Chat Log: December 6th 2008

Dec 06 14:33:20 <lemming> this doesnt look right

Dec 06 14:50:43 * NickE (~nick@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 14:51:36 <NickE> OK, is this working or what?

Dec 06 14:52:06 <NickE> I've tried most of the options

Dec 06 14:52:51 <NickE> Neither of teh Java servers seems to be working, either the KS one or the one

Dec 06 14:53:16 <NickE> mIRC gets me to the lemming login seen here so it's pointing to the same place

Dec 06 14:53:34 <NickE> and this login is via Opera on irc://

Dec 06 14:54:02 <NickE> and........I'm talking to myself

Dec 06 14:57:34 * NickE is now known as ConfusedNickE

Dec 06 15:03:31 * Hippy (~captlychee@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 15:04:12 <Hippy> Good (insertt timeone), everyone

Dec 06 15:05:08 * Larry (~Larry@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 15:05:37 <Larry> Hello.

Dec 06 15:05:50 <Hippy> Good afternoon, Larry

Dec 06 15:06:16 <Hippy> How's California this afternoon?

Dec 06 15:07:28 <Larry> Outside my window it's sunny, good day for a hike.

Dec 06 15:07:44 <Larry> I'll go up the hill later in the day.

Dec 06 15:08:10 <Hippy> Well, the sun's just coming up in Victoria, shaping up to be a good day for mowing the lawn, whch is long overdue

Dec 06 15:10:04 <Larry> Ed Lerner just sent me material re DESTROYER OF WORLDS. I guess I've got a busy day ahead.

Dec 06 15:10:04 <Hippy> Now, Ihad a question for you, and Lensman isn't here to spruik Kathleen Turner, so I'll ask: Whose voice did you have in mind when you described Nessus's contralto?

Dec 06 15:10:35 <Hippy> Were you basing it on some actress of the 60's or on what?

Dec 06 15:10:47 <Larry> I wasn't thinking of any particular woman...or else it's been too long and I've forgotten.

Dec 06 15:11:47 * Ronn (~Ronn@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 15:12:33 <Hippy> So the idea of a contralto voice was just that that pitch or tone sounded nice?

Dec 06 15:12:44 <Hippy> Sounded persuasive?

Dec 06 15:13:58 <Larry> Here's what I was after. Any alien who can learn English (or a human language) could go further, learning intonation and body language. Nessus doesn't have the body, but I gave him the versatile voice.

Dec 06 15:14:33 <Hippy> G'day, Ronn

Dec 06 15:15:11 <Larry> Translation (with aliens) is an old narrative problem. I've been wrestling with it for decades. See MOTE and FOOTFALL.

Dec 06 15:15:20 <Hippy> Yes, that makes sense. And a diplomat would need to be persuasive and polite at the same time, and Nessus had the voice for that

Dec 06 15:15:59 <Hippy> Well, MOTE had the best solution: evolved communicators

Dec 06 15:16:53 * Jim (~chatzilla@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 15:17:04 <ConfusedNickE> whoa, it's all working :-)

Dec 06 15:17:10 <Hippy> Morning, Jim

Dec 06 15:17:17 <Jim> yes

Dec 06 15:17:32 <ConfusedNickE> evening/afternoon everyone

Dec 06 15:17:57 <Larry> Yeah, and the fithp had extraordinary motivation. And the Chirpsithra had billion-year-old translators.

Dec 06 15:17:59 <Hippy> Were there some problems before? It's been working since 7:00AM when I got on

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Dec 06 15:18:30 * ConfusedNickE is now known as NickE

Dec 06 15:18:35 <NickE> Hi Ed

Dec 06 15:18:41 <NickE> Hi Larry!

Dec 06 15:18:47 <EML> Hi, all.

Dec 06 15:19:23 <Hippy> The Chirps are a good example. After a billion years you could assume they had deiscocerd every concept that is conceivable, and thus had a translated word for any idea anyone else could think of. Like a giant glossary of everything

Dec 06 15:19:34 <EML> Hmm ... Larry, our synchronization failed. Now people know there are TWO of us.

Dec 06 15:19:34 <Hippy> Howdy, Ed

Dec 06 15:19:48 <NickE> We caught them!

Dec 06 15:20:06 <Hippy> Not at all. I've assumed you, Ed, were a computer simulation of Larry. I've met Larry, but not you

Dec 06 15:21:13 <EML> well as we are ALL simulations in the computer of the universe, it really doesn't matter.

Dec 06 15:22:22 <Hippy> So you would be a simulation of a simulation? I wonder how many iterations of that you could get. Perhaps the computer that runs the universe is itself a virtual machine

Dec 06 15:22:31 * Ronn has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Dec 06 15:22:43 <Hippy> . . .running on idle time before the real job starts?

Dec 06 15:23:06 <Larry> Good grief, that's an interesting notion. Chirps could talk to a Muslim/Scientologist/whatever in his own language, concepts and all.

Dec 06 15:23:08 <Hippy> Looks like the Java applet is playing up again

Dec 06 15:23:37 <EML> Could be, Hippy. A great old book: Simulacron-3, by Daniel F. Galouye.

Dec 06 15:24:40 <NickE> Yeah, I'm using Opera for teh first time

Dec 06 15:24:55 <NickE> Couldnt get either Jave applet to work

Dec 06 15:25:08 <Hippy> Yeah. Or a hobby fisherman, or a taxidermist or a serial killer, each of whom, you could argue, have different concepts of a single word. Say, ;'mother' for example. The nuances to each of those people would be different, and the Chirps could use the specific nuances

Dec 06 15:25:11 <EML> Maybe the fat lady sang.

Dec 06 15:25:23 <Hippy> I'll look into that, Ed

Dec 06 15:25:52 <Larry> Simulacron-3 became a good movie: The Thirteenth Floor.

Dec 06 15:26:04 * Fred (~Fred@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 15:26:20 <Jim> Would 1.0E+09 years be long enough to have discovered every possible meaning of every word?

Dec 06 15:26:23 <Hippy> Oh, good! I've just been recommended to watch that

Dec 06 15:26:34 <Jim> hi fred

Dec 06 15:26:36 <Fred> Just checking for Ron who said the Chat wasn't working

Dec 06 15:26:50 <NickE> Wasnt for me earlier either

Dec 06 15:26:55 <Hippy> It'd have a good run at it, Jim

Dec 06 15:28:13 <EML> As I'm contrary by nature ... why would vocabulary, or grammars, or modes of thought be finite?

Dec 06 15:28:23 <Jim> Is the set of possible meanings of a word a finite set? Is the number of possible words a finite set?

Dec 06 15:29:03 <Larry> I intuit that those are all finite sets.

Dec 06 15:29:15 <EML> Finite sets seem implicit in the Chirps knownig all languages because enough time has passed.

Dec 06 15:29:34 <Fred> are there an infinite number of finite sets?

Dec 06 15:29:37 <Larry> Consider "The Nine Billion Names of God". Big but finite.

Dec 06 15:29:47 <Fred> or is it the other way 'round

Dec 06 15:30:12 <EML> Of course Clark never explained how the lamas decided on only 9 billion possibilities.

Dec 06 15:30:19 <Hippy> That's a good one, Fred

Dec 06 15:30:49 <Hippy> That was the total number of permutations using the alphabet they'd designed

Dec 06 15:30:53 <NickE> Some of the aliens in the DC stories are so alien that the very concept of "word" my be irrelevant

Dec 06 15:31:26 <Jim> DC = ?

Dec 06 15:31:50 <EML> Total number of permutations ==> limited word length. That, in turn, is unexplained.

Dec 06 15:31:52 <NickE> Ooops DT Dract Tavern

Dec 06 15:31:57 <Fred> either Dick Clarke or Detective Comics

Dec 06 15:32:03 <NickE> typing as usual pants

Dec 06 15:32:18 <Hippy> You're right there, Ed

Dec 06 15:33:04 * oneukum (~oneukum@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 15:33:25 <NickE> What is a word to something that thinks purely in terms of chemical or thermal gradients?

Dec 06 15:33:28 <Jim> Oliver!

Dec 06 15:33:37 <NickE> Hi Oliver

Dec 06 15:33:44 <oneukum> Hello

Dec 06 15:34:45 <Hippy> Wouldn't such an alien have to have some way of formulating a concept and communicating that to another, similar alien? It would have to hve, to have a language at all

Dec 06 15:35:09 <Fred> or it could only speak in annoying metaphors

Dec 06 15:35:37 <Jim> Fred, like the aliens in that ST-TNG episode

Dec 06 15:35:45 <EML> I'll turn the "Chirps know everything" question on its head(?) Why, in a billion years, haven't they evolved or died of boredom?

Dec 06 15:35:49 <NickE> True. Things like physical concepts would almost have to exist in any form of language

Dec 06 15:36:03 <NickE> Damrok

Dec 06 15:36:14 <NickE> or Darmok, I forget

Dec 06 15:36:29 <Hippy> It can't even say 'eelo' without going into a lengthy, Chandleresque monologue rich in simile and allusion

Dec 06 15:37:02 <oneukum> boredom is a human concept

Dec 06 15:37:17 <Fred> Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

Dec 06 15:37:19 <Jim> Chandleresque = ?

Dec 06 15:37:37 <Fred> Shaka, when the walls fell.

Dec 06 15:37:40 <EML> if not boredom, let's call it the lack of new stimulus.

Dec 06 15:38:08 <NickE> But they travel, they seek out the new ad they like to talk

Dec 06 15:38:08 <oneukum> that need not be harmfull

Dec 06 15:38:11 <Hippy> LIke Raymond Chandler. "The conversation moveed as quickly as bathroom gin at a beachhouse."

Dec 06 15:38:22 <Hippy> Not one of my better ones

Dec 06 15:38:26 <NickE> heh

Dec 06 15:38:39 <Fred> Chandler - the court of silence.

Dec 06 15:39:02 <Hippy> That's a good one, Fred

Dec 06 15:39:06 <EML> Huh. I took Chandleresque as a "Friends" reference.

Dec 06 15:39:15 <Fred> snort

Dec 06 15:39:19 <NickE> heh

Dec 06 15:39:28 <Hippy> God, no. And not A Bertram, either

Dec 06 15:39:37 <Fred> could you *BE* more mistaken?

Dec 06 15:39:48 <EML> Fred: good one.

Dec 06 15:40:05 <Fred> :)

Dec 06 15:40:31 <Larry> Chirpsithra have died of boredom, or frozen themselves. Other Chirps have evolved--and that might make a story.

Dec 06 15:40:39 <Fred> so, do you think NBC will ever show the remaining episodes of JOEY?

Dec 06 15:41:15 <NickE> The Green Plague was an interesting story, a Chirp so old the species has evolved since

Dec 06 15:41:45 <EML> Back to Chirps. If they find novelty in new species, they don't know all about how those new species communicate. Hence they don't pre-know all vocabulary.

Dec 06 15:41:49 <NickE> HAve other branches of Chirp society evolved further?

Dec 06 15:42:12 <Jim> Ed, thank you.

Dec 06 15:42:40 <NickE> Do the Chirps that frequent the DT come from one particular straum of Chirp society?

Dec 06 15:42:58 <EML> All episodes of Joey should be buried at Yucca Flats ;-)

Dec 06 15:43:17 <EML> Jim: what are you thanking me for?

Dec 06 15:43:19 <NickE> THey neve talk about the males for instance

Dec 06 15:43:20 <oneukum> the travellers

Dec 06 15:44:31 <Larry> Translators don't know languages in advance. They just learn fast.

Dec 06 15:44:42 <Hippy> The novelty is in seeing a new species that has a language, even if you can already speak it. Say, if I saw a kangaroo that spoke English. I pre-know English before I meet the kangaroo, but it's still novel to me that it can speak it

Dec 06 15:44:55 <Jim> Ed, your proof that the Chirpsithra do not know all possible meanings of all words, because at least some Chirps find novelty in new species.

Dec 06 15:46:19 <Hippy> Now, consikder a race of aliens that is so PC they never use the same euphemism twice. Every time they say anything, they have a new euphemism for what they just said.

Dec 06 15:46:50 <NickE> With sufficiently advanced translation computers, I can defiitely buy that they learn new languages fast.

Dec 06 15:47:04 <NickE> Worked fine in RW with hominids

Dec 06 15:47:20 <Hippy> So, they say 'Take me to your leader' and then follow that up with 'Take me to your significant instructor' and later they say 'the duly appointed facilitator' met with us today' etc etc

Dec 06 15:47:23 <Fred> why does non repetition of euphamisms qualify as "PC"?

Dec 06 15:47:26 <Larry> "I need to go sharpen my skates" was my stepfather's euphemism for visiting the Men's Room. But only once.

Dec 06 15:47:40 <Fred> lol

Dec 06 15:48:13 <NickE> Ther's a great Robert Sheckly story where the polyglot sent to deal with some aliens gets stumped by the fact that their languag evolves so fast, he simply gets lost

Dec 06 15:48:14 <Hippy> Because one of the chatacteristics of PC is creating new euphemisms

Dec 06 15:48:23 <Fred> That one wouldn't get used a lot here in Arizona

Dec 06 15:49:10 <Hippy> And it's summer here, so we're all terribly constipated

Dec 06 15:49:14 <NickE> They all ended up using just one word with different nuances, drove the poor protagonist nuts

Dec 06 15:49:22 <Fred> ah, because any existing euphamism is perceived as immediatly evolving into a deragatory descriptive

Dec 06 15:49:52 <Hippy> exactly, Fred

Dec 06 15:50:08 <Hippy> I mean, 'that turns out to be the case', Fred

Dec 06 15:50:19 <Fred> heh

Dec 06 15:50:27 <Hippy> Rather, 'accuracy wise, we are in an ongoing correctness situation'

Dec 06 15:50:48 <NickE> If the Chirps or thier machines are able to identify that an organsim is sentient and intelligent, that almost by definition needs to include some assumptions about the mode of communication

Dec 06 15:51:19 <Fred> unless we postulate a non communicating intelligent sentient

Dec 06 15:51:30 <Jim> such as the trend of finding new words to describe mental retards every five years or so

Dec 06 15:51:34 <NickE> Which can be tested rapidly and then proceed towards actual translationa and meaningful discourse

Dec 06 15:51:40 <EML> Ted Chiang has a gereat story called (something like) "The Story of Your Life," in which the alienness of the speech is far different from mere wording or grammar variances. Highly recommended, BTW.

Dec 06 15:53:02 <NickE> That was kind of my point with the chemical gradient comment...forms so different that we fo instance simply lack the neural organisation to even approximate an understanding of even the basic concepts involved

Dec 06 15:53:52 * Lensman (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 15:54:04 <Fred> so would Ringworld communicator/translator discs continue to come up with new phrases for new euphamisms for 'retard' or would it continue to translate all the new phrases back to the original meaning?

Dec 06 15:54:05 * allyngibson (~allyn@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 15:54:27 <Fred> Sooby, Allyn

Dec 06 15:54:31 <Lensman> Tanj I can't believe I forgot today was the chat!

Dec 06 15:54:40 <Lensman> Hi Fred, Hi everyfan!

Dec 06 15:54:51 <oneukum> Hello

Dec 06 15:54:52 <NickE> Teh translator discs seemd to translate idiomatically

Dec 06 15:54:53 <Hippy> Unforgiveable, Lens :)

Dec 06 15:54:53 <Fred> Weren't you the one sent out the call?

Dec 06 15:54:54 <Larry> Fred, the device would do whatever you set it to do.

Dec 06 15:55:18 <Hippy> It might depend on the brand of disc

Dec 06 15:55:29 <Lensman> That's what I mean; that I sent out the invites yet I forgot. Pre-senior moment!

Dec 06 15:55:35 <Hippy> . . .and the policies of the company that made them

Dec 06 15:55:41 <Fred> In this case whatever the Puppeteers that stocked your ship set it for

Dec 06 15:55:42 <NickE> Yeah, I guess a philologist would use different settings to Louis Wu on sabbatical

Dec 06 15:56:36 <NickE> BUt then with translators, would philology still exist as a discipline?

Dec 06 15:56:55 <NickE> Othr than for historical interest

Dec 06 15:57:03 <Fred> Yes, but it would change titles constantly

Dec 06 15:57:17 <NickE> True

Dec 06 15:57:22 <oneukum> Somebody needs to build better translators

Dec 06 15:57:28 <Lensman> Translation via com disc-- actually using the ship's computer-- seems pretty sophisticated, yah. I'd expect with more exposure to the language, the translation would be more free, more idiomatic with subtle shades of meaning.

Dec 06 15:57:38 <EML> if no one studies languages, how would anyone know if a translator was trustweorthy?

Dec 06 15:58:03 <Fred> given our history, they wouldn't know or care

Dec 06 15:58:12 <Fred> ever try to watch closed captioning?

Dec 06 15:58:33 <Fred> I could get closer with the sound off just watching the picture and guessing

Dec 06 15:58:52 <EML> A zillion people on the INternet try to trip up everyone -- someone would wonder about translations.

Dec 06 15:58:56 <Lensman> I think Rw pretty much glosses over the "lost in translation" thing. I loved the bit in /Fail-Safe/ where the translator has to debate with himself which word to use, because one shade of meaning in Russian would be considered insulting or arrogant.

Dec 06 15:59:09 <NickE> Well, in KS, dealing with aliens would certainly encorage a rebirth of teh study of language if it had fallen into decline

Dec 06 15:59:41 <Jim> One can check a chip's arithmetic processor by comparing different computations together without knowing how to add, subtract, multiply, or divide.

Dec 06 16:00:11 <NickE> Even Louis Wu has learnt a little of teh Heroes Tongue

Dec 06 16:00:53 <EML> "I'll have a heroes tongue on rye. Hold the mayo."

Dec 06 16:01:03 <Lensman> Cultural assumptions are built into languages. CJ Cherryh has often talked about how SF writers should learn a foreign language to be able to understand a different culture's POV.

Dec 06 16:02:19 <EML> as there is a lag ... were people expecting to discuss JUGGLER today?

Dec 06 16:03:13 <NickE> Still waiting fior Christmas <stick fingers in it were> :-)

Dec 06 16:03:17 <Lensman> Someone did ask on the list if we were gonna discuss Juggler today. I keep hoping someone will set up a dedicated JOW chat, as we did for FOW, but no one has stepped forward so far.

Dec 06 16:03:49 <Hippy> Well, my copy has arrived and is sitting on the teetering pile of books to be read once I can see well enough

Dec 06 16:04:02 <NickE> So Larry, Ed, how far along is Destroyer of Worlds?

Dec 06 16:04:06 <Lensman> Is your eyesight improving then, Hippy?

Dec 06 16:04:39 <EML> DESTROYER? Close to a complete first draft.

Dec 06 16:04:45 <Jim> Is DOW about making bombs?

Dec 06 16:05:05 <Jim> LOL

Dec 06 16:05:06 <EML> Bombs? How pedestrian.

Dec 06 16:05:19 <NickE> heh

Dec 06 16:05:28 <Hippy> Lens: yes. But my glasses are way off script, and there's no point getting a new pair until the graft settles down once they take the stitches out, which will be in January or February

Dec 06 16:05:30 <Larry> Destroyer of Worlds progresses.

Dec 06 16:05:43 <Hippy> So in the meantime I'm reading this in 22pt Footlight MT

Dec 06 16:05:43 * Lensman has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Dec 06 16:05:54 <NickE> glad to hear it

Dec 06 16:06:01 <NickE> 9DOW)

Dec 06 16:06:05 <Fred> I thought Lensman had no peer

Dec 06 16:06:34 <Hippy> LOL! (followed by coughing)

Dec 06 16:06:49 <Larry> Chores call. Fare you well.

Dec 06 16:06:59 <EML> Bye, Larry.

Dec 06 16:07:03 * Larry has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Dec 06 16:07:04 <Jim> Seeya Larry

Dec 06 16:07:08 <NickE> Bye Larry, thanks for dropping in

Dec 06 16:07:11 <Fred> and you sir. always a pleasure

Dec 06 16:07:16 <Fred> 2L8

Dec 06 16:07:47 * Lensman2 (~Lensman2@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 16:07:51 <EML> I'm sensing the stars are not aligned for a JUGGLER discussion today.

Dec 06 16:08:17 <Fred> Although I do find it disturbing that an award winning millionaire author in his 70s still has to do chores

Dec 06 16:08:17 * Hippy is now known as Hippy_AFK

Dec 06 16:08:25 <Hippy_AFK> Time to seize the day

Dec 06 16:08:31 <Jim> I don't see why not.

Dec 06 16:08:35 <Fred> That means there's NO hope for the rest of us

Dec 06 16:08:42 <oneukum> I need to do some ironing, too

Dec 06 16:08:49 <Jim> WWAD

Dec 06 16:09:03 <NickE> ?

Dec 06 16:09:20 * Lensman (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 16:09:30 <EML> Maybe he needed to sharpen his skates :-)

Dec 06 16:09:31 <Jim> What Would Ausfaller Do?

Dec 06 16:09:38 <NickE> Ah :-)

Dec 06 16:09:42 <Fred> ah

Dec 06 16:09:43 <NickE> Nice

Dec 06 16:09:44 <EML> What would Brian Boitano do?

Dec 06 16:09:44 * Lensman2 has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Dec 06 16:09:49 <Fred> WWSAD

Dec 06 16:10:09 <NickE> brb

Dec 06 16:10:14 <Fred> Ed, I bet he'd kick an ass or two

Dec 06 16:10:33 <Fred> That's what Brian Boitano'd do

Dec 06 16:10:46 <Jim> Was Ausfaller ever described as being an ARM paranoid before JOW?

Dec 06 16:11:16 <EML> Jim: paramoia is about all we DID know about Sigmund before Juggler.

Dec 06 16:12:26 <EML> and that he was an ARM.

Dec 06 16:12:37 <Fred> I assume it wouldn't be a JUGGLER spoiler just to say I enjoyed it tremendouslyl

Dec 06 16:12:51 <EML> It won't be spoil anything for me ;-)

Dec 06 16:13:04 <oneukum> some personal bravery Ausfaller showed dealing with the "pirates"

Dec 06 16:13:24 <Jim> Maybe I am paranoid, because Ausfaller always struck me as a semi-regular guy.

Dec 06 16:13:34 <EML> Oliver, are you referring to Borderlands of Sol there, or Juggler?

Dec 06 16:13:58 <oneukum> Borderlands. He could have made a plan and let somebody else executre it

Dec 06 16:14:32 <EML> True. (There's quite a lot more about that incident in Juggler.)

Dec 06 16:15:02 <Lensman> Ausfaller definitely did not appear paranoid in "Borderland" or "Ghost". Rather the opposite; rather naive. That's one of the problems I have with JOW, it's a totally different character for Siggy.

Dec 06 16:15:12 <Fred> Juggle describes the incident in all new euphamisms

Dec 06 16:15:23 <NickE> heh

Dec 06 16:15:49 <oneukum> True paranoia means to always appear harmless, so you are underestimated ;-)

Dec 06 16:15:56 <Lensman> OTOH both "Borderland" and "Ghost" are told from Bey's POV. Maybe he's not as good a judge of character as he thinks?

Dec 06 16:16:16 <Fred> or his ghostwriter isn't

Dec 06 16:16:48 <EML> I know the paranoia wasn't new to Juggler, but I can't be sure where we got it from. I would have guessed Ghost or Procrustes.

Dec 06 16:16:55 <Lensman> We are *not* reading the stories written by Bey's ghost writer.

Dec 06 16:18:04 <EML> INteresting, Fred. Are the Bey stories Bey's internal monolgue, to which we are priveleged, or "as told to Ander by ..."

Dec 06 16:18:11 <Lensman> Siggy seemed awfully trusting of Ander in "Ghost", seemed very naive. That's what got him killed. If he were truly as paranoid as he's portrayed in JOW, it is VERY out of character for him not to have been watching Ander.

Dec 06 16:18:57 <oneukum> Can you be both paranoid and suicidal?

Dec 06 16:19:13 <EML> That's fair, Lens. OTOH, Sigmund was focused on Bey just then, and what had happened to Carlos and Feather.

Dec 06 16:19:17 <Fred> sure

Dec 06 16:19:28 <Fred> kill yourself before they can get you

Dec 06 16:19:31 <Lensman> In "At the Core" the Puppeteer describes part of the ghost written story of "Neutron Star", and gives a phrase not found in the story. The versions of Bey's stories we're getting came from Bey, not from Ander.

Dec 06 16:19:38 <Fred> make sure it's painless

Dec 06 16:20:31 <Lensman> Ed: Since Bey's stories are first-person POV there's certainly room for other viewpoints. I'm not stating "facts" here, just my opinions.

Dec 06 16:21:48 <EML> Lens: I take no offense (why would I?). My own reading is that the Bey stories are entirely first-person POV.

Dec 06 16:22:20 <Lensman> It's an emotional thing, okay? I *liked* the "dapper gentleman" Siggy appeared to be in his first appearance. I *liked* the slightly buffoonish Siggy in "Borderland". The Siggy in JOW... just isn't the same guy at all. That doesn't make it a bad book, or an unreasonable interpretation, but it does make me unhappy that the Siggy I thought I knew and loved has been destroyed.

Dec 06 16:22:28 <Fred> Neutron Star certainly is, as it describes the bribe tide

Dec 06 16:22:44 <EML> The only ambiguity is between TRUE FP-POV and "as told to me by", which the narrator may twist.

Dec 06 16:24:04 * dmac44 (~dmac44@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 16:24:06 <EML> Hah -- good point, Fred. THere IS stuff in Neutron Star that Ander seems not to know in Juggler. Hence, the Shaeffer stores are true FP-POV.

Dec 06 16:24:41 <Fred> Dmac and Jalad at Tanagra.

Dec 06 16:24:56 <NickE> <grin>

Dec 06 16:25:14 <Lensman> Yah, but once you get into "Did Bey twist the facts" then you open up a *huge* can of worms. Did Bey fake the Core explosion? I don't think he could have without help, but one Niven fan thinks so! Siggy even suggests the same in JOW, which has fueled this fan's Grand Conspiracy theory.

Dec 06 16:25:54 <EML> Lens: sorry if Larry & I diminished Siggy for you. That said, I think you inferred a lot about a (then) minor character from a very small amount of data.

Dec 06 16:26:23 <Fred> I think it's in the DOWN IN FLAMES version in Playground that Larry says Bey sat in the Long Shot for 9 months while they faked the trip

Dec 06 16:26:28 <Lensman> I plead guilty to inferring a lot about a little. Working on the Concordance has led me down that path.

Dec 06 16:26:41 <Fred> does the trip take that long in AT THE CORE?

Dec 06 16:27:12 <Lensman> No, just 3 months.

Dec 06 16:27:17 <Lensman> Two out and one back.

Dec 06 16:27:20 <EML> Lens: what's this about a fan questioning the core explosion? If that's online somewhere, I'd love a pointer.

Dec 06 16:27:41 <Lensman> One moment while I get the URL

Dec 06 16:27:54 <Jim> Maybe what counts as an ARM paranoid is less that what we would count as a paranoid. Contemporary society places much stock in to whether or not a person is an productive member of society.

Dec 06 16:28:32 <Fred> also, we were effectively seeing Siggy 'undercover'

Dec 06 16:28:53 <Lensman>

Dec 06 16:29:12 <dmac44> Of course if Bey did fake the core explosion then why are the Pak coming?

Dec 06 16:29:33 <Fred> because they'd already paked their bags?

Dec 06 16:29:36 <Lensman> Bey did not see the core explosion which the Pak are fleeing. The timeline doesn't work.

Dec 06 16:29:38 <EML> You'll find out about the Pak and core explosion in DESTROYER.

Dec 06 16:29:52 * lemming has quit ()

Dec 06 16:29:56 <dmac44> That's as bad as your Tanagra joke :)

Dec 06 16:30:08 <Lensman> My fan theory is the Pak were fleeing an earlier, much smaller outburst.

Dec 06 16:31:15 <Lensman> ...or come to think of it, maybe they just realized it was *going* to explode, and all migrated at once for some inexplicable reason?

Dec 06 16:31:33 <oneukum> A prediction would be enough wouldn't it? A protector cannot wait until the best real estate is taken.

Dec 06 16:31:41 <EML> you'll likely know this time next year.

Dec 06 16:31:46 <Fred> or they could be hiding just inside a black hole at the center of the galaxy waiting for the 'all clear'

Dec 06 16:31:56 <Lensman> Oliver: Yes, your thinking parallels mine.

Dec 06 16:32:32 <EML> inside a black hole isn't safe -- even if you don't care about getting out, stuff can still fall in.

Dec 06 16:32:42 <dmac44> how does one get back out of a black hole?

Dec 06 16:32:45 <Lensman> "I admired your article on the neutron star BVS-1. 'The pointy bottom of a gravity well...'

Dec 06 16:33:17 <Lensman> The puppeteer is quoting something *not* in the version of "Neutron Star" that we have, and thus obviously it's from Ander's version.

Dec 06 16:33:26 <Fred> in Andromeda they used really strong bucky cables

Dec 06 16:33:40 <Fred> I forget if we ever knew the Heechhee solution

Dec 06 16:33:52 <Lensman> Go out of the white hole at the other end, obviously. :)

Dec 06 16:34:35 <dmac44> the heechee could go FTL. Just go FTL while in a black hole and the eveent horizon wouldn't stop you

Dec 06 16:35:07 <EML> Lens: why does a character in ATC quoting Ander's article about NS change whether ATC is told in FP-POV?

Dec 06 16:35:47 <Lensman> Actually the only "evidence" we have that the Pak were fleeing the core explosion is Brennan-monster's speculation that "perhaps something happened to the core" which prompted a mass migration. Brennan didn't know what we know about the core exploding, but that explosion happened thousands of years later.

Dec 06 16:35:48 * Jim has quit (Connection reset by peer)

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Dec 06 16:36:19 <EML> In KS, the Heechee solution to exiting a black hole won't work. Hyperdrive does not like singularities.

Dec 06 16:36:47 <Fred> unless there are no ship eating monsters at the core

Dec 06 16:37:07 <dmac44> I wasn't suggesting the same solution just noting the Heechee had a different approach

Dec 06 16:37:43 <Lensman> Ed: I'm not sure what you're saying. The puppeteer quotes from what he thinks is Bey's "Neutron Star" article, and asks if he is thinking of doing more writing. The passage he quotes isn't from Larry's "Neutron Star". Bey worries that the puppeteer might find out that the article was ghost-written.

Dec 06 16:37:46 <EML> Lens: yes, exactly. Brennan merely speculated. (And I happen to know he was wrong, as he was wrong earlier about expecting a follow-up Pak ship, rather than whole fleets.)

Dec 06 16:38:24 <Lensman> Ed: YOU BASTARD!!

Dec 06 16:38:34 <Lensman> Teasing us like that.

Dec 06 16:38:36 <EML> As smart as the Pak are, they can't know everything, especially when drawing inferences from very limited information.

Dec 06 16:38:54 <dmac44> Like us?

Dec 06 16:38:59 <Fred> so if Teela was wrong

Dec 06 16:39:07 <Fred> then maybe she's still alive

Dec 06 16:39:15 <Lensman> Yah, I'm glad Larry made that explicit in later Rw novels, that even protectors can make mistakes because you never have 100% information.

Dec 06 16:39:20 <Fred> like Harry Osborn, who simply forgot he was dead

Dec 06 16:39:36 <Lensman> LOL @Fred

Dec 06 16:39:38 <EML> of course Teela was a human protector, not a Pak protector.

Dec 06 16:40:01 <Fred> a female human, and thus prone to error

Dec 06 16:40:13 <Lensman> Larry told me personally he doesn't want to bring Teela back. But that was in 1981, so maybe we can persuade him to change his mind?

Dec 06 16:40:19 <EML> the smarter the breeder stage, the smarter the protector stage.

Dec 06 16:40:39 <Lensman> Humans are smarter than Pak, so Teela should be less prone to error than a Pak protector.

Dec 06 16:40:51 <Lensman> Just as Brennan was smarter than the Pak he was fighting.

Dec 06 16:41:16 <oneukum> truely? Or is this just a question of knowing that you can fail?

Dec 06 16:42:00 <EML> Kinda funny ... we tiptoe around discussing JUGGLER and instead verge on discussing DESTROYER.

Dec 06 16:42:41 <dmac44> So Ed, from your earlier comment, does that mean Destroyer will be published by 12/09?

Dec 06 16:43:11 <EML> dmac: best guess right now is 4Q09.

Dec 06 16:45:07 <Lensman> Ed: Yup, funny.

Dec 06 16:45:15 <EML> BTW ... I'm going to drop off in another few minutes.

Dec 06 16:45:37 <Jim> Seeya Ed

Dec 06 16:45:39 <Lensman> Is anyone logging this chat?

Dec 06 16:45:50 <EML> Before I go, I thought I'd mention my first radio interview (now a podcast):

Dec 06 16:45:51 <Jim> oops

Dec 06 16:46:14 <NickE> cool Ta Ed

Dec 06 16:46:39 <oneukum> Bye

Dec 06 16:46:39 <Fred> As James T. Kirk said in Star Trek The Motion Picture:

Dec 06 16:46:43 <Fred> "Radio??"

Dec 06 16:46:58 <EML> okay ... I'm off. Happy holidays, all.

Dec 06 16:47:03 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Dec 06 16:47:06 <Fred> U2

Dec 06 16:47:38 <Lensman> Do old technologies ever die? I think they're just marginalized. The Boy Scouts still teach semaphore, don't they?

Dec 06 16:47:58 <NickE> not in the UK

Dec 06 16:48:00 <Fred> Did you see that Bettie Page had a heart attack and is in a coma?

Dec 06 16:48:19 <Fred> Friend of mine says it's Forry, sending for his eternal soulmate

Dec 06 16:48:20 <Jim> Yes, Fred

Dec 06 16:48:36 <Lensman> The WW II pinup girl?

Dec 06 16:48:49 <Fred> as seen in THE ROCKETEER, yes

Dec 06 16:48:53 <Lensman> Or is she from a later era?

Dec 06 16:48:59 <Jim> Lensman, try 1950's.

Dec 06 16:49:43 <Lensman> Well, I was born in '55... so wasn't, y'know, interested in girls until sometime after about '65...

Dec 06 16:51:15 <Lensman> So what were y'all discussing before Ed came in?

Dec 06 16:53:18 <Fred> Ed was here when I got here

Dec 06 16:53:28 <Fred> and I'm having a nap attack

Dec 06 16:53:29 <Lensman> Steam power still gets used in the engines pulling sightseers in theme parks. Maybe semophores and signal fires really are a dead technology.

Dec 06 16:53:34 <Fred> au jus

Dec 06 16:53:40 <Jim> I scored a 0 in a winning hand of hearts. Just kidding, Larry was here before Ed came in.

Dec 06 16:53:54 * Fred has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Dec 06 16:54:05 <Jim> seeya fred

Dec 06 16:54:24 <Lensman> Did Larry leave just before Ed showed up, as usual?

Dec 06 16:55:20 <Jim> Lensman, no they were both in the chat at the same time. Ed could still be an AI chat- and email-bot.

Dec 06 16:56:12 <Jim> why can't I change the topic

Dec 06 16:56:30 <Lensman> LOL Well of course any of us could sign into this chat room in two different applications. As I did earlier whem my mIRC inexplicably booted me out.

Dec 06 16:57:00 <Lensman> Jim: You have to put #knownspace before /topic

Dec 06 16:57:18 * Hippy_AFK is now known as Hippy

Dec 06 16:57:25 <Lensman> Oh! Sorry, I just remembered Sean locked that option out.

Dec 06 16:57:30 <Jim> #knownspace /topic new topic

Dec 06 16:58:17 <oneukum> Good night people. I'll fetch somebody at the airport arriving at a godless hour tomorrow.

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Dec 06 16:58:34 <Jim> seeya Oliver

Dec 06 16:58:36 <Hippy> Goodnight, Oliver

Dec 06 16:59:25 <Lensman> Er, I think that's #knownspace AFTER /topic, but I get an "You're not channel operator" error.

Dec 06 16:59:45 <Lensman> Goodbye to everyone leaving.

Dec 06 17:00:04 <Lensman> I have Laser Rangers tonite, so will be in and out; mostly out.

Dec 06 17:00:22 <Jim> sounds like a fun club

Dec 06 17:00:45 <dmac44> I'm out too, happy holidays to all

Dec 06 17:00:59 <Jim> seeya

Dec 06 17:01:02 <Hippy> My mother is visiting today, so I must leave soon to clean up the place

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Dec 06 17:01:20 <Jim> seeya Hippy

Dec 06 17:01:49 <Hippy> 'Bye, Jim

Dec 06 17:02:02 <Hippy> 'Bye, everyone. See you all next year

Dec 06 17:02:24 <Hippy> Oh, wait. Lens, do you have an electronic copy of 'For A Foggy Night' about the place?

Dec 06 17:02:43 <SeanS> hmm, EML and Larry on at the same time? was that a first?

Dec 06 17:03:02 <Jim> I think it was.

Dec 06 17:03:28 <Hippy> Ed seemed to suggest that

Dec 06 17:03:44 <SeanS> I will have to send the log to Mark first thing in the morning.

Dec 06 17:05:00 <Jim> Well my back is starting to act up, so I will see you all next year.

Dec 06 17:05:03 <Jim> bye

Dec 06 17:05:06 <SeanS> heh

Dec 06 17:05:18 <NickE> bye Jim

Dec 06 17:05:20 <SeanS> later Jim

Dec 06 17:05:33 * Jim (~chatzilla@72.169.212.XX) has left #knownspace

Dec 06 17:05:41 <Hippy> 'Bye, Jim, everyone. This time I will depart

Dec 06 17:05:47 <SeanS> I just got home from a friend's daughters first birthday party

Dec 06 17:05:50 * Hippy has quit ()

Dec 06 17:15:26 <NickE> 1 is a bit young for a party. More for the adults :-)

Dec 06 17:24:14 <SeanS> yep... she had to take a nap in the middle of it. It was also an opportunity to show off the new house.

Dec 06 17:28:45 <SeanS> hmm, just caught up on the list. Some people had problems getting in?

Dec 06 17:32:28 <Lensman> I had a very strange thing happen when I signed on, mIRC went to a registration screen, and then later kicked me out, and when I tried to sign back in it paused for a long time.

Dec 06 17:32:37 <Lensman> But then I tried again later and it was okay.

Dec 06 17:33:01 <Lensman> May have been operator error making it go to the registration, tho.

Dec 06 17:33:33 <Lensman> But I came in late, so not sure that's the same problems others were having. I got in thru the Java link right away.

Dec 06 17:39:26 <NickE> may be back later. Got a virtual award ceremony to try and get into (The Signal won the Movies and Films cat for the 2008 Podcast Awards)

Dec 06 17:39:52 <NickE>

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Dec 06 17:50:55 <NickE> damn, missed the boat. But we did win our category :-)

Dec 06 17:52:17 <SeanS> I wouldn't know

Dec 06 17:52:51 <SeanS> what were ya up for?

Dec 06 17:59:36 <NickE> Best Movies and Films Podcast

Dec 06 18:00:33 <NickE> We won Best Produced and Best Movies and Films Cast back in 2006, but Best Produced winners are not eligible more than once every 2 years

Dec 06 18:01:07 <NickE> Won the 2007 Parsec Award for best Fancast

Dec 06 18:01:23 <NickE> I actually have that on my mantlepice

Dec 06 18:03:25 <NickE> The Podcats Award means we beat the gorram Force Cast!

Dec 06 18:03:48 <NickE> Serenity fandom kicks SW fandom's butt :-)

Dec 06 18:04:19 <NickE> This year anyway :-)

Dec 06 18:12:16 <SeanS> heh

Dec 06 18:12:20 <SeanS> excellent

Dec 06 18:12:56 <NickE> We win a nice perspex award a couple of books and a nice USB mike

Dec 06 18:12:57 <SeanS> i should check your stuff out more. my problem is that I am just overloaded with media

Dec 06 18:13:31 <NickE> You should check teh holiday special coming out probably this Tuesday

Dec 06 18:13:41 <SeanS> i dont have enough time to keep up with what i have.... let alone something new

Dec 06 18:13:55 <SeanS> has ep 3 of IT crowd aired yet?

Dec 06 18:14:05 <NickE> It has the final episode of Badgers Worls which was by far the most complex audio editing job I have ever attempted

Dec 06 18:14:19 <NickE> Yes, was hilarious

Dec 06 18:14:48 <SeanS> i was surprised when it fired up again. I thought it was done after last season

Dec 06 18:15:21 <NickE> its variable, but has moments of total LOL lunacy

Dec 06 18:15:36 <SeanS> yep... even julie likes it

Dec 06 18:15:43 <SeanS> i see it was posted a day ago

Dec 06 18:16:49 <SeanS> the irish guy lost a bunch of weight since last year

Dec 06 18:17:37 <SeanS> the gay ep from last year was one of the funniest shows i have EVER seen

Dec 06 18:19:24 <SeanS> did you have any training in audio editing or just pick it up as you go?

Dec 06 18:21:57 <NickE> just picked it up

Dec 06 18:22:47 <NickE> I am in awe of some of the stuff donme professionally having now had just a taster of how flippin complicated it can be

Dec 06 18:23:34 * rimworlder (~rimworlder@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 06 18:23:40 <NickE> The last Badgers World ran to 40 synchronised tracks, all independantly panned and gain adjusted, plus FX

Dec 06 18:23:58 <rimworlder> hello!

Dec 06 18:24:09 <NickE> Took me 3 days to do just over 9 minutes of audio drama

Dec 06 18:24:13 <SeanS> hi rimworlder

Dec 06 18:24:19 <rimworlder> hey sean

Dec 06 18:24:19 <NickE> Hi

Dec 06 18:24:23 <rimworlder> nick

Dec 06 18:24:46 <rimworlder> have I missed most of the discussion or not started yet or...?

Dec 06 18:25:08 <SeanS> i wasnt here early but i understand both Larry Niven and Ed Lerner were in

Dec 06 18:25:09 <NickE> sorry, you missed Larry and Ed Lerner

Dec 06 18:25:31 <rimworlder> at least I remembered to check in, which is more than I can say for the past several months

Dec 06 18:25:53 <SeanS> I will send the log to mark in the morning so it will be available via as soon as he posts it

Dec 06 18:25:54 <NickE> DOW sounds like it will be good

Dec 06 18:26:08 <rimworlder> cool

Dec 06 18:26:13 <SeanS> i just saw that they had stopped in.. havent read the log

Dec 06 18:26:41 <rimworlder> oh well... I was looking to commiserate a bit, what with Forry's passing

Dec 06 18:26:52 <NickE> Yeah, real shame

Dec 06 18:27:06 <SeanS> i totally missed the Forry reference.

Dec 06 18:27:16 <rimworlder> but he went the way he wanted, which I think is important

Dec 06 18:27:21 <NickE> Saw him just once at WorldCon 2005. Never got a chance to say hello tho

Dec 06 18:27:31 <rimworlder> forrest j ackerman

Dec 06 18:27:36 <SeanS> ah

Dec 06 18:27:45 <rimworlder> I spend about half a day with him back in '77

Dec 06 18:27:53 <rimworlder> I wanted to BE 4SJ, lol

Dec 06 18:27:59 <rimworlder> or rather, own his mansion

Dec 06 18:28:25 <rimworlder> I'd even take the bungalo

Dec 06 18:30:13 <NickE> Aye, I would love to have seen the Ackermansion

Dec 06 18:32:02 <SeanS> the ackermansion something to see i take it

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Dec 06 18:36:47 <SeanS> hi euan, bye euan

Dec 06 18:43:56 <rimworlder> gotta ftp, so I'll say goodbye

Dec 06 18:44:08 <SeanS> kk

Dec 06 18:44:08 * rimworlder has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Dec 06 18:44:17 <SeanS> my transfer was done in about 4 minutes

Dec 06 18:45:50 <SeanS> after the new version of suse linux comes out in a week and a half, I am moving the server back to lunux

Dec 06 18:45:53 <SeanS> linux

Dec 06 18:46:34 <SeanS> going to work with neil prichard on the config file... everytime i have have messed with it before, i goof it some how and the server wont boot

Dec 06 18:50:46 <NickE> k

Dec 06 18:51:00 <NickE> Going to head fior bed shortly

Dec 06 18:51:17 <NickE> typing really bad on new laptop

Dec 06 18:51:21 <SeanS> almost midnight there isnt it?

Dec 06 18:51:29 <NickE> not that drunk :-)

Dec 06 18:51:34 <NickE> yeah

Dec 06 18:51:39 <NickE> 10 to

Dec 06 18:51:39 <SeanS> i got a new tv

Dec 06 18:51:47 <NickE> Plasma?

Dec 06 18:51:49 <SeanS> lcd

Dec 06 18:51:53 <NickE> Nice

Dec 06 18:52:07 <SeanS> my rear projection decided red needed to not hang out with the other colors

Dec 06 18:52:15 <NickE> Still on a CRT

Dec 06 18:52:31 <NickE> Ah, red was always a snobby bugger

Dec 06 18:52:34 <NickE> :-)

Dec 06 18:52:51 <SeanS> i had looked at this tv aat circuit city and it was priced at 1800 bucks. 47 inch LG

Dec 06 18:53:08 <NickE> 47 crikey

Dec 06 18:53:23 <NickE> I wouldnt have the rom

Dec 06 18:53:32 <SeanS> went to another store during a sale and they had it marked down for the sale at 1299. told the guy i would go with a 46 inch sony for 1182

Dec 06 18:54:25 <SeanS> he went and crunched numbers with the boss and sold me the tv for 1099 and the mount for 78 total price 1 dollar less than the 46inch with a wall mount

Dec 06 18:54:36 <SeanS> might send the sales guy a christmas card

Dec 06 18:54:38 <NickE> nice

Dec 06 18:54:53 <SeanS> any bigger and I wouldnt have room

Dec 06 18:55:09 <NickE> Well, its a buyers market with the way shit is now

Dec 06 18:55:19 <SeanS> 1080p but i dont have a HD source yet

Dec 06 18:55:47 <SeanS> true

Dec 06 18:55:50 <NickE> Well Firefly and Serenity are both available on Blu Ray now

Dec 06 18:55:58 <SeanS> got to get a player first

Dec 06 18:56:08 <NickE> True

Dec 06 18:56:09 <SeanS> and those will probably my first purchases

Dec 06 18:56:17 <NickE> Price is coming down

Dec 06 18:56:23 <SeanS> a blueray burner is a year or 2 away

Dec 06 18:56:24 <NickE> Glad to hear it

Dec 06 18:56:35 <NickE> Yeah, wont be long

Dec 06 18:56:58 <SeanS> lg 47lg50 if you want to look at the specs

Dec 06 18:57:49 <SeanS> the not hd satellite feed looks pretty good, but a dvd is crisp as hell.

Dec 06 18:57:56 <NickE> Won't mean much to me, not up on what's good and what's not, at leat not untill I can contemplate spending that much on a telly

Dec 06 18:58:15 <NickE> They do look nice in teh shopd tho

Dec 06 18:58:18 <SeanS> i think the showroom view sucks because they are feeding 50 tv's from one source

Dec 06 18:58:22 <NickE> shops

Dec 06 18:59:08 <NickE> Some are sucky true, but have seen some individual setups that are very impressive

Dec 06 18:59:28 <SeanS> now when they pop a dvd in for just one tv, it is as good or better than a theater

Dec 06 18:59:37 <SeanS> blueray that is

Dec 06 18:59:48 <NickE> I just cant bring myself to contemplate spending more on a TV than I would on a computer

Dec 06 19:00:13 <SeanS> well... i only have one tv.

Dec 06 19:00:33 <NickE> fair enough

Dec 06 19:00:43 <SeanS> 4 crts would come out to about the same amount of cash

Dec 06 19:00:53 <NickE> crikey, we have 4

Dec 06 19:01:02 <SeanS> most people have about 4 nowadays

Dec 06 19:01:12 <NickE> 5 actually

Dec 06 19:01:26 <SeanS> heh, it even has a vga input to run the puter straight into it

Dec 06 19:01:29 <NickE> One isn't in use right now

Dec 06 19:01:37 <NickE> nice

Dec 06 19:01:48 <SeanS> runs 1920x1080 res

Dec 06 19:01:57 <NickE> Were given 3 of them though

Dec 06 19:02:04 <SeanS> reckon i could use it as my primary monitor if i wanted ot

Dec 06 19:02:05 <SeanS> to

Dec 06 19:04:47 <SeanS> i have a dozen crt monitors in the basement that were given to me. i keep them just in case somebody needs one if their monitor goofs and they are ordering a new one

Dec 06 19:07:46 <NickE> well, heading off to bed now

Dec 06 19:07:53 <NickE> nice chatting

Dec 06 19:08:00 <SeanS> later my friend

Dec 06 19:08:14 <NickE> later mate

Dec 06 19:08:18 <NickE> Night

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