attacked the worlds of men. Six times you were defeated, having lost approximately two-thirds of your male population in each war. Need I comment on the level of intelligence displayed? No?"

Jan 03 17:14:55 <Fred> Six wars. I award the point to Ed.

Jan 03 17:14:56 <rimworlder> fred - but they might not all have been 'wars'

Jan 03 17:15:13 <Fred> nessus uses the word 'war'

Jan 03 17:15:22 <EML> um, scarves? I miss the joke.

Jan 03 17:15:24 <rimworlder> yes, and we call the korean police action a war

Jan 03 17:15:28 <ronn> Maybe two of those were considered "police actions" like frex Korea . . .

Jan 03 17:15:30 <rimworlder> and viet nam a 'war'

Jan 03 17:15:44 <Fred> I do recall (and am still looking for) a phrase along the lines of 'x wars and a couple of skirmishes'

Jan 03 17:15:55 <rimworlder> Fred - its in there, I remember it too

Jan 03 17:16:01 <Fred> I think it's in reference to speakers claws

Jan 03 17:16:05 <ronn> Ed: See the origin of the word "Thug" . . .

Jan 03 17:16:10 <SeanS> yep.. its in RE during the flashback to the hunting park

Jan 03 17:17:02 <ronn> As in the Thugee: assassins who strangled their victims with yellow scarves . . .

Jan 03 17:17:18 <rimworlder> off topic question: anyone here involved with/familiar with internet advertising, seo, that kind of thingie?

Jan 03 17:17:43 <SolBelter> the kzin says 4 wars, the non-kzin 6 - a matter of pride or precision? or definition of "war" vs "pirate action "

Jan 03 17:17:45 <EML> FWIW, explicitly shows 6 MKW.

Jan 03 17:17:52 <Fred> from RE

Jan 03 17:17:59 <Fred> "Four Man-Kzin wars, plus a few 201cincidents201d ... Louis kept his mouth shut."

Jan 03 17:18:10 <Lensman> Sure, Puppeteers should be as varied as Humans are. But it's rather a jarring contrast to: "No sane puppeteer will cross a vehicular roadway or travel in any but the safest available fashion or resist a thief, even an unarmed thief." (from "The Soft Weapon")

Jan 03 17:18:16 <ronn> rim: I presume you mean other than getting enough of it to be sick of it? :-P

Jan 03 17:18:33 <rimworlder> ronn - well, yes

Jan 03 17:18:36 <EML> ronn: fair enough. and Hah! I was being literal, and using the mundane meaning of "thug."

Jan 03 17:18:43 <Fred> Nessus calls it 6 wars, Louis calls it 4+

Jan 03 17:19:01 <Fred> I declare everybody right :)

Jan 03 17:19:07 <rimworlder> hey - who cares how many MKWs - we beat the crap outta them!

Jan 03 17:19:45 <rimworlder> and we'll do it again the next time!

Jan 03 17:19:56 <EML> Lens: so maybe the thugs aren't sane. It's said they looked crazed.

Jan 03 17:20:07 <rimworlder> (Starship Troopers meets Known Space - the movie)

Jan 03 17:20:12 <EML> Why should scouts have all the insane fun?

Jan 03 17:20:41 <rimworlder> would it be unreasonable to assume that puppeteers have drugs that can affect behavior?

Jan 03 17:21:34 <EML> Not to me.

Jan 03 17:22:10 <EML> THat said, if the scouts get their insanity naturally, so could the occasional Puppeteer bully.

Jan 03 17:22:15 <Fred> they'd have to, just for the dentist visits. Two mouths, twice the teeth, twice the drugs.

Jan 03 17:22:23 <rimworlder> fred - LOL!

Jan 03 17:22:36 <rimworlder> wait - no teeth, just fleshy knobs...

Jan 03 17:22:38 <Lensman> From "Canon for the Man-Kzin Wars": "'Six times over several centuries, the Kzinti attacked the worlds of men...' I've forgotten where the quote comes from, but at least two 'incidents' must have been major ones." (/Scatterbrain/ p. 293). On p. 294 there are details for the FOUR wars. Four, not six.

Jan 03 17:22:46 <ronn> The Thug reference brings up a question: I suppose strangling both of a Puppeteers necks would cut off the air supply to the brain? Though presumably the heart or equivalent is in the body with the brain, so perhaps it would take quite some time for unconsciousness or death to occur via hypoxia? (I suppose Nessus's injury in RW is the main thing we have to speculate from?)

Jan 03 17:22:55 <Fred> (afraid to look; Ed is glaring at me, isn't he?)

Jan 03 17:22:59 <Lensman> Ed: Re "thugs" I agree, just throwing out comments for discussion.

Jan 03 17:23:21 <ronn> EVERYBODY is, Fred . . .

Jan 03 17:23:25 <Fred> No, rim, nessus has teeth

Jan 03 17:24:02 <EML> herbivores need teety. grass isn't easy to gum.

Jan 03 17:24:49 <ronn> Presumably they could have a gizzard, like birds who have no teeth and eat seeds, etc. . . .

Jan 03 17:25:05 <Lensman> You don't render someone unconscious *quickly* by strangulation by cutting off the air supply. You do it by constricting the carotid arteries carrying blood to the brain. Obviously that doesn't work with Puppeteers, who have their brains in their torso.

Jan 03 17:25:43 <ronn> Though they'd probably need something like incisors at least to snip off the grass.

Jan 03 17:25:46 <Lensman> Puppeteers definitely have teeth, per "The Soft Weapon".

Jan 03 17:26:27 <ronn> Lens: That was my point in my later message.

Jan 03 17:26:49 <rimworlder> ronn - geese are grass eaters and have no teeth...

Jan 03 17:27:13 <rimworlder> but I stand corrected - I focused on the fleshy knobs rimming the lips from (I think) the first ever description

Jan 03 17:27:42 <ronn> But they have a bill.

Jan 03 17:27:44 <ronn> (Making them sad on humid mornings when their bills are over dew . . . )

Jan 03 17:27:45 <EML> Ringworld is explicit about teeth, too.

Jan 03 17:27:58 <EML> ronn: GROAN

Jan 03 17:28:00 <rimworlder> ronn - omg - that HURT!

Jan 03 17:28:37 <rimworlder> ed - like I said, I focused on the fleshy knobbies - I was having impure thoughts about puppeteers and their sexy voices

Jan 03 17:28:47 <ronn> Blame someone else: it's older than I am . . .

Jan 03 17:29:15 <ronn> rim: get your mind out of the gutter . .

Jan 03 17:29:24 <Jim> Rimworlder: Many kinds of loving. Blunt teeth.

Jan 03 17:29:24 <rimworlder> rishathra!

Jan 03 17:29:45 * SolBelter has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Jan 03 17:29:51 * The_Lurking_Eye is now known as Hippy

Jan 03 17:29:58 <EML> i'm gonna toddle off soon. Anyone have any other FOW/JOW/DOW questions they're dying to ask?

Jan 03 17:30:01 <Jim> hippy!

Jan 03 17:30:15 <Lensman> When Nessus kicked Chuft-Captain, the shock made Nessus' "snap his teeth shut with a sharp double click".

Jan 03 17:30:24 <ronn> Did Sol get offended? :-D

Jan 03 17:30:27 <Hippy> Howdy, Jim. Yes, back after getting ready to carpe this diem

Jan 03 17:30:33 <Fred> Anchored by his teeth to an exercise rung, Nessus peered over Louis's shoulder.

Jan 03 17:30:37 <rimworlder> ed - yes - send me that pr person's info again please - I want to bug her

Jan 03 17:30:56 <Fred> Neesus came down gripping the rope with alternate sets of teeth.

Jan 03 17:31:03 <rimworlder> ok ok ok ok!

Jan 03 17:31:03 <Lensman> Geese and ducks eat from the mushy bottom of ponds and lakes. They eat soft vegetation, less need for teeth.

Jan 03 17:31:16 <Fred> so he has them in BOTH mouths!

Jan 03 17:31:23 <EML> Umm, I'd rather not bug a PR person. Like bugging reviewers, it's counterproductive.

Jan 03 17:31:28 <rimworlder> lens - I spent many springs with canada geese in close proximity and they pull grass out of the ground

Jan 03 17:31:37 <Hippy> Another Niven reflection on symmetry

Jan 03 17:31:43 <ronn> So never tell a PP to "Bite me!" . . .

Jan 03 17:31:44 <rimworlder> Ed - didn't mean it that way, but no problemo

Jan 03 17:31:55 <Fred> but you know what does NOT have teeth:

Jan 03 17:31:57 <Fred> There were no teeth in the Ringworld's horizon, and no curves.

Jan 03 17:32:20 <ronn> Your grandpa?

Jan 03 17:32:28 <rimworlder> they also herd their younguns over to the apes for handouts

Jan 03 17:32:59 <Fred> okay, Nessus, Louis, Speaker, and Teela all have teeth. RW says so. :D

Jan 03 17:33:04 <rimworlder> oh and Ed - if I ever get something wrong in a review of anything by you - tell me

Jan 03 17:33:29 <Jim> Teela did not have teeth after she ate of the Tree of Life.

Jan 03 17:33:40 <EML> Rim: sure.

Jan 03 17:33:43 <Lensman> Rim: Okay. I did say *less* need for teeth, not "none".

Jan 03 17:33:46 <rimworlder> jim - she also wasn't all that attractive anymore

Jan 03 17:33:46 <Hippy> What about Prill?

Jan 03 17:34:02 <ronn> But did she eat grass then?

Jan 03 17:34:10 <Fred> um

Jan 03 17:34:20 <Fred> Teela the protector has teeth

Jan 03 17:34:22 <EML> okay, folk ... me and whatever teeth I have left are off to dinner.

Jan 03 17:34:33 <Hippy> Teela might've done all right in the Lesbian bodybuilding market

Jan 03 17:34:35 <Lensman> LOL This is the most stream-of-consciousness Niven chat...

Jan 03 17:34:36 <ronn> Bye, Ed!

Jan 03 17:34:36 <Fred> The furry alien hand sank its claws in her silver hair and pulled her head back, and pulled her teeth loose from Louis Wu2019s throat.

Jan 03 17:34:41 <rimworlder> good to talk to you again Ed - see you on the blog!

Jan 03 17:34:45 <Lensman> No, Teela-monster does *not* have teeth!

Jan 03 17:34:50 <Fred> no

Jan 03 17:34:50 <Hippy> 'Bye, Ed!

Jan 03 17:34:58 <Fred> I'm looking at a vampire reference

Jan 03 17:35:01 <Fred> duh

Jan 03 17:35:01 <Lensman> Goodbye Ed!

Jan 03 17:35:02 <EML> ttfn

Jan 03 17:35:03 <Fred> sorry

Jan 03 17:35:05 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Jan 03 17:35:11 <Hippy> 'Teela monster'! Well done, Lens

Jan 03 17:35:22 <Fred> Vala has teeth

Jan 03 17:35:33 <ronn> Lens: would you prefer stream of unconsciousness?

Jan 03 17:35:43 <Fred> Ghoul women have teeth

Jan 03 17:35:47 <Hippy> Grass giants, Ginjerofer etc have teeth

Jan 03 17:35:48 <Lensman> Ronn: That wasn't a complaint...

Jan 03 17:35:51 <Fred> Larry talks about teeth a lot

Jan 03 17:36:00 <Hippy> Mar Korssil had teeth, I think

Jan 03 17:36:06 <Lensman> Fred: No, it's just you.

Jan 03 17:36:09 <rimworlder> was it RWE where they pulled vampire teeth so they could kleep them around for the pheremones?

Jan 03 17:36:12 <Fred> Night people men have teeth

Jan 03 17:36:19 <Hippy> Well, as he says in RT, dentition says a lot about a species

Jan 03 17:36:30 <Fred> Yep, Mar Korsill has teeth

Jan 03 17:36:35 <Lensman> Rim: Yes, the City Builders had that perversion.

Jan 03 17:36:39 <ronn> I just thought that it would be a lot quieter if everyone were unconscious . . .

Jan 03 17:36:46 <Fred> Mar Korssil studied him with blue eyes as big as goggles. She had formidable claws on her fingers, and buck teeth like axheads.

Jan 03 17:36:51 <rimworlder> perversion? better than viagra, I'd say

Jan 03 17:37:02 <Fred> Harkabeeparolyn was nestled in the probe, where Louis had been a moment ago. Her hands strangled the stock of a projectile weapon. Her lips were skinned back from her teeth.

Jan 03 17:37:56 <Fred> the hindmost has teeth, so Nessus isn't an anomoly :)

Jan 03 17:38:04 <Hippy> Now postulate a hominid that wouldn't have teeth - no Protectors allowed

Jan 03 17:38:13 <Lensman> It was considered a perversion in the culture. Embarrassed to talk about it.

Jan 03 17:38:33 <Hippy> The Experimentalist faction all have teeth, the Conservatives don't

Jan 03 17:38:34 <rimworlder> yes, I remember, but like all such, more people engaged in it that admitted it

Jan 03 17:38:40 <rimworlder> hippy - lol

Jan 03 17:38:42 <Fred> The puppeteer's loose, robbery lips extended inches beyond its teeth. They were as dry as human fingers and they were rimmed with little fingerlike knobs. Behind the square teeth, Louis caught a glimpse of a flickering, forking tongue.

Jan 03 17:39:00 <Jim> don't believe Kinsey's numbers

Jan 03 17:39:06 <Lensman> Hippy: Sorry, I can't. Teeth are very much a part of evolution. If it evolves enuff that it doesn't have teeth, then it ain't hominid anymore.

Jan 03 17:39:33 <ronn> Hippy: As I suggested earlier, perhaps your grandpa, whose teeth remind folks of the stars, because they come out at night . . .

Jan 03 17:39:41 <Hippy> Interesting, Lens. . .

Jan 03 17:39:46 <rimworlder> omg - can we get off the teeth thing? I'll put a page up on my website saying "PUPPETEERS HAVE TEETH" and credit everyone in the chat room with having corrected me on this fundamental aspect of human knowledge

Jan 03 17:39:57 <Fred> Okay, nothing about Prill's teeth.

Jan 03 17:40:05 <Fred> and I'm done now :)

Jan 03 17:40:26 <Lensman> Well, if Fred will STOP DOING A TEXT SEARCH ON ALL OF THE RINGWORLD BOOKS FOR "TEETH"...

Jan 03 17:40:47 <Fred> Sooby, baby, a little bit late on that one

Jan 03 17:40:53 <Fred> :P

Jan 03 17:41:14 <Hippy> Okay, so. . .earlobes. How many hominids have earlobes?

Jan 03 17:41:19 <ronn> Lens: Apparently primitive teeth were the first hard parts that show up in the fossil record.

Jan 03 17:41:23 <rimworlder> hippy - omg - lol

Jan 03 17:41:24 <Hippy> And Cupid's bows

Jan 03 17:41:41 <ronn> But do Puppeteers ever need dentures?

Jan 03 17:41:45 <Lensman> "Cupid's bows" = everted lips?

Jan 03 17:41:48 <Hippy> And. . .nipples on male hominids

Jan 03 17:41:53 <rimworlder> lens - some tv show did a very fine analysis of that evolution not too long ago - discovery or history or someone

Jan 03 17:42:00 <Hippy> Yeah,Lens. The filtrum

Jan 03 17:42:03 <SeanS> i would say no dentures... their medical technology would allow them to regrow teeth

Jan 03 17:42:19 <rimworlder> sean - yeah, just slap on a new head

Jan 03 17:42:22 <Fred> The odd kzinti ears, that could expand like pink chinese parasols or fold flat against the head, were spread wide; and Louis could see the design tattooed on each surface.

Jan 03 17:42:29 <ronn> How about a Kzin with dentures?

Jan 03 17:42:38 <Hippy> Machine People technology wouldn't

Jan 03 17:42:42 <rimworlder> ronn - steel

Jan 03 17:42:45 <SeanS> nah... they would count it as a battle scar

Jan 03 17:43:04 <Hippy> We're back on the teeth again!!

Jan 03 17:43:16 <Lensman> All mammals are essentially female, with some body parts converted by the Y chromosome. So I would expect all hominids to have nipples. Heck, my male dog has nipples. Contrariwise, birds are all male with some parts switched to female... it's been suggested in MKW stories that Kzinti genetics works that way.

Jan 03 17:43:24 <Fred> so who wants to hear my happy dentist story?

Jan 03 17:43:35 <ronn> Someone has an oral fixation today . . .

Jan 03 17:43:43 <rimworlder> fred - does it involve teeth?

Jan 03 17:43:52 <Hippy> Yes, Fred. I'd forgotten about that

Jan 03 17:43:57 <Jim> The Greg Benford / Arthur C. Clarke novel Beyond the Edge of Night had a species of hominid with teeth that were a single piece.

Jan 03 17:44:02 <Lensman> Jeez can we stop with the teeth? !!!

Jan 03 17:44:07 <ronn> My cats — all male — all have had several pairs of nipples . . .

Jan 03 17:44:16 <Fred> the follow up to all my root canal work

Jan 03 17:44:18 <rimworlder> lens - give it up - its a chat room thing

Jan 03 17:44:30 <ronn> I thought we'd moved on to n*ppl*s . . .

Jan 03 17:44:39 <Fred> I've still got the temporary caps in, 'cause Mom had her stroke before I could get the finals

Jan 03 17:44:44 <Lensman> Ronn: Yah I guess so.

Jan 03 17:44:47 <rimworlder> brb - gotta go explain the incursion into gaza to the wife

Jan 03 17:45:10 <ronn> It needs explanation?

Jan 03 17:45:10 <Fred> so the day after xmas, after 2 months, I finally lose one

Jan 03 17:45:26 <ronn> Fred: n*ppl*?

Jan 03 17:45:33 <Lensman> What's to explain? Just give her a copy of the Old Testament, and say "Same ol', same ol'".

Jan 03 17:45:45 <Fred> I call the dentist and get a message that he's closed for 2 weeks

Jan 03 17:46:19 <ronn> So did you tell him what he tells his patients: "Open wide"?

Jan 03 17:46:31 <Fred> He calls back, says they're closed for remodeling, but the goes right out, clears out a space, sets up a little workstation, calls me and tells me to come over

Jan 03 17:46:45 <Fred> glues it back in, and refuses to charge me

Jan 03 17:47:02 <ronn> You lost a tooth or a filling?

Jan 03 17:47:16 <Fred> all within like 2 hours of my original call, on dec 26

Jan 03 17:47:25 <Lensman> Anway, yess I would expect that Puppeteer medical science is sufficiently advanced that they don't use dentures.

Jan 03 17:47:48 <Lensman> Or any sort of prosthetics.

Jan 03 17:47:50 <Fred> lost a temporary crown over a root canal. I still had the crown itself, was just in my pocket instead of my mouth

Jan 03 17:48:39 <Fred> from ringworld, re puppeteer replacement parts:

Jan 03 17:48:42 <Fred> There were two heads in there, and two more with necks attached, and enough organs and body parts to make several complete puppeteers. Grown from Nessus himself, probably; the faces on the heads looked familiar.

Jan 03 17:49:08 <Hippy> Fred, that is brilliant! Service is not dead!

Jan 03 17:49:10 <Lensman> Well spotted, Fred! I had forgotten that.

Jan 03 17:49:27 <Fred> Hippy, yeah, I was impressed!

Jan 03 17:49:46 <Fred> Lens, I always remember that when we talk about the size of autodocs

Jan 03 17:49:46 <SeanS> that is impressive... after that i would keep going back to him

Jan 03 17:49:56 <Fred> yese

Jan 03 17:49:58 <Lensman> In that case, seems odd that Nessus had to be taken back to Hearth for head replacement surgery.

Jan 03 17:50:14 <Hippy> It might be worth my while flying over, too

Jan 03 17:50:17 <Fred> shhhh

Jan 03 17:50:30 <Fred> not supposed to bring that up

Jan 03 17:50:53 <ronn> Do you suppose they had dentures prior to autodocs?

Jan 03 17:50:55 <ronn> (And I recalled the heads in the autodoc: I was just taking a speculation and running with it . . . )

Jan 03 17:51:28 <Lensman> I'm surprised no one has mentioned /The Man Whose Teeth Were All Exactly Alike/.

Jan 03 17:51:28 <rimworlder> what's to explain about gaza? 'what are those lights drifting down? are those RPGs? shoyuldn't they have the lights off in those buildings?...

Jan 03 17:52:25 <Lensman> That'

Jan 03 17:52:33 <SeanS> hamas: we hate you and are going to keep throwing stuff at you. israel: dont or we have a lot better stuff to throw back.

Jan 03 17:52:35 <rimworlder> ans: flares, going down, not up, not RPGs; yes, they ought to have the lights off, unless they are trying to ATTRACT attention to that building - probably has all the women and children in it

Jan 03 17:52:38 <Lensman> That's a P.K. Dick title, BTW.

Jan 03 17:52:44 <ronn> "rimworlder> what's to explain about gaza? " How about why the people living there blame America instead of Hamas?

Jan 03 17:53:21 <rimworlder> I have to be careful on this subject, as it is one of the few that I am not rational about

Jan 03 17:54:12 <Lensman> Irrational on the subject? Why should you be different than the Jews and Arabs?

Jan 03 17:54:33 <rimworlder> I have relatives in Israel, and one of them is a 'peace now' noodnik - about which I am not rational either

Jan 03 17:55:00 <rimworlder> lens - here's where I get into trouble - the Israelis are entirely rational...

Jan 03 17:55:19 <Jim> What is a noodnik?

Jan 03 17:55:20 * Hippy will still clear of this one - and talk about Robert Mugabe instead :)

Jan 03 17:55:42 <ronn> Does "rational" on the topic mean you are not on one side or the other as to who is in the "right" and who is in the "wrong"?

Jan 03 17:55:47 <rimworlder> oh - I won't get into it - I just thought it was funny that I "had to explain the gaza incursion"

Jan 03 17:56:16 <Lensman> I think it's funny too. Same thing that's been going on for thousands of years.

Jan 03 17:56:32 <rimworlder> ronn - oh no. irrational as in - there is no such thing as a palestinian, tney've made trouble wherever they go, the next place ought to be into the mediterranean

Jan 03 17:56:57 <ronn> "Jim> What is a noodnik?" — Should be obvious from the context it is not a compliment ;-)

Jan 03 17:57:14 <rimworlder> jim - idiot

Jan 03 17:57:22 <Lensman> I'm guessing "noodnik" is one of thousands or millions of synonyms for "idiot".

Jan 03 17:57:35 <ronn> I thought it was "the Jews" who are supposed to be "pushed into the sea" . . .

Jan 03 17:57:37 <Jim> Rimworlder: useful idiot?

Jan 03 17:57:44 <rimworlder> I was trying not to foist the irrationality on folks here - but like I said, irrational

Jan 03 17:57:45 <Lensman> AKA "A few fries short of a Happy Meal".

Jan 03 17:57:52 <rimworlder> ronn - yes, I enjoy the irony

Jan 03 17:57:55 <Lensman> "A few bats short of a belfry."

Jan 03 17:58:11 <rimworlder> actually, being pushed into the sea is too good for them - but I didn't say that, lol

Jan 03 17:58:11 <Jim> Lensman: that is an SG-1 reference

Jan 03 17:58:12 <ronn> I suppose a "useful idiot" is preferable to a "useless idiot"?

Jan 03 17:58:15 <Lensman> "The elevator does not go all the way to the top floor".

Jan 03 17:58:48 <rimworlder> lights on, no one home

Jan 03 17:58:54 <Lensman> Which is an SG-1 reference?

Jan 03 17:58:59 <rimworlder> so, what were you saying about teeth?

Jan 03 17:59:09 <Lensman> AAAAARGH!

Jan 03 17:59:10 <Hippy> LOL!!!

Jan 03 18:00:02 <Dan> Israelis have teeth.

Jan 03 18:00:07 <ronn> “Lensman> "The elevator does not go all the way to the top floor".” . . .“No, I get off on lingerie.”

Jan 03 18:00:14 <SeanS> oh not again ;)

Jan 03 18:00:20 <Jim> Lensman: "A few fries short of a Happy Meal" is a quote from the SG-1 episode Window of Opprotunity

Jan 03 18:00:25 <Lensman> ROTFL @Ronn

Jan 03 18:00:26 <rimworlder> the plain truth is that I'm more concerned these days than in years past as the amount of anti-semitism is rising considerably

Jan 03 18:00:48 <Lensman> I'm very concerned about the nuclear program in Iran.

Jan 03 18:01:13 <Lensman> But not, I'm sure, as concerned as the Israelis are.

Jan 03 18:01:16 <Jim> rimworlder: me too; anti-semitism is on the rise in both the extreme right and the extreme left

Jan 03 18:01:26 <rimworlder> and (paranoia) I don't believe bush is going to leave office; the incursion will kick off Iranian missile attacks, which will result in Israeli air strikes....

Jan 03 18:02:16 <Fred> ack. doorbell. just got a BEAUTIFUL coffee table book on Submarines from my Amazon wish list.

Jan 03 18:02:20 <rimworlder> which will result in a declaration of martial law 'for our own safety' - he's been awful smug these past couple of months, like he knows something we don't

Jan 03 18:02:33 <Fred> and the paperwork doesn't say who sent it :\

Jan 03 18:02:46 <rimworlder> fred - history of - or modern stuff?

Jan 03 18:02:54 <Fred> history

Jan 03 18:02:58 <rimworlder> cool

Jan 03 18:03:00 <Hippy> Probably your dentist, Fred

Jan 03 18:03:04 <Fred> hah!

Jan 03 18:03:44 <Fred> I also got the license plates for the handicapped van I got mom

Jan 03 18:03:49 <Lensman> I have had some e-mail exchanges with Ed on the subject of Outsiders. I pointed out that the very end of /A Gift from Earth/ specifies, in third-person-omniscient, that the Outsiders are in "every arm of the galaxy" and that the one ship had sold the hyperdrive to hundreds of species. That throws most of Siggy's speculations into a cocked hat.

Jan 03 18:03:54 <Fred> VANIM8R

Jan 03 18:04:12 <Hippy> What does that mean?

Jan 03 18:04:22 <rimworlder> lens - you're worrying that thing to death aren't you?

Jan 03 18:04:23 <Jim> Fred, you can take your Mom's van to work and park in the handicapped parking space.

Jan 03 18:04:25 <Fred> well, my plate on my care is:

Jan 03 18:04:29 <Fred> ANIM8R

Jan 03 18:04:30 <Hippy> Sorry, just saw the 8

Jan 03 18:04:44 <rimworlder> fred - you do animation?

Jan 03 18:04:49 <Fred> yes

Jan 03 18:04:53 <Fred>

Jan 03 18:04:56 <Hippy> I thought you were going for 'Mater' as in 'mother'

Jan 03 18:04:58 <rimworlder> for? if I may ask

Jan 03 18:04:58 <Lensman> I was very surprised at Ed's reaction: "That story is 40 years old." Yah, and every bit of the KS series is as canonical as every other bit. I'm sure Larry isn't throwing anything out of the canon just because it was written 40 or 50 years ago.

Jan 03 18:05:23 <rimworlder> omg - it IS 40 years old, isn;t it?

Jan 03 18:05:33 <ronn> Again, I must admit it was not original with me. I delivered the opening line ("Your elevator does not go all the way to the top") and another writer I had known and worked with for years made the reply . . . while we were in the lunch line at the Missionary Training Center. Immediately both of us thought of writing a script for "Moonlighting" around it, but shortly after that the show was...

Jan 03 18:05:35 <ronn> ...canceled . . .

Jan 03 18:05:37 <Lensman> Rim: You object to my discussing canonical continuity?

Jan 03 18:05:43 <Fred> I'm not sure if anybody will get VANIM8R on it's own, but I thought that side by side, ANIM8R and VANIM8R would be kinds of fun :)

Jan 03 18:05:45 <SeanS> every arm of the galaxy would be 2 ships right?

Jan 03 18:05:57 <Fred> touché sean

Jan 03 18:06:08 <rimworlder> lens - not at all

Jan 03 18:06:25 <Hippy> Lens: if I may say, that's one of the things that bugs me about Ed's stuff with Larry. He ignores the canon where it's inconvenient, as if KS had suddenly become his to do with as he chooses

Jan 03 18:06:31 <rimworlder> I'd be the same way if someone tried to change the way the manschenn drive worked

Jan 03 18:06:41 <Hippy> Like that Kevin J Anderson 'takeover bid' spoof of whenever it was

Jan 03 18:06:42 <Lensman> Sean: At the time that story was published, there were considered to be 4 arms of the galaxy, not counting partial arms.

Jan 03 18:07:03 <SeanS> ok, 4 ships can cover it

Jan 03 18:07:20 <rimworlder> hippy - but he is doing it with 'approval'...

Jan 03 18:07:21 <ronn> Which makes one wonder where the galaxy's armpits are located . . .

Jan 03 18:07:23 <Lensman> Hippy: I do not agree. I think that considering KS was not started as a coherent series, its continuity is quite good.

Jan 03 18:07:37 <rimworlder> does the galaxy's armpits have teeth?

Jan 03 18:07:54 <Lensman> Hippy: OOPS! Sorry

Jan 03 18:08:01 <Fred> does the galaxy have heads on the ends of it's arms?

Jan 03 18:08:03 <Hippy> Rim: well, yes, but that only excuses it, it doesn't make it better

Jan 03 18:08:16 <Lensman> Hippy: Yes, you're right. It's Larry's canon, not Ed's.

Jan 03 18:08:24 <rimworlder> geez - I haven't laughed this much in a month!

Jan 03 18:08:43 <ronn> rim: since the last niven chat?

Jan 03 18:08:46 * Tanada (~Tanada@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 18:08:59 <Jim> tanada!

Jan 03 18:09:00 <Hippy> G'day, Tanada

Jan 03 18:09:09 <Lensman> Welcome, Tanada.

Jan 03 18:09:11 <Tanada> Greetings and Salutations

Jan 03 18:09:15 <rimworlder> ronn - good guess, but no. I was reading an eric frank russel story (again) - that guy makes me laugh every time

Jan 03 18:09:17 <Tanada> and Happy 2009

Jan 03 18:09:20 <rimworlder> hi!

Jan 03 18:09:31 <Lensman> Thank you Tan, and Happy New Year to you!

Jan 03 18:09:37 <ronn> Hello and HNY to you, too!

Jan 03 18:10:12 <Hippy> Rim: Which EFR story?

Jan 03 18:10:25 <Tanada> I'm ready to move tothe Map of Earth in the Great Ocean

Jan 03 18:10:53 <SeanS> with superior technology to back you and carve out an empire?

Jan 03 18:10:54 <Hippy> Yes, it does seem to be a nice place

Jan 03 18:11:26 <Tanada> Heck I don't care, at least if the Protectors do mein they would have a rational reson for it.

Jan 03 18:11:31 <Hippy> Sean, yes! I shall have my Rhodesia again!!!

Jan 03 18:11:58 <rimworlder> Hippy - one of the Jay Score tales - forget the title right now - I'm older than ringworld

Jan 03 18:12:02 <Lensman> But even if Outsiders only had a single ship in each of the four galactic arms, that still means they are widespread, much moreso than the end of JOW implies.

Jan 03 18:12:37 <Hippy> Not familiar with those - I loved 'Or All The Seas With Oysters', though

Jan 03 18:12:38 <Tanada> I havn't laid hands on Juggler yet, is it a good read?

Jan 03 18:12:56 <Lensman> Tan: Well you'll have to deal with those pesky Kzinti. ...or not, if you're moving in OUR era instead of the Ringworld era.

Jan 03 18:13:26 <rimworlder> hippy - jay score is a robot member of a spaceship crew that has martians as engineers, a human - mixed crew - and they always run into silly trouble exploring the galaxy

Jan 03 18:13:35 <Tanada> hey in this time period the City Builder are acendant, or did the Fall Of Cities already take place?

Jan 03 18:13:56 <Lensman> Fall of Cities was 1733, sorry.

Jan 03 18:14:04 <Hippy> I shall have to hunt those out, Rim

Jan 03 18:14:18 <rimworlder> lens - yes, but you could spin the ringworld backwards really, really fast...

Jan 03 18:14:20 <Tanada> darn, sounds like i need one of Svetz time machine equiped spacecraft

Jan 03 18:14:24 <Lensman> Maybe you can get Dr. Who to take you back in time and to the Ringworld.

Jan 03 18:14:38 <rimworlder> hippy - men, monsters, machines is the collection - or best of e f russel

Jan 03 18:14:52 <Lensman> Rim: I think you've watched "Superman-- The Movie" too many times.

Jan 03 18:14:54 <Tanada> Hey the spacecraft from Rainbow Mars was what I had in mind

Jan 03 18:15:18 <Hippy> Much obliged. I'll add that to my next Amazon or ABEBooks order

Jan 03 18:16:16 <Lensman> And to plug my own work, a timeline for the Ringworld can be found at...

Jan 03 18:16:17 <rimworlder> fred - just checked out the site - I've seen that Nautilus animation somewhere... very cool.

Jan 03 18:16:21 <Lensman>

Jan 03 18:16:40 <rimworlder> PSA: and everyone should visit and put tips in the tip jar

Jan 03 18:16:49 <Lensman> Ah, anyone can tell by looking at that /Nautilus/ it's three feet too narrow.

Jan 03 18:17:18 <Tanada> I dropped by today because I got nominated for Best Avatar 2008 thanks to our discusion of the Map of Earth and Dymaxion projections

Jan 03 18:17:27 <Lensman> ...oh, that was three inches, wasn't it?

Jan 03 18:17:36 * LouisWu (~LouisWu@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 18:17:59 <Tanada> Greetings and Salutations Louis!

Jan 03 18:18:00 <ronn> three inches, three feet . . . what's the difference?

Jan 03 18:18:01 <rimworlder> congrats Tanada

Jan 03 18:18:20 <Lensman> I don't think anyone got my joke :(

Jan 03 18:18:25 <LouisWu> Tanada: Thanks, and same to you :)

Jan 03 18:18:37 <Tanada> three minutes without air, three days without water, three weeks without food all adds up the same

Jan 03 18:18:40 <ronn> I did :-P

Jan 03 18:18:52 <Hippy> Well, I can scan the log later and get it then, Lens

Jan 03 18:18:56 <rimworlder> lens - I'm enjoying the idea of mashing 'Man of Steel...' up with Ringworld

Jan 03 18:19:18 <Lensman> Fred was complaining because his company did a CGI model of the presidential limo that JFK was assassinated in, and he said some conspiracy theorists were complaining it's three inches too narrow. Fred... did not agree, to say the least.

Jan 03 18:19:27 <Hippy> On a non-dental note, is anyone likely to be at Montreal for the Con this year?

Jan 03 18:19:54 <Tanada> not I, got divorced and am straining to keep up with bills

Jan 03 18:19:55 <rimworlder> hippy - hoping too - drive up if I can afford the entry at the last minute - not in the budget right now

Jan 03 18:20:07 * NickE has quit ()

Jan 03 18:20:11 <Lensman> Sorry to hear that, Tanada.

Jan 03 18:20:41 <Tanada> chit happens, but thans Lens. It was a real shock to my system am just now getting used to it

Jan 03 18:20:52 <Hippy> Exchange rates have conspired against me, Rim, but I'm going to look into discounted flights in February, so I was curious about who might be attending

Jan 03 18:21:09 <Jim> Will the WORLDCON be in Toronto?

Jan 03 18:21:22 <Tanada> Whats the date for the Con? Maybe I will win the Lotto :)

Jan 03 18:21:52 <Lensman> WorldCon is usually Labor Day weekend, altho sometimes a week or two earlier.

Jan 03 18:22:04 <rimworlder> hippy - if I do I'll be 'blogging live from the con'

Jan 03 18:22:13 <Lensman> Late August or early September.

Jan 03 18:22:16 <rimworlder> so will be announcing it beforehand if it is going to happen

Jan 03 18:22:20 <ronn> I'm in line ahead of you to win it without wasting money on tickets.

Jan 03 18:22:44 <Tanada> lol ronn

Jan 03 18:22:46 <Hippy> I'll keep an eye out, Rim (which I can literally do)

Jan 03 18:22:56 <rimworlder> omg

Jan 03 18:22:58 <SeanS> i keep asking for the winning ticket but those dang people behind the counter keep missing the winning ticket button

Jan 03 18:23:03 <ronn> Hippy: ewwww.

Jan 03 18:23:11 <Lensman> Ronn LOL yah, let us know how you manage to accomplish that, okay?

Jan 03 18:23:23 <Tanada> Seans almost as bad as searching for the ANY key on my puter

Jan 03 18:23:24 <Hippy> Oops. Sorry. Back to Fred's teeth. . .

Jan 03 18:23:53 <ronn> Don't have any money to put into it, so it would have to be that way.

Jan 03 18:23:55 <rimworlder> - montreal

Jan 03 18:24:32 <rimworlder> I keep getting upset when the card reader asks me "Is $##.## ok?" NO. I want to pay nothing!

Jan 03 18:24:48 <SeanS> heh

Jan 03 18:24:53 <Hippy> LOL!

Jan 03 18:25:20 <Tanada> thats a reaction I have at work when the boss say Want to do X today? Nope I wanna sit here in the nice warm shop and do nutthin

Jan 03 18:25:31 <rimworlder> reminds me of the cadillac scene from Tin Men. "So, Mr, Bubowski, how much would you like to pay for the car?" "How much? Nothing. I'd like to pay nothing"

Jan 03 18:26:32 <rimworlder> anyone going to Boskone in Feb?

Jan 03 18:26:53 <Tanada> Imagine you were a City Builder during their cultural ascendancy, or even a Machine People person between RE and RT

Jan 03 18:26:57 <Fred> rim, do you have the DVD of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (1954)?

Jan 03 18:27:00 <Hippy> Nope. A bit far for me

Jan 03 18:27:12 <Hippy> But I'm going to WorldCon in 2010!

Jan 03 18:27:14 <Lensman> Lensman *ought* to go to Boskone with DeLamenters blazing, but unfortunately no.

Jan 03 18:27:19 <rimworlder> fred - no, I have a file on my computer of it

Jan 03 18:27:21 <ronn> I had an earlier cat who had an eye hanging out after the neighbor backed over him -- the second time he let himself get backed over in a driveway, which was when I took him and made him an inside cat (after he got back from another five weeks at the vet) and had him for another five years. He could apparently see some light in that eye at first, but later it seemed to pretty much quit...

Jan 03 18:27:22 <ronn> ...working at all . . .

Jan 03 18:27:26 <Tanada> With all that population how fast will your technology advance? Assuming geniuses are a percentage per capita.

Jan 03 18:27:35 <Fred> inches, lens, inches too narrow :) good reference!

Jan 03 18:28:02 <Fred> doh - reading backchat

Jan 03 18:28:03 <Lensman> Fred: I corrected myself!

Jan 03 18:28:27 <Lensman> Fred: Yah I figured you were AFK as I didn't get a rise out of you. :D

Jan 03 18:29:02 <rimworlder> hey, maybe a dumb question, but where can I find out who the people are behind the names here?

Jan 03 18:29:15 <Tanada> Just ask lol

Jan 03 18:29:20 <ronn> Presumably you could ask them?

Jan 03 18:29:25 <Fred> rim, you have a file of the DVD?

Jan 03 18:29:31 <Dan> Too simple.

Jan 03 18:29:39 * Dan grins.

Jan 03 18:29:40 <rimworlder> ronn - didn't want to be that pushy - but ok - who the hell are you people?

Jan 03 18:29:58 <SeanS> you can do a /whois nickname and that will tell you if they entered it into their client

Jan 03 18:30:03 <rimworlder> fred - probably not from the dvd - its the same one that's up on

Jan 03 18:30:09 <Lensman> Rim: I try to keep a "scorecard", but I do have to actually ask people.

Jan 03 18:30:18 <rimworlder> thanks sean

Jan 03 18:30:22 <Tanada> Heck I've been Tanada since the 1980's I have to read the lable to see who else i am

Jan 03 18:30:49 <Jim> Rimworlder: I'm Jim the crazy fundy conservative libertarian from the e-mail list.

Jan 03 18:30:51 <SeanS> I think it is quite obvious who i am ;)

Jan 03 18:30:52 <Lensman> I don't have Tanada on my scorecard. May I ask who you are?

Jan 03 18:31:06 <Tanada> Allen W. McDonnell

Jan 03 18:31:25 <Jim> supper time

Jan 03 18:31:35 <Lensman> Rim: I think you know I'm David Sooby, but as there are at least 3 Davids on the LarryNiven-l list I just go by Lensman.

Jan 03 18:31:35 <rimworlder> so mr snarky pants ronn - you gonna answer? lol

Jan 03 18:31:36 <Fred> entering /whois nickname (where I replace nickname with tanada) doesn't do anything here

Jan 03 18:31:37 <Hippy> I'm, um, it's too early on Sunday to tell

Jan 03 18:32:09 <Tanada> 6:30 PM Saturday in my time zone

Jan 03 18:32:15 <SeanS> thats because he is using the java applet where you cant enter that info

Jan 03 18:32:20 <ronn> Jim: Another TEFL reference? (Tho in that case it should be "Supper dime!")

Jan 03 18:32:21 <rimworlder> rimworlder is steve davidson

Jan 03 18:32:30 <Lensman> Where do you hail from, Tanada?

Jan 03 18:32:39 <Tanada> I really miss HarryRedd

Jan 03 18:32:40 <Fred> ah. /whois is IRC?

Jan 03 18:32:52 <Hippy> Yeah, me too

Jan 03 18:32:55 <Dan> I'm Dan Hollifield, Senior Editor and Publisher of Aphelion Webzine - since 1997, anyway. Before that I was just some geek with a Radio Shack CoCoIII computer and a yen to write SF.

Jan 03 18:32:58 <Tanada> Michigan, USA

Jan 03 18:33:11 <Lensman> IRC is the name of the software that some of us use to access this chat room.

Jan 03 18:33:19 <rimworlder> pleased to meet you Dan - nice work over there

Jan 03 18:33:26 <ronn> rim: I use the same name on the e-mail list, too . . .

Jan 03 18:33:28 <Fred> I just finally got the van I was gonna take HarryRed around in a couple months ago. Too late. :(

Jan 03 18:33:30 <SeanS> irc is the protocol... there are many different clients

Jan 03 18:33:35 <Tanada> hey I had a coco I in 1984 and a coco II in 1988

Jan 03 18:33:48 <Hippy> Tanada - Michigan? So you're on Atlantic Time?

Jan 03 18:34:06 * Hippy now worried he's stuffed up the time zons

Jan 03 18:34:14 <Dan> Thanks, Rim.

Jan 03 18:34:14 <Tanada> Eastern time zone yes

Jan 03 18:34:21 <Hippy> Phew!

Jan 03 18:34:22 <ronn> I dunno. Who IS irc?

Jan 03 18:34:31 <Tanada> Internet Relay Chat

Jan 03 18:34:41 <Tanada> lol

Jan 03 18:34:55 <Hippy> I'm using IRC

Jan 03 18:35:00 <ronn> I think that joke has been run into the ground . . .

Jan 03 18:35:07 <SeanS> i feel your pain, fred... frank and I were close

Jan 03 18:35:31 <Tanada> as they say at Baen's forums, beat that dead horse, maybe he will get up and run a boit more after all

Jan 03 18:35:43 <Fred> Never met him face to face, but he had just moved near me, and I was gonna help him go places in his power chair.

Jan 03 18:35:59 <rimworlder> I just took a pic of my first work computer - ibm 8086, dual floppy and 40 meg HD...

Jan 03 18:36:03 <Hippy> And did the man never sleep? Whenever I was online, I'd get a message from him. Sometimes' it'd be 4AM in Phoenix

Jan 03 18:36:06 * Larry (~Larry@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 18:36:11 <SeanS> i know... i never met him face to face either but he peggy and i talked on the phone all the time

Jan 03 18:36:14 <Tanada> Frank was a champ, he was one of the few who encouraged me to keep writing

Jan 03 18:36:16 <rimworlder> hi larry

Jan 03 18:36:19 <Fred> got a van for mom with all kinds of constraints for carrying different vehicles

Jan 03 18:36:21 <SeanS> howdy Larry

Jan 03 18:36:24 <Fred> Mr. Niven!

Jan 03 18:36:25 <Dan> Hiya, Larry.

Jan 03 18:36:25 <Tanada> Happy New Year Larry

Jan 03 18:36:28 <Fred> Welcome

Jan 03 18:36:35 <Hippy> G'day, Larry

Jan 03 18:36:37 <Lensman> Hi Larry!

Jan 03 18:36:38 <Dan> You missed Ed by half an hour or so.

Jan 03 18:36:42 <ronn> rim: Young whipper-snapper!

Jan 03 18:36:51 <ronn> Hi, Larry!

Jan 03 18:37:11 <Larry> Hi and Happy New Year to all. Sorry I'm late. I forgot it was that day.

Jan 03 18:37:27 <rimworlder> and you as well Allen.

Jan 03 18:37:52 <Fred> We had a long discussion on who has teeth in Known Space

Jan 03 18:37:56 <Larry> Frank Gasperik was a long time friend. He worked his way into several novels, and will again, I expect.

Jan 03 18:38:07 <SeanS> I would love to see that

Jan 03 18:38:29 <Larry> Okay, who has teeth in Known Space? What kind of teeth?

Jan 03 18:38:29 <ronn> Larry: You were using the calendar on your Zune, right ? :-P

Jan 03 18:38:41 <Hippy> Yeah, it would be a good tribute to him. Like the one in 'Footfall'

Jan 03 18:38:45 <Lensman> I think Ed said you've turned in the manuscript for /Destroyer of Worlds/.

Jan 03 18:38:45 <rimworlder> ronn - said it was the first 'work' computer; had an osborne 1 at home

Jan 03 18:38:49 <Tanada> For all those reasons this season brings those we've lost o mind. Cheers Harry Redd, keep a spot open in Valhalah for us!

Jan 03 18:38:55 <Fred> pretty much all the sentient non protectors we decided

Jan 03 18:39:00 <Dan> I'm just glad Frank got to read the section of one of my stories where I included him as a character.

Jan 03 18:39:25 <Lensman> Outsiders do not have teeth.

Jan 03 18:39:32 <Fred> although nobody mentioned outsiders

Jan 03 18:39:34 <Fred> ack

Jan 03 18:39:42 <Fred> beat me :)

Jan 03 18:39:54 <Lensman> :P~~~

Jan 03 18:39:54 <ronn> rim: unless it was a mainframe (because nothing else existed at the time) you are still a rank newbie :-P:-P:-P

Jan 03 18:39:55 <Hippy> Beat me to it, Lens

Jan 03 18:39:57 <Tanada> Bandersnatchi have no teeth that I am aware of

Jan 03 18:40:05 <rimworlder> gives new meaning to the phrase "Dentist to the Stars"

Jan 03 18:40:12 <Lensman> I think Tanada is correct.

Jan 03 18:40:23 <Fred> okay, okay, I was trying not to repeat the list

Jan 03 18:40:25 <rimworlder> ronn - do we need to discuss programming via punch card or tape?

Jan 03 18:40:35 <Fred> Lens would have bitten my head off

Jan 03 18:40:44 <Dan> :)

Jan 03 18:40:45 <Fred> teeth or no teeth

Jan 03 18:40:53 <Tanada> Punch cards were fun when I was in college, for about a week, then they were just a pain ITA

Jan 03 18:40:57 * SeanS gives voice to Larry

Jan 03 18:40:59 <rimworlder> need teeth to pull them into the reader

Jan 03 18:41:11 <Fred> mode plus v?

Jan 03 18:41:21 <SeanS> voice.. puts him at the top of the list

Jan 03 18:41:24 <Hippy> That's one on me, Sean.

Jan 03 18:41:34 <Lensman> Fred: No, I am now resigned to being inundated with teeth here. It seemed that Ed was the one it really bothered.

Jan 03 18:41:37 <Larry> Ed speaks truth: we did turn in "Destroyer of Worlds".

Jan 03 18:41:42 <Hippy> Handy

Jan 03 18:42:12 <Tanada> hang on, don't Sesile Grogs lose their teeth?

Jan 03 18:42:18 <SeanS> also if you ever need to moderate a channel because someone is causing trouble, only ops and those with voice can speak

Jan 03 18:42:22 <Lensman> Altho Bandersnatchi are said to be able to eat anything, so maybe they have something that functions like teeth.

Jan 03 18:42:37 <ronn> A week? try years . . .

Jan 03 18:42:56 <Lensman> Could be like birds have rocks in their gizzard to grind up food.

Jan 03 18:43:06 <Tanada> Hey I'm only 41, it was for a class, not a career lol

Jan 03 18:43:19 <Fred> bandersnatchi have skeletons don't they?

Jan 03 18:43:22 <rimworlder> man - those would be big on the art d'object market - bandersnatchi gizzard stones...

Jan 03 18:43:36 <Fred> "The pool was dry. In the bottom was a single great skeleton resembling that of a bandersnatch."

Jan 03 18:43:41 <ronn> According to RW they do, Fred.

Jan 03 18:43:42 <Larry> Funny, I rarely picture whether an alien has teeth. Moties did, I think.

Jan 03 18:43:44 <rimworlder> here we go again...

Jan 03 18:43:45 <Lensman> I don't recall that sessile Grogs lose their teeth.

Jan 03 18:43:48 <Hippy> Wouldn't bandersnatchi have rasps like snails?

Jan 03 18:43:49 <Tanada> Well mostly what they swallow is swampy woody materials correct?

Jan 03 18:44:10 <Larry> Bandersnatchi have a one-piece skeleton.

Jan 03 18:44:34 <Larry> all one bone, no joints.

Jan 03 18:44:36 <Lensman> Bandersnatchi on Jinx eat yeast, so no chewing necessary. But if they can eat "anything", they must have some method of grinding up something more solid.

Jan 03 18:44:42 <Hippy> I thought bandersnatchi could eat anything organic

Jan 03 18:44:52 <Fred> so no neck bones larry?

Jan 03 18:45:01 <ronn> Didn't have to be for a career. Just had to be the only option available. (Unless you sat down at the operator's console and typed stuff in . . . )

Jan 03 18:45:03 <rimworlder> flexible - like cartilage?

Jan 03 18:45:04 <Fred> more like an internal turtle sheell?

Jan 03 18:45:10 <Hippy> Lens: they could use rocks, like some birds do

Jan 03 18:45:13 <Larry> No neck bones. That's the way I pictured them.

Jan 03 18:45:16 <Lensman> Hippy: Yah I assume the "anything" isn't meant to be taken literally.

Jan 03 18:45:32 <Lensman> Hippy: That's what I said; rocks in the gizzard.

Jan 03 18:45:34 <rimworlder> anything they can't eat, they just walk on

Jan 03 18:45:47 <Tanada> perhaps they have super efficient digestive enzymes?

Jan 03 18:45:53 <ronn> no neck bones applies to bandersnatchi?

Jan 03 18:46:04 <Larry> Yeah, like an internal turtle shell, but with lots of spaces.

Jan 03 18:46:06 <Hippy> Sorry, Lens. This is moving a little faster than I can read at the moment - but you weren't to know that

Jan 03 18:46:59 <Tanada> Mr. Niven Sir, any chance you will do a followup Svetz novel about Rainbow Venus?

Jan 03 18:47:22 <Fred>

Jan 03 18:47:37 <rimworlder> fred - is that the dalzell image?

Jan 03 18:48:16 <Lensman> No, sessile Grogs do not lose thier teeth.

Jan 03 18:48:36 <Tanada> If you freeze a Bandersnath solid and thaw it out later is it alive like other one cell animals or dead like people?

Jan 03 18:48:53 <SeanS> that would take a hell of a freezer

Jan 03 18:49:04 <Fred> The above image was produced by John C. Atkeson, and this is his attempt at a Bandersnatch. He would like to point out however, that this image is still a work in progress.

Jan 03 18:49:06 <Tanada> OK I neve wish to meet a Grog anyhow, they creep me out.

Jan 03 18:49:22 <Hippy> You could drag one to one of Jinx's ends. That should freeze it

Jan 03 18:49:26 <ronn> They'd [sessile Grogs] have to be able to consume the things they lure in, right?

Jan 03 18:49:29 <Fred> I didn't find a dalzell bandersnatch

Jan 03 18:49:38 <rimworlder> I think it would be 'fun' to play 'chicken' with grogs...

Jan 03 18:49:44 <Dan> I think it has been established that Bandersnatchi are single-celled people.

Jan 03 18:49:53 <Lensman> Fred: Tch, you didn't check the Incompleat Known Space Concordance.

Jan 03 18:50:06 <rimworlder> nice one Lens

Jan 03 18:50:12 <Hippy> Rim: I'm betting you'd swerve first

Jan 03 18:50:16 <Fred> url me babycakes

Jan 03 18:50:22 <Lensman> Yes, Bandersnatchi are definitely one-celled. But they are clearly described as having a mouth.

Jan 03 18:50:37 <Larry> I don't know how to follow Rainbow Mars. It took me more years than you'd believe to follow up on the Svetz stories.

Jan 03 18:50:38 <rimworlder> hippy - it would be more like - take one step closer, and another...

Jan 03 18:50:49 <Lensman>

Jan 03 18:51:18 <ronn> Fred: I think I recall one from the original article in _Natural History_ or _Smithsonian_ (I subscribed to both at the student rate in those days and so have the original in a box somewhere unless something has happened to it . . . )

Jan 03 18:51:21 <Hippy> ROTFLMAO!!

Jan 03 18:51:33 <Lensman> Bonnie's original is more detailed, but she doesn't want me to put up hi-res images of her stuff.

Jan 03 18:51:49 <Fred> sure

Jan 03 18:52:26 <Tanada> I really enjoyed Rainbow Mars with all its combined Martian backstories in the plot

Jan 03 18:52:26 <Fred> I gather that's a mouth at the bottom . . .

Jan 03 18:52:34 <Fred> yes, Tanada

Jan 03 18:52:45 * rimworlder has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Jan 03 18:53:00 <Hippy> What the hell causes that? Sean?

Jan 03 18:53:11 <SeanS> router glitch maybe between him and me

Jan 03 18:53:26 <SeanS> power failure at his place

Jan 03 18:53:27 <Hippy> Ah. . . I see

Jan 03 18:53:38 <ronn> "Fred> I gather that's a mouth at the bottom . . ." -- I've met some people who seem to talk from there . . .

Jan 03 18:53:44 <SeanS> some moron hit a pole somewhere

Jan 03 18:53:46 <Hippy> So it's not mIRC or the Java thing doing it?

Jan 03 18:54:00 <Dan> Different demands on the various server nodes in their path to connect to the chat server at Sean's house.

Jan 03 18:54:01 <SeanS> i have gotten it using mirc on windows here in the house

Jan 03 18:54:12 <ronn> He hit the wrong key and disconnected himself, perhaps . . . (btdt)

Jan 03 18:54:16 <SeanS> and the server is on the same lan

Jan 03 18:54:22 <Larry> Tanada, thanks for enjoying Rainbow Mars. I really had fun with it. But I couldn't do the same with, say, Venus....

Jan 03 18:54:23 <Lensman> I haven't had any problem with my mIRC connection today. Did last month!

Jan 03 18:54:40 <Tanada> I always pictured Bandersnatchi as being like a large bulldozer or a land bound sperm whale with a bellyfoot

Jan 03 18:54:43 <Hippy> The work of spirit beings or some kind of Gypsy curse?

Jan 03 18:54:44 <SeanS> there are really too many reasons to list

Jan 03 18:55:09 <Tanada> blade/mouth opens and they just creep forward consuming all

Jan 03 18:55:21 <SeanS> that is the default message for when the server pings him and he doesnt pong back

Jan 03 18:55:21 <Lensman> Larry: Yah we could tell you were having lots of fun with that! Mixing Barsoomians and Wellsian Martians and everything else together. Wheee!

Jan 03 18:55:42 <ronn> "SeanS> there are really too many reasons to list" -- When did that stop anyone like this list from trying, though?

Jan 03 18:55:54 <SeanS> ronn- hehe true

Jan 03 18:55:55 <Lensman> Land bound sperm whale, yes definitely.

Jan 03 18:56:00 <Hippy> I wish we'd seen more of Tweel's ilk, though

Jan 03 18:56:00 <Fred> the list will list what the list will list

Jan 03 18:56:02 <Tanada> ronn, never that I can recall

Jan 03 18:56:29 <Tanada> You are most welcome Larry, you do good work.

Jan 03 18:56:33 <ronn> how much list could the list list if the list could list?

Jan 03 18:56:49 <Lensman> And the bristles on the Bandersnatch's head, too. Whales do have a few whiskers IIRC on their chin.

Jan 03 18:57:05 <Tanada> I was thinking of all the versions of Venus I have read about

Jan 03 18:57:06 <Fred> how much snatch would a bander snatch if a bander could snatch snatch?

Jan 03 18:57:08 <Dan> Ronn, please stop reading my mind. It's gettin' crowded in there.

Jan 03 18:57:36 <Hippy> Fred, that is brilliant!

Jan 03 18:57:42 <Fred> :)

Jan 03 18:57:45 <ronn> great minds think alike . . .

Jan 03 18:57:47 <ronn> . . . and so do we!

Jan 03 18:57:49 <Larry> There was no concensus re Venus.

Jan 03 18:57:51 <Lensman> Lucky Starr and the Oceans of Venus... Burroughs' Venus series... most lately and very enjoyably, /The Sky People/ by S.M. Stirling.

Jan 03 18:57:54 <Tanada> Heinlen had several, Burroghs had at least one, Piper had at least two

Jan 03 18:57:55 <Fred> and ours too

Jan 03 18:57:59 <Fred> doh!

Jan 03 18:58:20 <Dan> "searing black calm..."

Jan 03 18:58:52 <Tanada> Most of them were hot and swampy giving perpetual cloud dover

Jan 03 18:59:08 <Tanada> but other than that they were all sorts of different

Jan 03 18:59:09 <Hippy> Larry: how are your eyes, if I may ask?

Jan 03 18:59:17 <Dan> Sheesh! I've got an entire section of memory devoted to Larry's writing.

Jan 03 18:59:21 <Lensman> Oh yeah, the Venusian predator from Piper's "Police Operation".

Jan 03 18:59:31 <Tanada> I lover that think

Jan 03 18:59:52 <Tanada> grr, typo mania. I love the Venusian Nighthound from Piper

Jan 03 18:59:59 * Hippy notes that the people next door are playing bluegrass. . .

Jan 03 19:00:01 <Lensman> Sure, the Known Space Venus is more memorable than any but Stirling's, at least for me.

Jan 03 19:00:11 <Lensman> But then I'm prejudiced...

Jan 03 19:00:41 <Larry> My eyes haven't changed since we last "spoke". Yesterday I hiked without glasses, and found it pleasant. My right eye was nearsighted until cataract surgery a year or two ago.

Jan 03 19:00:58 <Tanada> and IIRC A.E. Van Vogt had a teraformed version of Venus with oak trees hundreds of feet thick from absorbing all the CO2

Jan 03 19:01:04 <Hippy> That's good to hear

Jan 03 19:01:35 <Lensman> IIRC Venusians are mentioned in passing in Triplanetary and /The Spacehounds of IPC/. But no scenes set on the planet.

Jan 03 19:02:23 <Tanada> heck even Abbot and Costello went to Venus once, a planet full of beautiful women but no males

Jan 03 19:02:27 <Lensman> Tan: I don't think I've read the van Vogt story. Can you give the title?

Jan 03 19:02:39 <Tanada> uhmmm

Jan 03 19:02:48 <Tanada> if I can think of it ...

Jan 03 19:03:56 <Larry> "The World of Null-A"

Jan 03 19:04:24 <Lensman> Oh, really? Well it's been too long, I have read that.

Jan 03 19:04:47 <Lensman> Wikipedia's "Venus" article mentions several more SF stories, for anyone interested.

Jan 03 19:05:03 <Dan> I re-read all three "Null-A" books last year...

Jan 03 19:05:09 <Tanada> the world of Null A

Jan 03 19:05:16 <SeanS> dont think i have ever read them

Jan 03 19:05:24 <Hippy> Nor me

Jan 03 19:05:26 <Larry> Ladies, gentlemen and fans, I have something to attend to. I should have arrived earlier; sorry.

Jan 03 19:05:32 <Lensman> I tried to read /The Space Merchants/ but couldn't get into it.

Jan 03 19:05:38 <Tanada> well guess I didn;t need to look it up lol

Jan 03 19:05:40 <Dan> Goodnight, Larry!

Jan 03 19:05:41 <SeanS> just glad you could drop in, Larry

Jan 03 19:05:42 <Lensman> Thanks for dropping in, Larry.

Jan 03 19:05:50 <Fred> Thank you for joining us Larry!

Jan 03 19:05:52 <Tanada> night Larry

Jan 03 19:05:54 <Hippy> Good afternoon, Larry

Jan 03 19:06:00 * Larry has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Jan 03 19:06:12 <ronn> Good evening, Larry!"

Jan 03 19:06:19 <Fred> 2 L8

Jan 03 19:06:20 <SeanS> hmm, 2nd month in a row with both of them in... not bad

Jan 03 19:06:27 <Lensman> All three Null-A books? I guess you like the stories a lot more than I!

Jan 03 19:06:34 <ronn> Oh, well, that didn't go through in time . . .

Jan 03 19:06:39 <Tanada> I only ever read the first one

Jan 03 19:06:42 <Fred> They've made every chat this year

Jan 03 19:06:47 <Tanada> didn;t know it had sequals

Jan 03 19:06:48 <Lensman> LOL

Jan 03 19:07:03 <SeanS> have they.? i actually havent been in for most

Jan 03 19:07:05 <Hippy> Well done, Fred

Jan 03 19:07:09 <Lensman> Tan: Yah, all I read was the first. Didn't interest me that much.

Jan 03 19:07:12 <Fred> :)

Jan 03 19:07:23 <Hippy> Er, Sean. . ?

Jan 03 19:07:33 <SeanS> and it has been harder to find time to go through the logs

Jan 03 19:07:38 <Hippy> It's, you know, 2009 everywhere but Kentucky

Jan 03 19:07:40 <Tanada> I loved the rational Venusian society acting independently but together to repel the invaders

Jan 03 19:07:45 <Lensman> LOL

Jan 03 19:08:14 <SeanS> ah

Jan 03 19:08:20 <Tanada> everyone knew what had to be done so they acted on that knowledge, no discussion nessecery

Jan 03 19:08:26 <Dan> I wouldn't say that, Lens. I just re-read all my good paperbacks every couple of years. All of Larry's stuff that I own, all my Discworld books, Fred Saberhagen, Keith Laumer, etc.

Jan 03 19:08:48 <ronn> Most of us find it less painful to go AROUND logs . . .

Jan 03 19:09:07 <Tanada> Some authors, like Larry, Fred Pohl, Poul anderson, Heinlen I can read over and over

Jan 03 19:09:11 <Lensman> I definitely do *not* remember /World of Null-A/ then, if it had a whole world full of those with mental powers. I think I'll wait for the Reader's Digest version before I re-read that book. :)

Jan 03 19:09:19 <Tanada> other only get one shot at my memory

Jan 03 19:09:59 <ronn> Either you don't have a lot of good ones or you don't have time to read anything new . . .

Jan 03 19:10:05 <Dan> Same here. I have about 4k paperbacks, out of those I think that there's only about 50 clunkers that I'll never give another read through.

Jan 03 19:10:06 <Lensman> The only thing I've read by van Vogt that I thought was worth reading twice was /Space Beagle/.

Jan 03 19:10:30 <Tanada> I read Space Beagle several times

Jan 03 19:10:37 <Tanada> liked everything but the ending

Jan 03 19:10:49 <Lensman> Yah the ending is a let down.

Jan 03 19:10:59 <Lensman> Anticlimactic.

Jan 03 19:11:22 <ronn> afk

Jan 03 19:11:58 <Lensman> But as it's actually a fixup of several short stories, I can enjoy all the stories in the book except the last.

Jan 03 19:12:37 <Tanada> yeah, that was my first exposure to the concept of Van Neuman machines that self replicate to complete their task

Jan 03 19:13:01 <Tanada> then there are the Berserkers from Saberhagen

Jan 03 19:13:04 <Lensman> I'd rather read a short story collection with one klunker than a novel with an ending that lets the reader down. :)

Jan 03 19:13:16 <SeanS> always liked the berserkers

Jan 03 19:13:19 <Tanada> Well I have to agree with you there Lens

Jan 03 19:13:47 <Lensman> I never could get into the Berserker stories, altho I do like Larry's "A Teardrop Falls".

Jan 03 19:13:48 <Tanada> Anyone like Leinsters Planet Explorer/Med Ship/Pirates series?

Jan 03 19:13:58 <SeanS> havent read it

Jan 03 19:14:10 <Lensman> Dunno. Never cared much for Leinster.

Jan 03 19:14:21 <Dan> I read Med Ship back when I was in college.

Jan 03 19:14:24 <Tanada> I liked Teardrop, it was a masterfull integration

Jan 03 19:14:49 <Tanada> Med Ship stories were one part of that Leinster universe

Jan 03 19:15:09 * rimworlder (~rimworlder@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 19:15:14 <SeanS> wb

Jan 03 19:15:19 <Dan> RE Rimworlder.

Jan 03 19:15:27 <Tanada> Planet Explorer was about a guy whoe=se job was to travle to new worlds as they were founding colonies to make sure everythng was kosher

Jan 03 19:15:32 <Jim> rimworlder!

Jan 03 19:15:34 <Tanada> wb rim

Jan 03 19:15:44 <rimworlder> stupid computer!

Jan 03 19:15:53 <rimworlder> actually, it was probably my magic jack

Jan 03 19:15:55 <Hippy> G'day Rim

Jan 03 19:16:00 <SeanS> what happened, hippy wants to know

Jan 03 19:16:03 <Lensman> "Med Ship" reminds me of the Sector General stories, which I dearly love, altho White did finally run out of steam after several book-length collections.

Jan 03 19:16:16 <Hippy> You shoould've seen the list of reasons for why you were gone

Jan 03 19:16:24 <rimworlder> like?

Jan 03 19:16:31 <SeanS> i read one sector general on dan's recomendation... not bad

Jan 03 19:16:42 <rimworlder> and what's the "re rimworlder' comment about? remember - I'm paranoid

Jan 03 19:16:46 <Tanada> Funny, I always associated Sector General with Space Beagel, the styles seem similer to me

Jan 03 19:16:54 <SeanS> same as wb.. welcome back

Jan 03 19:16:57 <Hippy> Voodoo curse, server failure, DHS, eccentric millionaires, the 'I Love You' virus

Jan 03 19:17:00 <rimworlder> ahh

Jan 03 19:17:21 <Lensman> Rim, we were NOT plotting to break into your house and replace all your stuff with exact duplicates. Honest.

Jan 03 19:17:32 <rimworlder> hey - DHS ain;t far off the mark - disney security doesn't like me cause I wouldn't let them fingerbone scan me

Jan 03 19:17:32 <Dan> RE is chat shorthand for "Hello again" or "Re-Hi there."

Jan 03 19:17:38 <Tanada> Rim your not Larry in disguise are you?

Jan 03 19:17:48 <rimworlder> could be...

Jan 03 19:17:55 <rimworlder> but style should tell you - not

Jan 03 19:18:11 <Tanada> yeah, you type faster lol

Jan 03 19:18:16 <rimworlder> lens - please do but change one thing so IO know

Jan 03 19:18:36 <SeanS> so what happened that dropped you out, rim?

Jan 03 19:19:10 <Tanada> so who is expecting Yellowstone to erupt any moment?

Jan 03 19:19:10 <rimworlder> not sure - everything hung. I have magic jack for phone, and two calls came in right on top of each other, but the hanging didn;t occur till a few minutes later...

Jan 03 19:19:13 <Dan> Rim, look for a blue monkey-wrench in your fridge. Thay'll be our calling card.

Jan 03 19:19:20 <Lensman> NSA re-routed his packets to their server. Oops, I wasn't supposed to say that.

Jan 03 19:19:26 <rimworlder> lol - I'm waiting for the gian tsunami

Jan 03 19:19:40 <rimworlder> dan - lol! ok

Jan 03 19:19:54 <Tanada> when the Cascadia trench goes you will get it

Jan 03 19:20:15 <Tanada> did you hear about the Maine Tsunami in November?

Jan 03 19:20:22 <Fred> speaking of Jellystone -- I got "Hey There It's Yogi Bear" for xmas :)

Jan 03 19:20:22 <Lensman> But only if it's a left-handed blue monkey wrench.

Jan 03 19:20:36 <rimworlder> I met a very smart person years ago who said 'everything can kill you, so if you want to stay sane - pick one thing to worry about'

Jan 03 19:20:45 <Lensman> Is that a DVD, Fred?

Jan 03 19:20:55 <Fred> yeah, movie from 1964

Jan 03 19:21:06 <Hippy> That doesn't sound right. How many blue monkesy are there?

Jan 03 19:21:08 <rimworlder> did that movie have teeth in it?

Jan 03 19:21:25 <Lensman> Monkey wrenches have teeth...

Jan 03 19:21:29 <Fred> I recall seeing it in a drive in in a station wagon with a bunch of other little kids

Jan 03 19:21:50 <Tanada> and they bite too

Jan 03 19:22:01 <Lensman> ...but, generally speaking, refrigerators don't.

Jan 03 19:22:15 <rimworlder> one did in Ghostbusters...

Jan 03 19:22:20 <Tanada> depends on if the Sheeps Head is in there or not Lens

Jan 03 19:22:26 <Lensman> LOL!

Jan 03 19:22:51 <rimworlder> so larry left when I went kablooey?

Jan 03 19:22:53 <Dan> My granny's fridge did... She left her dentures in there at night during the Summer months.

Jan 03 19:23:10 <SeanS> yep

Jan 03 19:23:24 <rimworlder> and you're all thinking it's my fault?

Jan 03 19:23:27 <Lensman> "Generally you don't see that kind of behavior in a major appliance." One of my favorite movie lines!

Jan 03 19:23:53 <Dan> Nah, he said "Rimworlder left? I'm outta here!"

Jan 03 19:23:54 <rimworlder> lens - lots of fun in that one - I love the history lesson that we get from the keymaster

Jan 03 19:24:12 <Hippy> He was crying, too

Jan 03 19:24:13 <rimworlder> he used to do that at cons I went to...

Jan 03 19:24:31 <Tanada> you mean you went in and he zoomed out Rim?

Jan 03 19:24:33 <rimworlder> right before I got to a room - he'd left

Jan 03 19:24:55 <Hippy> So no-one's ever seen you together?

Jan 03 19:24:57 <rimworlder> is larry here? he left. is larry here...

Jan 03 19:25:08 <Lensman> Rim: History lesson? Pls refresh my memory.

Jan 03 19:25:09 <Hippy> Interesting. .

Jan 03 19:25:14 <rimworlder> at one con - either iggie or suncon, we spoke for a wehile

Jan 03 19:25:30 <Lensman> Rim: So you're cursed, then.

Jan 03 19:25:48 <rimworlder> oh yes! finagle uses me as a demonstration model

Jan 03 19:26:15 <Fred> speaking of hot chicks that like to dress up as princess leia

Jan 03 19:26:16 <Fred>

Jan 03 19:26:31 <Tanada> brb

Jan 03 19:27:16 <rimworlder> I've spent an entire life living at the far end of the probability curve - the end opposite Teela's

Jan 03 19:27:38 <Fred> your toast always lands buttered side down

Jan 03 19:27:48 <Hippy> That is impressive, Fred. Do you surf for this stuff all day?

Jan 03 19:27:50 <Lensman> I got incredibly lucky at Denvention II in 1980. I was eating lunch at a food court kind of place, all by myself, and I looked up and there was Larry looking around for a place to sit and eat *his* lunch. So naturally I invited him to join me. Got to bend his ear for several minutes!

Jan 03 19:27:57 <Fred> except, that's good for your arteries

Jan 03 19:28:16 <Fred> can't take credit for the URL, friend just sent it to me

Jan 03 19:28:23 <rimworlder> fred - more like: the LAST piece of toast gets caught in the toaster and gets slighlty burnt. Then it falls to the floor, butter down. Then, in trying to retrieve it, I step on it and knock my coffee mug over, then...

Jan 03 19:28:54 <Lensman> Yah, my mailbox has been hit with several pictures of a room full of Leias, some indeed eye candy!

Jan 03 19:28:57 <Hippy> Well, my Sunday afternoon just got a lot brighter :)

Jan 03 19:29:30 <rimworlder> there 's a club of some sort of leia dress ups - always the slave costume (not that I'm complaining)

Jan 03 19:29:46 <rimworlder> hippy - youre half a world away...

Jan 03 19:29:52 <rimworlder> ahead?

Jan 03 19:30:11 <Lensman> Yah that's what always gets me, it's always the cheesecake outfit from "Jedi". Never the regal princess from "Empire".

Jan 03 19:30:52 <rimworlder> lens - had the same sorta experience with Asimov, Cherryh, Spinrad and a weird set of circumstances with Haldeman

Jan 03 19:31:09 <rimworlder> and they all had teeth, btw

Jan 03 19:31:21 <Hippy> "Half-pretty girls half-dressed to show it."

Jan 03 19:31:25 <Lensman> Rim: Have you tried visiting an old gypsy woman to have that curse removed?

Jan 03 19:31:47 <Hippy> Rim: ahead, yes. Ballarat, Australia

Jan 03 19:31:59 <rimworlder> lens - its not really a curse - its a trade off. Lots of little things break bad, but the major, life-threatening/changing ones break for the good

Jan 03 19:32:39 <rimworlder> hippy - I know asking if you know someone on an entire continent is kinda stupid, but (fans and alll) do you know David Kellher? or Paul Collins?

Jan 03 19:33:07 <rimworlder> lens - I'm always tripping - but never falling down, if you catch my drift

Jan 03 19:34:21 <Tanada> back

Jan 03 19:34:27 <rimworlder> wb

Jan 03 19:34:31 <Hippy> Rim: Paul Collins I've met a couple of times, many years ago (1988 or so) but not David Kelliher

Jan 03 19:34:37 <Tanada> saw an interview with Carrie Fisher last month, shes lost her mind

Jan 03 19:34:43 <Tanada> ty

Jan 03 19:35:01 <Fred> again?

Jan 03 19:35:04 <Jim> Tanada, please explain

Jan 03 19:35:09 <rimworlder> hippy - david does the chandler website; paul and I correspond fairly regularly - and Ballarat is often mentioned in Chandler's stories

Jan 03 19:35:14 <Hippy> I was surprised to find that Edwin Scribner from the list is also from Melbourne (where I used to live)

Jan 03 19:35:44 <Hippy> Certainly in 'Kelly Country'

Jan 03 19:35:46 <Tanada> She spent the whole interview promoting electroshock therapy, said she receives it frequently and its great

Jan 03 19:35:49 <rimworlder> tanada - is that the one where she said Lucas told her 'no bra', cause in space they don't have underwear?

Jan 03 19:35:55 <Hippy> But it was very important to the Gold Rush

Jan 03 19:36:05 <ronn> was trying to get some news on TV . . . mostly sports instead . . . stumbled on one of those celebrity "news" shows with a piece about a woman who continued to get implants until she had a MMM bust . . .

Jan 03 19:36:16 <rimworlder> hippy - grimes was born there or his parents lived there, forget which at the moment

Jan 03 19:36:20 <Fred> rim, you shouldn't be tripping but not falling; that's what Teela does

Jan 03 19:36:44 <Tanada> How about falling with a visible trip?

Jan 03 19:36:53 <Fred> you should look very graceful and be falling on your ass without warning constantly

Jan 03 19:36:55 <rimworlder> tanada - stole my line dammit

Jan 03 19:36:58 <Tanada> without a visible trip I meant

Jan 03 19:37:10 <Hippy> Been a while since I've read it - and the only other A B Chandler I've read is 'Giant Killer' some years ago

Jan 03 19:37:30 <rimworlder> hippy - well, visit the chandler concordance some time - lol

Jan 03 19:37:43 <rimworlder> he's fun

Jan 03 19:38:07 <Hippy> I might hunt it up, Rim

Jan 03 19:38:15 <Tanada> One of these years I will amke it to the Piper muster, hopefully I will meet Lens and two or three others if I do

Jan 03 19:38:16 <rimworlder> the tripping thing was an analogy. I've often heard people say 'you should be dead'... and I'm not, so...

Jan 03 19:38:32 <rimworlder> piper muster?

Jan 03 19:38:37 <LouisWu> an "MMM" bust, or an "MMmmmmmm..." bust ?

Jan 03 19:39:15 <Tanada> Every year they have a gathering in honor of H. Beam Piper in PA on the aniversery of his death

Jan 03 19:39:18 <Lensman> Piper muster = an annual gathering of Piper fans. Not big enuff to call it a con.

Jan 03 19:39:25 <Dan> Meet-up of H. Beam Piper fans.

Jan 03 19:39:28 <ronn> mmm, sized up from KKK, sized up from DD . . .

Jan 03 19:40:02 <Tanada> HHH is more than enough, heck I prefer women with a C cup to be honest

Jan 03 19:40:04 <LouisWu> ronn: That's not a bust, its a silicone warehouse....

Jan 03 19:40:15 <rimworlder> lens - surprised I'm just hearing about it - when and where?

Jan 03 19:40:36 <rimworlder> you don't need more than can fit in one hand...

Jan 03 19:40:54 <Tanada> Rim is that why they call you the B man?

Jan 03 19:40:58 <Tanada> <eg>

Jan 03 19:41:08 <rimworlder> piper is right up there with other greats

Jan 03 19:41:20 <ronn> Twas saline: after she developed an infection they had to drain them: over a gallon, tho I dunno if that was one or both . . .

Jan 03 19:41:31 <rimworlder> tanada - no, its why my wife doesn;'t beat me up for thinking anything differently

Jan 03 19:41:38 <Tanada> lol

Jan 03 19:42:28 <rimworlder> speaking of which - she is getting a bit jealous of the time I'm spending here. (When is the chat over? when everyone leaves, honey. oh...)

Jan 03 19:42:37 <Lensman> Hmm, odd, Google finds little or nothing about "piper muster".

Jan 03 19:42:57 <rimworlder> alternate names like calvin or fuzzy?

Jan 03 19:42:58 <Dan> Have to join the Piper List, then.

Jan 03 19:43:31 <Lensman> Sounds like you'd better ask Tanada, I never had any strong motive to attend one. I don't attend out-of-town cons anymore.

Jan 03 19:43:45 <Hippy> This breast discussion is most interesting. . .not as interesting as the teeth, but still. . .

Jan 03 19:44:01 <Dan>

Jan 03 19:44:10 <Hippy> Now consider Grass Giant women - and compare with cow udders

Jan 03 19:44:58 <ronn> udderly ridiculous

Jan 03 19:45:22 <Tanada> I prefer a woman who enjoys what I am attempting to accomplish

Jan 03 19:45:35 <rimworlder> google shows a link when searching for h. beam piper muster - but the link is bad

Jan 03 19:45:37 <Hippy> Would they develop multiple breasts, though? Well, Wu made no mention of it, so probably not

Jan 03 19:46:31 <rimworlder> BREASTS WITH TEETH! there ya go hippy

Jan 03 19:46:50 <Hippy> A great gap in my life has been filled :)

Jan 03 19:46:59 <Lensman> Big-brained babies do not get born in litters. There's only so much room in momma's womb. If momma seldom gives birth to more than two kids at once, there's no evolutionary pressure for multiple teats.

Jan 03 19:47:01 <LouisWu> Hmmmm...makes "Hey watch the teeth" even funnier

Jan 03 19:47:18 <Fred> you do realize that if we google image 'breast with teeth' we'll probably get results?

Jan 03 19:47:28 <Tanada> owwww

Jan 03 19:47:54 <Tanada> A little genetic engineering would fix that Lens

Jan 03 19:48:12 <rimworlder> top result is 'breast reduction, teeth whitening'

Jan 03 19:48:32 <Tanada> now just imagine if humans were marsupials, breast fetishes would be imnpossible

Jan 03 19:48:53 <Dan> "Dig the pouch on that chick!"

Jan 03 19:48:55 <rimworlder> man what I wouldn't give to get in her pouch

Jan 03 19:49:05 <Hippy> Calves aren't born in litters, Lens. Yet cows have four nipples

Jan 03 19:49:27 <Lensman> Sure, you can use genegineering to explain quite a bit. But the question was, would Grass Giant women develop more breasts? The answer should be "no". You'd have to stipulate a small-brained, non-sentient hominid.

Jan 03 19:49:46 <rimworlder> with a pouch

Jan 03 19:49:47 <Tanada> actually a cows udder has 6 nipples

Jan 03 19:50:06 <Tanada> two are branded off shortly after birth of the heifer

Jan 03 19:51:00 <Hippy> Yuck

Jan 03 19:51:11 <Hippy> Don't mention that in Australia, they'll stop it at once

Jan 03 19:51:12 <Tanada> but grass giants being so large physically could easily produce three or four human sized babies

Jan 03 19:51:25 <Lensman> Multiple teats on one udder <> multiple mammaries.

Jan 03 19:51:27 <Hippy> Yep

Jan 03 19:51:34 <rimworlder> hippy - yuck? what about what they do to the steers?

Jan 03 19:51:53 <Hippy> Well, yes, there's that, too

Jan 03 19:51:57 <Tanada> well tecnically if its a Steer its already been done lol

Jan 03 19:52:11 <Hippy> I don't know, burning off nipples seems horribly cruel

Jan 03 19:52:22 <Lensman> Tan: Yup.

Jan 03 19:52:24 <rimworlder> I have just been told it is time to go to bed. told, mind you, not asked

Jan 03 19:52:40 <Tanada> lol rim, divorce has some advantages

Jan 03 19:52:40 <Lensman> Bye Rim.

Jan 03 19:52:42 <Hippy> Speaking of steers. . . :)

Jan 03 19:52:46 <Tanada> have a good night anyhow

Jan 03 19:52:55 <Hippy> Okay, Rim. This has been fun

Jan 03 19:53:06 <Dan> Goodnight, rim.

Jan 03 19:53:11 <rimworlder> yeah - well, gotta finish a (bad) turtledove fantasy - never again

Jan 03 19:53:16 <rimworlder> nite and bye bye

Jan 03 19:53:26 * rimworlder has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Jan 03 19:53:38 <Jim> bye

Jan 03 19:53:44 <Tanada> of course waking up alone is the disadvantage\

Jan 03 19:53:55 <Jim> masturbation

Jan 03 19:54:07 <Hippy> Can we talk about teeth, please?

Jan 03 19:54:19 <Tanada> so anyhow, Lens you agree Grass Giant women might produce litters of 3-4?

Jan 03 19:54:20 <SeanS> hmm, bout time for people on the other side of the planet to start showing up... even tho hippy is already here

Jan 03 19:54:45 <Hippy> I suspect Euan will surface soon

Jan 03 19:54:56 <Hippy> Two in the afternoon for him

Jan 03 19:55:02 <SeanS> you are in oz, right hippy?

Jan 03 19:55:09 <Hippy> Who else from my side of Greenwich turns up?

Jan 03 19:55:16 <Hippy> Yep, Sean

Jan 03 19:55:20 <SeanS> ted from time to time

Jan 03 19:55:33 <Lensman> I don't know why cows have multiple teats on their one mammary. That suggests either frequent "adoptive" nursing, or else-- guessing here-- calves' teeth are hard enuff on mama's teats that she needs several to allow for healing in between feedings.

Jan 03 19:55:33 <Hippy> Ted? Scribner?

Jan 03 19:55:38 <SeanS> yep

Jan 03 19:55:57 <LouisWu> cows have mutltiple teats because they've been altered by man

Jan 03 19:56:00 <Hippy> I'll be damned. I wish I'd known that before now - I'd've watied around

Jan 03 19:56:17 <SeanS> i dont use a crib sheet like lens... just my more and more faulty memory

Jan 03 19:56:20 * Jim has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Jan 03 19:56:23 <Hippy> How would you alter teat numbers?

Jan 03 19:56:29 <Lensman> Tan: No, don't agree. Children will always be proportioned to adults. Look at elephant and whale babies frex.

Jan 03 19:56:29 <ronn> "Fred> you do realize that if we google image 'breast with teeth' we'll probably get results?" -- are you wondering about the females of that alien species in that animated Superman episode that featured Lobo?

Jan 03 19:56:37 * Jim (~chatzilla@ has joined #knownspace

Jan 03 19:56:44 <Hippy> Jeus, there's that error again! It'll be my turn next

Jan 03 19:56:49 <LouisWu> Hippy: By breeding for them

Jan 03 19:57:05 <Lensman> Proportion doesn't apply if it's not a big-brained mammal.

Jan 03 19:57:15 <Hippy> Well. ..I'm not buying that, LouisWu

Jan 03 19:57:33 <LouisWu> Hippy: Same goes for the volume of milk produced

Jan 03 19:57:35 <Tanada> me neither and I grew up around cattle

Jan 03 19:57:58 <Tanada> milk volume for dairy cattle has been enhanced by selective breeding yes

Jan 03 19:58:24 <Tanada> but the number of teas is the same for wild cattle and yak as it is for dairy cattle

Jan 03 19:58:30 <Hippy> Anyway, now consider the 'nipple line' for primates.

Jan 03 19:58:39 <Hippy> It runs from armpit to armpit in an arc

Jan 03 19:58:44 <Lensman> But IIRC goats have four nipples per udder, also. So I doubt the extra teats were produced by breeding.

Jan 03 19:59:04 <Hippy> So multople breasts for GG women would run left to right across their chests and under their arms

Jan 03 19:59:06 <ronn> "Tanada> me neither and I grew up around cattle" So presumably you had an answer any time anyone said "Close the door! Were you raised in a ban?"

Jan 03 19:59:19 <Hippy> But Louis Wu never noticed that

Jan 03 19:59:24 <LouisWu> Hippy: The nipple placement may have something to do with being descendents of tree dwellers...

Jan 03 19:59:26 <Lensman> Certainly, nipples have moved upwards on the chest for apes/ hominids, where mamma carries the babies.

Jan 03 19:59:31 <Tanada> close

Jan 03 20:00:05 <Fred> according to Professor Walter Hurley of the University of Illinois, we're pretty sure that the cow's remote ancestors had more than one baby2014maybe many more2014and that, like most animals, they've evolved toward fewer offspring. Fossil records show that millions of years ago, cows and pigs shared a common ancestor, an animal that looked more pig than cow. It probably had multiple offspring, like a pig, which has litters of 12 to 14, so it would have ne

Jan 03 20:00:19 <Tanada> but Lens, human babies range from 2 pounds to 14 pounds with no change in ultimate IQ or brain size

Jan 03 20:00:43 <Lensman> Tan: A two-pound baby is not normal.

Jan 03 20:00:55 <SeanS> nortons west in louisville has had a baby survive with a "birth" weight of 9 ounces

Jan 03 20:00:57 <Tanada> It is for triplets

Jan 03 20:00:59 <Lensman> Fred: Yes, thanks.

Jan 03 20:01:36 <Fred> Cloris Leachman has supernumerary nipples

Jan 03 20:01:37 <Hippy> So for GG's we could talk about 5 to around 28 pounds

Jan 03 20:01:41 <Lensman> Survive <> normal. Superpreemie babies with birthweight less than 500 grams do not develop normal brains, IIRC.

Jan 03 20:02:07 <LouisWu> Fred: That makes sense; maybe a recessive gene that bred true ?

Jan 03 20:02:10 <SeanS> the 9 ounce baby grew up with a normal iq

Jan 03 20:02:25 <SeanS> thats what nortons said anyway

Jan 03 20:02:27 <Lensman> Sean: Documentation?

Jan 03 20:02:37 <Hippy> Lens, consider a Red Herder or the Gleaners - I think 2 pounds for a baby would be too heavy for them

Jan 03 20:02:47 <SeanS> call nortons west and ask them... thats what my gf's parents were told when they were on a tour

Jan 03 20:03:09 <Lensman> As I said, size/ weight of baby will be proportional to size/ weight of adult.

Jan 03 20:03:21 <LouisWu> Fred: Cloris Leachman has a "thripple" ?? :)

Jan 03 20:03:30 <ronn> "Hippy> Anyway, now consider the 'nipple line' for primates It runs from armpit to armpit in an arc" . . . nope: "The nipples appear along the two vertical "milk lines", which start in the armpit on each side, run down through the typical nipples and end at the groin. They are classified into eight levels of completeness from a simple patch of hair to a milk-bearing breast in miniature."...

Jan 03 20:03:32 <ronn> ...(

Jan 03 20:03:34 <Tanada> 500 grams is under 1 pound

Jan 03 20:03:44 <Lensman> What Fred posted makes very much sense, that cows were bred from something considarably smaller, so have decreased the sized of the "litter" thru breeding.

Jan 03 20:03:53 <SeanS> my nephew was born at 1 pound 9 ounces... give me about 12 years and i will let you know from first hand experience

Jan 03 20:04:02 <ronn> i pound masses 454 grams

Jan 03 20:04:14 <Hippy> Ronn: I stand corrected, though awkwardly because of these nipples

Jan 03 20:04:16 <Lensman> Okay, I sit corrected.

Jan 03 20:04:43 <Lensman> Yah, 1 kg = 2.2 lbs, I know that. Wasn't thinking.

Jan 03 20:05:08 <Lensman> Anyway, that doesn't alter the fact that average weight for a human baby is considerably higher than 2 lbs.

Jan 03 20:05:28 <Tanada> lol Lens tell that to China or Japan

Jan 03 20:05:34 <Hippy> Now there must be some RW hominids who'd have a 'rabbit' birth strategy - breed fast, breed often

Jan 03 20:05:47 <Hippy> Breed many, breed often

Jan 03 20:05:51 <SeanS> i wasnt arguing that... i was just providing a bit on knowledge that i thought would be interesting

Jan 03 20:05:57 <Tanada> but your point is relatively valid, for singleton births the weight is higher than for twin/triple

Jan 03 20:05:59 <ronn> no, it doesn't - - - it's just the usual nit-picking you find on-line . . .

Jan 03 20:06:01 <Lensman> Sure, by not developing sapience.

Jan 03 20:06:06 <Jim> vampires would breed often

Jan 03 20:06:19 <LouisWu> Hippy: Following a predator/prey model, that strategy would imply they'd be hunted...

Jan 03 20:06:20 <Lensman> Vampiers, yes.

Jan 03 20:06:42 <Tanada> Rishathra doesn't count

Jan 03 20:06:53 <Lensman> Different strategies can work. Mice and rats breed *very* fast.

Jan 03 20:06:56 <Hippy> Yep, hunted. What do Night Hunters hunt?

Jan 03 20:07:02 <Tanada> and I have a hard time beleiving they live solely on blood products

Jan 03 20:07:06 <SeanS> lens, the gf wants to know how many kids you have

Jan 03 20:07:23 <Lensman> 0, thank Kdapt.

Jan 03 20:07:26 <SeanS> she is reading over my sholder

Jan 03 20:07:38 <SeanS> thats what she figured

Jan 03 20:07:47 <Hippy> Well, my regards to. . .Julie?

Jan 03 20:07:56 <SeanS> yes... good memory

Jan 03 20:08:08 <Hippy> Lucky for you I didn't say 'Susan'

Jan 03 20:08:18 <Tanada> rofl I was just thinking that

Jan 03 20:08:30 <LouisWu> Ask Julie if "Rishathra doesnt count" and I bet we know what the answer is :)

Jan 03 20:08:35 <Fred> Susan Sullivan?

Jan 03 20:08:37 <Tanada> Denise? Tina? Mary?

Jan 03 20:08:44 <Tanada> lol

Jan 03 20:08:51 <Fred> from Star Trek The Motion Picture?

Jan 03 20:08:52 <Hippy> I have actually put my foot in it that way a couple of times in real life. .

Jan 03 20:09:02 <Lensman> Sean: Well what about Jennifer and Dorothy and Mary?

Jan 03 20:09:21 <SeanS> tis ok... she is just impressed that people around the world know her name

Jan 03 20:09:34 <Fred> and breeding habits

Jan 03 20:09:37 <Hippy> And Harry and Paul and Siegfied?

Jan 03 20:09:51 <ronn> "Lensman> Sean: Well what about Jennifer and Dorothy and Mary?" Menage a quarte?

Jan 03 20:10:00 <SeanS> never dated any with those names

Jan 03 20:10:06 <Tanada> too complicated for real life lol

Jan 03 20:10:50 <LouisWu> <------- still a bit freaked out that Cloris Leachman hss "thripples"

Jan 03 20:11:10 <Tanada> so anyhow, herbavors in general have larger birth numbers than predotory animals, but not always

Jan 03 20:11:17 <Fred> as have I been, for the decades since I first saw her talk about it

Jan 03 20:11:26 <Lensman> Mean birth weight in grams in three Chinese hospitals: 3,369 3,195 and 3,171

Jan 03 20:11:35 <Fred> pounds?

Jan 03 20:11:35 <Tanada> dogs and cats and alligators all have multiple offspring per generation

Jan 03 20:11:44 <Lensman> What's this nonsense about less than two pound babies?

Jan 03 20:12:02 <Fred> um

Jan 03 20:12:03 <Tanada> 7 poundsish

Jan 03 20:12:05 <Lensman> Yes, dogs and cats have litters. They are relatively small-brained.

Jan 03 20:12:15 <Fred> alligators lay eggs

Jan 03 20:12:25 <Fred> I don't think they suckle :)

Jan 03 20:12:29 <Tanada> I specified offspring, not birth babies

Jan 03 20:12:40 <Lensman> You can get to extremes... fish lay hundreds of eggs, so do some spiders.

Jan 03 20:12:47 <Tanada> and I was talking about predator reproductive strategy

Jan 03 20:12:56 <Hippy> We could get a new RW novel out of this chat

Jan 03 20:12:58 <Fred> ah

Jan 03 20:13:05 <LouisWu> Prolificity like that is a defense mechanism, no?

Jan 03 20:13:09 <Hippy> 'Ringworld 's Tits'

Jan 03 20:13:22 <Tanada> but I jsust remebered something

Jan 03 20:13:24 <LouisWu> Hippy: Hahahaha

Jan 03 20:13:27 <Hippy> Well, perhaps a more genteel title

Jan 03 20:13:38 <Fred> Ringworld's Teats

Jan 03 20:13:47 <Hippy> Subtle, Fred

Jan 03 20:13:49 <Tanada> alligators can support many more memebrs per prey species because they are cold blooded

Jan 03 20:13:55 <ronn> "Tanks for the Mammaries"

Jan 03 20:14:10 <Hippy> Oh, God. . .

Jan 03 20:14:18 <Tanada> they only need something like 15% of the food supply of a warm blooded animal

Jan 03 20:14:21 <Lensman> Tanada: Oh well if you were not talking about humans, then of course that's different.

Jan 03 20:14:26 <Fred> Tanj for the Mammaries

Jan 03 20:14:41 <Tanada> so what about a cold blooded hominid?

Jan 03 20:14:48 <LouisWu> Fred: That's genius :)

Jan 03 20:14:56 <Fred> :)

Jan 03 20:14:58 <Lensman> The discussion started with grass giants, who are fully sapient and thus should have similar proportion of baby to adult weights as humans.

Jan 03 20:15:08 <ronn> Tan: I think I've dated some of those

Jan 03 20:15:10 <Tanada> Thats a mighty big nippleringworld

Jan 03 20:15:12 <Hippy> "In an undergarment warehouse in the middle of Resht, Sid Noodnik flicked into reality. "Trillions of hominids, " he said, "and all with multiple mams. Think of the sales."

Jan 03 20:15:22 <Lensman> How can you have a non-mammalian hominid?

Jan 03 20:15:25 <Tanada> heck I was recently divorced from one of them

Jan 03 20:15:32 <Lensman> LOL

Jan 03 20:15:36 <Tanada> I didn;t say non mamalian

Jan 03 20:15:48 <Tanada> I said cold blooded as an evolutionary change

Jan 03 20:16:03 <Fred> you can't have a cold bloded hominid by definition

Jan 03 20:16:13 <Lensman> I don't see how you can have a cold-blooded mammal.

Jan 03 20:16:17 <Tanada> like their body temperature is 50 F or ambiant

Jan 03 20:16:27 <Hippy> If you don't post this log, Sean, you'll be beaten up

Jan 03 20:16:38 <Tanada> they don;t need as much food to maintain a higher body temp

Jan 03 20:16:55 <ronn> What environment would that be an adaptation to?

Jan 03 20:16:57 <Tanada> humans have a low body temp for mamals already

Jan 03 20:17:14 <Tanada> why not even lower?

Jan 03 20:17:16 <Lensman> The only mammals which use 'ambient temperature" are mole rats, extremely primitive mammals which live underground and maintain stable body temperature because it's always the same temp in their burrows.

Jan 03 20:17:21 <LouisWu> yikes

Jan 03 20:17:28 <Fred> Rufus!

Jan 03 20:17:30 <Hippy> Don't know how they'd go on the Ringworld, but I can't see why a cold-blooded one woulnd't evolve

Jan 03 20:17:35 <ronn> Hippy> If you don't post this log, Sean, you'll be beaten up - - just be sure you mark it "NSFW" . . .

Jan 03 20:17:38 <LouisWu> "naked mole rat" isnt exactly warm blooded

Jan 03 20:17:41 <Hippy> It'd be a famine strategy

Jan 03 20:17:56 <Lensman> Hippy: For the same reason fire doesn't burn backwards.

Jan 03 20:17:57 <Tanada> yes

Jan 03 20:18:14 <ronn> "Tanada> humans have a low body temp for mamals already" - - and live longer than some of the mammals with higher body temperatures

Jan 03 20:18:20 <Fred> I miss Rufus

Jan 03 20:18:22 <Tanada> for example hibernating mammals also have a low body temp while hibernating

Jan 03 20:18:26 <Lensman> Famine strategy is to have smaller bodies, like dwarf species on small islands.

Jan 03 20:18:35 <LouisWu> I dont see cold blooded as being a niche, so much as an intermediate step towards warm blooded....

Jan 03 20:18:41 <Lensman> Tan: Yes. But not when active.

Jan 03 20:18:46 <Hippy> That;s one, Lens.

Jan 03 20:18:59 <Tanada> yeah, but think about this

Jan 03 20:18:59 <Hippy> But crocodiles can go months without eating because they're cold blooded

Jan 03 20:19:23 <Tanada> what if every night when you went to sleep your body temp dropped 30 degrees to conserve energy?

Jan 03 20:19:26 <LouisWu> hippy: But they also have lots of restrictions because of that

Jan 03 20:19:51 <Hippy> Not enough restrictions to stop them breeding, though

Jan 03 20:20:02 <Tanada> on the Ringworld if you were nocturnal you could be sleep/cold 20 hours out of 30

Jan 03 20:20:04 <ronn> "Tanada> what if every night when you went to sleep your body temp dropped 30 degrees to conserve energy?" The cat would probably find something else to snuggle against.

Jan 03 20:20:05 <LouisWu> Tanada: Unless you can hide underground, you'd be easy prey

Jan 03 20:20:16 <Lensman> Mammalian metabolism uses body heat to maintain stable body temperature. That allows us to have frex highly developed nervous systems. Abandon that, you have to jettison the highly developed nervous system, too. In which case, it's no longer a "mammal".

Jan 03 20:20:52 <Hippy> That sounds a little chauvinist to me. . .

Jan 03 20:21:09 <ronn> "Lensman> Mammalian metabolism uses body heat to maintain stable body temperature. That allows us to have frex highly developed nervous systems. Abandon that, you have to jettison the highly developed nervous system, too. In which case, it's no longer a "mammal"." - - - tho it could probably run for Congress just fine . . .

Jan 03 20:21:13 <LouisWu> I think mammals became warm blooded so they could come out at night, to avoid the dinosaurs...

Jan 03 20:21:27 <Fred> you don't know any highly nervous women?

Jan 03 20:21:36 <Tanada> Not so Lens, hibernating mamals still have advanced nervous systems

Jan 03 20:21:56 <Hippy> Thanks, Tanada. I wish I'd thought of that

Jan 03 20:22:11 <Lensman> Some/many dinosaurs were warm-blooded too. But it seems their temperature regulatory systems were not as well developed as mammals'.

Jan 03 20:22:39 <Fred> bob bakker rules

Jan 03 20:22:45 <Hippy> Now, these cold hominids aren't going to run any marathons, but they could survive in a hot environment, something like a Death Valley valley created by disturbances in the RW floor

Jan 03 20:22:53 * LouisWu has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Jan 03 20:22:55 <Tanada> a chicken or a duck maintain stable body temp just fine, unless there was a lot of refinement no reason to think those lines of dinos had that problem

Jan 03 20:23:04 <Lensman> Tan: I think you want to argue. Hibernating mammals maintain a stable body temperature, too... it's just a *lower* one, which they maintain when their metabolism is running at a lower rate. When they wake up, they have to crank it up again.

Jan 03 20:23:24 <Lensman> BTW mammals do not experience true "hybernation", that's a misnomer.

Jan 03 20:23:47 <Tanada> Lens I was saying what if they hibernate nightly?

Jan 03 20:24:03 <SeanS> hehe... sums me up ;)

Jan 03 20:24:08 <Lensman> Frex bears really do not sleep thru the entire winter, they wake up periodically.

Jan 03 20:24:25 <Fred> not according to HEY THERE IT'S YOGI BEAR

Jan 03 20:24:26 <Tanada> Time to sleep, body temp is allowed to fal, time to wake body heat cranks up

Jan 03 20:24:30 <Lensman> Tan: They could. That's not the same as being cold-blooded.

Jan 03 20:25:05 <Tanada> I know I specified a 30 degree drop, you more or less convinced me cold blooded 24/7 won't work

Jan 03 20:25:55 * Hippy AFK a moment becaue it's warm outside and I need to think :)

Jan 03 20:26:10 <Fred> now that the Ringworld doesn't have night any more . . .

Jan 03 20:26:27 <SeanS> cold blooded is a misnomer... enviromentally defined is more accurate. a lizard on a hot desert floor might have a 120+ degree temp

Jan 03 20:26:35 <ronn> "Lensman> Frex bears really do not sleep thru the entire winter, they wake up periodically." - - - But until they have some coffee they're unbearable . . .

Jan 03 20:26:36 <Tanada> naw they were gonna build a dyson shell of photo voltaics with windowns remember?

Jan 03 20:27:11 <Tanada> besides blotting out the sun would be a good hiding strategy for the new location

Jan 03 20:27:43 <SeanS> too bad larry wasnt here to see that tanada

Jan 03 20:29:21 <Tanada> I know LuiseWu/Protector suggested it in RC

Jan 03 20:29:35 <Tanada> it got my attention

Jan 03 20:29:47 <SeanS> need to reread that... i read it to quick the first time

Jan 03 20:30:05 <Lensman> "Did you see any sign of civilization?" "If I had, I'd tell you. For all I know, the whole ten trillion of 'em moved to a real Dyson sphere last month."

Jan 03 20:30:36 <Lensman> See, Louis was right very early on, he just didn't realize it. Of course, it was much earlier than "last month".

Jan 03 20:30:53 <Tanada> lol

Jan 03 20:31:30 <Lensman> I thought this fit in very nicely with the list discussion about "DimpleWorld"

Jan 03 20:31:30 * Hippy has returned

Jan 03 20:31:31 <Tanada> so is there a consesnsus that nightly hibernation MIGHT be a successful strategy, provided you have a secure sleeping place?

Jan 03 20:32:35 <Tanada> wb Hippy

Jan 03 20:32:59 <Lensman> Tan: It's hard to get a consensus on any subject online, but I think it's a reasonable strategy.

Jan 03 20:33:37 <Tanada> did you ever read the book about the galactic black hole centered dyson sphere? The star's orbited it providing light

Jan 03 20:34:31 <Tanada> can't relcall the title or author but I remeber the plot

Jan 03 20:34:32 <SeanS> i remember a series of stories about a dyson sphere around the galactic core... long time ago.

Jan 03 20:34:34 <Lensman> I have not. Who's the author?

Jan 03 20:34:36 <ronn> Which book was that?

Jan 03 20:34:50 <Tanada> grr my typo's stink

Jan 03 20:35:22 <Tanada> I lost the book years ago to a pipe burst flood into my basement apartment

Jan 03 20:35:29 <SeanS> mainly centered around a husband and wife team in a ship checking on new people to bring in

Jan 03 20:35:38 <Hippy> Orbitsville?

Jan 03 20:35:52 <SeanS> i dont remember the title or author

Jan 03 20:36:05 <Tanada> This one starred a group of colonists who were kidnapped to the dyson sphere

Jan 03 20:36:08 <Hippy> Hmm. Well, that narrows it down at least

Jan 03 20:36:24 <Lensman> IIRC James White's /Federation/ is set in a Dyson semi-sphere, open at the top and bottom, terraced and spun for gravity. So halfway between a ringworld and a true Dyson sphere.

Jan 03 20:36:24 <SeanS> tanada... different story

Jan 03 20:36:40 <Tanada> the stars orbiting the sphere were synchronized with the spin

Jan 03 20:36:42 <Jim> The short story Hold Until Relieved, by William H. Keith, Jr. Part of Keith Laumer's Bolo universe. Galactic core surrounded by Dyson shell.

Jan 03 20:36:43 <SeanS> the one i am thinking of my be federation

Jan 03 20:36:52 <SeanS> may be

Jan 03 20:36:58 <ronn> Usually when I lived in a basement apartment floods were due to someone upstairs continuing to flush in hopes that whatever they had dropped in the toilet would eventually pass through . . .

Jan 03 20:37:06 <Hippy> A true Dyson shell , Lens

Jan 03 20:37:22 <Tanada> so each star acted like a spotlight, in the center was hot but there was a twilight zone between stars

Jan 03 20:38:01 <Lensman> Hippy: Ah interesting. Nobody does Dyson *shells*!

Jan 03 20:38:01 <Tanada> ronn in my case the biulding boiler died during christmas break and the idiot landlord didn;t drain the pipes

Jan 03 20:38:25 <SeanS> ouch

Jan 03 20:38:29 <Tanada> when the new on was installed the pipes on the second and third floors burst

Jan 03 20:38:39 <Tanada> after they thawed out

Jan 03 20:38:49 <ronn> (stars as spotlights): How would that work?

Jan 03 20:39:09 <Hippy> I'm quoting Larry from somewhere, that Dyson wanted multiple planets around the sun in a shere, but writes misunderstoood it and created the single piece 'shell'

Jan 03 20:40:02 <SeanS> so dyson was really creating firefly?

Jan 03 20:40:11 <Lensman> Hippy: You're correct, look at the Wikipedia article on Dyson sphere.

Jan 03 20:40:25 <Hippy> God, I hope not, Sean

Jan 03 20:40:41 <Lensman> But as I understand it, Larry is the first to use the term "Dyson sphere" in a story, so it's all his fault!

Jan 03 20:40:42 <Hippy> Thanks, Lens

Jan 03 20:41:02 <Hippy> Now that I didn't know, Lens

Jan 03 20:41:50 <Tanada> ronn the black hole in the center kept them in orbit like a kemplerer rosette

Jan 03 20:41:52 <Lensman> Actually I don't know that Dyson specified "planets", he just specified structures which were orbiting the star all in different orbits in such a way that they intercepted all the light.

Jan 03 20:42:16 <Fred> btw, Serenity is on tonight in HD

Jan 03 20:42:21 <SeanS> actually makes more snces than a sphere

Jan 03 20:42:22 <Hippy> Sorry, quite right. He didn't specify planets - or teeth

Jan 03 20:42:25 <Tanada> and the shell spun to keep them in fixed relative place

Jan 03 20:42:26 <SeanS> sense

Jan 03 20:42:49 <SeanS> i dont have a high def source yet for my high def tv

Jan 03 20:42:50 <ronn> One early spring at BYU they started up the circulation in the A/C pipes in the attic of the science center and discovered that over the winter they had frozen and burst so there was a flood that started in the room under the observatory dome on the roof where some of the TA offices were and drained down the hole through which the support of the Foucalt pendulum hung, then filled up the bowl...

Jan 03 20:42:51 <ronn> ...that surrounded the pendulum bob to keep people in the lobby away from the swing . . .

Jan 03 20:43:03 <Fred> so he had multiple nipples orbiting?

Jan 03 20:43:29 <Hippy> LOL!!

Jan 03 20:43:37 <Dan> Sounds like Serenity to me.

Jan 03 20:44:11 <Jim> 9 pm on skiffy channel

Jan 03 20:44:26 <Lensman> "Serenity" is an excellent movie, highly recommended.

Jan 03 20:44:39 <SeanS> i need to bump up my dish subscription to HD

Jan 03 20:44:51 <Hippy> Maybe if I'm sat down at gunpoint. . .

Jan 03 20:44:59 <Fred> COX promised us 70 HD channels by the ende of the year

Jan 03 20:45:02 <Tanada> anyone else enjoy Twilight?

Jan 03 20:45:17 <SeanS> havent watched it yet... twilight

Jan 03 20:45:20 <Hippy> It's not out here yet

Jan 03 20:45:27 <Fred> finally added some on NewYears Eve

Jan 03 20:45:41 <SeanS> dish has 150 i think... thats what they advertise anyway

Jan 03 20:45:44 <Dan> I need to watch that BBC special on the next actor to play Doctor Who before 10 PM.

Jan 03 20:45:49 <Lensman> "Twilight"? Is that the movie about young vampire love?

Jan 03 20:45:55 <Fred> si we have fci HD

Jan 03 20:45:55 <Tanada> speaking of cold blooded, perhaps thats why vampires survive on a few pints a day of calories?

Jan 03 20:46:03 <Tanada> yes Lens

Jan 03 20:46:41 <Hippy> You mean RW vampires or 'canonical' ones?

Jan 03 20:46:48 <Lensman> "A few pints a day" of blood sounds like a lot of calories!

Jan 03 20:47:07 <Fred> A friend of mine just got dish. He can't see how they count up to 150

Jan 03 20:47:13 <Lensman> Oh, I thought we were talking Rw vampires.

Jan 03 20:47:38 <Lensman> Dish Network sucked when we had it. I would never recommend it.

Jan 03 20:47:40 <ronn> I got as far as recording the ST:TOS episode "Who Mourns for Adoanis?" to DVD today as a test to see if I could indeed record off the air . . .

Jan 03 20:47:45 <Tanada> well most of the ones I see in movies are pretty sloppy and most of the blood is spilled

Jan 03 20:47:47 <Hippy> RW ones get quite a bit of blood, if you can judge by the encounter with Valavirgillin

Jan 03 20:48:33 <Tanada> I wonder if they have a blood bladder inside they can fill a lot?

Jan 03 20:48:55 <Jim> I have gotta go; it has been real; bye.

Jan 03 20:49:07 <Tanada> an analog for like a cows four stomaches

Jan 03 20:49:09 <ronn> I also accidentally created a log of the last couple of hours of this chat when I pressed the wrong key

Jan 03 20:49:11 <Hippy> Well, toothed and baleen hominids, I have been sumoned away from the chat

Jan 03 20:49:15 <Dan> Night, Jim.

Jan 03 20:49:17 <Lensman> There are a practically infinite variety of horror fiction vampires. Dracula seemed to follow more the model of a dead body possessed by a demon. IIRC Lucy was able to slip into her crypt when it was only open a crack.

Jan 03 20:49:18 <ronn> Bye, Jim!

Jan 03 20:49:26 <Tanada> night

Jan 03 20:49:33 * Jim has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122])

Jan 03 20:49:33 <Hippy> 'Bye Jim

Jan 03 20:49:38 <Dan> Night, Hippy.

Jan 03 20:49:39 <SeanS> night all departing

Jan 03 20:49:42 <Hippy> And I too, must go

Jan 03 20:49:46 <ronn> Bye, Hippy!

Jan 03 20:49:48 <Tanada> night hippy

Jan 03 20:49:48 <Hippy> See you all next month

Jan 03 20:49:50 <Lensman> So I'm not sure how much blood is really required for a supernatural vampire to live. Maybe very little.

Jan 03 20:50:04 <Hippy> When with any luck I'll be able to acutlally see :)

Jan 03 20:50:11 <Lensman> Bye to everyone leaving!

Jan 03 20:50:12 * Hippy has quit ()

Jan 03 20:50:32 <Tanada> Dracula was more like superhuman than demon possesed in the book

Jan 03 20:50:51 <Fred> Dracula got younger by drinking more boodl

Jan 03 20:52:16 <Fred> and he tossed babies to his three brides to share

Jan 03 20:52:25 * Tanada has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Jan 03 20:52:48 <Dan> I've always prefered Fred Saberhagen's Dracula rather than Bram Stoker's.

Jan 03 20:53:00 <Lensman> Yes, and had the power to summon rats. Maybe take the shape of a wolf too, I forget. I really need to re-read that novel.

Jan 03 20:53:33 <Fred> wolf, rat, all the 'baser creatures'

Jan 03 20:54:17 <Lensman> Dracula is rather far from the stereotypical vampire as developed in the movies. He could even walk about in daylight, but he needed a hat rather badly.

Jan 03 20:55:18 <Fred> he was mostly just stuck in one form by daylight

Jan 03 20:56:00 <Lensman> To a large degree, yes, Dracula appeared as a man with a magnetic personality, not a demon. It was just the one bit in Dracula where Lucy slips into her... I can't remember the term. A stone coffin... when the lid was only open a crack.

Jan 03 20:56:50 <Fred> yeah, they can become dust mites (if you are poetically minded)

Jan 03 20:57:12 <Dan> The term is Crypt.

Jan 03 20:57:35 <Lensman> Okay I was right the first time then.

Jan 03 20:58:10 <Lensman> I was thinking crypt = mausoleum.

Jan 03 20:58:18 <Dan> That's right.

Jan 03 20:58:29 <ronn> A crack in de Crypt?

Jan 03 21:00:26 <Dan> Lucy slipped in through a gap where Van Helsing removed a bit of plaster that he'd made with wafers of the Host he'd gotten from a priest, then mixed with some sort of putty to seal the door to the crypt.

Jan 03 21:01:50 <Dan> Just because I prefer Saberhagen's version doesn't mean I don't re-read Stoker's original every other year or so.

Jan 03 21:03:17 <Fred> I recall when the dreadful Keanu movie came out

Jan 03 21:03:24 <ronn> apparently no one got the poor attempt at a cryptographic pun . . .

Jan 03 21:03:26 <Dan> Which one?

Jan 03 21:03:49 <Fred> bookstar had a display of books

Jan 03 21:04:01 <Dan> Dreadful Keanu movie? I got the cryptic pun. :)

Jan 03 21:04:22 <Fred> stoker's original on one side

Jan 03 21:04:37 <Fred> saberhagen movie novel on theother

Jan 03 21:04:40 <Lensman> LOL yah you mean "The Day the Earth Stood Still"? :D

Jan 03 21:05:11 <Lensman> I don't remember Keanu in a vampire movie. Guess I'm lucky, huh?

Jan 03 21:05:18 <SeanS> why would they remake that... i have no idea

Jan 03 21:05:39 <Fred> saberhagen ssold out, stoker was untouched

Jan 03 21:05:45 <Lensman> $ame rea$on they remade Planet of the Ape$, I guess.

Jan 03 21:05:49 <Dan> So far, the only good Keanu movies I'm aware of were the first Bill & Ted and the first Matrix.

Jan 03 21:06:12 <Lensman> I think "Speed" is a very good movie.

Jan 03 21:06:15 <SeanS> speed was ok.. but he didnt talk much

Jan 03 21:06:23 <SeanS> which is probably why

Jan 03 21:06:27 <Dan> That's maybe why it was good?

Jan 03 21:06:28 <Lensman> Which was a plus.

Jan 03 21:06:57 <Dan> Perhaps he should only make silent movies.

Jan 03 21:07:12 <Dan> LOL!

Jan 03 21:07:42 <SeanS> no, just ones where its all action with music and he doesnt speak. i guess keanu be silent movies

Jan 03 21:08:06 <Dan> I've got one that's an animated version of a PK Dick story. Well, rotoscoped, not really animated.

Jan 03 21:08:43 <Lensman> "Matrix" was a good SF film, as long as you don't think about it. At all.

Jan 03 21:09:12 <Dan> Never been able to get up the nerve to overcome my Keanu aversion in order to try watching it. I only bought it so that PK Dick's kids could collect the royaltys on the sale.

Jan 03 21:09:20 <Lensman> If you think about it, then the idea of human beings used as a power source is ludicrous. They would consume *far* more energy than they emit.

Jan 03 21:09:49 <Lensman> But do not, repeat NOT watch the two Matrix sequels. Gahh.

Jan 03 21:09:50 <ronn>

Jan 03 21:09:56 <SeanS> yeah but 'lobby shooting spree' sounds great on the dolby digital

Jan 03 21:10:42 <Dan> "We need guns. Lotsa guns..." Then they go into my closet.

Jan 03 21:10:52 <SeanS> heh

Jan 03 21:11:22 <SeanS> i wish that was my closet ;)

Jan 03 21:11:29 <Lensman> One comment I thought was telling about the Matrix was "Why don't their guns have endless ammo? It's just a simple logic loop in the computer code..."

Jan 03 21:11:54 <Lensman> Now there was a guy thinking WAY WAY too much about the film!

Jan 03 21:12:04 <Dan> Lens, the only real answer is "because it wasn't a western."

Jan 03 21:12:08 <SeanS> then they wouldnt have to bring out more and different styles of guns

Jan 03 21:13:10 <SeanS> i am sure "the one" could think... i really need more bullets in this clip

Jan 03 21:13:18 <SeanS> and there would be

Jan 03 21:13:44 <Lensman> Say, on another subject: Anybody know the name of that new TV series they've been advertising with Timothy Hutton?

Jan 03 21:13:58 <Dan> Nope.

Jan 03 21:15:10 <Lensman> Found it, "Leverage". On TNT.

Jan 03 21:19:51 <Dan> OK folks, my wife and I are going to watch Doctor Who Confidential, then go watch Graham Norton, after that I've got a couple of hours of cartoons to watch before bedtime. It's been a blast, tonight. Great to see more people in the chat. I hope this trend continues! Goodnight, and Happy New Year!

Jan 03 21:20:08 <SeanS> you too dan

Jan 03 21:20:27 * Dan has quit ()

Jan 03 21:20:36 <ronn> 'night, Dan!

Jan 03 21:21:51 <ronn> sounds like things are winding down . . .

Jan 03 21:22:39 <SeanS> looks that way

Jan 03 21:22:55 <SeanS> have any problems getting in today?

Jan 03 21:23:28 <Lensman> Night everyone, and again Happy New Year!

Jan 03 21:23:53 <Lensman> I had no problems getting or staying connected at all.

Jan 03 21:24:22 <SeanS> cool... i was asking ronn tho because he mentioned having a problem last month

Jan 03 21:24:23 <Lensman> What was the deal last month, anyway?

Jan 03 21:24:59 <SeanS> other than ronn, was there a problem last month?

Jan 03 21:26:18 <Lensman> Perhaps I'm remembering wrong, but I thought several people had problems. I had a delay in connecting via mIRC and later lost my connection. Couldn't get back on right away, so went to the Java client at the site.

Jan 03 21:26:58 <Lensman> A few minutes later I was able to get back via mIRC, tho.

Jan 03 21:28:10 <SeanS> could of been a glitch somewhere... i swited pc's before last months chat but have made no changes since... same server box as this month

Jan 03 21:29:46 <SeanS> last month was dec 1 on saturday right? i was at my 40th birthday party

Jan 03 21:29:51 <Lensman> Well, I'm not enuff of a computer geek to know if the problem was with my ISP or somewhere between that and your server.

Jan 03 21:30:48 <SeanS> i will go back and check the log.

Jan 03 21:31:03 <Lensman> My calendar says Dec 6.

Jan 03 21:31:32 <SeanS> right

Jan 03 21:31:56 <SeanS> could of just been a goofy night for either my isp or the net in general

Jan 03 21:32:03 <Lensman> *Shrug* if no one else complained, I guess it was just me.

Jan 03 21:32:23 <SeanS> ronn said he had problems... so not just you

Jan 03 21:32:41 <SeanS> tho nothing has changed on my side since before then

Jan 03 21:35:36 <ronn> Sean: On the Java client, just like last month: it gives me a white screen with a large Java logo in the corner, then after a long time tries to put up some sort of "Security Warning" box (often only the top bar and part of the outline appear) and there it hangs forever. Sometime during the last month I got a message that there was a new Java version available for download and I clicked...

Jan 03 21:35:38 <ronn> ..."OK" for the upgrade and it seemed to work. However, after trying the Java client again a couple of times last night and this afternoon with the same results I entered the "irc://…/knownspace" address into Firefox and got in using ChatZilla and have had no trouble since (though I have been learning the relatively minor differences between this and the other client). I dunno what the...

Jan 03 21:35:39 <ronn> ...problem is with the Java client (maybe something I did or something my ISP did to block it since the last tie I successfully logged in using it??) but at least this worked quite well indeed for the past, what? 6 hours or so?

Jan 03 21:36:52 <SeanS> it could also be that you tried to get in when i had fired off a giganews download that typically maxes my connection

Jan 03 21:37:45 <Lensman> I guess if I was that concerned I'd check last month's chat log and see if people were complaining about difficulty getting on. But I'm not that worried about it. I seldom have any problems here.

Jan 03 21:39:01 <SeanS> with text be so little bandwidth, i wouldnt think that my download would affect it much.

Jan 03 21:39:13 <SeanS> i will point to general net problems but i will look

Jan 03 21:39:28 <SeanS> glad everybody got in ok today

Jan 03 21:39:43 <SeanS> feel free to email me if you have a problem getting in

Jan 03 21:40:24 <SeanS> i have it set to 100 users at a time right now

Jan 03 21:40:38 <ronn> Every bloody time? Last month I kept trying every few minutes or so (eventually I tried less often) with both Firefox and IE all afternoon, and rebooted sometimes in between attempts, too, and the same thing happened (or more correctly didn't happen) every time for some hours . . .

Jan 03 21:40:56 <ronn> 100 was certainly enough even today . . .

Jan 03 21:42:07 <SeanS> my bandwidth should handle over a thousand

Jan 03 21:42:09 <Lensman> Well Niven fans, I think I shall be calling it a night.

Jan 03 21:42:30 <ronn> "It's a night!"

Jan 03 21:42:48 <Lensman> :) Ronn stole my line.

Jan 03 21:42:54 * Lensman has quit ()

Jan 03 21:42:54 <SeanS> heh

Jan 03 21:43:09 <ronn> As I said earlier, great minds think alike . . .