Chat Log: December 1st 2007

Dec 01 13:05:55 * NickE (~NickE@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 13:06:17 <NickE> early check in

Dec 01 13:10:06 <SeanS> heh...

Dec 01 13:10:11 <NickE> Hi Sean

Dec 01 13:10:13 <SeanS> just walked in the door here

Dec 01 13:10:29 <SeanS> gotta go get the giant bag of dog food out of the truck

Dec 01 13:10:48 <NickE> gotta go feed my brood

Dec 01 13:10:53 <NickE> :-)

Dec 01 13:11:01 <NickE> back in a bit

Dec 01 13:11:47 <SeanS> k

Dec 01 13:16:08 * Hippy (~captlychee@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 13:16:42 <Hippy> Good afternoon, everyone

Dec 01 13:30:20 * Received a CTCP PING 1196533614 from Hippy (to #knownspace)

Dec 01 13:30:23 <NickE> Hi DJ

Dec 01 13:30:44 <Hippy> Afternoon, Nick

Dec 01 13:31:01 <Hippy> How's it going in wintry Ontario?

Dec 01 13:31:12 <Hippy> If I have that right. . .

Dec 01 13:31:25 <NickE> Nope, thats Neil

Dec 01 13:31:34 <NickE> Wet n windy in teh UK

Dec 01 13:31:44 <SeanS> cold and cloudy here

Dec 01 13:32:06 <SeanS> reading the accidental time machine by joe haldeman. not bad

Dec 01 13:32:14 <SeanS> never read haldeman before

Dec 01 13:32:19 <NickE> Just bougth Old Twentieth by him

Dec 01 13:32:28 <NickE> I like a lot of his stuff

Dec 01 13:32:44 <NickE> But got FoW to read first ;-)

Dec 01 13:33:08 <SeanS> i havent got a copy of fleet yet

Dec 01 13:33:10 <NickE> Forever War is excellent

Dec 01 13:33:34 <NickE> (nit read any of the sequels tho)

Dec 01 13:33:50 <Hippy> I liked 'Forever War' but it's been a while since I read any Haldeman at all.

Dec 01 13:34:01 <NickE> Nothing like getting new shiny Niven in your mailbox

Dec 01 13:34:14 <Hippy> Fleet is on the pile to read but will sadly require a new cornea to look at it through.

Dec 01 13:34:30 <NickE> Most recent of his I read was Long Habit of Living, which I liked a lot

Dec 01 13:34:38 <NickE> ohbummer]

Dec 01 13:34:52 <NickE> laserable?

Dec 01 13:35:26 <Hippy> It's a bit annoying. I've yet to read even 'Destiny's Forge' but I'm on the waiting list so in due course they'll get me in for a graft

Dec 01 13:35:42 <Hippy> Just so long as it doesn't happen while I'm moving house

Dec 01 13:36:23 <NickE> Hope it ssoon then. DF is pretty good too

Dec 01 13:37:05 <Hippy> I read the opening essay on kzinti life and I thought that was excellent, so if the rest of the book is that good I sahll be pleased

Dec 01 13:37:17 <Hippy> Hey. . has Hal Colebatch ever been on here?

Dec 01 13:37:33 <SeanS> hmm

Dec 01 13:37:52 <NickE> I think if he was I missed it

Dec 01 13:38:21 <SeanS> ed lerner has been here

Dec 01 13:38:26 <Hippy> Just curious. As a fellow countryman I feel like I shuld stick together with him

Dec 01 13:38:33 <SeanS> dont remember hal colebatch

Dec 01 13:38:38 <SeanS> let me run a search of the log

Dec 01 13:38:43 <NickE> Ed has been in quite a bit lately

Dec 01 13:38:56 <Hippy> Ah, yes, the extremely good value and intersting Ed - and Paul Chafe for that matter

Dec 01 13:38:58 <NickE> Moer than Larry in fact :-)

Dec 01 13:39:03 <Hippy> Now all we need is Brenda Cooper

Dec 01 13:39:36 <NickE> Well, last time she was here was for Frank's wake

Dec 01 13:39:43 <Hippy> And Jerry Pournelle, David Gerrold, Michael Flynn. . .

Dec 01 13:39:55 <NickE> Well, yes :-)

Dec 01 13:40:50 <NickE> Poor old Bill Warren hasn't been well, so the reliquery is behind schedule

Dec 01 13:40:57 <Hippy> I read the FoW chat log and that was most interesting. I wish I'd been here for that - except that I would've had no cogent questions to ask

Dec 01 13:41:19 <NickE> I missed it on purpose as I didnt want to be spoiled

Dec 01 13:41:38 <SeanS> i logged it but didnt participate

Dec 01 13:41:56 <NickE> I'll read it when I've read the book

Dec 01 13:42:07 <SeanS> just checked the log and hal has not been on at least not with 'hal' as part of his nickname

Dec 01 13:42:20 <Hippy> Ah, well, I read it so now when I read the book I'll have things to watch out for, have doubts about, take umbrage about :)

Dec 01 13:42:22 <NickE> Didnt think so

Dec 01 13:42:31 <NickE> heh

Dec 01 13:42:47 <NickE> Gonna be multitasking tonight

Dec 01 13:43:05 <Hippy> Maybe he's 'zihr'?

Dec 01 13:43:07 <NickE> Got to eat at some point (brood fed already)

Dec 01 13:43:42 <NickE> Then do a conference call to record an episode commentary

Dec 01 13:43:43 <Hippy> I'll probably need a wake-up cup of tea in a minute, too

Dec 01 13:43:49 <NickE> Do this chat

Dec 01 13:44:00 <NickE> And maybe get some recording done

Dec 01 13:44:08 <Hippy> Episode of what??? How interestting!

Dec 01 13:44:29 <NickE> A Buffy audio drama I'm in

Dec 01 13:44:43 <NickE>

Dec 01 13:44:53 <NickE> Its going well

Dec 01 13:44:57 <Hippy> Well, I'll be. . .how did you get onto that?

Dec 01 13:45:04 <NickE> I got asked :-)

Dec 01 13:45:48 <NickE> I do a lot of podcasting these days, mainly The Signal (the main Firefly/Serenity one)

Dec 01 13:45:56 <Hippy> This is a legitimate thing or a fan thing?

Dec 01 13:46:06 <NickE> Totally fan based

Dec 01 13:46:11 <NickE> so no money

Dec 01 13:46:43 <Hippy> I'm still impressed. Like that 'all fan' Star Trek they have online

Dec 01 13:47:00 <NickE> but it's organised very well and we have a professional composer doing the original music for free

Dec 01 13:47:55 <NickE> YEah, this is trying to do the same for Buffy but in audio form. Some of the voice actors are spookily like the original actors

Dec 01 13:48:02 <NickE> I'm not :-)

Dec 01 13:48:24 <NickE> But I'm English, so I get to do a fair go at Spike's attitude

Dec 01 13:49:32 <NickE> A Firefly Between The Lines is likely at some point as well, but we have Season 2 of BBtL first, then Angel, possibly Sugarshock too before we get to that

Dec 01 13:49:42 <Hippy> Ah, yes. just spotted you in the cast list

Dec 01 13:50:42 <Hippy> What is Sugarshock?

Dec 01 13:50:58 <NickE> If anyone is interested in becoming involved, acting, sound editing, beta reading and lots of other roles, applications are open now

Dec 01 13:51:17 <Hippy> Ah, the sun's just coming up and it's a rosy pink Dawn (reference) here

Dec 01 13:51:55 <Hippy> I'll let some of my friends know. They are much bigger fans of Buffy than I am

Dec 01 13:52:10 <NickE> heh. Tasha, who plays Dawn is spookily liek Michele Trachtenburg

Dec 01 13:52:25 <NickE> Please do, teh more the merrier

Dec 01 13:53:02 <NickE>

Dec 01 13:53:13 <NickE> is where the sign up info is

Dec 01 13:54:37 <Hippy> I"ll mention it on tonight's IRC chat

Dec 01 13:55:14 <NickE> Cool.

Dec 01 13:56:57 <Hippy> Strange to not see Lensman here

Dec 01 13:57:00 * NickE has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Dec 01 13:58:03 <Hippy> Now that's interesting. I always thought that message was a server fault, but it appears it's a fault at the user end, since this server stays up forever

Dec 01 13:58:38 <SeanS> its primarily a windows error. or a router blip between the server and whoever

Dec 01 13:58:54 * NickE (~NickE@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 13:58:59 <NickE> wtf?

Dec 01 13:59:19 <NickE> I think Real Player was to blame there

Dec 01 13:59:29 <SeanS> on the local machine you see (in mirc) software caused connection abort. which basically means the windows tcp/ip protocol stack screwed up

Dec 01 13:59:57 <NickE> Was recording Summertime of Icarus (reading) from BBc7 when it all went dead...except Skype

Dec 01 14:00:16 <SeanS> on the same lan as the server, mirc under windows loses connection all the time. this linux box running xchat has stayed connected for months at a time

Dec 01 14:00:20 <NickE> The Metusalas Children one was good

Dec 01 14:00:44 <NickE> I'm running Euan's Java connection

Dec 01 14:01:00 <SeanS> under windows?

Dec 01 14:01:28 * Lensman (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 14:01:35 <NickE> yeah

Dec 01 14:01:35 <Hippy> Well, I'm running mIRC because simple is better and familiar is comforting. Who is reading Sir Arthur's fine story?

Dec 01 14:01:37 <NickE> Hi Lens

Dec 01 14:01:46 <Hippy> Howdy, Lens

Dec 01 14:01:55 <Lensman> Hi, fen!

Dec 01 14:02:21 <Hippy> Lens, I have a question to ask about the way US streets are numbered

Dec 01 14:02:33 <Lensman> Yes?

Dec 01 14:02:52 <Hippy> I looked up your street on Google Maps out of a sense of idle curiosity, and discovered that your street is about two hundred yards long

Dec 01 14:03:04 <Hippy> So how can your house number be so high???

Dec 01 14:03:06 <NickE> hm not sure. I'll try recording again

Dec 01 14:03:47 <Hippy> I like the idea that they're doing old classic SF rather than these new stories

Dec 01 14:04:32 <NickE> Yeah. They are also doing some old 50s radio SF

Dec 01 14:04:37 <Hippy> I have to presume that the street numbering doesn't start from number 1 and go onwards. Each house would only be about 2 inches wide if that were the case

Dec 01 14:04:57 <Hippy> Even better!

Dec 01 14:06:49 <NickE> HAvent listned to and Atomic Stories yet, but will

Dec 01 14:07:10 <NickE> Gotta snag it quick tho as it's only on Listen Again for 7 days

Dec 01 14:07:18 <Lensman> We live at 123rd Terrace & Pinehurst. The 12325 is a result of us living near 123rd street. All numbers in our town are according to the "grid", so you may be able to tell where someone lives with just the number, *if* you know whether they live on a north/south or an east/west street. But to complicate matters, the numbered streets in K.C. KS run N/S, but elsewhere in the Greater Kansas City area run E/W.

Dec 01 14:07:59 <NickE> Atomic Tales actually

Dec 01 14:08:05 <Lensman> Not all cities in the U.S. use the grid system, tho.

Dec 01 14:09:26 <Hippy> No, but it does explain how you can have such high numbers in a short street. Mystery solved. I think the Canadians may use the same system, because some of their addresses are the same sort of thing

Dec 01 14:10:06 <Lensman> And house numbers on numbered streets start at zero from a "main street", and are differentiated "North" or "South". And much confusion arises when someone doesn't give a N. or S. designation...

Dec 01 14:11:33 <Lensman> Also, in Kansas City KS, the main street isn't "Main Street", it's "Minnesota Ave."

Dec 01 14:12:36 <Hippy> Well, there you go. I'm moving to Ballarat (50 miles NW of Melbourne) soon, and the 'North' and 'South' designations are important there, too

Dec 01 14:12:39 <Lensman> So, is this radio program y'all are talking about on an Internet station, or a nationally syndicated show?

Dec 01 14:12:44 <Hippy> So I expect a lot of mail to go missing

Dec 01 14:14:26 <Lensman> I once had a summer job delivering coupon books. Had an address once which turned out to be "North" when the caller said it was "South". Tried to tell that person when I finally found their address, and they were affronted... *they* knew where they lived, after all! (The customer is always right...)

Dec 01 14:16:38 <NickE>

Dec 01 14:16:49 <Lensman> Well, I have stuff to do before company arrives. Hopefully I'll be back to chat for awhile at the "official" time.

Dec 01 14:16:50 <NickE> Its the BBC

Dec 01 14:17:00 * Lensman is now known as Lensman_free

Dec 01 14:18:39 <Hippy> Isn't it the official time now?

Dec 01 14:18:56 * Hippy better not have got up this early on a Sunday for nothing :)

Dec 01 14:19:19 <NickE> I think teh normal time is 8pm GMT

Dec 01 14:19:25 <NickE> Noon PST

Dec 01 14:20:17 <NickE> Which is when Larry shows up if he's going to

Dec 01 14:20:27 <NickE> usually

Dec 01 14:25:12 <Hippy> Ah. .. of course! I checked the time on the server which is of course, Kentucky time

Dec 01 14:25:41 <Hippy> So I could've had a few extra hours sleep. . .ah, well. Sleep is for the decaffeinated

Dec 01 14:26:07 <Lensman_free> Official start time is in about 1/2 hour; boilerplate says if Larry shows up, it's about 1 pm PST, which is 1 1/2 hours from now.

Dec 01 14:26:49 <NickE> heh. The commentary I'm doing is being moderated by someone calling himself The Encaffeinated One

Dec 01 14:27:11 <NickE> Oh yeah, forgat that

Dec 01 14:31:55 <Hippy> That's 8:00AM here I've been getting up this early for no reason. There is even a rooster crowing outside at the moment

Dec 01 14:32:07 <NickE> <grin>

Dec 01 14:33:11 <NickE> Nice day?

Dec 01 14:34:49 <Hippy> Shaping up to be cool and a bit windy. Which will be a relief after the swelter of the last two days

Dec 01 14:35:07 <Hippy> I was sweating out of places I never knew I had

Dec 01 14:35:13 <NickE> Oh that was good. Summertime of Icarus read by Tim Piggot Smith

Dec 01 14:35:21 * Lensman_free is now known as Lensman

Dec 01 14:35:57 <Hippy> A good choice of reader there

Dec 01 14:37:00 <Lensman> Is xihr an actual person or a ghost?

Dec 01 14:37:28 <NickE> not sure. <waves at xihr>

Dec 01 14:37:42 <Lensman> Hi xihr! Do we know you?

Dec 01 14:39:30 <NickE> Lens, there seems to be some good discussion in the RWRPG list agin

Dec 01 14:39:47 <NickE> Been quite for a while

Dec 01 14:39:55 <Hippy> Ooh, I might get in on that

Dec 01 14:39:59 <NickE> (Dave Gordon busy with family stuff)

Dec 01 14:40:17 <NickE> Please do, some good kzinti stuff

Dec 01 14:40:40 <Lensman> Oh, are you on that too Nick? Yes, I agree. Different slant on things, tho... I agree that it makes a more interesting scenario if the hominids on the Map of Earth are sentient, or some of them anyway, but strictly non-canonical!

Dec 01 14:40:43 <NickE> I need to go see Dave to get the ARC signed

Dec 01 14:41:11 <Hippy> I always thought he did a good job on the Kdatlyno, talking about their long vengeance plans. Room for an MKW story in that

Dec 01 14:41:20 <NickE> Yeah, RW is big enough that canon is OK< but can be fun to mess with in a game setting

Dec 01 14:41:30 <NickE> Aye

Dec 01 14:41:50 <Lensman> Whose Kdatlyno story?

Dec 01 14:41:54 <NickE> I'm there, just not very active lately

Dec 01 14:42:24 <NickE> er Larry's I assume

Dec 01 14:42:35 <NickE> Grendel mostly I imagine

Dec 01 14:43:17 <Hippy> John - er, RWRPG guy - Hewitt? Anyway, he wrote some good background on the kdatlyno for the game that would make good background for an MKW story

Dec 01 14:43:39 <NickE> Oh Hewitts stuff was excellent

Dec 01 14:43:44 <Lensman> Oh, I see, you mean Lloobee's (sp?) revenge on his kidnappers, I thought you meant the Kdat race vs. the Kzinti.

Dec 01 14:43:58 <NickE> Such a shame he's gone

Dec 01 14:44:08 <Hippy> He wrote that their culture is rich in literature of long-term vengeance, so of cours they would exact vengenace against the Kzinti over a long period

Dec 01 14:44:31 <Hippy> Yes, it's a terrible shame

Dec 01 14:44:37 <Lensman> I'm very sad that I never got around to starting work on my Concordance until years after Hewitt passed away. A kindred soul there, I would love to have corresponded with him!

Dec 01 14:44:58 <NickE> That would indeed have been interesting

Dec 01 14:45:12 <Lensman> And I'd give my eye-teeth for copies of the letters he exchanged with Larry...

Dec 01 14:45:21 <NickE> heh

Dec 01 14:45:38 <Hippy> Now there's a collection worth publishing

Dec 01 14:46:01 <NickE> agreed

Dec 01 14:46:59 <Lensman> It's very frustrating to me to know that some stuff in the RPG should be considered canonical, 'cuz Hewitt worked it out with Larry. But I have no idea what is and what isn't!

Dec 01 14:47:45 <Hippy> Hang on. Wouldn't that then make stuff in the MKW stories equally canonical?

Dec 01 14:48:01 <NickE> If I was writing fan fic (not) I'd consider most of it as good as canon

Dec 01 14:48:14 <NickE> BBL gotta go eat

Dec 01 14:48:14 <Lensman> I've included some of Hewitt's stuff in the specifications of KS worlds and their stars. Length of year, satellites, stuff like that.

Dec 01 14:48:16 <Hippy> Me, too

Dec 01 14:48:53 <Lensman> Hippy: Only to the extent that the author ran stuff past Larry before finishing the story.

Dec 01 14:49:01 <Hippy> For example, have you included that Down has a large Asian population? That's in the game, but not in 'The Handicapped'

Dec 01 14:49:29 <Lensman> And we have no evidence Larry collaborated on any of the stories. AFAIK he acted as the editor.

Dec 01 14:49:47 <Hippy> Hmm. So what about the Jotoki? Are they canon since they appear in 'Fly By Night'?

Dec 01 14:49:57 <Lensman> Anyway, look at /A Darker Geometry/. No way did Larry approve of the excesses of that!

Dec 01 14:50:43 <Hippy> LOL!! Bloody good thing he didn't, either. What on Earth was. .. what's his name thinking?

Dec 01 14:50:56 * Hippy shamefacedly admits he can't remember who wrote it

Dec 01 14:51:17 <Lensman> Certainly Jotaki are canonical, as they appeared in "Fly-By-Night". That doesn't mean everything said about them is canonical, tho. However, Bey *did* raise the question in the story about the Jotoki being the source of the Kzinti star-faring technology. So it appears Larry's left that possibility open.

Dec 01 14:52:06 <Lensman> Gregory Benford and IIRC Mark O. Martin (Lensman just added the MKW stories to his IKSC bibliography.)

Dec 01 14:52:45 <Hippy> Benford! I knew it had a 'B' but I wasn't game to say David Brin

Dec 01 14:53:18 <Lensman> Brin is a better writer than that. In my highly prejudiced opinion, anyway.

Dec 01 14:54:07 <Hippy> Well, Brin would respect the canon rather than 're-inventing' it to suit his own ends

Dec 01 14:54:33 <Lensman> That's part of what I mean by "better", yah.

Dec 01 14:56:05 <Hippy> "I don't like the idea of big, intelligent felines. So I've made the Kzinti plastic androids who dress up as big, intelligent felines. In reality, they resemble the Furballines, which feature in my upcoming novel 'Furballs Do Oahu'." That is too self-indulgent

Dec 01 14:57:14 * Hippy afk briefly to re-invent the tnuctip so they resmeble a cup of tea

Dec 01 14:57:22 <Lensman> Someone keeps insisting in the MKW article at Wikipedia that all MKW stories are canonical. I re-wrote the section to indicate otherwise. Looked at it just a couple of days ago... pinhead actually re-wrote my entry, saying that Ed Lerner's comment re ADG wasn't "official" as it didn't come directly from Larry himself!

Dec 01 14:59:02 <Lensman> Hippy: Are you actually referring to ADG? It's been too long since I read it (well not really...), I don't really remember all the reasons it left a bad taste in my mouth. I *do* remember the Puppeteer "Guardian" soldiers... *Shudder*

Dec 01 15:00:27 * Dan (~vila@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 15:00:42 <Dan> Greetings, Programs!

Dec 01 15:00:43 <Lensman> Welcome to the Niven chat, Dan!

Dec 01 15:01:01 <Hippy> Yes. In ADG Benford re-invents the Outsiders as some kind of extra-universal beings brought to us by hyperintelligent pan-dimensional beings and it was just stupid

Dec 01 15:01:19 <Hippy> Selected time of day greetings to you, Dan.

Dec 01 15:01:36 <Lensman> Oh yah, I remember his absurd slant on Outsiders. I just don't remember his slant, if any, on the Kzinti.

Dec 01 15:01:40 * Hippy has no idea what time it is where D - oh, hang on. Georgia

Dec 01 15:02:00 <Dan> Yeah, it's just after 3 PM here, Hippy.

Dec 01 15:02:38 <Dan> My wife and I just got back from a nice little walk to the local store. About 45 minutes walk each way.

Dec 01 15:02:46 <Hippy> He didn't have one. I was merely describing the generic fan writer (or legitimate writer, if Benford is the example) who claims to write in someone's universe but actually just pushes their own barrows

Dec 01 15:03:04 <Hippy> How's your arm, Dan?

Dec 01 15:03:25 <Lensman> Hippy: -k-

Dec 01 15:04:02 <Dan> Doing much better. I'm typing with both hands now, but still can't lift my left arm very high. I can just about get it parallel to the floor now.

Dec 01 15:04:19 <Lensman> I guess xihr is a ghost or a 'bot, as s/he never responded to our greetings.

Dec 01 15:05:08 <Dan> They were here last night when I was talking with Sean.

Dec 01 15:05:14 <SeanS> xihr has been here since thursday. I dont know who it is

Dec 01 15:05:23 <Hippy> They might be AFK until the official start time

Dec 01 15:05:39 <Lensman> It is now after official start time.

Dec 01 15:05:45 <Hippy> Oh, well no human (other than Frank) could stay on for that amount of time

Dec 01 15:06:00 <SeanS> heh

Dec 01 15:06:02 <Hippy> So it is

Dec 01 15:06:18 <Hippy> We could kick them and see if they come back :)

Dec 01 15:06:40 <SeanS> most clients auto rejoin if set

Dec 01 15:07:02 <Hippy> Oh. . .well, I'm out of ideas :)

Dec 01 15:07:17 <Lensman> Not nice. Maybe they're monitoring. Which I need to do, as I'm expecting company in a couple of hours and haven't gotten dressed yet.

Dec 01 15:07:25 * chief_strike_anywhere (~chief_strike_anywhere@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 15:07:31 <Hippy> Ha! It's one of Larry's publishers logging the chat for anything libellous

Dec 01 15:07:34 <chief_strike_anywhere> good day, eh?

Dec 01 15:07:39 <Lensman> Ho Chief!

Dec 01 15:07:45 <chief_strike_anywhere> hey Lens

Dec 01 15:07:47 <Hippy> Hail to the Chief

Dec 01 15:08:02 <chief_strike_anywhere> hey hosers.

Dec 01 15:08:49 * Hippy gets out his Bob and Doug McKenzie record as we appear to be going excessively Canadian today

Dec 01 15:08:52 <Lensman> Libelous? Okay BENFORD IS A TALENT-LESS HACK, AND HE SPITS ON THE SIDEWALK! There that ought to do it.

Dec 01 15:09:13 <Lensman> Eh?

Dec 01 15:09:29 <Hippy> Yep. Well, poor ol' Sean is going to get it now

Dec 01 15:09:40 <SeanS> heh

Dec 01 15:09:51 <chief_strike_anywhere> he hasn't been the same since Anna Nicole Smith died

Dec 01 15:09:59 <SeanS> oh god... got again

Dec 01 15:10:16 <Hippy> Bob and Doug McKenzie where these two hick Canadian brothers, as immortalised by Dave Thomas and Rick Moranis

Dec 01 15:11:27 * Dan pours Sean a cool goblet of wine and tells him to edit the chat log before Julie can read it.

Dec 01 15:11:40 <chief_strike_anywhere> i found a mouse in my beer, eh/

Dec 01 15:11:49 <Hippy> So who is looking forward to Inferno 2 which will be released about one million years from now?

Dec 01 15:11:54 <chief_strike_anywhere> so we want some free beer, hoser

Dec 01 15:12:22 <Hippy> That's them!

Dec 01 15:12:36 <Lensman> - /Purgatorio/ has been delayed?

Dec 01 15:12:36 <Hippy> What was the movie? 'Strange Brew'!

Dec 01 15:12:45 <Dan> I'm looking forward to Inferno II, and having to buy another copy of Inferno I just to see what the changes are.

Dec 01 15:13:10 <Hippy> No, but the gap between sending it to the publishers and it actually hitting the bookstands is so bloody long. . .

Dec 01 15:13:16 <Lensman> SCTV. William Shatner. "Leftenant". Back bacon. My list of Canadian cultural references is pretty short...

Dec 01 15:13:18 * senax (~senax@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 15:13:27 <Hippy> Same here, Dan

Dec 01 15:13:32 <Dan> But just to be difficult, I'll wait for them to come out in glorious paperback!

Dec 01 15:13:38 * chief_strike_anywhere (~chief_strike_anywhere@81.102.177.XX) has left #knownspace

Dec 01 15:13:40 <senax> Howdy.

Dec 01 15:13:51 <Lensman> Yes, it appears we Niven completists will have to buy the new edition of /Inferno/.

Dec 01 15:13:53 <Dan> Hiya senax.

Dec 01 15:13:57 <Hippy> G'day, Senax

Dec 01 15:14:05 <Lensman> Hi Senax.

Dec 01 15:14:05 * chief_strike_anywhere (~chief_strike_anywhere@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 15:14:11 <chief_strike_anywhere> whoops

Dec 01 15:14:20 <Hippy> My paperback from 1975 is falling to bits anyway

Dec 01 15:14:23 * Dan duct tapes Mark to the channel.

Dec 01 15:14:24 <SeanS> xihr is in san francisco based on an IP search

Dec 01 15:14:35 <Lensman> Hey, come again when you can stay awhile Chief!

Dec 01 15:14:45 <chief_strike_anywhere> heh. i'm here. just hit the wrong button

Dec 01 15:14:46 <Lensman> LOL

Dec 01 15:14:52 <chief_strike_anywhere> there is an 11 year old child hitting me in the head

Dec 01 15:14:57 <Hippy> It could be Rick Cook, then. Woo hoo!

Dec 01 15:15:12 <Lensman> Chief = Inferno?

Dec 01 15:16:08 <chief_strike_anywhere> yeah, it's me

Dec 01 15:16:32 <Lensman> Kids-- can't live with 'em, can't strangle 'em.

Dec 01 15:16:49 <Hippy> You can in India

Dec 01 15:16:58 <chief_strike_anywhere> soon they will be big enough to strangle me.

Dec 01 15:17:02 <Dan> But spanking is still legal in Britan, as I recall.

Dec 01 15:17:40 <chief_strike_anywhere> even playing asia's greatest hits isn't getting rid of them

Dec 01 15:17:49 <Lensman> Ghu... they just had a piece in the news about all the European countries which have outlawed spanking. *Sigh* Gives me a hankering to go back and re-read the /1633/ novels.

Dec 01 15:18:57 <senax> I ran across a discussion of the same issue on the radio yesterday. Is spanking a big thing in the news for some reason?

Dec 01 15:19:21 * Hippy just noticed that Mark's nick is long than ten letters. How did he do that?

Dec 01 15:19:41 <Dan> Dunno, never watch the news here. Unless it's on BBC America.

Dec 01 15:19:42 <Lensman> I think they said Massachusets (sp?) has a bill to outlaw it being considered.

Dec 01 15:20:13 <chief_strike_anywhere> it is illegal in scotland

Dec 01 15:20:15 <Lensman> For non- U.S. citizens, Mass. is one of our states of the union.

Dec 01 15:20:47 <SeanS> Hippy: it is a private server. i didnt set a maximum nick length

Dec 01 15:21:11 <senax> Stupid Massholes. :-)

Dec 01 15:21:21 <Lensman> *chuckle*

Dec 01 15:21:38 <Lensman> I consider myself a liberal on some issues... not that one!

Dec 01 15:21:49 <Dan> Gives "Banned in Boston" a whole new meaning, eh?

Dec 01 15:22:28 <Lensman> Actually, no. "Banned in Boston" has always had the meaning of "Censored by the overly sensitive".

Dec 01 15:23:47 <Lensman> I always liked Mark Twain's response to censorship. "I thank you, as the controversy you've generated will mean more people will buy my book..."

Dec 01 15:23:50 <Hippy> Sean: ah, I get it. I thought that was a general IRC convention. Good to know it's not

Dec 01 15:24:30 <Hippy> So that's where that comes from!

Dec 01 15:24:54 <Lensman> What means "IRC convention" ?

Dec 01 15:25:19 <Hippy> A general rule that applies to all Internet Relay Chat servers

Dec 01 15:25:31 <Dan> Internet Relay Chat rule-of-thumb.

Dec 01 15:25:35 <Hippy> At least, that's how I meant it. Not a con in fannish terms

Dec 01 15:25:55 <Lensman> Okay. I was trying to fit "IRC" with "Banned in Boston"... :)

Dec 01 15:26:10 <senax> Specified in RFC 1459.

Dec 01 15:26:11 <Hippy> Ah, no. Separate conversation with sean

Dec 01 15:26:17 <Dan> Different puzzle, Lens. Those pieces won't fit.

Dec 01 15:26:44 <Lensman> LOL! "Some people think there's only one way to put a jigsaw puzzle together." --Dennis the Menace

Dec 01 15:27:05 <Hippy> Although this is kind of a con. I shall play the part of the overseas visitor who nearly got killed looking the wrong way before crossing the street

Dec 01 15:27:51 <SeanS> if i joined an irc network, like chatnet or undernet, i would have to conform to their nick rules

Dec 01 15:27:55 <Lensman> Chat rooms are much like a party conversation at a con, yes.

Dec 01 15:28:25 <Hippy> Oh, good, Lens. Then I can also complain about the beer :)

Dec 01 15:28:56 <Dan> As I had one character say in my Nightwatch novel, "welcome to chat, where conversations are non-linear and usually unbounded by time..."

Dec 01 15:29:07 <senax> Speaking of cons, anyone planning on attending Worldcon next year?

Dec 01 15:29:10 <Hippy> "What is this tepid concoction? I'm off to the Berlin in 2012 room. They'll have beer!"

Dec 01 15:29:35 <Lensman> Well I'd offer you a virtual sampling of what a relative has in our fridge, but it's Budweiser... which I understand ranks somwhat lower than Moose piss (there's another Canadian reference) to those who actually like beer.

Dec 01 15:30:10 <Hippy> Yes, I'm not a huge fan of American beer. . .

Dec 01 15:30:18 <SeanS> hmm, all this talk of alcohol

Dec 01 15:30:32 <Hippy> Senax: I was planning to but I don't have enough frequent flyer points to make it

Dec 01 15:30:34 <Dan> I'm afraid the only Con I'll be attending is LibertyCon next year. I'm going to be on a panel about e-zins and internet publishing. So I'll get mixed in with the Pro writers, for once! LOL!

Dec 01 15:30:36 * SeanS wanders into the kitchen to concoct a bloody mary

Dec 01 15:31:34 <Lensman> Some of the local fen swear by some of the local "micro-brews". But it seems that the success of Bud and competitors is entirely a result of advertising, not quality.

Dec 01 15:31:41 * Larry (~Larry@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 15:31:42 * senax is still drinking coffee...time enough for beer during the Oklahoma/Missouri game later.

Dec 01 15:31:48 <Dan> Hello Larry.

Dec 01 15:31:53 <Hippy> Eep!

Dec 01 15:31:58 <Lensman> Hi Larry!

Dec 01 15:31:58 <senax> Hi Larry.

Dec 01 15:31:59 <chief_strike_anywhere> Hello Larry.

Dec 01 15:32:08 <Larry> Hello all.

Dec 01 15:32:10 <Lensman> How are the eyes, Larry?

Dec 01 15:32:19 <Hippy> Good afternoon, Larry

Dec 01 15:32:55 <Larry> Right eye is not cyborg. Improvement wasn't huge. We're waiting on the left.

Dec 01 15:33:18 <Hippy> Oh, a lens implant?

Dec 01 15:33:51 <NickE> back

Dec 01 15:33:53 <NickE> wow!

Dec 01 15:33:54 <Larry> Yes, a lens replacement to cure a cataract.

Dec 01 15:34:06 <NickE> Hi Larry, Frank, Dan, Mark

Dec 01 15:34:35 <Dan> Hiya Nick, pull up a chair and make yourself comfortable.

Dec 01 15:34:35 <Lensman> Larry, there's a question I've been dying to ask for months now. I once had the pleasure of chatting with you at a con... I think it was in 1980 or '81... and I asked why the Pak would build something so fragile as the Ringworld to house their breeders. You replied that breeding space was not the reason they built it. Does Niven know why the Pak built the Ringworld (assuming they did), and if so is he willing to tell us?

Dec 01 15:34:44 <Hippy> You haven't noticed any huge improvement? They're supposed to be near miraculous

Dec 01 15:35:52 <Dan> I'm betting that the answer to Lens' question will cost him 3 billion stars...

Dec 01 15:35:58 <Dan> :)

Dec 01 15:36:00 <NickE> Well naturally

Dec 01 15:36:05 <Larry> Hippy, my eyes have complications.

Dec 01 15:36:21 <Hippy> I'm sad to hear that

Dec 01 15:36:44 <Hippy> That's worse than Dr Pournelle's problems at the moment

Dec 01 15:36:57 <Lensman> I hope the complications aren't serious, Larry.

Dec 01 15:37:13 <NickE> well of course

Dec 01 15:37:15 <Larry> Lensman, I had a nebulous theory re the building of the Ringworld. At this point I'll stick with what's in Ringworld's Children.

Dec 01 15:37:35 <Lensman> Okay.

Dec 01 15:37:56 <NickE> Works for me :-)

Dec 01 15:38:25 <Dan> Larry, my wife just asked me to thank you for "Lucifer's Hammer", that's her favorite of your & Jerry's books.

Dec 01 15:38:25 <Lensman> My idea, shot Down In Flames. :)

Dec 01 15:38:28 <NickE> Aergerly anticipating starting on FoW shortly. Got it this week

Dec 01 15:39:13 <chief_strike_anywhere> nicke -> i haven't been able to afford it yet (sigh).

Dec 01 15:39:27 <chief_strike_anywhere> larry -> I hear tell you're done with Inferno II !

Dec 01 15:39:50 <NickE> I'll lend it to you when we get around to that drink!

Dec 01 15:40:06 <chief_strike_anywhere> Yeah. I won't bring the children this time! when are we doing that?

Dec 01 15:40:15 <Lensman> I made the mistake of buying it from the local Books-a-Million because it's close to home. I should have got it at Borders or Barnes & Noble, as they typically have discounts on best-selling titles.

Dec 01 15:41:12 <Hippy> We used to have Borders here but they closed down. Not making enough profit. God knows what they expected their margin to be

Dec 01 15:41:18 <NickE> When I finally get my arse in gear :-)

Dec 01 15:41:21 <Lensman> I can only hope Larry gets a percentage of the profit, not just a fixed royalty per copy.

Dec 01 15:41:34 <NickE> Busy with new job and Joss Whedon related stuff

Dec 01 15:41:38 * Hippy reflects on how good it is to see 'arse' again

Dec 01 15:41:40 <chief_strike_anywhere> i buy almost everything off the net now. there aren't any good bookstores in my community

Dec 01 15:41:41 <Lensman> Well, there's always!

Dec 01 15:41:48 <Larry> We're done with Inferno II--again. This time for sure. Barring proofs.

Dec 01 15:41:58 <chief_strike_anywhere> i don't think half these nothern scumbags can read.

Dec 01 15:42:02 <NickE> <fnarf> what *my* arse!

Dec 01 15:42:03 <chief_strike_anywhere> (did I say that? gasp!)

Dec 01 15:42:11 <NickE> First list moon!

Dec 01 15:42:25 <chief_strike_anywhere> eee by gum, it's grim up north

Dec 01 15:42:33 <Hippy> Just the spelling. It reminds me of when we spoke English

Dec 01 15:42:51 <Lensman> Larry, there was some interest on the LN-l list over what revisions have been made to /Inferno/ (I). Is this the final polish it never received, or just some added quotes from Dante, or what?

Dec 01 15:43:26 * chief_strike_anywhere agree's with Lensman

Dec 01 15:43:26 <NickE> Been looking fwd to Inferno II for a long time

Dec 01 15:43:34 <Lensman> Chief: That's "Did I say that OUT LOUD?"

Dec 01 15:44:04 <chief_strike_anywhere> lensman -> You see, there is an inside your head voice, and an outside your head voice

Dec 01 15:44:44 * Hippy is keen to respect Larry's privacy but anxious to know what these eye complications are

Dec 01 15:44:47 <chief_strike_anywhere> Right now I'm stuck on Reading Patrick O'brian Books. Master and Commander and all that stuff.

Dec 01 15:45:12 <chief_strike_anywhere> it's all my dad's fault. he insisted. and there are 20 of them

Dec 01 15:45:47 <Lensman> Chief: I hope you enjoy them more than I did. I love Alexander Kent's "Richard Bolitho" series, and Hornblower is pretty good altho unreservedly depressing. :(

Dec 01 15:45:54 <Hippy> 20? It must get down to 'Master and Commander: Cooking with Gas' or something

Dec 01 15:46:12 <Larry> Everythign we wanted to change in Inferno I went into plotting for Inferno II, barring one thing. A refernce to a character in I was taken out, because she's major in Inferno II.

Dec 01 15:46:27 <Lensman> "Master & Commander: The Ladies' Tea Party"

Dec 01 15:46:41 <Hippy> LOL, Lens

Dec 01 15:47:13 <Hippy> Now I must read Inferno I again.

Dec 01 15:47:14 <Larry> Eye complications are Fuchs' Dystrophy (a cornea problem) and a staph infection in the lids.

Dec 01 15:47:40 <chief_strike_anywhere> i think they are really good, that's the problem.

Dec 01 15:47:40 <Hippy> So will they need to graft the cornea?

Dec 01 15:47:46 <chief_strike_anywhere> i haven't seen the movie.

Dec 01 15:47:52 <Dan> Ouch! Larry, I hope that infection gets better rapidly.

Dec 01 15:48:17 <Lensman> I've been told the M&C series improves with the 3rd volume. I did *not* like the didactic tone of the first two, and the bizarre grammer was distracting, too. I've read actual stories written during the period, none used the "wrong" form of "to be" that I recall. Dunnon where O'Brien gets that!

Dec 01 15:48:48 <NickE> Well, good antibiotics will hopefully kill teh infecton

Dec 01 15:49:07 <Lensman> Larry: Oh! I'm so sorry to hear that. If we want to send a get-well card, should that go thru Baen Books or is there a faster way to get it to you?

Dec 01 15:49:09 <NickE> Eyes urgery seems to be improving all the time

Dec 01 15:49:11 <chief_strike_anywhere> lensman -> i found the first one hard going. i think it's because he doesn't really explain anything (like how the ship operates). you just kind of have to pick it up.

Dec 01 15:49:33 <chief_strike_anywhere> after a while, you don't notice, but you stop wondering what is going on and realize that you know.

Dec 01 15:50:11 * senax will be back in a while.

Dec 01 15:50:17 <NickE> later Frank

Dec 01 15:50:18 * senax is now known as senax_afk

Dec 01 15:50:39 <Larry> I too like the "Master & Commander" series.

Dec 01 15:50:58 <Lensman> Chief: Well I hate to contradict you, but one thing I really disliked was how he spent pages and pages on which sail is just where. There was a diagram at the front of the book, all that lecture was completely unnecessary. Plus I've read any number of Napoleonic era novels, no other author found it either necessary or desirable to tell me the name of every single sail on the bloody ship!

Dec 01 15:51:08 <NickE> I enjoyed the film

Dec 01 15:51:26 <Lensman> The film was *excellent*! Yes indeed.

Dec 01 15:51:33 <NickE> Was pleasantly surprised that a clumsily named film was actually very good

Dec 01 15:51:54 <NickE> not read teh books

Dec 01 15:52:02 <SeanS> i havent read them either

Dec 01 15:52:04 <chief_strike_anywhere> lensman -> heh.

Dec 01 15:52:25 <Hippy> That's not a bad critique, Nick. 'Clumsily named' does describe a lot of modern movies

Dec 01 15:52:33 <NickE> true

Dec 01 15:52:34 <chief_strike_anywhere> the books are good, trust me :-)

Dec 01 15:52:55 <chief_strike_anywhere> lensman -> I didn't know where any of the sails were, now I do.

Dec 01 15:52:56 <SeanS> well, i am a nautical kind of person, so on your recommendation ,mark, i will give them a shot

Dec 01 15:53:00 <Hippy> Now that I know that Larry likes them I shall put them on the pile to be read. . .after Inferno II

Dec 01 15:53:16 <Lensman> Well, if Larry likes them... I should give them another shot. I really do like that sub-genre. Slightly off-topic, I also highly recommend the "Sharpe" series by Bernard Cornwell. British army, not navy.

Dec 01 15:53:34 <NickE> Again, teh BBC series was excellent

Dec 01 15:53:38 * Hippy looks nervously at the huge, teetering pile of books to be read

Dec 01 15:54:01 <NickE> and jsut called "Sharpe"

Dec 01 15:54:05 <NickE> :-)

Dec 01 15:54:11 <NickE> Sean Bean

Dec 01 15:54:14 <Hippy> I didn't like 'Sharpe' as much as Hornblower. And when will the Royal Mariesn get a series?

Dec 01 15:54:19 <Lensman> Well I recently reduced by "to read" pile by the height of /Saturn's Race/. I really enjoyed that one!

Dec 01 15:54:25 <chief_strike_anywhere> My wife likes Sean Bean. She' s not allowed to watch sharpe

Dec 01 15:54:31 <chief_strike_anywhere> the drooling was getting on my nerves

Dec 01 15:54:34 <NickE> My pile is wobbling

Dec 01 15:54:41 <NickE> heh

Dec 01 15:54:45 <Lensman> Nick: I was introduced to Sharpe via the BBC series. I think the books are better.

Dec 01 15:55:05 <NickE> Well, if one comes my way, I'll give it a go

Dec 01 15:55:09 <Lensman> Er, that is, the TV show is very, very good but the books are even better!

Dec 01 15:55:18 <chief_strike_anywhere> i've never ead them. i'll have to add them to the list

Dec 01 15:55:48 <Hippy> 'Saturn's Race' That reminds me of the question of which universe 'Building Harlequin's Moon' is set in

Dec 01 15:55:57 <Larry> Inferno I and II are both due September next year, I think.

Dec 01 15:56:01 <NickE> my pile is mostly comics at teh moment, but FOW is the next real book :-)

Dec 01 15:56:10 <Hippy> And now we have Larry here to ask!

Dec 01 15:56:12 <NickE> cool

Dec 01 15:56:24 <Lensman> I liked the sly reference to Sean Bean's character in LOTR, where he cuts himself on a shard of Narsil and says, "That's sharp(e)!"

Dec 01 15:56:49 <NickE> I'm sure Brenda said it was not any established universe

Dec 01 15:56:52 <Lensman> Larry, will either or both Infernos come out in hardcover?

Dec 01 15:57:15 <NickE> How much reworking (if any) has Inferno 1 had then?

Dec 01 15:57:23 <Hippy> Nick: Oh, well. That's that answered

Dec 01 15:57:58 <Larry> "Building Harlequin's Moon" has its own universe.

Dec 01 15:58:06 <NickE> What he said :-)

Dec 01 15:58:37 <NickE> short bio break

Dec 01 15:58:48 <Larry> Infernos...hardcover...sorry, I don't know. It's a good guess, though.

Dec 01 15:58:49 <Hippy> Oh :( Here was I putting it at the far end of the 'Dragons of Heorot' universe. Ah, well

Dec 01 15:58:57 <Lensman> Well, Jerry's blog said he was looking up Dante quotes for the first 10 chapters of /Inferno/. Or at least, I *think* that's what he said... there was some argument on the list over what he meant. So, Larry, are you adding quotes from Dante to introduce chapters in /Inferno/ (I), or was Jerry talking about the sequel?

Dec 01 16:00:08 <Larry> Yes, Jerry is adding quotes from Dante to Inferno I. I don't see that as a major change. They're in II too.

Dec 01 16:00:21 <Lensman> Okay, thanks Larry.

Dec 01 16:01:32 <NickE> Well, I'll get it anyway, my paperback is getting dogeared

Dec 01 16:01:47 <Lensman> Larry, did you dump the /Purgatorio/ title?

Dec 01 16:02:22 <Larry> Lensman, thanks for the Mother's Song on larryniven-l.

Dec 01 16:02:33 <Lensman> :) My pleasure.

Dec 01 16:02:42 <NickE> may have to vanish at short notice for this episode commentary soon

Dec 01 16:03:06 <Lensman> Altho I have to wonder, do kids of the current generation hear exactly the same things from *their* parents?

Dec 01 16:03:16 <SeanS> yes

Dec 01 16:03:21 <NickE> Larry, any progress on Bowl of Heaven?

Dec 01 16:03:23 <SeanS> my girlfriend has a 9 year old

Dec 01 16:03:31 <Larry> The "Purgatorio" title was an argument I lost. Jerry thinks there's space for a "Purgatorio" too. I think he's wrong.

Dec 01 16:03:38 <Lensman> Darn, I really need to get off and take a shower. I hate leaving in the middle of a wonderful chat!

Dec 01 16:03:44 <NickE> me too!

Dec 01 16:04:06 <Dan> The chat logs are running.

Dec 01 16:04:07 <Hippy> Well, our deathless comments will be logged :)

Dec 01 16:04:11 <NickE> heh

Dec 01 16:04:24 <Larry> No progress on "The Bowl of Heaven". Sorry.

Dec 01 16:04:27 <Dan> Sean and I both log every word said in here.

Dec 01 16:04:28 <NickE> aww

Dec 01 16:04:43 <Lensman> LOL! Well as long as they're archived at the site, they *are* deathless!

Dec 01 16:05:05 <SeanS> i log the chatroom but not any private chats or private messages

Dec 01 16:05:06 <chief_strike_anywhere> heh. i just updated all of them as well.

Dec 01 16:05:07 <NickE> keen to see that develop if it can as it's been brewinga a while...tho not as long as Inferno II

Dec 01 16:05:07 <Lensman> I forget, what's /Bowl of Heaven/ about? Is it in an established universe?

Dec 01 16:05:21 <Hippy> Well, I'm logging here, too, so even in the event of global catastrophe they should survive

Dec 01 16:05:42 <SeanS> I keep hoping for another novel set in the smoke ring. I think that is a fascinating enviroment

Dec 01 16:05:59 <chief_strike_anywhere> seans -> yes yes yes.

Dec 01 16:06:01 <Dan> Same here, private chats aren't logged. Anything I nee from those get copy/pasted into a word processor file.

Dec 01 16:06:05 <Lensman> Larry keeps saying /The Ghost Ships/ is dead. I keep hoping for CPR...

Dec 01 16:06:57 <Hippy> And a Gil the ARM novel. What about that?

Dec 01 16:07:09 <chief_strike_anywhere> the smoke ring is my favourite big environment

Dec 01 16:07:49 <Larry> I believe I'm through with the Smoke Ring. It did everything I wanted done. Fess up, if you want more stories you can daydream them, can't you? I gave you all the tools.

Dec 01 16:07:58 <SeanS> very true

Dec 01 16:08:12 <NickE> Love the playgrounds

Dec 01 16:08:15 <Larry> As for Gil the ARM, those are hard to write. I've tried a few more and got stuck.

Dec 01 16:08:16 <Hippy> There was a big thread on the list about it. The other Trojan point to the Admiralty's might have a thriving civilisation in it

Dec 01 16:08:27 * chief_strike_anywhere doesn't need encouragment to daydream.

Dec 01 16:08:39 <NickE> Dreamer fithp

Dec 01 16:08:59 <Lensman> Daydreaming is easy, yah. Writing a story worth selling... now that's hard.

Dec 01 16:09:13 <Dan> Tell me about it!

Dec 01 16:09:35 <Hippy> When you hear that Larry gets stuck it puts everything into perspective

Dec 01 16:09:41 <Lensman> What's /Bowl of Heaven/ about, eh? Anybody? ...Bueller?

Dec 01 16:09:51 <Dan> I *still* haven't sold anything. But I can't quit writing.

Dec 01 16:09:54 <NickE> Wok World that was

Dec 01 16:10:03 <NickE> Halfa Dyson Sphere

Dec 01 16:10:27 <Hippy> Half a Dyson Shell

Dec 01 16:10:32 <Lensman> I've only written one story I think was worth selling, and it was set in Zelazny's /Amber/ series, so can't be sold. :(

Dec 01 16:10:35 <Larry> "Bowl of Heaven": big structure and wild history dreamed up by Greg Benford.

Dec 01 16:11:01 <NickE> Neat

Dec 01 16:11:04 <Lensman> I take it that BoH would be a stand-alone, then?

Dec 01 16:11:08 <Hippy> How darkly geometric of him

Dec 01 16:11:13 <NickE> sounds fun

Dec 01 16:11:19 <Lensman> LOL Hippy

Dec 01 16:11:22 <NickE> heh

Dec 01 16:12:25 <Larry> Greg came to me. We started it together. We're part finished, and stalled.

Dec 01 16:12:27 <Lensman> Oh, I remember references to "Wok World". I didn't realize that was from a Niven work-in-progress.

Dec 01 16:14:01 <Hippy> If you spin the wok for centrifugal g

Dec 01 16:14:16 <Hippy> 'gravity' you would get some interesting gravitational effects

Dec 01 16:14:22 <Dan> Everything would fly out the open end, wouldn't it?

Dec 01 16:15:02 <Lensman> James White did something similar in IIRC /Federation/, a Dyson shell spun for gravity, terraced, with large holes at the poles.

Dec 01 16:15:09 <Hippy> I was thinking that if you spin it along a vertical axis, the upper edges of the wok spin faster, but as you go down the curve of the wok the gravity gets lighter

Dec 01 16:15:33 <NickE> makes for interesting weather I'll bet

Dec 01 16:15:42 <Hippy> The sun is kind of in the middle of the wok, raised about 90 million miles above the bottom of the wok

Dec 01 16:15:45 <NickE> trust a Brit to bring that up

Dec 01 16:15:46 <Lensman> Tanj I really have to go. It's great chatting with y'all! Larry, be well.

Dec 01 16:15:54 * Lensman is now known as Lensman_free

Dec 01 16:15:56 <NickE> TTFN Lens

Dec 01 16:16:12 <Hippy> See ya, Lens

Dec 01 16:16:17 <NickE> gonna be getting a skype call again shortly

Dec 01 16:16:44 <Dan> I still think that the surfac tension effect would cause everything to gradually rise up to the open end and fly out if it was spinning.

Dec 01 16:16:56 <Hippy> Now, if you spin the wok along the horizontal axis you would get gravity in the 'middle' of the wok and the sun wouldn't be fixed in the sky

Dec 01 16:17:14 <chief_strike_anywhere> i can't find proper woks anymore

Dec 01 16:17:21 <Hippy> Yes, but that might take millions of years

Dec 01 16:18:25 <Hippy> Of course, you could spin the wok on both axes but that's hard to visualise

Dec 01 16:18:53 <NickE> Hard to keep your lunch down too I would imagine :-)

Dec 01 16:19:00 <Dan> I've often wondered how small you could make a Dyson sphere and still have it be useful?

Dec 01 16:19:14 <NickE> DimpleWorlD!

Dec 01 16:19:22 <Hippy> Depends where you evolved and what your sun is like

Dec 01 16:19:43 <Larry> Spinning it on both axes would shred the beast. Yes, guys, the air would have to be confined: cells everywhere. It's not a Ringworld.

Dec 01 16:19:44 <NickE> round a neutron star could be interesting

Dec 01 16:20:01 <Hippy> Pick a really cold sun or a brown dwarf. You could do a smalll one there

Dec 01 16:20:31 <Hippy> Hmm. Bit of a gravity gradient - see, this is where we need Andy Love to work it all out

Dec 01 16:20:32 <NickE> You'd have to have a pretty exotic near cheela like biology of course, maybe

Dec 01 16:20:49 <NickE> Oh, yeah, that would complicate things

Dec 01 16:21:34 <Hippy> Let's take THE neutron star of myth and legend. How close did Beowulf Shaeffer get? I know that's been worked out

Dec 01 16:21:57 <Dan> But do you actually *need* a star in the center? I'm talking about small spheres, maybe half a million miles in diameter.

Dec 01 16:22:01 <NickE> That was on the list a while back...maybe quiite a while

Dec 01 16:22:39 <Hippy> What would be the point without a star at the centre? The purpose of the shell is to use all the available power from the star

Dec 01 16:22:53 <SeanS> i cant remember... was beowulf's neutron star and Phistpok's (i never can remember how to spell it) the same neutron star

Dec 01 16:22:55 <NickE> But, the point usually is to intercept as much of the sars output as possible. Anythging else is just a bloody big spaceship

Dec 01 16:23:04 <NickE> stars

Dec 01 16:23:07 <NickE> '

Dec 01 16:23:12 <Hippy> Without s star you could make a dyson shell the size of a tennis ball and give it to the microscopic humans in James Blish's 'Sunken Universe'

Dec 01 16:23:19 <NickE> heh

Dec 01 16:23:20 <Dan> Dunno what the point would be. Di I need a point to daydream up gadgets and gizmos?

Dec 01 16:23:26 <NickE> No :-)

Dec 01 16:23:30 <Hippy> Sean: yes, they were

Dec 01 16:23:32 <NickE> Just hkeep going

Dec 01 16:23:36 <SeanS> k

Dec 01 16:24:31 <Hippy> So the smallest practical Dyson shell would be about the size of a basketball with a light bulb inside it :)

Dec 01 16:24:50 <SeanS> i dont know how 'practical' that would be

Dec 01 16:24:59 <Hippy> Blish's humans could live on 200 feet of Christmas ribbon with a candle at the centre of it :)

Dec 01 16:25:20 <Dan> I keep seeing an inside-out planet that someone built as a ship. Dunno what it's for or why, but the visuals of the inside look great in my mind's eye.

Dec 01 16:25:44 <Hippy> Well, we might not be able to understand their reasons

Dec 01 16:26:15 <Hippy> It would make a perfect generation ship, though

Dec 01 16:26:35 <Hippy> 'The Ringworld properly belongs in a slower than light universe'

Dec 01 16:26:46 * Fred (~Fred@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 16:26:50 <Hippy> Oh, that reminds me of a favour I wanted to ask you, Larry

Dec 01 16:26:55 <Hippy> Howdy, Fred

Dec 01 16:27:04 <Dan> Oh well, I've always loved Larry's "Bigger than Worlds" essay.

Dec 01 16:27:08 <Fred>

Dec 01 16:27:13 <NickE> Hi Fred

Dec 01 16:27:19 <Fred> greetings all

Dec 01 16:27:40 <Larry> Yes, Hippy. Given FTL, you don't need to squeeze everything there is out of your own sole solar system.

Dec 01 16:27:44 <Hippy> I have the 'An Hour With Larry Niven' tape from 1979. Lensman advsed that I ask your permission to make an MP3 of it that could go on

Dec 01 16:27:50 <Fred> I upgraded Firefox this morning and now it won't do the chat any more :(

Dec 01 16:28:20 <Dan> Fred, grab a copy of mIRC.

Dec 01 16:28:21 <Hippy> Of course, the Pak didn't have FTL

Dec 01 16:28:32 <NickE> That would be good

Dec 01 16:28:36 <Fred> that's a nightmare. Safari worked fine though.

Dec 01 16:29:01 <Larry> Hippy: Sure, go ahead with that. But it 's all old news.

Dec 01 16:29:08 <Hippy> But they do as of 'Ringworld's Children'. Hmm

Dec 01 16:29:26 <NickE> OK in conference coall gotta run for a little

Dec 01 16:29:34 <Hippy> Thank you! Lensman will be pleased. Yes, but some of your points are worth remembering.

Dec 01 16:29:45 <Fred> that URL is a you tube video of MAN OF STEEL, WOMAN OF KLEENEX

Dec 01 16:29:59 <chief_strike_anywhere> hippy -> when you've done it, email it to me and i'll put it up!

Dec 01 16:30:03 <Hippy> For example, your excellent prediction that Star Wars would make a lot of future SF very visual

Dec 01 16:30:12 <chief_strike_anywhere> alcohol run. brb

Dec 01 16:30:44 <Hippy> No worries, Mark. It will take finding a cassette player and hoping the tape is still in good nick

Dec 01 16:30:49 <Fred> I never heard anybody pronounce it "Pet-tro-dack-tell" before :)

Dec 01 16:31:03 <SeanS> fred: to .11?

Dec 01 16:31:12 <Fred> ?

Dec 01 16:31:17 <SeanS> firefoxx update

Dec 01 16:31:27 <Fred> oh. no idea.

Dec 01 16:31:31 <Fred> lemme look

Dec 01 16:31:43 <SeanS> i noticed it wanted me to put .11 on the windows pc this morning

Dec 01 16:31:46 * senax_afk is now known as senax

Dec 01 16:31:59 <Fred>

Dec 01 16:32:01 <Fred> osx

Dec 01 16:32:25 <SeanS> i'll email euan and have him check it out

Dec 01 16:32:27 <Larry> Lunchtime. I'm out. Fare you well.

Dec 01 16:32:39 <SeanS> thanks for stopping in, Larry

Dec 01 16:32:42 <Dan> Bye, Larry!

Dec 01 16:32:42 <Fred> I swear it forced an update on me just a couple days ago

Dec 01 16:32:47 <Fred> Bye, Larry!

Dec 01 16:33:00 <Hippy> 'Bye, Larry

Dec 01 16:33:00 <SeanS> let me check it here and see if if is just osx

Dec 01 16:33:14 * Larry has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Dec 01 16:33:25 <Fred> it never finishes. black screen with URL, says the applet is loaded

Dec 01 16:34:14 * SeanTest (~SeanTest@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 16:34:26 <SeanTest> hmm

Dec 01 16:34:28 * Dan is still using the last Mozilla Suite for his default browser/e-mail...

Dec 01 16:34:43 <SeanTest> works here under windows firefox. but i just installed java today on this box

Dec 01 16:34:46 * EML (~EML@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 16:35:01 <EML> Anyone in today?

Dec 01 16:35:01 <Dan> Ed. you just missed Larry by seconds.

Dec 01 16:35:06 * SeanTest has quit ()

Dec 01 16:35:07 <Fred> I've got a black screen with the url

Dec 01 16:35:10 <Fred>

Dec 01 16:35:22 <Fred> and "applet applet loaded" across the bottom

Dec 01 16:35:37 <EML> Huh. What did Larry have to say?

Dec 01 16:35:54 <SeanS> fred, i would update java and see if that is it.

Dec 01 16:36:11 <Dan> He answered a few questions about works in progress and works stalled out, unfinished.

Dec 01 16:36:11 <Fred> works fine in safari

Dec 01 16:36:22 <SeanS> like i said, i installed the java plug in this morning and its splash screen is different than what i am used to seeing

Dec 01 16:36:34 <Fred> I didn't get the java splash at all

Dec 01 16:36:36 <Fred> in FF

Dec 01 16:36:38 <SeanS> hi ed

Dec 01 16:37:01 <EML> Any discussion of FLEET or JUGGLER?

Dec 01 16:37:13 <SeanS> only that some of us havent had a chance to read it yet

Dec 01 16:37:15 <EML> hi back atcha, Sean

Dec 01 16:37:17 <Fred> I'm only halfway through fleet

Dec 01 16:37:30 <Dan> I can't help, drat it! I've been using mIRC for all chat since 1995.

Dec 01 16:37:39 <Fred> I have a question that I believe I can ask without spoilers

Dec 01 16:37:48 <Fred> okay if I try?

Dec 01 16:37:52 <SeanS> fire away

Dec 01 16:38:08 <Hippy> Howdy, Ed

Dec 01 16:38:09 <Dan> No Ed, he didn't mention Fleet or Juggler.

Dec 01 16:38:30 <Fred> It's stated that the underlying tech for Earth's transfer booth network was originally licensed from General Products

Dec 01 16:38:33 <EML> askign is the easy part. answering withour spoilers may be a challenge.

Dec 01 16:38:48 <Fred> I thought transfer booths predated contact with Puppeteers

Dec 01 16:38:59 <SeanS> i thought so too... by the pelton family

Dec 01 16:38:59 <Dan> Most of the questions were either about Inferno I & II or stuff that never got finished.

Dec 01 16:39:14 <Fred> but I'm somewhat muddled with the Jerryberry stories and such that aren't really Known Space

Dec 01 16:39:27 <EML> I'm looking forward myself to Inferno II.

Dec 01 16:39:54 <NickE> hi Ed

Dec 01 16:40:19 <Hippy> I thought transfer booths predated the PP's but now that I think of it I can't say that for certain

Dec 01 16:40:22 <Dan> Something Jerry Pournelle said promped questions about how much updating Inferno I got for the new re-issue.

Dec 01 16:40:23 <Fred> Yeah, you're right, Elephants great great great etc invented the transfer booth, didn't they

Dec 01 16:40:25 <NickE> sorry, in conference call now

Dec 01 16:40:48 <Hippy> Yes, but it doesn't say when she did it, Fred

Dec 01 16:40:53 <Fred> ack

Dec 01 16:41:04 <Fred> the titles for this say "Man of Steal"

Dec 01 16:41:09 <Fred> over a picture of Larry

Dec 01 16:41:10 <Fred> :\

Dec 01 16:41:31 <Hippy> I'd always assumed they'd been around for about a century before Beowulf Shaeffer, but it doesn't actually say that

Dec 01 16:42:00 <EML> But is Pelton's g'g'g'grandma an inventor, or an entrepeneur? FLATLANDER never says.

Dec 01 16:42:26 <EML> It doesn't violate canon if she *acquires* the technology.

Dec 01 16:42:32 <Fred> sure

Dec 01 16:42:44 <SeanS> thats how i remember it, fred. beowulf was introduced to elephant who gave his name as gregory pelton. beowulf freaked at the amount of money he must have do to the invention of the transfer booth by an ancestor

Dec 01 16:42:46 <Fred> no idea if it's actually a contradiction

Dec 01 16:43:34 <Fred> seems we didn't do much for ourselves if we bought FTL and transfer booths :\

Dec 01 16:45:00 <EML> there's no evidence of underlying human science for teleporation, and no record of the human system improving. both facts argue for purchased technology.

Dec 01 16:45:43 <Hippy> You have a point there, Ed. Booths in 2640 but no stepping disks two hundred years later. Well argued

Dec 01 16:45:55 <EML> BTW, here's also more about Elephant in JUGGLER.

Dec 01 16:46:10 <Hippy> Everything is in Juggler!

Dec 01 16:46:12 <Fred> Yeah. I remember the stuff in Flash Crowd about how we developed it, bu that's not known space, right?

Dec 01 16:46:27 <Hippy> Correct, Fred

Dec 01 16:46:45 <Fred> oh, hey, EML. didn't recognize you there. :)

Dec 01 16:47:03 <Fred> my pretty hardback got rained on yesterday :(

Dec 01 16:47:10 <EML> Well, mentioning JUGGLER is a giveaway, isn't it?

Dec 01 16:47:14 * Hippy predicts the world's smallest lottery dividend as the winning numbers are in Juggler and everyone will select those numbers once the book comes out

Dec 01 16:47:27 <Dan> Grrrr! Larry stories have generated more alternate timelines than Dr Who and H. Beam Piper combined!

Dec 01 16:47:32 <EML> ROTFL

Dec 01 16:47:39 <SeanS> cant find my copy so i dont know if it says 'invent' or 'license'.

Dec 01 16:47:47 <Fred> but far less than the DC hyperverse

Dec 01 16:48:06 <Fred> I'll look it up. That's flatlander, isn't it?

Dec 01 16:48:10 <SeanS> yes

Dec 01 16:48:12 * Hippy afk briefly for another cup of tea

Dec 01 16:48:27 <SeanS> with the antimatter planet speedball or some such

Dec 01 16:48:29 <Dan> We yes, DC caused the colapse of their multiverse from the sheer weight of the alternate worlds.

Dec 01 16:49:02 <Fred> 201cO-o-oh.201d Suddenly all came clear. Gregory Pelton is known among the stars. It is rumored that he owns the thirty-light-year-wide rough sphere called human space, that he earns his income by renting it out. It is rumored that General Products2014the all-embracing puppeteer company, now defunct for lack of puppeteers2014is a front for Gregory Pelton. It's a fact that his great-to-the-eighth grandmother invented the transfer booth and that he is rich, r

Dec 01 16:49:22 <EML> FLATLANDER says "invent", but that's Bey's interior monologue. Not an assertion by anyone in the know.

Dec 01 16:49:31 <Fred> sure

Dec 01 16:50:09 <EML> Doesn't anyone wonder why someone wo rich is on a passenger liner?

Dec 01 16:50:22 <Fred> to be incognito

Dec 01 16:50:38 <Dan> Slumming for the fun of it, I thought when I read it the first time.

Dec 01 16:50:42 <Fred> he's clearly gregarious

Dec 01 16:50:50 <Fred> much more so than I would be with his money

Dec 01 16:50:54 <EML> But he's not incognito. He identifies himself. And surely a private yacht affords better privaccy.

Dec 01 16:51:07 <Fred> He doesn't identify himself

Dec 01 16:51:13 * Fred5 (~Fred@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 16:51:30 <Fred> or does he? I'll check

Dec 01 16:51:41 <Dan> How many interesting people can a rich man surrounded by the usual crowd of yes-men get to meet. He must have been bored with that life.

Dec 01 16:51:56 <senax> Fred, what's that character before each of the numbers in your statement above?

Dec 01 16:52:01 <Fred> He just uses the name 'elephant' and gives Bey a number

Dec 01 16:52:02 <SeanS> i dont think he identifies himself till bey shows up in his apartment

Dec 01 16:52:22 <Fred> yep. Sharrol tells Bey who Elephant really is

Dec 01 16:52:26 <SeanS> and sharrol the pickpocket is there and identifies him... but that is digging deep into memory

Dec 01 16:52:33 <Dan> One of the girls is actually the character that states his real name.

Dec 01 16:52:42 <Fred> 201cSure,201d said Sharrol. 201cHis real name is Gregory Pelton.201d

Dec 01 16:53:00 <Fred> senax, what character in what statement?

Dec 01 16:53:16 <Fred> the long quote begins with quotation marks

Dec 01 16:53:24 <SeanS> wow.. memory working better than usual

Dec 01 16:53:28 <Fred> heh

Dec 01 16:53:38 <senax> You had four of them in your last statemant about Sharrol. Might be my IRC client.

Dec 01 16:53:59 <Dan> Ctrl201c is open quotes, Ctrl201d is close quotes.

Dec 01 16:54:02 <Fred> yeah, all quotation marks

Dec 01 16:54:11 <senax> I think they're some Unicode thing that this client doesn't understand, so it's showing the code numbers

Dec 01 16:54:15 <Hippy> I'm getting hex codes for the characters here

Dec 01 16:54:17 <SeanS> high ascii

Dec 01 16:54:26 <EML> My larger point (/tease) is that this story -- all the Beowulf stories -- leaves much to be interpreted about who does what, and why, and how they happened to show up. Lots of coincidences ... unless there is an underlying story yet to be revealed ...

Dec 01 16:54:32 <senax> Well, time to stop using this client then!

Dec 01 16:54:34 <Fred> bwahahahaha

Dec 01 16:54:38 <Hippy> Yes, that's what I'm getting, senax

Dec 01 16:55:03 <Dan> Fortunately, I keep my codes numbered for just such an emergency. LOL!

Dec 01 16:55:05 <EML> Moi? Bwhahah? Nah!

Dec 01 16:55:11 <Fred> senax, hippy, try pasting quote marks yourself and see what happens?

Dec 01 16:55:28 <Hippy> Stand by

Dec 01 16:55:30 <SeanS> true, Ed. I really need to go on and get a copy of fleet. kinda close to christmas to buy stuff for myself tho

Dec 01 16:55:58 <senax> This "IRCclient" is actually Gaim. I don't think IRC was a priority for the authors.

Dec 01 16:56:12 <Hippy> "I just like the elegance of updating word counts in the master document, numbering the fields for chapter headings properly, doing exotic things with the page numbering, indeed doing anything other than writing the actual text."

Dec 01 16:56:14 <senax> The quotes look OK in my me.

Dec 01 16:56:18 <Hippy> No codes there

Dec 01 16:56:22 <Fred> and work here

Dec 01 16:56:31 <Fred> now I will copy paste your statement back to you

Dec 01 16:56:34 <EML> Sean: I hear you. I don't do much shopping for myself this time of year, either.

Dec 01 16:56:35 <SeanS> tho i doubt my parents truly understand why i would want gigabit ethernet cards instead of a nice sweater

Dec 01 16:57:05 <Dan> I think the codes only show up depending on what the format is for th copied/pasted document.

Dec 01 16:57:08 <Fred> [14:54] <Hippy> "I just like the elegance of updating word counts in the master document, numbering the fields for chapter headings properly, doing exotic things with the page numbering, indeed doing anything other than writing the actual text."

Dec 01 16:57:56 <Hippy> Yes, I think Dan's right. The codes are because Fred is copying and pasting those 'special' quotes that are different for opening and closing quotes

Dec 01 16:58:15 <EML> So, back to Larry's stopover ... did he forecast an availability for Inferno II?

Dec 01 16:58:15 <Hippy> Mysterious, but not mysterious enough to be the work of the Puppeteers

Dec 01 16:58:22 <SeanS> next september

Dec 01 16:58:33 <Lensman_free> Re continuity & transfer booth tech: see

Dec 01 16:58:36 <Fred> Isn't that a line from the MST3K song? "Because Fred used thos 'special' marks, to quote his robot FRiEnDs"

Dec 01 16:58:44 <Hippy> He wasn't sure about it being in hardcover but he said that would be the way to bet

Dec 01 16:58:47 <SeanS> LOL, Fred

Dec 01 16:58:47 <Dan> Yeah, the file Ed's copying from is in some format that IRC can't fully translate.

Dec 01 16:59:10 <EML> Huh? I'm not copying anything.

Dec 01 16:59:20 <Fred> I think he meant Fred

Dec 01 16:59:23 <senax> Gotta run...see you guys later.

Dec 01 16:59:24 <Fred> and dropped the FR

Dec 01 16:59:28 * senax (~senax@24.252.63.XXX) has left #knownspace

Dec 01 16:59:30 <Dan> You *typed* those quotes?

Dec 01 16:59:31 <Hippy> 'Bye, Senax

Dec 01 16:59:33 <Lensman_free> Ringworld says the transfer booths had been around for IIRC 300 years. Per FOW that's after first contact w/ Puppeteers.

Dec 01 17:00:17 <SeanS> it just depends on what your client has been programmed to interpret. the server just bounces the 1's and 0's back to everybody

Dec 01 17:00:26 <Hippy> So is there anything left that humans actually invented?

Dec 01 17:00:42 <Fred> In three-and-a-half centuries the transfer booths had done this to the infinite variety of Earth.

Dec 01 17:00:55 <Dan> Sex, and chocolate.

Dec 01 17:01:12 <EML> I know we considered the timing of transfer booths relative to FLEET and RINGWORLD ... it's just been to long to reconstruct sources on the fly.

Dec 01 17:01:16 <Lensman_free> Diana identified "Elephant" as Pelton, not Sharrol.

Dec 01 17:01:30 <Fred> nope

Dec 01 17:01:43 <Fred> I'm copy/pasting the quote :)

Dec 01 17:02:41 <Fred> 201cSure,201d said Sharrol. 201cHis real name is Gregory Pelton.201d

Dec 01 17:03:04 <Hippy> Dan: not bad. I was thinking that humans were launching themselves across the void armed with their one great invention, the pre-moistened towellette

Dec 01 17:03:08 <Fred> please forgive the quotation marks where applicable

Dec 01 17:03:10 <Lensman_free> Hippy: Basically, FOW says Humans didn't invent anything after the Man-Kzin Wars. Nothing important, anyway. Those nasty ARMs, suppressing technology!

Dec 01 17:03:34 <Hippy> Think of the Kzinti: fur all gummed up with fried sthondat and coleslaw, but no way to clean themselves up

Dec 01 17:03:40 <SeanS> that just means it was invented and suppressed... but with a record of it in the arm databanks

Dec 01 17:04:07 <EML> I found the spot in FLEET, chapter 10. Puppeteers first contacted humans 150 years before FLEET, making it 350 years before Ringworld.

Dec 01 17:04:30 <Fred> hah! making it concurrent with the 'invention' of the transfer booth

Dec 01 17:04:33 <Fred> well done sir

Dec 01 17:04:36 <Hippy> Sot that's 2490

Dec 01 17:04:45 <Lensman_free> Oops! You're right, it WAS Sharrol who told Bey that "Elephant" was Gregory Pelton.

Dec 01 17:05:20 <Hippy> Hmm. You could have a good guess at the age of Pelton's great to the eighth grandmother from that data

Dec 01 17:05:43 <Fred> so this is off by 100 years

Dec 01 17:05:57 <Fred> they have transfer booths in 2400, and Pierson in 2500

Dec 01 17:06:00 <Lensman_free> Age of Pelton's grandma is discussed in the link I gave.

Dec 01 17:06:23 <Lensman_free> She was *not* young when she developed the booth!

Dec 01 17:06:28 <Fred> their transfer booth dating looks to be from various MKW sources

Dec 01 17:06:31 <Hippy> As I knew it would be, Lens

Dec 01 17:07:09 <EML> With boosterspice, you don't know how old Grandma was when she introduced transfer booths.

Dec 01 17:07:16 <Lensman_free> Where does it say they had transfer booths in 2400?

Dec 01 17:07:42 <Fred> about 2400*

Dec 01 17:07:47 <Fred>

Dec 01 17:07:58 <Hippy> You can take a stab at it, though, Ed. She'd be eight generations - hang on, ten generations older than Pelton

Dec 01 17:08:09 <Lensman_free> Rw says 300 yrs before, making it 2550.

Dec 01 17:08:21 <Fred> Ringworld says 350

Dec 01 17:08:28 <Fred> I just quoted it lensy :)

Dec 01 17:08:34 <Fred> three and a half centuries

Dec 01 17:09:24 <EML> I just checked myself. RINGWORLD says 350. I assume that, in case of contradictions, the bestselling bookk wins.

Dec 01 17:09:25 <Lensman_free> references a non-Niven MKW story. Sorry, that doesn't count.

Dec 01 17:09:42 <Fred> agreed

Dec 01 17:09:43 <Lensman_free> Sorry, Fred!

Dec 01 17:09:52 <Fred> I said as much!

Dec 01 17:09:56 <Fred> or inferred it anyway

Dec 01 17:10:04 <Hippy> Well, there's that doctine in Islam that where there is a contradiction, the later item is the correct one

Dec 01 17:10:15 <Lensman_free> Fred, I'm trying to skim here, sorry if I'm not catching everything.

Dec 01 17:10:42 <Fred> hey, the chronology has incorporated FoW

Dec 01 17:11:01 <Hippy> That was quick

Dec 01 17:11:02 <Lensman_free> Larry said what's said in later stories is to be preferred to earlier. But he didn't mean stories he didn't write!

Dec 01 17:11:15 <Fred> I reject that

Dec 01 17:11:24 <Fred> Ringworld trumps all sequels

Dec 01 17:11:31 <Fred> sorry, larry

Dec 01 17:11:41 <Hippy> In the case of Ringworld's Children I would have to agree

Dec 01 17:11:53 <Fred> that's what I was thinking about, right there

Dec 01 17:11:58 <Hippy> I'll take the other two as being doctrine, though

Dec 01 17:12:17 <Fred> I don't think there's anything incontrivertible in them though

Dec 01 17:12:32 <Fred> the distance and number of shadow squares, but we can take those as typos

Dec 01 17:12:33 <SeanS> my dog decided that it was time for me to throw the log for him

Dec 01 17:12:56 <Fred> the way a #4 hull is sometimes referred to as 'a mile across' or 'a mile around'

Dec 01 17:12:58 <Lensman_free> Huh! That's odd, when I e-mailed Carlson to ask if he had notes for his dates he told me he hadn't updated it in a long time. Maybe I nudged him?

Dec 01 17:13:10 <Fred> he's got the Long Pass in there

Dec 01 17:13:11 <Hippy> If only he could type, Sean. He could come on here and not bother you

Dec 01 17:13:29 <Fred> I didn't look further once I saw that, since I haven't finished FoW

Dec 01 17:14:17 <EML> Huh. I hadn't noticed that update either.

Dec 01 17:14:20 <SeanS> i havent taught him to fetch me a beer yet so touch typing is a little further down the road

Dec 01 17:14:46 <Lensman_free> Anyway... I agree with Ed, the dates for transfer motor tech do fit if we assume the tech was licensed from Puppeteers.

Dec 01 17:14:52 <Fred> I was searching for the phrase 'puppeteer' and it landed on the long pass ref

Dec 01 17:15:20 <Fred> and, yes, GP contact and the invention of the transfer booth seem to be simultaneous

Dec 01 17:15:22 * Lensman_free is now known as Lensman

Dec 01 17:15:38 <Fred> grammy pelton must have been rich to start with though :)

Dec 01 17:15:58 <Hippy> Now, what did we use to pay the Puppeteers? What value would cash have to them?

Dec 01 17:16:14 <Dan> She inherited that fourtune from the Pre-Moistened-Towelette.

Dec 01 17:16:20 <Dan> :)

Dec 01 17:16:22 <Fred> we gave them campy reruns of Time for Beany

Dec 01 17:16:24 <SeanS> couple of super tankers worth of warm carrot juce

Dec 01 17:16:27 <Hippy> Well, she had around 200 years to acquire the wealth

Dec 01 17:16:27 <EML> Hippy ... can't answer that w/o a spoiler

Dec 01 17:16:31 <Fred> they enjoyed watching their ancestors

Dec 01 17:16:38 <Lensman> If you think it thru... Elephant cannot be the oldest living Pelton. Maybe the elders have retired and left him the reins of the corporation, tho.

Dec 01 17:17:17 <Hippy> I'm impressed that you gave it some thought at all, Ed. I know, I know. . .Juggler

Dec 01 17:17:32 <Lensman> Hippy: Yah you really need to read FOW! Let's just say the Puppeteers had motives other than profit from the backward Humans.

Dec 01 17:17:49 <EML> Elephant is a bit of an absentee owner, with lots of gallivanting time.

Dec 01 17:17:57 <Hippy> Lens: why isn't Pelton the oldest living Pelton?

Dec 01 17:18:04 <Fred> elephant could easily be the oldest living pelton

Dec 01 17:18:12 <Fred> if the rest of them are as reckless as he is

Dec 01 17:18:39 <Dan> Elephant could easily be the *only* living Pelton. We don't have more info about his family.

Dec 01 17:18:40 <EML> He's even more reckless than you know.

Dec 01 17:18:46 <Lensman> Hippy: Boosterspice. His grandma was like 175+ when she "invented" the transfer booths. Elephant must have lots of older relatives still alive.

Dec 01 17:19:06 <Lensman> Dan: Okay, it's *possible* but highly unlikely.

Dec 01 17:19:19 <Hippy> That's a a reasonable hypothesis, but by no means proven. A lot of them may have been eaten in the MKWs

Dec 01 17:19:42 <Dan> Lens, I respectfully disagree. Without further info, it's still 50/50.

Dec 01 17:19:49 <Hippy> Also, how old is Pelton, anyway? Larch Bellamy was 300+ and Margo was his mother, so Pelton could be quite old

Dec 01 17:20:06 <Lensman> Again, see the link I posted for discussion of how old Elephant is.

Dec 01 17:20:12 <Hippy> Ed: don't tell me we didn't invent boosterspice. Surely that was a human invention??

Dec 01 17:20:19 <Fred> no

Dec 01 17:20:24 <Fred> boosterspice is from jinx

Dec 01 17:20:27 <Hippy> I shall do, Lens

Dec 01 17:20:33 <Fred> well, semi human

Dec 01 17:20:42 <EML> At the moment, I have no opinion on boosterspice.

Dec 01 17:20:49 <Hippy> So, a bandersnatch invention?? NO!!!!

Dec 01 17:20:59 <SeanS> someone carved up the genes of a ragweed on jinx to make boosterspice

Dec 01 17:21:09 <Lensman> Boosterspice was a human development, altho RC suggests it was developed from the tree-of-life virus in Phssthpok's ship, not ragweed as said earlier.

Dec 01 17:21:15 <Fred> jinxian scientists, but that might be MKW too

Dec 01 17:21:52 <EML> Oh, those Jinxian scientists.

Dec 01 17:21:53 <SeanS> i think the jinx-booster spice link is in there is a tide

Dec 01 17:21:59 <xihr> I'm not a bot, just an idle client :-)

Dec 01 17:22:01 <Lensman> However, the RC was just speculation on Louis' part, so third-person-omniscient narration trumps that... canon still says it's ragweed.

Dec 01 17:22:16 <Dan> xihr spoke!

Dec 01 17:22:21 <Dan> LOL!

Dec 01 17:22:22 <Hippy> Hello xihr!!!

Dec 01 17:22:33 <xihr> hi

Dec 01 17:22:36 <Lensman> And BTW Larry specifically said in the FOW chat that third-person-omniscient trumps speculation by anybody.

Dec 01 17:22:52 <Lensman> Welcome xihr! We were thinking you were a ghost!

Dec 01 17:23:02 <Dan> Yeah, narrators usually aren't allowed to lie.

Dec 01 17:23:15 <Hippy> Except Agatha Christie

Dec 01 17:23:50 <Lensman> LOL! Is that a reference to /His Last Bow/ (Final Bow??)

Dec 01 17:23:54 <Dan> Well, she's the exception that proves the rule. And anyway, Agatha mostly only lied by ommision.

Dec 01 17:24:10 <Hippy> It's a quote from the FoW chat

Dec 01 17:24:11 <Lensman> Oh! No that was /Curtain/

Dec 01 17:24:14 <Hippy> Larry said it

Dec 01 17:24:29 <Lensman> Yes, but I'm trying to figure out what story he was referring to.

Dec 01 17:24:42 <Lensman> Or maybe just her stuff in general?

Dec 01 17:25:04 <Hippy> I think her stuff in general. But the answer to that question is in 'Juggler', isn't it?

Dec 01 17:25:06 <EML> It's not always clear, BTW, when RINGWORLD scenes are in Louis Wu's POV and when they're omnisienct POV.

Dec 01 17:25:26 <Hippy> True, Ed

Dec 01 17:25:29 <EML> It's a mystery to me :-)

Dec 01 17:25:45 <Hippy> <smirk>

Dec 01 17:25:59 <Fred> jinx-boosterspice isn't from 'there is a tide'

Dec 01 17:26:18 <Hippy> So, xihr, tell us a bit about yourself. Your hopes, dreams, fears, attitude toward pre-moistened towellettes. . .

Dec 01 17:26:31 <SeanS> ringworld then?

Dec 01 17:26:32 <Dan> Fred, I think it's from "Ringworld."

Dec 01 17:26:35 <Hippy> I think it's actually Ringworld

Dec 01 17:26:39 <Fred> yeah, I was thinking that

Dec 01 17:26:47 <Fred> when he tells teela scars go away

Dec 01 17:26:49 <Fred> checking

Dec 01 17:26:56 <Hippy> The Jinx link might be from the game

Dec 01 17:27:06 <SeanS> its in one of the books

Dec 01 17:27:30 <Dan> No, I've never seen the game and I remember reading the line.

Dec 01 17:27:30 <SeanS> either tide or ringworld to explain the sabatical or the 200 year birthday party

Dec 01 17:27:45 <Hippy> Originally from the game and then put into the books? Ed? What does 'Juggler' have to say?

Dec 01 17:27:55 <Fred> nope. not ringworld either

Dec 01 17:28:02 * Hippy promises to give up these references to Juggler once he's read 'Fleet'

Dec 01 17:28:08 <SeanS> the game by definition had to come after ringworld

Dec 01 17:28:11 <Fred> all ringworld says is:

Dec 01 17:28:14 <Fred> "Right. A few centuries ago some biological engineers carved up the genes of a ragweed and produced boosterspice."

Dec 01 17:28:37 <Fred> it's not tide or ringworld

Dec 01 17:28:58 <EML> Both TIDE and RINGOWLRD talk about sabbaticals. TIDE mentions the possibility of a 1000-year lifespan.

Dec 01 17:29:00 * Hippy wishes he could read well enough to get out the game and check it

Dec 01 17:29:26 <Dan> Check "Grendal" (SP?)

Dec 01 17:29:48 <Hippy> Actually, that's a good thought, Dan

Dec 01 17:29:52 <SeanS> maybe the game expanded on ringworld to say that those engineers were from the institute of knowledge on jinx

Dec 01 17:30:09 <Hippy> That's what I remember, Sean

Dec 01 17:30:09 <Fred> I don't have grend ala carte. anybody know what collection it's in?

Dec 01 17:30:11 <SeanS> i cant remember

Dec 01 17:30:27 <Hippy> "Neutron Star'

Dec 01 17:30:55 <EML> Yup. Grendel says "Jinxian lab." It's part of CRASHLANDER.

Dec 01 17:31:41 <SeanS> wow, a half hour discussion and numerous text searches to see if my memory checked out ;)

Dec 01 17:31:59 <EML> But Grendel does not say what plant (or whatnot) is the underlying source of boosterspice.

Dec 01 17:32:19 <Dan> Alsoin Crashlander.

Dec 01 17:32:54 <SeanS> well, apparently fleet and juggler are going to trump everything so i reckon i need to go on and get fleet

Dec 01 17:33:09 <Dan> Oh, well that's what I miss by actually having to get up and look at the bookshelves. LOL!

Dec 01 17:33:25 <Fred> got it

Dec 01 17:33:29 <Fred> How many times can you change your morals without losing them all? Bellamy was born before a certain Jinxian biological laboratory produced boosterspice.

Dec 01 17:33:53 <Hippy> Well, that's pretty conclusive

Dec 01 17:34:06 <Lensman> You "could" just look at the "boosterspice" entry at the Incompleat Known Space Concordance to see what stories it's in...

Dec 01 17:34:08 <Fred> doesn't have to be ON jinx though :)

Dec 01 17:34:22 <Hippy> The game mentions that ragweed is a notoriously hardy plant. Luckily, because I'd never heard of it before Ringworld

Dec 01 17:34:28 <EML> If we did things right, FOW and JOW don't trump anything, only shed light in the dark corners.

Dec 01 17:34:44 <Hippy> Lens: where would be the fun in that?

Dec 01 17:35:24 <SeanS> what story was that in, fred?

Dec 01 17:35:35 <SeanS> point taken, ed

Dec 01 17:36:12 <Hippy> Good God, 9:30 I shall be away briefly to dress myself but will be back in about fifteen minutes

Dec 01 17:36:27 <Lensman> FOW trumps the references to using hyperwave pulses for deep-radar. But I consider that a *good* retcon, as older references aren't consistant.

Dec 01 17:36:32 * Hippy is now known as The_Absent_Hippy

Dec 01 17:36:36 <EML> aromas of dinner are starting to waft into my den. I suspect i will be dropping off soon.

Dec 01 17:36:37 <Dan> Never heard of ragweed? Wow! It's the single most mentioned plant when people discuss alergies to polen, or was before it became known that pine trees and yard grass also induced polen-related alergies.

Dec 01 17:36:47 <The_Absent_Hippy> Did I tell you how much I like this no limit on the length of names, Sean?

Dec 01 17:36:54 <SeanS> i noticed

Dec 01 17:37:52 <SeanS> i dont think there is a limit. i just didnt set one. the server might come with one as a default

Dec 01 17:37:58 <EML> yeah, well, when past stories are inconsistent, sometimes it's impractical not to contradict *something*

Dec 01 17:38:04 <Lensman> Yard grass gives me problems, but I think mold is even worse for my allergies.

Dec 01 17:38:05 <SeanS> very true

Dec 01 17:38:24 * Tanada (~Tanada@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 17:38:31 * Tanada has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Dec 01 17:38:31 <SeanS> hi tanada

Dec 01 17:38:34 <SeanS> bye tanada

Dec 01 17:38:35 <Lensman> Welcome Tanada!

Dec 01 17:38:40 * Tanada (~Tanada@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 17:38:44 <SeanS> wb tanada

Dec 01 17:38:47 <Dan> Helo Tanada.

Dec 01 17:38:52 <Tanada> Olah

Dec 01 17:38:56 <Lensman> Come when you can stay awhile, Tanada! :)

Dec 01 17:39:01 <EML> ola

Dec 01 17:39:03 <Tanada> or however the hell you say it Hi everyone

Dec 01 17:39:22 <Tanada> just got off work

Dec 01 17:39:43 <Lensman> If you're trying for Espanol, it's "Hola".

Dec 01 17:39:52 <Fred> grendel, sean

Dec 01 17:39:56 <SeanS> k

Dec 01 17:40:13 <Tanada> How about in Esperanto, the language we were all suppossed to be speaking by now

Dec 01 17:40:27 <Lensman> Forry Ackerman would approve.

Dec 01 17:40:27 <SeanS> i never learned esperanto

Dec 01 17:40:28 <Fred> only The Shat is fluent in Esperanto

Dec 01 17:40:47 <Lensman> Was Shatner in that one movie they made in Esperanto?

Dec 01 17:40:51 <Fred> si

Dec 01 17:40:57 <EML> Okay, all ... I'm off to dinner. Have a good one.

Dec 01 17:41:05 <Fred> eat one for me!

Dec 01 17:41:06 <Lensman> Ah, my company has finally arrived.

Dec 01 17:41:12 * Lensman is now known as Lensman_free

Dec 01 17:41:13 <Dan> Not to be confused with "UUUULllaaaaaaa" Which is Martian for "where's the antibiotics? These humans have given me the flu!"

Dec 01 17:41:33 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Dec 01 17:42:13 <Tanada> Shatner can't be the only one....or can he?

Dec 01 17:43:47 <Dan> LOL!

Dec 01 17:45:25 <Tanada> Has Paris ever gone a decade without someone rioting in the streets?

Dec 01 17:45:32 <Dan> The Shat is a conversation-killer.

Dec 01 17:45:56 <Fred> The Shat rocks!

Dec 01 17:46:13 <Fred> I'm boycotting the new Crap Trek unless they put him back in

Dec 01 17:46:56 <SeanS> well, i will be afk for a bit. gf just came in and said she was starving

Dec 01 17:47:20 <xihr> Incubus

Dec 01 17:47:45 <Tanada> Imagine the youth of Paris rioting in Picards day and age

Dec 01 17:47:52 <Tanada> oops not very KS I know

Dec 01 17:48:12 <Dan> Set your Phasers to "proters?"

Dec 01 17:48:17 <Dan> protest.

Dec 01 17:48:19 <Fred> the french police would immediately surrender

Dec 01 17:48:41 <Dan> LOL, my typose got worse when I started typing with both hands again.

Dec 01 17:48:47 <Dan> See?

Dec 01 17:48:50 <Dan> :)

Dec 01 17:48:54 <Fred> they'd be throwing escargot croissants at each other

Dec 01 17:49:07 <Fred> and yellling taunts like John Cleese

Dec 01 17:50:43 <Tanada> lol

Dec 01 17:53:03 <Dan> "Go away or I shall taunt you some more..."

Dec 01 17:53:51 <Dan> Well, shall we change the subject? Or just get silly?

Dec 01 17:55:22 <Tanada> OK how about....organleggers and the freezer klaw

Dec 01 17:55:25 <Tanada> law that is

Dec 01 17:55:34 <Fred> the freezer klaw?

Dec 01 17:55:44 <Fred> I remember him from Fantastic Four

Dec 01 17:55:47 <Dan> Sounds like a New Wave band.

Dec 01 17:57:45 <Tanada> LOL, I was referring to the freezer laws passed while GIL was an ARM

Dec 01 17:58:16 <Tanada> They took all the poor frozen dead and usef them for organ bank transplants under the first law

Dec 01 17:58:57 <Tanada> The proposed and defeated second freezer law was to take all the frozen insane people for the organ banks.

Dec 01 17:59:40 <Tanada> It was defeated the first time around after GIL caught on to the fact that Anubis, a major organlegger, was using the law to refinance his return

Dec 01 18:00:54 <Dan> Well, we nevr found out if the organleggers tried again with better secrecy.

Dec 01 18:02:04 * The_Absent_Hippy is now known as CleansedMan

Dec 01 18:03:09 <Tanada> I don't think the freezer laws would stop there, for instance even if you leave the insane alone what about the brain dead and/or the severly injured?

Dec 01 18:03:31 <Tanada> They are brain dead frozen dead, why wouldn't you put them in the organ banks?

Dec 01 18:04:51 <Dan> I think the freezer laws would gradually increase until no one frozen was safe from being broken up for spare parts.

Dec 01 18:05:33 <Dan> And then the practice would die out becasue of the fear that they'd wake up as donor parts.

Dec 01 18:06:17 <CleansedMan> That''s a point, Dan

Dec 01 18:06:25 * CleansedMan is now known as Hippy

Dec 01 18:06:27 <Tanada> well the first freezer law pretty much killed the idea of people voluntarily going into the freezer tanks, GIL asks one of the tenders and he says basically nobody is being frozen any more

Dec 01 18:06:33 <Hippy> So much for my pun on 'Lensman'. He's gone

Dec 01 18:07:15 <Hippy> Well, improvements in medicine mans that people wouldn't have to freeze themselves to await a cure that already existed

Dec 01 18:07:28 <Hippy> But they might have to freeze themselves to save up the money for the cure

Dec 01 18:07:36 <Tanada> Imagine that, the first freezer law cleaned out 30% of world freezer capacity and nobody wanted to refill those slots

Dec 01 18:07:53 <Dan> Shows good sense, to my mind.

Dec 01 18:08:25 <Dan> Why take the chance that you'd become someone's unwilling transplant doner?

Dec 01 18:08:32 <Tanada> A line I think I remember from THE DEFENSELESS DEAD, its hard to defend yourself when your frozen dead

Dec 01 18:08:56 <Hippy> On the moon you have 'remand freezers' while you await trial. Perhaps they could use the empty freezers for that

Dec 01 18:09:38 <Tanada> Up until Naomi nobody had ever been retreived

Dec 01 18:09:58 <Dan> I could see it catching on as an alternative to prisons, until the felons got thawed and released, then ran rampant.

Dec 01 18:10:19 <Tanada> LOL, kind of like Demolition Man with Stalone?

Dec 01 18:10:28 <Hippy> But the problem with alternatives to prison is that it keeps organs off the market, so to speak

Dec 01 18:10:59 <Hippy> Sorry, I mean alternatives to prisons that still act like prisons

Dec 01 18:11:06 <Dan> There's a scene at the end of Knightrider 2000 where Charles Manson was about to be thawed nd released.

Dec 01 18:11:57 <Hippy> In Gil's time they would probably cure him. Like with Leviticus Hale

Dec 01 18:12:02 <Dan> And isn't *that* thought enough to shrink th 'nads off of the Marques de Sade?

Dec 01 18:12:32 <Hippy> What about Ed Bundy? Even worse

Dec 01 18:12:46 <Tanada> Charlie Manson would be long dead if it were not for a poorly thought out Supream Court decision in the 1970's

Dec 01 18:13:00 <Tanada> I trhink you mean TED Bundy

Dec 01 18:13:12 <Dan> Or Al Bundy.

Dec 01 18:13:21 <Hippy> Er. . .the one not from 'Married With Children'

Dec 01 18:13:52 <Hippy> I probably do mean Ted Bundy. From Florida if I recall correctly

Dec 01 18:13:54 <Dan> Both are hidious monsters that should never be allowed out in public again.

Dec 01 18:14:42 <Hippy> Would you take one of their organs if it was offered?

Dec 01 18:15:09 <Dan> Only to microwave into ash.

Dec 01 18:16:32 <Dan> I'm assuming that I'd never be told *where* a transplant came from.

Dec 01 18:16:47 <Tanada> If I could get a new set of digestive organs that were healthy then HELL YES I would take them from a killer

Dec 01 18:16:53 <NickE> back

Dec 01 18:17:07 <Tanada> wb Nick

Dec 01 18:17:16 <NickE> catching up

Dec 01 18:19:24 <Hippy> Me, too.

Dec 01 18:19:48 <Hippy> I've actually had organ transplants (corneas) but they are very strict about the privacy of the donor here

Dec 01 18:20:30 <Hippy> Now, let us say you have a killer and a small child who died in a car accident. Whose organs would you take then?

Dec 01 18:20:39 <Tanada> both

Dec 01 18:20:54 <Hippy> Same here.

Dec 01 18:21:02 <Tanada> dead is dead, does the dead child need their organs any more?

Dec 01 18:21:14 <Dan> I can't see why people would be told where their transplants came from. Surely the donors have a right to privacy?

Dec 01 18:21:19 <Tanada> not to be gruesome but accidents happen all the time

Dec 01 18:21:52 <Hippy> Okay. Now suppose you have a child that is likely to die early, because of starvation, war, pestilence, whatever. Is it right to euthenase them and then use their organs for someone with a better chance of having a long, productive life?

Dec 01 18:22:13 <Tanada> No, the ENDS never justify the MEANS

Dec 01 18:22:24 <Hippy> I was under the impression that in America it was routine to tell the recipient who the donor was

Dec 01 18:22:49 <Tanada> And if you feed that child they will grow itno a healthy adult, run 6 red lights and end up in the organ banks anyhow ;)

Dec 01 18:23:03 <Hippy> But the child will die anyway. Why not at least guarantee someone a healthy life rather than let two people die?

Dec 01 18:23:36 * Hippy should be putting smiley faces here but I'm liking the implications. Just like re-writing 'The Jigsaw Man'

Dec 01 18:23:42 <Tanada> If you have the technology to transplant organs you have more than enough technology to feed everyone a healthy diet

Dec 01 18:24:11 <Hippy> Present reality would dispute that, thouhg

Dec 01 18:24:14 <Tanada> and you said LIKELY not CERTAIN

Dec 01 18:24:29 <Dan> Nope, it's routene to hide the donor's ID from the recipient forever, unless the donor's family decide to tell. The doctors won't tell even under threat of lawyers.

Dec 01 18:24:45 <Hippy> Well, greater than a given percentage - let's say 50% to start with

Dec 01 18:24:57 <Tanada> Not at all, we have the technology to feed everyone on this planet well, what we lack is the pollitical will to stop strongmen from stealing food from the defenseless living

Dec 01 18:25:11 <Hippy> Same down here, Dan

Dec 01 18:25:49 <Tanada> You could solve the kidnet shortage inside a year if you paid the donor for a live transplant what the organ is worth.

Dec 01 18:26:01 <Hippy> Okay, we have the technology but don't use it for whatever reason. So the child is still greater than 50% chance of dying.

Dec 01 18:26:35 <Hippy> Indeed you could, and they are doing that in India, but people still object to the practice

Dec 01 18:26:41 <Tanada> kidney's sold by the Red Cross or similer organizations go for hundreds of thousands of dollar's in insurence payments, but the donors can get nothing BY LAW

Dec 01 18:27:07 <Hippy> Then that needs to change

Dec 01 18:27:17 <Tanada> in Western Democracies (phtui)

Dec 01 18:27:39 <Hippy> Now, is it worth kidnapping someone and carving them up for a cool million? It's been done for far less

Dec 01 18:27:57 <Tanada> as for your hypothetical Hippy, the ends never justify the means, it is evil to let the child starve OR steal its organs. Neither is a moral choice

Dec 01 18:28:18 <Tanada> Thats what Organlegging is all about after all

Dec 01 18:28:22 <Fred> But it's stupid to let the child starve and THEN steal it's organs.

Dec 01 18:28:25 <Hippy> But technology affects morals, as Larry Niven has pointed out

Dec 01 18:28:58 <Tanada> so if we have the technology to keep everyone fed and we let children starve are we a moral country?

Dec 01 18:29:08 <Hippy> I remember reading that in medieval France people were so poor they sold the skins of their dear departed for parchment

Dec 01 18:29:59 <Hippy> I would argue that it's not moral to let people starve if you can feed them. It might also be immoral to not house them if you can.

Dec 01 18:30:22 <Hippy> Or give them free Intenet access. Or a new car every four weeks. Where do you draw the line?

Dec 01 18:32:10 * Hippy points out he isn't being provocative just to get a rise out of Tanada, but to get some conversation happening

Dec 01 18:32:34 <Tanada> We agree on thos basic points

Dec 01 18:32:55 <Hippy> Now, xihr has been organlegging since the middle 70's. What are their thoughts?

Dec 01 18:33:10 <Tanada> I have been arguing with the we must have a human die off ASAP to save the environment crowd for months, it puts me rather in a testy mood

Dec 01 18:33:46 <Hippy> I don't mind testy. I'm not easily offended, so feel free to say whatever

Dec 01 18:34:07 <Hippy> And what kind of a crowd advocates a human die-off? Bloody hell

Dec 01 18:34:34 * fentex (~chatzilla@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 18:34:42 <Hippy> Howdy, fentex

Dec 01 18:34:46 <fentex> hi

Dec 01 18:35:04 <fentex> hello

Dec 01 18:35:07 <NickE> hey

Dec 01 18:35:12 <Tanada> howdy

Dec 01 18:35:18 * Hippy has changed the topic to: Organlegging - good, bad, or a substitute for a Happy Meal?

Dec 01 18:35:30 <NickE> OK, caught up kinda

Dec 01 18:35:36 <Hippy> Just for people newly arriving

Dec 01 18:35:53 <NickE> I freaked the interviewer by telling him I was cahtting with Larry :-)

Dec 01 18:36:11 <Tanada> HA the radical far left environmentalist movement HATES human beings. They describe us as a species that are a virulent cancer destroying the environment

Dec 01 18:36:13 <Hippy> Well done, PseudoSpike

Dec 01 18:36:32 <Hippy> Damn FROMATES

Dec 01 18:36:35 <NickE> heh. Nice guy, big fan of the 'cast

Dec 01 18:36:46 <Hippy> Remind them that Gaia created us to preserve itself

Dec 01 18:37:17 <NickE> Should be a good commentary on ep 5 which I think is the last one due out before Christmas (ep 4 out today)

Dec 01 18:37:35 <Tanada> it doesn't matter Hippy, they don;t listen to ME lol, I am just a operson 'in denial of overshoot' who is 'seeking solutions in isolation'

Dec 01 18:37:36 <Hippy> Can you get the scripts of these eps?

Dec 01 18:38:00 <Hippy> Tanada: now there's a phrase to conjure with

Dec 01 18:38:27 <Tanada> yeah, I get sick of seeing both of them used repeatedly

Dec 01 18:39:12 <Tanada> I beleive we COULD support 18 Billion or more humans on this planet, but it would be very costly for the rest of the animal life on the planet.

Dec 01 18:39:45 <Hippy> If we all stood on Zanzibar it wouldn't be - a pretty miserable life, I grant you

Dec 01 18:40:07 <Tanada> A few hundred breeder reactors synthisizing carbohydrates and proties which we would feed to livestock would replace ranching

Dec 01 18:40:19 <Hippy> The main dangers to animal life are the crappy way we farm things. But we are getting better

Dec 01 18:40:56 <Tanada> I grew up on a very small farm and I see what Corporate Farming has done to agriculture, none of it good.

Dec 01 18:41:06 <Hippy> Yes. Too many people stuck in the 15th century with farming methods. I include the ones down my end of the world in that, too

Dec 01 18:42:06 <Tanada> if the synthetic food is tasty enough we would eat it directly and not need much farmland other than for luxury foods

Dec 01 18:42:17 <Hippy> The other solution to the starving millions is to build factories for them to work in. Once they have money to buy food, people will start to grow it

Dec 01 18:42:34 <Hippy> Now that's the American way, Tanada

Dec 01 18:42:42 <NickE> brb

Dec 01 18:43:24 <Hippy> Is there any food product in that once-proud Republic that doens't have soy beans in it? That's sadly where the modern farming methodology has taken us

Dec 01 18:44:00 <Hippy> We could always look at nanotechnology to make food (a machine that makes beef) but that's a bit pie in the sky at the moment

Dec 01 18:44:23 <Tanada> Sure, Corn Chips ;)

Dec 01 18:44:47 <Dan> Carniculture. Growing meat from cells in a nutrient bath.

Dec 01 18:45:01 <Dan> H. Beam Piper.

Dec 01 18:45:21 <Tanada> Same basic concept, and it used to play a starring role in a lot of future history fiction.

Dec 01 18:45:30 <Hippy> Has there been any work on that? Ah, I see. So that predates 'Chicken Little' from 'Flight of the Dragonfly'

Dec 01 18:45:38 <Tanada> Piper, Heinlein, dozens of others wrote about it

Dec 01 18:46:18 <Hippy> I don't know about fungus masquerading as beef - but then I might not have the option of both

Dec 01 18:46:20 <NickE> yep. Just listened to Methusalas Children. That mentions it

Dec 01 18:46:53 <Dan> Misses 'Arris, the chicken heart that grew to enormous size.

Dec 01 18:47:06 <Tanada> What I don;t get is this, we know how to keep marrow cells alive and productive so we could grow all the O- blood we would everr need and stop blood shortages.

Dec 01 18:47:10 <Tanada> But we don;t

Dec 01 18:47:19 <NickE> Practicalities would make it more expensive than truffles curently

Dec 01 18:47:24 <Hippy> I would say there's plenty of land to grow cattle in the orthodox way if we planted the crops for the cattle rather than just ranch them on open land

Dec 01 18:47:36 <Dan> Because the squemish among us protest too much.

Dec 01 18:47:58 <Hippy> Hang on - we can grow blood?

Dec 01 18:48:08 <Dan> For squemish, read "Religious fundimentalist fanatics

Dec 01 18:48:11 <Dan> "

Dec 01 18:48:44 <Tanada> Would you rather have cultured O- blood transfusion or risk AIDES from donor blood? Not to mention all the other blood borne pathogens you get exposed to from transfusion

Dec 01 18:49:16 <Hippy> The cultured blood. I didn't know they had that technology

Dec 01 18:49:48 <Tanada> Hippy marrow cells are easy to grow, you need a spongy mnaterial for them to clump in and a supply of nutrients and oxygen

Dec 01 18:50:08 <Hippy> Well, I'll be. . .I had no idea

Dec 01 18:50:42 <Hippy> Why the hell isn't the Red Cross just growing blood, then?

Dec 01 18:50:49 <Tanada> nobody does it for whatever reason, probably mostly cost related. If you transfuse someone with donor blood and they get illness or injury you are protected by the good samaritan laws

Dec 01 18:51:12 <Dan> It's part of the tech to grow skin cells for grafts. Been around for a decade or more, under development.

Dec 01 18:51:44 <Tanada> if you provide cultured blood or that artificial chemical substitute stuff they used in The ABYSS you are open to lawsuits

Dec 01 18:51:49 <Hippy> Well, with any luck they won't need blood donors anymore. Excellent news

Dec 01 18:52:32 <Hippy> Well, that can be changed at the whim of each State legislature, I presume

Dec 01 18:52:33 <Tanada> Thank the LAWYERS who protect us from beneficial technology

Dec 01 18:53:32 <Tanada> Hippy it would have to be federal or international, if people cross state or country lines to get a transfusion because your state allows it it becomes a federal/UN matter

Dec 01 18:54:19 <Hippy> Not if you become a resident of the 'transfusion' state

Dec 01 18:54:55 <Hippy> "I came to Kansas because of the flatness, but I stayed for the blood transfusion'

Dec 01 18:56:49 <Tanada> LOL, I can see THAT on a bumper sticker!

Dec 01 18:56:59 <Hippy> Anyway, in my once-proud Commonwealth it would be a State matter

Dec 01 18:57:56 <Hippy> So improvements in the medical technology may mean that organlegging doesn't become a problem. I like the idea of genetically modifying pigs to produce human organs. A good plan

Dec 01 19:01:07 <Tanada> I am alergic to swine so it would kill me

Dec 01 19:01:23 <Tanada> I prefer the Babboon hearts and livers option

Dec 01 19:02:39 <Hippy> Hmm. I suppose we could modify almost anything to give us the organs we need. Or for that matter, that they need. Imagine not having to destroy a racehorse because you can graft on a transplated leg or whatever

Dec 01 19:03:52 <Hippy> Then there's the controversial topic of 'elephantoplasty'

Dec 01 19:04:00 <Tanada> Actually horse meat isn't bad eating <eg>

Dec 01 19:04:23 <Hippy> You can't eat a fine animal like a racehorse!

Dec 01 19:04:42 <Dan> Would you rather make them into glue?

Dec 01 19:05:06 <Hippy> Put them out to stud (where possible)

Dec 01 19:07:00 <Tanada> What about the Geldings?

Dec 01 19:07:24 <Hippy> Well, we have transplant technology. . .

Dec 01 19:07:48 * Hippy pictures a market in organlegged gonads for horses

Dec 01 19:07:53 <Tanada> ROFLMAO!

Dec 01 19:08:38 <Hippy> A horse is happily walking along one day. suddenly two other horses leap out and grab it. Horseleggers aren't sadists, they don't have that much respect for the stuff

Dec 01 19:08:57 <Hippy> Gil the Foreleg Hamilton has to investigate

Dec 01 19:09:10 <NickE> <grin>

Dec 01 19:09:27 <Hippy> He's a three-legged former Kentucky Derby winner with a mysterious fourth leg

Dec 01 19:10:31 <Hippy> Hmm. Larry did he got stuck for future Gil the ARM stories. . .

Dec 01 19:11:10 <Dan> Somehow I don't think he'll be up for any Gill the Racehorse stories. LOL!

Dec 01 19:11:43 <Hippy> An owner needs the stud fees and he has a gelding that really looks the part of a good runner. But sadly said gelding is a bit short on performance as a stud, so he needs to get gonads transplaneted onto his horse

Dec 01 19:12:13 <Hippy> It's a Niven/Dick Francis crossover!

Dec 01 19:13:13 <Dan> But the genes would be those of the donor horse.

Dec 01 19:13:16 <Hippy> The horse they grab is related to Larry Greenberg from 'World of Ptavvs'. It's all in my new novel, "Pawnbroker of Worlds'

Dec 01 19:13:47 <Hippy> Yes, but the owners of the dam wouldn't know that. They think they're getting a good horse's genes

Dec 01 19:13:48 <Dan> Juggler of Words?

Dec 01 19:14:02 * growler (~growler@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 19:14:02 <Dan> :)

Dec 01 19:14:11 <NickE> Hi Euan

Dec 01 19:14:13 <Dan> hiya growler.

Dec 01 19:14:21 <Hippy> Afternoon, Euan

Dec 01 19:14:22 <growler> hi

Dec 01 19:14:28 <Tanada> OK this is passing the bend on the Silly scales

Dec 01 19:14:37 <Tanada> hi growler

Dec 01 19:14:38 <NickE> fun tho

Dec 01 19:14:50 <Hippy> Yes, I think you're right there, Tanada

Dec 01 19:14:54 <Dan> Tananda, I think we bent the needle on my bullshit meter.

Dec 01 19:14:59 <Tanada> lol

Dec 01 19:15:23 <Tanada> so to ground ourselves in reallity and KS, we need to get to the asteroids to solve the Silver crisis

Dec 01 19:15:46 <Hippy> There's a silver crisis?

Dec 01 19:16:03 <Hippy> I thought the disappearance of camera film had solved that

Dec 01 19:16:15 <Tanada> Unlike most metals Silver has one purpose that causes it to be dispersed into the environment in nano concentrations which are unrecoverable

Dec 01 19:16:30 <Dan> Yeah, someone made a surfboard out of Earth total supply, and Hollywood bought it as a special effect for a cheesey movie.

Dec 01 19:16:32 <Tanada> yup, camera film is the culprit

Dec 01 19:17:05 <Hippy> Ah, I see. So we can't just. . .what are we using silver for now, then?

Dec 01 19:17:15 <Dan> Don't look at me, I went to digital photography several years ago.

Dec 01 19:17:31 <Tanada> camera film is going to stay popular in a lot of the world, digital camera's are expensive and require batteries far more than a film camera

Dec 01 19:17:59 <Dan> Aluminium. It's cheaper, just have to mix it with lead so that the coins weigh out right.

Dec 01 19:18:13 <Hippy> Hmm. Good point. So they are saying that there's no minalbe deposits left? That would explain the price for it, anyway

Dec 01 19:18:25 <Tanada> The three biggest silver consumers are still Film, Jewelry and electrical contacts

Dec 01 19:18:36 <Hippy> Yes, but it doesn't react to light very well, Dan

Dec 01 19:18:56 <Hippy> Doesn't the Moon have silver on it?

Dec 01 19:19:14 <Dan> So we start melting down all those Goth kids for their silver jewelry?

Dec 01 19:19:26 <Tanada> Actually there are good odds the Moon has alot of silver, if the mars sized impactor origen theory is correct

Dec 01 19:19:45 <Hippy> Only one way to find out :)

Dec 01 19:19:53 * fentex has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox])

Dec 01 19:19:56 <Tanada> I second the motion!

Dec 01 19:20:16 <Hippy> Okay. Read the Bible for hidden clues it is :)

Dec 01 19:20:27 <Tanada> Of course there is one OTHER source of silver but the enviro's won;t let us use it

Dec 01 19:20:35 * Hippy afk to get a Bible and also for morning ablutions

Dec 01 19:21:18 <Dan> Hmmmm, every cloud has a silver lining, so we start mining clouds... Won't the Greens go crazy over that one!

Dec 01 19:21:37 <Tanada> lol, not what I had in mind but it sounds like fun

Dec 01 19:23:38 <Hippy> Got a very J G Ballard feel to it

Dec 01 19:23:59 <Tanada> My second favorite source of silver, after moon mining

Dec 01 19:24:06 <Tanada> breeder reactors

Dec 01 19:24:19 <Hippy> How do they produce silver?

Dec 01 19:25:15 <Dan> Alchemy!

Dec 01 19:25:29 <Hippy> That's what I was thinking

Dec 01 19:26:01 <Tanada> Yes, its a hidden fact that spent LWR fuel or Breeder reactor fuel is .03% pure stable silver

Dec 01 19:26:02 <Dan> Nah, breeder reactors produce lots of stuff as the pile degrades.

Dec 01 19:26:05 <Hippy> They produce silver for sufficiently wide definitons of 'silver'?

Dec 01 19:26:30 <Dan> So we can make film that exposes itself?

Dec 01 19:26:35 <Hippy> Oh, okay. That doesn't sound like much

Dec 01 19:26:37 <Tanada> one of the 20 most common results of fission is Silver

Dec 01 19:26:55 <Tanada> well it isn't much, but it is recoverable LOL

Dec 01 19:27:20 <Hippy> It sounds like a win/win situation, but you're right about the windfarm freaks.

Dec 01 19:27:39 <Tanada> Palladium, Rhodium and Ruthenium are much more common in spent fuel, and they sell for a hell of a lot more than Silver too!

Dec 01 19:28:17 <Tanada> but we can't recover any of them in the USA, and the French just mix them into the glassified waste stream

Dec 01 19:28:34 <Tanada> its a crying shame I tell yah!

Dec 01 19:28:38 <Hippy> So that waste stream is a minable resource

Dec 01 19:29:09 <Hippy> It sounds bloody stupid. The waste can be recycled and palladium is worth heaps and is easily traded

Dec 01 19:29:12 <Dan> LOL! So is manure, but lots of folks don't like to think about it.

Dec 01 19:29:50 <Tanada> One metric ton of

Dec 01 19:30:09 <Dan> The obvious counterargument to present to the Greens is "but it's *recycling!*"

Dec 01 19:30:11 <Tanada> spent fuel, at a burn up of 33 GWd/t (gigawatt

Dec 01 19:30:31 <Tanada> days per metric ton) contains > 1 kg palladium

Dec 01 19:30:46 <Tanada> Pd), > 400 g rhodium (Rh) and > 2 kg ruthenium

Dec 01 19:30:55 <Hippy> Jesus! One palladium (fine) ounce is worth $US349

Dec 01 19:31:01 <Tanada> (Ru) (1). Indeed, by 2030 spent nuclear fuel could

Dec 01 19:31:06 <Hippy> That's about $0.92 Canadian

Dec 01 19:31:15 <Tanada> supply up to 1000 t Pd and 340 t Rh. This would

Dec 01 19:31:32 <Tanada> be a considerable addition to the yield from natural

Dec 01 19:31:48 <Tanada> natural

Dec 01 19:31:54 <Tanada> sources

Dec 01 19:32:22 <Dan> As I said:

Dec 01 19:32:24 <Dan> The obvious counterargument to present to the Greens is "but it's *recycling!*"

Dec 01 19:32:36 <Hippy> $349 per tonne is certainly a minable concentration

Dec 01 19:32:44 <Tanada> Ohh, buts its slightly radioactive and scarry!

Dec 01 19:33:05 <Dan> So's your iPod.

Dec 01 19:33:32 <Tanada> That's from BTW

Dec 01 19:34:27 <NickE> Well, I'm not contributing much aand its gone half past midnight here, so I'll wish you all a good one, nice to see a good liveley chat and annoyed to have had to cut out while Larry was still around, but thats the cost of (other) fandom :-)

Dec 01 19:35:02 <Tanada> C'Ya NickE

Dec 01 19:35:14 <Hippy> 'Bye Nick

Dec 01 19:35:19 <Dan> Night, Nick.

Dec 01 19:35:34 <Tanada> Hippy $349 per OUNCE (troy)

Dec 01 19:35:40 <NickE> CAtch you next...year! And on teh list of course (sooooo behind right now)

Dec 01 19:35:49 <Hippy> Yep, Tanada

Dec 01 19:35:51 <Tanada> 1 kg is

Dec 01 19:35:51 <NickE> night

Dec 01 19:35:55 * NickE has quit ()

Dec 01 19:36:12 <Hippy> But you have to have a ton of fuel to get that ounce, that's what I meant

Dec 01 19:36:19 <Hippy> Those ounces, I mean

Dec 01 19:36:23 <Tanada> 26.43 Troay ounces

Dec 01 19:37:02 <Tanada> $9224.xx per ton.

Dec 01 19:37:24 <Tanada> Yucca mountain is designed to hold 70,000 tons of spent fuel

Dec 01 19:37:32 <Hippy> Oh. Well in that case you have $9224.07 a ton (yield per ton) which is very, very economical indeed

Dec 01 19:37:44 <Tanada> the USA currently holds somewhere around 58,000 tons of spent fuel

Dec 01 19:38:03 <Hippy> How do you extract the palladium, ruthenium etc

Dec 01 19:38:05 <Hippy> ?

Dec 01 19:38:06 <Tanada> But we can'tr recycle it

Dec 01 19:38:30 <Tanada> All three platinum group metals are flouride extractible

Dec 01 19:38:52 <Hippy> Good. Some proper use of fluoride for a change, rather than polluting my cup of tea

Dec 01 19:39:09 <Tanada> you dissolve the waste after you extract the higher actinides (Uranium, Neptunium Plutonium ect ect)

Dec 01 19:39:20 <Tanada> in hydroflouric acid

Dec 01 19:39:25 <Hippy> You should flog the spent fuel off to Mexico. That's what Mexico is for

Dec 01 19:39:34 <Tanada> then bubble flourine gas through it

Dec 01 19:40:17 <Tanada> Why give Mexico all that valuable metal, they steal enough jobs already!

Dec 01 19:40:21 <Hippy> That seems extremely simple. I wonder if we could take the spent fuel off you, ship it over here and do it ourselves? Hmm. Good value added work, that

Dec 01 19:41:05 <Hippy> No, no, no. You buy the metal back off them. All you're doing is shipping the pollution over the border

Dec 01 19:41:08 <Tanada> IT IS !!!!!!! That's why I got so excited about it two years ago, but nobody outside of Japan is interested, and their interest seems to have waned.

Dec 01 19:42:35 <Tanada> Its crazy, we will mine gold ore down to something like $.20 per ton, but we won't mine reactor waste with a cash value of $9000.00 from ONE metal and other metals as byproducts

Dec 01 19:42:46 <Tanada> How does this make any friggin sense?

Dec 01 19:43:31 <Hippy> It doesn't. But politics rarely does

Dec 01 19:45:24 <Tanada> sigh

Dec 01 19:45:42 <Tanada> what happenned to the profit motive fer crying all night?

Dec 01 19:46:55 <Hippy> Swamped in a sea of environmental guilt, I suppose

Dec 01 19:47:12 <Hippy> And killed off by tax concessions for mining but not for recycling

Dec 01 19:47:38 * Hippy was just reading about Fuch's Dystrophy, which Larry Niven has. I empathise with him

Dec 01 19:49:19 <Hippy> Just been reading. Damn verbs. . .

Dec 01 19:49:36 <Tanada> life sucks and then you die, but if you did it right your kids/relatives will carry on PAK style

Dec 01 19:49:40 <Dan> *I* understood.

Dec 01 19:49:55 <Hippy> Yeah, but you're from Georgia :)

Dec 01 19:50:08 <Tanada> lol I understood as well

Dec 01 19:50:22 <Dan> And I'm dyslexic, so I'm used to words and concepts being in a blender.

Dec 01 19:50:31 <Hippy> Well, we now that verbs redundant

Dec 01 19:50:32 <Tanada> and my granny was a one room schoolhouse teacher in the early 20th century

Dec 01 19:50:58 <Tanada> yes verb ARE or CAN BE redundant lol

Dec 01 19:51:19 <Hippy> Yep, and we PROVED it

Dec 01 19:52:41 <Dan> Lots of meaning comes through from the context it is presented within.

Dec 01 19:53:36 <Hippy> I was always taught that as a child. You can slip up though. I'd been using 'trepidation' as a synonym for 'erection' for many years before I was picked up on it

Dec 01 19:53:51 <Hippy> In a police line up due to a certain trepidation

Dec 01 19:53:54 <Tanada> So who wants to fund my waste recycling company?

Dec 01 19:54:12 <Hippy> Put me down for $100 worth of shares

Dec 01 19:54:17 <Dan> Got a permit for that radioactive garbage?

Dec 01 19:54:41 <Tanada> Hippy said I can send that part to Mexico with his blessings

Dec 01 19:55:18 <Hippy> Judging by their beer they probably cook with the stuff

Dec 01 19:55:56 <Hippy> Hmm. Are both Freds the same Fred?

Dec 01 19:56:12 <Tanada> No clue they were here before I was

Dec 01 19:56:42 <Hippy> And what has happened to xihr. They were chatting away 0.000000000019 to the dozen a while back and have gone all silent again

Dec 01 19:57:49 <Tanada> Any idea what the difference in cratering is from a nuke vs a meteorite of the same energy?

Dec 01 19:58:28 <Hippy> Þ - um, I would've thought only the radioactivity

Dec 01 19:59:18 <Tanada> Well I was wondering because a nuke releases the energy at a specific point, whereas the meteroite is trying to burrow deeper as it is being vaporized...

Dec 01 19:59:28 <Tanada> but does that make any difference?

Dec 01 19:59:55 <Hippy> I would say, yes, since the nuke is usually an airburst going in all directions, as you said

Dec 01 20:00:06 <Tanada> They were showing the meteorite craters found by the Levy team all over the Earth

Dec 01 20:00:17 <Hippy> The meteorite produces hot plasma moving in a given direction, carried over from the impact

Dec 01 20:00:25 <Tanada> on the Science channel or discovery

Dec 01 20:00:35 <Hippy> Ah, yes. 'Lucifer's Hammer' in real life

Dec 01 20:00:52 * Alex (~Alex@ has joined #knownspace

Dec 01 20:01:03 <Tanada> hard to realize the Earth has so darn many of the things, but we never studied them in geography class way back when

Dec 01 20:01:09 <Hippy> Howdy, Alex

Dec 01 20:01:16 <Tanada> hi alex

Dec 01 20:01:44 <Alex> Just realised it's Saturday chat day

Dec 01 20:01:58 <Hippy> You missed Larry. He was on before

Dec 01 20:02:16 <Alex> Tanj!

Dec 01 20:02:22 <Hippy> And Ed Lerner was on

Dec 01 20:02:30 <Tanada> imagine how the world would have reacted to a major impactor during say the Korean War, or say Berlin during the airlift

Dec 01 20:02:37 <Alex> Anything intersting?

Dec 01 20:02:39 <Hippy> And we have wrung everything we could out of transplanting horse gonads

Dec 01 20:03:02 <Dan> I'd say we milked that one dry, yes.

Dec 01 20:03:10 <Hippy> LOL!

Dec 01 20:03:14 <Tanada> ewww I knew someone would go there

Dec 01 20:03:14 <Dan> :)

Dec 01 20:03:40 <Tanada> mountain oysters are ment to be sold to wierdo's who eat them

Dec 01 20:03:44 <Tanada> not milked

Dec 01 20:03:54 <Tanada> :)

Dec 01 20:04:17 <Hippy> Well, that was one possible scenario for spasm war. A meteorite hits the Earth, people think it's a nuclear explosion and everything goes 'foom'

Dec 01 20:04:22 <Alex> I wonder if Jerry P could be persuaded to drop in here when Inferno2 is out?

Dec 01 20:04:41 <Hippy> I was hoping you were his son :)

Dec 01 20:05:02 <Hippy> In any case, that's not until next September. . .

Dec 01 20:05:25 <Alex> 'Fraid not, just a fan

Dec 01 20:05:37 <Tanada> A lot depends on the date of the impactor Hippy, if it happenned now we would wait before shooting

Dec 01 20:06:06 <Tanada> If it was 1951-63 we would have shot first and asked questions later

Dec 01 20:06:08 <Hippy> Oh, indeed. The scenario was based on the now debunked idea that the systems were automatic

Dec 01 20:06:18 <Alex> I didn't realise publishing was so slow - they just turned in final draft

Dec 01 20:06:33 <Hippy> september 2008 is close???

Dec 01 20:06:42 <Tanada> publishers make tortises look speedy

Dec 01 20:06:54 <Hippy> You're a patient man, Alex - a patient person, I should say

Dec 01 20:07:10 <Tanada> they are aiming for Christmas 08 I betcha

Dec 01 20:07:16 <Hippy> 'Paperback distribution is seriously broken' to quote Jerry Pournelle

Dec 01 20:07:49 <Hippy> Probably. There's no excuse for such a long lead time on books nowadays. Not if Lulu can do print on demand

Dec 01 20:08:07 <Tanada> Imagine Stalin still in Moscow so say 1952, and a Tunguska style impactor hits Warsaw

Dec 01 20:08:24 <Hippy> Yep. Off they'd go

Dec 01 20:08:36 <Alex> BTW I'm veiewing this on my shiny new 40" sony HDTV - very nice

Dec 01 20:09:03 <Hippy> So human history really has been a series of hairs-breadth escapes, just like Nessus said it was

Dec 01 20:09:30 <Hippy> 40 inches? What phenomenal price was that?

Dec 01 20:10:29 <Alex> ~£1200

Dec 01 20:10:57 <Hippy> That's not that bad. I was expecting a lot more than that. Hmmm. . .

Dec 01 20:11:31 <Tanada> YEOWCH that would really hurt, I don;t pay that much for my monthly mortgage payment! Probably half that in terms of dollars!

Dec 01 20:11:57 * Hippy is moving to America RIGHT NOW!

Dec 01 20:12:04 <Dan> I didn't pay that for my last three cars, combined.

Dec 01 20:12:24 <Hippy> Truly the land of opportunity. . .

Dec 01 20:13:14 * Hippy has just heard that Evel Knievel has died, aged 69

Dec 01 20:13:29 <Tanada> LOL, my mortgage is roughly Euro's 650.00 per month

Dec 01 20:15:12 <Hippy> A quick check of my Vista gadget thing confirms that you're slightly worse off than me, by about $US20 a month

Dec 01 20:15:25 <Hippy> Of course, I'm renting, not mortgaging

Dec 01 20:16:04 <Dan> Hmmm, a £ is worhs about 1.6 $ this week...

Dec 01 20:16:11 <Hippy> I should change the topic to '#knownspace: Your Mortgage Comparison Channel'

Dec 01 20:16:34 <Tanada> I am getting a three bedroom house in the old part of town

Dec 01 20:16:56 <Tanada> which might someday be worth more than it was when I bought it SIGH

Dec 01 20:17:04 <Hippy> I'm getting a three bedroom place up the country

Dec 01 20:17:24 <Hippy> Old part of which town?

Dec 01 20:17:52 <Dan> ...So I'm paying roughly £270 a month for a 1200sq.ft. brick house and 1.2 acres of land.

Dec 01 20:17:54 <Tanada> Monroe MI, I live about 2 miles from a war of 1812 battlefield

Dec 01 20:18:28 <Hippy> Oh, that sounds nice. I don't know the US well, but I do know that Maryland beats Nevada

Dec 01 20:18:39 <Tanada> OK Dan now i have to burn you in effigy!

Dec 01 20:19:07 <Tanada> LOL MICHIGAN not MARYLAND

Dec 01 20:19:27 <Hippy> Oops. Thought that was 'L'

Dec 01 20:19:33 <Dan> Well, I do live about 12 kilometers from the nearest town, and twice that from the nearest city.

Dec 01 20:19:49 <Hippy> And 45 mins walk from the shops. Egad

Dec 01 20:20:01 * Hippy thinks he won't jump the Pacific just yet

Dec 01 20:20:21 <Dan> 45 minutes walt from a gas station with a little convenience storr attached.

Dec 01 20:20:55 <Hippy> And your own well for water. . .hmm. Just call me a suburban boy. .

Dec 01 20:21:42 <Dan> The water here as more than a little iron in it, but look on the bright side - I'm saving a fortune on Geritol! :)

Dec 01 20:21:43 <Tanada> I can walk 4 blocks one way, or cross over a block and walk 4 blocks east to go to a conveinince store or a small grocer

Dec 01 20:22:43 <Hippy> I live about 1000 yds from a grocer but that's as the crow flies. If the crow had to walk up hill and down dale it would be about 15 million yards

Dec 01 20:22:43 <Tanada> or I can go 5 blocks due north to the river, then float downstream a mile or so to the battlefield

Dec 01 20:22:57 <Dan> Oh, I've lived in the nearby city, paying roughly as much in rent as I am now on my mortgage.

Dec 01 20:23:17 <Hippy> We should get a description from Euan, as well.

Dec 01 20:23:32 <Hippy> Just to see everyone's lifestyles. . .

Dec 01 20:24:12 <Tanada> Well Gents (and any ladies present) my wife just called, she is not enjoying her drive home in an ice storm so I must go and make ready for her arrival

Dec 01 20:24:12 <Dan> On the other hand, I can sit in my back yard, drink a beer, and watch deer walk past me about 5 meters away.

Dec 01 20:24:31 <Dan> Bye Tananda.

Dec 01 20:24:36 <Hippy> 'Bye Tanada

Dec 01 20:24:43 <Tanada> C'Ya all next month, I hope

Dec 01 20:24:54 <Hippy> Dan, you have the Clifford D Simak lifestyle down pat

Dec 01 20:25:06 * Tanada has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Dec 01 20:25:20 <Hippy> Next year. Has it been that long?

Dec 01 20:25:41 <Dan> LOL! I love being out here in the sticks, but 20 munutes driving time puts me in the heart of dwntown Athens.

Dec 01 20:28:06 <Dan> Clifford D. Simak? Unfair comparison, I don't put *nearly* as much sex in my stories as he did his.

Dec 01 20:28:11 <Dan> :)

Dec 01 20:28:26 <Hippy> What?!

Dec 01 20:28:44 <growler> description of what?

Dec 01 20:28:45 <Hippy> I have clearly been reading the wrong stories or poorly defining 'sex'

Dec 01 20:28:54 <Hippy> Where you live, Euan

Dec 01 20:29:08 <growler> Christchurch New Zealand, the Garden City.

Dec 01 20:29:40 <Hippy> We were just comparing mortgages because they turn up so rarely in Niven stories

Dec 01 20:30:03 <Hippy> Not one mention of a mortgage in 44 years of writing

Dec 01 20:30:04 <growler> On the Pacfic Coast we've got 100 kilometers of beach, a long extinct volcanic penninsula with hills up to 5,5000 feet and the caldera is our port (accessed by tunel)

Dec 01 20:30:33 <growler> Famous for being more Britsih than britain (wihch isn't really true) we have a river Avon that people punt on

Dec 01 20:31:05 <growler> The southern alps (great for skiing and tramping) are a hundred clicks to the west

Dec 01 20:31:32 <growler> The best city in the world for amateur golfers - we've some 50 courses within an hours drive that cost about $10 to play on

Dec 01 20:31:49 <Hippy> Yes, but what about your actual house? I imagined you to be living on a farm because I assume all New Zealanders live on a farm

Dec 01 20:32:08 <growler> The most expsnive proerties are iethero n the hills opverlooking the city or in the older heavily gardened central suburbs

Dec 01 20:32:48 <Hippy> Much the same in Melbourne

Dec 01 20:33:27 <Hippy> Although the gardens are disappearing due to the drought and to a greater the passion to cram as many flats as possible per square foot

Dec 01 20:33:37 <growler> My house is in the suburb of Riccarton, ten minutes walk from the biggest mall in this part of the world, and ten minutes walk from catnerbury university. Five minutes in the other direction to a bakery, vegetable and some other stores.

Dec 01 20:33:42 <growler> I'm surrounded by student housing

Dec 01 20:34:11 <Hippy> It sounds very convenient, though

Dec 01 20:34:12 <growler> But not quite so much as I used to be - with the rise in housing costs families are starting to buy what was student accommodation

Dec 01 20:34:42 <Alex> OK time to go - seeya

Dec 01 20:34:47 * Alex has quit ()

Dec 01 20:34:49 <Hippy> Is there any country in the world where housing costs aren't going up?

Dec 01 20:34:57 <growler> I can get anywhere in the city quickly from here- I have very convenient access to main thoroughfares, but that's generally true of anyhwerei n ChCh. Our greatest claim to fame is probably infrastructure that just works.

Dec 01 20:35:16 <growler> Cleanest water in the world too.

Dec 01 20:35:38 <Hippy> That would make a change from here

Dec 01 20:36:24 <growler> My house is a three bedroom ex-statehouse on 900 square meters of property. Current valuation ~ USD$ 280, 000

Dec 01 20:37:03 <growler> Ex-statehouse means it was built as part of a governmnet project in the thirites to mass produce affordable housing. Very well built brick. Extremely low maintenance.

Dec 01 20:37:31 <growler> Only downside is the bedrooms are a bit small

Dec 01 20:37:48 <growler> My garage could accommodate about four cars if it wasn[t full of junk

Dec 01 20:38:07 <growler> Hang on, you can get a look on google maps...

Dec 01 20:38:24 <growler> You can see my hammock on this I think...

Dec 01 20:39:01 <Hippy> Interesting. I'm moving to a 1940's brick place in a few weeks and I noticed that the bedrooms are quite large by modern standards. Have NZ bedrooms got larger over the years?

Dec 01 20:42:03 <growler> I don't tihnk so, except in very modern homes which have a lot more luxury (en-suites, walk in closets etc)

Dec 01 20:42:49 <Hippy> Yeah, and no backyards at all

Dec 01 20:43:15 <growler> I think it's more a refelction of the bulders wealth - my home was built as part of a prject ot build affordable homes so it is in general about a meter smaller in both dimensions than would have been nice

Dec 01 20:43:49 <growler> This...

Dec 01 20:43:50 <growler>,+Canterbury,+New+Zealand&ie=UTF8&lr=lang_en&cd=1&geocode=0,-43.531637,172.636645&ll=-43.536041,172.588255&spn=0.003535,0.008454&t=h&z=18&iwloc=addr&om=1

Dec 01 20:43:59 <growler> google maps picture of my place

Dec 01 20:44:42 <Hippy> A nice looking city, alright

Dec 01 20:45:34 <Hippy> And here's my new one:,+Lake+Wendouree+AU&sll=-43.536043,172.588257&sspn=0.002777,0.004989&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1

Dec 01 20:45:34 <growler> In the center of the screen is a bunch of trees adjacent to a horizontal street. They're my trees, my house is thec square roofed one. The silver bit above andl eft of it is my garage.

Dec 01 20:47:11 <growler> My neighbourhood is actually one of the less gardened green parts of the city

Dec 01 20:47:11 <Hippy> Very nice. Mine is the tiled roof two houses North of Duncan St if you have the hybrid view on

Dec 01 20:48:17 <growler> looks a little dusty, feeling the drought?

Dec 01 20:48:33 <Hippy> Yes, sadly

Dec 01 20:48:55 <Hippy> And up there they're relatively well of for water (it's NW of Melbourne)

Dec 01 20:49:22 <Dan> I've looked at my place on Google maps... All I can see of it is about 12 pixels in a tiny rectangle that must be my roof. And that's with the closest view Google offered.

Dec 01 20:49:53 <Hippy> Google Earth is a bit better for close views

Dec 01 20:50:10 <growler> you're nice and close for mucking about on boats

Dec 01 20:50:38 <Hippy> Yep! But nearly a mile from the pub :(

Dec 01 20:54:45 <Hippy> Looks like Dan, you and I are the only active people here. I mean, you know, looking at the screen

Dec 01 20:54:52 <growler> gotta go help my parents get back online, ta ta

Dec 01 20:54:55 * growler has quit ()

Dec 01 20:55:15 <Hippy> Hmm. That was well-timed :)

Dec 01 20:55:42 <Hippy> Yes, nearly 1:00PM here, too Perhaps it's time to head off

Dec 01 20:55:43 <Dan> LOL!

Dec 01 20:55:57 <Dan> Have a great afternoon, Hippy.

Dec 01 20:56:13 <Hippy> Have a great evening, Dan and I hope the arm gets better

Dec 01 20:56:25 <Dan> My wife wants me to start paying attention to her instead of this screen. LOL!

Dec 01 20:56:28 <Hippy> And a good evening to everyone else

Dec 01 20:56:44 <Hippy> Wives are so. . .I suppose they have their uses :)

Dec 01 20:56:59 <Hippy> My regards to your lady wife, too

Dec 01 20:57:04 <Dan> Indeed, I intend to put mine to it later on tonight.

Dec 01 20:57:23 <Hippy> Ah. .. well, yes, TMI and all that

Dec 01 20:57:25 <Dan> Her intentions may be less honorable, though.

Dec 01 20:57:39 <Hippy> LOL!

Dec 01 20:57:56 <Hippy> Tell her you're carrying an injury

Dec 01 20:58:05 <Dan> I may have to hang some pictures or help her move some furneture or omething.

Dec 01 20:58:23 <Hippy> Nice of her to spare you the heavy stuff

Dec 01 20:58:50 <Dan> Oh, I've still got *one* good arm, I can lift one end of the couch.

Dec 01 20:59:21 <Hippy> No rest at all :(

Dec 01 20:59:39 <Hippy> Anyway, time to adjourn and check the emails

Dec 01 20:59:51 <Hippy> Good night to everyone for whom it is night

Dec 01 21:00:02 <Hippy> Which I think covers everybody

Dec 01 21:00:08 * Hippy has quit ()

Dec 01 21:00:11 <Dan> Oh, she run out of steam in an hour or so and go to bed. I'll be up half the night watching TV or some movies in my computer.

Dec 01 21:00:47 <Dan> I swear I made fewer typos when I still had one arm in that sling.

Dec 01 21:08:26 <Dan> Goodnight and have a great month!

Dec 01 21:08:32 * Dan has quit ()

Dec 01 22:40:40 * chief_strike_anywhere has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Dec 01 23:12:52 <SeanS> fred, i guess the java update fixed the applet problem

Dec 02 00:43:42 <Fred> it actually gave me the java logo after like an hour of trying

Dec 02 00:45:09 <Fred> it's still trying to log on