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Nov 10 14:09:13 * lensman_free (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 10 14:11:17 * lensman_free has changed the topic to: FLEET OF WORLDS chat, for those who have read the book.

Nov 10 14:27:27 * George (~George@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 10 14:28:27 * George has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

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Nov 10 14:30:25 <lensman_free> Hi George!

Nov 10 14:30:40 * lensman_free is now known as Lensman

Nov 10 14:31:41 <George_C> Hi!

Nov 10 14:31:55 <George_C> Couldn't stand it, had to log in early.

Nov 10 14:32:43 <Lensman> Yah. Actually I need to go and fix my lunch now, so I don't have to do it later.

Nov 10 14:32:53 * Lensman is now known as Lensman_free

Nov 10 14:33:25 <George_C> Good idea. Can't chat until 3:00 anyway.

Nov 10 14:41:39 * Lensman_free is now known as Lensman

Nov 10 14:48:21 * Nesssus (~nesssus@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 10 14:48:37 <Nesssus> Hello Sean

Nov 10 14:49:02 * Nesssus (~nesssus@88.111.139.XX) has left #knownspace

Nov 10 14:49:23 * Nesssus (~nesssus@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 10 14:49:30 <George_C> Hi, Nesssus.

Nov 10 14:49:36 <Nesssus> Hi George

Nov 10 14:50:46 <Lensman> Welcome Nesssus!

Nov 10 14:50:51 <Nesssus> Hi Lensman

Nov 10 14:51:18 <Nesssus> Sadly I won't be participating in the chat tonight

Nov 10 14:51:27 <Nesssus> just come on here to set the log up.

Nov 10 14:51:48 <Nesssus> Started reading FOW today, but so far only got to page 93!

Nov 10 14:52:00 <Lensman> Well, there's nothing to prevent someone *else* from calling for a 2nd FOW chat at a later date.

Nov 10 14:52:06 <Nesssus> so don't want to spoil it.

Nov 10 14:52:19 <George_C> Ah. I just finished it about 90 minutes ago.

Nov 10 14:52:28 <Nesssus> lol -

Nov 10 14:52:54 <Lensman> Oh, so we shouldn't tell you the Kzinti turn out to be Tnuctipun, and the core explosion turns out to be a hoax...

Nov 10 14:53:05 <Lensman> Oops, wrong story! :D

Nov 10 14:53:16 <Nesssus> I'm going back to the book now, if I hurry I can maybe catch the tail end of the chat if it goes on into the early hours.....

Nov 10 14:53:25 * Nesssus is now known as Ness_logging

Nov 10 14:53:51 <Ness_logging> goodnight

Nov 10 14:54:05 <Lensman> G'nite Nesssus

Nov 10 14:57:00 <George_C> In addition to the FOW chats today, in a couple of weeks it would probably be okay to start a FOW thread on the list.

Nov 10 14:57:39 <Lensman> I look forward to that.

Nov 10 15:00:48 <George_C> Do I understand that Larry and Ed both will try to be here?

Nov 10 15:01:41 <Lensman> Ed has promised to be here. Haven't heard a word about Larry. I did ask Ed to pass the message along to him.

Nov 10 15:02:20 <George_C> Okay. Thought someone had said both.

Nov 10 15:03:05 <Lensman> Maybe someone who knows more than I do said Larry will be here. I can hope so!

Nov 10 15:04:02 <George_C> Yeah, that would be sweet. If either of them could use some ego-boost, I think they'd get it here!

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Nov 10 15:04:37 <George_C> For me, I'm very impressed with FOW.

Nov 10 15:04:38 <Lensman> By my count, FOW directly impacts on the events in "At the Core", "Flatlander", "The Borderland of Sol", "There Is a Tide"

Nov 10 15:04:56 <Lensman> And indirectly relates to

Nov 10 15:04:57 <George_C> Hey! Just talking about you, Larry. Welcome!

Nov 10 15:05:08 <Lensman> Welcome Larry!

Nov 10 15:05:49 <Larry> Thank you all, and hello.

Nov 10 15:05:54 <Lensman> ...indirectly relates to "A Relic of the Empire", "The Color of Sunfire" and /Ringworld Engineers/.

Nov 10 15:05:56 <George_C> We were just wondering if we'd get both FOW authors here. Ed should be here shortly, we hope.

Nov 10 15:06:28 <Larry> I expect Ed will appear.

Nov 10 15:06:39 <George_C> Agreed, Lensman. FOW neatly touches on several aspects and events in KS. Very nicely done!

Nov 10 15:06:56 <Lensman> Larry, has "The Color of Sunfire" officially been kicked out of the KS canon, as "One Face" and "Bordered in Black" were?

Nov 10 15:08:19 <Larry> "The Color of Sunfire" may or may not fit canon--I forget details--but it isn't needed. The themes got used elsewhere.

Nov 10 15:08:47 <George_C> The FOW look at Citizen culture is fascinating and more than a little creepy. We may never see Puppeteers the same way again. The thing about aliens is . . .

Nov 10 15:08:56 <Larry> In fact, the story may be older than "Ringworld", and the sunflowers likewise.

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Nov 10 15:10:06 <EML> Hi, all.

Nov 10 15:10:10 <George_C> Welcome, Ed!

Nov 10 15:10:58 <George_C> Now I can say it: Thanks, both of you, for FOW! Well done, gentlemen. Damn well done!

Nov 10 15:11:18 <EML> You're very kind. Glad you enjoyed it.

Nov 10 15:11:27 <Lensman> We were discussing "Color" here a month or two ago. As Ed pointed out, there doesn't seem to be any reason for the Fleet not to have been formed *before* it took flight. Why would the Puppeteers leave their farming worlds widely separated from Hearth? Not impossible, but it does call into question why Schultz-Mann saw only the single world, not the Klemperer Rosette which Louis et al saw.

Nov 10 15:11:44 <Lensman> Hello, Ed!

Nov 10 15:12:06 <EML> For some reason, Dave, I thought you weren't going ot make it today.

Nov 10 15:12:24 <Lensman> Which "Dave"?

Nov 10 15:12:59 <EML> Umm, Isn't Lensman = Dave? (If not ... oops.)

Nov 10 15:13:32 <Lensman> Wild Humans couldn't keep me from this chat! :D Yah I'm "Dave" but there are too many Daves on the list, that's why I go by Lensman.

Nov 10 15:14:12 <EML> Re Schultz-Mann seeing one world, that was only in Sunfire, right? AFAIK, that's noncanonical.

Nov 10 15:15:28 <George_C> Okay, so what surprised everyone most in FOW?

Nov 10 15:15:32 <Lensman> One thing *not* addressed in FOW is how the Puppeteers tracked the /Puppet Master/, the pirates' ship in "A Relic of the Empire". Apparently Puppeteers can NOT send a hyperwave signal from inside a gravity well. It occurs to me they *could* have planted a hyperwave transmitter on the ship.

Nov 10 15:15:34 <Larry> Yeah, right. That's why Sunfire is noncanonical.

Nov 10 15:16:08 <Lensman> Ed: Yes, I had asked Larry if Sunfire had officially been ruled non-canonical.

Nov 10 15:16:53 <Lensman> What surprised me the most? Well, aside from the fact that the Puppeteers had a hidden colony of Humans, it would be the lack of defenses for Hearth.

Nov 10 15:17:03 <EML> There's a way to track ships in hyperspace ... not revealed until JUGGLER.

Nov 10 15:18:05 <Lensman> Ed just *loves* to tease us with these "I can't talk about that" tidbits!

Nov 10 15:18:32 <George_C> Yeah, I thought that odd. A handful of Colonists on an old human-built ship was able to hold the Concordance to ransom. How? Because their action was inconceivable to their masters.

Nov 10 15:18:42 <EML> Conventional defenses requires conventional warriors ... of which the Concordance has a rather short supply.

Nov 10 15:18:49 <Larry> It strikes me that the Fleet may have defenses not yet revealed to any of our characters. Then again, why weren't they used in "Fleet"?

Nov 10 15:18:58 * Dan (~vila@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 10 15:19:13 <Dan> Hiya, sorry I'm late...

Nov 10 15:19:13 <George_C> Hi, Dan!

Nov 10 15:19:21 <EML> Hi Dan

Nov 10 15:19:37 <EML> If there were defenses, Nike would have known.

Nov 10 15:19:55 <Dan> Got company and the time slipped away from me.

Nov 10 15:20:20 <George_C> The Concordance believed their fleet was usless, because they thought the rebels had antimatter.

Nov 10 15:20:40 <George_C> They were wrong, of course.

Nov 10 15:20:42 <Lensman> I think it also calls into question "Captain Kidd" 's tale in "A Relic of the Empire". If the Puppeteers already had been "invaded" by one pirate, wouldn't they have put up some planetary defenses? In fact, considering their apparent paranoia, why don't they have the best defenses in Known Space for their world? It did occur to me they might be worried about someone taking control of those defenses and using them to threaten Hearth.

Nov 10 15:21:32 <George_C> Here's a thought: the Citizens left a fake decoy world where theirs used to be. Too much . . ?

Nov 10 15:22:15 <Lensman> A defensive "fleet" would have to be manned by "mad" Puppeteers. Automated defense fortresses was the sort of thing I was thinking. Or at least a few ships filled with the sort of robots which overran the /Long Pass/!

Nov 10 15:22:29 <EML> Maybe I don't recall Relic of Empire completely ... but did the pirates ever get around to blackmailing the Puppeteers, or did they get destroyed first?

Nov 10 15:23:27 <EML> Automated defense fortresses? Too close to AI -- which scare the $^%#!! out of Puppeteers. Why build your successors?

Nov 10 15:24:07 <Larry> Jerry Pournelle has complained to me that known space is not well defended. Maybe the Citizens didn't have defenses to copy.

Nov 10 15:24:08 <Lensman> In "Relic" the pirates were too stupid/ignorant to try to blackmail the Puppeteers. They just robbed three Puppeteer ships which were coming into Hearth laden with cash.

Nov 10 15:24:40 <Lensman> Ed: Good point re A.I.

Nov 10 15:26:16 <Lensman> Ed, that raises a question: Was there a Puppeteer scout present on the ship which attacked the /Long Pass/? Given lack of AI, it seems there would *have* to be someone on-site directing operations.

Nov 10 15:27:39 <EML> There's nothing in FLEET to make explicit whether someone was aboard the GP4 ship (whose name escapes me) ... but I would argue there must have been.

Nov 10 15:27:54 <Dan> Can hyperwave be used for sending remote control signals to machinery?

Nov 10 15:28:20 <Lensman> Dan: Hyperwave relays are used extensively in FOW.

Nov 10 15:29:09 <Larry> There must have been a scout, and he must have been mad.

Nov 10 15:29:10 <George_C> Ship was the Preserver. I took it that the crew had no guidance, they just reacted out of fear, and perhaps with a kind of First Contact guideline from HQ.

Nov 10 15:29:14 <Dan> Not exactly what I was getting at, Lens.

Nov 10 15:29:27 <EML> Larry -- re Jerry's point ... did he not think the MKW wars involved defenses?

Nov 10 15:29:31 <Dan> But thanks.

Nov 10 15:30:06 <Lensman> This touches on "The Soft Weapon". I had thought Nessus' ability to send a distress signal from the surface of Cueball meant Puppeteers have the tech to send a hyperwave signal from inside a gravity well, but per FOW it looks like he was relaying thru a drone outside the gravity well, probably via radio.

Nov 10 15:30:08 <Larry> Sorry. Jerry's remark was for EARLY known space. It's singleships he didn't believe in.

Nov 10 15:30:26 <EML> George -- yes, a panicked crew aboard Preserver.

Nov 10 15:30:43 <George_C> Then again, with an agent on board, the reaction might well have been the same.

Nov 10 15:31:13 <George_C> Citizens Doctrine: If it's unknown neutralize it first, ask questions later?

Nov 10 15:31:36 <EML> About clarifying events during The Soft Weapon (sorry to be a broken record) ... wait until JUGGLER.

Nov 10 15:32:02 <George_C> Is this to be a trilogy?

Nov 10 15:33:05 <EML> we haven't set out to create a trilogy -- or even a dilogy. that's not say we might not ever do another.

Nov 10 15:33:57 <George_C> Okay. For a moment I thought you'd say, "That answer will cost you one billion stars!"

Nov 10 15:34:04 <Lensman> Ed: So currently you and Larry have no plans for any KS stories past "Juggler", which I understand you've completed?

Nov 10 15:34:19 <Larry> Talking about a collaboration classes as recreation. It isn't work until you sit down to write.

Nov 10 15:34:29 <George_C> The inner look at the Concordance was interesting and creepy. One begins to understand Speaker's fear. The Puppete-- excuse me, Citizens are fearfully advanced, and if they fear you, will do whatever it takes to ease their fear.

Nov 10 15:35:22 <EML> As for JUGGLER, yes, it's completed. It's tentatively due out in August 2008.

Nov 10 15:35:29 <George_C> :-D

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Nov 10 15:36:16 <George_C> Maybe if we generate enough ideas here and on the list, since the next book is done, they'll just have to keep writing . . !

Nov 10 15:36:51 <EML> THere are worse fates ...

Nov 10 15:37:00 <Larry> My wife asks if I always saw Puppeteers as dangerous and evil. Dangerous, yes; evil, no. They're cowards because I needed them to need Beowulf Shaeffer in "Neutron Star".

Nov 10 15:37:24 <Lensman> This is something, perhaps the one thing that bothers me about FOW: That the Citizens seriously contemplated, at a high level of government, taking direct action to devastate inhabited worlds. In /Ringworld/ we see they deal with the Kzinti threat *very* indirectly, by leading the Outsiders to intervene in the first Man-Kzin War. Yet in FOW they contemplate direct destructive action? They must have been *very* sure such couldn't be traced back to t

Nov 10 15:37:49 <Dan> I like the way that Larry can find something new to say about something that he previously thought was finished. New thoughts, new stories = fun for we readers!

Nov 10 15:38:10 <George_C> More gear for the Playground! Yah!

Nov 10 15:38:33 <Lensman> What Dan said, yah!

Nov 10 15:38:34 <EML> To me, they aren't evil. Puppeteers show willingness to try to save Earth despite their fear.

Nov 10 15:38:55 <Larry> Lensman, the Fleet was in flight, leaving known space. It gave them some freedom to make mistakes. (still stupid, though.)

Nov 10 15:39:01 <Dan> Sorry about the slow typing, still have one arm in a sling. :)

Nov 10 15:39:13 <Lensman> Thanks, Larry.

Nov 10 15:39:32 <EML> OTOH, the Citizens were *very* coldblooded about wiping out advanced civilization on Ringworld.

Nov 10 15:39:58 <George_C> Had the Concordance been evil, there would be no conflict. Earth and the Gw'oth wolrd would have been smashed.

Nov 10 15:40:25 <George_C> Knocked down the technology, yes, but not outright extermination.

Nov 10 15:41:11 <EML> given planetbuster capability , the only safety is to stay hidden.

Nov 10 15:41:31 <George_C> Earth was too advanced to kill easily. Gw'oth-world isn't. Kzinti were already loose. Can we kill them all? No.

Nov 10 15:41:48 <George_C> Notice that they were prepared to destroy the Gw'oth, but did not.

Nov 10 15:41:54 <Lensman> Ed: IIRC the Puppeteers had contemplated transferring their population to the Ringworld. From that perspective, they *needed* to smash the high-level civilization which existed there. Too much competition. Not to mention which, the Ringworld is a pretty fearsome thing.

Nov 10 15:42:13 <Dan> I think I'm with Ed here, toppling a civilization just to attempt to open up a new market? While they were leaving KS anyway? That's cold!

Nov 10 15:42:25 <George_C> They were not just protecting the Fleet, but the very fact of it's existence.

Nov 10 15:43:13 <EML> Larry -- do you recall how much detail Hindmost revealed about why the superconductor plague was released on Ringworld?

Nov 10 15:43:26 <George_C> The Concordance question may have been (or will be!): What's safer, the Fleet or the Ring?

Nov 10 15:44:18 <Lensman> Contrast what "Captain Kidd" claimed the Puppeteers did in "A Relic of the Empire". He claimed the Puppeteers just alerted Human authorities after the Pirates had discovered their world and plundered their ships. Should we assume everythink Kidd said was a lie? Wouldn't Puppeteers be more apt to hire mercenaries/bounty hunters to kill off the pirates before they could talk?

Nov 10 15:44:18 <Larry> Ed: No, I don't recall that. I'd have to reread some books.

Nov 10 15:45:17 <Larry> "Kidd" may have done some guessing.

Nov 10 15:45:50 <EML> General Products personnel offworld could have alerted human authorities to the piracy.

Nov 10 15:47:08 <Lensman> From RE chapter 16: "All right, Louis. It wasn't planned this way, and it happened before my time. We were searching for a way to expand our territory with minimal risk. The Outsiders sold us the location of the Ringworld." The Outsiders were cold, fragile beings who roamed throughout the galaxy in slower-than-light craft. They traded in knowledge. They might well have known of the Ringworld, and sold the information to puppeteers, but ... "Wait a minu

Nov 10 15:47:26 <George_C> I was relieved to note Nike and Nessus' reluctance to kill. BTW, may we assume the Hindmost in Ringworld was Nike?

Nov 10 15:48:27 <EML> I won't tell my wife whether Nike = Hindmost ...

Nov 10 15:48:51 <Larry> Ed, we are agreed, no? Nike became the Hindmost as seen in the Ringworld books.

Nov 10 15:49:07 <Lensman> Hmmm, my quote was cut off: But we analyzed Ringworld superconductors through laser spectroscopy. We made a bacterium that could feed on it. Probes seeded the superconductor plague across the Ringworld. You guessed as much?" "That much, yeah." "We were to follow with trading ships. Our traders would come opportunely to the rescue. They would learn all we needed to know, and gain allies too."

Nov 10 15:49:37 <EML> Larry: we're certainly free to have it turn out that way. I don't recall we ever decided it must be so.

Nov 10 15:49:45 <Lensman> LOL! I assumed Nike = RE's Hindmost, but Ed was being coy about it!

Nov 10 15:50:43 <EML> Now as to whether Hindmost always tells the truth, or the whole truth, or spins the truth ...

Nov 10 15:51:10 <George_C> The Ringworld, if anywhere near the path of the Fleet, is a horrific danger. Can it be destroyed without reprisal? No? How about neutralized?

Nov 10 15:51:26 <Dan> Spins it to his best advantage, or lies. Is there any doubt of that?

Nov 10 15:51:35 <George_C> No Citizen tells anyone the whole truth, nor is expected to, apparently.

Nov 10 15:51:43 <Larry> A reader must usually assume that the authors, at least, always tell the truth. (Barring Agatha Christie.)

Nov 10 15:52:13 <George_C> Even Nessus and Nike adapted their relationship, then put it on hold, to avoid complete honesty.

Nov 10 15:52:39 <EML> Recall in Ringworld how Nessus reveals secrets like the starseed lure ... very calculating.

Nov 10 15:52:54 <George_C> Indded.

Nov 10 15:53:05 <George_C> Indeed, too!

Nov 10 15:54:21 <EML> Authors should tell the truth when speaking in omnisicent POV. When speaking in character POV, the character's honesty (or lack thereof) plays a role.

Nov 10 15:54:41 <George_C> Just so.

Nov 10 15:54:48 <Lensman> But did he *mean* to tell Louis & Speaker about the lure, to see if they could reach the logical conclusion? Or did he let that slip? My re-reading of Rw following FOW was that Nessus was *very* loose-lipped when on the Ring. I put it down to stress. But it *could* have been some convoluted plot, I suppose.

Nov 10 15:55:20 <George_C> With Citizens, it always is, it seems.

Nov 10 15:55:40 <George_C> Some may become more open than others. Nessus has an affinity for humans . . .

Nov 10 15:55:59 <Lensman> Ed: Yes, but someone on the list actually claimed that Larry very rarely writes in actual third-person-omniscient, that most of it's internal dialog. Personally I think that's quite an overstatement.

Nov 10 15:56:50 <George_C> One wonders about the fate of New Terra . . . I know, I know, "Juggler"!

Nov 10 15:58:07 <Lensman> I note that in FOW it's stated the Companions don't survive the birth of a newborn Puppeteer. But it stops short of giving any gory details. Will there be more details about that forthcoming?

Nov 10 15:58:55 <EML> Puppeteer sex? Not a big part of Juggler.

Nov 10 15:59:24 <Larry> I've known details of Citizen sex for a long time.

Nov 10 15:59:54 <Larry> I've kept their secrets, if not well.

Nov 10 16:00:12 <Lensman> Ed: Well that touched on what you said, I think in last month's chat, that you and Larry worked out more details about the Puppeteers than were put into FOW. Is it possible for us to get a peek at your notes?

Nov 10 16:00:26 <George_C> I wonder where they keep the farms that breed Companions? On one of the farm worlds, or is that not safe enough? I suspect they'd rather keep that place out of sight, and out of mind.

Nov 10 16:00:58 <George_C> fascinating evolution they must have had . . !

Nov 10 16:01:36 <EML> I'm inclined to keep our working material for possible future use.

Nov 10 16:01:49 <Larry> Wherever Companions are bred, it would be insane to put them where they might be separated from the Citizens. Count on it. They're on Hearth.

Nov 10 16:01:54 <Lensman> George: Check out FOW p. 105.

Nov 10 16:03:15 <EML> Anyone mind if I ask a question (besides this one)?

Nov 10 16:03:26 <George_C> Those must be the most well-protected places on Hearth.

Nov 10 16:03:30 <Lensman> Please ask!

Nov 10 16:04:42 <EML> Various reviews have various lists of "read this first" before FLEET. I can understand perhaps reading Shaeffer stories first, but RINGWORLD first puzzles me.

Nov 10 16:05:07 <EML> Still, it's come up often enough, there may be something to it.

Nov 10 16:05:40 <Lensman> FOW has spoilers for Rw. The whole Fleet of Worlds thing and the visit to the surface of Hearth are rather spoilt if you've read FOW first.

Nov 10 16:05:43 <George_C> Well, we all read RW first, of course, and FOW is a sort of prequel . . .

Nov 10 16:06:04 <Dan> Some of those reviewers might not have read all of the KS stories, the way we have.

Nov 10 16:07:07 <George_C> Now, should one read all the RW books before FOW? I think not, but, yeah, I could see reading RW first.

Nov 10 16:07:28 <Lensman> Ed: But I think I know where you're coming from. I've looked at online reviews of various KS books online, and have been surprised that critics have taken the books to task for requiring the readers be familiar with previous works in the series. This is hardly unique for SF series!

Nov 10 16:08:22 <Lensman> I recommended in my review that readers read the /Neutron Star/ collection plus "The Borderland of Sol". Rw isn't necessary, agreed.

Nov 10 16:08:23 <EML> We may have skipped up on occasion, but we sure tried to make the book standalone.

Nov 10 16:09:16 <Lensman> I read Rw as my first Niven. It stands *quite* well on its own, altho on my website I do recommend first-time readers read the /Neutron Star/ collection first.

Nov 10 16:09:45 <Larry> Yes. "Fleet" was supposed to stand alone, as best we could make it do that.

Nov 10 16:10:45 <EML> Contrarian that I am, I think the KS stories can be read in almost any order ... and that no one order, neither publication order nor chronological order, is best.

Nov 10 16:10:54 <Lensman> Of course I can't really read FOW with "fresh" eyes, but it does seem to me a new reader can read FOW and not be confused.

Nov 10 16:11:15 <George_C> FOW certainly stands on it's own, but will also make one want to know more! I can see where FOW might be some new fans' first intro to KS.

Nov 10 16:11:33 <George_C> Like RW was for many of us.

Nov 10 16:12:29 <George_C> Lensman: Harem House on p.105 was for choosing and mating with Companions, but gave no clue as to what mating produced the Companions.

Nov 10 16:13:33 <Lensman> George: You were asking where the Companions were raised, if they were kept on the Farm Worlds. IIRC the passage about Harem House makes it clear they have their own enclaves where they live their entire lives.

Nov 10 16:14:13 <Larry> every story I write has been intended to stand alone for a new reader.

Nov 10 16:15:14 <George_C> I had thought the Companions were closely-related but seperate species. Perhaps the Citizens, like some terran animals and the Kzin, give birth to one male and one female/Companion . . .

Nov 10 16:15:38 <George_C> The male is raised as a Citizen, the female goes to a Harem House.

Nov 10 16:16:06 <EML> I choose not to say more about Citizen gender roles.

Nov 10 16:16:36 <George_C> Fair enough, Ed. But we, on the other hoof . . !

Nov 10 16:17:26 <EML> on the other HEAD ...

Nov 10 16:17:36 <EML> :-)

Nov 10 16:17:47 <George_C> The two males contribute their genetic material. Does it take two males and one female set of genes? Or does the female contribute anything? Thing about aliens is . . !

Nov 10 16:17:58 <George_C> :-)

Nov 10 16:18:39 <Lensman> Hindmost specifies in RE that the Companion contributes no genetic material. Unless he was lying, the Companions are indeed a separate (but closely-related) species.

Nov 10 16:19:21 <George_C> Ah. As I thought, then. We may learn more in the next book, or work it out on the list.

Nov 10 16:19:35 <Dan> Both.

Nov 10 16:19:52 <George_C> Enough of this smut talk! What would the authors like to discuss about FOW?

Nov 10 16:20:08 <George_C> BTW, I for one felt like cheering when the Colonists raided the breeding compound, and took everything.

Nov 10 16:20:35 <George_C> Scared the cat who was sleeping on me.

Nov 10 16:20:42 <Lensman> Yah, the end of FOW has some big-time "I'm proud to be a HUMAN!" moments. :)

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Nov 10 16:21:15 <EML> What do you all see as loose ends or insufficiently described detail that might be fodder for a future story?

Nov 10 16:21:54 <George_C> Nessus: "Perhaps minions could be put to GOOD use."

Nov 10 16:22:17 <jim_stiles> The love affair between Nike and Nessus?

Nov 10 16:22:56 <George_C> What happened with th Gw'oth in two hundred more years? They were apparentkly based on the Jotoki, but not.

Nov 10 16:23:05 <Lensman> I want to know more about Puppeteer breeding and family life! And I want to hear the Puppeteer side of "Captain Kidd" 's tale, unless "Kidd" made it up. And I want to know how the Puppeteers tracked the /Puppet Master/!

Nov 10 16:23:14 <George_C> Are we to believe they BECAME the Jotoki?

Nov 10 16:24:06 <Lensman> Thanks, George. Yes, are the Gw'oth related to the Jotaki? A long-lost colony, perhaps?

Nov 10 16:24:14 <EML> Gw'oth aren't meant to be Jotoki, despite some superficial resemblance. For one, Jotoki aren't marine creatures.

Nov 10 16:24:20 <George_C> Yeah, I'd like to know more about Citizen young and how they're raised.

Nov 10 16:24:56 <Lensman> "Aren't marine". Does that mean they're freshwater?

Nov 10 16:25:05 <EML> Hah!

Nov 10 16:25:29 <EML> Jotoki are air breathers. Gw'oth live under water.

Nov 10 16:25:49 <Larry> Gw'oth were evolved (by Ed) from first principles. They're not Jotoki. (which were also evolved from first principles, by Donald Kingsbury.)

Nov 10 16:25:58 <George_C> Exactly, Ed. Bit of a stretch to think the Gw'oth could become the Jotoki, but they're just too similar not to be related. TWO species based on five-part colony creatures?

Nov 10 16:26:22 <Lensman> Yah, okay. Altho tadpoles --> frogs...

Nov 10 16:27:17 <George_C> Okay, I give, the authors both say Gw'oth are not Jotoki, it's a done deal.

Nov 10 16:27:55 <EML> But I infer interest in Gw'oth, regardless of their (non)relatives. Fair?

Nov 10 16:28:06 <Lensman> IIRC "Fly-By-Night" says the Jotoki start out as independent critters living in the water. I guess like sea-snakes they're still air-breathers, tho.

Nov 10 16:28:28 <George_C> I did wonder if the Gw'oth, like the Jotoki, might become fearsome enough to warrant the Concordance cometary insurance policy.

Nov 10 16:28:58 <Lensman> Ed: Well you *did* leave a whopping big "TO BE CONTINUED" sign at the end of FOW regarding the Gw'oth, didn't you now??

Nov 10 16:29:21 <EML> X marks the spot, you mean?

Nov 10 16:29:27 <George_C> Ed: Fair enough! The Gw'oth are a fascinating idea.

Nov 10 16:29:27 <Lensman> Yup.

Nov 10 16:29:43 <Lensman> Ed: Yup.

Nov 10 16:30:54 <George_C> One must wonder why New Terra and the Gw'oth never appear in any Louis-Wu era KS stories . . . yet!

Nov 10 16:31:51 <Lensman> But yes, I'd like to know if Nike turns out to be RE's "Hindmost". After all, RE says he and Nessus mated a 2nd time "for love", and the romantic in me would like to think Nessus long campaign of romance ultimately succeeded.

Nov 10 16:32:10 <EML> We knew going in Louis Wu kenw nothing of the FLEET or New Terra. So it had to stay unfound.

Nov 10 16:32:52 <EML> My wife is rooting for those two crazy kids, too.

Nov 10 16:33:06 <Lensman> Point for George. Yah I'd say that's the #1 question... did New Terra ever discover Earth, or vice versa, and if so why/how did they keep it secret?

Nov 10 16:33:17 <George_C> Considering our own Solar System, I like the look at the life and tech of a species in the oceans under the frozen surface of a world.

Nov 10 16:34:09 <Lensman> Europa is probably the best hope for ET life in our solar system, yah.

Nov 10 16:34:22 <George_C> New Terra may be unfound, or found by one who has kept his mouth shut.

Nov 10 16:34:48 <Dan> Or found in a much later era.

Nov 10 16:35:20 <George_C> Europa, yes. And Larry is still showing us the odd pockets of the universe!

Nov 10 16:35:33 <Lensman> If it was discovered after the beginning of RE we wouldn't know about it, would we?

Nov 10 16:36:21 <Dan> It's even easier to argue about yet-to-be-written stories than it is to argue about old favorites.

Nov 10 16:36:21 <EML> Enceladus is another good prospect in this solar system.

Nov 10 16:37:58 <George_C> I'd like to see what good uses Nessus comes up with for his minions, helping to fix the chaos he caused on Earth.

Nov 10 16:38:59 <George_C> And, yes, the Puppeteers did apparently have their fingers, er, lips in the ARM!

Nov 10 16:39:15 <EML> very disarming, eh?

Nov 10 16:39:46 <George_C> Now: Do we call still call them Puppeteers, or Citizens? The latter is easier to type . . !

Nov 10 16:40:10 <EML> You'll see more about the ARM and minions in JUGGLER.

Nov 10 16:41:37 <George_C> Swwet!

Nov 10 16:42:04 <George_C> Sorry, can't get my lips to type -- I mean, fingers! Fingers!

Nov 10 16:44:12 <Dan> :)

Nov 10 16:44:34 <George_C> I suspect Juggler will answer many more questions. FOW dovetails very neatly with many aspects of KS. Must have been fun to write!

Nov 10 16:44:37 <Lensman> Well, it's said that the name of every primitive set of people for themselves translates to "People". I see "Citizens" as a mark of how insular the Puppeteers are.

Nov 10 16:44:46 <Dan> Try duct-taping one hand to your ribs, George.

Nov 10 16:45:17 <George_C> Dan: No thanks! Been there, done that.

Nov 10 16:45:17 <Lensman> I mean, how insular their society is.

Nov 10 16:46:03 <Dan> I keep hiting the Enter key with my pinkey finger when I'm actually reaching for the Shift key. :)

Nov 10 16:46:07 <George_C> The Trinocs are even worse than the Citizens.

Nov 10 16:46:28 <EML> George: Yup, I think you'll find many questions answered (and some new ones asked) in JUGGLER.

Nov 10 16:47:18 <George_C> Looking forward to it!

Nov 10 16:48:36 <EML> IIRC, we have seen very little of the Trinocs (outside the one appearance in "There Is a Tide." Any other major appearances?

Nov 10 16:48:59 <Dan> One mention in RW.

Nov 10 16:49:15 <Dan> at Louis' birthday party.

Nov 10 16:49:55 <George_C> I liked the insight into Ausfaller. Always liked his character.

Nov 10 16:51:35 <EML> Yes, Ausfaller is fun.

Nov 10 16:52:20 <George_C> He has more power and position than I would have thought they'd let him have.

Nov 10 16:53:27 <George_C> Apparently he is allowed to keep secrets even from the UN and the ARM. That has potential . . .

Nov 10 16:53:36 <EML> He, Sigmund? I hate to say this again but "It will be explained in ..."

Nov 10 16:53:54 <George_C> I know, I know! :-).

Nov 10 16:54:14 <Lensman> Siggy has always been one of my favorite characters, ever since "Neutron Star". I was very sorry to see him killed off in "Ghost". Ed had hinted that Siggy would be a character in FOW, I was disappointed that he's only seen offscreen.

Nov 10 16:54:28 <Larry> My problems with Trinocs are: they don't like being watched, and a paranoid species is too predictable. (Other authors have found otherwise. And see Smuggler for a paranoid society.)

Nov 10 16:54:40 <Lensman> I know, I know... wait for /Juggler/!

Nov 10 16:55:15 <Lensman> "Smuggler" ?

Nov 10 16:55:33 <Larry> Aye. Ausfaller is the main character in "Smuggler".

Nov 10 16:55:58 <Larry> Sorry, Ed. "Juggler."

Nov 10 16:56:59 <Lensman> Aha! Methinks Larry had a different name for JOW.

Nov 10 16:58:00 <EML> Hard to keep all those balls in the air ;-)

Nov 10 16:58:04 <Larry> It was always "Juggler", but now you've got me thinking. "Smuggler of Worlds?" How would anyone do that?

Nov 10 16:58:16 <Dan> OK Larry, now you and Ed have to write a short story called "Smuggler" featuring Sigmund, or else Lensman will burst out of frustration. :)

Nov 10 16:58:16 <EML> Really deep pockets.

Nov 10 16:58:26 <George_C> Between this discussion, and what is sure to come on the List, and the ones that will certainly follow Juggler, I would not be surprised to see a third book. Just sayin'.

Nov 10 16:58:40 <Lensman> LOL! Hmm... well there's the end of the movie "Men in Black"...

Nov 10 16:58:45 <EML> Recycler of Worlds?

Nov 10 16:59:12 <George_C> Snuggler of Worlds, starring Galactus?

Nov 10 16:59:34 <Dan> Nah, that sounds like porn.

Nov 10 17:00:20 <George_C> Smuggle a whole planet . . . highjack control of the world-motor?

Nov 10 17:00:26 <Lensman> Larry, it looks like you've retconned "deep radar" to use a neutrino pulse, instead of a hyperwave pulse. Would you care to comment on that?

Nov 10 17:01:51 <Larry> If I once thought it would be a hyperwave pulse, I don't recall. Neutrinos always seemed a need way to X-ray a moon or planet.

Nov 10 17:02:45 <jim_stiles> The mining industry has long sought out a way of making a neutrino radio.

Nov 10 17:02:54 <George_C> If you take control of the planet's motor, and redirect it, but no one knows you did, would that count as smuggling the planet?

Nov 10 17:02:55 <EML> It turned out some early stories were inconsistent on the technology underlying deep radar.

Nov 10 17:03:25 <Larry> ok.

Nov 10 17:03:34 <EML> Since some stories have deep radar before hyperdrive, it seemed cleanest to stick with neutrinos.

Nov 10 17:04:39 <George_C> Neutrino pulse makes slightly more sense than hyperwave pulse, but there could well be two technologies for the desired result.

Nov 10 17:04:47 <Larry> I should deal with domestic matters. Fare you all well.

Nov 10 17:05:00 <George_C> The idea being to detect stasis boxes.

Nov 10 17:05:03 <EML> By, Larry.

Nov 10 17:05:10 <George_C> Thanks for the time, Larry!

Nov 10 17:05:14 <jim_stiles> Bye, Larry.

Nov 10 17:05:36 <Dan> Bye, Larry.

Nov 10 17:05:40 * Larry has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Nov 10 17:06:04 <George_C> Okay, he's gone, spill it, Ed! :-)

Nov 10 17:06:41 <EML> oh, the pressure!!!!

Nov 10 17:06:58 <EML> And having said that ... spill WHAT?

Nov 10 17:07:59 <George_C> The plot for Juggler, of course! No, we don't really want to know. We love to speculate! It's what we do.

Nov 10 17:08:30 <George_C> Another cool thing in FOW: the altered human culture of the Colonists. A Citizen attempt at an acceptable human culture?

Nov 10 17:08:38 <Lensman> I was working on an article on hyperspace theory in KS. The idea that a hyperwave pulse could return useful information from inside a gravity well is hard to justify in light of the fact that hyperwave communicators can't operate inside a gravity well. Ed, is that what you mean by inconsistant? I thought perhaps Larry had deliberately ignored the previous mentions of hyperwave pulse used for deep radar, in "There Is a Tide" and IIRC in "The Soft Wea

Nov 10 17:10:21 <EML> Yes, TSW says deep radar uses hyperwave. OTOH, TIaT has Louis waiting for deep radar echoes, which implies not hyperwaves.

Nov 10 17:10:41 <Lensman> Good question, George. How much of Concordance Colonist culture is a result of Concordance meddling, and how much a result of the Colonists deliberatly mimicing their "benefactors"?

Nov 10 17:11:10 <EML> And in Flatlander, Elephant and Bey have to look around for the Outsiders, implying deep eradar is non-instantaneous.

Nov 10 17:11:12 <George_C> Good question back atcha. That had not occured to me.

Nov 10 17:12:34 <EML> Larry & I had in mind that Citizens imposed a culture like their own, tailored when they had to (as in nudity not working) or when the human elders successfully manipulated things.

Nov 10 17:12:43 <George_C> A hyperwave reveal of a stasis box might be very different than a neutrino reveal.

Nov 10 17:13:15 <George_C> Ed: Yeah, that was the impression I got, what with the missing words, like "war".

Nov 10 17:13:59 <George_C> I did wonder how they made nudity not work. It works in real life without affecting birth rates!

Nov 10 17:14:05 <Dan> Could "Deep Radar" be a generic name for tech that's evolved a lot over the years?

Nov 10 17:14:31 <George_C> Sure could. Happens all the time. Good point, Dan.

Nov 10 17:14:38 <Lensman> "Nothing but stars and stasis boxes were dense enough to show black in the reflection of a hyperwave pulse" ("There Is a Tide", /Tales of Known Space/ p. 203).

Nov 10 17:15:04 <Lensman> I assumed the delay in "Tide" was computer processing.

Nov 10 17:15:34 <George_C> Why would the Citizens want nudity to be a human taboo? They wear little enough themselves!

Nov 10 17:16:17 <Lensman> George: Yah, clearly that's not Citizen influence.

Nov 10 17:17:46 <EML> Citizens saw no need to waste resources on clothing ... but it messed up their attempts to control the bloodlines. (See end of chapter 36.)

Nov 10 17:18:00 <George_C> "reflection of a hyperwave pulse". This implies a hyperwave pulse reflects off things in normal space different ways. So would neutrinos, and without needing hyperwave tech.

Nov 10 17:19:19 <Lensman> "Flatlander": "I dropped out of hyperspace and set the deep-radar to hunt out the Outsider. [paragraph] The Outsider found us first."

Nov 10 17:19:25 <George_C> Ed: That's what I don't get. The implication is that nudity led to more mating. Well, maybe; you guys know that culture better than we do!

Nov 10 17:20:19 <Lensman> It did occur to me at one point to wonder if deep-radar could be made directional? If you're scanning space with a narrow beam, that might explain how the Outsiders found and approached the /Slower than Infinity/ before it finished its radar sweep.

Nov 10 17:20:38 <George_C> Point being, a culture may develop neutrino-type deep radar then improve it with hyperwave, but keep the name, as Dan suggested.

Nov 10 17:21:07 <Dan> And different ships would upgrade as budgets allowed.

Nov 10 17:21:18 <EML> This is an immature society (figuratively and literally) -- yes, the teenagers would be a bit difficult to control. And if there's no birth control, bacsue there are pairings the Citizens want to succeed ...

Nov 10 17:21:28 <Lensman> Well it makes more *sense* to me if deep-radar uses neutrinos instead of hyperwave pulse, but then we have the continuity problem to deal with.

Nov 10 17:21:57 <Dan> Some would still have the old system long after others had the latest gadgest.

Nov 10 17:22:04 <George_C> Just so, Dan. And either way, neutrino or hyperwave, I would think it would be directional. A wide beam, perhaps, but not in all directions at once.

Nov 10 17:22:36 <Lensman> I have no problem with the term "deep-radar" being used for different things. In fact, the term is also used in /World of Ptavvs/, clearly for a different technology.

Nov 10 17:22:59 <George_C> Good point, Ed. With no long-term cultural foundation, things might well get out of hand sexually.

Nov 10 17:23:46 <EML> fwiw, FLEET and JUGGLER use neutrinos for deep radar.

Nov 10 17:24:35 <Lensman> Ed: Yes, I noticed FOW was using neutrinos. That's why I brought the subject up. You said you thought earlier stories were inconsistant; would you care to expand on that?

Nov 10 17:25:31 <EML> I interspersed some comments above. To summarize. TSW said: hyperwave. TIaT said: takes time to get a return. Flatlander said: it takes time to get a return.

Nov 10 17:25:52 <Lensman> -k-

Nov 10 17:27:08 <George_C> Neutrinos may offer more info, while hyperwave may offer a quicker return. If neutrinos are quick enough, more info is better.

Nov 10 17:27:40 <George_C> Either will reveal you to those in the area, as noted in FOW.

Nov 10 17:27:59 <George_C> Hence the Scout Program.

Nov 10 17:28:18 <Lensman> Ed, I don't quite understand what the reference to the British East India Company means. Perhaps that's because I don't know enough about the actions of that company. Would you care to speak on that point?

Nov 10 17:28:19 <George_C> And now New Terra IS the Scout Program . . !

Nov 10 17:28:39 <EML> Neutrinos are light-speed. If you want to probe from outside the singularity, you can wait hours or days for a return.

Nov 10 17:29:06 <George_C> Exactly. Hyperwave would be instant. Why not use both?

On to Part 2