Chat Log: December 5th 2009

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[08:37] #knownspace> Akiraa: Are there any larry niven stories/novels made into films? Or planned?

[10:03] #knownspace> sean: nope

[10:03] #knownspace> sean: oh, yes

[10:03] #knownspace> sean: Inconstant Moon was made into an Outer Limits episode.

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[12:44] #knownspace> bandersnatch: plop, working for a set of hands

[12:45] #knownspace> SeanS: heh

[12:48] #knownspace> SeanS: life in a shallow sea filled with tailored algae can't be that fun.

[12:48] #knownspace> bandersnatch: so i need a set of hands to stir it a bit and watch the swirls

[12:49] #knownspace> SeanS: it would definately be more interesting

[12:52] #knownspace> SeanS: how many species had hands made for them? Dolphins... anyone else?

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[13:05] #knownspace> senax: Hi.

[13:10] #knownspace> SeanS: hi

[13:10] #knownspace> SeanS: hi outsider

[13:10] #knownspace> Outsider: Hello SeanS:)

[13:10] #knownspace> SeanS: hadnt checked on outsider in a while...

[13:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Grogs didn't have "hands" made for them, but wanted some animal *with* hands which they could manipulate.

[13:14] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, i just re-read that story recently

[13:15] #knownspace> Lensman: I always wondered what Bandersnatchi did to pass the time, in a pretty much sensory-deprived environment. Sing songs? Play tag? As far as I can tell, they have no eyes. So that lets out a lot, unfortunately.

[13:16] #knownspace> SeanS: they have a sense cluster but i don't think it has ever been said what they actually sense.

[13:16] #knownspace> Lensman: No eyes and probably not even a visual cortex to process visuals even if they *did* have eyes given to them.

[13:17] #knownspace> Lensman: They have bristles on their head. I seem to recall a bit of fanfic or something that suggested they can see, but that's going waaaay beyond what the text will support. Maybe in /The Guide to Larry Niven's Ringworld/?

[13:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Bristles could sense touch and vibration. Maybe they can sense the movement of air. I suspect they have a fairly sophisticated ability to feel vibration. I've suggested they "thrum" on the ground to communicate. That's not certain, but how *else* to explain the bit in WOT where as soon as one helicopter shoots a Bandersnatch, the others avoid it? They have some form of communication which...

[13:20] #knownspace> Lensman: at reasonably long distance and allows them to communicate rapidly. If it's not by ground vibrations, I don't know what it could be.

[13:22] #knownspace> SeanS: the best description of them that i can remember is in world of ptavvs but i dont see my copy on the shelf... wonder what i did with it?

[13:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Actually as I look at my Concordance entry for Bandersnatchi, it's the Ringworld RPG that suggests they use ground vibrations to communicate, so that probably was not an original idea with me.

[13:47] #knownspace> bandersnatch: Being still able to write after ages they must have some worthwhile objective for applying their intellect. Even if their genetic setup reduces changes over time my guess is they would loose intelligence rather fast ( compare to wolfskind and similar )

[13:54] #knownspace> SeanS: genetically engineered intelligence and engineered never to change.

[13:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Maybe they simply never lose their memories, even after multiple generations. After all, since they reproduce by budding, they are essentially immortal.

[14:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I admit that's a bit far-fetched, tho... never losing memories indicates their memories would eventually get "full".

[14:00] #knownspace> Lensman: So that suggests that they do practice writing on an ongoing basis.

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[14:21] #knownspace> SeanS: wb

[14:21] #knownspace> bandersnatch: ups

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[14:24] #knownspace> SeanS: hi Growler

[14:24] #knownspace> Growler: hi

[14:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi fen!

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[15:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Is it just me, or is it really dead in here?

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[15:48] #knownspace> SeanS: i have been in the kitchen cooking

[15:48] #knownspace> SeanS: lot of big sports events today... college football conference title games mainly

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[15:49] #knownspace> SeanS: hi fred

[15:49] #knownspace> Fred: greets peeps

[15:49] #knownspace> Fred: logged on before running to the pharmacy so I can catch up when I get back :)

[15:49] #knownspace> SeanS: well, hopefully there will be a few more here when you get back ;)

[15:50] #knownspace> SeanS: lots of big college football games on today

[15:51] #knownspace> Fred: I can smell them individually. The very concept makes me itch.

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[15:52] #knownspace> dmac44: hi all

[15:52] #knownspace> SeanS: hey

[15:53] #knownspace> dmac44: have you all been discussing Destroyer of Worlds?

[15:53] #knownspace> SeanS: nope

[15:53] #knownspace> SeanS: and hopefully wont. i just started it

[15:53] #knownspace> dmac44: ok, no spoilers

[15:53] #knownspace> dmac44: what is the topic?

[15:54] #knownspace> SeanS: i was not allowed to buy it when it came out as my birthday was the 27th of november ;)

[15:54] #knownspace> SeanS: havent set one yet. was some interesting discussion about bandersnatch and how the sense around them

[15:54] #knownspace> SeanS: the existing topic is from last month

[15:55] #knownspace> Fred: We could argue endlessly about potential scripts for the Ringworld movie :)

[15:55] #knownspace> dmac44: household robots?

[15:55] #knownspace> dmac44: is anyone getting close to producing one/

[15:55] #knownspace> Fred: bbiab

[15:56] #knownspace> SeanS: i have a roomba. tis a household robot

[15:56] #knownspace> SeanS: thats what spawned that topic last month

[15:56] #knownspace> dmac44: I wouldn't be worried during the day but after I fall asleep .....

[15:57] #knownspace> SeanS: i wouldnt want it to vacuum me to death ;)

[15:58] #knownspace> dmac44: yeah, a hacker might take it over and command it do to something like that

[15:58] #knownspace> SeanS: heh... somebody is way ahead of you.

[15:58] #knownspace> SeanS: .g hacking roomba

[15:58] #knownspace> Outsider: SeanS:

[16:00] #knownspace> SeanS: if you havent seen one, btw, it does a hell of a job on wood and tile and makes dog hair go away.

[16:00] #knownspace> SeanS: i was a skeptic when i got it but will now recommend it absolutely

[16:02] #knownspace> dmac44: haven't tried one, can they climb stairs?

[16:02] #knownspace> SeanS: no

[16:03] #knownspace> SeanS: but it doesnt fall off the loft

[16:03] #knownspace> dmac44: smart marketing, you have to buy one for each floor

[16:04] #knownspace> SeanS: the one i got was the entry level one. i will move it up and down. let it do the pool table room and the loft. the next one i get will be a four room model with the docking station and programable cleaning times. it will do the rest of the house

[16:06] #knownspace> dmac44: if the topic is: If they become self aware, will they stop cleaning the floor? then just make the stuff they get off the floors trickle charge their pleasure centers. :)

[16:07] #knownspace> SeanS: good answer

[16:07] #knownspace> SeanS: anybody can change the topic, btw

[16:08] #knownspace> dmac44: I had a comment about Destroyer but since you haven't read it I don't want tobring it up. What else?

[16:09] #knownspace> SeanS: well, since you have read it, sigmund and company just came out of hyperspace in the gwo'th system... thats where i am

[16:09] #knownspace> SeanS: before that i did wonder about the statement that the #3 GP hull was 110 feet in diameter. seemed a bit big

[16:10] #knownspace> dmac44: the #4 hulls are big, don't remember their size though.

[16:10] #knownspace> SeanS: the number 4's are about a mile in diameter

[16:10] #knownspace> dmac44: sorry, just saw you said #3

[16:11] #knownspace> dmac44: the 110 feet for a #3 does sound large

[16:11] #knownspace> SeanS: sigmund and company are in a #3

[16:14] #knownspace> SeanS: ringworld engineers says a flattened cylinder rounded at the ends... no dimensions

[16:14] #knownspace> SeanS: was hoping larry or ed would show up so i could ask

[16:14] #knownspace> SeanS: but i really dont want to open up a general discussion if you know what i mean ;)

[16:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Diameter of #3 GP hull is given in RT, I think.

[16:15] #knownspace> Lensman: No, it's in RC.

[16:16] #knownspace> dmac44: Last time Ed said he wasn't going to be here this time

[16:16] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens, do you remember what it said in RC?

[16:16] #knownspace> Lensman: #4 about 1000 ft diameter, except that the /Long Shot/ is said to be over a mile in diameter more than once. >:-(

[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: A minute. Yes, Ed will not be here. Haven't heard from Larry, but he keeps not being able to get in.

[16:18] #knownspace> SeanS: from RC: a 110 foot diameter cylinder. answers my question

[16:19] #knownspace> Lensman: "Louis walked until Needle loomed: a hundred-and-ten-foot diameter cylinder with a flattened belly."

[16:19] #knownspace> dmac44: #4 about 1000 ft diameter, except that the /Long Shot/ is said to be over a mile in diameter more than once. Ah, evidence for another obscure Puppetter technology - space folding :)

[16:20] #knownspace> Lensman: No length given. RPG specifies "nearly 150 meters".

[16:20] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL Well actually, Nessus *did* give Julian Forward a tesseract!

[16:21] #knownspace> dmac44: the Puppetters just scaled it up

[16:22] #knownspace> Lensman: So maybe the /Long Shot/ is a mile in diameter... but only on the *inside*!

[16:22] #knownspace> dmac44: or they used mirrors

[16:22] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: I wouldn't object to that; the problem is that the text also says the LS is 1000 ft sphere, more than once. (Maybe measured on the outside only...)

[16:23] #knownspace> dmac44: yeah, I think it's just another one of those pesky inconsistencies

[16:24] #knownspace> Lensman: But there's a section in RC where the /Needle/ is used to push the LS, and from the acceleration given, it suggests to me that it's 1000 ft diameter. Pushing on a mile-wide sphere would... take a *lot* of energy!

[16:25] #knownspace> dmac44: is this where the LS is accelerated outward from the Control Center?

[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: No, it's where the LS is hijacked by Tunesmith, Acolyte and Louis.

[16:27] #knownspace> dmac44: ok, because in the scene I mentioned the acceleration is huge (billions of Gs). Only way Tunesmith could do it is if he reworked the magnetic linear accelerator to use Outsider drive technology.

[16:29] #knownspace> Lensman: "/Hot Needle of Inquiry/ was using full thrust to push /Long Shot/. /Needle/'s overbuilt thrusters against /Long Shot/'s sizeable mass would give, what, around ten gravities?

[16:29] #knownspace> dmac44: the scene is where Needle is accelerated from 0 to 10% light spped in 40 miles.

[16:30] #knownspace> dmac44: of course Tunesmith could have rebuilt Needle's thrusters too.

[16:30] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: That does strongly suggest inertialess acceleration, doesn't it? Apparently the Outsiders have thrusters that work this way, yes.

[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't claim it's definitive. But I can much more easily believe /Needle/'s thruster could move the LS at 10 gravities if it was 1000 ft diameter instead of 5000 ft diameter!

[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: But no, /Needle/ doesn't seem to be able to do the trick that the Outsider ship pulled in "Flatlander" where they're not there one second, and the next they've parked right alongside the /Slower Than Infinity/. That would be a *wonderful* advantage in the Fringe War!

[16:34] #knownspace> dmac44: there are other scenes where conservation laws appear to be broken. In Ringworld when Louis, Teela, et al first decelerated from 80% of light spped to zerousing just fusion energy to power thrusters means that Needle would have needed to carry one large amount of fuel.

[16:35] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: the scene I was rederring to was launching Needle from the Ringworld not manuvering after that.

[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: I assume that the Puppeteer fusion reactors in Rw are much more efficient in use of fuel than the ones in the Worlds books, and the thrusters (and cabin gravity) are much more powerful. 200 gees! when matching velocities with the Ringworld.

[16:36] #knownspace> dmac44: even with total conversion the amout of mass is huge

[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: In fact it puzzles me that the New Terran ships seem to need refueling so often. Hard to believe Puppeteer fusion tech advanced so far in 200 years, after millennia of spaceflight!

[16:38] #knownspace> Lensman: How huge, dmac?

[16:41] #knownspace> dmac44: old book Thrust Into Space. 0 to 80% light speed and back again: fusion mass of fuel about 10^8 the mass of the ship; mass annihilation about 10 times

[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Sounds like Ed is using a more rigorous math analysis of the energy required for acceleration than Larry did. In fact, the Worlds books invoke zero point energy to power the Outsider planetary drives. I regard this as being pretty much the same as "Doc" Smith's "cosmic energy". Just handwaving to create an impossible energy source.

[16:47] #knownspace> dmac44: I don't, zero point energy has a basis in physics today. I think we'll see Puppetter drive technology evolve. A couple of chat sessions ago Ed suggested that we see evolving technology between the books.

[16:48] #knownspace> Lensman: The only real zero point energy I've read about is the Casimir effect, and nobody has yet figured out how to derive energy from that.

[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: BTW Sean, how do you change topics?

[16:50] #knownspace> SeanS: whats his name had a special on the other day on discovery. talked about zero point energy powering warp drive. dont know how reliable the source as he got his big media break on coast to coast am

[16:50] #knownspace> SeanS: depends on your software

[16:50] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: true but some of the calculations imply that space-time holds huge amounts of energy.

[16:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Nevermind.

[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay. But can we ever tap it? I am very reluctant to say "never" about anything, but to me that smacks of perpetual motion, and so far the universe has been very successful as making sure none of those work.

[16:52] #knownspace> dmac44: Probably not but I guess that's why they call this science fiction. :)

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[16:52] #knownspace> SeanS: i am sure we can eventually... just as i am sure we will have reliable fusion power... pretty sure that works

[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Right. SF, yes. *Hard* SF... I'm not so sure.

[16:53] #knownspace> dmac44: fusion power in only 50 years (been that way for the last 50 years).

[16:53] #knownspace> SeanS: yeppers

[16:53] #knownspace> SeanS: just have to get the right harmonic ;)

[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Sure, I'm convinced we will *eventually* figure out how to achieve over-unity fusion. Hopefully with the Polywell within 2 years!

[16:53] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: I guess I don't view Known Space as hard SF, too many force fields, and stuff.

[16:54] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens I haven't heard of the Polywell, what is it?

[16:54] #knownspace> Lensman: What's the quote? "Fusion power has been 20 years away for the past 50 years." Something like that. And by now, it should be "...the past 60 years", or 70.

[16:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Polywell is a different sort of fusion reactor invented by Robert Bussard... yes, THAT Bussard, for Niven fans! It converts particles accelerated to relativistic velocities directly to radiation... does not require a steam engine intermediary to generate power. This was dismissed as fringe science, Bussard treated as a crackpot for decades. But the Polywell received a small Navy research...

[16:58] #knownspace> Lensman:, and recently the theory has passed a peer science review, which gave it a non-negative "pass". In other words, "We can't see why this wouldn't work", which is not the same as saying "We believe this will work."

[16:58] #knownspace> Lensman: The Polywell has had... I'm not sure, but I believe two successful prototypes, and hopefully the third prototype, already funded, will produce over-unity power.

[16:59] #knownspace> Lensman: But there are still a lot of people who think it will fail this time, so keep fingers crossed!

[16:59] #knownspace> Lensman: My impression is that mainstream science still regards it as a long-shot, altho no longer "fringe science".

[17:00] #knownspace> dmac44: thanks.

[17:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Dmac: More than you wanted to know?

[17:00] #knownspace> dmac44: nah, just enough for me to go to Wikipedia and read more.

[17:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Ooops! I said "converts particles accelerated to relativistic velocities directly to radiation". I mean "...directly to electricity". Big difference! One advantage of the Polywell is it puts out relatively little hard radiation.

[17:04] #knownspace> dmac44: even better!

[17:05] #knownspace> SeanS: yep

[17:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Polywell should be much cheaper than the current massive Tokomak or laser-blaster fusion prototypes. Frankly I'm surprised that the Polywell isn't getting more funding. If they *do* succeed with a Tokomak/ITER or laser-blaster fusion prototype plant, will they ever be able to build one cheaply enuff to be a successful commercial unit? The Polywell, if it works, should fit in a single large room.

[17:10] #knownspace> Lensman: No message from Larry saying "I tried to get in but couldn't", at least not yet.

[17:11] #knownspace> SeanS: he has something goofy with his pc. works fine from his wife's on the same connection. doesnt want to work on it either. if i could get carol to talk him in to allowing me remote access, i could fix whatever is broken

[17:13] #knownspace> SeanS: i can fully understand him not wanting to let a fan remote access into his pc ;)

[17:14] #knownspace> SeanS: i havent even broached the subject with him

[17:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, I find the situation frustrating. Larry says at times "I tried for hours to get on", which seems to indicate a high level of interest, yet he doesn't seem interested in getting anyone to look at his system to de-bug it, nor does he seem interested in installing any software which would allow him to access the chat room without having to use the Java app.

[17:22] #knownspace> SeanS: or the flash app

[17:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Er, sorry, Flash. Whatever it is.

[17:22] #knownspace> SeanS: all you have to do is type into a browser and it will ask for a nick and then log in

[17:22] #knownspace> SeanS: java and flash are both available

[17:22] #knownspace> Lensman: I thought I had to install Chatzilla in Firefox to be able to do that?

[17:23] #knownspace> SeanS: nope

[17:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Did you tell Larry that, Sean?

[17:23] #knownspace> SeanS: we are beta testing a flash client called eris. will load from any browser as long as flash is installed. give it a try

[17:24] #knownspace> SeanS: i think so

[17:24] #knownspace> Lensman: I will run and try it on the other machine here, which doesn't have firefox.

[17:24] #knownspace> SeanS: go ahead

[17:24] #knownspace> SeanS:

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[17:27] #knownspace> SeanS: wb

[17:28] #knownspace> Fred: did known space have force fields before the current 'of worlds' series?

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[17:29] #knownspace> LensmanTwin: Test

[17:29] #knownspace> SeanS: works

[17:29] #knownspace> dmac44: Fred: yes

[17:29] #knownspace> SeanS: status report on the flash client lens?

[17:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Looked different than what I see, so I guess ChatZilla allows my FireFox to access it a different way. Dunno the details of course, but I'm guessing ChatZilla is not Flash driven.

[17:31] #knownspace> SeanS: the eris flash client is its own thing and is browser independent

[17:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Well you can see it worked just fine, and it only took a very few seconds to access.

[17:31] #knownspace> SeanS: add it to the chat notification if you dont mind

[17:31] #knownspace> Lensman: I'll stick with ChatZilla, because I prefer the look, but not because Eris doesn't work.

[17:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, I will do that. Just a note that you can type in to access the chat, is that what you'd like me to do?

[17:33] #knownspace> SeanS: just add it to the 'how the chat can be accessed' section. your choice... i am currently not taking list delivery so it is up to you

[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Copy in my announcements currently reads:

[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: For those of you who use IRC it's at <>. This will

[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: load an IRC "Flash" client, ask for a nickname and connect directly to

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[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: the chat room.

[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyone whose browser supports IRC can probably get to the chat by

[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: clicking on this link (or pasting it to their browser if clicking

[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: from your email client doesn't work).

[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Oops

[17:36] #knownspace> SeanS: instead of the ip number, anybody using a chat client like mirc or opera or whatever can just add a server called and it will log on as well.

[17:36] #knownspace> Fred_IRC_test: works directly in FireFox here

[17:36] #knownspace> Lensman: For those of you who use IRC it's at <>. This will load an IRC "Flash" client, ask for a nickname and connect directly to the chat room. // Anyone whose browser supports IRC can probably get to the chat by clicking on this link (or pasting it to their browser if clicking from your email client doesn't work).

[17:36] #knownspace> Lensman: So I'm not sure that you're really suggesting any change.

[17:37] #knownspace> SeanS: so i must of already emailed you and you changed it and forgot

[17:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay. Well I found it a bit frustrating that I asked on the list for advice on how to word the instructions, but no one answered. I guess I should have sent a copy of that to you Sean, I didn't realize you were not getting list mail.

[17:39] #knownspace> SeanS: got too much stuff going on to wade through list mail right now

[17:39] #knownspace> SeanS: whatcha think, fred?

[17:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Force fields: Yes. Police field, which is a variation on the crash field, used in "The Soft Weapon" and various B.S. stories. Also, the "pressure curtain" in "The Soft Weapon" which kept air in the ship with the airlock open.

[17:40] #knownspace> SeanS: you can probaly count 'sonic fold' from the flycycles in with that as well

[17:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Crash field is used in "Grendel" when Bey crashes his aircar against the /Drunkard's Walk/. Crash field also mentioned in "Neutron Star" if I recall correctly.

[17:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanx Sean, I had forgotten that.

[17:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Sonic fold also mentioned in "The Handicapped" for the flycycles used there.

[17:43] #knownspace> Lensman: You could argue the stasis field is a force field, altho it takes a conductive surface to carry it-- you can't project it into the air.

[17:43] #knownspace> dmac44: I'm signing off. See you all next year! Happy holidays.

[17:43] #knownspace> SeanS: i would agree that stasis is a force field. like electriciy it just goes around the outside of a cunducter

[17:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Merry Xmas dmac!

[17:44] #knownspace> SeanS: later dmac

[17:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Or Happy Holidays.

[17:44] #knownspace> SeanS: happy celebration of the winter solstice

[17:47] #knownspace> SeanS: how about the flash client, Fred... whatcha think?

[17:52] #knownspace> SeanS: dang cold outside... thinking about bringing in some wood and having a fire

[17:53] #knownspace> Akiraa: Ringworld has all the makings of a money-making movie: sex, travel, adventure, action

[17:53] #knownspace> SeanS: niven himself goofed that one up i think

[17:54] #knownspace> Akiraa: I don't see how Hollywood can ruin Ringworld if they go at it

[17:57] #knownspace> SeanS: i am sure they can

[17:57] #knownspace> SeanS: they fuck up everything else ;)

[17:57] #knownspace> SeanS: look at hitchhiker for reference

[17:59] #knownspace> Akiraa: hitchhiker is difficult to talk about without using the book itself

[17:59] #knownspace> SeanS: have you ever seen or heard the bbc versions from the 70's?

[17:59] #knownspace> Akiraa: lots of textual undertones, hard to transpose into film

[18:00] #knownspace> Akiraa: but ringworld is a straight adventure story

[18:00] #knownspace> SeanS: if you havent, i will provide them

[18:00] #knownspace> Akiraa: no, haven't seen the BBC version

[18:01] #knownspace> SeanS: email me at and i will hook you up. you will be incredibly surprised at the difference

[18:01] #knownspace> Akiraa: I know the book is based on an old BBC radio series

[18:02] #knownspace> SeanS: yes

[18:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: you're talking about that?

[18:02] #knownspace> SeanS: i have both

[18:03] #knownspace> SeanS: actually, i have the original 12 ep radio series the book came from. the bbc 6 ep tv series, and the series called tertiary phase that gets into some of the later books

[18:03] #knownspace> Akiraa: hm... the series appears to be up on torrents

[18:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, I enjoyed the BBC miniseries of "Hitchhiker" very much. Very imaginative use of low budget and cheap FX.

[18:03] #knownspace> SeanS: your choice... i can upload at about 62K/s

[18:04] #knownspace> SeanS: cheap but effective

[18:04] #knownspace> Akiraa: let me see how fast this torrent is

[18:04] #knownspace> SeanS: frankly, more effective than the hollywood version

[18:04] #knownspace> Lensman: How could you mess up a "Ringworld" movie? Easy, just dumb it waaay down, like the Siffy Channel did to "Riverworld".

[18:04] #knownspace> Akiraa: unless you have a FTP server you can leave unattended

[18:04] #knownspace> SeanS: and the acting is significantly better

[18:04] #knownspace> SeanS: i do have an FTP

[18:05] #knownspace> SeanS: acting better in bbc that is

[18:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, it is.

[18:08] #knownspace> SeanS: moving files to ftp

[18:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: yeah, torrent is pretty slow

[18:16] #knownspace> SeanS: check private... radio show is available... looking for tv show

[18:18] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace

[18:26] #knownspace> Fred: irc client was very slow to load and of course looks a lot different, with fewer options, but once it was running, performance seemed identical

[18:27] #knownspace> SeanS: well, it loads off me. max upload speed for me is 62K/s. if i am doing something online that will be less

[18:28] #knownspace> SeanS: that=then

[18:28] #knownspace> Fred: Lensman, "Riverworld" goes directly to my reply that 'by the time you change it that much you may as well call it something else'

[18:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes. Altho there were are least some recognizable elements left. Compare "Flash Gordon", which had nothing left but the names of a few characters. I don't even consider it a travesty-- it's totally unrelated to the original story.

[18:30] #knownspace> SeanS: hey, richard obrien was in flash gordon... back off

[18:30] #knownspace> Fred: not that flash

[18:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred, I'm trying to remember-- did "Riverworld" have the grails and the grailstones?

[18:31] #knownspace> Fred: he means the SciFi channel series of about 2 years ago

[18:31] #knownspace> SeanS: oh... must suck then

[18:31] #knownspace> Fred: Um ... I don't recall

[18:31] #knownspace> Fred: I remember horses and metal swords

[18:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, I meant the very recent Siffy channel "Flash Gordon", which had no spaceships.

[18:31] #knownspace> Fred: Sean, imagine doing Flash (ahhh-ahhh) on the cheap

[18:32] #knownspace> Fred: by setting it on Earth

[18:32] #knownspace> Fred: and dropping the spaceships

[18:32] #knownspace> Fred: instead have portals that lead to Mongo which resembles a shopping mall underground parking lot

[18:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, horses and all kinds of metal acouterments and weapons... none of which would have been possible in the actual story.

[18:32] #knownspace> SeanS: i remember the ultrabad riverwolrd miniseries on scifi but dont remember them doing flash

[18:33] #knownspace> Fred: Riverworld was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Flash

[18:33] #knownspace> Lensman: I wish I had the Puppeteer memory removal system, so I could remove my memories of both Siffy series.

[18:33] #knownspace> SeanS: wow... then flash must of sucked like a black hole

[18:33] #knownspace> Fred: yes

[18:33] #knownspace> Lensman: And the "Earthsea" travesty, too.

[18:34] #knownspace> Fred: they had an entire episode set at a wedding on earth, in a field, just some tables and extras in a field

[18:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Well I think "Riverworld" was worse, but then Fred and I rarely agree on the quality of films.

[18:34] #knownspace> Fred: and the goofy black sidekick got bit by a Mongo bug that made him shuck and jive

[18:35] #knownspace> SeanS: as i understand it, they come up with a title that sounds good then figure out a script... that cant be good

[18:35] #knownspace> Fred: an entire hour of goofy black sidekick shucking and jiving in a field with a few tables and extras

[18:35] #knownspace> Fred: that's FLASH

[18:35] #knownspace> SeanS: wow... i would be hard pressed not to shoot my remote for letting me see that

[18:35] #knownspace> Fred: I think Riverworld wouldn't have sucked too badly if you didn't have any knowledge of the original

[18:36] #knownspace> Fred: FLASH sucked no matter what your experience level

[18:36] #knownspace> Fred: The Hawkmen didn't have wings, they had black leather

[18:36] #knownspace> SeanS: i have read all the riverworld books so it really sucked

[18:36] #knownspace> Fred: yes

[18:37] #knownspace> Fred: and unecessarily so

[18:37] #knownspace> SeanS: so the ahhh ahhhhh flash was significantly better then scifi;s version

[18:37] #knownspace> Fred: oh, yes

[18:37] #knownspace> Lensman: However, it sounds like Fred has watched much more of those than I have, so his opinion is more informed. I had absolutely no desire to watch more of "Flash" after the pilot.

[18:38] #knownspace> SeanS: i think i watched about 5 minutes of flash now that you say pilot and i turned it off

[18:38] #knownspace> Fred: Lens, Flash got worse and worse, and then started to get better, and by the finale had improved to merely being banal with possibilities

[18:38] #knownspace> Fred: Then they renewed it, and it was never seen again. No new eps, no reruns, nothing. Vanished as if it had never existed.

[18:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Certainly the 1980 FG was almost infinitely better. Aside from the dumb main character and the football motif, it was a pretty good movie. I especially liked Von Sydow as Ming, and I loved the baroque spaceships! The Queen score, though... was an acquired taste which I never acquired.

[18:38] #knownspace> SeanS: fred, do you subject yourself to this stuff just to give out bad reviews? i appreciate it but you dont have to do that to yourself

[18:39] #knownspace> Fred: I can learn as much from a bad film as a good one Sean

[18:39] #knownspace> SeanS: you have to love the queen music

[18:39] #knownspace> Fred: I have different viewpoints thna strictly entertainment

[18:39] #knownspace> SeanS: gotcha fred

[18:40] #knownspace> Fred: but like Stargate SGU I bailed on early

[18:41] #knownspace> SeanS: i have only watched stargate a couple of time

[18:41] #knownspace> SeanS: s

[18:41] #knownspace> Fred: Riverworld suffered from the same problems that a Ringworld movie would if it followed the suggested changes on the list

[18:42] #knownspace> Fred: change enough of the base without regard to the repercussions, and book 2 becomes impossible to film

[18:42] #knownspace> SeanS: i agree

[18:42] #knownspace> SeanS: i couldnt see anyway to do the second book in riverworld

[18:43] #knownspace> Fred: It's been too long for me; what happens in the second book? (I've read them all, just been decades)

[18:43] #knownspace> Lensman: I honestly thought... who was it, Allan?... was kidding with the suggested changes to Rw. Why turn it into just another dumb chase movie set on a weird world?

[18:43] #knownspace> Fred: I think that's $1

[18:43] #knownspace> Akiraa: SG:U looked like it had some potential, not sure yet on a definitive verdict

[18:44] #knownspace> Lensman: The second book is /The Fabulous Riverboat/, which should jog your memory!

[18:44] #knownspace> Fred: and Uwe's suggestion of how to make it into 6 movies (or was that Albedo?)

[18:44] #knownspace> Fred: and entire movie set after Nessus gets his head chopped off

[18:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, /To Your Scattered Bodies Go/ was first in the Riverworld series.

[18:44] #knownspace> SeanS: it has been a long time for me and riverworld

[18:45] #knownspace> Fred: Let's see; they spend months over a desert and drop through a hole, the end

[18:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, the idea of six movies... well, I did manage to resist pointing out how silly that was. I'd say something stronger than "Silly", but these chats *are* archived.

[18:45] #knownspace> Fred: hee hee

[18:45] #knownspace> SeanS: yes... knownspaceARM now archives all chats

[18:47] #knownspace> Fred: so what happens in FAB Riverboat that would be hard to film?

[18:47] #knownspace> SeanS: well, chats in all channels i tell him to... thats this one and ed's chat when he has them

[18:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, the second book has the metallic asteroid crashing into the landscape, it cuts off all the grailstones on one bank, and after about 3 days everybody on the other side of the river, who are now starving, attacks the side with working grailstones en masse. Then there's the project to build the Riverboat, and the political machinations of King John, and the participation by those with...

[18:47] #knownspace> Lensman: ...advanced tech to build the "batacitor" driven Riverboat.

[18:47] #knownspace> SeanS: cant think of anything but its been a long time

[18:48] #knownspace> SeanS: capacitor i think you mean

[18:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Nothing by itself, Sean, but the first movie so messed up the continuity that the second plot wouldn't make sense.

[18:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Er, Fred not Sean sorry.

[18:48] #knownspace> Fred: well, the riverboat was done by the end of the first scifi movie

[18:49] #knownspace> Fred: and you've got metal

[18:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Did they build it? I had forgotten. Actually I'm not at all sure I watched all of that abysmal turkey, I may have shut it off before the end.

[18:49] #knownspace> Fred: so, yeah, there's no point in filming book 2 at all

[18:49] #knownspace> Fred: Yes, the movie ends with the finished riverboat

[18:50] #knownspace> Lensman: But remember, King John stole the first one, and Sam Clemens had to build a second, and then spent the next book chasing him.

[18:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Well as far as I'm concerned, a Riverworld with horses and commonly available metal isn't even worth bothering with. It's a completely different set of assumptions for a world background.

[18:51] #knownspace> SeanS: the scifi movie riverworld supposedly encompassed the first 2 books and there was only one boat... clemens had to fight people off, mainly nero, but clemens maintained control of the boat at the end

[18:51] #knownspace> Fred: A TV series loosely based on the Riverworld saga went into production for the Sci Fi Channel in 2001 but only the feature length pilot episode Riverworld was completed. It was first aired in 2003. It used elements from To Your Scattered Bodies Go and The Fabulous Riverboat, though it replaced the books' hero, Sir Richard Burton, with an American astronaut and King John of England with Nero as the villain. This pilot is available online th

[18:52] #knownspace> SeanS: it hurts me to say this lens, but i agree... i was turned off the moment i saw horses

[18:52] #knownspace> Lensman: I presume they dumped the idea of "no metal" simply so they could use rented costumes and props, instead of having to make them. And they cut out the opening to the story, which in the stupid movie starts several months after people wake up on the Riverworld.

[18:52] #knownspace> Fred: well, our hero wakes up, I assume, years after other people

[18:53] #knownspace> Fred: being as they had castles and flup

[18:53] #knownspace> Fred: ack

[18:53] #knownspace> Fred: A 4-hour TV movie is being produced for 2010 release by Syfy (formerly The Sci-fi Channel)[2], written by Robert Hewitt Wolfe. The protagonist will be Matt Ellman, an American war reporter, played by Tahmoh Penikett.

[18:53] #knownspace> Lensman: OMG I didn't even remember they replaced Richard Burton! Oh oh oh... can we change the subject, this is too painful to contemplate!

[18:53] #knownspace> Fred: WHAT'S WRONG WITH RICHARD BURTON?

[18:54] #knownspace> SeanS: btw, fred, keep watching shit on scifi, i really enjoy your reviews

[18:54] #knownspace> Fred: :)

[18:54] #knownspace> Fred: one day I'll hunker down and finish MEGA SHARK VS GIANT OCTOPUS

[18:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred's reviews are usually pretty entertaining.

[18:54] #knownspace> SeanS: but you need to start emailing to me directly as i am not taking list delivery at this time

[18:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Damnit! MS vs GO was on TV and I missed it! It was on the same night as one of my Laser Rangers sessions, and it wasn't repeated later that nite! ARRRGH!

[18:55] #knownspace> Akiraa: Is there a link to Fred's reviews?

[18:55] #knownspace> Fred: no

[18:55] #knownspace> Akiraa: :(

[18:55] #knownspace> Fred: if you want to read the one for EARTHSTORM I can URL you

[18:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: No, he posts them to the Larry Niven discussion list.

[18:56] #knownspace> SeanS: the earthstorm one is awesome

[18:56] #knownspace> Lensman: I should say, pretty entertaining unless it's something I actually liked.

[18:56] #knownspace> SeanS: akiraa... fred owns a special effects company and is in the know about hollyweird

[18:57] #knownspace> Fred:

[18:57] #knownspace> Akiraa: There's a Niven bulletin board or news server?

[18:57] #knownspace> Akiraa: ah, interesting

[18:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: E-mail discussion list. Be warned it's fairly high volume.

[18:57] #knownspace> Fred: ooo, somebody sign Akiraa up!

[18:58] #knownspace> SeanS: he recently had his stuff show up in a discovery channel special about JFK

[18:58] #knownspace> Akiraa:

[18:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Info here:

[18:58] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! But Fred made JFK's limo three inches too narrow. <Lensman ducks>

[18:58] #knownspace> Fred: yep

[18:59] #knownspace> Fred: I should have archived that conspiracy site

[18:59] #knownspace> SeanS: heh

[18:59] #knownspace> Akiraa: as long as the messages are formatted in some way, mail filters can move them in the appropriate separate folder

[19:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Seriously, Fred did a meticulous reconstruction of the presidential limo for a special on JFK assassination, and apparently some dimwits tried to say that the reconstruction was inaccurate because the digital model was too narrow. Fred was... not pleased.

[19:00] #knownspace> SeanS: be warned, akiraa, if you sign up to the list, you will be among astronomers, phisicists and other technical specialties that i cant even type. very lively

[19:01] #knownspace> SeanS: i cant say much about it myself. i was asked to run this irc server from the guy that showed up in Footfall as Harry Reddington. how could i say no?

[19:02] #knownspace> Lensman: But it's become a running joke that everything Fred works on has a digital model that's three inches too narrow. We even suggested that a Ringworld model was three inches too narrow. (Not that anyone would notice...)

[19:02] #knownspace> SeanS: 3 inches short of a million miles? i would think not

[19:03] #knownspace> Lensman: I think I suggested the moon was, too, once. And that's rather smaller in diameter!

[19:03] #knownspace> Akiraa: ok, subscription is up

[19:04] #knownspace> Fred: My Ringworld model was actually 93,000,000 miles in diameter

[19:04] #knownspace> Fred: you could do stuff like that in Electric Image

[19:04] #knownspace> SeanS: lots of interesting conversations on there when they dont digress into other stuff. there is a link to topic drift that involves us... anyone have it?

[19:05] #knownspace> SeanS: .g topic drift

[19:05] #knownspace> Outsider: SeanS:

[19:06] #knownspace> SeanS: thats not the one

[19:06] #knownspace> SeanS: outsider just gives the first response

[19:06] #knownspace> SeanS: .g topic drift niven

[19:06] #knownspace> Outsider: SeanS:

[19:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: Anyone built a procedural, navigable model of ringworld?

[19:07] #knownspace> Fred: okay, this is just to make Lensman's head explode:

[19:07] #knownspace> Fred: A number of liberties are taken in the film with regards to the source material. The original hero and villain are replaced by other characters, the timeline of events is compressed (including the learning of languages which is eliminated entirely), and the nature of the resurrection process and food and clothing production are altered. Instead of a single meteor of iron, a "valley of meteors" with a constant stream of small falling objec

[19:07] #knownspace> SeanS: Often used in gentle reminders that the discussion has strayed off any useful track. "I think we started with a question about Niven's last book, but we've ended up discussing the sexual habits of the common marmoset. Now *that's* topic drift!"

[19:08] #knownspace> SeanS: akiraa, yes. well to a point

[19:09] #knownspace> Akiraa: So far played with a Celestia mod, but Celestia can't handle huge objects that well

[19:09] #knownspace> SeanS: a guy emailed us wanting us to look at a sim he had made with celestia i think... tis pretty good. dont have a copy on this pc but i will dig through email and see if i can find it

[19:10] #knownspace> Akiraa: I think I have the same one

[19:10] #knownspace> SeanS: he sent links to lo and hi res versions

[19:10] #knownspace> Akiraa: yep, that one

[19:11] #knownspace> SeanS: wont bother then

[19:11] #knownspace> SeanS: fred, i think that description gives that movie too much justice

[19:12] #knownspace> Lensman: -/He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him! I'll chase him round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give him up!/

[19:12] #knownspace> SeanS: nabir

[19:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, that was a fairly neutral review of "Riverworld", it doesn't get into just how abysmal the production values, the acting, the direction, and everything else was.

[19:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean: I copied that from Memory Alpha, I make no claims for the accuracy.

[19:15] #knownspace> Akiraa: Why did Larry Niven decline the offer of the Halo novel?

[19:15] #knownspace> SeanS: i watched a bit of it yesterday and it is not nabia... send a correction

[19:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Sending a correction to a Trek fan site? This exceeds my interest level. Heck I don't even bother to correct Wikipedia on Niven trivia.

[19:16] #knownspace> Lensman: I hadn't heard Niven was offered a contract to write a Halo novel.

[19:17] #knownspace> Akiraa:

[19:17] #knownspace> SeanS: i reckon i will delete you from my minion list then.... dang i have got you to do everything else i aksed. ;)

[19:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, let me restate: I don't *always* try to correct mistakes on Wikipedia regarding Niven trivia. I have a few times. The paragraph on "Canonicity" in the MKW article is mine, or was until others added to it.

[19:18] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! Sorry, Sean, I didn't realize I was a minion.

[19:18] #knownspace> Akiraa: "The gist is that Microsoft sent him an Xbox and a copy of Halo, hoping he would write a Halo novel." :D

[19:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Right, because Larry doesn't have anything better to do with his time, and he's desperate for money... NOT!!

[19:19] #knownspace> SeanS: you post the chat notice for me and requested doing it.... minion ;)

[19:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean: Honestly I don't remember requesting the priviledge (sp?) of doing it. What I remember is you asking me.

[19:21] #knownspace> SeanS: wait one

[19:21] #knownspace> SeanS: dont know why i bother, you never actually read anything

[19:21] #knownspace> Lensman: privilege

[19:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Are we having an argument? I didn't mean to say anything to antagonize you, Sean. I'm quite happy to do it.

[19:31] #knownspace> Akiraa: Thanks for the mp3's, SeanS

[19:32] #knownspace> Akiraa: I'll be off for now

[19:32] #knownspace> SeanS: Sean asked me to send out the announcement, so here it is...

[19:33] #knownspace> SeanS: from lensman to the larryniven list 11/29/07

[19:33] #knownspace> SeanS: not an argument... just proving a point

[19:34] #knownspace> Lensman: What point?

[19:34] #knownspace> SeanS: that you are my minion

[19:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay.

[19:40] #knownspace> SeanS: heh

[19:41] Growler has joined #knownspace

[19:42] #knownspace> SeanS: hi euan

[19:42] #knownspace> Growler: hi

[19:42] #knownspace> SeanS: sup buddy?

[19:42] #knownspace> Growler: not muhc. got up earlier to watch the All Blacks vs Barbarian game in UK.

[19:42] #knownspace> Growler: Now it's just a lazy overcast Sunday.

[19:42] #knownspace> Growler: About to have pancakes for brunch

[19:43] #knownspace> SeanS: be happy it is summer there. fucking cold here

[19:43] #knownspace> SeanS: going to cook breakfast in the morning then do beer can chicken in the afternoon for dinner

[19:44] #knownspace> Growler: eh, summer's been teasing us. we've had two excellent tempting periods of fine weather only to have them replaced by cold, dim weather

[19:45] #knownspace> SeanS: well, it is flirting with 20 degrees F here tonight... about to go grab some wood and start a fire

[19:45] #knownspace> Growler: a week ago it was, oh, i dunno, mid-eighties archaic fahrentheight here.

[19:46] #knownspace> SeanS: i envy you... i want a lot more global warming

[19:46] #knownspace> Growler: right now it's mid-50's

[19:46] #knownspace> SeanS: i would take mid 50's right now

[19:46] #knownspace> Growler: global warming just means more weather changes for us island types

[19:47] #knownspace> SeanS: i know but i would love about 30 degrees of global warming in the winter, about 10 degrees of global cooling in the summer and a nice global breeze. ;)

[19:48] #knownspace> Growler: you could move to cali-forn-e-ya where it's always the same

[19:49] #knownspace> SeanS: hell with that... i want the island life. any decent jobs over there on the far side of the world?

[19:51] #knownspace> Growler: hmmm, well, by all accounts we aren't suffering overly much from the recession thing. Compoany I'm contracting with (Radio manufactuer) has just had it's best year ever.

[19:51] #knownspace> Growler: Where I live isn't the tropical end of the islands either

[19:51] #knownspace> Growler: However the warm end is where all the people and work is.

[19:51] #knownspace> Growler: Problem is around here that also means the wet end

[19:55] #knownspace> Growler: mmmmmm, pancakes and peaches

[19:56] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace

[19:59] mlseagull has joined #knownspace

[20:00] #knownspace> mlseagull: hello

[20:01] #knownspace> mlseagull: thanks for the tip on out of print books, Sean

[20:02] #knownspace> mlseagull: hmmm...since we know they had hunting agreements with the Jinxian government, one can presume they sense a great deal

[20:03] #knownspace> mlseagull: A better question might be How do they sense

[20:04] #knownspace> mlseagull: they have a sensor cluster on top, but does it sense visual light, sonic waves, gamma rays,

[20:04] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What were the goals of building them intelligent anyways? Did the (name escapes me) make them to rebel against the slavers or what?

[20:04] #knownspace> mlseagull: gravity shifts?

[20:05] #knownspace> mlseagull: I understand they were built intelliigent by the tnuctip to act as spys

[20:06] #knownspace> mlseagull: And resistant to the slavers power

[20:06] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok i see. Then the tnuctip might have made them able to read minds, right?

[20:07] #knownspace> mlseagull: Entirely possible, since te slavers relied on mind power

[20:07] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah

[20:08] #knownspace> mlseagull: Then maybe the question becomes, is reading minds an electomagnectic function?

[20:09] #knownspace> CCulpepper: it could be some unknown interaction on the sub-atomic level.

[20:09] #knownspace> mlseagull: Since our brain neurons use electricity, it need not be that complex

[20:10] #knownspace> CCulpepper: maybe it involves somehow hijacking those electrical pulses

[20:10] #knownspace> mlseagull: I am trying to think how you make an intelligent being lke the bandersnatch immune to that

[20:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: protien shielding around the brain case?

[20:11] #knownspace> mlseagull: maybe their systems run on something besides electromagnet energy

[20:12] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah, but wouldnt that use diferent "hardware", so it would not taste like brains?

[20:12] #knownspace> mlseagull: an interesting point

[20:13] #knownspace> mlseagull: and if they use different hardware, they couldn't hijack electrical impulses

[20:14] #knownspace> mlseagull: Same argument for protein shielding

[20:14] #knownspace> CCulpepper: or the bandersnachi just use a lot of redundacy in their mental "processes", and if two "messages" didnt arive, the brain would ignore them.

[20:14] #knownspace> mlseagull: If no one can get in, how can they get out

[20:15] #knownspace> mlseagull: similar to ping packets you mean?

[20:15] #knownspace> CCulpepper: if they had a hyperwave tranciever, the slavers would not scence it.

[20:15] #knownspace> CCulpepper: sure close to ping packets.

[20:16] #knownspace> mlseagull: where would they hide it?

[20:16] #knownspace> mlseagull: remember they have no hands

[20:17] #knownspace> CCulpepper: maybe the tnicitup poses it as some kind of internal organ.

[20:17] #knownspace> mlseagull: possibly, but bandersnatch continued to multiply after the war

[20:18] #knownspace> mlseagull: they are immune to mutation

[20:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper: maybe if they had brain shielding it protected them from the "blast"

[20:19] #knownspace> mlseagull: wouldn't someone have noticed a hyperwave mechanism

[20:19] #knownspace> mlseagull: It would have to retractable

[20:19] #knownspace> mlseagull: so they could spy

[20:20] #knownspace> CCulpepper: maybe it used one of the "clogged" bands, not the cold H bands, and the interferience on those bands is a tnicup conspiricay.

[20:21] #knownspace> mlseagull: and strong enough to make them immune to final order to commit suicide to every other sentient creature in the galaxy at that time

[20:21] #knownspace> mlseagull: That presupposes the tnuctip are still around

[20:22] #knownspace> mlseagull: or over a billion years the mechanism that caused the interference would have disintegrated

[20:23] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But what if it was on automatic?, and somewhere in the middle of empty sace?

[20:23] #knownspace> mlseagull: Seen the outline for a similar story in N-space

[20:24] #knownspace> mlseagull: Even in empty space, there are hydrogen atoms, cosmic rays

[20:24] #knownspace> mlseagull: other things that will cause degredation

[20:24] #knownspace> CCulpepper: what if the tnicup invented a GP hull?

[20:24] #knownspace> CCulpepper: that would last, and they could do it.

[20:25] #knownspace> mlseagull: possible, but unlikely

[20:25] #knownspace> mlseagull: they wer experts in bioengineering

[20:25] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Then the outsiders found it, decoded it, and sold it to the pupeteers?

[20:25] #knownspace> mlseagull: not in mechanics

[20:26] #knownspace> CCulpepper: or the bandersnachi were used as giant computing devices.

[20:26] #knownspace> mlseagull: the outsiders certainly could and would

[20:26] #knownspace> mlseagull: coded into their genetic material

[20:27] #knownspace> mlseagull: that could work

[20:27] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah, or buitlt a slaver-like telepathy machine

[20:27] #knownspace> mlseagull: anti-telepathy!

[20:28] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah you could, just jam the signals. Mabe the one they uses to use the bandersnach as a computer was a prototype.

[20:29] #knownspace> CCulpepper: for their suicide device.

[20:29] #knownspace> mlseagull: I wonder if they simply built systems similar to the outsiders, but built to withstand heat and pressure

[20:29] #knownspace> mlseagull: Outsiders survived it too

[20:30] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ten their could sitll be tnicup.

[20:30] #knownspace> mlseagull: Wasn't it the slavers that ordered the suicide?

[20:30] #knownspace> CCulpepper: and the suicide pulse is still expoanding!

[20:30] #knownspace> CCulpepper: oh wait it was. darn.

[20:31] #knownspace> mlseagull: No, remember we found evidence that all life committed suicide already

[20:31] #knownspace> mlseagull: so it is not expanding still

[20:31] #knownspace> mlseagull: except possibly beyond our galaxy

[20:31] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok, then that would imply that the telepathy has a range.

[20:32] #knownspace> mlseagull: but wasn't there one tnuctip found, I think it was in the soft weapon, that had a shield?

[20:33] #knownspace> CCulpepper: i think that that was in a stacis field.

[20:33] #knownspace> CCulpepper: and there was, but he died.

[20:33] #knownspace> mlseagull: They found the soft weapon in a stasis box, but also some kind of headgear

[20:34] #knownspace> mlseagull: I think you are thinking of te taiser being

[20:34] #knownspace> mlseagull: that came out alive

[20:35] #knownspace> mlseagull: This was just some equipment

[20:35] #knownspace> mlseagull: including a strange cap

[20:35] #knownspace> mlseagull: that was made of material they couldn't identify

[20:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: oh yah. its been so long since i read it. But wouldnt the cap have been destroyed, if i am remembering correectly?

[20:36] #knownspace> mlseagull: no, it was packed in the stasis field, and Nessus destroyed the Kzin

[20:36] #knownspace> mlseagull: so we took it all home

[20:36] #knownspace> CCulpepper: so it went back into the stacis field?

[20:36] #knownspace> mlseagull: But it implies they did know of a shield against the slaver power

[20:37] #knownspace> mlseagull: that maybe was bred into the bandersnatch?

[20:38] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah it does. maybe the bandersnach were able to turn off their mental processes.

[20:39] #knownspace> CCulpepper: and when they "heard" that the slavers were going to kill everything they did.

[20:39] #knownspace> mlseagull: Right! and being in that state non-sentent, they were immune

[20:40] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah! the telepathy would only effect the higher brain, so they would not be affected! Then there is how they were able to reproduse after...

[20:40] #knownspace> mlseagull: As Larry points out, you need not be sentient to breed

[20:40] #knownspace> mlseagull: or rishatha

[20:41] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah but tdidnt wernt the slavers able to controll non-sentient creatures?

[20:41] #knownspace> mlseagull: no

[20:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ok then! the bandersnachi just lowered thier intelligence to below the level of telepatht.

[20:42] #knownspace> mlseagull: that's why they used the tnuctip to bioengineer for them

[20:43] #knownspace> mlseagull: Sounds right to me!

[20:43] #knownspace> CCulpepper: that does make sence. Wait they controlled the sun-flowers

[20:43] #knownspace> mlseagull: no, the tnuctip did, and also the rocket trees

[20:44] #knownspace> mlseagull: but the slavers controlled the tnuctip, for awhile

[20:44] #knownspace> CCulpepper: oh wait yah they did. i just remember the slavers using sun-flowers as defence

[20:44] #knownspace> mlseagull: as controlled by the tnuctip

[20:45] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah i forgot.

[20:45] #knownspace> mlseagull: Plus they were bioengineered not to need manipulation

[20:45] #knownspace> mlseagull: just plant and run

[20:45] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But how did the tnicup escape the slavers?

[20:45] #knownspace> mlseagull: they didn't really

[20:46] #knownspace> mlseagull: they just finally had enough power with their

[20:46] #knownspace> mlseagull: bioengineered spys and such that they wer able to war

[20:46] #knownspace> mlseagull: until the slavers were forced to kill everyone to escape

[20:47] #knownspace> mlseagull: then without any slaves, the slavers died too

[20:47] #knownspace> mlseagull: they were powerful, but not very smart

[20:47] #knownspace> CCulpepper: but wouldnt the slavers find out about they trechery before they went to war?

[20:48] #knownspace> mlseagull: Thus the need for the cap

[20:48] #knownspace> CCulpepper: what did the cap do?

[20:48] #knownspace> mlseagull: sheilded their thoughts from slavers

[20:49] #knownspace> CCulpepper: oh isee now!

[20:50] #knownspace> CCulpepper: if the slavers knew that they were going to die, then they might have put a fleet in stacis, set to turn off in one second, putting them 1 billion years ahead, able to carve out an empire!

[20:50] #knownspace> mlseagull: Yah, too bad

[20:50] #knownspace> mlseagull: smile

[20:51] #knownspace> mlseagull: Like I said not very bright

[20:51] #knownspace> CCulpepper: wouldnt that put them at about the earth- hyper-drive era?

[20:51] #knownspace> mlseagull: Yup

[20:51] #knownspace> mlseagull: too bad they didn't think of it

[20:52] #knownspace> CCulpepper: so that proves that they most-probably didnt.

[20:52] #knownspace> mlseagull: they weren't very good at building

[20:52] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah they just had thier slaves do it.

[20:52] #knownspace> mlseagull: they neede there slaves to plant and cultivate food

[20:52] #knownspace> mlseagull: yup

[20:53] #knownspace> CCulpepper: and for bio-engineering.

[20:53] #knownspace> mlseagull: So did we decide what it was a bandersnatch can sense?

[20:54] #knownspace> mlseagull: lol

[20:54] #knownspace> CCulpepper: hyper-waves, the whole EM range, and thoughts.

[20:54] #knownspace> mlseagull: works for me

[20:55] #knownspace> CCulpepper: and maybe other unknown bands that are imposible to our physice :)

[20:56] #knownspace> mlseagull: maybe they can even sense the strong and weak forces

[20:56] #knownspace> CCulpepper: that i would think would get kind of useless, unless sensing radiation, and half-lives.

[20:57] #knownspace> mlseagull: say, if we had bandersnatch around now, could they find that higgs boson?

[20:57] #knownspace> mlseagull: It would tell the the pattern of matter all around them

[20:57] #knownspace> mlseagull: And they were long lived

[20:57] #knownspace> CCulpepper: thats the atoms "talking" to each-other right?

[20:58] #knownspace> mlseagull: maybe half-lives were useful info for them

[20:58] #knownspace> mlseagull: it gives the charge to matter particles

[20:58] #knownspace> CCulpepper: or they could alter them! That would be an amazing weapon!

[20:58] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok i see

[20:59] #knownspace> mlseagull: maybe we're wrong

[20:59] #knownspace> mlseagull: maybe it wasn't the slavers that killed everyone

[20:59] #knownspace> mlseagull: after all, only the bandersnatch were left

[20:59] #knownspace> mlseagull: the only sentient species

[20:59] #knownspace> CCulpepper: maybe it was the outsiders because the slavers tried to enslave them

[21:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper: what about the grogs?

[21:00] #knownspace> mlseagull: hmmm...but they were afrai

[21:00] #knownspace> mlseagull: d

[21:00] #knownspace> mlseagull: some speculate mutated slavers

[21:00] #knownspace> mlseagull: but they were the wrong sex

[21:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper: the slavers, the outsiders, or the grogs?

[21:01] #knownspace> mlseagull: the grogs were afraid

[21:01] #knownspace> CCulpepper: maybe they are dissidents

[21:01] #knownspace> CCulpepper: seperated by diferent evolutions.

[21:01] #knownspace> mlseagull: but theeir are more females than males

[21:01] #knownspace> mlseagull: remeber the grog males are non-sentient

[21:02] #knownspace> mlseagull: and we found a slaver on the ocean bottom

[21:02] nedry has joined #knownspace

[21:02] #knownspace> mlseagull: so we know they had sentient males

[21:02] #knownspace> CCulpepper: maybe they both were sentient, and the two groups - femalesentient, and male sentient had diferent opinione and seperated

[21:03] #knownspace> mlseagull: then how did the grog males devolve to being non-sentient

[21:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: the same way the kzin females were! selective breeding.

[21:04] #knownspace> mlseagull: ok, but if the bandersnatch can sense and manipulate the strong force

[21:04] #knownspace> mlseagull: to use as a weapon

[21:05] #knownspace> mlseagull: how did the grog/slavers survive at all

[21:05] #knownspace> CCulpepper: maybe the two groups still communicated and the grogs senced it.

[21:06] #knownspace> CCulpepper: and degraded thier intelligence.

[21:06] #knownspace> mlseagull: of the bandersnatch

[21:07] #knownspace> mlseagull: but surely then the bandersnatch can raise and lower their intelligence level

[21:07] #knownspace> mlseagull: as we discussed before, becuse they are intelligent now

[21:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah that would work. Maybe with that mucl capacity, you can manipulate your neurons.

[21:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: and the grogs commanded each other to lower their inteligence.

[21:09] #knownspace> mlseagull: except the females obviously didn't agree, since they are sentient

[21:09] #knownspace> mlseagull: in the handicapped, remember we made them hands

[21:10] #knownspace> mlseagull: and used them in court

[21:10] #knownspace> mlseagull: as lie detectors

[21:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: no the grogs seperated right after space flight, and degraded the male intelligence by selective breeding, and the femalestold each other to lower eachothers inteligence

[21:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: and that would not be passed on to the next generation

[21:12] #knownspace> mlseagull: Hmmm...ok, but if it was the bandersnatch and not the slavers that killed all the life, that would not even be necessary

[21:12] #knownspace> mlseagull: the slavers power only worked on sentient life

[21:13] #knownspace> mlseagull: but...would the bandersnatch's

[21:13] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah it would because the puls killed all sentient life, and if the grog females commanded eachother to not be sentient, it would not affect them.

[21:13] #knownspace> mlseagull: maybe a few slavers just hid

[21:13] #knownspace> mlseagull: ok i see your point

[21:15] #knownspace> mlseagull: so we must assume then, that bandersnatch only targeted sentience...perhaps by sensing the complexity and speed of the neural impulses

[21:15] #knownspace> CCulpepper: and the grogs just gave up space flight... wait the elimination of a sentient generation would eliminate that knowledge.

[21:15] #knownspace> CCulpepper: they could. they had the capibility for it.

[21:16] #knownspace> nedry: I saw the trailer, in 3D for Pocahontas in Space... it looks fantastic

[21:18] #knownspace> mlseagull: An American Indian from 300 years ago in space

[21:18] #knownspace> mlseagull: i bet it looked fantastic

[21:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper: sounds plausible... witha stacis field!

[21:18] #knownspace> mlseagull: hey you're right

[21:19] #knownspace> mlseagull: but how did she get in one?

[21:19] #knownspace> nedry: The 2D version looks good enough... you'd have to see it in a £D theater.

[21:19] #knownspace> CCulpepper: the native americans are actually a very techniacally advanced race, of neanderthals.

[21:20] #knownspace> mlseagull: hey, their abilty to go into deep trances

[21:20] #knownspace> nedry: are you saying i'm a neanderthals? My great grandmother was a native american

[21:20] #knownspace> nedry: :-)

[21:20] #knownspace> mlseagull: with the help of some herbs

[21:20] #knownspace> CCulpepper: no just 1 eights.

[21:21] #knownspace> mlseagull: like suspended animation

[21:21] #knownspace> CCulpepper: called cannibus?

[21:21] #knownspace> mlseagull: something stronger I think

[21:21] #knownspace> nedry: Heh. I'm proud to to be a Polish-Jewish-Native-American-Neanderthal.

[21:21] #knownspace> nedry: think that will fit on a census form?

[21:22] #knownspace> mlseagull: Cool, i'm proud to be a english french native american neandethalis

[21:22] #knownspace> mlseagull: no

[21:22] #knownspace> CCulpepper: well im proud to be a english-swede., and ive never seena cencus form

[21:22] #knownspace> CCulpepper: :P

[21:22] #knownspace> nedry: Cool! And I live in England. It's damn cold here.

[21:23] #knownspace> CCulpepper: well its snowing here.

[21:23] #knownspace> nedry: and wet. it's been raining for about three weeks

[21:23] #knownspace> mlseagull: That's ok, i'm in houston texas and it's cold here too

[21:23] #knownspace> nedry: I'm from Arizona. It isn't snowing or raining there.

[21:23] #knownspace> CCulpepper: well thats england.

[21:23] #knownspace> mlseagull: we had snow yesterday

[21:23] #knownspace> nedry: I'd go home, but I'm addicted to socialised medicine

[21:24] #knownspace> nedry: it snows every year here, but it doesn't stay around long... usually

[21:24] #knownspace> mlseagull: hey, haven't you heard about the helth-care reform-we'll be socialized in no time

[21:24] #knownspace> nedry: they should go all the way. it's not bad here.

[21:25] #knownspace> nedry: my wife just had surgery...she waited like, three weeks.

[21:25] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Well in northern ma it just started snowing, and it wont go away untill june.

[21:25] #knownspace> CCulpepper: gn

[21:25] #knownspace> mlseagull: lol

[21:25] #knownspace> nedry: too much snow for me

[21:25] #knownspace> CCulpepper: sry wrong window

[21:25] #knownspace> nedry: two-timer!

[21:26] #knownspace> mlseagull: cheatin

[21:26] #knownspace> CCulpepper: i love the snow.

[21:26] #knownspace> mlseagull: Tiger Woods

[21:26] #knownspace> mlseagull: smile

[21:26] #knownspace> CCulpepper: well on dial-up you have to multi taks.

[21:26] #knownspace> nedry: ha! that made the news here.

[21:26] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah thats funny. he crashed.

[21:27] #knownspace> mlseagull: me too, esp. since we only get one day every 50 years are so

[21:27] #knownspace> nedry: who thinks his wife broke the window of his car *before* it crashed.

[21:27] #knownspace> nedry: with a golf club

[21:27] #knownspace> mlseagull: me

[21:28] #knownspace> mlseagull: I think that's what caused the crash

[21:28] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah her running on the side of the vehicle kitting the window! that would do it!

[21:28] #knownspace> nedry: heh.

[21:28] #knownspace> mlseagull: lmao

[21:29] #knownspace> CCulpepper: it is instinct Thats how we killed large animals!

[21:29] #knownspace> mlseagull: lroomc

[21:30] #knownspace> mlseagull: that's laughing right out of my chair

[21:30] #knownspace> nedry: It all means what I've always suspected... Golf is evil.

[21:30] #knownspace> CCulpepper: thats funny.

[21:30] #knownspace> CCulpepper: i agree.

[21:30] #knownspace> mlseagull: yah, only rich people play golf

[21:30] #knownspace> mlseagull: that says it all

[21:30] #knownspace> nedry: rich people suck

[21:31] #knownspace> CCulpepper: or those with nothing left to live for.

[21:31] #knownspace> mlseagull: no, they pay someone to do it for them

[21:31] #knownspace> mlseagull: both depressing things to associate with golf

[21:31] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah they are.

[21:32] #knownspace> mlseagull: and what the hell are they such little bitty clubs

[21:33] #knownspace> CCulpepper: what if you are scottish and are celebrating your ancestry?

[21:33] #knownspace> mlseagull: get a big club for pete's sake

[21:33] #knownspace> mlseagull: with a big ball and big holes

[21:33] #knownspace> mlseagull: do it right

[21:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: sounds like uber-golf!

[21:34] #knownspace> mlseagull: isn't it a little effeminate?

[21:34] #knownspace> mlseagull: not like a big basket ball or soccer ball

[21:34] #knownspace> nedry: I want to move to scotland

[21:34] #knownspace> nedry: Those people are nuts...

[21:35] #knownspace> mlseagull: I hear it's beautiful, but wild

[21:35] #knownspace> nedry: they have one of the lowest life expectancies in Europe! party on!

[21:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: beuty is in the eye of the beholder.

[21:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: as is life expectance!

[21:37] #knownspace> mlseagull: what I expect and what you expect are different you mean

[21:37] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah. i would consider a short filled life great, and not a long empty life.

[21:38] #knownspace> mlseagull: but if you live long, you might eventually figure out how not to live an empty life

[21:38] #knownspace> CCulpepper: or invent boosterspice.

[21:38] #knownspace> mlseagull: lol

[21:39] #knownspace> mlseagull: we are getting close

[21:39] #knownspace> nedry: the scots have boosterspice. it's called ... alcohol.

[21:39] #knownspace> mlseagull: there is a drug that extends life in laboratory rats

[21:39] #knownspace> nedry: it doesn't work but they are too drunk to notice

[21:39] #knownspace> mlseagull: lol

[21:39] #knownspace> CCulpepper: lmao

[21:40] #knownspace> nedry: i'm not sure who I'm actually talking too... so i don't know if I am repeating old stories, but I had one living in my loft for a while.

[21:40] #knownspace> mlseagull: one what-lab rat?

[21:40] #knownspace> nedry: Scotsman

[21:41] #knownspace> CCulpepper: hehe

[21:41] #knownspace> mlseagull: close enough

[21:41] #knownspace> CCulpepper: did he play the bagpipes?

[21:41] #knownspace> nedry: I had to throw him out. the hygenic implications where frightening

[21:41] #knownspace> mlseagull: not really

[21:41] #knownspace> mlseagull: lmao

[21:41] #knownspace> nedry: I would have murdered him if he played bagpipes

[21:41] #knownspace> nedry: he left bottles of urine... hidden.

[21:41] #knownspace> nedry: they fell over when i was cleaning it out.

[21:41] #knownspace> nedry: it smelt like a tannery

[21:42] #knownspace> mlseagull: hidden?

[21:42] #knownspace> nedry: yeah, behind junk... he also left a collection of womans stockings

[21:42] #knownspace> nedry: i think he was a transvestite

[21:42] #knownspace> mlseagull: what was he afraid someone would steal them

[21:42] #knownspace> nedry: (i'm not making this up..)

[21:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: lol

[21:42] #knownspace> nedry: i guess.

[21:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: but did he leave any alcohol?

[21:42] #knownspace> nedry: He convinced the local authority he had ADHD

[21:43] #knownspace> nedry: so they paid me £200 a month to house him

[21:43] #knownspace> mlseagull: no he drank all the alcohol

[21:43] #knownspace> nedry: he left a bit. some homemade stuff.

[21:43] #knownspace> CCulpepper: enen yours? what a rude guest!

[21:43] #knownspace> CCulpepper: well thats england for you...

[21:43] #knownspace> nedry: he was a kind of hippy.

[21:43] #knownspace> mlseagull: careful-it might be made with the urine

[21:43] #knownspace> nedry: i'm not drinking it.

[21:44] #knownspace> CCulpepper: i dont blame you.

[21:45] #knownspace> nedry: but I'm telling everyone, DON'T LET PAUL GREY MOVE INTO YOUR HOUSE!!!

[21:45] #knownspace> nedry: He gets around, he might turn up in the USA. Except the government wouldn't pay him to be a scrounger.

[21:45] #knownspace> CCulpepper: i dont think he will get a ticket over the pond, so were safe... for now

[21:45] #knownspace> mlseagull: yes they would

[21:45] #knownspace> nedry: well, he lived in New Zealand for several years

[21:45] #knownspace> CCulpepper: thay would call it stimulus.

[21:46] #knownspace> mlseagull: stimulate this

[21:48] #knownspace> mlseagull: i get tired of paying for the people who aren't paying taxes

[21:49] #knownspace> CCulpepper: and for the inegal aleans to have healthcare...

[21:50] #knownspace> mlseagull: that we can't get

[21:50] #knownspace> mlseagull: sigh

[21:50] #knownspace> CCulpepper: and what about us building drinking fountains in the desert for them?

[21:50] #knownspace> mlseagull: what

[21:51] #knownspace> mlseagull: I hadn't heard that

[21:51] #knownspace> CCulpepper: there are fountains in the desert for ilegal imagrents.

[21:52] #knownspace> mlseagull: well we have gotton far away from pocahontas

[21:52] #knownspace> CCulpepper: or from bandersnachi

[21:55] #knownspace> mlseagull: well, my dinner is ready, so i gotta go now

[21:55] #knownspace> CCulpepper: see ya

[21:55] #knownspace> mlseagull: I cooked up a bandersnatch steak

[21:55] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ooh brain, or meat?

[21:56] #knownspace> mlseagull: brain, of course!

[21:56] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ooh! i wish we had bandersnachi here! prolly better than deer!

[21:56] #knownspace> CCulpepper: i cant believe that arizona let them in!

[21:57] #knownspace> mlseagull: bandersnatch?

[21:57] #knownspace> mlseagull: smile

[21:57] #knownspace> CCulpepper: bandersnachi - plural?

[21:57] #knownspace> CCulpepper: or bandersnaches?

[21:57] #knownspace> mlseagull: chi

[21:57] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok

[21:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Bandersnatchi is the correct plural.

[21:58] #knownspace> CCulpepper: i hate english...

[21:59] #knownspace> Lensman: "The Color of Sunfire" implies Bandersnatchi are psionically "dead", like protectors are. That story had a telepathic hunter who kept fainting when hunting Bandersnatchi because she kept trying to read their mind, and would faint from sensory deprivation or some such thing.

[22:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok that make some of our thoughts wrong.

[22:00] #knownspace> mlseagull: not necessarily

[22:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Not necessarily; you were claiming the Bandersnatchi telepathy works on a different "wavelength" were you not?

[22:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper: a wole diferent band - hyper-wave

[22:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Just assume they have the Slaver Mind Shield, with a "hole" in the right bandwidth for their telepathy.

[22:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Natural hyperwave? Nah, wouldn't work in a gravity well.

[22:01] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah live selective blocking like a GP hull for light.

[22:02] #knownspace> CCulpepper: oh wait it would nt there goes more...

[22:02] #knownspace> Lensman: There you go. Tanj those Tnuctipun are fiendishly clever! :)

[22:02] #knownspace> CCulpepper: maybe humans cannot comprehend them.or their purposes.

[22:04] #knownspace> Lensman: IIRC the cap which was guessed to provide protection from Slaver Power was *not* put back in the Tnuctipun stasis box. The Kzinti did not close it up again. I would guess it was left inside the Kzinti ship when the Soft Weapon blew up. Dunno if it survived or not.

[22:04] #knownspace> CCulpepper: maybe it had its own stacis field.

[22:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Seems rather doubtful, a stasis field needs an energy source and a conductive surface.

[22:06] #knownspace> Lensman: And presuming it *was* a shield against the Slaver Power, we don't know how *effective* it was. Especially at close quarters. So I wouldn't bet my life that it would save me from a Grog!

[22:07] #knownspace> CCulpepper: or a slaver.

[22:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: what specie wat the alien in world of ptavvs?

[22:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, another point: The Slavers cannot control animals. They could not control the racing vipirin.

[22:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Slavers = Thrintun.

[22:09] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok that is what i was thinking, i just forgot.

[22:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Seems strange that the Slavers could apparently control your anotomous nervous system-- they can paralyze limbs or stop your heart-- but can't control animals. But that's what WOP says.

[22:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: maybe they could, they were just brought up so that they cannot.

[22:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Well then, anyone who disbelieved that would have a great advantage over all the others, wouldn't he? A cultural meme which causes the culture to fail to compete with others will quickly be wiped out.

[22:14] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok that makes sense, just throwing ideas out.

[22:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Just like the Shakers. They didn't believe in having children. They successfully wiped themselves out.

[22:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Nothing wrong with brainstorming. Maybe I shouldn't be so assertive in saying "I don't think so."

[22:15] #knownspace> CCulpepper: there are still shakers. there is a village right near me.

[22:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, thanks for the correction.

[22:15] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah

[22:17] #knownspace> Lensman: So may I ask, where do you live?

[22:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper: northern Mass in a town called Florida.

[22:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Kansas City here. Odd that the last two in the chat room are on the East Coast and the Midwest!

[22:20] #knownspace> CCulpepper: why is that odd?

[22:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Looks like the Antipodal crowd was in earlier.

[22:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, because traditionally the later hours for the chat are for our Aussie and Kiwi friends.

[22:21] #knownspace> CCulpepper: oh i see. ive never been on when people are on before.

[22:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Scheduled chat starts the first Saturday of the month at noon Pacific time... which I think is 3 PM your time.

[22:21] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah 3 pm est.

[22:22] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But now that i have that info i can get on in January.

[22:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Please do!

[22:23] #knownspace> CCulpepper: i wil try to the best of my ability, and in the dial-up gods are willing!

[22:23] #knownspace> Lensman: If Larry shows up, it's usually about an hour later. But the last several times he's had problems accessing the chat, so he may not show up.

[22:23] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, you're not on broadband? Bummer.

[22:23] #knownspace> CCulpepper: i see. that would be an experience!

[22:24] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah its about 100 feet from my house, so it sucks.

[22:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed Lerner is more consistent about showing up. But not today, he had a book tour.

[22:24] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But thats what you get for living in the sticks

[22:24] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ed lerner?

[22:25] #knownspace> Lensman: You haven't read any of the three latest Known Space novels, I take it. Co-written by Niven and Edward M. Lerner.

[22:25] #knownspace> Lensman: -/Destroyer of Worlds/ just came out recently.

[22:26] #knownspace> CCulpepper: No. All of my books are from my dad, and he died in 2005. I am a teen without a job so buying books is kinda hard...

[22:26] #knownspace> Lensman: I see. I sympathize; I was there myself once.

[22:26] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah it sucks.

[22:27] #knownspace> Lensman: I hope you have a local library! You can probably get any of the books thru inter-library loan.

[22:28] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah i do have a local library, but it is kinda small, and pretty much only stocks kid stuff because it is in a school

[22:30] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But once i get my licence i can get a job and get books.

[22:30] #knownspace> Lensman: I started collecting books at age 13. That's when a friend of mine loaned me one book in the /Lensman/ series. I discovered the local library didn't have any of those, but the local bookstore did! Fortunately I got a weekly allowance, and in those days books were not nearly as expensive. So I could generally get a couple of paperbacks a week.

[22:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, ask at your library about inter-library loan.

[22:31] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah the days of 1 $ books are over...

[22:31] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok i will.

[22:31] #knownspace> Lensman: You may not be able to afford Niven hardcovers, but you can at least read them if you can get them thru your library.

[22:32] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Or i could buy e-books, and read them on my computer.

[22:33] #knownspace> Lensman: More like 60¢ or 75¢ when I first started collecting. Novels were generally a lot shorter then, too. 200 pages or less.

[22:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Maybe 250 at the most.

[22:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I see. Now books are much more expensive!

[22:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Sure, if you don't mind reading on your computer. I hate to read anything long that way.

[22:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah it probably would hurt your eyes. I have never tried it.

[22:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah. I don't buy or read nearly as much as I used to. Partly because I spend so much time on the computer, partly because I've read so many books that I've become a lot more picky about what I read. And of course, these days books tend to be much longer so it takes more of a commitment of my time to read just one.

[22:37] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah it does, but there have been lond books since books were invented, i would think. And some of those are good, like The Lord Of The Rings.

[22:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Yah I was just gonna mention LOTR. One of my very favorites.

[22:41] #knownspace> Lensman: And Shogun.

[22:41] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Mine too. A long read but definitally worth it.

[22:41] #knownspace> CCulpepper: shogun?

[22:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Another favorite. And speaking of Niven, /The Mote in God's Eye/ is fairly long.

[22:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I have never read The mote

[22:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: In gods Eye.

[22:42] #knownspace> Lensman: -/Shogun/ by James Clavell. A novel of first contact with an alien culture. The alien culture being Japan, in this case.

[22:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But i have rean an exert from it, and it was good.

[22:43] #knownspace> CCulpepper: That makes sence with the title.

[22:43] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ill look for it.

[22:43] #knownspace> Lensman: -/Mote/ is one of my very favorites of all Niven's books. Altho oddly enuff I didn't care for it much the first time I read it. Fell in love with it the second time, have re-read it many times by now.

[22:44] #knownspace> CCulpepper: It sounds like a great novel like alot on Niven's work.

[22:44] #knownspace> Lensman: In my opinion, it's the best novel of alien contact ever written. /Mote/, I mean.

[22:45] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I personally liked Lucifers Hammer.

[22:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Another favorite of mine, and a close second behind /Mote/ among Niven's best collaborations.

[22:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Another book I've re-read several times. And it's a long one too!

[22:46] #knownspace> CCulpepper: That it is. How did you like Footfall?

[22:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Not so much.

[22:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Altho the ending was a real page-turner!

[22:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Gotta love the /Michael/. A steam-powered atomic driven spaceship!

[22:47] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah. I read that one and Lucifers Hammer in succesion, And i liked Lucifers Hammer Much Better.

[22:48] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yah Human innovation will go far. I guess we get that from protectors...

[22:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, the odd thing is that the original story was basically /Footfall/ with Moties. But the publisher said he wanted a straight disaster novel, so N&P pulled out the aliens and put them into /Mote/. /Footfall/ minus aliens became /Lucifer's Hammer/. So when N&P decided to do /Footfall/, they had to come up with a different set of aliens, and ones that look like something thought up at the...

[22:50] #knownspace> Lensman: ...last minute. And the story reads like a warmed over version of /Lucifer's Hammer/ because that's what it is!

[22:51] #knownspace> Fred: another Niven thing so totallly ripped off they'll never be able to film the original

[22:51] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah that makes sense.

[22:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi again Fred! You must be talking about /Lucifer's Hammer/.

[22:51] #knownspace> Fred: si

[22:52] #knownspace> Lensman: But that wasn't the first "big rock hits the earth" novel was it? Or maybe it was.

[22:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Clarke did it, I think.

[22:52] #knownspace> CCulpepper: No it wasnt, but in my opinion the best.

[22:52] #knownspace> Lensman: By far the best of any I have read.

[22:53] #knownspace> CCulpepper: agreed

[22:53] #knownspace> Lensman: But I'm sure I have not read them all.

[22:54] #knownspace> Lensman: -/The Hammer of God/ was Clarke's, but pubbed in 1993. So long after /Hammer/.

[22:55] #knownspace> Fred: The Hammer of God is a science fiction novel written by Arthur C. Clarke in 1993.

[22:55] #knownspace> Fred: lol

[22:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Jinx! You owe me a bar of steel bent into a pretzel.

[22:56] #knownspace> Fred: so speilberg bought the hammer of god and changed it so much they dropped clarke's credit and the result was deep impact

[22:56] #knownspace> Fred: ptui

[22:56] #knownspace> Lensman: So what was the first?

[22:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Seriously?

[22:57] #knownspace> Fred: thats what wiki says

[22:58] #knownspace> Lensman: I confess I don't remember /Hammer/ that well. Frankly I haven't been impressed with Clarke's novels much, except /Rama/ which is one of my favorites, and /A Fall of Moondust/ which reads like a juvenile or semi-juvenile.

[22:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Clarke has some great short stories, tho. Like "The Nine Billion Names of God".

[22:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Oops, I forgot /Childhood's End/, a fantastic novel if not quite to my taste.

[22:59] #knownspace> Fred: you don't remember clarke's hammer or niven's hammer?

[23:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Closer to fantasy than SF IMHO.

[23:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Clarke's Hammer, Fred. Surely you're not suggesting "Deep Impact" was based on /Lucifer's Hammer/?

[23:00] #knownspace> Fred: no, just clarifying which you didn't recall

[23:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I recall /Lucifer's Hammer/ quite well, thanks.

[23:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, the plot anyway. I don't know that I could name most of the characters.

[23:04] #knownspace> Lensman: I think it's funny that Larry gets exasperated that anytime anyone wants to talk about /Hammer/ they always want to talk about the surfer. But Larry! It's the most vivid mental picture in the whole book! If you didn't want it to be so memorable, you shouldn't have written the scene so vividly! :)

[23:05] #knownspace> CCulpepper: lol. I had almost forgot the surfer!

[23:05] #knownspace> Lensman: 8-0 Heretic!

[23:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Dang this thing doesn't do boggled smileys!

[23:06] #knownspace> Lensman: 8-O

[23:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Nope.

[23:06] #knownspace> CCulpepper: :o ?

[23:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, how did you do that pepper?

[23:07] #knownspace> CCulpepper: : then o

[23:07] #knownspace> Lensman: :o

[23:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Aha! Thanx.

[23:07] #knownspace> Fred: :o ?

[23:07] #knownspace> CCulpepper: dont mention it!

[23:08] #knownspace> Lensman: But you're still a heretic.

[23:08] #knownspace> Lensman: :)

[23:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: aww!

[23:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: <sadly>

[23:08] #knownspace> Lensman: That's okay, pepper. When you get to be an old phart like Fred and me, you can tease the young 'uns.

[23:09] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Im sure you arent that old...

[23:09] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm sure you're wrong.

[23:09] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok if you say so.

[23:10] #knownspace> Lensman: I read /Ringworld/ in high school... less than three years after it was published.

[23:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: that would be 1970 co 39 + 16 + 3= 49. not that old.

[23:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Try again.

[23:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ay the most 51?

[23:11] #knownspace> Lensman: 1970 is correct for /Ringworld/

[23:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Nope, try again.

[23:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yah i have it right in front of me...

[23:12] #knownspace> Fred: I guess I read it in college. I fought it for awhile because of the stupid cover

[23:12] #knownspace> Fred: friend got me to read Ptavvs first

[23:12] #knownspace> CCulpepper: 57 tops?

[23:12] #knownspace> Lensman: I think you need a course in remedial math.

[23:13] #knownspace> CCulpepper: remedial math?

[23:14] #knownspace> Lensman: What I'm saying is that in 1970, I was between 16 and 18 years old. It was a 3-year high school, which you couldn't know of course.

[23:14] #knownspace> Fred: I get a range of 50 to 54

[23:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Wait, now *I* need a course in remedial math.

[23:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred is correct.

[23:14] #knownspace> Fred: lol, really

[23:14] #knownspace> CCulpepper: you might have skipped grades of stayed back...

[23:15] #knownspace> Fred: you said you read it in less than 1973. Sort of open to interpretation. :)

[23:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, then it wouldn't be a fair question would it?

[23:16] #knownspace> CCulpepper: does it matter how old you are chronologically?

[23:16] #knownspace> Lensman: When you're 54, I guarantee you'll think it matters!

[23:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Or as Indiana Jones put it: "It's not the years, it's the mileage!"

[23:16] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I personally believe in mental, and physical age.

[23:17] #knownspace> Fred: When you're 55, and both the girls you're interested in are in their 20s, it weighs on you

[23:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper: that would be true, but 1 only have 15 years of experience so ...

[23:18] #knownspace> Lensman: pepper, "remedial" means a make-up course taken by someone for something he should already have learned, but didn't pass.

[23:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok i see.

[23:19] #knownspace> Lensman: That's okay, I'm sure at age 15 I thought it was terribly unfair for people to place so much emphasis on chronological age, too.

[23:19] #knownspace> Lensman: But that was unfair of me, I see now I didn't give enuff clues to my age.

[23:19] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok at least im not the only one...

[23:20] #knownspace> Lensman: No, it's perfectly normal. Quite human.

[23:21] #knownspace> Lensman: So Fred, is your company working on anything you can talk about?

[23:21] #knownspace> CCulpepper: the ways of being human are bounded, but infinite. -Larry Niven

[23:21] #knownspace> SeanS: no worries, i have a pic of you david.

[23:22] #knownspace> Lensman: ?

[23:22] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't recognize the quote, pepper. What's it from?

[23:23] #knownspace> CCulpepper: i dont know, i just know it is one of his quotes. I think i found it on wikipedia, when making a quote generator.

[23:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, found it: "Niven's Laws, 2002 Edition"

[23:29] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok i was worried that id misquoted.

[23:30] #knownspace> Fred: Lens, I'm taking care of my Mom full time right now

[23:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Nope. I'm more familiar with the original version. That version is online... not sure if it's in any print book. The original quote was "The ways of being human are endless", which is not nearly as memorable.

[23:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred: So what about your business? Shut down, or is someone else running it? If it's any of my business, which maybe it's not.

[23:33] #knownspace> Lensman: pepper: So what are you doing still up at 11:30? No school tomorrow?

[23:33] #knownspace> CCulpepper: well since i live in the us i get saturrdays off.

[23:33] #knownspace> Fred: office is sitting there burning a hole in my pocket

[23:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, sorry... I was thinking tomorrow was Monday. Duh.

[23:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Now i cant seem to figure out why in every social group ive ever been in people call me papper. i cant figure it out...

[23:34] #knownspace> Lensman: I was just thinking I was getting sleepy; mixing up Sat & Sun is a clear indicator.

[23:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: well it is 10 30.

[23:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, calling you "C" doesn't seem appropriate...

[23:35] #knownspace> Fred: how about 'CC'

[23:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: or people call me culpepper... i dont see where they get it.

[23:36] #knownspace> Lensman: It's only 10:30 your time? I'm confused.

[23:36] #knownspace> CCulpepper: no yours, Kansas is central right?

[23:37] #knownspace> Fred: 9:30 my time

[23:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, it's 10:30 my time, I thought you meant your time.

[23:37] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok then

[23:37] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok thats what i thought.

[23:38] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I never got time zones.

[23:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Culpepper isn't your real name?

[23:38] #knownspace> Lensman: I have a problem with time zones too. Always reversing the add or subtract for hours.

[23:38] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Chris Culpepper is my name. I was just joking around.

[23:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Well not always... I did get yours right, Chris.

[23:39] #knownspace> CCulpepper: yup.

[23:39] #knownspace> Lensman: I C.

[23:40] #knownspace> CCulpepper: And if it was Sunday, i could sleep through shop.

[23:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Now, if only I could figure out Sean's cryptic comment "no worries, i have a pic of you david." I guess he meant me?

[23:41] #knownspace> Lensman: And I don't think my lack of comprehension is due to sleepiness.

[23:41] #knownspace> CCulpepper: maybe it was a comment that got "lost"

[23:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Maybe he was multitasking and typed it in the wrong window, yeah.

[23:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Perhaps.

[23:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, Niven fen, I think I'm going to call it a night.

[23:43] #knownspace> Lensman: "It's a night!"

[23:43] #knownspace> CCulpepper: fen as in a plural of fan?\

[23:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, that's your first lesson in fanspeak, Chris.

[23:44] #knownspace> Lensman: And my estimation of your intelligence just went up a notch, unless you've been exposed to fanspeak before.

[23:44] #knownspace> CCulpepper: ok like boxen for a ploral for box.

[23:44] #knownspace> CCulpepper: i do so hate english.

[23:45] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I do think that i might go to bed as well.

[23:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Why? Looks to me like your spelling and grammar are fine.

[23:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Good nite.