Chat Log: December 4th, 2010

[07:36] Akiraa has joined #knownspace
[08:58] Akiraa has joined #knownspace
[10:52] #knownspace> SeanS: No, Eddy is a real guy in Australia.
[12:58] Lensman has joined #knownspace
[13:37] conquerat has joined #knownspace
[13:38] #knownspace> conquerat: lensman! :)
[13:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Hello!
[13:38] #knownspace> conquerat: How are you?
[13:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Do I know you?
[13:38] #knownspace> Lensman: I am fine today.
[13:38] #knownspace> conquerat: no, but I've read the chat logs
[13:38] #knownspace> Lensman: But may not be here long. I have Laser Rangers today.
[13:38] #knownspace> conquerat: and you seem to be active
[13:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Welcome to the Niven chat, then!
[13:39] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL
[13:39] #knownspace> Lensman: You could say that.
[13:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Have you seen my website?
[13:39] #knownspace> conquerat: hooray! I've never been here when it was actually chatting
[13:39] #knownspace> conquerat: send me the link
[13:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Chat is the first Saturday of the month. Doesn't the site for the chat say that?
[13:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Won't official start for another 81 minutes, tho.
[13:40] #knownspace> conquerat: that specifies niven EML chat
[13:40] #knownspace> conquerat: I figured us plebes could be here anytime
[13:40] #knownspace> Lensman:
[13:40] #knownspace> conquerat: sweet, I'll check it out
[13:41] #knownspace> conquerat: I frequent incompleat known space
[13:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Then you've visited it.
[13:41] #knownspace> SeanS: says: There are usually a few of us on at any given time. The first Saturday of each month is Larry Niven chat time.
[13:41] #knownspace> conquerat: hello Sean
[13:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Sean!
[13:41] #knownspace> conquerat: i want to discuss the book
[13:41] #knownspace> conquerat: I was a little disappointed...
[13:42] #knownspace> SeanS: I have the book but have not had a chance to get started
[13:42] #knownspace> conquerat: nuts
[13:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Betrayer of Worlds?
[13:42] #knownspace> conquerat: que sera sera
[13:42] #knownspace> conquerat: yes
[13:42] #knownspace> conquerat: I liked the first 3
[13:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, that's the problem, we can't really discuss books when they are new because we don't want to do spoilers for those who have not read them.
[13:43] #knownspace> conquerat: i thought more should have been done with the Pak protector captive, but I liked it overall
[13:43] #knownspace> Lensman: I did set up a dedicated chat for FOW a few months after it came out, but we haven't done that for the others.
[13:43] #knownspace> conquerat: LOL i finished it the first night
[13:43] #knownspace> SeanS: My gf gave it to me on my birthday last saturday and I have been very busy the last week
[13:43] #knownspace> conquerat: I've been reading Niven since people thought life was on Mars
[13:44] #knownspace> conquerat: except the stand alone ones
[13:44] #knownspace> Lensman: I enjoyed FOW quite a bit. The others... not so much. The last ones had a shocking number of continuity errors. I'm not pleased with that at all.
[13:45] #knownspace> conquerat: Chalk it up to people change. Niven cant possibly write the same way in one year as he did in a previous year.
[13:45] #knownspace> Lensman: In fact, Jon Aaron, who has constructed a detailed timeline of KS, and with whom I correspond with regularly, is planning on separating the OF WORLDs books out and treating them as a separate series.
[13:45] #knownspace> conquerat: the inspiration is gone, the mood has changed
[13:45] #knownspace> conquerat: I do
[13:45] #knownspace> conquerat: It's like the star trek reboot
[13:45] #knownspace> conquerat: a separate universe
[13:45] #knownspace> conquerat: I liked the idea of bey being 'retired'
[13:46] #knownspace> Lensman: I confess it took me two days to read BOW.
[13:46] #knownspace> SeanS: Juggler has been my favorite so far. Was interesting to see so many familiar stories from a different perspective.
[13:46] #knownspace> conquerat: It's not as "deep" as the other KS books
[13:46] #knownspace> conquerat: the Fleet series seems lighter
[13:47] #knownspace> conquerat: Even his short stories from the 70s are deeper
[13:47] #knownspace> conquerat: I like the Monks
[13:47] #knownspace> conquerat: i want to now more about them
[13:47] #knownspace> conquerat: or One Face
[13:47] #knownspace> conquerat: what happened to them?
[13:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I have to decide for my Concordance if I really want to try to reconcile them, include them in canon or not. I really hate the idea of rejecting them, but it sure would be easier to do so. I was fine with the retcons in FOW, some were pretty clever. But the succeeding books have not been so carefully fitted to what we already knew.
[13:48] #knownspace> conquerat: Except that it's all lies...
[13:48] #knownspace> conquerat: Even the Bey stories were told through a "ghostwriter" so they're secondhand and third hand by the time they get to us
[13:48] #knownspace> conquerat: I dont like Teela Brown changing
[13:49] #knownspace> conquerat: I was satisfied with Throne
[13:49] #knownspace> conquerat: but not Children
[13:49] #knownspace> Lensman: It's normal for writers to change as they get older. They lose freshness, but gain polish. The thing I miss most about Larry's early stories is the humor. Since he started collaborating with Pournelle, he's taken a much more serious tone towards his writing.
[13:49] #knownspace> conquerat: He quit smoking and drinking
[13:49] #knownspace> conquerat: every story involved smoking 7 alcohol but now is about cooking
[13:50] #knownspace> conquerat: i dont remember where he wrote that he quit smoking, but it explains a lot
[13:50] #knownspace> SeanS: after smoke ring
[13:50] #knownspace> conquerat: PLUS he got real serious when Reagan hired him for SDI
[13:50] #knownspace> conquerat: and again when he wrote essays for NASA
[13:50] #knownspace> conquerat: I think he got disillusioned
[13:50] #knownspace> Lensman: I also thought the yet-another-retcon of Teela's story in RC was unnecessary and... well, I prefer the retcon of Throne too.
[13:51] #knownspace> conquerat: I really liked the second half of throne
[13:52] #knownspace> conquerat: I would like him to finish his State series
[13:52] #knownspace> SeanS: i keep asking for more smoke ring and he keeps saying he is done with it
[13:52] #knownspace> conquerat: would be interesting if Kendy went back to Earth and found Corbell
[13:52] #knownspace> Lensman: All the cooking in DESTINY'S ROAD really bored me. I started skimming after awhile. But it's not as bad as the biology or the, um, rather improbable plot devices. I guess I'm the only Niven fan who did not care for that book!
[13:52] #knownspace> conquerat: I never read it
[13:53] #knownspace> conquerat: I like his alternate universe near future earth from his short stories and KS
[13:53] #knownspace> conquerat: it's funny to re read the short stories and remember that people used to have to dial phones and find phone booths
[13:53] #knownspace> conquerat: Almost like reading Mike Hammer stories
[13:54] NickE has joined #knownspace
[13:54] #knownspace> conquerat: Hello Nick!
[13:54] #knownspace> SeanS: Hey Nick... long time no type. ;)
[13:54] #knownspace> NickE: Yo peeps
[13:54] #knownspace> Lensman: THRONE would certainly have been better if Niven hadn't shoe-horned a previously published novlet, "Song of the Night People", into the book. But even then, the main plot was a fight between protectors to see who would rule the Repair Center. Do we really care?
[13:54] #knownspace> Lensman: "The way the future was."
[13:55] #knownspace> conquerat: I think Louis should have stayed protector and conquered earth
[13:55] #knownspace> Lensman: I find it jarring to frex read in "Fly-By-Night" that they're using e-mail. That just doesn't fit with stories in which they are using "tape" for data storage!
[13:55] #knownspace> NickE: Tell you what, using Sean and Neil's flash irc thingy is way quicker than teh java aplet
[13:55] #knownspace> conquerat: I'm waiting to see if in Fleet 5 they do confirm a human protector in charge of the UN
[13:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Now, the "dialing" doesn't necessarily mean there is actually a dial. Like dialing a modern phone, it could refer to just entering a set of numbers.
[13:56] #knownspace> SeanS: The eris flash client is pretty good.
[13:56] #knownspace> conquerat: lol yes Lensman, tech has moved too fast for all of us
[13:56] #knownspace> conquerat: I'm using eris
[13:57] #knownspace> NickE: tell me about it 9tech :-)
[13:57] #knownspace> SeanS: .weather 40601
[13:57] #knownspace> Outsider: Overcast ☁, 33.8℉ (1℃), 29.86in (1008mb), Mist, Light breeze 4kt (↑) - KLOU, 13:53, 1853Z
[13:57] #knownspace> conquerat: I dont actually remember rotary dials in phone booths, but it's fun to think they're in Niven's universe since everything has changed so completely in 30 years
[13:57] #knownspace> Lensman: I highly recommend Chatzilla for those who use FireFox. The only bad thing is it doesn't keep *all* the chat, the older posts disappear eventually. So you can't scroll back to the beginning after a few hours.
[13:57] #knownspace> SeanS: i remember rotary phones
[13:58] #knownspace> NickE: me too
[13:58] #knownspace> Akiraa: you can use xchat 2 for windows
[13:58] #knownspace> SeanS: I use xchat here. linux version
[13:59] #knownspace> Lensman: And in RINGWORLD'S CHILDREN Louis describes our galaxy as a barred spiral. WTF? Bey certainly didn't see a bar at the center of the galaxy in "At the Core"! I realize Niven wants to keep the science current in his stories, but I think established facts should remain established.
[14:00] #knownspace> Lensman: If you don't remember rotary phones, you're just a spring chicken! Are you over 40?
[14:00] #knownspace> NickE: yeah. Trouble is as readers over, what 30 years in my case, we tend to notice stuff like that
[14:00] #knownspace> conquerat: just at 40, I remember rotary dials, just not in phone booths
[14:00] #knownspace> NickE: Oh I do
[14:00] #knownspace> SeanS: Same herer
[14:00] #knownspace> NickE: 46 in case anyones asking :-)
[14:01] #knownspace> Akiraa: they still sell nostalgia rotaries (with separate bits ear and speaking), 1900 style
[14:01] #knownspace> Lensman: I actually saw an honest-to-gosh wooden phone booth during a hotel tour here in K.C. It was in an out-of-the-way place, though.
[14:01] #knownspace> Lensman: I mean, saw it *recently*.
[14:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: nostalgia cases, but with full digital innards, even VoIP
[14:02] #knownspace> Lensman: 55 here.
[14:03] #knownspace> Lensman: It was an area of the hotel which had been preserved in its original appearance. The wood was polished and beautiful, not scratched and scarred, obviously lovingly maintained.
[14:05] #knownspace> conquerat: like the Long Spoon
[14:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Note in Rw, Nessus dials a number too fast for Louis to get the number. This suggests to me that it's *not* a rotary dial, but push buttons.
[14:05] #knownspace> NickE: Still see old red iron phone boxs here in some places (usually villages where the booth is a listed building!
[14:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Nick, are you in the UK?
[14:06] #knownspace> Lensman: What is "Long Spoon" ?
[14:06] #knownspace> NickE: yep
[14:06] #knownspace> NickE: bar in the 4th profession
[14:07] #knownspace> SeanS: I know of 1 phone booth it town and it is outside of the door of the main utility here. (water, power, internet, phone)
[14:07] #knownspace> NickE: "if you sup with teh Devil, use a long spoon"
[14:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Wow, and I've re-read that several times! Two demerits for Lensman.
[14:07] #knownspace> conquerat: i think it refers to the stirring spoon for irish coffee Niven used to drink
[14:07] #knownspace> NickE: probably
[14:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Sounds right, conquerat
[14:08] #knownspace> conquerat: but i guess the Monks are devilish
[14:08] #knownspace> NickE: but the quote - I jave no ida where from - is real
[14:08] #knownspace> conquerat: I like his fantasy works too
[14:08] #knownspace> conquerat: much better than Dragonlance! LOL
[14:09] #knownspace> NickE: Thats Tracy Hickman right?
[14:09] #knownspace> SeanS: Weiss and Hickman I think
[14:10] #knownspace> conquerat: not anymore
[14:10] #knownspace> conquerat: the originals were
[14:10] #knownspace> conquerat: but any hack writes for D&D now
[14:10] #knownspace> NickE: ah. Not that I've read them. Tracy was on The Signal crew at onbe point though
[14:11] #knownspace> NickE: (podcast I do. This was before my time on it tho)
[14:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Googling the phrase... variations of that appear in Shakespeare, but apparently he was referring to an older proverb. Not biblical, apparently.
[14:12] #knownspace> SeanS: hey, Nick, what time is it there?
[14:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Dragonlance books are like Star Trek books, I think. "Sharecropper" writing, you generally don't get top-notch author talent that way.
[14:12] #knownspace> conquerat: I've only read a few ST books
[14:12] #knownspace> conquerat: one stole wireheading from Niven
[14:12] #knownspace> conquerat: "Joy Machine"
[14:13] #knownspace> conquerat: classic Kirk-as-computer killer
[14:13] #knownspace> conquerat: the only one I really liked was when Kirk had to fight evolved dinos from stopping the dino extinction on earth
[14:14] #knownspace> conquerat: turned out to be a tie in to a Voyager ep though
[14:14] #knownspace> SeanS: I saw the ep but didnt read the book
[14:14] #knownspace> Lensman: I've enjoyed some ST books, and read some that were truly abysmal. Haven't read all that many.
[14:14] #knownspace> conquerat: most are abysimanl LOL :)
[14:14] #knownspace> conquerat: read the wrong one, and it will put you off all others
[14:15] #knownspace> conquerat: I never finished a non KS Niven book
[14:15] #knownspace> conquerat: except Rainbow mars
[14:15] #knownspace> SeanS: if you stick to Peter David and (dang, girls name not coming to me) you cant go wrong
[14:15] #knownspace> SeanS: diane
[14:15] #knownspace> conquerat: Vlonda
[14:15] #knownspace> conquerat: her too
[14:15] #knownspace> Lensman: THE JOY MACHINE was one of the worst. Gun should stick to academia. He had Kirk as an intellectual, and completely missed on the character of Spock!
[14:16] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[14:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Er, James Gunn should stick to academia.
[14:17] #knownspace> Lensman: conquerat: What, never? Except RAINBOW MARS, which was a lesser effort? Hie thee hence to a used bookstore and pick up THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE, LUCIFER'S HAMMER and A WORLD OUT OF TIME!
[14:18] #knownspace> SeanS: 3 good ones
[14:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Diane Duane?
[14:19] #knownspace> conquerat: WOTT is State series
[14:19] #knownspace> conquerat: I have that and both smoke ring books
[14:19] #knownspace> Lensman: WOOT
[14:19] #knownspace> conquerat: I was disappoined by kitemen
[14:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Have you read them?
[14:19] #knownspace> conquerat: lol
[14:19] #knownspace> conquerat: yes
[14:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Woot! It's WOOT! :)
[14:20] #knownspace> SeanS: crossover by friedman is a fun star trek read
[14:20] #knownspace> conquerat: but that's still not like his other books
[14:20] #knownspace> conquerat: it may not be KS, but it has a similar feel
[14:20] #knownspace> conquerat: what's with all the sex anyway?
[14:20] #knownspace> conquerat: not as bad as Hienlien, but still
[14:21] #knownspace> conquerat: Azimov never had gratuitous sex
[14:21] #knownspace> SeanS: diane duane is who i was thinking of, Lensman
[14:22] #knownspace> Lensman: I enjoyed THE SMOKE RING. A very enjoyable read. Most of Niven's best works are shorter stories, his novels... I dunno, are not paced right for a novel or are too episodic. But TSM read like a novel *should* read. But I confess I have not re-read it, so perhaps it's not that compelling despite its good structure.
[14:23] #knownspace> conquerat: Like all Niven stories, he starts a problem but leaves it for others to figure out. Something he transferrs to Louis Wu
[14:23] #knownspace> conquerat: Smoke Ring opens up a whole new really cool universe, but then he abandons it
[14:23] #knownspace> conquerat: Integral trees
[14:23] #knownspace> conquerat: sorry
[14:23] bandersnatch has joined #knownspace
[14:23] #knownspace> conquerat: smoke ring is the seqeul
[14:23] #knownspace> conquerat: sequel
[14:24] #knownspace> conquerat: Hello Bandersnatch!
[14:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Asimov never had gratuitous sex? You have not read THE ROBOTS OF DAWN, have you? He was making up for lost time there, after writing for near-Puritan magazines and book editors.
[14:24] #knownspace> conquerat: No, no
[14:24] #knownspace> bandersnatch: Hi all around ;-)
[14:24] #knownspace> conquerat: Azimov admits he did not write sex because he didnt like to
[14:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Yah, THE SMOKE RING is the sequel to THE INTEGRAL TREES.
[14:24] #knownspace> conquerat: in GOLD
[14:24] #knownspace> conquerat: in one of the essays
[14:24] #knownspace> conquerat: he thinks its better imagined
[14:24] #knownspace> conquerat: or he did...
[14:25] #knownspace> Lensman: All the sex? Who, Niven?
[14:25] #knownspace> conquerat: I havent read Azimov in at least 10 years so I may be a little fuzzy
[14:25] #knownspace> conquerat: all sci fi writers
[14:25] #knownspace> Lensman: No, LITTLE FUZZY is by Piper. :)
[14:25] #knownspace> conquerat: Zelazney, Heinlein, all them
[14:27] #knownspace> Lensman: With Heinlein, I think it's a personal obsession. He was a notorious fan of strippers.
[14:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry? Well, frankly I dunno. I think there was some degree of writers during the sixties exploring the new-found ability to write more explicitly than had been allowed when they were growing up. But I wonder if perhaps for Niven it's also an indication of the Southern California lifestyle on him. Cultural movements start in California, specifically Southern California, and I presume the...
[14:29] #knownspace> Lensman: ..."free love" movement of the Sixties started there.
[14:30] #knownspace> conquerat: with Niven it was all about losing virginity
[14:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Guess I haven't read enuff Zelazny to know about the sex. I don't recall any in the "Amber" series. Haven't read much else by that author.
[14:30] #knownspace> conquerat: Integral trees, smoke ring...
[14:30] #knownspace> conquerat: The last think he wrote was all about sex
[14:30] #knownspace> conquerat: the one that lady had to finish for him
[14:30] #knownspace> conquerat: Vitru & verite
[14:30] #knownspace> conquerat: something about death and a bay
[14:30] #knownspace> conquerat: baby
[14:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Zelazny?
[14:31] #knownspace> conquerat: donnerjack
[14:31] #knownspace> conquerat: yeah
[14:34] nedry has joined #knownspace
[14:34] #knownspace> NickE: Hi MArk
[14:34] #knownspace> conquerat: ahoy nedry1
[14:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Mark. I guess it's too late now to hope for the revamped Concordance site this year. I hope we can get to that early next year.
[14:35] #knownspace> conquerat: I dont know about free love, it's always cost me something ;)
[14:35] #knownspace> Lensman: :)
[14:37] #knownspace> bandersnatch: Most disturbing stuff in that direction was Chton ( Piers Antony )
[14:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Have not read that.
[14:37] #knownspace> NickE: not red that one
[14:37] #knownspace> NickE: or read
[14:38] #knownspace> SeanS: Chton was interesting
[14:38] #knownspace> bandersnatch: read it with 14/15, well beyond my experice at the time
[14:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Heinlein's THE DOOR INTO SUMMER was a bit creepy at having an older man romantically involved with a 12 year old, but I love the book despite that. It's one of my favorite Heinleins, and it's not about sex. Just love.
[14:39] #knownspace> SeanS: it was loosely turned into a Traveler (RPG) adventure
[14:39] #knownspace> NickE: yeah, I read some very explicit stuff that showed up in various crap SF (I wsnt choosy about what I bought in 2nd had bookshops, if it said SF I bought it. Boy were there some stinkers :-)
[14:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Interesting to see all the influences on Traveler. Piper's Terro-Human Future History seems to have been a major influence.
[14:40] #knownspace> conquerat: Logan's Run
[14:40] #knownspace> conquerat: the novel is all about sex
[14:40] #knownspace> conquerat: the movie is much much better
[14:41] #knownspace> NickE: Funny, while I quit like the flm, I liked the novels better
[14:41] #knownspace> NickE: YMMV
[14:41] #knownspace> Lensman: It astounds me that Nolan has managed to turn a mediocre, lightweight SF novel into an entire career. Well, I guess that just proves you can't aim too low when aiming at the mass market.
[14:41] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[14:42] #knownspace> NickE: Oh it's not great SF, but I found it enjoyable
[14:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Sorry Nick, I didn't see your post before I posted that. I would have been more circumspect.
[14:42] #knownspace> NickE: the TV series was fairly shite tho
[14:42] #knownspace> bandersnatch: you can write Couhrts Mahler stuff in any genre.
[14:43] #knownspace> NickE: np
[14:43] #knownspace> Lensman: The movie "Logan's Run" is certainly very popular with fans of a certain age. I guess I was just a bit too old for that when it came out.
[14:44] #knownspace> conquerat: we're all up for renewal LOL :)
[14:44] #knownspace> NickE: gotta go eat. Back in a bit
[14:44] #knownspace> conquerat: but as an under 30, killing all over 30s aint a bad idea ;)
[14:44] #knownspace> nedry: hi nick, lensman#
[14:44] #knownspace> conquerat: now I'd be dead LOL
[14:44] #knownspace> Lensman: In the novel the cutoff age was 20. They changed it for the movie so they could use older actors.
[14:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Mark!
[14:45] #knownspace> nedry: i've got a bunch of william nolan around here
[14:45] #knownspace> nedry: it's all very weird
[14:45] #knownspace> conquerat: yeah but it makes more sense
[14:45] #knownspace> conquerat: 21 is too young
[14:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Can you see our posts, Mark?
[14:45] #knownspace> conquerat: wouldnt have had enough pregnancies
[14:45] #knownspace> nedry: also wasn't one big city as I remember in the novel
[14:45] #knownspace> nedry: they went running all over the darn place
[14:45] #knownspace> nedry: under the sea...
[14:46] #knownspace> conquerat: in the novel its an entire world, post apocalypse
[14:46] #knownspace> conquerat: space
[14:46] #knownspace> nedry: it's been ages
[14:46] #knownspace> conquerat: lots of places
[14:46] #knownspace> conquerat: ice places
[14:46] #knownspace> conquerat: deserts
[14:46] #knownspace> conquerat: the movie makes the most sense
[14:46] #knownspace> nedry: yeah
[14:46] #knownspace> nedry: i don't think making sense was a priority for william nolan
[14:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Maximum female fertility is at about 22, so yeah that would reduce the birthrate. But maybe that's what was needed to keep the population from growing?
[14:46] #knownspace> conquerat: anyone ever play "paranoia" in high school?
[14:46] #knownspace> nedry: aye
[14:47] #knownspace> nedry: i've played paranoia more recently than that
[14:47] #knownspace> nedry: i played it about 2 years ago
[14:47] #knownspace> conquerat: killing the older population is what kept it down
[14:47] #knownspace> conquerat: LOL right on ned :)
[14:47] #knownspace> conquerat: Niven should institute that into the UN on earth
[14:47] #knownspace> nedry: we used to have gaming night here every wed
[14:47] #knownspace> conquerat: 18 billion?
[14:47] #knownspace> conquerat: what do they eat? soylent green?
[14:47] #knownspace> conquerat: I havent played Paranoia in years
[14:48] #knownspace> Lensman: I played it at the Campbell Conference a few years ago. And to shamelessly namedrop, I played it with Vernor Vinge! He was terrible at it... he's no good at all at "reading" people.
[14:48] #knownspace> conquerat: If niven would use the "Niven Engine" from World, he could move Venus to mars' orbit and use it as the Human farm world
[14:49] #knownspace> conquerat: in Paranoia you're supposed to kill everyone
[14:49] #knownspace> nedry: i have to go clean the refigerator, put away laundry, clean the kitchen, do the dishes... sigh
[14:49] #knownspace> conquerat: and convince the computr to promote you
[14:49] Jim has joined #knownspace
[14:50] #knownspace> Jim: anyone home
[14:50] #knownspace> SeanS: yeppers
[14:50] #knownspace> nedry: we're here
[14:50] #knownspace> SeanS: lively conversation
[14:50] #knownspace> conquerat: yea :)
[14:50] #knownspace> nedry: doctor who on in the background arc of infinity. colin baker is about to shoot his predicessor... peter davison
[14:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, this is one of the best conversations in a long time!
[14:51] #knownspace> conquerat: oh?
[14:51] #knownspace> conquerat: what channel is that on?
[14:51] #knownspace> nedry: my hard drive
[14:51] #knownspace> conquerat: I only liked Chris Eccs doctor
[14:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Niven's take on longevity seems to me to be an expression of the author's desire to live forever. It's not just Boosterspice in KS, it's the entire plot of WOOT.
[14:51] #knownspace> conquerat: Is that a game?
[14:51] #knownspace> conquerat: I liked WOOT
[14:51] #knownspace> conquerat: I wish he'd finish it
[14:51] #knownspace> nedry: i think Chris was very very good at it. I like the new guy as well. I don't like Tennant that much
[14:51] #knownspace> conquerat: I hated tennant
[14:52] #knownspace> conquerat: but other people liked him
[14:52] #knownspace> Lensman: WOOT is on my list of 10 favorite Niven stories. I have re-read it many times.
[14:52] #knownspace> conquerat: Saw the new guy on Craig ferg
[14:52] #knownspace> conquerat: may startwatching who again
[14:52] #knownspace> nedry: peter davison was pretty good, but it was after John Nathan Turner took over and messed up the show
[14:52] #knownspace> nedry: IMHO, the last season is the best they've had in ages
[14:53] #knownspace> Lensman: You think WOOT needs a sequel? I think it's fine on its own. A sequel wouldn't have nearly as much to say.
[14:53] #knownspace> conquerat: WOOT is the only novel he has that compares to Ringworld
[14:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Writing on Dr Who is too erratic for my taste. I've seen a couple of really terrific episodes, but most of 'em leave me thinking "Meh."
[14:54] #knownspace> conquerat: and he had lots to say about that until he hopped it away like a bunny
[14:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Not sure what you mean by "comparable" to Rw. I think MOTE is comparable to the *quality* of Rw.
[14:56] #knownspace> nedry: yeah, but the guy who wrote the best episodes is now the show runner
[14:56] #knownspace> bandersnatch: I found WOOT to be a rather disjunct work. Interesting pieces, segments, but it never appeared as a homgenous work ( to me )
[14:56] #knownspace> conquerat: not quality, depth,
[14:57] #knownspace> SeanS: it was a short story first
[14:57] #knownspace> conquerat: because it was writen as episodes and it all takes place in different times and places
[14:57] dmac44 has joined #knownspace
[14:57] #knownspace> SeanS: pretty much 2 stories tied together
[14:57] #knownspace> conquerat: 3 or 4 stories
[14:57] #knownspace> Lensman: I have read very few, if any, stories to match the awesome sense-of-wonder of Rw, though. By *any* author.
[14:57] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi
[14:57] #knownspace> conquerat: the only constant is corbell
[14:57] #knownspace> conquerat: hi dmac
[14:57] #knownspace> nedry: off to do cleaning up... be back later...
[14:58] #knownspace> conquerat: adios ned!
[14:58] #knownspace> Lensman: WOOT is indeed disjointed. I love it despite its flaws, not because of them.
[14:58] #knownspace> Jim: Is WOOT currently available in MMPB?
[14:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: There is always
[14:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye Mark.
[14:59] #knownspace> dmac44: is also a good site for used books
[15:00] #knownspace> Lensman: WOOT is a fix-up of three stories: "Rammer", "Down and Out", and "Children of the State". The first two are the first and second chapters of WOOT.
[15:00] #knownspace> conquerat: I dont see WOOT as flawed
[15:00] #knownspace> Jim: Now is our official start time.
[15:00] #knownspace> conquerat: it needs to be disjoined to fit the story
[15:00] #knownspace> nedry: loads on abe books
[15:00] #knownspace> Lensman: So it is.
[15:00] #knownspace> conquerat: Corbell has separate adventures but is one character
[15:01] #knownspace> Lensman: uses multiple search sites including Abe Books.
[15:03] #knownspace> conquerat: What bookcan we talk about?
[15:03] #knownspace> Jim: Is there a Kindle version; I will have to look.
[15:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Not many rules here, conquerat. Talk about what you like.
[15:04] #knownspace> Jim: World Out Of Time: WOOT
[15:04] #knownspace> SeanS: anything but betrayer... I have a copy but have not started it yet.
[15:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Or dislike. ;)
[15:05] #knownspace> conquerat: I have so many problems with Betrayer
[15:05] #knownspace> conquerat: Also, I'd like to slap some of Niven's long ago editors
[15:05] #knownspace> conquerat: for misspellings
[15:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, unfortunately BOW is off-limits.
[15:05] #knownspace> conquerat: and bad fact checking
[15:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Several of us have suggested to Ed that he send around the manuscripts to a very select few rabid Niven fans to check for continuity/fact errors, but he's having none of it.
[15:06] #knownspace> SeanS: January 1st, Betrayer will be fair game
[15:06] #knownspace> dmac44: Worst editing was on The Gripping Hand
[15:06] #knownspace> Jim: Was WOOT a libertarian story?
[15:06] #knownspace> conquerat: lol
[15:06] #knownspace> conquerat: oh dear
[15:07] #knownspace> conquerat: an Ayn Rand fan?
[15:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Has Niven ever written a story that was *not* a small-l libertarian story?
[15:07] #knownspace> Jim: yes, so what
[15:07] #knownspace> conquerat: Ayn Rand was anti communist because she escaped Russia during the revolution
[15:07] #knownspace> conquerat: Niven was born rich, no surprise there
[15:07] #knownspace> conquerat: he's never been hungry
[15:08] #knownspace> Jim: conquerat: that is unfair
[15:08] #knownspace> Lensman: "If you've never been willing to kill for a can of tomatoes, then you've never been hungry." --Robert Heinlein.
[15:08] #knownspace> Lensman: I've never been hungry.
[15:08] #knownspace> conquerat: no he's anti welfare ad and anti LBJ
[15:08] #knownspace> Lensman: No, I think that's entirely fair.
[15:08] #knownspace> conquerat: he thinks we'd have conquered space were it not for welfare
[15:09] #knownspace> conquerat: he said that in the 80s
[15:09] #knownspace> conquerat: he wrote a story aboutsending someone back in time to kill LBJ
[15:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Niven has a marked political slant to his stories, and I think its entirely appropriate to discuss that.
[15:09] #knownspace> conquerat: the return of somebody
[15:09] #knownspace> conquerat: a senator
[15:09] #knownspace> conquerat: N SPace I think
[15:09] #knownspace> conquerat: in that collection
[15:09] #knownspace> Lensman: "The Return of William Proxmire". But apparently you missed that this is a satire.
[15:10] #knownspace> conquerat: is it?
[15:10] #knownspace> conquerat: I didnt kno that
[15:10] #knownspace> conquerat: I thought he was serious
[15:11] #knownspace> conquerat: been a while since I read that one
[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Proxmire was infamous for nixing congress support of advanced tech, and I think he wanted to kill NASA. One of Larry's pet bugaboos. Larry is not the only one, by a long shot; "Proxmired" is a part of our language.
[15:11] #knownspace> conquerat: I miss "bollixed" that used to be a real word too
[15:11] #knownspace> conquerat: I dont know about Proxmired, I'll look it up
[15:13] #knownspace> conquerat: as far as libertarian, Niven is tame compared to Ayn Rand, but with the Soviets officially out of business, especially in China and even Vietnam, her extremeness is no longer needed
[15:13] #knownspace> conquerat: Larry is more about people taking care of themselves
[15:13] #knownspace> Jim: how about Obama?
[15:13] #knownspace> conquerat: How does Obama fit into a literary chat?
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't think Larry would favor killing JFK, despite all the liberal programs he started. After all, JFK gave us the moon shot. LBJ, now... yeah.
[15:14] #knownspace> conquerat: Obama isnt a communist, he's a carreer politician
[15:14] #knownspace> conquerat: he just wants to be elected
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: How does Obama fit into this chat? Poorly.
[15:14] #knownspace> Jim: Obama is new windmill for the libertarians to battle
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: One thing we seem to be consistent about here is no flamewars. I hope we can avoid partisan political bickering.
[15:15] #knownspace> conquerat: yeah, I know Niven liked JFK, but I thought he was serious about killing LBJ
[15:15] #knownspace> conquerat: you know of course that LBJ only finished what JFK started, right?
[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, I know that.
[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: And did a remarkably good job on the follow-thru. Probably better than Kennedy would have done himself.
[15:16] #knownspace> conquerat: Again kennedy was born rich, Lyndon was born poor
[15:16] #knownspace> conquerat: Lyndon knew what being hungry was
[15:16] #knownspace> Lensman: LBJ was remarkably good at arm-twisting members of his own party to go along with his agenda. They say he "Knew where all the bodies are buried."
[15:16] #knownspace> conquerat: big difference
[15:16] #knownspace> conquerat: yeah, he had to
[15:17] #knownspace> conquerat: again this fits in Nivens universe, Lyndon earned everything he got
[15:17] #knownspace> conquerat: kennedy had everything handed to him. He should have been court martialed for PT109 and never in the service in the first place
[15:17] #knownspace> conquerat: his father pulled a lot of strings
[15:17] #knownspace> conquerat: as ambassador to UK
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't see libertarianism as being about rich vs. poor. It's about being self-reliant versus depending on others to care for you.
[15:18] #knownspace> conquerat: that's what I said
[15:18] #knownspace> conquerat: if you start rich, youre not as determined usually
[15:19] Larry has joined #knownspace
[15:19] #knownspace> conquerat: Lyndon had to be a bastard
[15:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Larry!
[15:19] #knownspace> Jim: Hi, Larry
[15:19] #knownspace> conquerat: Kennedy was always a playboy
[15:19] #knownspace> conquerat: Hi LARRY! :)
[15:19] #knownspace> conquerat: I finally get to tell you hi :)
[15:19] #knownspace> Larry: Hi, gang. Connecting was painful.
[15:19] #knownspace> SeanS: how so?
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Sorry to hear you're still having problems with that, Larry.
[15:20] #knownspace> Larry: Lensman didn't give details. I finally found them on a Larryniven thing. Lensman, are you there after all?
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Larry
[15:20] #knownspace> SeanS: ah
[15:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Sorry Larry, I figured by now you'd have the site bookmarked. Mea culpa!
[15:21] #knownspace> Larry: Hi, Conquerat. Who are you?
[15:21] #knownspace> conquerat: just a fan since the late 80s
[15:21] #knownspace> NickE: works quick and easy
[15:21] #knownspace> conquerat: got hooked on Ringworld in high school
[15:21] #knownspace> Larry: I'm semicompetent. Don't know how to bookmark.
[15:22] #knownspace> Larry: Thanks, Nick, I'll try that next time. What's today's topic?
[15:23] #knownspace> conquerat: you
[15:23] #knownspace> bandersnatch: This forms the intricacies of known space, doesn't it ?
[15:23] #knownspace> conquerat: we're zombies out for brains... your brains! :)
[15:23] #knownspace> bandersnatch: stand back, wash your fingers.
[15:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, we were arguing the evils of libertarianism... thankfully you've rescued us from that!
[15:24] #knownspace> conquerat: no we werent... just differences about personal styles
[15:24] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, thats why i walked away from the chat and called my gf.
[15:24] #knownspace> Larry: I could argue both ends, though I vote Libertarian.
[15:24] #knownspace> conquerat: i stopped voting
[15:24] #knownspace> conquerat: no one left to vote for
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: One interesting question that came up, Larry...
[15:25] #knownspace> conquerat: what do Flatlanders eat?
[15:25] #knownspace> conquerat: is venus a human 'farmworld"?
[15:25] #knownspace> NickE: flatbread?
[15:25] #knownspace> NickE: Dole yeast if broke
[15:25] #knownspace> conquerat: Tnuctipun yeast?
[15:25] #knownspace> Jim: food yeast (Asimov)
[15:26] #knownspace> conquerat: Bordered in Black food 'animals"?
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: I think you used the term dole yeast Larry in one story?
[15:26] #knownspace> Jim: How does one make food from yeast?
[15:26] #knownspace> conquerat: In one Story, Azimov killed the last life on earth to make room for more yeast
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: Marmite :-)
[15:26] #knownspace> Larry: flatlanders eat everything. Re Venus, I haven't touched that planet (I think) since "Becalmed in Hell".
[15:27] #knownspace> Lensman: ...I'm not sure how to phrase this politely, but here goes. Why all the sex in some of your earlier stories? I speculated it might be that writers of the sixties-- not just you-- were celebrating the new-found freedom to write about things forbidden by editors when you were growing up. Or that it showed the influence of the "free love" movement in California, where you moved to after your...
[15:27] #knownspace> conquerat: I know, I lovedthe early KS stories
[15:27] #knownspace> Lensman: ...early college years in Topeka, KS.
[15:27] #knownspace> Jim: sex is fun to talk about
[15:28] #knownspace> Larry: Dole yeast: other scientists/SF writers were playing around with the notion. I incorporated it.
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: its teh oldest funny topic
[15:28] #knownspace> bandersnatch: jim, if you haven't got any further than that ...
[15:28] #knownspace> Larry: I wrote that much about sex for all the reasons you surmise, plus I was young and horny.
[15:28] #knownspace> SeanS: good answer
[15:28] #knownspace> bandersnatch: Actually I wouldn't describe any of Larrys work as sex ridden . quite the opposite. Now Heinlein ...
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:29] #knownspace> Jim: bandersnatch: one cannot HAVE sex in book, one can only discuss sex
[15:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Do you mind personal questions, Larry? I'd like to know where you grew up, before Topeka.
[15:29] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah. I didn't think I was overdoing the sex; it was just a natural part of any imaginary world.
[15:30] #knownspace> Larry: I grew up in Beverly Hills, California.
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: I never found the sex out of context or overdone
[15:30] #knownspace> Larry: High School at Cate, in Carpenteria, near Santa Barbara. You'll find references in my books.
[15:30] #knownspace> SeanS: Many Kinds of Loving, a fan fic by Carol Phillips and Edwin Scribner, is loaded with sex. Email Carol for a copy.
[15:30] #knownspace> conquerat: I read the essay about the robbery "I do not tollerate fools"
[15:31] #knownspace> NickE: Oh yeah, that is, but then that was the intent
[15:31] #knownspace> conquerat: So what book does Mr Niven want to discuss? personally I miss the Monks...
[15:32] #knownspace> NickE: The Long Spoon came up earlier
[15:32] #knownspace> Larry: The Monks only appeared once. I don't have more missions for them.
[15:32] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry, did Cate influence your choice of the mesa geography in A Gift from Earth?
[15:33] #knownspace> SeanS: By their nature, the monks shouldnt show up again
[15:33] #knownspace> Larry: dmac44: yes it did.
[15:33] #knownspace> Larry: SeanS: exactly.
[15:34] #knownspace> conquerat: (I know) the RNA things went into WOOT/ State Series...
[15:34] #knownspace> conquerat: Sometimes the one shots have the best stories
[15:34] #knownspace> conquerat: I didnot like the Locusts though
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: I never found the sex "overdone" either, personally.
[15:34] #knownspace> NickE: yes. Nice idea, unfortunately scienec causght up with that idea
[15:35] #knownspace> conquerat: for the record, i liked Rainbow Mars
[15:35] #knownspace> SeanS: bio
[15:35] #knownspace> Larry: Cate School ends (at one edge) in a steep slope. I once saw a "glory" in a fog bank that rolled right to the edge. Put it in a story.
[15:36] #knownspace> NickE: cool
[15:36] #knownspace> dmac44: aka spectre of the brocken
[15:37] #knownspace> Larry: I had a lot of fun writing Rainbow Mars...and it took years before the idea germinated. Glad you liked it, conquerat.
[15:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry wrote an abortive planetarium show that perhaps mentioned Monks in passing. It was published in BRIDGING THE GALAXIES, a "convention collection". But since it's a planetarium show, it's more of a framework to explore the universe than a story with an actual plot.
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE: It was fun spotting all teh references
[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: "For a Foggy Night"? That's one of the very few stories I've ever read that I found genuinely scary! Mostly because I also have imagined that you could wander off into fog and find yourself... elsewhere.
[15:39] #knownspace> conquerat: Oh yeah, I liked that one too
[15:39] #knownspace> conquerat: That's a good read on a foggy night
[15:39] #knownspace> NickE: indeed
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: It's a great Halloween read!
[15:40] #knownspace> Larry: I'm pleased with "Foggy Night." It's a story Jerry refers to when explaining that Niven does the madness in our stories.
[15:40] #knownspace> conquerat: I have a good one: is Louis Lou-is or Louie? (french Louis)
[15:40] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:41] #knownspace> Lensman: We once made a list of Niven Halloween stories. I can't remember them all now. But certainly "Night on Mispec Moor" and "What Good Is a Glass Dagger?" and "Song of the Night People" fit!
[15:41] #knownspace> Larry: Loo-ee Woo.
[15:41] #knownspace> conquerat: your stories have such depth, and imagination and logic all at once
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: french 9thats how speaker says it
[15:41] #knownspace> conquerat: mmm kay
[15:41] #knownspace> conquerat: there you go
[15:41] #knownspace> conquerat: But in writing, characters speak with their own voices, not the Author's, witness mark Twain
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: sorry, not speaker, Kawaresenjajok
[15:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Both of them, Nick.
[15:42] #knownspace> NickE: (not bad spelling from memory ;-)
[15:42] #knownspace> SeanS: I'm glad you can spell it
[15:42] #knownspace> NickE: el yes
[15:42] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry, can I go on guessing on where some of your ideas came from? In particular Puppeteers.
[15:42] #knownspace> SeanS: I dont even try
[15:42] #knownspace> conquerat: I always figure aliens have as much trouble as human would with languages
[15:42] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah. I should do a Halloween collection. I did a Halloween story or two more than those.
[15:42] #knownspace> dmac44: In the late 1960s and early 1970s there was a Bush Gardens in the San Fernando Valley. After a tour of the beer making facilities you could sit on a patio and drink free beer. Around the patios were grassy areas with all types of birds. I remember looking at the Ostriches and seeing one pass in front of another. There was only one body, two heads and three legs visible. Just like a Puppeteer.
[15:42] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! Yeah, I wouldn't attempt to spell the name of any City Builder except Halrloprillalar, and I only mastered that after a lot of practice.
[15:43] #knownspace> SeanS: halloween story. the one with the demon and pentagram
[15:43] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! "Where do you get your ideas?" is the one question that every SF writer hates, because they get asked that so frequently.
[15:44] #knownspace> bandersnatch: The bellygramm was perfect. I ridled my kids with that one.
[15:45] #knownspace> SeanS: is that convergent series? brain lock
[15:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, how could I forget, Sean! "Convergent Series" (aka "The Long Night") is one of my very favorite Niven stories!
[15:45] #knownspace> Larry: Usually I can answer that question (where the idea came from) for a given story.
[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: "Bellygram". That's good.
[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: :)
[15:46] #knownspace> Larry: So it doesn't bother me.
[15:46] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:47] #knownspace> Larry: Where's "bellygram" from? Is that one of mine?
[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't think so Larry, but it's obviously a reference to the pentagram on the demon's belly in "Convergent Series".
[15:48] #knownspace> bandersnatch: The daemon appearing in the pentagram .................. drawn on its belly
[15:48] #knownspace> Larry: Heh. And not a message?
[15:48] #knownspace> Larry: Say, a rumbling burp?
[15:49] #knownspace> bandersnatch: sure its a message : go away ( to the daemon, and rather forcefull at that )
[15:49] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! Well, *you* are the writer!
[15:49] #knownspace> conquerat: yeah that's a good one
[15:51] #knownspace> conquerat: I liked the first 3 Fleet series, not so much the 4th, but we cant talk about it, and I am awaiting the 5th
[15:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, if you're willing, some of us would like you to outline "The Ghost Ships" and explain just what barrier you ran into. We hope someone can suggest a way around the problem, because we'd still like to see the book.
[15:51] #knownspace> Larry: Someone at a con was using a puppet dragon to encourage kids to read. I said "bookwyrm". Not sure who thought of it first.
[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean says we can talk about BETRAYER starting Jan. 1. So, next month's chat! Be there or be square.
[15:52] #knownspace> Larry: Oh, I just petered out. Maybe I'll try again some day. (The Ghost Ships.)
[15:52] #knownspace> conquerat: (groans) if im not working that day I'll try
[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: I have "Bookwyrm" on a T-shirt.
[15:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Just remember it's the first Saturday of the month.
[15:53] #knownspace> bandersnatch: Lens, did you consume carelessly?
[15:53] #knownspace> conquerat: we were talking about how authors age
[15:53] #knownspace> SeanS: Its a rough day, Jan 1 that is. We could move it to the 8th just for that month
[15:53] #knownspace> conquerat: I miss the old you, but I still like the current you
[15:53] #knownspace> conquerat: some of us work weekends ;)
[15:54] #knownspace> Larry: I AM the old me.
[15:54] #knownspace> SeanS: I have to go to a wedding on Jan 1.
[15:54] #knownspace> Lensman: I did indeed consume books carelessly at a younger age. Heck, I even read dozens in the PERRY RHODAN series. These days, I value my time much more highly.
[15:54] #knownspace> conquerat: Overall, I'm happy with you :) larry :)
[15:54] #knownspace> bandersnatch: knighted labor ?
[15:54] #knownspace> conquerat: any luck on Boosterspice yet?
[15:54] #knownspace> conquerat: we all know you want to live forever, and I hope you do
[15:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Our scouts are out looking for tree-of-life, but no reports of sightings yet, tanjit!
[15:55] #knownspace> conquerat: too bad thalium is really toxic LOL :)
[15:55] #knownspace> Larry: I did NOT consume the Perry Rhodan series. It was all derivative anyway: I read the ideas firsthand.
[15:55] #knownspace> conquerat: or is it a small amount that's needed?
[15:55] #knownspace> conquerat: is the Core more radioactive than the Arms?
[15:56] #knownspace> conquerat: oh, hey! I have a good one for you Mr Niven
[15:56] #knownspace> Larry: The Core is more radioactive than the Arms, I believe. Everything around us is annoyingly radioactive.
[15:56] #knownspace> conquerat: I once wrote a story that coppied you before I ever read WOOT
[15:56] #knownspace> conquerat: like someone in N Space said, you thought of it all first
[15:57] #knownspace> Larry: David Brin once accused me of writing his ideas before he quite thought of them.
[15:57] #knownspace> conquerat: yeah, you did that to me too :)
[15:57] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL!
[15:57] #knownspace> conquerat: one of the reasons I ddevoured KS
[15:58] #knownspace> conquerat: i miss Lucas Garner
[15:58] #knownspace> conquerat: and that time machine within a time machine
[15:58] #knownspace> conquerat: i never found that story again
[15:58] #knownspace> Jim: When did Lucas Garner die?
[15:58] #knownspace> Larry: Brin also said (in N-SPACE) that I open a mine of ideas, then take EVERYTHING.
[15:58] #knownspace> conquerat: shorty after brennan monster was created
[15:59] #knownspace> NickE: heh/ Yeah Lucas was a great character
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: That should be on a button: "The author wrote my ideas before I quite thought of them."
[15:59] #knownspace> Jim: thanks
[15:59] #knownspace> conquerat: that too
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Lucas Garner is one of my favorite characters, too.
[15:59] #knownspace> SeanS: conquerat... that was one of the arm stories... Gil the Arm
[15:59] #knownspace> SeanS: Raymond Sinclair
[15:59] #knownspace> conquerat: (I know)
[16:00] #knownspace> SeanS: k
[16:00] #knownspace> conquerat: I havent seen Flatlander in a long while
[16:00] #knownspace> Larry: I liked working with Lucas Garner. But SF/Detective stories are hard.
[16:00] #knownspace> conquerat: it took me ages to get Smoke Ring
[16:00] #knownspace> conquerat: Mike hammer in space
[16:00] #knownspace> conquerat: You do not write combat well
[16:00] #knownspace> conquerat: but I dont need you to
[16:00] #knownspace> Lensman: "Time machine within a time machine" is "ARM", in THE LONG ARM OF GIL HAMILTON and FLATLANDER.
[16:00] #knownspace> conquerat: I like thought problems instead
[16:01] #knownspace> conquerat: if I ever see it, you know I'll pick it up ;)
[16:02] #knownspace> conquerat: so what's on Larry's mind?
[16:02] #knownspace> Larry: If I need a combat scene, I have to write it with Steve Barnes (unarmed) or Jerry Pournelle (armed.)
[16:02] #knownspace> Lensman: One thing Larry does well is protectors. Nobody else gets that right, not even Ed. It's really really hard to write about characters smarter than you are. So how does Larry do it? Maybe he's not really human. ;)
[16:03] #knownspace> Larry: Or else use a character who doesn't know combat.
[16:03] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah... Barnes is great at the martial arts.
[16:03] #knownspace> conquerat: is mr Niven hoarding the tree of life?
[16:03] #knownspace> SeanS: he let slip the other day on facebook that he might be thinking about a sequal to the kundalini equation... would say know more.
[16:04] #knownspace> conquerat: Ed's protector was a captive trying to escape, not rule his human breeders
[16:04] #knownspace> Larry: Writing about characters smarter than the author, works if I put restrictions on them. Also I can think about a problem at length, then make them react in seconds.
[16:05] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry, I saw where you and Steven Barnes have a new book coming out next August called The Moon Maze. Is this another Dream Park book?
[16:05] #knownspace> conquerat: is the ARM chief a Human Protector?
[16:05] #knownspace> Larry: The Moon Maze Game is a Dream Park novel, yes, even though set on the Moon.
[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: conquerat: If we tell you, then we have to kill you.
[16:06] #knownspace> Larry: conquerat: some secrets are not known to me until I make up an answer.
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: I really liked the take in one of the MKW stories... was it "The Asteroid Queen"? ...which had some sort of secret society, maybe the Rosicrucians, tied into the ARM, and not-so-subtly suggesting there was a mysterious power behind the throne pulling the strings.
[16:08] #knownspace> conquerat: ah, well
[16:09] #knownspace> SeanS: Yakuza wasnt it... it has been a long time since i read the asteroid queen
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: But seriously, I cannot personally believe a protector is still around at the time of the Man-Kzin Wars. If there was a protector influencing things, the Kzinti would have been *exterminated*.
[16:10] #knownspace> conquerat: NOT if keeping them around meant improving humanity
[16:11] #knownspace> Larry: I had to decide that the Man-Kzin Wars are not canonical. I tried to keep them consistent, but not hard enough.
[16:11] #knownspace> conquerat: brennan killed the martians for 2 reasons, the dont really exist and they were dangerous to humans on mars
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Protectors don't think that way, conquerat. If they did, then Brennan wouldn't have exterminated the Martians.
[16:12] #knownspace> SeanS: they arent canon but most are fun. didnt care for a darker geometry.
[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Martians killed, what? At most a few dozen humans? How many humans did Kzinti kill? I cannot believe a Human protector wouldn't do absolutely everything he could to exterminate them.
[16:12] #knownspace> conquerat: I didnt get to read very many MZW
[16:12] #knownspace> conquerat: your books dont show up often enough in used books stores or stay there long...
[16:12] #knownspace> Larry: Brennan probably didn't think in terms of improving humanity. Protectors keep their species unchanged, unmutated.
[16:13] #knownspace> SeanS: thats cause people like me keep them on the shelves forever. ;)
[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed says Larry has ruled "A Darker Geometry" out of the canon. I'm glad, it's very very incompatible with established canon.
[16:13] #knownspace> Jim: conquerat: that is what the Kindle is for
[16:13] #knownspace> conquerat: Maybe there was an insane (Bram like) protector
[16:15] #knownspace> Lensman: It is indeed interesting that Chronos *guided* the evolution of the Ghouls. I guess the Ringworld Engineers were truly a different breed of protectors, perhaps not so rigidly controlled by their instincts.
[16:16] #knownspace> conquerat: I think he said that through Proserpina
[16:16] #knownspace> conquerat: they tried to breed out the need to smell their own kind
[16:16] #knownspace> Lensman: conquerat: Seriously, you should visit and bookmark the site. It's great for all book collectors. Makes finding that rare book quite easy! And usually you can find a copy in decent shape at a decent price. It's surprising to see such a wide range of prices on the same edition of the same book.
[16:17] #knownspace> Larry: I had extensive notes re the protectors' voyage into the arms of the galaxy. Yes, they changed, they evolved.
[16:17] #knownspace> conquerat: Human protectors would be alien to a pak
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: We get what *appears* to be the true story of the Ringworld Engineers from Proserpina. Unfortunately it's told in first person, so we can't be sure she's telling the truth.
[16:18] #knownspace> Jim: A Pak is missing parts of the prefrontal lobs?
[16:18] #knownspace> conquerat: Phispok expected brennan-monster tokill him and didnt resist
[16:18] #knownspace> Lensman: And Ed pointed out one large problem: Proserpina claims to be, oh, a million years old or so. How is it that she has survived to such an advanced age?
[16:18] #knownspace> conquerat: Humans have "more" prefrontal as pak breeders dont have them at all, and protectors only gain them when they change
[16:18] #knownspace> Jim: stasis
[16:19] #knownspace> SeanS: good point, Lensman. Phsstpok was worried about 3000 years.
[16:19] #knownspace> Lensman: There is no evidence of stasis fields on the Ringworld until the /Liar/ crashed there. Not even in the Repair Center.
[16:20] #knownspace> conquerat: Proserpina could also be "insane" for a protector
[16:20] #knownspace> conquerat: Tunesmith wasnt what Louis had hoped for
[16:21] #knownspace> Jim: Maybe Proserpina avoided contact with everyone. That would allow her to remain alive as long as her body would let her.
[16:21] #knownspace> Lensman: My fan theory is that there is some sort of rejuvenation machine in the Penultimate's Citadel for protectors. But maybe she had her own device before she was exiled there.
[16:21] #knownspace> conquerat: if we use Louis' sanity as a yardstick...
[16:21] #knownspace> conquerat: you think she invented the WOOT 'dicta imortality"?
[16:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: Yes, but how long would her body let her? Remember in /Protector/ its established that protectors do have a lifespan. A very long lifespan, but far far less than a million years!
[16:22] #knownspace> conquerat: if she were to survive, she would have had to
[16:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, I was thinking something like "dikta immortality".
[16:23] #knownspace> conquerat: I like how technology creeps back and forth between Niven universes
[16:23] #knownspace> conquerat: some characters shouldn't, but the tech should
[16:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Or, you know, she could have been lying. Just repeating a story handed down thru the generations.
[16:23] #knownspace> conquerat: the tales tell of Girls who ruled the Map of Pakhome
[16:24] #knownspace> Jim: Girls?
[16:24] #knownspace> conquerat: WOOT reference
[16:24] #knownspace> Larry: I try to keep the tech seperate between universes...but some tech is inevitable. Humans will always seek longevity, and instant teaching, and teleportation.
[16:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, would you care to comment? Is Proserpina really a million years old or more?
[16:24] #knownspace> conquerat: I figured the transfer devices in the stand alones alternate 1990s did
[16:25] #knownspace> Larry: re Proserpina, I haven't decided.
[16:25] #knownspace> conquerat: Brain transfer? through the WOOT helmet?
[16:26] #knownspace> conquerat: Cloning and brain transfer is believable
[16:26] #knownspace> conquerat: (maybe)
[16:26] #knownspace> Larry: What WOOT helmet?
[16:26] #knownspace> conquerat: in the ship
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Some MKW authors picked up on the idea of sentient computers going insane or catatonic, from "The Schumann Computer". Yet in RC we see that Hindmost's Voice appears stable. I thought it was interesting that in BETRAYER OF WORLDS there was a passing comment about sentient computers "going rogue". I presume that was put in by Ed, not Larry.
[16:26] #knownspace> conquerat: "I will not be turned into hamburger"
[16:26] #knownspace> SeanS: Proserpina shouldnt be... that doesnt reconcile with the colonists' protectors dying of old age during the 10,000 year journey from pachome to earth.
[16:27] #knownspace> conquerat: When Peersa tries to get Corbell to let himself be cloned to finish the mission
[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: conquerat: No, dikta immortality is a very limited teleportation device which removes the "junk" accumulated in the cells which (in that book) is the cause of aging.
[16:28] #knownspace> conquerat: No, the stand alone detective stories set in 1990s LA
[16:28] #knownspace> Larry: Most of what's in the "Fleet of Worlds" series was put in by Ed even if he picked it out of Known Space stories. That was the point of the exercise.
[16:29] #knownspace> SeanS: where is Ed, btw... he usually shows up around now unless he has something else going on.
[16:29] #knownspace> Larry: Ed is otherwise occupied today.
[16:29] #knownspace> SeanS: ah
[16:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, I have gathered from what Ed said that he was the one who came up with the basic plots of the stories. It hasn't been clear to me how much input you have had. I presume you get veto rights, final approval of the manuscript?
[16:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Sorry, I should have said earlier that Ed won't be here today.
[16:30] #knownspace> Larry: Lensman, you surmise correctly.
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanks.
[16:33] #knownspace> conquerat: does your estate have any plans to licence your Universe as Azimov's?
[16:34] #knownspace> conquerat: that way the stories could continue?
[16:35] #knownspace> SeanS: dang... dont put him in the grave yet... i like typing to him from time to time ;)
[16:35] #knownspace> conquerat: not what I meant, you know that
[16:36] #knownspace> SeanS: i know... laughing here
[16:36] #knownspace> conquerat: I'd like to know what happens to the Teela Brown Gene myself
[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Proserpina's "immortality" doesn't have to be that close to dikta immortality. It just has to be some sort of tech which isn't generally available to protectors. Could be a specialized bacteria that cleans out the system. Could be a variant on tree-of-life that works better for extending lifespan. Actually, that makes the most sense; she said she experimented with TOL. Could be a nanotech...
[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: ...machine-- nanite-- which cleans out the body. But that is not a good idea, because if the Ringworld Engineers had nanotech then they would have done many things differently.
[16:36] #knownspace> conquerat: there must be stories between RW and Safe
[16:36] #knownspace> Larry: It's high time I made out a new will. I plan to give all part-completed works to the collaborators.
[16:37] #knownspace> conquerat: Teela did say a disease took the protectors
[16:37] #knownspace> conquerat: maybe Proserpina accidentally killed them?
[16:38] #knownspace> Jim: Harlan Ellison has a clause in his will that states the opposite. All of his partially completed manuscripts will be burned/erased.
[16:38] #knownspace> conquerat: harlan is as insane as Bram LOL :)
[16:38] #knownspace> Larry: It's my lunchtime. Fare you well, all.
[16:39] #knownspace> conquerat: Adios!
[16:39] #knownspace> Jim: Bye
[16:39] #knownspace> NickE: Nice to see you Lary
[16:39] #knownspace> Lensman: We will never see the "No Longer Dangerous Visions" anthologies. Oops, I meant "The Last Dangerous Visions". ;)
[16:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye Larry!
[16:39] #knownspace> Larry: I always liked the sequel title: "Dangerous Revisions".
[16:39] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:40] #knownspace> NickE: Didn't that come up a few chats back?
[16:40] #knownspace> conquerat: Thanks guys! :)
[16:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Probably, we tend to repeat ourselves. I've been told old fogies like me tend to do that. But it's a tanj lie!
[16:40] #knownspace> SeanS: I aim to please
[16:41] #knownspace> SeanS: getting fans together with the author is why i run the server. and always remember that I started doing it at Frank Gasperik's request.
[16:45] #knownspace> bandersnatch: He'l probably be banging on his equipment in the cloud! Goddam f* irc client, no connection ;-)
[16:47] #knownspace> Jim: Qatar is going to get the FIFA World Cup.
[16:48] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman, quick question: was you involuntarily banned from the list?
[16:52] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman, what would the RE do differently, if they had nanotechnology?
[16:55] #knownspace> Jim: Bendar is great
[16:56] #knownspace> NickE: just glad the UK lost - I don't want to spend 2018 avoiding all UK media (bloody hate footy)
[16:56] #knownspace> NickE: bad enough when we're not hosting it! :-)
[16:57] #knownspace> SeanS: I totally agree with Frank and the cloud
[16:57] #knownspace> SeanS: I used to talk to him on the phone all the time and that was exactly how he was like.
[16:58] #knownspace> NickE: Frank was always good value
[16:59] #knownspace> SeanS: He and Peggy both
[17:00] #knownspace> Jim: Is Peggy still alive?
[17:00] #knownspace> SeanS: no
[17:00] #knownspace> SeanS: she died about a month before frank
[17:00] #knownspace> Jim: I ask this because Frank passed away about the same time I joined the list. Time flies.
[17:00] #knownspace> NickE: Heh, I remember the wedding, he and Peggy were about to be hitched and he was on here cahting with us as well
[17:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: Yes.
[17:01] #knownspace> NickE: was very sad how it all ended
[17:01] #knownspace> SeanS: frank had the peggy memorial with online friends right here
[17:02] #knownspace> NickE: Yes. very moving it was too
[17:02] #knownspace> SeanS: it was
[17:02] #knownspace> SeanS: dang... sorry to drag the chat down like that
[17:03] #knownspace> NickE: well, Frank would have brought it right back up again by saying something outrageous or deeply interesting :-)
[17:03] #knownspace> SeanS: he would
[17:04] #knownspace> NickE: probably both
[17:04] #knownspace> SeanS: thats basically the same reason that niven and pournelle said he took over a novel like kudzu.
[17:04] #knownspace> Lensman: What would the RE do differently with nanotech? We're told over and over the REs used a brute-force, relatively low-tech approach to designing the Ringworld. With nanotech, wouldn't they do things in a more sophisticated fashion? More subtle nanomachines working out of sight, less gigantic machines? No reason to need the flup system and undersea dredges, both systems are prone to breakdown....
[17:04] #knownspace> Lensman: ...Just recycle locally. Erosion could be reversed using pervasive nanites in the soil.
[17:05] #knownspace> NickE: kudzu? (kind of get it from context but wtf is it?)
[17:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Invasive vine that's taking over the American southwest.
[17:05] #knownspace> Lensman: scratch that...
[17:06] #knownspace> Lensman: The American South.
[17:06] #knownspace> SeanS: kudzu is a japanese vine/plant that grows like crazy and very hard to get rid of
[17:06] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman, could it be that the low-tech, brute force trope was used in RW because Larry had to explain the construction/operation of the Ringworld to 20th century people.
[17:06] #knownspace> SeanS: was brought in to stabilize hillsides and such
[17:06] #knownspace> NickE: ah
[17:07] #knownspace> NickE: is it the same as Japanese knotweed?
[17:07] #knownspace> Jim: bringing in new animals and plants is normally a bad policy
[17:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Song cue: "Where the emerald kudzu twine / Under a blanket of vine. / I spend a life / With a hatchet and a knife / Where the emerald kudzu twine."
[17:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: Seems to have to do with protector psychology. They want to oversee everything directly, micromanage. So: No sophisticated automation, everything requires direct control by a protector or his servants.
[17:09] #knownspace> Akiraa: there is surprisingly little on AI in Larry's works
[17:09] #knownspace> NickE: pretty sure that was deliberate - introduces too many other issues
[17:10] #knownspace> Lensman: We could, of course, argue that protectors wouldn't use nanotech even if they discovered it, because it's too hard to see if an outsider is taking control of your nanites to use them against you. But Tunesmith certainly jumped at the chance to use them!
[17:10] #knownspace> Lensman: There are very few references to robots in Larry's stories, and even fewer to A.I.
[17:11] #knownspace> dmac44: I doubt he saw another answer to geeting away from the KS races.
[17:11] #knownspace> Lensman: My guess is Larry's attitude was "Asimov is doing robots, I'm going to do something entirely different."
[17:11] #knownspace> NickE: I don't see it as that much of a problem. Heinlien didn't use it much either
[17:11] #knownspace> NickE: quite possibly
[17:12] #knownspace> Jim: Strong AI is much harder than Asimov imagined.
[17:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Much, much harder than Asimov suggested. He suggested a *hardware* solution to a *software* problem.
[17:12] #knownspace> NickE: Thing is in writig hard sf youre sorta obliged to explore implications of tech - so if you're not interested in tose particular implications, don't introduce the tech
[17:13] #knownspace> NickE: Of course, that doesnt always work. Stasis fields being a good case in point
[17:13] #knownspace> NickE: Lots of implications, only a few explored
[17:13] #knownspace> bandersnatch: There is a common missconception imho about what level of sophistication "nono" something woud comprise.
[17:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Niven wanted to write about truly different aliens. So he concentrated on that, which meant he couldn't put a lot of robotics into his stories. They would have been a distraction from what he *wanted* to write about. That's my take on it-- just a hopefully educated guess.
[17:14] #knownspace> NickE: exactly. its a very misued word/prefix
[17:15] #knownspace> NickE: Lens, inclined to agree. Not complaining!
[17:15] #knownspace> dmac44: But the aliens could have made robots. :)
[17:15] #knownspace> bandersnatch: You can realise failureprone concepts both with brute force machinery as well with nano machines. The reverse is true as well.
[17:15] #knownspace> Jim: In his story, Zima Blue, Alastair Reynolds told a tale that discussed the evolution of Strong AI in a reasonable (it seemed to me) manner.
[17:15] #knownspace> Lensman: The word "nanotech" has been hijacked by advertising, like "virtual reality" has been hijacked by the software companies. Products are being advertised as having
[17:16] #knownspace> NickE: I mean, one of my colleagues works on nanopatches for vaccine delivery. Most folk won't hav any idea what that means
[17:16] #knownspace> Lensman: having "nanotech" just because their cleaning product has nano-sized particles in it!
[17:16] #knownspace> NickE: good example
[17:16] #knownspace> NickE: nano size stuff is all over the place quite naturally
[17:17] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm sure if Larry wanted his stories to include pervasive use of A.I., he would have done that.
[17:17] #knownspace> Jim: At West Va. University, the word "nanotechnology" is a totem employed to gain research funding.
[17:17] #knownspace> Jim: All of these good questions to ask Larry after he left for lunch.
[17:17] #knownspace> NickE: well yeah :-)
[17:18] #knownspace> NickE: typical :-)
[17:18] #knownspace> Akiraa: there was talk about "nucleonics" as an atomic equivalent to "electronics", whereby signals are carried by strong/weak force fields etc... all bunk from what I gather
[17:18] #knownspace> Akiraa: that's grounds for femtotech right there
[17:19] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[17:19] #knownspace> Lensman: I was talking to a guy on another forum just last nite about the implications of the Sinclair inertial reduction device in "ARM". That got, I think, one single passing mention in a later story as an example of a tech which the ARM suppressed. Yeah, the stasis field is something which has an enormous potential for use... and over-use in stories.
[17:19] #knownspace> NickE: It's all quantum (Pterry quote I think)
[17:20] #knownspace> Jim: How would one create a transmission device analogous to an electrical power cord for strong or weak nuclear forces?
[17:21] #knownspace> NickE: not sure you could, even theoretically
[17:22] #knownspace> Akiraa: information supposedly transmitted by atomic processes like beta decay, fission etc
[17:22] #knownspace> Lensman: The only thing we've been able to develop thus far from Einstein's Relativity equations is nuclear power. Why? There's an equivalence... why can't we use the same principle to create matter from energy (I know... enormously expensive), or indeed why can't we manipulate the strong and the weak nuclear forces using electromagnetism? Perhaps someday we'll figure out how to do those things. I...
[17:22] #knownspace> Akiraa:
[17:22] #knownspace> Lensman: ...certainly think it's premature to say they're impossible.
[17:22] #knownspace> Jim: 20th century electrical technology was derived from 18th century experiments with a natural phenomena, lightning.
[17:23] #knownspace> Akiraa: or hypothetical computation at the surface of a neutron star
[17:23] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman, I was under the impression that nuclear power was the byproduct of Quantum Mechanics.
[17:24] #knownspace> Lensman: True, the strong and weak nuclear forces are very short-range forces, it's hard to see how they could be conducted to a distant location.
[17:24] #knownspace> NickE: Dragons Egg is a good exploration of hwat might be possible ona Neutron Star
[17:25] #knownspace> Jim: Revelation Space has a Neutron Star that works as a giant computer.
[17:25] #knownspace> Lensman: The nuclear bomb is based on the equation E=MC^2. Is quantum mechanics necessary there? Heck, Einstein didn't even believe in quantum uncertainty. "God does not play dice."
[17:25] #knownspace> Jim: EDT S/Neutron Star/neutron star/
[17:27] #knownspace> Jim: Nuclear shielding is one technological area that depends upon QM.
[17:27] #knownspace> Akiraa: there are deterministic interpretations to QM
[17:28] #knownspace> Lensman: What do you mean by "nuclear shielding"?
[17:28] #knownspace> NickE: @Akiraa Interesting. But possibly not a typically peer reviewed journal? The language is not usual
[17:28] #knownspace> NickE: but hey, Ob Niven. Lots of Mossbauer refs
[17:29] #knownspace> NickE: (Harvey Mossbauer, RWE)
[17:29] #knownspace> NickE: need to look more closely (biologist, not physicist :-)
[17:29] #knownspace> Akiraa: no, not a journal paper
[17:29] #knownspace> Jim: Nuclear Shielding: material structures employed to slow down and make harmless the neutron, alpha wave, beta wave, and gamma wave emissions from nuclear explosions or reactors.
[17:30] #knownspace> NickE: nah, pretty obvious
[17:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Quantum mechanics theory was certainly developed to some extent before the Manhattan District project, but AFAIK it wasn't used to develop atomic power. Even today, QM cannot be reconciled with Relativity.
[17:30] #knownspace> NickE: Nope.
[17:31] #knownspace> NickE: Bit of an issue that
[17:31] #knownspace> NickE: But ripe fo interesing speculation
[17:31] #knownspace> NickE: Quantum Time Travel anyone?
[17:31] #knownspace> Jim: I have seen the work of philosophers that claim that both Relativity and QM have a truth value of .FALSE.
[17:32] #knownspace> NickE: (New Scientist article, but hey, interesting)
[17:32] #knownspace> Jim: I wanna be genetically engineered.
[17:32] #knownspace> NickE: Transmetropolitan
[17:32] #knownspace> NickE: What you want the Phone trait?
[17:33] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[17:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: eventually, all theories are found to be a little wanting, but calling them false is wrong
[17:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: Newton's mechanics was not invalidated by Relativity or QM, but improved upon
[17:34] #knownspace> Jim: To a philosopher, propositions are either true or false.
[17:34] #knownspace> Akiraa: Newton's theory is not as false as magic fairies
[17:34] #knownspace> Lensman: What Akiraa said. Just because Newton's laws of motion have been superseded by Relativity doesn't mean they are not still relevant and useful. The Apollo moon shots used Newton's laws, not Relativity, to calculate trajectories.
[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: I hope that if and when we get a Grand Unified Field Theory that we'll be able to produce antigravity, but even if we do, that won't make Relativity theory useless.
[17:36] #knownspace> Jim: My Ph.D. is in engineering; I never said that Newtonian mechanics, Relativity, or Quantum Mechanics were not useful.
[17:36] #knownspace> NickE: A-Grav owuld be cool. But not if it destroys teh universe
[17:36] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[17:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Well yes, there *are* theories which are "false" in that they are useless. Phlogistion, luminiferous aether, phrenology. These have no value at all.
[17:37] #knownspace> Jim: Utility is not Truth.
[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Picky, picky, picky. What's a few universes if you can have antigravity for just an instant before everything goes "kerflooie"?
[17:37] #knownspace> Akiraa: these theories either have no predictive value, or have been outright falsified
[17:38] #knownspace> Jim: Inviscid Fluid theory is false, but extremely useful.
[17:38] #knownspace> Akiraa: it would have been interesting if Michelson's experiments stumbled onto something
[17:38] #knownspace> Akiraa: within very small error bars, there could still be an aether hiding
[17:39] #knownspace> NickE: vacuum energy? The grid?
[17:39] #knownspace> Lensman: I think many mathematicians would disagree, Jim. Math is very useful and can show us Truth.
[17:40] #knownspace> Jim: Name one
[17:41] #knownspace> Lensman: I was just reading about quantum mechanics and transistors yesterday. The math pointed to the possibility of something. The "something" was developed, and it was the transistor, which did work according to theory. That is what *I* would call "Truth", whether you would or not.
[17:41] #knownspace> NickE: Typically what science tells us is that there is a shitload that we don't know. Even when it tells us we perrty much know most of it, it's value is that this can still be questioned
[17:41] #knownspace> Jim: Utility <> Truth; Truth <>

[17:41] #knownspace> Akiraa: if something describes a portion of the world accurately enough to be useful, it can't be called just false
[17:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim, you have a bad habit of asserting things as if merely by saying them, they must be true. You're entitled to your opinion that Utility <> Truth, but it's just your opinion.

[17:42] #knownspace> NickE: (Science that is. It's value. Oh hell, you know what I mean)
[17:42] #knownspace> Akiraa: descriptivity trumps utility; religion may be useful, but as a descriptive theory it's useless
[17:43] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman, show me an inviscid fluid.
[17:43] #knownspace> Akiraa: liquid helium
[17:43] #knownspace> Lensman: I have no idea what that means, and anyway I have given you a positive example. A negative example can't disprove the positive example.
[17:43] #knownspace> Akiraa: check: superfluids
[17:43] #knownspace> Jim: I forgot about superfluids.
[17:44] #knownspace> Lensman: What about superfluids?
[17:44] #knownspace> Akiraa: liquids that flow without friction
[17:44] #knownspace> Akiraa: which usually also conduct without resistance
[17:44] #knownspace> Jim: Inviscid theory is commonly used to describe the motion of aircraft in air, a viscous fluid.
[17:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Don't see what that has to do with the proposition that Utility cannot equal Truth.
[17:45] #knownspace> Lensman: So perhaps it's a useful approximation, like Newton's Laws. Not entirely accurate, but close enuff for most purposes. What does that have to do with the point under debate?
[17:46] #knownspace> Jim: Much of engineering is based upon simplifications and approximations of scientific theories. An approximation is never true, but sometimes useful.
[17:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Quantum mechanics pointed to a Truth: How to make a transistor. The fact that transistors are useful doesn't invalidate the point.
[17:47] #knownspace> Lensman: If it's within the margin of error, then it's True.
[17:47] #knownspace> Jim: No
[17:47] #knownspace> Jim: Epic fail
[17:48] #knownspace> Lensman: To suggest otherwise is the Perfect driving out the Good, which in itself is a fallacy-- an untruth.
[17:48] #knownspace> Jim: Wrong
[17:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, Jim, I guess we should just agree to disagree.
[17:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyway, I have to go, I have guests.
[17:48] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[17:56] #knownspace> dmac44: I'm going too, I think I'll miss next months if it's on the 1st.
[17:58] #knownspace> Akiraa: Are you familiar with Turing machine theory?
[17:59] #knownspace> NickE: I suspect it will be the 8th. New Years Day is difficult for many
[17:59] #knownspace> Akiraa: was looking for a physical equivalent: universal constructor
[17:59] #knownspace> NickE: Turing test?
[17:59] #knownspace> Akiraa: i.e. a constructor that can construct anything that another constructor can, including itself
[18:00] #knownspace> Akiraa: or a functional equivalent
[18:00] #knownspace> Akiraa: given enough time and raw materials
[18:00] #knownspace> NickE: sort of a macro von neumann device?
[18:00] #knownspace> Akiraa: yes
[18:00] #knownspace> Akiraa: does sci-fi treat this topic?
[18:01] #knownspace> NickE: tends to be the nano variety
[18:01] #knownspace> Akiraa: by definition, a universal constructor would also be a turing machine
[18:01] #knownspace> NickE: and just assumed
[18:01] #knownspace> Akiraa: but a constructor "constructs" while a turing machine emulates
[18:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: that is, the simulation of a turing machine inside another machine would be more constrained
[18:02] #knownspace> NickE: would Star Trek replicators (yes, "magic tech" but hey) fit teh bill?
[18:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: slower, more memory etc
[18:03] #knownspace> Akiraa: was looking for something macroscopic
[18:04] #knownspace> Akiraa: now, we could have a partial universal constructor, which could emulate the parts it can't construct
[18:04] #knownspace> Akiraa: or push into software some details of the physical construction
[18:08] CrazyEddy has joined #knownspace
[18:11] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[18:35] NickE has joined #knownspace
[18:47] #knownspace> nedry: well, it's been an interesting night. the fire brigade just left
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