Chat Log: April 3rd, 2010

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[13:39] #knownspace> Sean: hey Nick
[13:40] #knownspace> Sean: at Julie's parents for an easter egg hunt.
[13:40] #knownspace> Sean: will be up and down the steps
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[14:31] #knownspace> NickE: bloody thing
[14:33] #knownspace> NickE: hmm. How did the Citezens deliver hulls to KS when they'd have to do it via hyperspace?
[14:33] #knownspace> NickE: Unless they had a KS manufacturing facility set up
[14:34] #knownspace> NickE: Which even then, would have to be able to deliver unfitted hulls (which was the default - only in Neutrons Star did they say they were branching out into complete ships) via hyperspace
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[14:35] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Mark
[14:35] #knownspace> nedry__: hi nick
[14:35] #knownspace> nedry__: and everyone else as well.
[14:35] #knownspace> nedry__: i would have been on earlier but i was watching Doctor Who
[14:35] #knownspace> NickE: good wasnt it
[14:35] #knownspace> NickE: no p
[14:35] #knownspace> NickE: spoilers
[14:35] #knownspace> nedry__: a major improvement
[14:35] #knownspace> NickE: looks very promising I thought
[14:36] #knownspace> nedry__: stephen moffat is a much better writer than the Queer as Folk guy
[14:36] #knownspace> NickE: agreed
[14:36] #knownspace> NickE: Davies had some good ideas, but all teh best eps were written by others (including Moffat)
[14:37] #knownspace> nedry__: yeah. I thought the best Davies episode written was the last one with Tennant in it.
[14:37] #knownspace> nedry__: He said he's been thinking about it for a long time.
[14:38] #knownspace> NickE: dunno, thought most of The Master ones were not that great
[14:38] #knownspace> NickE: Some nice ideas, but poor execution
[14:39] #knownspace> NickE: gotta go eat somem Bambi steak : -) back later
[14:39] #knownspace> nedry__: the master never comes with good scripts
[14:39] #knownspace> nedry__: okay
[14:56] #knownspace> Sean: new who today?
[14:57] #knownspace> nedry__: yeah.
[14:57] #knownspace> Sean: cool... will download it tomorrow
[14:58] #knownspace> nedry__: you'll like it.
[14:58] #knownspace> Sean: at julie's parents for an easter egg hunt.
[14:58] #knownspace> Sean: snuck off to check the room
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[15:00] #knownspace> Dan: Greetings, Programs!
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[15:07] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi

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[15:07] #knownspace> Dan: Well, someone spoke, at last! LOL!
[15:08] #knownspace> NickE: ffs. Thats the 3rd time teh applet has chucked me out under Firefox
[15:08] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Dan
[15:08] #knownspace> NickE: was eating
[15:08] #knownspace> NickE: good venison steak
[15:09] #knownspace> Dan: Not a problem. Just found out that the newest Doctor Who has finished broadcasting in England. Waiting to hear how the episode was and people's impressions of the new actor.
[15:09] #knownspace> nedry__: the episode was excellent
[15:09] #knownspace> NickE: Was actually very good
[15:09] #knownspace> Dan: Thank you!
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[15:10] #knownspace> NickE: Story a bit slow and weak to begin with but picked up well and looks very promising
[15:10] #knownspace> Dan: I should be able to watch it sometime tomorrow.
[15:10] #knownspace> nedry__: matt smith will do nicely, script is very good
[15:10] #knownspace> NickE: Hey Latty
[15:10] #knownspace> NickE: Larry even
[15:10] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya, Larry!
[15:10] #knownspace> NickE: : -)
[15:11] #knownspace> Larry: Hi. I don't know how General Products delivered their hulls. May have made them on the spot. May have put drives in them.
[15:11] #knownspace> NickE: So cautious thumbs up for new Dr Who. New companion actress very good
[15:12] #knownspace> Larry: I'll watch for a new Doctor Who. Normal TV?
[15:12] #knownspace> NickE: But someone would hav to deliver them and you can't automate hydredrive as far as I know
[15:12] #knownspace> Dan: Larry, we'll find out when a new story prompts you to develop the idea. : )
[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: Just watched the new Dr Who in teh UK. Think it airs in the US later this month
[15:13] #knownspace> Dan: Larry, the brodcast was just ending in England. It should hit BBC America on the 17th of this month.
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[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Oliver
[15:13] #knownspace> oneukum: hello
[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: waht dan said
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[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Ronn
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: (wow, everyone showing up now : -)
[15:14] #knownspace> Dan: I have some friends over there that usually send me a copy of the shows within a day or tow of their British broadcast.
[15:14] #knownspace> ronn: Hello! Looks like I'm in . . .
[15:15] #knownspace> Dan: And a hush falls over the room... LOL!
[15:15] #knownspace> NickE: On the GP hull question, even if made in KS, would still have to deliver hulls around via hyperdrive
[15:16] #knownspace> NickE: Unless they have a removable "delivery shunt" drive and contract out delivery
[15:17] #knownspace> Larry: Interesting. I think they'd hire locals to do the moving. There's a character waiting to be developed.
[15:17] #knownspace> NickE: I guess an inflatable lifesystem with a drive attached would serve - after all Bey and Elephant limped home with just that and no GP hull at all!
[15:17] #knownspace> Dan: Maybe the Outsiders also run a freight shipping service? 1 Trillion starts, S&H?
[15:17] #knownspace> Dan: stars
[15:18] #knownspace> NickE: the hulls were dear, but not that dear
[15:18] #knownspace> NickE: at least not before At The Core
[15:19] #knownspace> ronn: S&H? They give green stamps?
[15:19] #knownspace> NickE: Wasn't there something in the Worlds books about the manufacturing facility needing particular garvitational conditions or stability during growth of teh hull
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: Would the PP have such a valuable and sensitive facilty in or near KS?
[15:21] #knownspace> NickE: (probably, they were good at hiding stuff)
[15:23] #knownspace> Larry: I'm still playing with the guy who runs hulls (and inflatable life support and detachable hyperdrive and such) from a secret lab to nearby stars. Do they wipe his memory? Would he try to run, carrying contraband memory?
[15:23] #knownspace> NickE: could make a good story or at least a character - delivery driver??
[15:23] #knownspace> NickE: exactly
[15:24] #knownspace> oneukum: they'd never take the same guy for the whole trip
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: oooh.... information very easy to carry
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: and high value
[15:24] #knownspace> Dan: At 3 LY per day, how far from Known Space would a hull factory have to be before the delivery times were too long for the Puppeteers to prefer?
[15:25] #knownspace> NickE: The question is how close to KS was the Fleet before At The Core's events made them run?
[15:26] #knownspace> oneukum: they could have stored hulls at a closer depot as they are standardized
[15:26] #knownspace> Dan: Close enough for Captain Kidd to find them. Or were they on the move already, at that time?
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: If delivery tims were in teh months range, no reason the facility could't be above Home
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: (PP Home)
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: Good point
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: Crap, wheres my timeline
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: well..some hulls were standardised, but I got the distinct impression that many were custom design jobs
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: accees points, apertures for drives and instruments
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: They could certainly mess with the standard layout as Liar demonstrates
[15:29] #knownspace> Larry: Standard shapes, could be reworked. I never gave much detail, but Ed's been doing that.
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: The RPG even suggests that there was an infra-red permeable small (40m) #4 varient made for teh Peirin
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: ooh. more techy details, cool
[15:31] #knownspace> dmac44: 1. Combining information from Fleet, Ringworld and There is a Tide the original Puppeteer system seems to lie about 113 light years from Earth toward galactic north (a travel time of 339 days or about 11 months in hyperspace). This location assumes that the Puppeteers will continue accelerating at a constant .004 G between 2650 and 2850.

[15:32] #knownspace> NickE: But that was after 200 years of acceleration. In pre At The Core time, it could have been much closer
[15:32] #knownspace> NickE: or did I miss something
[15:32] #knownspace> dmac44: No, it started accelerating around 2650

[15:32] #knownspace> dmac44: it being the Fleet

[15:33] #knownspace> NickE: yup
[15:33] #knownspace> dmac44: The Fleet started near the Puppeteers home star.
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[15:35] #knownspace> NickE9: dammit, it's not just Firefox. The applet appeas to be flaky tonight
[15:36] #knownspace> NickE9: wft?
[15:36] #knownspace> NickE9: huh. didnt give myself this nickname
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE9: oh well
[15:37] #knownspace> ronn: Nick: If U are using Firefox, you might want to try the ChatZilla plug-in. That's what I am using and I prefer it.
[15:38] #knownspace> ronn: I wondered why you changed names.
[15:38] #knownspace> NickE9: I think I tried it one time and didn't have much luck

[15:39] #knownspace> NickE: heer on IE right now
[15:39] #knownspace> NickE: (and spelling still as iffy as always : -)
[15:39] #knownspace> Dan: I've been using mIRC for 14 years now. I'm pretty satisfied with it.
[15:40] #knownspace> dmac44: I use firefox and the java applett in the browser. Seems to work fine for me.

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[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: flirted with it
[15:41] #knownspace> Dan: Hello, Jim.
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: applet usually works fine for me
[15:41] #knownspace> Jim: hi
[15:41] #knownspace> Jim: did you answer the question
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: you l
[15:41] #knownspace> NickE: oops
[15:42] #knownspace> NickE: you know, the PP did business with many species. The Hull delivery question is not just relevant to human customers
[15:43] #knownspace> Jim: I suspect that the PP's hired aliens to deliver the hulls
[15:43] #knownspace> dmac44: do we know which species bought hulls from the PPs?
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: the detachable lifesystem/drive delivery module idea could be standard equipment across markets - different lifesystem specs of course
[15:44] #knownspace> ronn: "aliens" meaning "not PPs"?
[15:44] #knownspace> NickE: The Pierin, Trinocs
[15:44] #knownspace> Jim: exactly
[15:44] #knownspace> Jim: non-human, non-PP aliens
[15:44] #knownspace> NickE: post MK wars, possibly Kdatlyno
[15:44] #knownspace> Sean: leaving easter egg hunt at gf's parents. will try to be in chat from the house soon
[15:45] #knownspace> Dan: OK, Sean.
[15:45] #knownspace> NickE: k
[15:45] #knownspace> oneukum: that would imply export hulls are not made at the fleet, as its location must be kept secret
[15:45] #knownspace> dmac44: trinocs? how do we know this?
[15:45] #knownspace> NickE: Nessus mentions it in RW I believe
[15:45] #knownspace> NickE: traded with them at least
[15:46] #knownspace> NickE: which I would assume would include hulls
[15:46] #knownspace> dmac44: I know the trinocs traded with the PPs but that doesn't meant they traded in hulls
[15:46] #knownspace> NickE: or maybe Trinocs too paranoid to accept safety on non Trinoc hulls?
[15:46] #knownspace> NickE: true
[15:46] #knownspace> dmac44: in There is a Tide the description of the Trinoc spaceship was non-PP hull
[15:47] #knownspace> NickE: Had to be as the neutronium just ate it
[15:47] #knownspace> dmac44: Okay, so how do we know the pierin bought them?
[15:47] #knownspace> Jim: Please correct me, if I am wrong, but hyperdrive cannot be automated, right?
[15:47] #knownspace> Dan: Correct.
[15:47] #knownspace> NickE: But GP hulls expensive and not standard even in Bey's time
[15:48] #knownspace> NickE: Yes, so delivery drivers needed as PPs wouldnt do anything so damn dangerous
[15:48] #knownspace> NickE: certainly not for something as mundane as delivering a trade item
[15:48] #knownspace> dmac44: I believe there were 4 basic types with variations for hull transparency for different customers. Also, different openings for conduits, etc
[15:48] #knownspace> NickE: (I assume)
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: Yep. larry already said basic design could be customised
[15:49] #knownspace> oneukum: PPs won't do it without coertion
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: (Established in several places)
[15:50] #knownspace> dmac44: where ever the hulls were made the PPs would ferry them some distance from the point of creation before turning them over to alien pilots
[15:51] #knownspace> oneukum: now that you mention it, is switching pilots at some point really safer than ride the delivery vehicle all the way?
[15:51] #knownspace> dmac44: we also know from, I think Juggler, that other shapes GP hull material can be made into other things (the Hindmost's waiting room).
[15:52] #knownspace> dmac44: not safer, the PPs wouldn't want any species to know where they built the hulls, the only way to ensure that is to ferry it part way themselves
[15:53] #knownspace> ronn: and presumably there would be numerous transfer points, chosen by some algorithm to minimize the likelihood of some alien species analyzing the pattern of transfer points and tracking the most likely point of origin?
[15:53] #knownspace> oneukum: all the way would also work
[15:54] #knownspace> dmac44: yes, the PPs could ferry it all the way. Since only insane PPs leave the Fleet, the ferry pilots are somewhat insane by PPs standards. But that shouldn't make a difference
[15:54] #knownspace> Larry: Memory wipe, established up front by contract, would keep GP's secrets.
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[15:55] #knownspace> NickE: bugger
[15:56] #knownspace> Jim: Should the Fleet have been named the Herd?
[15:56] #knownspace> Dan: LOL!
[15:56] #knownspace> oneukum: would a PP take the risk a memory wipe cannot be reversed? or that a delivery man doesn't carry an implanted recording device?
[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: well quite
[15:57] #knownspace> ronn: "Herd of Worlds"?
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: contraband info vvaluabe
[15:57] #knownspace> ronn: Not quite the same, is it?
[15:57] #knownspace> dmac44: sigmund was memory wiped by Nexsus
[15:58] #knownspace> NickE: of course, if delevery driver enters into blackmail contract - something we know was standard practice, the memory wipe thing possibky becomes moot
[15:58] #knownspace> NickE: Oh crap, yes he was wan't he
[15:59] #knownspace> oneukum: Nessus knew that Sigmund would be tended by colonist physicians whose capabilities he knew
[15:59] #knownspace> Jim: I would not undergo a memory wipe operation voluntarily. Human brains are both rugged and sensitive at the same time. To remove a single memory would involve neuron pathways from various places in the brain. One false move, and the patient is an invalid.
[15:59] #knownspace> Larry: Ed and I had Louis Wu memory wiped by contract, in Betrayer of Worlds (now in final draft.)
[16:00] #knownspace> dmac44: I saw on Amazon that Betrayer is scheduled to be published in Oct.
[16:00] #knownspace> Jim: A spoiler?
[16:02] #knownspace> Jim: NickE has left the building.
[16:03] #knownspace> Dan: He's been teleporting in and out all afternoon.
[16:03] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry, wouldn't Louis Wu, when he was a Protector, realize that he had been memory wiped back in his youth? Of course Louis Protector had a lot of other things on his mind in Ringworld's Children.
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[16:04] #knownspace> Larry: He might well see that. Note: in the Ringworld series he saw no sign of Puppeteers using memory wipe.
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[16:05] #knownspace> oneukum: What tells you that he didn't know?
[16:05] #knownspace> Jim: Ed!
[16:05] #knownspace> EML: Hi, all.
[16:06] #knownspace> Dan: Hiya, Ed.
[16:06] #knownspace> oneukum: The first thing I would show somebody whom I wiped would be his signed contract and a recording of him signing it.
[16:06] #knownspace> Jim: Let's go Mountaineers!!!
[16:07] #knownspace> Jim: oneukum, just like that Philip K. Dick movie that involved human seeing the near future
[16:08] #knownspace> EML: what are we talking about?
[16:09] #knownspace> Dan: I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't some routing trouble between England and the US today. I'm having trouble with staying connected to some friends in England in another chat.
[16:09] #knownspace> Jim: http: //
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[16:12] #knownspace> NickE: feck
[16:12] #knownspace> Jim: hi nick
[16:13] #knownspace> NickE: So Larry, Betrayer on track then?
[16:13] #knownspace> Larry: Betrayer has gone through a first proofing.
[16:13] #knownspace> NickE: Cool
[16:14] #knownspace> dmac44: we started with how GP hulls are delivered and then on to memory wiping the alien pilots. Then Larry gave away a minor spoiler

[16:14] #knownspace> Jim: What are the processes by which a final draft becomes a published book?
[16:14] #knownspace> EML: tsk, Larry.
[16:14] #knownspace> NickE: Hi ed
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: Not that big a spoiler, more of a "wooho we get to find out more about LW" : -)
[16:15] #knownspace> Jim: Also, internet connectivity between UK and the US.
[16:15] #knownspace> NickE: Was relevant to memory wipe discussion
[16:15] #knownspace> EML: Jim: delivered manuscript / copy-edited manuscript / author corrections / typeset manuscript / author corrections / in-house final typestting
[16:16] #knownspace> NickE: heh, yeah that too and my lack of it at frequent intervals today
[16:16] #knownspace> EML: plus a bunch of parallel processing for cover art and copy.
[16:16] #knownspace> EML: Nick: then not a spoiler at all. The cover copy will tell you that much.
[16:17] #knownspace> NickE: fair enuff
[16:18] #knownspace> Dan: Small announcement: It's safe to tell you folks, though I can't announce it to my various friends lists online. I have a story in a POD flash fiction anthology that will be coming out before the end of the Summer. And a friend with a recording studio is putting together an audio play version of the same story. I was dieing to tell someone! LOL! OK, back to the discussion!
[16:18] #knownspace> NickE: more of an advance peek at the copy : -)
[16:18] #knownspace> NickE: Cool Dan!
[16:18] #knownspace> NickE: POD?
[16:19] #knownspace> EML: congrats, Dan.
[16:19] #knownspace> Dan: Print On Demand
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: oh duh
[16:19] #knownspace> Jim: What is flash fiction?
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: still cool
[16:19] #knownspace> EML: It makes Dan a POF person : -)
[16:19] #knownspace> Dan: I stand to make a cool 10 off of each copy sold. LOL!
[16:19] #knownspace> EML: oops. POD
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: woohoo!
[16:19] #knownspace> Dan: Flash is a 1000 word limit format.
[16:20] #knownspace> NickE: Drabble x 10
[16:20] #knownspace> Jim: Ok, I thought that it was somehow related to slash fiction.
[16:20] #knownspace> Dan: LOL!
[16:20] #knownspace> NickE: eeww
[16:20] #knownspace> EML: flash is hard to do -- every word choice really matters.
[16:20] #knownspace> Dan: Indeed!
[16:21] #knownspace> NickE: I bet
[16:21] #knownspace> Jim: And you have to tell a complete story, unlike drabbles.
[16:21] #knownspace> NickE: Drabbles can, but difficult
[16:21] #knownspace> NickE: Never tried either
[16:21] #knownspace> NickE: but imagine it's tough
[16:22] #knownspace> Jim: I have written one drabble; it is on Facebook.
[16:22] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed, how's your new book InterstellarNet: Origins doing?
[16:23] #knownspace> NickE: Last one I read was a very good Neil Gaiman one
[16:23] #knownspace> Larry: I'm a big Neil Gaiman fan.
[16:23] #knownspace> EML: Ah, Interstellarnet: Origins. What, in some contexts, I call Tales from UN-Known Spec : -) Thanks for asking, Doug.
[16:24] #knownspace> NickE: Finally read American Gods not that long ago. Very good indeed
[16:25] #knownspace> EML: the short answer: too soon to tell. But it's picked up some very nice blurbs. See http: //
[16:25] #knownspace> NickE: Have liked his Sandman stuff and Good Omens with Pterry for ages
[16:25] #knownspace> NickE: His short fiction can be excellent
[16:26] #knownspace> NickE: And disturbing : -)
[16:27] #knownspace> NickE: (scared to click that link in case it throws me out again : -)
[16:27] #knownspace> EML: this is why Mozilla invented tabs : -)
[16:27] #knownspace> NickE: ta
[16:30] #knownspace> Larry: Lunchtime. A pleasure talking to you all.
[16:30] #knownspace> EML: Bye, Larry.
[16:30] #knownspace> dmac44: bye Larry.

[16:30] #knownspace> Dan: Bye, Larry!
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: hm, Firefox lagging (on IE at the moment)
[16:31] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[16:31] #knownspace> EML: Everyone is on the quiet side today.
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[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: thats me via Firefox
[16:32] #knownspace> Jim: What are people's predictions for the NCAA final four?
[16:32] #knownspace> Dan: LOL! Nick ripped the duct tape!
[16:32] #knownspace> NickE: see which one stays on longest : -)
[16:32] #knownspace> Jim: ok
[16:32] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed, any new short fiction coming out?

[16:33] #knownspace> EML: Doug: I have a short story in the latest (incongrously labeled "June") issue of Analog.
[16:33] #knownspace> dmac44: I'll look for it.

[16:33] #knownspace> Jim: Yes, I saw it, but have not read it.
[16:34] #knownspace> EML: Mostly my recent non-novel-writing time has been focused on visibility for Interstellarnet: Origins.
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[16:34] #knownspace> NickE6: not sure, both have been flaky

[16:35] #knownspace> EML: I'd written four InterstellarNet novelettes and a novella over the years. I: O novelizes (expands and integrates) the five.
[16:35] #knownspace> NickE6: Firefox still showing me connected. Weird

[16:36] #knownspace> EML: I consider it the start of my own future history.
[16:36] #knownspace> NickE6: shiny

[16:36] #knownspace> NickE6: oh, there it goes

[16:36] #knownspace> NickE6: jjst have to ive with it today I guess

[16:36] #knownspace> Jim: EML, is there any interstellar travel in InterstellarNet?
[16:37] #knownspace> Jim: So much of SF and skiffy is devoted towards travel: Stargates, Star Trek, B-5, ...
[16:38] #knownspace> NickE6: this is true

[16:38] #knownspace> NickE6: desire to see other skies

[16:38] #knownspace> Jim: Or, rather, travel, transportation, and trade.
[16:38] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed, I wondered about that given the name. It seemd like the first book in a series.

[16:38] #knownspace> NickE6: brb

[16:38] #knownspace> EML: InterstellatNet is radio-based comm in lieu of travel. (But looking ahead ... there's a sequel in the works where non-FTL interstellar travel has been accomplished.)
[16:39] #knownspace> EML: Doug: #2 is InterstellarNet: New Order
[16:39] #knownspace> Jim: EML, how do you handle the problem of high-powered radiation caused by near C velocities?
[16:40] #knownspace> EML: habitat-sized ships for shielding. And not nearly near-cee. More like c/3.
[16:40] #knownspace> Jim: Would an asteroid provide enough forward shielding for a spacecraft traveling at 0.9 c?
[16:41] #knownspace> EML: The InterstelllarNet stories came about because I wanted to focus on an interstellar internet, *not* on travel. Interesting issues for a physics-and-computer guy such as myself.
[16:42] #knownspace> Jim: Ok
[16:43] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed: Then why did you decide to go the travel route (even at 1/3 C)?
[16:43] #knownspace> EML: One of the InterstellarNet stories got serialized at a confernece run by the International Telecommunicatiosn Union (a UN agency). I thought that was pretty neat.
[16:44] #knownspace> SeanS: ok, back at home... finally
[16:44] #knownspace> Jim: SeanS!
[16:45] #knownspace> SeanS: lot of talk about puppeteer delivery systems?
[16:45] #knownspace> EML: Doug. Why add travel? Because after five stories, I'd (episodically) explored a lot of the comm implications. But when travel is stil well below cee, comm will remain important.
[16:46] #knownspace> Jim: Elvis has left the building.
[16:47] #knownspace> EML: about our ostensible topic: why should it be hard to deliver GP hulls? What am I missing?
[16:47] #knownspace> oneukum: what drive with?
[16:47] #knownspace> SeanS: nick having major connection problems today?
[16:47] #knownspace> Jim: I suppose an interstellar internet would have to handle Ping timeouts longer than 180 seconds.
[16:48] #knownspace> EML: oneukum: we know the Puppeteers have hyperdrive. Why not install one for the trip?
[16:48] #knownspace> Jim: EML, we concluded that it would involve some non-human, non-PP alien pilots with contract mandatory mind wipes (selective).
[16:49] #knownspace> oneukum: then the drive needs to be removed after the trip and feried home or discarded
[16:49] #knownspace> EML: Jim: early in the InterstellarNet process, I wrote functional specs. A bit of those appear in this essay: http: //
[16:49] #knownspace> Jim: EML, only insane PP's will fly through hyperdrive.
[16:51] #knownspace> EML: IN Neutron Star, there are enough Puppeteers on We Made It that one is a bartender! In Juggler, I created backstory for why thereafter insane-enough Puppeteers were in short supply.
[16:51] #knownspace> dmac44: but a bartender Puppeteer would make agreat spy.

[16:52] #knownspace> EML: The bartender was in the GP building, serving other puppeteers.
[16:52] #knownspace> dmac44: probably just moonlighting : )
[16:52] #knownspace> oneukum: Wouldn't some PPs rather travel through hyperspace rather than stay on an accelerating world?
[16:54] #knownspace> EML: Out of a trillion puppeteers, how many do we need to shuttle hulls back and forth? A vanishingly small percentage, I suspect.
[16:55] #knownspace> Jim: oneukum: The Fleet is save enough to satisfy the demands of an American trial lawyer (i.e. hot McDonalds coffee in woman's lap).
[16:56] #knownspace> oneukum: using a drive they don't understand?
[16:56] #knownspace> Jim: good question
[16:57] #knownspace> EML: IMO, there's more to Puppeteers than cowardice. They have intelligence. They sometimes take calculated risks. Otherwise, they wouldn't use fire, let alone starships or planetry drives (which they also don't understand: see Destroyer).
[16:58] #knownspace> EML: And don't we all use tech every day that we don't understand?
[16:59] #knownspace> oneukum: yes, they take the lesser risk
[17:00] #knownspace> oneukum: humans have a tendency to do nothing when in doubt
[17:00] #knownspace> Jim: A PP would take human inaction in the face of danger to be foolhardy.
[17:01] #knownspace> SeanS: .weather 40601
[17:01] #knownspace> Outsider: Clear ☼, 69.8℉ (21℃), 29.99in (1012mb), Moderate breeze 11kt (↑) - KLOU 16:53, 2053Z
[17:01] #knownspace> SeanS: sorry... quicker than opening a browser to check
[17:01] #knownspace> EML: we all have multipoe motivators, and we're not all motivated by the same things. Puppeteers are as varied.
[17:02] #knownspace> EML: imagine trying to write a novel about humanity in which characters were allowed only one personality trait.
[17:02] #knownspace> oneukum: And no we don't regularly use technology nobody understands. We at least want to know that somebody understands.
[17:02] #knownspace> Jim: EML, I would suggest that there is more uniformity among PP's.
[17:03] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, jim, the 'herd instinct' would suggest that.
[17:03] #knownspace> Jim: Our society employ's people who know how to make iPods, TV's, computers, and automobiles.
[17:04] #knownspace> EML: Jim: why? IN the entirety of KS canon before the fleet series, readers never saw two puppeters interact. In fact, they scarcely saw more than two puppeteers.
[17:05] #knownspace> oneukum: Although we use pharmaceuticals of unknown operating modes. But there was no alternative.
[17:06] #knownspace> EML: One reader asked me once how Puppeteers conquered fire. Taking burning sticks into their mouths? It takes tech to make inflamable tongs.
[17:06] #knownspace> Jim: EML: My mind fills in the blanks where there is missing information. Some human societies place a greater emphasis on uniformity and shared group goals, than U.S. society.
[17:06] #knownspace> Jim: EML: My first sentence above was not entirely serious.
[17:07] #knownspace> oneukum: A shovel to move the embers and a lense to start fire
[17:07] #knownspace> SeanS: i would think a hoof would have a certain amount of immunity to heat
[17:08] #knownspace> EML: A species that cannot move past instinct will never advance very far. Consider the dangers inherent in any new tech.
[17:09] #knownspace> Jim: What danger is there in iPods? : -)
[17:10] #knownspace> EML: Jim: you could deafen yourself, or strangle in the earbud cord.
[17:10] #knownspace> oneukum: and miss an approaching enemy you didn't hear in time
[17:10] #knownspace> ronn: But how about the first discovery of fire by primitive PPs? Perhaps lightning striking a tree-equivalent? How would the discoverer carry the burning stick? Etc. . . .
[17:11] #knownspace> Jim: EML: That first one is a real danger; there is a bill being proposed to limit the volume on iPods.
[17:11] NickE has joined #knownspace
[17:11] #knownspace> ronn: Jim: HUH???
[17:11] #knownspace> NickE: and there it goes again. May have been longe, got distrated
[17:11] #knownspace> SeanS: what the futz would that do? just plug the ipod into a amplified headset
[17:11] #knownspace> NickE: yup looks lik
[17:11] #knownspace> Jim: Ronn: with respect to what
[17:12] #knownspace> dmac44: I have an image of the movie Castaway with a Puppeteer playing the role of Tom Hanks. He says "I have made fire! Ouch, ouch, ouch, my mouth." : )
[17:12] #knownspace> EML: ronn: that's the point. taming fire is HARD (and not made easier by having your eyes in your "hands").
[17:12] #knownspace> Jim: Radio Shack sells amplifiers to get around maximum volume levels in portable playback equipment.
[17:13] #knownspace> ronn: HUH?? WHAT DID YOU SAY?? -- iPod user
[17:13] #knownspace> ronn: Ed: I was agreeing with that . . . : )
[17:14] #knownspace> EML: backing up a few levels of abstraction ... I'm asserting that Puppeteers, however else they differ from humans, don't differ so much that they have only a single personality trait. If they were that instibctive in their behavior, they woudl not be as advanced as we know they are.
[17:14] #knownspace> oneukum: They'd start by observing fire noting that predators flee
[17:14] #knownspace> dmac44: Agreed, but Puppeteers are alien.

[17:15] #knownspace> EML: my last plug of the afternoon ... InterstellarNet: Origins has aliens wholly of my invention (including a herd-based species).
[17:15] #knownspace> ronn: Ed: So I suppose one of the first songs a Puppeteer would have written would have been "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" . . .
[17:15] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[17:16] #knownspace> dmac44: lol

[17:16] #knownspace> Jim: : -)
[17:16] #knownspace> EML: the chorus is : ow. ow. ow!
[17:16] #knownspace> Jim: I wonder what popular music would PP's like?
[17:16] #knownspace> SeanS: or puppeteers could be a created species with tech... they know that they have no undying part. ;)
[17:16] #knownspace> dmac44: I would think it would be ow-ow, ow-ow, ow-ow.

[17:17] #knownspace> NickE: well quite
[17:17] #knownspace> EML: I want a bride, just like the bride, from whom erupted dear old dad.
[17:17] #knownspace> dmac44: lol

[17:17] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[17:18] #knownspace> ronn: *groan*
[17:18] #knownspace> ronn: (Yes, I know: I started it . . . )
[17:18] #knownspace> Dan: I can see a can-can line of PPs singing "Here Come The Brides" now. Thank you very much. Sheesh!
[17:19] #knownspace> NickE: omg
[17:21] #knownspace> EML: It'll be dinnertime here soon. any Destroyer of Worlds questions before I bail?
[17:21] #knownspace> ronn: It just dawned on me that our primitive PP could simultaneously carry a burning stick in one mouth and sing with the other . . .
[17:21] #knownspace> Jim: Who all is in DOW?
[17:22] #knownspace> ronn: DOW or BOW?
[17:22] #knownspace> EML: Jim: the main characters include Sigmund, Baedeker, and Ol't'ro (a Gw'oth ensemble mind). And a Pak.
[17:23] #knownspace> Dan: Got to go get dressed for work. Gotta leave a little early to buy some beer for tomorrow. Blue Laws really bite, don't they? LOL! I'll leave the chat running so I can read the log when I get home tomorrow morning.Bye!
[17:23] #knownspace> Jim: Thanks
[17:23] #knownspace> SeanS: l8r dan
[17:23] #knownspace> Jim: bye dan
[17:23] #knownspace> Jim: bye ed
[17:23] #knownspace> EML: ronn: I had in mind DOW. Since BOW isn't out yet, I'm hoping not many of you have read it.
[17:24] #knownspace> SeanS: are we going to see more of the Gw'oth?
[17:24] #knownspace> EML: Bye Dan and Jim.
[17:24] Nick_alternate has joined #knownspace
[17:24] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[17:24] #knownspace> Jim: bye, NCAA B-ball time
[17:25] #knownspace> ronn: I meant to be asking Jim whether he was asking about the already-out (and already-read by many) DOW or the upcoming BOW . . .
[17:25] #knownspace> EML: Sean: there's a lot about the Gw'oth in Destroyer and Betrayer ( and will also be in Fate, #5).
[17:25] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: just checking this works
[17:25] #knownspace> ronn: Nick: so far, so good.
[17:26] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: Ah fate, couldn't remember the name of #5 ta
[17:26] #knownspace> SeanS: have read destroyer. was wondering about betrayer and beyond... thanks
[17:26] #knownspace> EML: da nada
[17:26] #knownspace> dmac44: bye, Ed.

[17:26] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: ttfn
[17:27] #knownspace> EML: Ooay, calling it an afternoon. See y'all.
[17:27] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: Night Ed
[17:27] #knownspace> ronn: bye, Ed!
[17:27] #knownspace> SeanS: later ed
[17:27] #knownspace> oneukum: bye
[17:28] #knownspace> oneukum: it is getting late here. Good bye, people.
[17:28] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: Night Oliver
[17:28] #knownspace> ronn: bye, Oliver
[17:28] #knownspace> SeanS: la8r oliver
[17:28] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: wont be on a heck of a lot longer probably
[17:29] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah.. shame i had crap to do and wasnt really here till late
[17:29] #knownspace> dmac44: I'm heading out too. See you next month.

[17:29] #knownspace> SeanS: l8r dmac
[17:29] #knownspace> NickE: ttfn
[17:30] #knownspace> SeanS: night nick
[17:30] #knownspace> SeanS: saw about the new who
[17:31] #knownspace> NickE: not gone yet, was directed @ dmac44
[17:31] #knownspace> NickE: Yeah, promising
[17:31] #knownspace> ronn: who? what? ;)
[17:32] #knownspace> NickE: Dr Who
[17:32] #knownspace> NickE: new series started in UK tonight
[17:32] #knownspace> NickE: BBC America 17th afaik
[17:32] #knownspace> ronn: what about who?
[17:32] #knownspace> ronn: (obviously the last one didn't work)
[17:32] #knownspace> nedry__: it was good
[17:33] #knownspace> ronn: as in "who? what? when? where? why?"
[17:34] #knownspace> NickE: Sorry, I commented on it before you came in Ronn
[17:35] #knownspace> nedry__: who's on first
[17:35] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: Dr Who that is, new series
[17:35] #knownspace> SeanS: gf, now demanding food
[17:35] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: oh don't you start
[17:35] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: : -)
[17:35] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: <waves to Julie>

[17:35] #knownspace> nedry__: i used to watch abbott and costello every saturday morning
[17:36] #knownspace> ronn: Then they got window shades.
[17:36] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: Funny, they nevr show Abbot and Costello any more on UK TV
[17:36] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: used to all the time when I was young (70s)
[17:37] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: heh
[17:37] #knownspace> nedry__: It was on after outer limits
[17:37] #knownspace> nedry__: i think
[17:38] #knownspace> ronn: Since I hooked up the new TV I can't get the channel that shows old Outer Limits around 3 am any more. I guess I'm gonna have to finally put up an outside antenna . . . : (
[17:39] #knownspace> nedry__: I had to change the polarisation of mine and mess around with it because of the digital tv stuff
[17:39] #knownspace> nedry__: it's kind of no fun when it starts raining on you... and the roof is slate. It's like ice when it gets wet
[17:39] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: bloody digital....wouldn't mind if it worked properly
[17:40] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: still can't get a DAB signal
[17:40] #knownspace> nedry__: i had real trouble when they turned off the analog stuff
[17:40] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: (Swededn and Germany dropped DAB in 2005 as outdated tech!
[17:40] #knownspace> nedry__: heh. I need a new usb pen tuner to get HD.
[17:40] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: Have they turned it off already up your way?#
[17:40] #knownspace> nedry__: My Mac is my television
[17:41] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: not looking fwd to when analog goes off here
[17:41] #knownspace> ronn: I lost the local ABC and PBS affiliates at the changeover. Lost the NBC station temporarially last week but got it gack by adding a 50-foot roll of coax draped around the dining room as an antenna . . .
[17:41] #knownspace> nedry__: it works great now. There is a good website. if you put in your post code they tell you how to tune it in
[17:42] #knownspace> ronn: That was supposed to say "got it back," not be a comment on their programming . . .
[17:42] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: doesn't mean that you get a edecent signal
[17:43] #knownspace> nedry__: heh. I would have thought where you live you'd get a decent signal. Then I thought, I don't know where you life
[17:43] #knownspace> nedry__: live.
[17:43] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: latest retune has wiped ITV, C4 and 5 off digital reception here
[17:43] #knownspace> nedry__: that happened to me when they switched off the analog stuff
[17:44] #knownspace> nedry__: cause I was getting the signal from the wrong place
[17:44] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: near Banbury. Ought to be decent signal near to Oxford, but it sucks much of the time
[17:44] #knownspace> nedry__: there was a low power repeater on one polarisation and a really high power transmitter on the other one.
[17:44] #knownspace> nedry__: i was getting the low power one
[17:44] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: ah
[17:45] #knownspace> ronn: As I suggested before it happened: it's a conspiracy to make everyone get cable. I can't afford another $80/month (and going up all the time) for basic cable . . .
[17:45] #knownspace> nedry__: yeah. or satelitte
[17:45] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: well, we have a new antenna and coax wiring (fairly new) and while it improvded things a bit, we still get freezes and pixeling often
[17:46] #knownspace> nedry__: i replaced the cable because water kept leaking out of the old one
[17:46] #knownspace> ronn: The point is that some of us on fixed incomes can't afford that a month.
[17:46] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: Freesat is looking like a better option as time goes on if we can afford initial setup
[17:46] #knownspace> ronn: Nedry: If you were using the old one to carry water I think I see your problem . . . ;)
[17:47] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: Pying lots to watch mostly crap TV doesn't seem so great
[17:47] #knownspace> nedry__: heh. i replaced them earlier. the outer insulation was broken.
[17:47] #knownspace> nedry__: keep the water out of this place is a constant battle
[17:48] #knownspace> ronn: But as I also said there are lots of older folks on fixed incomes who use local TV as frex a source of information during tornado warnings, etc.
[17:49] #knownspace> nedry__: here, the government gave them grants to get digital tv boxes and stuff
[17:49] #knownspace> nedry__: the government gave this guy I knew a free computer. he turned it to cloning sky tv cards straight away!
[17:52] #knownspace> ronn: (1) The boxes may not work without a new antenna, and (2) When the power goes off due to a storm, so does the box . . .
[17:52] #knownspace> ronn: One local station is now saying that if your power goes off you can follow the weather info on-line, but then the people I'm talking about mostly don't have laptops or smart phones or anything else that gets the Internet and runs on batteries, either. (We are talking about people like your grandmother who is on Social Security . . . )
[17:53] #knownspace> ronn: Yeah, there are always some who take advantage of things to try to make a quick buck . . .
[17:53] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: (that was deliberate, just shut one browser as this seems stable)
[17:54] #knownspace> ronn: Nick: Which one is stable?
[17:55] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: Firefox but with a Flash client, not Java
[17:55] #knownspace> nedry__: that darn applet?
[17:55] #knownspace> nedry__: i'd really encourage folks to get a non-java irc applet
[17:55] #knownspace> nedry__: i mean program
[17:56] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: weird as the Java applet has been stable fo me for the last year or so in these chats
[17:56] #knownspace> nedry__: I didn't like it because it was slow
[17:57] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: eris works well, I just hadn't bookmarked it on this machine
[17:57] #knownspace> SeanS: eris has done quite well
[17:58] #knownspace> ronn: They apparently have started coming out with hand-held DTV receivers. Dunno how they work, much less how they would work during a thunder and lightning storm, and that's another over $100 to get one if they do, which could be a big expense for those who are just scraping by and for whom their old set with rabbit ears or when power goes off a radio with a TV audio band worked . . .
[17:59] #knownspace> ronn: eris?
[17:59] #knownspace> SeanS: the flash client
[17:59] #knownspace> SeanS: browse to and it loads up and asks for a nick
[17:59] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: http: //
[17:59] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: what San said
[17:59] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: Sean
[17:59] #knownspace> SeanS: ;)
[17:59] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: Sean San
[18:00] #knownspace> ronn: oh ok
[18:00] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: : -)
[18:00] #knownspace> ronn: didn't know it was called that
[18:02] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: well, been fun but it's getting late
[18:02] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: heading for sack
[18:02] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: night
[18:02] #knownspace> ronn: As I said earlier, after I found ChatZilla it has worked well for me, but I guess not everyone . . .
[18:03] #knownspace> ronn: bye, Nick!
[18:03] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: hadn't been an issu till tonigt for some reason
[18:03] #knownspace> Nick_alternate: anyway, night all
[18:08] #knownspace> SeanS: use what works. just trying to give multiple options
[18:18] #knownspace> ronn: the problem with that advice is when what used to work stops working with no information and nothing else works (not just in this case but in general)
[18:18] #knownspace> ronn: P.S. back now after feeding the cat . . .
[18:22] #knownspace> SeanS: made egg salad for my gf
[18:23] #knownspace> SeanS: i am not currently on the list but you can always email me.
[18:24] #knownspace> SeanS: actually on the list, just not taking delivery so you can look me up at larryniven-l
[18:26] #knownspace> ronn: Cat is probably lower-maintenance.
[18:26] #knownspace> ronn: (gf probably has other things to commend her);)
[18:26] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[18:27] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, she helped me in the shower when i broke my arm a few months ago... the cat version probably would not of measured up
[19:32] Lensman has joined #knownspace
[19:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Anybody still here?
[19:41] #knownspace> SeanS: I am but watching Final Four
[19:42] #knownspace> SeanS: dan is at work
[19:42] #knownspace> SeanS: tis late where nedry is
[19:42] #knownspace> SeanS: ronn may be
[19:43] #knownspace> SeanS: Larry and EML were in earlier
[19:49] #knownspace> SeanS: interesting comments on the topic
[19:49] #knownspace> SeanS: will send the log to mark tomorrow
[19:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Sorry I missed the chat. Was otherwise occupied.
[19:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Any good scenarios for transporting a #4 hull?
[19:50] #knownspace> SeanS: was at an easter egg hunt earlier myself. missed most so cant answer
[19:51] #knownspace> SeanS: think the most popular was a non human non PP race doing it and agreeing to selective mindwipe afterwords
[19:52] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL!
[19:53] #knownspace> SeanS: thats just one i saw late
[19:54] #knownspace> Lensman: That's a creative answer, altho hardly practical.
[19:54] #knownspace> SeanS: eml mentioned that with a trillion inhabitants, insane transport people shouldnt be that hard to find
[19:55] #knownspace> ronn: Paint it like an Easter egg and have a hunt for giant space children?
[19:55] #knownspace> ronn: Yes, I noticed I'm still signed in, though I've been doing other things, too.
[19:55] #knownspace> SeanS: i wonder if there is a number 5 hull that hasnt been mentioned
[19:57] #knownspace> Lensman: I thought the real question is: How do you transport a No. 4 hull? As far as piloting anything from the Fleet to Human Space, the Puppeteers could use robot piloted craft. If Humans can use robot piloted freighters, as specified in "Grendel", so can Puppeteers.
[19:59] #knownspace> SeanS: hmm, i guess well plotted courses could use robot piloted craft. mass sensor wont work.
[19:59] #knownspace> Lensman: I would guess the Puppeteers have to install temporary systems-- hyperdrive, life support, sensors, controls-- in a #4 hull to transport it, then remove the systems upon arrival at a General Products outlet near the customer.
[19:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Exactly, yes, robot pilots only work where the course is well surveyed.
[20:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Can't use a robot hyperdrive craft to go "Where no man... or Puppeteer... has gone before".
[20:03] #knownspace> ronn: But how often would you be delivering a hull to "where no ___ has gone before"? Presumably you are delivering it to a customer who ordered it. Unless there's a big market for gifts of GP hulls to be delivered as a surprise to the recipient . . . ?
[20:04] #knownspace> SeanS: heh... good smart ass comment ;)
[20:04] #knownspace> SeanS: i miss those
[20:08] #knownspace> ronn: Thanks . . . but the earlier part should be a point: A customer places an order and tells them where they are and where they want it delivered, and with something that big the address is probably not going to be in the middle of nowhere. Also, presumably with something that big and expensive GP would run a credit check on the buyer and confirm that they indeed exist and where they are . . .
[20:10] #knownspace> SeanS: good point
[20:14] #knownspace> ronn: Frex,I recall back when 500 GB hard drives were still very new and I ordered a couple of them on-line, giving them a valid card number to charge the order too, and before they filled the order someone from the company phoned to confirm that I was a real person and had indeed placed the order and it was indeed my name on the card, and that was for <$500. Dunno how much a GP hull goes for,...
[20:14] #knownspace> ronn: ...but it's probably more than the equivalent of that . . .
[20:15] #knownspace> ronn: "... charge the order to ..."
[20:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Why would Puppeteers agree to deliver a No. 4 hull directly to the customer? They'd say "You can pick it up at the nearest General Products outlet."
[20:16] #knownspace> Lensman: But most hulls wouldn't be delivered directly to the customer anyway. They would go to the spacecraft companies which install all the systems in the hulls.
[20:17] #knownspace> ronn: That, too. Although I was thinking about those commercials where people would order a new car on-line and have it delivered. (I've never done that, of course . . . )
[20:18] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm sure the car dealer makes sure his payment is secure before delivering the car!
[20:18] #knownspace> ronn: Good point (about the company that would install the systems).
[20:18] #knownspace> ronn: A-yup.
[20:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Altho obviously fraud is not impossible in such a case.
[20:21] #knownspace> ronn: Do we have any idea how much GP hulls sold for, even before the core explosion was discovered? IOW what we might compare buying one to today: a dozen roses? a car? an aircraft carrier?
[20:25] #knownspace> Lensman: 95% of spacecraft in Human Space, at one time, had GP hulls. They cannot have been hyper-expensive.
[20:25] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't recall any stipulation of the price.
[20:27] #knownspace> Lensman: But I always did wonder how the Puppeteers moved the /Long Shot/. Presumably it was built at the Fleet of Worlds; how was it delivered to Jinx? It had Human controls. Surely no Puppeteer would have piloted it? Or did some mad Puppeteer fly it to Jinx before they switched out the controls for Human ones?
[20:29] #knownspace> Lensman: I do see one possibility. The latest ...OF WORLDS books describes one spacecraft expanding its hyperdrive bubble to carry another ship. It seems possible that a specially built No. 4 hull with oversized engines might be able to "tow" a second No. 4 hull. It may be that the /Long Shot/ was transported to Human Space in that manner.
[20:37] #knownspace> ronn: Yeah, I don't think anyone suggested that . . .