Chat Log: August 6th, 2011

[13:54] NickE has joined #knownspace
[13:55] #knownspace> NickE: evenin. Just about to eat, back on in a bit
[14:16] Dan has joined #knownspace
[14:16] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Dan!
[14:16] #knownspace> Dan: A little early, buy at least I remembered this month's chat.
[14:17] #knownspace> NickE: How was Pompey?
[14:17] #knownspace> Dan: Lovely! So was Bristol, and Wick, and Heathrow.
[14:18] #knownspace> Dan: The Atlanta airport was its usuall PITA. But we survived the security nonsense.
[14:19] #knownspace> NickE: Lived in Bristol too for a bit - not the nice bit tho
[14:19] #knownspace> NickE: oh goodness yes - arriving for Dragon Con last year was an experience
[14:20] #knownspace> Dan: We've got friends there that have a apartment up on the 8th floor of a highrise. You can see the estate where the balloon racers start from their living room windows.
[14:21] #knownspace> NickE: neat
[14:21] #knownspace> Dan: And that beautiful bridge can be seen from their kitchen windows.
[14:22] #knownspace> NickE: Clifton is the nice bit of Bris :-)
[14:22] #knownspace> Dan: They're in Ashton, as I recall.
[14:22] #knownspace> NickE: Looks good from a distance too
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: Well, that whole west side is rather nicer than the eastern bits
[14:24] #knownspace> NickE: The surroundig area is OK and Bath is lovely
[14:26] #knownspace> Dan: I loved what I got to see of the High Street area. Oh, and we got to go to Guildford, too. One of our Ripperologist friends manages the tours of the castle, & does a ghost tour of the town. He also does some acting & occasional Ripper Walk tours in London's East End.
[14:26] #knownspace> NickE: cool, if creepy :-)
[14:26] #knownspace> Dan: Met up with one of my wife's brothers in Glastonbury for an afternoon, as well.
[14:27] #knownspace> NickE: Glasto is nice although way too much of the crystal heaing type boutiques for my liking
[14:28] #knownspace> NickE: never been to the festival - done enough muddy camping for one lifetime
[14:29] #knownspace> Dan: That's its theme, but I find it no more unpleasant as the same sort of place in Cherokee North Carolina's Amerind theme.
[14:30] #knownspace> NickE: I guess. Its all for the tourists of course :-)
[14:30] #knownspace> NickE: The view from teh Tor is pretty good though
[14:31] #knownspace> Dan: Of course! Everyone has a right to attempt to make a living.
[14:31] #knownspace> NickE: aue
[14:31] #knownspace> NickE: aye
[14:36] Fred_the_Exile has joined #knownspace
[14:37] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Howdy hi, boys and girls
[14:38] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Fred
[14:38] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya, Fred.
[14:39] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Saw your Facebook mention, Dan, thanks!
[14:40] #knownspace> Dan: Not a problem.
[14:40] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: I check iCal every weekday but tend to blow it off on Saturnsday
[14:42] Jim has joined #knownspace
[14:43] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya, Jim.
[14:43] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: What Dan said
[14:43] #knownspace> Jim: hi, good thing that I saw that announcement on facebook
[14:43] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: heh
[14:44] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: What Jim said
[14:44] #knownspace> Dan: I try. :)
[14:45] #knownspace> Dan: Time for a beer, methinks...
[14:45] Hippy has joined #knownspace
[14:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Morning, everyone
[14:45] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Hey Hippy
[14:46] #knownspace> Hippy: G'day, Fred. What's prompted your new status?
[14:46] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: I haven't been on the Niven list in months
[14:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah.
[14:46] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Nice to see I'm missed :)
[14:47] #knownspace> Hippy: I really should read it more avidly
[14:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Hmm. No topic. . .
[14:48] #knownspace> Dan: Could we stick to one?
[14:48] #knownspace> Dan: :)
[14:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Unlikely. And how'a Georgia this fine (winter's) morning?
[14:49] #knownspace> Dan: Hot enough to boil water, if I were to put a pot of water inside my car.
[14:50] #knownspace> Dan: It wasn't too bad this morning, but by noon the temp was back up to "scorch".
[14:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, it's delightuflly chilly down here. No snow, though. Another Winter almost gone and no snow. . .
[14:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Now, see how we couldn't have this conversation on the Ringworld?
[14:51] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, hang on, we could. . .altitude makes up for no seasons
[14:51] #knownspace> Dan: We've been having regular afternoon thunderstorms this week. Just enough to drive the humidity up right before sunset.
[14:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Yuck (if you don't mind my saying so)
[14:53] #knownspace> Dan: Indeed, yuck. We had to put an awning up in the cap pen to give them additional shade & allow the door to their shed to stay open for ventalation.
[14:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yes. It would be horrible for something furry
[14:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Meanwhile, in Arizona. . .?
[14:54] #knownspace> Dan: Indeed. The good news is that it worked.
[14:55] #knownspace> Dan: They love the extra shade, and when I went out to feed them this morning the shed was cool & dry inside.
[14:55] #knownspace> Hippy: I must say I do look forward to being in Florida in three weeks. I might hate the humidity but I love a good thunderatorm and we get very few of those here
[14:56] #knownspace> Dan: Depending on where in Florida, you might get an hour-long rain every day. Around Disney World, it's roughly 4 PM every day.
[14:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Orlando is indeed where I'll be. I'll set my watch by it :)
[14:58] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: In Arizona it's so hot that I burned my feet yesterday on the cool deck
[14:59] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: And the pool itelf was well above skin temperature
[14:59] #knownspace> Dan: I used to vacation in Daytona. Haven't been thee with the current wife, though.
[14:59] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Which is not refreshing ...
[15:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Indeed not, Fred. That sounds like a major owie
[15:00] #knownspace> Hippy: And what about West Virginia?
[15:01] #knownspace> Hippy: And Blackburn or Oswaldtwistle (if I recall correctly)?
[15:01] #knownspace> Dan: Our little above-ground pool sometimes gets that warm, nut only for a week or two in the hotest part of our Summers.
[15:02] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: This was above skin but below spa temp. Call it 100
[15:02] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Just felt stupid swimming in it
[15:02] #knownspace> Dan: Well, as I recall, there aren't any hurricanes building up at the moment. You might just have great weather for your trip.
[15:03] #knownspace> Hippy: It's the hurricanes I'm after. Inland and high up thjere's no extremes of weather at all.
[15:03] #knownspace> Hippy: It's 40F and dead still here
[15:05] #knownspace> Dan: 98F outdoors here, but the AC is keeping it about 78F indoors. I had to turn the temp up on the kitchen unit. My wife had it set on 73F and condensation was dripping indoors 'cause the overflow from the drip pan was faster than the water could escape.
[15:06] dmac44 has joined #knownspace
[15:06] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi guys.
[15:06] #knownspace> SeanS: hi guyas
[15:06] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya!
[15:06] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi dmac, Sean
[15:06] #knownspace> SeanS: just saying high... cooler packed and I am heading over the hill to hang on the beach
[15:06] #knownspace> SeanS: hi
[15:07] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: That'll happen here. The exposed pipes coming out of the outdoor unit will cake with ice
[15:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Sounds like a great life, Sean
[15:07] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Nice, Sean
[15:07] Jim has joined #knownspace
[15:07] #knownspace> Jim: WV has had T-storms today
[15:07] #knownspace> Dan: I bet Kentucky feels nice, with the breeze off of the river right there at Sean's house.
[15:08] #knownspace> Hippy: So it sounds pretty humid across the south
[15:08] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, the continental US is certainly turbulent today
[15:09] Larry has joined #knownspace
[15:09] #knownspace> Dan: We've got friends near Huntsvillle, Alabama who are hosting a birthday party today. Not too far from Steve Sloan, matter of fact.
[15:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Larry
[15:09] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Larry
[15:09] #knownspace> Jim: Larry!
[15:09] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Larry!W
[15:09] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Sean
[15:09] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya, Larry!
[15:09] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: elcome
[15:09] #knownspace> NickE: and all
[15:09] #knownspace> Larry: Hi, everyone.
[15:10] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi Larry
[15:10] #knownspace> Jim: What is the topic?
[15:10] #knownspace> NickE: weather :-)
[15:10] #knownspace> Hippy: The weather at the moment :)
[15:10] #knownspace> Dan: Well, to continue with the current topic - How's the weather where you're at, Larry?
[15:10] #knownspace> Dan: :)
[15:10] #knownspace> Larry: THE BOWL OF HEAVEN is in semifinal draft, waiting for Hartwell's reaction.
[15:11] #knownspace> NickE: oh cool
[15:11] #knownspace> Hippy: Excellent!
[15:11] #knownspace> Jim: Who are the authors for THE BOWL OF HEAVEN?
[15:11] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: I'm not familar wiith that one? Is it part of a series?
[15:11] #knownspace> Larry: Weather is warm, but not intolerable. I hiked to the "Viewpoint", an hour's walk, a few minutes ago.
[15:12] #knownspace> Larry: THE BOWL OF HEAVEN is a collaboration with Gregory Benford, the first of two volumes.
[15:12] #knownspace> Jim: How is Gregory Benford doing these days?
[15:13] #knownspace> Dan: Writer question: Larry, does the attack of nerves after a manuscript is submitted ever go away? How many successful submissions does it take before a writer don't get butterflys while the publisher is considering a submission?
[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: didn't realise it was a 2 parter
[15:13] #knownspace> Jim: Was there a temptation to call it the WOK OF HEAVEN?
[15:13] #knownspace> Larry: Wokworld, yes. Also Cupworld.
[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: wok world was the working title as I recall
[15:14] #knownspace> Hippy: If you called it that it would seem like a 'Ringworld' parody
[15:14] #knownspace> Dan: I remember discussions on the List when you were first cntemplating the idea.
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: me too
[15:15] #knownspace> Larry: Nerves...I'm actually calmer, knowing we have a workable ending. Screw the editor, he can only improve it.
[15:15] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:16] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, now that reminds me. . .editorial improvement. . .and 'Escape from Hell'
[15:16] #knownspace> Hippy: The story of 'The Wuss' seemed to disappear
[15:16] #knownspace> Hippy: I was looking forward to finding out about him
[15:17] #knownspace> Dan: Thanks to Stephanie Osborne, I have a MS on a publisher's desk now. It's been less than two weeks, and I'm still a bundle of nerves waiting for the Accept/Reject notice. LOL!
[15:17] #knownspace> NickE: fingers crossed Dan
[15:17] #knownspace> dmac44: Dan: Good luck
[15:17] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes. Let them know you have guaranteed sales
[15:17] #knownspace> Larry: Remind me re "Escape From Hell". What editorial improvement? Oh, the Wuss. Hee hee hee.
[15:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Dr Pournelle said we were going to find out more about why he's called that. And then. . .no more information
[15:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Also, touching lihglty on some other minor pooint of something you wrote years ago. . .:)
[15:19] #knownspace> Hippy: It seemed to me that the editor had deleted his backstory
[15:19] #knownspace> Larry: During a hill climb, Jerry said, "I need a name for a demon." I said, "The Wuss." He called me a madman.
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[15:20] #knownspace> Hippy: So 'The Wuss' has no backstory?
[15:20] #knownspace> Larry: Sometimes there's no backstory. But I gave the Wuss one, I just don't remember it.
[15:21] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh :(
[15:21] #knownspace> Larry: But wasn't he the one who would dive into molten tar?
[15:21] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yes, the other demons pushed him around alright
[15:22] #knownspace> Dan: (Clouding up to rain yet again. If I vanish, it'll be 'cause my connection got flooded, LOL!)
[15:22] #knownspace> Hippy: Now, that's rainy
[15:23] #knownspace> Dan: Local phone company for an ISP. They can't afford to keep their junction boxes weatherproofed.
[15:23] #knownspace> Hippy: I did like the icecream stand, though. Very nice to see that helpful priest get a good reward for helping Carpener out
[15:24] #knownspace> Hippy: Whoe else has read 'Escape from Hell'?
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: yep. Been a while
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: liked it a lot
[15:24] #knownspace> dmac44: same here
[15:24] #knownspace> Hippy: It had a lovely ending
[15:25] #knownspace> Hippy: So apt that a sceince fiction writer gets to see the stars
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: indeed
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[15:26] #knownspace> Hippy: And the opportunity to give all these people their just desserts
[15:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Peter Lawford was a surprise guest
[15:28] #knownspace> Larry: We passed an ice cream stand driving back from Chaco Canyon. We swore we would put an ice cream stand in Hell.
[15:29] #knownspace> Dan: LOL!
[15:30] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, it was a nice bit of the book
[15:31] #knownspace> Hippy: One interesting thing is the idea that people can be retried after Minos sees them. New doctrine gts made by the Churhc and so people need to be re-alocated
[15:33] #knownspace> Dan: I like that concept.
[15:33] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah. Jerry was fascinated by the implications of Vatican 2 (which allows nonCatholics into Heaven.)
[15:38] #knownspace> Hippy: And the idea that the Church attemtpts to find the truth, so that as its doctriens change they are getting closer to the truth.
[15:38] #knownspace> Larry: Where did everybody go?
[15:38] #knownspace> Dan: Still here.
[15:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes. I think they want to know more about 'Bowl of Heaven'
[15:38] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Here!
[15:38] #knownspace> Dan: Rain is stopping, but thunder starting. :)
[15:39] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry can you say whether 'Bowl" is set in the near or far future?
[15:39] #knownspace> Larry: Oh, there you are, Hippy. Yeah, that doctrine seems to make all kinds of sense--as opposed to "Ex cathedra" being absolute truth.
[15:40] #knownspace> Larry: "Bowl" is far future: Bussard ramjets, terraformed Earth, etc.
[15:40] #knownspace> Hippy: If 'ex cathedra' were, Hell would change constantly. People would be being shifted around or moved out as their sins stopped being sins
[15:40] #knownspace> Dan: I popped out to check the Weather Channel website. Looks like a huge storm heading this way from Chattanooga. Probably 6 hours off. One more little rain cell nearby, which I assume is generating the thunder I hear.
[15:41] #knownspace> dmac44: An indeterminate hell.
[15:41] #knownspace> dmac44: quantum like.
[15:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, how about this: 'Soon it will be a sin to inflcit a child with the heavy burden of genetic disease'. There's one for that empty space where Albert Camus was
[15:42] #knownspace> Dan: How does one measure a Quantum of Hell? :)
[15:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Or are there 'infernons'?
[15:42] #knownspace> dmac44: lol
[15:42] #knownspace> Larry: I toy with the notion of an indeterminate universe. God listens to our notions and uses the good ones.
[15:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Particles of Hell that dirft around affecting local conditions
[15:43] #knownspace> dmac44: but he has a sense of humor
[15:43] #knownspace> Larry: Purgatory is recent. Quantum theory is still being settled.
[15:44] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, speaking of Purgatory. . .there's a sequel. Dante thought so, anyway :)
[15:44] #knownspace> Dan: "Infernons" might make romance a little easier to understand as a process in flux.
[15:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Say on, Dan
[15:45] #knownspace> Jim: Was Albert Camus removed from hell when conservatives (American Spectator specifically) started to read his writings?
[15:46] #knownspace> Larry: Jim: I'd say no.
[15:47] #knownspace> Jim: LOL
[15:47] #knownspace> Dan: Hippy, a romance can seem like a bi-polar rollercoaster ride to the folks in the relationship. Infernons affecting the state of the "swing" sort of makes sense to me.
[15:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, I see
[15:48] #knownspace> Jim: Dan, if romance corresponds to bi-polar disorder, then what does swinging correspond to?
[15:48] #knownspace> Hippy: If infernons cluster together under their own gravitational attraction, or nuclear force, it would explain my old job
[15:48] #knownspace> Larry: I just called Jerry. Maybe we'll get him on.
[15:49] #knownspace> Hippy: That would be great!!
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: that would be great
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: jinx
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[15:49] #knownspace> Jim: Yes, that would be good.
[15:49] #knownspace> dmac44: I'd like to hear more of his take on Vatican 2
[15:49] #knownspace> Jim: me too
[15:49] #knownspace> dmac44: hippy
[15:49] #knownspace> Jim: Hippy
[15:50] #knownspace> Dan: Jim, I can't speculate on Swinging as a lifestyle. My wife & I aren't built that way, so I lack references to understand it.
[15:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Thank you :)
[15:50] #knownspace> Jim: Dan, that was a poor attempt at humor.
[15:50] #knownspace> Larry: I've known some swingers. Mostly they break up. One couple turned monogamous instead.
[15:51] #knownspace> dmac44: so swining is an ustable state?
[15:51] #knownspace> dmac44: unstable
[15:51] #knownspace> Jim: meta-stable maybe
[15:51] #knownspace> Dan: "Twas no attempt at humor at all. Just a statement of fact. I know people in that lifestyle, but I can't understand its appeal to them. No offence was meant.
[15:51] #knownspace> Jim: Dan, my statement was a poor attempt at humor.
[15:52] #knownspace> Dan: Oh! I misunderstood you. My bad.
[15:52] #knownspace> Hippy: It's just the infernon flux
[15:52] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:52] #knownspace> Hippy: It causes misunderstandings
[15:52] #knownspace> NickE: good name that
[15:53] #knownspace> Hippy: Thank you. I wradked my brain for seconds to put an 'n' on
[15:53] #knownspace> dmac44: two infernons walk into a bar .....
[15:53] #knownspace> NickE: LOL
[15:53] #knownspace> Larry: Lecture me on infernons.
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, they're particles of Hell that dirft around the universe creating bad things
[15:54] #knownspace> Dan: "Flux this," they said to one another. "Let's go down to Sean's..."
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Possibly affected by gravity and nuclear bonds
[15:54] #knownspace> dmac44: for universal balance there would need to something the opposite of inferons I would think.
[15:55] #knownspace> Hippy: Paradons
[15:55] #knownspace> NickE: well positrons is taken :-)
[15:55] #knownspace> Dan: So they're a form of negative energy?
[15:55] #knownspace> NickE: Dark energy?
[15:55] Jerry has joined #knownspace
[15:55] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi Jerry
[15:55] #knownspace> Hippy: They have some kind of charge. Paradon meets infernon and they annihilate
[15:55] #knownspace> Jerry: Hello?
[15:55] #knownspace> Dan: Caotic energy?
[15:55] #knownspace> NickE: Welcome Jerry
[15:55] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Jerry!
[15:55] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya, Jerry! Long time, no see!
[15:55] #knownspace> Hippy: Congratulations on having 'Byte' back!
[15:56] #knownspace> Jim: Jerry, we had some questions about Vatican II.
[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: so quantum evil or quantum hell...and is there a difference?
[15:56] #knownspace> Larry: Hi, Jerry. They're lecturing on "Infernons", but they were curious about Vatican 2 and its effect on ESCAPE.
[15:56] #knownspace> Jerry: Well I am mor elikely to know about Vatican II than Known Space
[15:57] #knownspace> Dan: Looking forward to next year's LibertyCon in Chattanooga, Larry & Jerry. I've told the List that you two are signed up as GOHs.
[15:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, that is worth a plane trip!
[15:57] #knownspace> Hippy: And of course I'll have to come by train. . .
[15:57] #knownspace> dmac44: lol
[15:58] #knownspace> NickE: I need to win teh lottery soooo bad :-)
[15:58] #knownspace> Jerry: It's track 29
[15:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Jerry, we were wondering about he idea that as the church adopts new catechisms, Hell changes
[15:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Yay, Jerry!!
[15:58] #knownspace> Larry: That had slipped my mind, but no doubt it's in my calendar.
[15:58] Akiraa has joined #knownspace
[15:58] #knownspace> Hippy: At last someone responds to my Glenn Miller references!!
[15:58] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:59] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Akiraa
[15:59] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! Now Swing *music* is something that I do understand!
[15:59] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Akiraa
[15:59] #knownspace> Akiraa: hello
[15:59] #knownspace> Akiraa: apparently, the great sand islands in Dubai are sinking back into the sea
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: an infernon the opposite of the God particle?
[16:00] #knownspace> Jerry: The major premise of ESCAPE was that the doctrine of Co-Creation, which was pretty well endorced in and since Vatican II, is real, and has implications beyond what was imagined
[16:00] #knownspace> dmac44: what implications?
[16:01] #knownspace> Jerry: I thought that was the question asked.
[16:01] #knownspace> Hippy: I see. So as Man remakes the cosmos in his image, Hell changes to accommodate that
[16:01] #knownspace> Jerry: Co-Creaton of everything. The Universe. The Universe somehow includes Hell.
[16:02] #knownspace> Hippy: So, for example, Hell is now crammed with speeding drivers and people who cheat on their taxes
[16:02] #knownspace> Larry: I alleged Purgatorio is recent, quantum physics is unsettled.
[16:02] #knownspace> Hippy: But as we change our defintions of sin, people need to be rrtried?
[16:03] #knownspace> Hippy: So, why are people now allowed to explode?
[16:04] #knownspace> Jerry: depends on the intent, doesn't it? I had not heard that underpayment of taxes was a mortal sin. We don't really get to make the most fundamental determinations. In a universe that includes God, sin is more than just something you don't cvare for.
[16:04] #knownspace> Dan: Nice idea!
[16:04] #knownspace> Hippy: I had thought the latest catechism included tax evasion as a sin. I could be wrong, though
[16:05] #knownspace> Akiraa: tax evasion a sin?
[16:05] CrazyEddy has joined #knownspace
[16:05] #knownspace> Jerry: As to exploding, come now, it makes a good story: but it is an appropriate punishment for someone whose major accomplishment in life was to blow himself up to harm someone else. Surely.
[16:05] #knownspace> Akiraa: then so is breathing
[16:05] #knownspace> Akiraa: every time you receive cash and don't declare it, you are evading
[16:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: not only that, by declaring it, you are opening yourself up to a host of regulations
[16:06] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, how about this? Climate Change scepticism seems an increasingly sinful thing to do. Our former Prime Minister regarded it as the moral question of the 21st century
[16:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: i.e. the very receiving cash for that particular service may have been illegal
[16:06] #knownspace> Dan: But only if the cash you were given is above the legal limit?
[16:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: like not having a license
[16:07] #knownspace> Hippy: The explosions were a good part of the story, and very apt for Oppenheimer
[16:07] #knownspace> Akiraa: that's another argument against surveillance, so many things are illegal you never know exactly
[16:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: declaring it is often tantamount to admitting to a crime, so not worth it
[16:08] #knownspace> Jerry: Well, what establishes the truth of the manmade Climate Change hypothesis? Is it more compelling than the protocols of the learned elders of Zion? Learned Elder Denial was a prtty big sin in time times and places
[16:08] #knownspace> Hippy: I may not be remembering exactly. It was the latest catechism. Not that Presbyterians such as myself take this seriously :)
[16:09] #knownspace> Hippy: So, if such denials are sinful, or seen as such, does Hell alter to take that into account?
[16:09] #knownspace> Dan: What distinguishes "truth" from "Truth?"
[16:09] #knownspace> Hippy: The shift key
[16:09] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:09] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! Touche'.
[16:09] #knownspace> dmac44: lol
[16:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Heh heh heh
[16:10] #knownspace> Dan: I meant it as a serious question, but cest la vie.
[16:11] #knownspace> Jerry: What does it mean to take something seriously? You are like evreyone else enjoined to respect the powers that be. We are also enjoined to resist tyrants but only under certain sircumstances.
[16:11] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, the church seeks to find the Truth, not define it. As it issues new catechism, presumably it gets closer to the real Truth
[16:12] #knownspace> Larry: truth from Truth is determined by intent. Are you just trying to win an argument, or to settle something forever?
[16:12] #knownspace> Hippy: Escape had a much better way of phrasing that
[16:12] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, the latter in the case of Hell, I hope
[16:12] #knownspace> Jerry: What distinguishes truth from Truth? Clearly in ESCAPE it is the command of God. Without God Man is the measure of all things. Of course, as Socrates pointed out, to say that leaves you open to the alternative that the dog-faced baboon is the measure of all things.
[16:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, to another baboon. . .
[16:13] EML has joined #knownspace
[16:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Ed!
[16:13] #knownspace> Larry: Hi, Ed!
[16:13] #knownspace> EML: Hi folks!
[16:13] #knownspace> Dan: So, to a person of Faith, there are many "truths" but only a single overarching "Truth" - relative to their own fath, as it were?
[16:13] #knownspace> NickE: Full house! Hi Ed
[16:13] #knownspace> dmac44: hi Ed
[16:13] #knownspace> Jerry: Anyway I am going to have to get some work done. Other wuesiotns on ESCAPE?
[16:14] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya Ed! I finally see you and Larry in the room at the same time.
[16:14] #knownspace> Jim: Seeya
[16:14] #knownspace> Jim: Ed!
[16:14] #knownspace> NickE: ah we'ev seen it
[16:14] #knownspace> Hippy: I can't think of any, Jerry
[16:14] #knownspace> Dan: No more questions, Jerry. But thanks for being here today!
[16:14] #knownspace> NickE: just want to say that we enjoyed it
[16:15] #knownspace> Hippy: I sure did
[16:15] #knownspace> EML: Jerry Pournelle?
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: oh yeah
[16:15] #knownspace> Dan: Indeed.
[16:15] #knownspace> EML: I have impeccable timing.
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: indeed
[16:15] #knownspace> Jerry: I thought your timing was peccable, myself
[16:16] #knownspace> EML: or just peckish?
[16:16] #knownspace> Dan: Jerry, my wife is having a fan-girl squee moment & sends her compliments.
[16:16] #knownspace> Larry: Jerry, I'll call later re Anvil.
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: hoo boy!
[16:16] #knownspace> Jerry: People with peccable timing often live in houses with permeable roofs
[16:16] #knownspace> Hippy: Anvil? Anvil???
[16:16] #knownspace> Jerry: Bye
[16:16] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Bye
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: bye Jery
[16:17] #knownspace> dmac44: bye Jerry
[16:17] #knownspace> Dan: Bye, Jerry!
[16:17] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Bye
[16:17] #knownspace> Hippy: That was damn good fun!
[16:17] #knownspace> NickE: LH sequel methinks
[16:17] #knownspace> EML: when I leave you alone Larry, you just get ijnto new mischief.
[16:17] #knownspace> NickE: ?
[16:17] #knownspace> Dan: He is good at that, Ed.
[16:18] #knownspace> Larry: Collaborations happen. I need to learn to say No.
[16:18] #knownspace> NickE: nah, you don't want to do that :-)
[16:19] #knownspace> EML: So what's Escape?
[16:20] #knownspace> NickE: on the beer (surprise surprise ;-)
[16:20] #knownspace> NickE: Escape From Hell - Inferno sequel
[16:22] #knownspace> Dan: Larry, don't you *dare!* As good as your solo work is, there are times when colaborations are the only way for a good story to be written!
[16:22] #knownspace> EML: ah, I was thinking (for whatever reason) it might refer to something new. E from H I know.
[16:23] #knownspace> Hippy: So, have we thrashed 'infernons' to death?
[16:23] #knownspace> dmac44: they could be part of the dark energy.
[16:23] #knownspace> Dan: Probably not. I suggest we bring that to the List and see what the non-chatting friends make of the concept.
[16:24] #knownspace> NickE: that would be my guess for a nice twist
[16:24] #knownspace> Hippy: Sounds like a plan
[16:24] #knownspace> Dan: "Infernons put the Dark in dark energy!" LOL!
[16:24] #knownspace> NickE: make a chage from all teh bloody politics!
[16:24] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL!
[16:24] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:24] #knownspace> dmac44: Ah but a man's paranons should exceed his infernons or what's a Heaven for?
[16:25] #knownspace> Dan: Oh yeah. I do get bored with the endless political debates.
[16:25] #knownspace> Hippy: Presumably there are paradons floating around. Clusters of paradons create good things
[16:26] #knownspace> Dan: Even though those same debates do occasionally lead me to think.
[16:26] #knownspace> Larry: I like "God particle" as opposite of infernons.
[16:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Incidentally, that gives you an arbitrary way to define good and evil. Good = presence of paradons. Evil = presnce of infernons
[16:26] #knownspace> dmac44: I ment pardons
[16:26] #knownspace> NickE: I've learned not to moan about it as it does no good, but I know damn well if the number of list digests incresce to dozens a day, it's all ruddy politics
[16:27] #knownspace> Hippy: What is a 'God particle'?
[16:27] #knownspace> Dan: dmac, I think "paradons might be a more popular form of that term.
[16:27] #knownspace> dmac44: Higgs.
[16:27] #knownspace> Jim: Which is why I left the list.
[16:27] #knownspace> NickE: paradons may b a better name? imlies paradise?
[16:27] #knownspace> Dan: Exactly!
[16:27] #knownspace> dmac44: paradons, I can't type fast.
[16:28] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, yes. 'Infernon' from 'Inferno', 'paradon' from Paradise
[16:28] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah, Higgs boson. I coudln't remember.
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: Higgs would have to be a characters name in teh book
[16:28] #knownspace> Hippy: No purgatons because, as Larry says, Purgatory is recent
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: (assuming a story evolves from this)
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: doesnt have to, knocking ideas about is fun
[16:29] #knownspace> Larry: The Higgs character turns out to be God.
[16:29] #knownspace> Dan: I think Baen Books already has debates about naming a charactor Higgs. I know that "Girl Genius" has such debates.
[16:29] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh. I thought. . .a 'boson' is a particle? I thought it was 'Higgs-Bozon' as in a collaborative effort
[16:29] #knownspace> NickE: oh I like that
[16:29] #knownspace> dmac44: Another character could be a demon named Maxwel.
[16:29] #knownspace> NickE: well Larry's done that already
[16:30] #knownspace> EML: Isn't Higgs Bozon a shy (but massive) clown?
[16:30] #knownspace> NickE: "Oh Maxwell!"
[16:30] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:30] #knownspace> Hippy: Nice one, Ed
[16:30] #knownspace> Dan: Oh dear... We have Infernons and Paradons, does that mean that Bozons are the fundamental partical of politics? :)
[16:30] #knownspace> NickE: LOL bigtime
[16:31] #knownspace> Akiraa:
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: nah, that would be the bullshitino
[16:31] #knownspace> Hippy: You cynics
[16:31] #knownspace> dmac44: I would refer to thermodynamics for an expalnation of politics.
[16:31] #knownspace> Akiraa: what's some sci fi that treats roaming planets in an interesting way
[16:32] #knownspace> NickE: Eddore was an early one
[16:32] #knownspace> Dan: Doc Smith, year.
[16:32] #knownspace> Dan: year=yeah.
[16:32] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Planet on the Prowl' from the 1960's?
[16:32] #knownspace> NickE: don't know that one
[16:34] #knownspace> Hippy: 1960's Italian movie. An asteroid is going to crash into Earth, but on investigation they discover that intelligence moves the asteroid around to prey on Earth-like planets. Remarkable only because. . .well, no reason
[16:34] #knownspace> Hippy: It probably has another name
[16:34] #knownspace> Dan: Let me remember... Oh, there were also wandering planets in the "Arcot, Wade, & Morey" stories by Campbell.
[16:34] #knownspace> Hippy: I'd look it up on the IMDB but I keep getting redirected to some idiot piece of Bradlley Cooper
[16:35] #knownspace> Hippy: Flash Gordon, of course
[16:36] #knownspace> dmac44: When Worlds Collide by Wylie and Balmer 1932
[16:36] #knownspace> NickE: oh yeah
[16:36] #knownspace> Hippy: How could I forget that?
[16:36] #knownspace> Hippy: Technically. . .Zyra did orbit its own sun
[16:37] #knownspace> EML: Didn't When Worlds Collide have a wandering star (with planets), not a wandering loose planet?
[16:37] #knownspace> NickE: does that predate Lensman?
[16:37] #knownspace> NickE: Teh books that is!
[16:37] #knownspace> Dan: That's right, Ed.
[16:37] #knownspace> Hippy: I don't think so, Nick
[16:38] #knownspace> Dan: I think it's contemporary with them, Nick.
[16:38] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed: I don't think so. They once orbited a star.
[16:38] #knownspace> Larry: "Flatlander". Wandering antimatter sun.
[16:38] #knownspace> NickE: Plus of course artificilly wandering fleets of worlds :-)
[16:38] #knownspace> NickE: bingo
[16:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, yes, with skating rinks on its planet :)
[16:38] #knownspace> NickE: Cueball
[16:38] #knownspace> Dan: "Fleets, don' fail me now!"
[16:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Cannonball Express
[16:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Cueball is Beta Lyrae I
[16:39] #knownspace> NickE: oh yes of course
[16:39] #knownspace> dmac44: But they orbited suns, these are planets out on their own.
[16:39] #knownspace> Akiraa: Would being exceptionally long lives (centuries or more) make one behave like a Puppeteer?
[16:39] #knownspace> Akiraa: i.e. exceptionally cowardly
[16:39] #knownspace> Akiraa: s/lives/lived/
[16:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Intellignetly cautious, Akiraa
[16:40] #knownspace> Dan: Not necessarily, Akiraa.
[16:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: as lifespans increase, the most frequent cause of death would be murder or accidents
[16:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: or suicide
[16:40] #knownspace> Hippy: Or suicide
[16:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: :)
[16:40] #knownspace> Dan: A tendency towards inactivity, perhaps.
[16:40] #knownspace> Hippy: Great minds do think alike
[16:40] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed: As I recall there was a Jovian sized planet and an Earth sized planet.
[16:41] #knownspace> Dan: Bronson Alpha & Beta.
[16:41] #knownspace> dmac44: Right.
[16:41] #knownspace> dmac44: The big one ate the Eart and left behind the smaller one.
[16:41] #knownspace> EML: Doug: if you're referring to WWC, that's more detail than I remember. I don't doubt that you're right, though.
[16:42] #knownspace> dmac44: I was
[16:42] #knownspace> EML: the sequel to When Worlds Collide shoudl have been called ...
[16:42] #knownspace> EML: Splat
[16:42] #knownspace> dmac44: lol
[16:43] #knownspace> NickE: <snort>
[16:43] #knownspace> Jim: After Worlds Collide
[16:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yeah. . .there was one, wasn't there?
[16:43] #knownspace> Jim: According to Wikipedia, AWC was its title.
[16:44] #knownspace> Dan: What was the silly thing that had Venus being spat out of Jupiter's Great Red Spot and lent itself so nicely to the Von Danniken claptrap? Velikofski's "Worlds In Collision"? (Excuse my spelling. Russian isn't my long suit.)
[16:44] #knownspace> Akiraa: I wonder if there'll be a Ringworld's Grandchildren
[16:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, Ed;s the man for that
[16:45] #knownspace> Larry: There will be no Ringworld's Grandchildren.
[16:46] #knownspace> EML: Akiraa: Fate of Worlds (out next year) does pick up after Ringworld's Children
[16:47] #knownspace> NickE: oooh
[16:47] #knownspace> EML: Dan: Cradle of Saturn, by James P. Hogan
[16:47] #knownspace> Akiraa: or a third book in the Motie series
[16:47] #knownspace> Hippy: You can get 'Outies' from Amazon
[16:47] #knownspace> Akiraa: ah, I was not aware
[16:48] #knownspace> Hippy: I should get it myself, as I like the notion of Motie accountancy
[16:48] #knownspace> Dan: Reminds me of a cartoon a friend drew back in college; "Great, Great Grandchildren of Dune - Or Ringworm!" The pic was of a single sandworm biting its tail, and copied the cover of "Ringworld" very closely.
[16:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Jerry Pournelle's daughter wrote it. Not quite a sequel, but an add-on to 'Mote'
[16:48] #knownspace> Larry: Yeah, And it's (Fate) in finalish draft. As for a third Motie, it's called "Outies", by Jerry's daughter Jennifer. Try Amazon.
[16:50] #knownspace> dmac44: Cool!
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: It's an e-book, though
[16:51] #knownspace> Larry: Folk, it is my lunchtime. Fare you all well.
[16:51] #knownspace> Hippy: I don't think it's in print, but I suppose you could always print it out
[16:51] #knownspace> Dan: Bye, Larry!
[16:51] #knownspace> dmac44: Thanks Larry, bye.
[16:51] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Bye, Larry
[16:51] #knownspace> Hippy: This has been a good session
[16:51] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[16:52] dmac44 has joined #knownspace
[16:52] #knownspace> Jim: EML, anything new that is not related to Known Space?
[16:52] #knownspace> dmac44: Sorry about that. It looks like Outies will come out in paperback and Kindle.
[16:53] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, good
[16:53] #knownspace> EML: I looked away and Larry was gone. Oops.
[16:54] #knownspace> NickE: me too..damn you Amazon!
[16:55] #knownspace> Dan: No, Ed. I was thinking of one of theose early 1900s pre-Von Danniken "re-imaginings" of then-current science-fact books that inspired Wylie & Balmer's When Worlds Collide & After Worlds Collide - as well as Von Danniken & Stinchin's ancient astronaut fads.
[16:55] #knownspace> EML: Jim: my latest non-KS effort is called ENERGIZED, which deals with powersats. It's running as a serial in Analog; it'll be a book (from Tor) next year.
[16:57] #knownspace> dmac44: So Ed, are you going to buy a Chihuly Gw'oth for your living room?
[16:58] #knownspace> Jim: whaa
[16:58] #knownspace> dmac44: - July 12th blog.
[16:59] #knownspace> EML: Doug: I wish.
[17:00] #knownspace> EML:
[17:01] #knownspace> EML: The Chihuly exhibit was AMAZING.
[17:02] #knownspace> dmac44: I've never seen him, I've only heard about his glass sculptures.
[17:02] #knownspace> dmac44: I have heard he's $$$
[17:03] #knownspace> dmac44: I believe he lives in Seattle.
[17:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, the two go together :)
[17:05] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed: Is Energized a self contained universe or does it tie into your other worlds?
[17:05] #knownspace> EML: Doug: ENERGIZED is self-contained.
[17:06] #knownspace> dmac44: Do you find it difficult to make up a new universe for each book ( except the InterstellarNet books)?
[17:08] #knownspace> Dan: I second damc's question. I wind up writing stuff that's somewhat connected, yet can stand alone.
[17:09] #knownspace> Dan: Like the book I have at the publisher now - it's all part of my spaceport bar series, but shares characters with my Collector's Museum series & Planet Bethdish series.
[17:09] #knownspace> EML: I haven't run out of setting iseas, but there are efficiencies for me when I can reuse a universe.
[17:10] #knownspace> EML: um, iDeas.
[17:10] #knownspace> Dan: That's OK, Ed. We speak tyop here. LOL!
[17:10] #knownspace> Dan: See? Typo, even.
[17:11] #knownspace> EML: OTOH, wokring in a new universe is liberating.
[17:13] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed: Any more InterstellarNet stories in the pipeline?
[17:13] #knownspace> Dan: Be back in about half an hour. I need to make a beer run before the next thunderstorm arrives...
[17:13] #knownspace> EML: My recent solos have tended towards the very near-future, and since the pesky present keeps catching up, each near-future really needs some rebaselining.
[17:14] #knownspace> dmac44: As the saying goes, the present isn't what it used to be. :)
[17:14] #knownspace> EML: Doug: for the short run, at the least, the I-Net universe will stay at InterstellarNet: Origins and INterstellarNet: New Order
[17:15] #knownspace> EML: (But InterstellarNet: Comnspiracy does keep percolating in the back of my mind ...)
[17:16] #knownspace> dmac44: There are a few unanswered questions hanging out there .....
[17:17] #knownspace> EML: oh, I keep a list of unanswered questions in that universe. More than a century and eleven species (plus their AIs) will do that.
[17:17] #knownspace> EML: send your questoins along, and maybe I'll get to them.
[17:18] #knownspace> dmac44: Will do. I've got to go. See you all next month.
[17:20] #knownspace> Hippy: So. . .
[17:20] #knownspace> EML: So?
[17:20] #knownspace> Hippy: I was just breaking a silence. Someone else cna do it next time"
[17:21] #knownspace> Hippy: Someone can change the topic, too
[17:21] #knownspace> EML: Yeah, I think it's about time for me to add to the silence. It'll be dinner time soon here.
[17:22] #knownspace> EML: TTFN, folks.
[17:22] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Bye, Ed
[17:22] #knownspace> Jim: see you in a month
[17:22] #knownspace> Hippy: See you next month, or so
[17:23] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[17:23] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Bye, Jim
[17:24] #knownspace> Hippy: So. . .
[17:27] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: ... long
[17:29] #knownspace> Hippy: "In the night time heart of Beirut, Harry Potter apparated into reality"
[17:29] #knownspace> Hippy: That's as far as I've gotten with that crossover
[17:31] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: of course the WWC movie (and it's imminent dreadful remake) changed Bronson Alpha into a STAR
[17:31] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, it wasn't a star originally?
[17:31] #knownspace> Akiraa: well, at some point you have to say 'no' and admit that fictional universes can't be made 100% consistent
[17:32] #knownspace> Akiraa: now, what do you feel about the idea of a universe evolving generatively
[17:32] #knownspace> Akiraa: from an algorithmic set of rules
[17:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: and the sci-fi writer filling in the blanks
[17:33] #knownspace> Hippy: It sounds perfectly reasonalbe
[17:33] #knownspace> Hippy: You mean a created universe? Not our one?
[17:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: a procedurally generated universe
[17:34] #knownspace> Akiraa: with minimal assumptions
[17:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Sounds like 'Dungeons and Dragons' could be good for that
[17:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Okay, so you would have to decide how minimal these instructions could be. Then the universe becomes something like a Mandelbrot set
[17:34] #knownspace> Akiraa: yes
[17:35] #knownspace> Hippy: So you could look for what the bare minimum would be to get it giong
[17:36] #knownspace> Hippy: One minimum stgatement would be: there is some force that nakes matter exist
[17:36] #knownspace> Hippy: Or 'gravity attracts'
[17:36] #knownspace> Hippy: Or 'complex things decay into simple things'
[17:37] #knownspace> Hippy: But not something like 'All intelligent species behave in an ethical, moral manner' which is too specific
[17:37] #knownspace> Akiraa: or the generative universe can be a canvas
[17:38] #knownspace> Akiraa: say, the writer can even release the source code
[17:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, there would be some things you would want to say that couldn't be generated by the algorithms alone, but would need some statements from an author working in that universe
[17:38] #knownspace> Akiraa: where you can zoom in from galaxy level down to individual grains of dust
[17:39] #knownspace> Akiraa: so the writers themselves would not know the full layout of the universe
[17:39] #knownspace> Hippy: But what stops the writers from writing anything at all, stuff that wouldn't be consistent with the universe?
[17:39] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Hippy: No, it's a double world; gas giant and Earth sized rock. Alpha takes out the Moon on it's first pass, swings once around the Sun, and takes out Earth on it' second pass, and heads on out into the ether, leaving Beta behind
[17:40] #knownspace> Akiraa:
[17:40] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh. I think I'll have to read them now
[17:40] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: I think it would take some tricky orbital mechanics to plot that course :)
[17:41] #knownspace> Dan: Back, beer run successful. Blue Laws circumvented for yet another Sunday...
[17:41] #knownspace> Hippy: It sounds like a cometary orbit to me
[17:41] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: IIRC it's at right angles to the plane of the ecliptic
[17:42] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: and Beta ends up averaging Earth's orbit, but eccentric; it's basically the orbita path used for Preplanus in the first season of LOST IN SPACE
[17:44] #knownspace> Hippy: Now, that was a crazy orbit! "Who does Johannes Kepler think he is, anyway?"
[17:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Akiraa, looks like a good game
[17:45] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: I've always liked both books. George Pal was supposed to make the sequel movie, but when CONQUEST OF SPACE flopped, the studio decided that the oute space movie fad was over and cancelled it
[17:46] #knownspace> Dan: I read them back in College, & found them to be delightfully old-fashioned in the language. Similar to Skylark, Lensman, and the Campbell stories from the same period.
[17:46] #knownspace> Hippy: And so we have to ut up with horrendous remakes. . .
[17:46] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: What Dan said
[17:46] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: And I'd only do them as period pieces
[17:46] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: same as Barsoom
[17:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, let's hope Eric Flint never gets to them, then.
[17:47] #knownspace> Dan: Just saw Eric last month, as I recall...
[17:48] #knownspace> Dan: Didn't get to speak with him this time, though.
[17:48] #knownspace> Hippy: I don't mean to criticise a friend of yours, Dan, but his 'updating' of the language of older SF books just rubs me the wrong way
[17:49] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Hi everyone
[17:49] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Xenovalent
[17:49] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Fred_the_Exile: There's already a (fairly bad) Princess of Mars movie, and now Disney is making a "John Carter of Mars"
[17:49] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: I have no idea what the PLOT of 'After Worlds Collide' would be though; the first movie jettisoned everything that would be a plot point in the second
[17:49] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Xeno, please note
[17:49] #knownspace> Dan: He's not a close friend. Just a pro I see at conventions. He's a nice fellow, but I don't enjoy everything he writes. No more than I enjoy *everything* that Larry writes.
[17:49] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Pixar has removed the word 'Mars'
[17:49] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Hippy: You're going to be (relatively) in my neck of the woods - I'm in St. Pete, far side of Tampa from Orlando.
[17:50] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: And denies the existance of the previous film :)
[17:50] #knownspace> Xenovalent: Fred_the_Exile: Yeah, I just remembered seeing the trailer for it when I went to see Cowboys & Aliens
[17:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh! I thought you were in Europe somewhere
[17:51] #knownspace> Akiraa: hollywood can do a reboot
[17:51] #knownspace> Akiraa: who cares about canon anyway?
[17:51] #knownspace> Xenovalent: And it wasn't Pixar that made the previous one, so of course they deny its existence!
[17:51] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, perhaps we can meet for a few convivial libations when I'm there
[17:51] #knownspace> Xenovalent: No, I'm just usually not in front of my computer on Saturdays during chat time
[17:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, speaking of meetings, who is going to the WorldCon?
[17:53] #knownspace> Dan: Sadly, not I. Can't go to DragonCon either. I'm afraid my next con if the steampunk con in Atlanta in Feb. then back to Chattanooga for LibertyCon with Larry & Jerry.
[17:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, I shall definitely be at LibertyCon
[17:55] #knownspace> Dan: Please do! I might even be a guest author again next year. I've offered to do any panels that I wouldn't look the fool attending. I seem to have become Liberty's default steampunk-guy. LOL!
[17:57] #knownspace> Dan: My wife & I got there for this year's Liberty, and found out that after we'd bought memberships, I was given a 2nd membership as a writer. I told them to put the cash I'd paid for the 1st membership into the charity fund.
[17:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, if someone has to be a default steampunk guy, I'm glad it's you
[17:58] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I'm not going to WorldCon, but I am going to DragonCon this year. It'll be my first time. I'm told it can be a bit overwhelming. Any advice is welcome. :)
[17:58] #knownspace> Hippy: What is DragonCon exactly?
[17:59] #knownspace> NickE: huge media con in Atlanta
[17:59] #knownspace> Dan: Me too, actually! LOL! I'm not a big wheel in the Atlanta steampunk community, but I seem to have become the "oh! it's that guy! The guy what that thing online..." :)
[17:59] #knownspace> NickE: amazing
[17:59] #knownspace> NickE: went last year. fuckin incredible
[18:00] #knownspace> NickE: main advice - don't try to do everything
[18:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah. . .so it's all Wiis and WiFi?
[18:00] #knownspace> Dan: DragonCon is 50k people in a huge complex of 4 hotels. Anything you want to go to there, arrive *early* and be prepared for long lines.
[18:00] #knownspace> NickE: relax, get some sleep at least, enjoy
[18:00] #knownspace> NickE: 5 hotels
[18:01] #knownspace> Dan: I sit corrected, :)
[18:01] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[18:01] #knownspace> Xenovalent: NickE: Yeah, I already realized that I'm not going to be able to attend every event I want to go to. I'll be surprised if I get to 50% of them, actually...
[18:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Good God, that's huge!
[18:01] #knownspace> NickE: you wont evenn manage that, but it won't matter because everywhere you look will be something amazing
[18:01] #knownspace> Dan: Indeed. It's the most fun large-scale con in the Southeastern US.
[18:02] #knownspace> NickE: just spend some time in the Marriot bar pepole watching and see the parade
[18:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Hmm. I'll be near there Sept 2-5. . .
[18:02] #knownspace> Dan: I'd avise planning ahead as to what you want to get into the most, then budgeting your time very carefully.
[18:03] #knownspace> Dan: My steampunk friends are running the Alternate History track. I'd also recommend attempting to see Abney Park perform. Good music, theirs.
[18:04] #knownspace> NickE: There is a huge Steampunk track
[18:04] #knownspace> Dan: I also have a friend who's high up in the Robot Wars events.
[18:04] #knownspace> NickE: My son was in the Steampunk bit of the parade. V proud!
[18:05] #knownspace> Xenovalent: It sounds like you have *very* interesting friends, Dan.
[18:05] #knownspace> Dan: Congrats!
[18:05] #knownspace> NickE: I never got to see teh robot stuf unfortunatly
[18:05] #knownspace> Dan: I'm just this guy, you know? But I tend to meet people who turn out to be movers & shakers.
[18:06] #knownspace> NickE: We did our Firefly podcast (The Signal) live in the podcasting track and won a Parsec award!
[18:06] #knownspace> Dan: I think they are relieved I'm not a gushing fan-boy. Ben Bova & I had a quiet conversation in a men's room at LibertyCon in 2010, for instance.
[18:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: that can be construed the wrong way :)
[18:08] #knownspace> NickE: well wasn't going to say :-)
[18:08] #knownspace> Dan: Cons are fun. Especially if you act like everyone you meet is an old friend you haven't seen in a long time.
[18:09] #knownspace> Dan: We were washing our hands in adjoining sinks after each taking a piss, thank you very much, LOL!
[18:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Perhaps I should try that
[18:09] #knownspace> NickE: most guests at D*C are very approachable if you keep it relaxed. And Autograph alley is a good place for a very quick chat
[18:09] #knownspace> Hippy: The guest list at this thing is staggering
[18:10] #knownspace> Akiraa: dan, consider the setting where you have lots of sci-fi writers, someone you meet gets awfully familiar, you then play along hoping to remember who he is :)
[18:10] #knownspace> NickE: I mean just sitting in the bar rhe first night and there s folk from Firefly, Stargate and Trek...and then Stan fuckin Lee walks in
[18:10] #knownspace> Akiraa: not wanting to offend them by not knowing who they are
[18:11] #knownspace> Hippy: That would be awesome
[18:11] #knownspace> Dan: Yeah! Great feeling to have been there to see that sort of thing, isn't it?
[18:11] #knownspace> NickE: just chilling and relaxing like eveyone else.
[18:11] #knownspace> NickE: D*C is very friendly I found
[18:13] #knownspace> NickE: magical
[18:13] #knownspace> Dan: I think that a Fandom thing rather than a Southern thing, Nick. Although I could be wrong. All my experience is inside Southern US Fandom.
[18:13] #knownspace> Xenovalent: (sorry about my jumping in, then being quiet...I'm reading scrollback in another window)
[18:14] #knownspace> NickE: Well I also found folk generaly very hospitable - Atlanta seems to enjoy having D*C in town
[18:14] #knownspace> Hippy: I find all Americans hospitable
[18:14] #knownspace> Dan: Everyone acts like family. If you play it cool, you can have a meaningful conversation with damn near anyone.
[18:14] #knownspace> NickE: agreed
[18:14] #knownspace> Hippy: I think I will use my accent to attract women :)
[18:15] #knownspace> Dan: It will.
[18:15] #knownspace> NickE: waiting in line needent be boring, just start chatting to whoever is near and it will be interesting
[18:17] #knownspace> Hippy: Egad! The sun has just cleared the houses across the street
[18:17] #knownspace> Dan: The first year I met John Ringo, I didn't think much of him as a person, but now it's 5 years later and he & his wife are folks I'm on hugging terms with. Michael Z. Williamson is witty beyond belief, & there's loads of others whom have become good friends.
[18:18] #knownspace> Dan: When I met Larry & Jerry, they were in a swimming pool. Got out to carry on a conversation with me, too.
[18:19] #knownspace> Hippy: This has got to br your Southern charm, Dan
[18:20] #knownspace> Dan: Larry is a real doll. He understands that fen sometimes drink too much. *Never* waste Jerry's time. He hates having his time wasted.
[18:21] #knownspace> Dan: Ask good questions, and they talk with you as long as they have time to spare.
[18:23] #knownspace> Dan: Oh, and never call Jerry "Mister." He earned that degree, and he's justifiably proud of it. Doctor Pournelle is fine, but he prefers Jerry.
[18:26] #knownspace> Dan: That's about all the tutorial I have to offer. The bigger the con, the more you have to budget your time for any one event. But be flexible and yu might wind up in something unplanned that you'll enjoy. (And I ain't talkin' about the hookers! LOL!)
[18:26] #knownspace> NickE: aye, goin with teh flow works
[18:27] #knownspace> NickE: Oh and try the beer menu at Max Lagers just down from the Hyatt, bloody awesome
[18:28] #knownspace> NickE: didn't have a crap beer the whole time I was there. the local pale ale is very good
[18:28] #knownspace> Dan: Like I said, if you like music, try to get to see Abney Park perform. My friends from The Extrordinary Contraptions won't be there, but they migh show up for the steampunk float in the parade.
[18:28] #knownspace> Hippy: Tha's pretty impressive in America
[18:29] #knownspace> NickE: they did last year!
[18:29] #knownspace> NickE: Yeah, was pleasantly surprised good stuff was so available
[18:29] #knownspace> Dan: Yeah, but they were skipped as musical guests this year. They have a foot in the door for 2012, though.
[18:30] #knownspace> Dan: D*C seems to rotate their musical guests. Only the really Big Names get asked back every year.
[18:31] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I'm sure with it being so big, they turn down a lot of B- and C- and D-list celebrity types in order to save space for the A-listers that they can get.
[18:33] #knownspace> Hippy: This year's guest lists certainly indicate that
[18:33] #knownspace> Dan:
[18:35] NickE2 has joined #knownspace
[18:35] #knownspace> Hippy: Welcome back, Nick
[18:36] #knownspace> Dan: RE, Nick.
[18:36] #knownspace> NickEv3: wtf was that
[18:36] #knownspace> NickEv3: :-)
[18:36] #knownspace> NickEv3: odd
[18:37] #knownspace> Dan: What happened?
[18:37] #knownspace> Hippy: Decidedly
[18:37] #knownspace> NickEv3: serever time out
[18:37] #knownspace> NickEv3: but I'm still seeing the conversation
[18:37] #knownspace> NickEv3: no matter
[18:43] #knownspace> NickEv3: wish I could go this year, but still paying fir last year's outing
[18:43] #knownspace> Dan: Well, going offline for a bit to watch this week's episode of Torchwood. It's been fun, my friends! Take care!
[18:45] #knownspace> NickEv3: don' bother Dan its crap
[18:45] #knownspace> NickEv3: well, hel find out
[18:45] #knownspace> NickEv3: good chat
[18:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, it has been
[18:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, and appazrently 'Outcasts' is being reneewed for another season
[18:46] #knownspace> NickEv3: oh god
[18:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Now, now. It's all about the eye candy
[18:47] #knownspace> NickEv3: should have been good,,,wasted
[18:47] #knownspace> Hippy: The actual show is, I agree, nothing to write home about
[18:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes. The writers had no idea how to do a story arc, but thought they needed one for sales purposes
[18:48] #knownspace> NickEv3: ral shame as there were some interesting ideas, but it got too silly too early and had filler episodes in an 8 ep run
[18:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Exactly!
[18:48] #knownspace> NickEv3: it shwed bigtim
[18:49] #knownspace> Hippy: It did what?
[18:49] #knownspace> NickEv3: it showed that they had no idea how to do a proper story arc
[18:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yes, that it did
[18:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Why they thought they needed one is a question for the ages
[18:51] #knownspace> NickEv3: quite
[18:51] #knownspace> Hippy: I only wish 'Survivors' had carried on a bit longer
[18:52] #knownspace> NickEv3: well have to agree to disagree thhere
[18:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, and I was going to ask about '1990' Somehow I've cntrived to lose my files of it
[18:52] #knownspace> NickEv3: the remake was awful
[18:53] #knownspace> NickEv3: IMO
[18:53] #knownspace> Hippy: I thought the remake better than the 70's version, but it's a matter of persnal taste, I suppose
[18:53] #knownspace> NickEv3: sure, I liked teh originla much better
[18:53] #knownspace> Hippy: Now, what about the remake of 'Day of the Triffids'?
[18:53] #knownspace> NickEv3: (typing up to usual standards)
[18:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Fred's excellent word 'Blarf' aptly describes that
[18:54] #knownspace> NickEv3: again I'd go with teh 70s version
[18:54] #knownspace> NickEv3: agree there!
[18:55] #knownspace> Hippy: 1981 version with John Duttine? Yes, that has been the best
[18:55] #knownspace> NickEv3: oh sorry, yes early 80s
[18:55] #knownspace> Hippy: The 2008 version was bowel-cleansingly awful
[18:55] #knownspace> NickEv3: very good indeed
[18:55] #knownspace> NickEv3: it was
[18:56] #knownspace> Hippy: If there really are infernons, they gathered strongly around it
[18:56] #knownspace> NickEv3: heh
[18:56] #knownspace> NickEv3: Torchwood is very disappointing so far
[18:57] #knownspace> Hippy: I didn't like the first lot
[18:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Except for the one about the Welsh cannibals. That was a good one
[18:57] #knownspace> NickEv3: me either, but thought Children of Earth was fairly good
[18:58] #knownspace> NickEv3: The Hills have Eyes Boyo? please
[18:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, once again, it's a matter of taste. Tastes like chicken :)
[18:59] #knownspace> NickEv3: Dr Who it 'aint
[18:59] #knownspace> Hippy: No, that's true
[18:59] #knownspace> NickEv3: But it could be good, thats the annoying thing
[19:01] #knownspace> Hippy: So much of TV is like that. Imagine what 'Enterprise' could've been
[19:03] #knownspace> NickEv3: yeah, instead we got...something
[19:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Whereas, say, 'The Sarah Connor Chronicles' went as far as it could go
[19:03] #knownspace> NickEv3: I didnt see many of thise, but they were OK
[19:04] #knownspace> Hippy: I just thought 'God, this'll be a soapie' and completely ignored it
[19:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Meanwhile, 'Stargate: The Convenience Store' is yet to grace our screens
[19:05] #knownspace> NickEv3: well, the 2nd half of Dr Who starst soon, there's a new short series of Sherlock as well
[19:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Sherlock impressed the hell out of me. I'm only hoping it comes on here
[19:05] #knownspace> NickEv3: There's been some decent TV around. The Shadow Line was excellent
[19:05] #knownspace> NickEv3: Aus yes?
[19:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Haven't heard of that one
[19:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes
[19:06] #knownspace> NickEv3: Very complex, tens and kept you guessing right to teh nd
[19:06] #knownspace> NickEv3: end
[19:07] #knownspace> NickEv3: starred Chiwetel Eijfor who was The Operative in Serenity
[19:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, okay
[19:08] #knownspace> NickEv3: Luther was also good, but got very OTT compard to teh 1st series
[19:09] #knownspace> NickEv3: none of these are SF of course, just good TV drama
[19:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Havne't heard of that one, either. It seems I'm very out of touch
[19:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, on that note, how about 'NewTricks'? That's a show with story arcs that don't get in the way of the story
[19:09] #knownspace> NickEv3: It's good, but I never got into it
[19:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Note how we've mesmerised the other chat members. . .
[19:10] #knownspace> NickEv3: Now Spooks is bloody brilliant
[19:10] #knownspace> NickEv3: heh
[19:10] #knownspace> Hippy: I found 'Spooks' hard to get into
[19:10] #knownspace> NickEv3: watching it from th beggining on DVD and enjoying it
[19:11] #knownspace> NickEv3: Oh and therse a final series of Hustle being made which is good news that was always clver and funny
[19:12] #knownspace> Hippy: Yeah, I saw a few eps of that
[19:12] #knownspace> NickEv3: but decent SciFi... not much currently
[19:13] #knownspace> Hippy: No. The idiot idea that it takes human drama to make a good show more or less kills good SF off
[19:14] #knownspace> NickEv3: seems to be that way all too often
[19:14] #knownspace> Hippy: Some audience members would prefer to think rather than feel
[19:18] #knownspace> Hippy: The ideal would be an anthology series. That way you have to tell the full story with no arcs in one episode.
[19:18] #knownspace> NickEv3: well, it's well past midinight for me. Enjoy your morning Hippy
[19:18] #knownspace> NickEv3: good chat!
[19:18] #knownspace> Hippy: 'The Outer Limits' remake did that
[19:18] #knownspace> NickEv3: think i saw a couple of tem
[19:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, it's been damn good this month. I wish Jerry Pournelle had stayed on longer
[19:19] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Inconstant Moon' was one of them
[19:19] #knownspace> NickEv3: aye, but as Dan said, he treats hos time as valuable
[19:20] #knownspace> NickEv3: stiil, Larry, Jerry and Ed all on at the same time (just), not bad
[19:20] #knownspace> NickEv3: I did see that. Thought it was pretty good
[19:20] #knownspace> Hippy: All we needed was Steven Barnes
[19:20] #knownspace> NickEv3: aye
[19:20] #knownspace> NickEv3: Or Dave Gerrold
[19:20] #knownspace> NickEv3: or both
[19:20] #knownspace> Hippy: Now that would be good!
[19:21] #knownspace> NickEv3: or Brenda, Mike Flynn
[19:21] #knownspace> Hippy: Hank Stine, Greg Benford. . .
[19:21] #knownspace> NickEv3: how many co authors can you fit in a chat room?
[19:21] #knownspace> NickEv3: heh
[19:21] #knownspace> Hippy: We could sit here planning the huge book wherein they could all collaborate
[19:22] #knownspace> NickEv3: aye. Pumped about Bowl of Heaven. Title was my suggestion waaay back when
[19:22] #knownspace> Hippy: We could quiz Dave Gerrold about Sleestaks
[19:23] #knownspace> Hippy: Brilliant!
[19:23] #knownspace> NickEv3: Larry obviously likd it enough
[19:24] #knownspace> Xenovalent: I think it would be funny if Larry and his co-authors co-wrote a book using the "Atlanta Nights" method - just each write an entire chapter, then pass it to the next author, don't give any notes on character, world-building, etc., just let them run with it.
[19:24] #knownspace> Hippy: You'll be famous
[19:24] #knownspace> NickEv3: heh
[19:24] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, 'Atlanta Nights'. I do love that book
[19:24] #knownspace> NickEv3: oh I doubt he recalls who it came from, just that it originated here
[19:25] #knownspace> NickEv3: 's cool
[19:26] #knownspace> NickEv3: anyway gents, been a pleasure as always, but getting sleepy so I'm calling it a night
[19:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, and probably time I put the launddry on
[19:26] #knownspace> NickEv3: Xeno, have fun at D*C. Thats a given by the way :-)
[19:26] #knownspace> Hippy: so, everyone, see you next month from humid Orlando
[19:27] #knownspace> NickEv3: ttfn
[19:28] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Bye, Nick
[19:28] #knownspace> NickEv3: night
[19:52] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Hippy
[19:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes?
[19:52] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Welcome back :)
[19:53] #knownspace> Hippy: Thanks.
[19:53] #knownspace> Hippy: The conversation has kind of lost momentum :)
[19:54] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: Reading back
[19:54] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: agree with you on most of the TV shows
[19:54] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: and Trffids
[19:55] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yes, that Triffids adaptation was staggeringly bad
[19:55] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: I just got the sequl book DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS yesterday
[19:55] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, yes. Well, if you feel you've done someting you really need to be punsihed for, rad it
[19:56] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: that bad? :(
[19:56] #knownspace> Hippy: It proves that infernons exist in publishing if nowhere else
[19:56] #knownspace> Hippy: It's just. . .I don't know, the gall of Simon Clark to write a sequel that is really just his piece of fanfic
[19:58] #knownspace> Hippy: His redesign of the actual triffid is ghastly beyond belief
[19:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Or rather, silly. Insultingly silly
[19:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Don't let me prejudice you though
[20:00] #knownspace> SeanS: been a good chat?
[20:00] #knownspace> Hippy: But for now, it's ten o'clock and the pubs would be openn if it wasn't Sunday, so I shall adjourn and see you all in amonth
[20:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Hell, yes, Sean
[20:01] #knownspace> Hippy: But for now, I must adjourn
[20:01] #knownspace> SeanS: cool... i have been on the beach and then talking to the gf out on the porch
[20:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Half your luck, Sean
[20:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Xeno, I shall keep in mind the possiblity of heading to St P, but I'm not the driving, so it might not be on
[20:04] #knownspace> SeanS: half my luck? I was drinking on a sand beach with local friends. how is that bad?
[20:04] #knownspace> Hippy: It isn't. It's wishing I had a life half as good
[20:06] #knownspace> Hippy: This is turning into a long goodbye, but now I'm definitely going to go
[20:07] #knownspace> Hippy: "Bye, everyone
[20:09] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: hey sean
[20:10] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: thanks for the chat alert
[21:21] #knownspace> Fred_the_Exile: au jus 'til next month!
[21:26] #knownspace> Xenovalent: If Hippy shows up again when I'm not around, let him know I'm willing to meet him in Orlando (or anywhere between here and there) if it can be done on a weekend.