Chat Log: April 5th 2008

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Apr 05 12:15:04 * Lensman has changed the topic to: Welcome to #knownspace

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Apr 05 13:38:07 <rimworlder> hey lensman - everyone!

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Apr 05 14:26:29 <Lensman> Hi RM!

Apr 05 14:44:08 * Hippy (~captlychee@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 14:44:25 <Lensman> Hello Hippy

Apr 05 14:44:38 <Hippy> Good afternoon, Lens, everyone

Apr 05 14:44:48 <Hippy> LOng time no chat

Apr 05 14:45:08 <Lensman> Good to see your typeface :)

Apr 05 14:45:47 <Hippy> Thanks. Good to hear your simulated voice on this Microsoft Agent thing

Apr 05 14:46:38 <Lensman> So, do I sound more like Darth Vader or Pee-Wee Herman? ;-)

Apr 05 14:47:54 <Hippy> OH, Darth. I've got the pitch turned way down and you're shaking the room. Like Barry White if he were a Cylon

Apr 05 14:48:17 <Hippy> I mean, a proper Cylon, not the New Wave ones that are conveniently and cheaply just like us

Apr 05 14:48:19 <Lensman> LOL!

Apr 05 14:48:48 <Hippy> Has the Inferno been on?

Apr 05 14:49:05 <Lensman> I forget, were you the one who posted last month that you couldn't see our comments because of sight problems?

Apr 05 14:49:49 <Lensman> No, Rimworlder and we two are the only ones who've posted today.

Apr 05 14:49:59 <rimworlder> yay it works!

Apr 05 14:50:17 <Hippy> Yeah, that was me. Fortunately my brother came up and installed this speaking thing, so at least I can now hear what you're saying

Apr 05 14:50:20 <Hippy> Hi, rimworlder

Apr 05 14:50:42 <rimworlder> omg - ceylon barry singing "you'll never know..."

Apr 05 14:50:43 <Lensman> Ho Rim! (I'd say "Rimmer" but that seems rude...) 8-O

Apr 05 14:50:45 <Hippy> Still, I go into surgery on April 17th, so that may improve the ol' sight

Apr 05 14:51:17 <rimworlder> if this were some other chat, that might get me beat up - or get me lots of offers

Apr 05 14:51:29 <Lensman> Hippy, are you not using Micro Satan Windows?

Apr 05 14:51:31 <rimworlder> Rim or steve will do

Apr 05 14:51:41 <Hippy> What, a Red Dwarf chat?

Apr 05 14:52:14 <rimworlder> something like that - I tried to hit both sides of the divide - rabidly anti to rabidly recruiting

Apr 05 14:52:16 <Hippy> Oh, yes, Windows with Narrator running, and Microsoft Text to Speech agent to read the IRC chat

Apr 05 14:52:30 <Lensman> Yah, Rimmer is from "Red Dwarf", RW equals RINGWORLD, so I guess we'll stick to Rim.

Apr 05 14:52:50 <rimworlder> ahh - saw a few episodes of RD, but never got into it

Apr 05 14:53:23 <Lensman> Hippy: Well Windows has that "handicapped" function, I've never used it, but isn't it supposed to make all displayed text really large?

Apr 05 14:53:27 <Hippy> It's a good show. The classic example of a chartacter-driven show

Apr 05 14:53:47 <rimworlder> yes - I liked what I saaw. not getting into it had more to do with time constraints than not liking it

Apr 05 14:54:09 <Lensman> Oh, you've missed something great! "Red Dwarf" is truly hilarious, at least after the first season, which IMHO is pretty dull.

Apr 05 14:54:22 <Hippy> You can make the display lext large, but on a bad eye day that's not even larg e enough. And it's difficult to read at five words per line

Apr 05 14:54:31 <rimworlder> didn't one of the main character actors also do another brit com?

Apr 05 14:54:32 <Hippy> Yes, they had to hit their stride

Apr 05 14:54:42 <rimworlder> chef or something?

Apr 05 14:54:54 <Hippy> Indeed. Chris Barrie, who played Rimmer, was in 'The Brittas Empire'

Apr 05 14:55:04 <Hippy> Lenny Henry was in 'Chef' but not in RD

Apr 05 14:55:05 <rimworlder> see - I saw it, lol

Apr 05 14:55:35 <rimworlder> I spent about 7 years without television also - conscious choice. The marriage brought the box back into the house

Apr 05 14:56:02 <rimworlder> (I had no idea the day was filled with so many hours)

Apr 05 14:56:53 <Hippy> You got that right. Imagine how crammed with useless minutes it is if you can't read

Apr 05 14:57:05 <rimworlder> lol

Apr 05 14:57:09 * Hippy didn't mean that to soujd like he'[s sorry for himself

Apr 05 14:57:21 <rimworlder> eye trouble I gather?

Apr 05 14:58:11 <Hippy> Yeah... The cornea is rejecting and they are going to remove it and my iris on the 17th. Then another cornea graft which will hopefully 'take' this time

Apr 05 14:59:02 <rimworlder> oy and scary. my eyeballs keep stretching more and more out of shape - but nothing that bad. I'm still using the medical procedure known in layman's terms as 'squinting'

Apr 05 14:59:16 <rimworlder> good luck

Apr 05 14:59:26 <Hippy> Has anyone been reading Jerry Pournelle's site? He is also going through a bad patch at the moment

Apr 05 14:59:33 <rimworlder> yes

Apr 05 14:59:47 <rimworlder> but he's soldiering on

Apr 05 15:00:08 <SeanS> i would expect no less from pournelle

Apr 05 15:00:56 <Hippy> Howdy, Sean

Apr 05 15:01:04 <Lensman> Finagle, going so blind I couldn't read is my worst nightmare. Earnest good wishes on your upcoming surgery Hippy, and if it doesn't go well, definitely look into one of those machines that electronically scans a book and automatically reads the text aloud.

Apr 05 15:01:05 <Hippy> Rim: do you know what is causing the stretching?

Apr 05 15:01:09 <SeanS> hey... just ambled in

Apr 05 15:01:27 <Lensman> Welcome Sean!

Apr 05 15:02:17 <Lensman> I read a passing comment about "Something is growing in Jerry P's brain", but haven't heard any details. Sounds ominious.

Apr 05 15:02:34 <Hippy> I'll be doing all that, Lens, definitely. Putting off buying reading sofftware for the PC till I see whether i need it, as it's $1600 to buy

Apr 05 15:03:10 <Lensman> Ouch! Hopefully there's a government assistance program to help with such a purchase.

Apr 05 15:04:09 <Lensman> Rim, you have a private message.

Apr 05 15:05:49 <Hippy> Sadly, there isn't. Tax deductible $1600, of course, but still a slight kick in the hip pocket

Apr 05 15:08:04 <Hippy> If I suddenly seem to go silent it's because this damn TTS agent will occasionally lock the machine up. But I shall be back in a few seconds if that happens

Apr 05 15:08:07 <Lensman> So, what's up with Pournelle?

Apr 05 15:09:02 <Hippy> He has some kind of tumour in his head. They have been treating it with radiation therapy and it seems to be going well, but I mean, Jesus, it's still a tumour!

Apr 05 15:09:21 <Lensman> No flup.

Apr 05 15:09:41 <Hippy> He's been describing his symptoms to his readers. Including some pretty awful problems with his speech

Apr 05 15:10:15 <Hippy> No treefodder indeed

Apr 05 15:10:34 <Lensman> Wow, speech problems-- that sounds very serious.

Apr 05 15:10:40 <Hippy> And what has been happening with Larry's Fuch's Dystrphy?

Apr 05 15:12:26 <Lensman> I'm not sure of the details, or exactly what Fuch's is. I know he's had multiple health problems, not sure if they are all eye related or not. Last month he didn't bring it up, and as I recall when I mentioned it he said something like it was a bit of a bother, but not too serious.

Apr 05 15:12:32 <rimworlder> hippy - astigmatism - first the right eye, then the left, now both just steadily getting worse. and no - I don't have a blanket diagnosis - I've been without health care for oh, about 25 years or so now

Apr 05 15:12:52 <rimworlder> lens - I answered the PM

Apr 05 15:13:51 <Hippy> Rim: just zoom up to Canada and get them to have a look at you :)

Apr 05 15:14:58 <Hippy> I looked up Fuch's on oneof the medical websites and it's something that can be cured with a cornea graft. Since I now have 54 000 000 frequent graft miles up, I was goingto tell him what to expet if he gets a graft

Apr 05 15:15:16 <rimworlder> lol

Apr 05 15:16:03 <rimworlder> hip - I'm not worried about it. It ended my paintball career, but I can still (squinting, some of the time) read the ticker on the bottom of the screen.

Apr 05 15:16:29 <Lensman> Rim: Yes I got your answer, you have another.

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Apr 05 15:17:35 <rimworlder> hi jim

Apr 05 15:17:49 <Lensman> I think Larry had one cornea graft and was scheduled to do the other. As I recall he had a bacterial infection from the first. Not sure how bad or if that's cleared up yet.

Apr 05 15:17:58 <Hippy> That's pretty good, Rim. I never had a paintball career and my last game of 'Battlefield 2' was a bit of a disasster

Apr 05 15:18:34 <Hippy> Bacterial infection? Eep!

Apr 05 15:18:51 <rimworlder> lol - I started playing in '83, had a top tournament team for a number of years, yada, yada. top 100 player, top 50 team of all time, yada yada. but when you can't make those long shots anymore...

Apr 05 15:20:37 <Lensman> Well DUH I just now realized Rimworlder is the fan who wrote "The Tnuctipun Aren't Done"

Apr 05 15:21:05 <rimworlder> well DUH, I just realized I was the guy who wrote it too!

Apr 05 15:21:06 * Lensman has changed the topic to: The Tnuctipun Aren't Done

Apr 05 15:21:12 <Hippy> Yeah. Much the ssame in computer games. Once you can't see well enoughto shoot yourself in the foot, it's time to get out

Apr 05 15:21:46 <Lensman>

Apr 05 15:21:51 <rimworlder> hippy - yep. the best team I played for disbanded at about the same time too, so I decided to "retire from my professional sports career", lol

Apr 05 15:22:06 <rimworlder> thanks lens

Apr 05 15:22:06 <Lensman> And I added a couple of illustrations to Rim's article, too.

Apr 05 15:22:13 <rimworlder> ooooo

Apr 05 15:23:08 <rimworlder> looks cool Lens. Thanks for that

Apr 05 15:23:13 <rimworlder> I hope it gets you some hits

Apr 05 15:23:18 <Hippy> It could've been a professional career, too. 'Gladiators' has just come bcak down here.

Apr 05 15:23:31 <Lensman> Yah, it sounded serious when I asked Larry about the infection, and then the next month... or two... it hadn't cleared up completely. That sounds serious! But if he can see well enough to participate in this chatroom, perhaps it's not as bad as it sounds.

Apr 05 15:23:50 <rimworlder> well, it was in the sense pro in the sense that the team was classed as pro

Apr 05 15:23:51 <Lensman> Rim: No, thank YOU for contributing the article!

Apr 05 15:24:04 <rimworlder> hey, I had to find something to write after paintball

Apr 05 15:24:52 <Lensman> I suggested to Rim that the Puppeteers relationship with their Companions might be another indication of genetic manipulation, but he didn't think that fit his thesis.

Apr 05 15:25:38 <rimworlder> lens, it might very well be a part of the whole, but I haven't yet figured out exactly how to integrate it.

Apr 05 15:26:13 <rimworlder> my thoughts were that if the companions are part of the equation, they're hiding genetic material in there

Apr 05 15:26:52 <rimworlder> and you know what - that might be the sole reason for having created them to begin with

Apr 05 15:26:53 <Hippy> I am so out of touch with these theories. I still haven't read Desinty's Forge or Fleet of Worlds :(

Apr 05 15:27:17 <rimworlder> Hippy: synopsis. the Puppeteers are the Tnuctipun.

Apr 05 15:27:50 <Hippy> Ah... Well, the idea has precedent, I'll give it that

Apr 05 15:27:59 <rimworlder> please xplain

Apr 05 15:28:00 <Lensman> Well, Hippy, best wishes for your eyesight to improve enough that you can read FLEET OF WORLDS.

Apr 05 15:28:09 <rimworlder> second that!

Apr 05 15:28:10 <Lensman> There's certainly food for discussion there.

Apr 05 15:28:56 <Lensman> I just read a longish review of FOW... was that yours, Rim? Sorry, I'm corresponding with too many Niven fans.

Apr 05 15:29:06 <Hippy> Thank you, both of you. It's second on my list after DF. I sort of feel I owe it Paul Chafe to read his one first as it came out first

Apr 05 15:29:08 <rimworlder> was it on sfreader?

Apr 05 15:29:41 <Hippy> (Of course, I have't read MKW 10 yet and that was written by one of my own countrymen)

Apr 05 15:29:43 <Lensman> Anyway, the article mentioned the societal implications from something so simple as the Puppeteers elimination (defecation) habits.

Apr 05 15:29:52 <rimworlder> yes, that was me

Apr 05 15:30:12 <Lensman> I mean, the review of FOW mentioned that.

Apr 05 15:30:38 <rimworlder> that little bit there blew me away. it was SO obvious, and yet it had never occurred to me

Apr 05 15:30:51 <Hippy> What the? What do you we know of puppeteer defecation habits?

Apr 05 15:31:05 <rimworlder> its in FOW - do you want a spoiler?

Apr 05 15:31:15 <Lensman> I found it quite interesting myself. "Only herbivores eliminate where they eat." Hmmm...

Apr 05 15:31:19 <Hippy> Oh, okay.

Apr 05 15:31:31 * Hippy hopes FOW will be on taped books one day...

Apr 05 15:31:54 <Lensman> Hippy: I dunno, do you want us to spell out all the details? That would be rather a spoiler.

Apr 05 15:32:05 <Hippy> Or if Ed turns up today I can quiz him

Apr 05 15:32:46 <rimworlder> there's so much implied by that passage: imagine being the puppeteer version of Crapper...

Apr 05 15:32:54 <Hippy> No, no. I want to discocer it all for myself. I remain confident I'll be able to by the beginning of June :)

Apr 05 15:32:55 <Lensman> Oh flup, I forgot to send Ed a reminder.

Apr 05 15:33:01 <rimworlder> oh nos

Apr 05 15:33:42 <rimworlder> lens - was it an ok review?

Apr 05 15:34:28 <Lensman> Huh, you're fishing for compliments right Rim?

Apr 05 15:34:49 * Fred (~Fred@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 15:35:02 <rimworlder> no - honest opinion. I'll fish for compliments on the TTAD piece, lol

Apr 05 15:35:08 * Fred is now known as Fred_of_Worlds

Apr 05 15:35:14 <rimworlder> lol fred

Apr 05 15:35:22 <Lensman> You can see my very short review/summary here:

Apr 05 15:35:26 <Lensman>

Apr 05 15:36:31 <Lensman> I got a compliment from Ed that my piece didn't give too much away, which was my intent. I'm aghast at how many of the books secrets are spoilt in reviews and even the cover blurb!

Apr 05 15:37:04 <Hippy> Afternoon, Fred

Apr 05 15:37:08 <rimworlder> nice piece. I didn't break it down into 'two intertwined plots'

Apr 05 15:37:11 <Fred_of_Worlds> even just saying how many worlds in the Fleet is a spoiler

Apr 05 15:37:14 <Fred_of_Worlds> hey hippy

Apr 05 15:37:20 <Lensman> Anyway, Rim, you review was very thoughtful and I think almost 100% on the mark.

Apr 05 15:37:24 <rimworlder> thanks

Apr 05 15:37:48 <SeanS> yo fred

Apr 05 15:37:56 <Fred_of_Worlds> hey sean

Apr 05 15:37:57 <rimworlder> the review editor is Pete Allen of Creative Guy Publishing. He's a very good editor

Apr 05 15:38:03 <Fred_of_Worlds> thanks for the tip on the FoW chat

Apr 05 15:38:06 <Lensman> Fred: Indeed, that's why I was careful to specify only Hearth and "a few" farming worlds in my short review.

Apr 05 15:38:09 <rimworlder> but then so is Lensman

Apr 05 15:38:10 <SeanS> i have some errands to run... will be nack on in about 45 minutes or so

Apr 05 15:38:19 * You are now known as SeanLog

Apr 05 15:38:27 <SeanLog> back on

Apr 05 15:38:37 <Fred_of_Worlds> you're back on?

Apr 05 15:38:39 <Fred_of_Worlds> already?

Apr 05 15:38:44 <Fred_of_Worlds> that was a fast 45 minutes

Apr 05 15:38:56 <Lensman> Ah! Egoboo, a fan's feast. :)

Apr 05 15:38:57 <rimworlder> If I can, I'll recommend the next book I'm reviewing - Space Vulture by Wolf & Myers

Apr 05 15:39:00 <rimworlder> yes

Apr 05 15:43:23 <Lensman> I think it's interesting about how many fan theories there are regarding Tnuctipun and/or Thrintun which survived into the Known Space era. Of course, with the precedent of WORLD OF PTAVVS perhaps it's not that much of a stretch. Still, as I've said, one has to come up with a logical reason why apparently very arrogant species would hide. I think Rim came up with a good reason for that.

Apr 05 15:43:54 <Lensman> When I say "fan theories" I'm including one or two KMW stories where the author did the same.

Apr 05 15:44:33 <rimworlder> frankly I think that its just the basic concept of 'slaver empire' that fuels the speculation.

Apr 05 15:45:06 <rimworlder> add in a bit of 'ancient alien civilizations' and you've encompassed just about everything SF

Apr 05 15:45:47 <Hippy> Or people's desire not to see a good character get killed off. You introduce an alien species, devoea whole novel to them, and now nobody wants to believe they're gone

Apr 05 15:46:03 <rimworlder> hippy, yes

Apr 05 15:46:25 <Fred_of_Worlds> aren't ressurection stories a mainstay of fanfic?

Apr 05 15:46:32 <Fred_of_Worlds> as soon as anybody's dead . . .

Apr 05 15:47:21 <Hippy> Not only fanfic. What about Christianity?

Apr 05 15:47:34 <Fred_of_Worlds> Christianity isn't fanfic?

Apr 05 15:47:39 <Fred_of_Worlds> :)

Apr 05 15:47:39 <Lensman> Yah, the idea of an ancient civilization with advanced technology goes back much farther than modern SF. It's the Atlantis myth.

Apr 05 15:48:03 <rimworlder> LOL

Apr 05 15:48:03 <Fred_of_Worlds> And why isn't George Pal's Atlantis the Lost Continent on DVD?

Apr 05 15:48:08 <Fred_of_Worlds> I loved that movi

Apr 05 15:48:11 <Fred_of_Worlds> e

Apr 05 15:48:22 <Lensman> LOL! Hmmm... Carpenter got bedeviled for inventing an stfnal religion.

Apr 05 15:48:46 <rimworlder> Fred - that's what I HATE about the changing media. Some yutz decides that MY favorite movies aren't worth converting from video to DVD

Apr 05 15:49:07 <rimworlder> wasn't it carpentier?

Apr 05 15:49:30 <Hippy> Fred: youre not thinking of Irwin Allen's Atlantis: The Lost Continetn are you?

Apr 05 15:49:39 <Fred_of_Worlds> The other one I don't get, which I've bitched about on usenet, is films that show up with nice new letterbox prints on TCM

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Apr 05 15:49:43 <Fred_of_Worlds> and they show them ONCE

Apr 05 15:49:47 <Fred_of_Worlds> and never again

Apr 05 15:49:48 <Lensman> Thankfully most movies are now out on DVD, or at least most of the non-crappy ones. "The African Queen" is a very glaring exceptions, the Laser Rangers have been wanting to do that movie for years.

Apr 05 15:49:51 <Hippy> People getting zapped at the end of it with some kindof solar ray?

Apr 05 15:49:54 <Fred_of_Worlds> and they aren't released on DVD

Apr 05 15:49:59 <Fred_of_Worlds> that's it

Apr 05 15:50:00 <EML> Greetings and salutations.

Apr 05 15:50:02 <Fred_of_Worlds> George Pal

Apr 05 15:50:07 <rimworlder> hi

Apr 05 15:50:11 <Hippy> Howdy, Ed! We were justa talking about you

Apr 05 15:50:15 <Fred_of_Worlds> hey EML

Apr 05 15:50:19 <Lensman> Welcome Ed!

Apr 05 15:50:32 <EML> FoW ... I *like* it.

Apr 05 15:50:38 <Fred_of_Worlds> Around the World Under the Sea was a case in point.

Apr 05 15:50:42 <rimworlder> I haven't been able to find several good, old movies

Apr 05 15:50:48 <rimworlder> can't remember the titles now though

Apr 05 15:50:56 <Fred_of_Worlds> One beautiful letterbox airing on TCM, years ago, gone forever

Apr 05 15:51:00 <rimworlder> Hi Ed. Great job on FOW

Apr 05 15:51:08 <EML> Netflix has a susprisingly good collection.

Apr 05 15:51:23 <EML> Hi, Rim. Thanks for the feedback.

Apr 05 15:51:24 <rimworlder> here's one - Hopscotch

Apr 05 15:51:54 <Lensman> Oh? "Hopscotch" isn't out? That's another on the Laser Rangers' "short list".

Apr 05 15:51:54 <rimworlder> I've got a review up on sfreader, but had to confess that I have not read anything else by you - but I will be now

Apr 05 15:52:22 <EML> I found some movies on netflix I'd wanted to see for years -- and in a few cases, I would've been better off never having seen 'em. Og, well ;-)

Apr 05 15:52:28 <Fred_of_Worlds> heh

Apr 05 15:52:46 <Lensman> LOL! Well, you have to see the bad ones to be able to appreciate the good ones.

Apr 05 15:52:50 <rimworlder> I'm OC with many movies. the wife hates it when I quote lines back

Apr 05 15:52:56 <Fred_of_Worlds> I signed up for a movie package on COX last week. Getting Encore westerns, but also some stuff like IFC

Apr 05 15:53:11 <Fred_of_Worlds> was amazed they're showing 70s blaxplotation films uncut

Apr 05 15:53:24 <EML> Rimworlder: the SFreader review is yours? Excellent review. I happened across it last night.

Apr 05 15:53:27 <Lensman> And that's no joke. Until I saw Pendragon's "The War of the Worlds" I never understood how critical editing was to a good... or even mediocre... film.

Apr 05 15:53:29 <rimworlder> hey - with Obama running that might become a regular thing

Apr 05 15:53:35 <rimworlder> thanks

Apr 05 15:53:45 <Fred_of_Worlds> which is pendragons?

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Apr 05 15:53:54 <EML> Have I missed Larry yet today?

Apr 05 15:53:57 <Fred_of_Worlds> is that the C Thomas Howell version?

Apr 05 15:54:03 <rimworlder> no, don't thinkg so

Apr 05 15:54:20 * FlyingAway has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 05 15:54:34 <Hippy> Well, Fred, I'll be jiggered. I've always thought that Irwin Allen. But according to the IMDB it's out on DVD

Apr 05 15:54:41 <Fred_of_Worlds> what?

Apr 05 15:54:42 <Lensman>

Apr 05 15:54:56 <rimworlder> Ed - I don't want to know who wrote what, but I would be interested in a description of the collaboration process you two used

Apr 05 15:55:00 <Lensman> Has to be seen to be believed... that is, believe how bad a movie can be.

Apr 05 15:55:13 <Lensman> Larry has not beed in yet.

Apr 05 15:55:30 <Hippy> If your Encore is anything like ours here, anything they show will be on DVD

Apr 05 15:55:45 <Lensman> "been in yet"

Apr 05 15:55:56 <Lensman> (Ebonics beed very good to me...)

Apr 05 15:56:10 <EML> Rimworlder: that's covered in the interview at

Apr 05 15:56:16 <Fred_of_Worlds> bad hippy

Apr 05 15:56:18 <rimworlder> lol lens - ebonics - haven't heard that one in a while

Apr 05 15:56:20 <Fred_of_Worlds> it's out on VHS

Apr 05 15:56:23 <Fred_of_Worlds> not dvd

Apr 05 15:56:28 <rimworlder> Ed - thanks, I'll take a look

Apr 05 15:56:31 <Fred_of_Worlds> you got my hopes up

Apr 05 15:56:39 <Fred_of_Worlds> now I'm all messed up inside :(

Apr 05 15:56:59 <EML> And then there's the Spielberg War of the Worlds. Gag. Barf! Puuuuuuke.

Apr 05 15:57:04 <Fred_of_Worlds> yes

Apr 05 15:57:10 <Fred_of_Worlds> to what ed said

Apr 05 15:57:35 <Fred_of_Worlds> changing the plugs in your car fixes EMP damage

Apr 05 15:57:37 <Fred_of_Worlds> gotta love it

Apr 05 15:57:49 <rimworlder> I may offend here, but I can't think of more than two 'based on the story' sf movies ever made that weren't blech

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Apr 05 15:58:00 <Fred_of_Worlds> and after 10 solid minute of NO ELECTRICAL DEVICE WILL WORK

Apr 05 15:58:08 <Fred_of_Worlds> camcorders are fine

Apr 05 15:58:08 <Lensman> No, actually it was changing the soleniod. Science made DEEPLY stupid...

Apr 05 15:58:19 <Fred_of_Worlds> guess he had the springloaded kind

Apr 05 15:58:24 <EML> Enemy Mine was pretty good, I thought.

Apr 05 15:58:24 <Hippy> A very succinct review, Ed

Apr 05 15:58:31 * Hippy has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Apr 05 15:58:32 <Fred_of_Worlds> oh, yeah, soleniod (as in robots)

Apr 05 15:58:50 <Fred_of_Worlds> I preferred Enemy Mine when it was called Robinson Crusoe on Mars :)

Apr 05 15:59:04 <rimworlder> lol

Apr 05 15:59:08 <Lensman> Actually there were a number of very good things about Spielberg's WotW. Too bad they were so thoroughly spoilt by the stupid things.

Apr 05 15:59:38 <Fred_of_Worlds> there was gene barry and ann robinson at the end

Apr 05 15:59:43 <rimworlder> here's what I can't understand (I mean I do, but I can't accept it) why can't you just make the damn movie based on the damn book?

Apr 05 15:59:44 * Hippy (~captlychee@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 15:59:47 <Fred_of_Worlds> is 'two' a number?

Apr 05 15:59:59 <Fred_of_Worlds> because, rimmy, and I'm quite serious here

Apr 05 16:00:04 <Fred_of_Worlds> Hollywood doesn't read

Apr 05 16:00:07 <EML> Blade Runner wasn't bad. And I liked the 1984 (David Lynch) Dune. That's three.

Apr 05 16:00:12 <rimworlder> WOTW took place in the 1800s - plenty of period pieces take place in the 1800s

Apr 05 16:00:29 <rimworlder> fred - yes, like I said, can't accept it.

Apr 05 16:00:32 <Hippy> Goddamn software causing peer connection crap or whatever it is!

Apr 05 16:00:41 <Fred_of_Worlds> The Disney Tarzan is a great case in point.

Apr 05 16:00:50 <Fred_of_Worlds> They watched every damn Tarzan film every made

Apr 05 16:00:57 <Fred_of_Worlds> but nobody cracked open the book

Apr 05 16:01:05 <rimworlder> EML - blade was one on my list - Dune definately not. the ending killed it for me. Rain on Arrakis?

Apr 05 16:01:18 <Lensman> Rim: I think movie producers think SF has to be dumbed down for a movie audience. Look at "Spawn"-- fer Finagle's sake, all they had to do was use dramatic elements from the comic storyline! But NOOOO they had to dumb it down. Grrrr...

Apr 05 16:01:45 <Fred_of_Worlds> I think movie producers have to dumb it down for themselves

Apr 05 16:01:46 <rimworlder> lens - I put it down to the wolf theory: they HAVE to piss on it, otherwise it doesn't smell like them

Apr 05 16:01:53 <Fred_of_Worlds> hah

Apr 05 16:01:56 <EML> The rain at the end of Dune was a metaphor. (A man's reach should exceed his grasp, else what's a meta phor?)

Apr 05 16:02:10 <Lensman> LOL! An ex-girlfriend of mine said "They just killed every sandworm on Arrikis..." at the end of that stupid "Dune" movie.

Apr 05 16:02:15 <Fred_of_Worlds> I thought it was an homage to the stupid ending of Andromeda Strain

Apr 05 16:02:28 <Fred_of_Worlds> or the stupid ending of Day of the Triffids

Apr 05 16:02:38 <rimworlder> Ed - I know. but for me it was a ruinous metaphor. they just destroyed all the spice and killed any chance of a sequel

Apr 05 16:02:48 <Fred_of_Worlds> LOOK! WATER KILLS THE PLANTS!

Apr 05 16:03:12 <Lensman> Hmmmm... I thought "Andromeda" followed the book pretty well, other than leaving out bunches of stuff.

Apr 05 16:03:18 <EML> shameless promo alert: I wrote short stories called the Day of the RFIDs and the Night of the RFIDs.

Apr 05 16:03:23 <rimworlder> and the 'sound weapon' substituting for uber martial arts skills

Apr 05 16:03:23 <Lensman> Did they change the ending of "Andromeda"?

Apr 05 16:03:27 <Fred_of_Worlds> yes

Apr 05 16:03:42 <rimworlder> ed - radio frequency...?

Apr 05 16:03:42 <Fred_of_Worlds> "suddenly it rained, killing all Andromeda everywhere forever, the end"

Apr 05 16:03:49 <EML> Umm, guys -- who says the rain was global?

Apr 05 16:04:03 <Lensman> LOL! Ed, where can we find those?

Apr 05 16:04:15 <EML> yup, RFID = radio frequency identification.

Apr 05 16:04:17 <Hippy> Ah, the ol' 'Day of the Triffids' Now there was a stupid ending

Apr 05 16:04:21 * FlyingAway has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 05 16:04:22 <Fred_of_Worlds> same thing with the Triffids. LOOK! FIRE HOSES KILL THE PLANTS!

Apr 05 16:04:23 <rimworlder> Ed - I'm not going to argue taste in movies. I think we can all agree that Hollywood has not generally been kind to SF

Apr 05 16:04:52 * FlyingAway (~Carol@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 16:05:06 <rimworlder> does anyone else realize that (Princess) Irulan is an anagram of Urinal?

Apr 05 16:05:12 <Fred_of_Worlds> although the all time howler in Hollywood history was last week on SMALLVILLE

Apr 05 16:05:20 <EML> Lens: "Day of the RFIDs" was firts published in the antho Future Washington and is in my collection Cretaive Destruction. You can get the standalone on fictionswise.

Apr 05 16:05:21 <Fred_of_Worlds> they're trying to find the evil robot BRAINIAC

Apr 05 16:05:26 <Hippy> Afternoon, CArol

Apr 05 16:05:37 <Fred_of_Worlds> Clark says "If only we knew what his power source was"

Apr 05 16:05:39 <EML> Oops: Creative Destruction.

Apr 05 16:05:49 <Fred_of_Worlds> Kara says, thoughtfully . . . "could it be . . energy???"

Apr 05 16:06:03 <EML> "Night of the RFIDs" is just out, in the May Analog.

Apr 05 16:06:10 <Fred_of_Worlds> Armed with that, they set google earth to display 'energy'

Apr 05 16:06:16 <Fred_of_Worlds> and quickly track him down

Apr 05 16:06:51 <rimworlder> brb

Apr 05 16:06:58 <Lensman> LOL! Yah, that was pretty stupid. Still, I think "Signs" competes for that. The aliens react to tapwater like it's concentrated acid? Umm... hey fellas, didja know our air has a significant amount of water vapor in it? Guess not, huh.

Apr 05 16:07:01 <Fred_of_Worlds> Based on that, the network fired the producers, and put the idiots that wrote that episode in charge of the series

Apr 05 16:07:34 <rimworlder> lol

Apr 05 16:07:53 <EML> Re Signs: and the aliens who navigated interstellar space needed crop signs to find their way around Earth?!?

Apr 05 16:08:21 <rimworlder> and the alien invasion was defeated with a baseball bat

Apr 05 16:08:22 <Fred_of_Worlds> I react to my tapwater like it's concentrated acid. I'll barely feed it to the plants. :)

Apr 05 16:08:59 <Hippy> amen to that, Fred

Apr 05 16:09:03 <EML> How could the aliens possibly know Earth had a lot of water? That's too hard a problem, surely.

Apr 05 16:09:37 <Lensman> ED: LOL!

Apr 05 16:09:39 <Fred_of_Worlds> obNiven: aliens that cruise past Saturn where the water comes prepackaged and nobody's shooting at you

Apr 05 16:09:40 <Hippy> Well, it was the luoride they wre reacting to

Apr 05 16:09:54 <rimworlder> well, look at V. they all came here to steal out water. like they couldn't find any anywhere else in the galaxy

Apr 05 16:10:25 <Lensman> Rim: Yah I'm surprised how many people like "V". I find it deeply stupid.

Apr 05 16:10:30 <Hippy> IFred: I always thought of that as Steven Barnes observation

Apr 05 16:10:49 <Fred_of_Worlds> might be. It's in a Niven collection

Apr 05 16:10:53 <EML> V was just a reason to admire Diana in her latex suit. Seven of Nine before her time.

Apr 05 16:10:59 <Fred_of_Worlds> N-Space or one of those

Apr 05 16:11:19 <Fred_of_Worlds> My favorite V moment was when the hot blonde Visitor took off her jumpsuit

Apr 05 16:11:19 <Hippy> The problem with questioning why aliens do things is that you assume they think like we do

Apr 05 16:11:31 <Fred_of_Worlds> and has a FULL BODY human suit on underneath

Apr 05 16:11:50 <Fred_of_Worlds> that was tied with the twin Visitors both wearing the same human mask

Apr 05 16:11:53 <Lensman> IIRC there's a reference to the Fithp space drive twisting one of Saturn's rings. /Footfall/.

Apr 05 16:11:58 <rimworlder> FOW - I remember that. IIRC, it was a loooooong zipper scene

Apr 05 16:12:08 <rimworlder> lens - yes

Apr 05 16:12:14 <EML> aliens can have different motivations than us. starfaring aliens ought not to be criminally stupid.

Apr 05 16:12:22 <Fred_of_Worlds> just criminal

Apr 05 16:12:34 <rimworlder> EML - unless its comedy

Apr 05 16:12:56 <rimworlder> Some of Eric Frank Russels aliens were monumentally stupid

Apr 05 16:12:58 <EML> rim: true.

Apr 05 16:13:07 <Hippy> I tend to ignore the series when it comes to 'V'. That had no redeeeming qualities at all

Apr 05 16:13:16 <Fred_of_Worlds> I was never sure what Ming the Canadian Accountant was up to in the new Flash Gordon either

Apr 05 16:13:27 <Lensman> Well, there's another problem I had with "V". They're alien enough that they can stretch their jaws out and swallow small animals whole, yet by just putting on a mask and jumpsuit they can pass for human. Umm humm... Right.

Apr 05 16:13:30 <rimworlder> I avoided that one entirely

Apr 05 16:13:43 <Fred_of_Worlds> he seemed to need water, which was flowing in great quantity through the city, but couldn't figure out how to purify it

Apr 05 16:13:59 <Fred_of_Worlds> any spacefaring race that can't purify water has missed a tutorial someplace

Apr 05 16:14:31 <EML> Very few TV shows or movies will spend what it takes to make a convincing alien. Witness all the humanoids on Star Trek (pick you iteration).

Apr 05 16:14:49 <Lensman> "Flash Gordon". Well, I forced myself to watch the entire first episode, but I've had NO desire to watch anymore. I can't even call it a "travesty", it's not that close to the real FG.

Apr 05 16:14:50 * Ronn (~Ronn@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 16:14:54 <rimworlder> yes, but that's changing with cgi

Apr 05 16:14:57 <Fred_of_Worlds> you saying the Tribbles weren't convincing?

Apr 05 16:15:45 <SolBelter> that'a why the horta was so well received, even for being someone crawling horizontally .>> ALIen!

Apr 05 16:15:49 <Hippy> The problem with convincing aliens is that they don't act human enough to get any drama out of them. When they do act human enough to get any drama out of them people then accuse them of being 'too human' or 'humans in rubber suits', though

Apr 05 16:15:57 <Fred_of_Worlds> the Horta rocked

Apr 05 16:16:03 <EML> Call me a curmudgeon, but I hate Tribbles (and Ewoks). There's cute and then there's nauseous.

Apr 05 16:16:06 <Lensman> Someone criticized "Battlestar Galactica" for having Cylons indistinguishable from humans, but personally I think that's one of the show's strong points.

Apr 05 16:16:11 <Fred_of_Worlds> Kirk VS Lasagna!

Apr 05 16:16:14 <EML> Synapse mifire. who/what are Horta?

Apr 05 16:16:22 <Fred_of_Worlds> Star Trek

Apr 05 16:16:27 <Fred_of_Worlds> The Devil in the Dark

Apr 05 16:16:31 <Fred_of_Worlds> tunneling alien

Apr 05 16:16:36 <SolBelter> original trek - episode the cr

Apr 05 16:16:37 <Fred_of_Worlds> laying silcon eggs

Apr 05 16:16:50 <jim_stiles> ST-TOS alien: silicon based life

Apr 05 16:17:03 <SolBelter> eature that burrowed thru rock, killing minersr

Apr 05 16:17:08 <EML> thanks, various. the pre-Kirk pilot episaode?

Apr 05 16:17:10 <Lensman> It's very, very difficult to do CGI well enough to be convincing and convey emotion. LOTR did it brilliantly with Gollum, but how many TV shows can do that on their budget?

Apr 05 16:17:16 <Fred_of_Worlds> looked like a molten lasagna throw rug with a short guy underneath it

Apr 05 16:17:25 <Fred_of_Worlds> No, that's THE CAGE

Apr 05 16:17:45 <SolBelter> ...protecting the ggs from being mined

Apr 05 16:17:47 <Lensman> Ed: No, "Devil in the Dark" was a regular Classic Star Trek episode.

Apr 05 16:18:00 <Fred_of_Worlds>

Apr 05 16:18:08 <EML> May I segue into aliens in the next FLEET book?

Apr 05 16:18:13 <Fred_of_Worlds>

Apr 05 16:18:19 * SolBelter nods to Lensman

Apr 05 16:18:35 <Lensman> I still like "Devil" even if the alien was just a blanket thrown over an extra. The story worked.

Apr 05 16:18:43 <SolBelter> SURE EML!-

Apr 05 16:19:02 <Fred_of_Worlds> hey, it wasn't an extra. It was Jano Prohaska

Apr 05 16:19:02 <Lensman> Ed: You have our attention!

Apr 05 16:19:03 <rimworlder> yes, please segue. note: all of the ST original episodes are now up on paramounts website

Apr 05 16:19:04 * Hippy afk briefly to get acoffee. It's too early to function with out one

Apr 05 16:19:12 <Fred_of_Worlds> he built the thing. And played the Mugatu!

Apr 05 16:19:38 <Fred_of_Worlds> and now, "Aliens in Fred of Worlds"

Apr 05 16:19:39 <rimworlder> hippy, I'm with you - too late in the day to be without one

Apr 05 16:20:21 <EML> Okay. As most of you know, there's Fleet of Worlds (out now) and Juggler of Worlds (out in [recently rescheduled] September.

Apr 05 16:20:33 <rimworlder> breathless 'uhuh'

Apr 05 16:20:44 <Lensman> Yes...

Apr 05 16:20:47 <EML> Larry & I recently signed to do a third: Destroyer of Worlds.

Apr 05 16:20:55 <Lensman> HOORAY!

Apr 05 16:21:00 <rimworlder> "I am become death..."

Apr 05 16:21:01 <Fred_of_Worlds> yay!

Apr 05 16:21:05 <rimworlder> woohoo

Apr 05 16:21:10 <SolBelter> shiva ...

Apr 05 16:21:10 <Lensman> "Shiva..."

Apr 05 16:21:24 <Fred_of_Worlds> I'm thinking the bad guy from THOR myself

Apr 05 16:21:32 <jim_stiles> Yes, is this a reference to Shiva?

Apr 05 16:21:34 <Lensman> SB are you a "Destroyer" fan?

Apr 05 16:22:00 <EML> All three have Puppeters, of course. Juggler brings in Outsiders. Destroyer brings in the Pak.

Apr 05 16:22:08 <rimworlder> wow

Apr 05 16:22:09 <SolBelter> not the sinanju destroyer :)

Apr 05 16:22:22 <SolBelter> Pak! yay

Apr 05 16:22:42 <Fred_of_Worlds> I kept waiting for the aliens in FoW to turn out to be proto Outsiders

Apr 05 16:22:43 <Lensman> "Anticipation... anticipation is making me wait..."

Apr 05 16:23:08 <EML> As to Shiva ... I'm familiar with the quote and Teller's use of it.

Apr 05 16:23:10 <EML> As to any intersection with the plot, I'll admit only to liking the phrase.

Apr 05 16:23:16 <rimworlder> I think I'm suffering from most of the symptoms of arrested changeover...

Apr 05 16:23:17 <SolBelter> ( i was a science advisor to one of the Destroyer ghostwriters tho...)

Apr 05 16:23:41 <Lensman> Some of us thought the G'woth (sp?) were related to Jotaki, but Ed pointed out they're fundamentally different.

Apr 05 16:23:50 <EML> And also in Destroyer (back by popular demand), the Gw'oth.

Apr 05 16:24:11 <rimworlder> they're going to be building themselves right out of the atmosphere

Apr 05 16:24:25 <SolBelter> ...with their accelerated learning/research...

Apr 05 16:24:27 <Lensman> SB: That would be a "Yes" then. :)

Apr 05 16:24:34 <EML> rim: sorry, no plot points today.

Apr 05 16:24:51 <rimworlder> no, just speculation on my part

Apr 05 16:25:27 <rimworlder> or were you telling me to shut up?

Apr 05 16:25:28 <EML> And for those who weren't in the room that day ... the Gw'oth have no genetic relationship to the Jokoti.

Apr 05 16:25:30 <rimworlder> lol

Apr 05 16:25:31 * NickE (~NickE@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 16:25:42 <NickE> meep

Apr 05 16:25:43 * Hippy has returned

Apr 05 16:25:52 <rimworlder> welcome and welcome back

Apr 05 16:25:52 <Hippy> Morning, NickE

Apr 05 16:25:57 <EML> Simple point: Jokoti adults walk about in air. Gw'oth are entirely aquatic.

Apr 05 16:26:03 * Lensman has changed the topic to: DESTROYER OF WORLDS

Apr 05 16:26:09 <NickE> wo totally forgot about the chat

Apr 05 16:26:15 <rimworlder> rimworlder sniffles

Apr 05 16:26:37 <NickE> hi all

Apr 05 16:26:40 <Fred_of_Worlds>

Apr 05 16:26:53 <Lensman> Well of course we're all dying to know if DOW will reveal whether or not the protectors are a result of genetic engineering, but of course we don't want you to tell us the answer!

Apr 05 16:26:59 <SolBelter> <== Lensman reminded me, or i'd have missed the chat too [thx, dave]

Apr 05 16:27:25 <NickE> ah so the 3rd book has a name. Shiny news Ed!

Apr 05 16:27:26 <EML> DoW is now the topic? Oh, the PRESSURE.

Apr 05 16:27:39 <Lensman> SB: I'm getting my handles mixed up. Are you Spike?

Apr 05 16:27:42 <rimworlder> lol - you can handle it

Apr 05 16:28:04 <EML> Nick: it has a name, a contract, and ... Pak.

Apr 05 16:28:10 <SolBelter> projectd DoW release date one yr from Sept?

Apr 05 16:28:19 <NickE> yes indeedy! Neat

Apr 05 16:28:27 <rimworlder> there goes my book budget

Apr 05 16:28:30 <NickE> heh

Apr 05 16:28:47 <NickE> least it'll go on teh good stuff

Apr 05 16:28:52 <EML> DoW release? too soon to tell. Personal guess: no sooner than 4Q09.

Apr 05 16:29:06 <Hippy> I haven't even read FLEET yet@ It's a sad state when authors can write quicker than I can read :(

Apr 05 16:29:06 <rimworlder> on the other hand, its two more reviews...

Apr 05 16:29:07 <NickE> 4009?

Apr 05 16:29:09 <Lensman> I don't think I can wait that long...

Apr 05 16:29:17 <SolBelter> y, Lens, i'm Spike MacPhee, KS Timeline fan, settling on my handle [i was belter last time]

Apr 05 16:29:18 <rimworlder> nick - definately

Apr 05 16:29:19 <NickE> long lead time

Apr 05 16:29:28 <EML> I won't tell you what you'll learn about the Pak, but you will learn more about them.

Apr 05 16:29:35 <Lensman> Oh sorry, that was 4th Quarter '09, not 4009

Apr 05 16:29:43 <NickE> phew

Apr 05 16:29:48 <EML> Nick: not a long lead time. We have to write it.

Apr 05 16:29:58 <NickE> well, OK then

Apr 05 16:30:01 <NickE> :-)

Apr 05 16:30:15 <SolBelter> thx EML -i'd like to use that quote with stress on *prjected, earliest*

Apr 05 16:30:21 <rimworlder> for a second there I thought you guys were trying to catch up to the KS timeline

Apr 05 16:30:48 <SolBelter> lol rworlder

Apr 05 16:31:08 <rimworlder> Ed - just out of curiosity, who are you working with at TOR, if I can ask?

Apr 05 16:31:25 <Hippy> Spike MacPhee...some kind of audio adventures? Buffy the Vampire Slayer or someting? Or am I going nuts?

Apr 05 16:31:39 <EML> even "projected earliest" is too official sounding. 4Q09 entirely a guess on my part. And I think early 2010 is quite possible.

Apr 05 16:32:15 <NickE> No *I'm Spike!* in BBtL audio dramaat least

Apr 05 16:32:16 <EML> Rim: my Tor editor (for Niven collaborations and Lerner solos) is Bob Gleason.

Apr 05 16:32:27 <SolBelter> hippy, that's my rl name, not a vid ref :) ran SF bookstore, HArvard sq 1977-89...

Apr 05 16:32:27 <rimworlder> 2010. I SHOULD be reading that book while visiting Clavius base

Apr 05 16:32:38 <NickE> Spike McPhee, longtime fan

Apr 05 16:32:55 <Hippy> Ah. Sorry, Nick

Apr 05 16:33:07 <rimworlder> Ed - just curiosity - I'm discovering that a lot of the folks at TOR are old fannish acquaintances of mine - many I worked with on worldcons back in the 70s

Apr 05 16:33:12 * Ronn has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Apr 05 16:33:19 * Hippy should have a better memory fcor credits than that

Apr 05 16:33:24 * Ronn (~Ronn@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 16:33:31 <NickE> NP, folk adress me as Spike in relation to my audio drama role

Apr 05 16:33:32 <SolBelter> ronn: gonn ...

Apr 05 16:33:37 <NickE> Hi Ronn

Apr 05 16:33:43 <Lensman> Hey Ronn, come when you can stay awhile! :)

Apr 05 16:33:44 <rimworlder> hi ronn

Apr 05 16:34:07 <NickE> (online anyway)

Apr 05 16:34:08 <Hippy> Welcome back, Ronn

Apr 05 16:34:14 <rimworlder> and I think Gleason was the treasurer for SunCon in '77

Apr 05 16:34:47 <EML> I'm a con noobie. First one wasn't until 2000.

Apr 05 16:34:47 <Lensman> SB did you see the private message I sent you?

Apr 05 16:34:51 * SeanS (~not@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 16:34:51 * SeanS gives channel operator status to SeanS

Apr 05 16:34:51 * SeanS sets mode +O #knownspace SeanS

Apr 05 16:35:15 <SolBelter> ok EML, "perhaps early 2010, EML ventured" ??

Apr 05 16:35:44 <Lensman> Ed: So do I understand you have the title and a contract, but you haven't yet worked out even the basic plot of DOW yet?

Apr 05 16:35:45 <SeanS> hello again to everyone. errands completed

Apr 05 16:35:53 <EML> SB: okay, that's suitably tentative :-)

Apr 05 16:36:21 <rimworlder> suitably tentative = irrationally exhuberant

Apr 05 16:36:23 <SolBelter> [i'm SPNN, Spindrift, the SciLands, Second Life, reporter]

Apr 05 16:36:43 <SolBelter> excellent eml! thank you.

Apr 05 16:36:55 <Ronn> Okay, that wasn't intentional. Tried to do something & got disconnected . . .

Apr 05 16:37:06 <EML> Lens: we're farther along than that. we have a plot, very detailed background notes about various alien species, and a prologue.

Apr 05 16:37:23 <Hippy> What day does April 30th fall on this year?

Apr 05 16:37:38 <SeanS> wednesday

Apr 05 16:37:39 <jim_stiles> Wed

Apr 05 16:37:50 <EML> Wodins Day.

Apr 05 16:38:08 <Lensman> Ed: Okay, I was just trying to parse your "it has a name, a contract, and ... Pak." comment.

Apr 05 16:38:10 <Hippy> Ah... Well, it struck me that that is LN's threescore years and ten, so who would be into a chat on the 30th?

Apr 05 16:38:16 <Hippy> A birthday one

Apr 05 16:38:26 <SolBelter> is my venue but the sf news goes in my personal blog

Apr 05 16:38:39 <Lensman> SolBelter: Yes, I'm trying to send you a private message but you're not responding.

Apr 05 16:39:17 <SolBelter> k lens - i'm not faMiliar with the interface - will ck

Apr 05 16:39:18 <rimworlder> Ed - will there be room for a fourth, or are time frames getting crunched?

Apr 05 16:39:38 <rimworlder> KS timeframes

Apr 05 16:40:01 <Lensman> SolBelter: No, I used the /msg mode, it should have shown up in your regular window. I guess IRC commands don't work with your interface.

Apr 05 16:40:29 <EML> A fourth is possible, which isn't to say there's been any discussion of one.

Apr 05 16:40:47 <Fred_of_Worlds> ack, larry's birthday is upon us?

Apr 05 16:40:48 <Lensman> SolBelter: I'll send you an e-mail

Apr 05 16:40:48 <rimworlder> thanks ed.

Apr 05 16:40:55 <SolBelter> worked fine Lens- replied [distracted by multiple browsers info, too :)

Apr 05 16:41:07 <Fred_of_Worlds> and I haven't even started shopping

Apr 05 16:41:19 <NickE> fred, not good! I mean good, but oh crap how short is time Tanj wise!

Apr 05 16:41:26 <Fred_of_Worlds> yeah

Apr 05 16:41:33 <SolBelter> easy! get Larry boosterspice...

Apr 05 16:41:41 <Fred_of_Worlds> I thought it was more towards the end of the year

Apr 05 16:41:43 <EML> or a yam.

Apr 05 16:41:46 <NickE> me too

Apr 05 16:41:47 <rimworlder> lol

Apr 05 16:41:58 <Hippy> He can have one of my many discarded corneas :)

Apr 05 16:42:00 <rimworlder> I eat tons of yams and NOTHING yet

Apr 05 16:42:06 <NickE> heh

Apr 05 16:42:24 <SolBelter> but seeriously, in our timeline writing, back when, there was a clear ref in Grendel

Apr 05 16:42:29 <rimworlder> except that pesky arthritis and weakening heart

Apr 05 16:42:33 <Hippy> You should eat more thallium oxide, Sol

Apr 05 16:42:41 <EML> Now Popeye says "I yam what I yam," but yet it's spinach that works for him.

Apr 05 16:42:49 <SolBelter> to when " acertain Junx biolab synthesized boosterspice

Apr 05 16:42:54 <NickE> not really, toxic as hell

Apr 05 16:43:00 <NickE> Thallium

Apr 05 16:43:07 <SolBelter> there is a novel or shared=univ anthols

Apr 05 16:43:26 <SolBelter> waiting to be written about the impact f that

Apr 05 16:43:28 <rimworlder> my mind has been expanding tho...

Apr 05 16:43:29 <NickE> One of Saddams fv poisons for rivals/opponents apparently

Apr 05 16:43:47 <SolBelter> [Crashlander p 121]

Apr 05 16:43:51 <Ronn> "Junx biolab" works with junk DNA?

Apr 05 16:43:51 <rimworlder> yes, and used elsewhere as a poison as well

Apr 05 16:44:06 <Lensman> Spike provided some "fan history" documents which are of interest to long-time Niven fans.

Apr 05 16:44:11 <Lensman>

Apr 05 16:44:30 <Lensman> Oops, I should have said "SolBelter provided..."

Apr 05 16:44:40 <rimworlder> I'm dying to know if those new books are going to kill my theory

Apr 05 16:45:01 <EML> Umm, what theory?

Apr 05 16:45:07 <rimworlder> (first the worm goes on the hook, THEN we throw it in the water...)

Apr 05 16:45:10 <rimworlder> LOL

Apr 05 16:45:18 <Lensman> LOL! Yah, we're all dying to know if DOW will kill various theories about the Pak and tree-of-life virus.

Apr 05 16:45:19 <rimworlder> that the puppeteers are really the tunuctipun

Apr 05 16:45:24 <SolBelter> Jerry Boyajian and i wrote the timeline and gave it to larry for rewtie for use

Apr 05 16:45:31 <Ronn> You could always call a fourth one "Worlds Without Number" . . .

Apr 05 16:45:33 <SolBelter> in tales of known space

Apr 05 16:46:01 <EML> too bad Worlds of Warcraft is taken ;-)

Apr 05 16:46:05 <Lensman> Rimworlder has a new Known Space fan theory posted at my website here:

Apr 05 16:46:11 <Lensman>

Apr 05 16:46:21 <Hippy> Ah, yes. 'Dates in 'The Ethicsof Madness; must be considered erroneous'

Apr 05 16:46:22 <SeanS> so while i was running errands it became known that there is going to be a third in the 'worlds' books?

Apr 05 16:46:35 <rimworlder> sean yes

Apr 05 16:46:42 <EML> Sean: yup. Destroyer of Worlds.

Apr 05 16:46:46 <Lensman> Sean: Yah that's why I changed the subject line.

Apr 05 16:46:51 <SeanS> i was wondering at the topic

Apr 05 16:47:03 <SeanS> excellent.

Apr 05 16:47:07 <NickE> brb

Apr 05 16:47:13 <EML> the topic is a reference to my brown thumb.

Apr 05 16:47:19 <SeanS> heh

Apr 05 16:47:20 <rimworlder> to be followed by Rebuilder of Worlds and Interior Decorating of Worlds in short order

Apr 05 16:48:18 <EML> See how cleverly I diverted y'all from quaetions about Juggler of Worlds?

Apr 05 16:48:20 <rimworlder> There's just so much space! I don't know what I'm going to do with this room

Apr 05 16:48:21 <Lensman> LOL! What was the name of the worldbuilders in HHGTTG?

Apr 05 16:48:34 <SeanS> magratheans

Apr 05 16:48:39 <Hippy> What about Ministry of Planning of Wordsl?

Apr 05 16:48:43 <FlyingAway> Hello

Apr 05 16:48:46 <rimworlder> hi

Apr 05 16:48:49 <SeanS> hi carol

Apr 05 16:48:50 <EML> ola

Apr 05 16:48:50 <Hippy> You have to get permisssion to rebuild

Apr 05 16:48:53 <Lensman> "The Martha Stewart of the Magratheans"

Apr 05 16:48:57 <rimworlder> Taxation of Worlds...

Apr 05 16:49:02 * FlyingAway is now known as FlyingDragon

Apr 05 16:49:05 <EML> Repo of Worlds

Apr 05 16:49:12 <rimworlder> Zoning Boards of Worlds

Apr 05 16:49:25 <NickE> heh

Apr 05 16:49:32 <FlyingDragon> Fred of Worlds. LOL

Apr 05 16:49:34 <rimworlder> "nope, sorry. you can't get a variance for a mixed industrial/agricultural use...

Apr 05 16:49:54 <rimworlder> and so the puppeteers moved on

Apr 05 16:50:07 <jim_stiles> Beyond the Valley of the Worlds

Apr 05 16:50:10 <rimworlder> lol

Apr 05 16:50:16 <Hippy> You've achieved tru fame, Ed, when people are willing to send you up :)

Apr 05 16:50:21 <EML> or the puppeteers died out of dance fever.

Apr 05 16:50:25 <Lensman> Well if we can't get zoning approval, we'll just build down... like the Krell.

Apr 05 16:50:38 <SolBelter> is it fairer to say, EML, that DoW is set against the same backdrop events of 1st 2, or say third in the sries?

Apr 05 16:50:54 <rimworlder> oh no, seriousness!

Apr 05 16:51:11 <Ronn> So dance fever .NE. "Staying Alive"?

Apr 05 16:51:32 <rimworlder> duet for three legs?

Apr 05 16:51:43 <EML> SB: DOW will take place after FOW and JOW. That said, it'll be standalone.

Apr 05 16:51:52 <SolBelter> trio for 3 legs?

Apr 05 16:52:05 <jim_stiles> Ronn, no FORTRAN jokes

Apr 05 16:52:07 <SolBelter> thx again!

Apr 05 16:52:11 <rimworlder> I'm picturing a cantina scene with niven aliens...

Apr 05 16:52:19 <Lensman> As long as your dance fever doesn't come from the demon in Buffy: "Once More, With Feeling".

Apr 05 16:52:28 <rimworlder> lol

Apr 05 16:52:30 <EML> brb

Apr 05 16:52:55 <Hippy> They could do the 'No Moon Walk'

Apr 05 16:53:02 <rimworlder> rofl

Apr 05 16:53:11 <Lensman> Rim: There's a scene like that in the /Draco Tavern/ collection.

Apr 05 16:53:17 <SolBelter> tirle generator diff first lettr, then figger out the word - Foe, Jow, Dow, Sow, Cow< gow...

Apr 05 16:53:19 <Lensman> A fannish play.

Apr 05 16:53:21 <rimworlder> yeah, vaguely remember it

Apr 05 16:53:28 <SolBelter> title gen^

Apr 05 16:53:33 <Hippy> 'Billie Jean is not my lover, she is a separate species that have been symbiotic with us for all history'

Apr 05 16:53:43 <NickE> lol

Apr 05 16:54:09 <rimworlder> hippy - ain't that the truth

Apr 05 16:54:22 <Hippy> LOL!!

Apr 05 16:54:22 <rimworlder> and I wouldn't call it symbiotic - its parasitic

Apr 05 16:54:25 <Lensman> Oh Kdapt, mixing country-western with Niven! The horror, the horror...

Apr 05 16:54:42 <rimworlder> lol - now I know why I come in here

Apr 05 16:55:49 <Hippy> A Niven C&W song? Hmm... But I tinkk it would test the finest filker in the world to do that

Apr 05 16:56:00 <Fred_of_Worlds> Oh my Teela

Apr 05 16:56:04 <Fred_of_Worlds> Oh my Teela

Apr 05 16:56:14 <Fred_of_Worlds> Oh my Teeeela jandrova Brown

Apr 05 16:56:19 <Fred_of_Worlds> She is lost and gone forever

Apr 05 16:56:33 <Fred_of_Worlds> My Teeellaaaa Jandrova Brown

Apr 05 16:56:52 <Hippy> Or maybe not

Apr 05 16:56:56 <rimworlder> lol

Apr 05 16:56:59 <NickE> heh

Apr 05 16:57:12 <EML> <groan>

Apr 05 16:57:19 <Hippy> Fred: second verse, ssame as the first?

Apr 05 16:57:24 <Fred_of_Worlds> hee hee

Apr 05 16:57:34 <Fred_of_Worlds> There waaaaaaaaaaaas

Apr 05 16:57:39 <Fred_of_Worlds> Flup on the saddle

Apr 05 16:57:42 <Ronn> Don't quit your day job, F_o_W . . .

Apr 05 16:57:44 <Fred_of_Worlds> and Flup on the ground

Apr 05 16:57:51 <Fred_of_Worlds> and great big puddle, of

Apr 05 16:57:57 <Fred_of_Worlds> Flup on the ground

Apr 05 16:58:02 * aldo (~aldo@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 16:58:16 <EML> I think that'll be a flup-side track.

Apr 05 16:58:29 <Hippy> Howdy, ADldo

Apr 05 16:58:31 <NickE> groan

Apr 05 16:58:42 <FlyingDragon> Aldo! YOu made it!

Apr 05 16:58:44 * Lensman has changed the topic to: LARRY NIVEN'S FREEFALL

Apr 05 16:58:51 <aldo> Hello everyone

Apr 05 16:58:54 <Hippy> What about a song about a henpecked Kzin? His kzinrett only knows four words, but she will not shut up

Apr 05 16:58:56 <NickE> hi

Apr 05 16:59:04 <Fred_of_Worlds> did Ed have stuff he actually wanted to ask us about aliens?

Apr 05 16:59:08 <Fred_of_Worlds> and we're being rude?

Apr 05 16:59:17 <FlyingDragon> You can henpeck with no words!!!!

Apr 05 16:59:19 <Lensman> Welcome, Aldo! Please save us from bad Niven Country-Western lyrics. (The "bad" is of course redundant...)

Apr 05 16:59:22 <Fred_of_Worlds> not that I'm adverse to being rude, just asking

Apr 05 16:59:25 <Ronn> 'allo aldo (someone had to say it)

Apr 05 16:59:26 <rimworlder> hippy - only problem with that is that in Kzin society, "you can live with em, and you can kill em"

Apr 05 16:59:36 <FlyingDragon> Been liking the C&W Niven!!!!!!

Apr 05 16:59:42 <aldo> Okay, you're all saved!

Apr 05 16:59:52 <EML> FOW: no questions in mind, just wanted to share the news.

Apr 05 16:59:54 <Fred_of_Worlds> you can tell who's a texas gal

Apr 05 17:00:00 <Fred_of_Worlds> oh, okay, cool Ed

Apr 05 17:00:12 <Fred_of_Worlds> was afraid we'd stepped on something important to you :)

Apr 05 17:00:24 <rimworlder> oh darn, Ed. we wanted to contribute

Apr 05 17:00:37 <EML> Now if there's anything people are dying to know about Pak or Gw'oth, I'm happy to listen ...

Apr 05 17:00:42 <Hippy> Good observationn, Rim

Apr 05 17:00:46 <rimworlder> LOL

Apr 05 17:00:52 <Lensman> Aldo, since I guess you'll only be here for a short time, let me jump in and ask: Just what are you doing for the "Freefall" project?

Apr 05 17:01:17 <EML> and for the really uninitated, what IS the freefall project?

Apr 05 17:01:22 <rimworlder> what is the freefall project

Apr 05 17:01:26 <rimworlder> LOL

Apr 05 17:01:53 <aldo> I'm essentially the chief engineer. I'm designing the spacecraft and much of the technology. Even dolphin spacesuits?

Apr 05 17:02:13 <Lensman> Info on FREEFALL:

Apr 05 17:02:16 <Lensman>

Apr 05 17:02:28 <Lensman> WOW totally kewl!

Apr 05 17:02:30 <aldo> Free Fall is planned to be arry's first major entry into the world of videogames

Apr 05 17:02:41 <NickE> looks good

Apr 05 17:02:43 <aldo> that's LARRY

Apr 05 17:03:01 <Lensman> Yes, we read typo. :)

Apr 05 17:03:15 <NickE> Good cos i tyop typo

Apr 05 17:03:22 <Hippy> And what of the Ringworld games???

Apr 05 17:03:30 <EML> and Halo?

Apr 05 17:03:38 <Lensman> When Larry mentioned it, he wasn't sure this project would be carried thru to completion. Do you think it will be?

Apr 05 17:03:39 <SolBelter> Aldo, can we try in Sedcond Life to make a copy [credited to u] of yr Orion ship/Footfall] - i saw the plans recently... good work!

Apr 05 17:03:40 <aldo> Thanks. got a sticky keyboard and can't type worth a damn anyhow!

Apr 05 17:04:29 <rimworlder> very very cool

Apr 05 17:05:09 <aldo> The key to selling this project is Alchemic Productions, operated by Brian Gomez and Rick Ernst. They are working hard to sell the project using their considerable experience and connections

Apr 05 17:06:07 <Lensman> So, Alchemic is the designer and they're looking for a publisher?

Apr 05 17:06:30 <aldo> I'm open to putting battleship Michael in SL. sounds cool! Contact me offline.

Apr 05 17:07:01 <rimworlder> well, I've got a schizo-hyper yorkie on my hands right now and he insists that I want to play with him more than I want to I gotta go. Ed - thanks for the kind words. Lens - thanks for the space for the article, Hippy - good luck with everything. Aldo - cool stuff! The rest of you - see you later.

Apr 05 17:07:21 * rimworlder has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Apr 05 17:07:31 <aldo> Larry, myself, Brian, Rick are designing the game together, but Rick & Brian have the real gaming expertise

Apr 05 17:07:51 <SolBelter> k! Aldo i'm in SL - ow to ping u?

Apr 05 17:08:16 <aldo> contact me at

Apr 05 17:09:27 <SolBelter> roger that Aldo! :)

Apr 05 17:09:53 * Hippy thanks whomever for the axial tilt of the Earth. The sun is just coming up but is not searing his head off

Apr 05 17:09:59 <EML> Good luck with the game, Aldo.

Apr 05 17:10:36 <EML> No, hippy, axes cut things, not sear hem.

Apr 05 17:10:50 <SeanS> in just less than 12 hours, I depart for florida... praying for lots of sun for the next week

Apr 05 17:10:56 <aldo> Thanks! We'll keep you guys in the loop as the game project progresses

Apr 05 17:11:19 <Lensman> Aldo: If you don't mind my asking, how much time do you spend doing spacecraft designs? Is Aerospace Imagineering your primary job, or is it a sideline?

Apr 05 17:11:23 <Hippy> Well observed, Ed. In that ase, I thank whomever is directing this weird 'TRuman Show' I'm stuck in

Apr 05 17:12:15 <aldo> No, I work full time at Northrop Grumman. Though, my job is to envision future technology, so I'm involved in this stuff 24/7

Apr 05 17:12:35 <FlyingDragon> List up! COool!

Apr 05 17:12:35 <Ronn> Hippy: that would be whatever lunatic is responsible for the moon . . .

Apr 05 17:13:06 <FlyingDragon> NE of you Alfred K?

Apr 05 17:13:14 <Hippy> Ah, the moon. That was inconstantly vright last night...

Apr 05 17:13:33 <Ronn> SeanS: you hope it's better than what we've been having here

Apr 05 17:13:48 <aldo> Aerospace Imagineering is strictly my sideline. I'm CEO and janitor if you know what I mean

Apr 05 17:13:51 <Lensman> Aldo: How did you first start collaborating with Larry? Did you approach him about the Niven Project, or what?

Apr 05 17:15:07 <aldo> I approached Larry at a L.A. con sometime around 1995 and showed him my concepts for Lying Bastard. He invited me to his house and we've been friends, working together on and off ever since.

Apr 05 17:15:21 <NickE> shiny

Apr 05 17:15:49 <SeanS> Ronn: it is storming like hell in destin right now but supposed to be mid to upper 70's and sunny all week... unless they change the forcast yet again

Apr 05 17:16:31 <SolBelter> [stunned few days ago remembering i met aldo at Lunacon when he was a teenageror early 20s...]

Apr 05 17:16:54 <Hippy> Not a cloud in the sky and they're tipping 72 F or thereabouts. Unusually warmm for April, too

Apr 05 17:17:07 <SolBelter> one of aldo's first artshows attended

Apr 05 17:17:17 <aldo> SolBelter is that right!?! Cool! I really loved those lunacons!

Apr 05 17:17:27 <SeanS> so if the server goes down sometime this week, I will fix it when I get back

Apr 05 17:17:30 <EML> aldo: what part of NG? I used to work there, and still occasionally consult for them.

Apr 05 17:17:30 <SolBelter> i loved the lying bastard - accurate!

Apr 05 17:18:05 <FlyingDragon> It is ALBOLUTELY perfect weather here in Houston!!!!

Apr 05 17:18:25 <aldo> Thanks! One of these days I plan to give Lying Bastard the full 3D treatment. Certainly one of the great spacecraft concepts of all time!

Apr 05 17:19:12 <Lensman> Aldo, thanks muchly for the 3-view of the /Liar/! That looks like it should be a poster on my wall. How many of the details on that did Larry contribute?

Apr 05 17:19:31 <SolBelter> i saw larry's sketches for ringworld at NYCon-six of them yr LBast is exactly the same

Apr 05 17:19:54 <SolBelter> those sketches were sold at the auction-never seen again...

Apr 05 17:20:11 <aldo> I pretty much came up with everything. I work the concepts on my own based on reading Larry's stories and submit them to him for comment

Apr 05 17:21:27 <aldo> Larry provides just the right amount of written description. He provides the framework and a designer has the fun of filling in the details!

Apr 05 17:21:34 <SolBelter> Michael Gilbert famously said of trying to illustrate Larry, "he'll tell u an alien has a hand, but not if he has an elbow!"

Apr 05 17:21:57 <Fred_of_Worlds> he'll tell you if a root has an elbow

Apr 05 17:21:59 * SolBelter nods to aldo re level of descr by LN

Apr 05 17:22:02 <NickE> heh

Apr 05 17:22:11 <EML> it's a disjointed writing style

Apr 05 17:22:24 <SolBelter> aaaaahhh! lol

Apr 05 17:22:25 <Fred_of_Worlds> disjointed elbows are very painful

Apr 05 17:22:49 <FlyingDragon> Larry says all his characters are naken unless he describes clothes!

Apr 05 17:22:54 <FlyingDragon> NAKED

Apr 05 17:23:27 <Ronn> That's OK Carol: no one can see you on-line . . .

Apr 05 17:23:52 <Hippy> More 's the pity

Apr 05 17:23:52 <NickE> aw

Apr 05 17:24:06 <FlyingDragon> I"m wearing black from my martial arts class. WHat city did you say you were in????

Apr 05 17:24:36 <NickE> tease :-)

Apr 05 17:25:06 <Lensman> SB: Yah, trying to select the *right* illustrations for the Incompleat Known Space Concordance is a challenge. My request to use illos from /The Guide to Larry Niven's Ringworld/ got routed to Larry, who said I should be very particular about using stuff from that book. I assured him I planned on being quite selective in my use!

Apr 05 17:25:25 <SolBelter> here's my Ringworld gallery in SL

Apr 05 17:26:03 <EML> So: anyone have any comments or questions about Pak? No promises it'll influence Destroyer, but just trolling for your thoughts. ...

Apr 05 17:26:06 <SolBelter> i'm slowly gathering all the KS art i can from ppl to show there...

Apr 05 17:26:15 <EML> In another few minutes I'm going to be on my way.

Apr 05 17:26:17 <aldo> Yeah that Guide was vey uneven in its depiction of Niven tech

Apr 05 17:26:28 <jim_stiles> Bye - sorry, gotta to back to bed - I hope someone is keeping a log. - Say hi to Larry, if he shows.

Apr 05 17:26:38 * jim_stiles has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Apr 05 17:26:50 <SolBelter> Pak - relentless, not negotiators, scary for that reason

Apr 05 17:27:01 <Hippy> Actually, Ed, who do think was smarter? Louis Wu as a Protector, or the Ghoul one whose name I've forgotte?

Apr 05 17:27:15 <FlyingDragon> Does Larry say that there are NO sexual differences in Pak after the transformation? Females transform and think jus the same as males?

Apr 05 17:27:50 <EML> Hiipy: while I have an opinion (Louis), humans and ghouls are far removed from Pak.

Apr 05 17:28:58 <NickE> So just what is the basis for the pak sense of smell?

Apr 05 17:29:07 <Hippy> Good point, Ed. But I agree with you that lOUIS WAS THE MORE CLUEY ONE

Apr 05 17:29:13 <EML> While Protector says sex organs vanish, there's no definitive statement that behaviors are (or aren't) the same thereafter.

Apr 05 17:29:34 <Lensman> Ed: Well, the protectors appear to be so unlikely to result as a random mutation of a virus, that several/ many fans and/or writers have suggested tree-of-life virus is the result of genetic engineering. Of course, Tnuctipun being the master genegineers, they're the obvious suspects. But it's hard for me to believe the Pak have had protectors for 1.5 billion years. Any species that warlike should have wiped themselves out long ago, or else expanded

Apr 05 17:29:36 <NickE> like how family/mutant specific

Apr 05 17:29:43 <EML> The protector stage may retain some learned behaviors.

Apr 05 17:30:06 <Lensman> Ed: So I'm hoping you and Larry will come up with a scenario which better explains that.

Apr 05 17:30:39 <EML> I got some good notes about tree-of-life last month's chat (and now you know why I cared).


Apr 05 17:30:58 <Hippy> Did I just hit the Caps Lock?

Apr 05 17:31:11 <FlyingDragon> Yes, Hippy, and you were SCREAMING at us.

Apr 05 17:31:12 <aldo> Hi Ed, sorry I missed your earlier question. I'm with NG Integrated Systems in El Segundo, CA

Apr 05 17:31:14 * Hippy apologises for bad manners

Apr 05 17:31:41 <EML> to remember a bahavior doesn't obligate one to keep following it. even we flawed breeders can sometimes outgrow misguided behaviors ;-)

Apr 05 17:32:06 <Lensman> Who was it who pointed out that Brennan-monster got TOL to grow in a yam, suggesting that the ancestor of the yam was actually TOL root?

Apr 05 17:32:16 <FlyingDragon> I would think that females would STILL have a better corpus colossum!

Apr 05 17:32:31 <EML> Aldo: I was with some IT function (forget what it's called now) in Reston, VA (outside DC).

Apr 05 17:32:46 <SeanS> Just ordered papajohns online... talk about excellent uses of the internet.

Apr 05 17:33:03 <Hippy> You could get into some interesting questions about how makes andfemales behave differntly. What the differences actually are

Apr 05 17:33:19 <EML> yam pizza would be apt.

Apr 05 17:33:32 <SeanS> it would but i went with 'the works'

Apr 05 17:33:34 <aldo> Cool! I believe the Reston facility is now part of Mission Systems. By the way, recently read Fleet of Worlds and LOVED it!

Apr 05 17:33:46 <NickE> was ace

Apr 05 17:34:44 <EML> thanks, Aldo. There are several NG facilities in Reston. I don't think mine went into Mission systems. you may be thinking of the former TASC and/or TRW.

Apr 05 17:34:54 <Ronn> I have canned yams in the kitchen

Apr 05 17:34:55 * Hippy is going to have to restart mIRC because the damn TTS agent has shut down. Nobody talk till I get back :)

Apr 05 17:35:05 * Hippy has quit ()

Apr 05 17:35:18 <SeanS> heh, i am logging it at the house

Apr 05 17:35:25 <Ronn> mmmmphh!

Apr 05 17:35:27 <FlyingDragon> EML, my 12 yo son would like to know what your middle initial is.

Apr 05 17:35:32 <Lensman> Aldo, do you have any idea how many months it will be until you know whether or not FREEFALL will get the green light?

Apr 05 17:35:37 * SeanS points up to the SeanLog user

Apr 05 17:35:43 <aldo> Yes, I think you're right. NG is now a vast far flung empire

Apr 05 17:36:07 <EML> Dragon: M = Mark.

Apr 05 17:36:56 <aldo> That's a good question regarding a free fall go-ahead. I'm guessing we'll have a pretty good idea if it will sell before this fall

Apr 05 17:37:13 <FlyingDragon> TY. I'm going to have to leave soon, as son and I are in the middle of watching SW chapter 3. He won't wait forever for me to play on the computer.

Apr 05 17:37:34 <FlyingDragon> My son sez "That is correct."

Apr 05 17:37:48 <EML> Glad he approves of my middle name ;-)

Apr 05 17:38:19 <Ronn> What if he hadn't?

Apr 05 17:38:44 <EML> I'm cutting out, too (or Pak-in' it in, as it were). Good talkin' to everyone.

Apr 05 17:38:59 <SeanS> thanks for dropping by Ed

Apr 05 17:39:07 <NickE> Cheers Ed

Apr 05 17:39:10 * Hippy (~captlychee@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 17:39:18 <Lensman> Oof! Thanks for coming, Ed. I'm glad you've made it a habit!

Apr 05 17:39:21 * rimworlder (~rimworlder@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 17:39:22 <aldo> Take care, Ed!

Apr 05 17:39:24 <FlyingDragon> CU EML!

Apr 05 17:39:26 <SeanS> wb hippy

Apr 05 17:39:34 <SeanS> wb rim

Apr 05 17:39:37 <EML> TTFN.

Apr 05 17:39:39 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Apr 05 17:39:45 <Hippy> 'Bye, Ed

Apr 05 17:39:45 <rimworlder> thanks

Apr 05 17:39:52 <rimworlder> the yorkie is now taking a nap

Apr 05 17:40:32 <SeanS> nick, check private

Apr 05 17:40:36 <rimworlder> anyone know when the log of the chat goes up?

Apr 05 17:40:58 <SeanS> hmm, i wont be home until the weekend so it will take me till at least then

Apr 05 17:41:01 <SolBelter> rim, sean sends them in...

Apr 05 17:41:20 <rimworlder> ahh - but where is sean that it isn't the weekend?

Apr 05 17:41:20 <SeanS> if anyone else is logging, they can email them to mark firestone the webmaster

Apr 05 17:41:21 <SolBelter> but last one or 2 still not up, so it varies :)

Apr 05 17:41:27 <Lensman> Aldo: Is there anything else you'd like to tell us about "Freefall"? This is strictly a gamebox release, is that right? If it sells well, is it reasonable to think there will be a PC version? I'd like to own the game, but the only way I could play it is by using a friend's game machine.

Apr 05 17:41:32 <SeanS> i get behind from time to time

Apr 05 17:42:09 * Hippy will be aFK performing his morning ablutions for a while. I'm logging so I shall be lurking here, ready to read the chat when I get back

Apr 05 17:42:23 <rimworlder> have fun

Apr 05 17:42:34 <Hippy> So if I don't respond, it's because I'm not here. And this TTS agent is not working properly, dammit!

Apr 05 17:42:44 * Hippy AFK

Apr 05 17:42:47 <aldo> I think FREEFALL will initially be targeted for PS3/XBOX but I think it will be availabl for PC if successful

Apr 05 17:43:01 <SeanS> the applet works pretty good but i dont think it has a logging feature

Apr 05 17:44:17 <rimworlder> also - can you paint your suit?

Apr 05 17:44:27 <SeanS> when i get back, i will look into some TTS soft for ya hippy

Apr 05 17:44:47 <aldo> Just between us boys and girls, FREEFALL is essentially KNOWN SPACE. However, if we call it Known Space, there are daunting legal complications. So for now at least, it's a new universe.

Apr 05 17:45:19 <Lensman> Sean: Is there a way to log in mIRC? I see I can open a log file, but I don't see a way to record a log.

Apr 05 17:45:29 <SeanS> yeah

Apr 05 17:45:45 <SeanS> in the logging menu, you can tell it to log channels and privates

Apr 05 17:45:57 <aldo> You'll at least be able to choose your suit art, and possibly paint. Dolphins will be major characters in the game and they'll have suit art too

Apr 05 17:46:06 <SeanS> i used to use mirc to log all of them but linux and xchat are much more stable

Apr 05 17:46:17 <SolBelter> i still have my rick sternback star trek map with kzin space on it... :) from the Slaver weapon animated trek

Apr 05 17:46:38 <Lensman> Aldo: Oh? How hush-hush is that info? I put up a news item at the site, and I'd like to expand that.

Apr 05 17:46:39 <SolBelter> suit art! high-five!

Apr 05 17:47:02 <rimworlder> sean - very cool. I worked on a Ringworld adventure (RPG) years ago that involved a team of dolphins sent there to explore the underwater portion of the map of mars

Apr 05 17:47:31 <SolBelter> wow-good scenario, rimworlder!

Apr 05 17:47:46 <rimworlder> yeah - but no one gets to use the dali painting

Apr 05 17:48:08 <rimworlder> it was slated to be an adventure pack but they folded the game instead

Apr 05 17:48:45 <aldo> This is for chat eye's only. PLEASE DON't mention that FREEFALL might be related to KNOWN SPACE! The lawyers would be drooling! When it is released, you''' all be able to judge for yourselves.

Apr 05 17:48:46 <rimworlder> SB - yeah, we figured we'd get the adventures into the control center through an underwater port.

Apr 05 17:49:24 <rimworlder> aldo - no prob - but I wouldn't worry too much. there's plenty of gaming examples of re-named properties

Apr 05 17:49:31 <SeanS> ok, i will excise the comment from the log before posting it

Apr 05 17:49:40 * SolBelter grins to rimworlder

Apr 05 17:49:54 <rimworlder> I'm grinning back

Apr 05 17:50:27 <SolBelter> it'd not aldo's worry, but the *lawyers* worry, so supercautious

Apr 05 17:50:35 <rimworlder> we had a lot of fun predicting the evolution of sea-based mammals

Apr 05 17:50:52 <Lensman> That sounds very, very kewl. So we can upload a graphic image to use as suit art! Maybe a Michael Whelan, from the Barsoom books... or something closer to home. Stephan Martiniere's painting for /Ringworld's Children/ is literally stunning, but I'm not sure it would work for suit art. Maybe Whelan's /Smoke Ring/ cover.

Apr 05 17:51:04 <rimworlder> no doubt they can make trouble, but if people wanted to fight such a thing, they wouldn't win.

Apr 05 17:51:25 <Lensman> Aldo: Okay, mum's the word.

Apr 05 17:51:40 <rimworlder> I'm gonna go for the nude woman on the front AND the back...

Apr 05 17:51:53 <SolBelter> it's the threat of prolonged legal action burning much money, rimw

Apr 05 17:52:12 <SeanS> hopefully the suit art will be able to be very detailed. belters suits come to mind

Apr 05 17:52:26 <aldo> Yes, you're absolutely right. The Known Space issues can probably be resolved if we decide that's an advantage to game marketing and sales. It's just that resolving these issues would take waaaay longer than we care to wait. We'll sell the game first and see what happens.

Apr 05 17:52:34 <Lensman> Right, the way to win a lawsuit is not to get involved in one.

Apr 05 17:52:35 <rimworlder> SB - that's what I meant by causing trouble. these are things I'm familiar with. if you think book/game rights legal issues are fun, try dealing with paintball patent issues

Apr 05 17:53:29 <SolBelter> 'my patent is for all round ammo!" gimme da royalties!

Apr 05 17:53:43 <rimworlder> and I wasn't suggesting fight it just to do so; the courtroom is a crapshoot. anything can and does happen, including judge's ignoring or overturning long-standing law

Apr 05 17:53:53 <rimworlder> SB - just about

Apr 05 17:54:10 <SolBelter> "my paintball patent is for all velocity-increasing weapons"!!

Apr 05 17:54:22 <FlyingDragon> Gotta run now. I've a date with my son.

Apr 05 17:54:25 <Lensman> Aldo: So if FREEFALL has artificial gravity, then in relation to Known Space it has to be at the time of the Second Man-Kzin War or later. I'm guessing reactionless thrusters aren't in the game, 'cuz Larry said it was all real science except for the artificial gravity?

Apr 05 17:54:33 * FlyingDragon is now known as FlyingAway

Apr 05 17:54:33 <aldo> Regarding, suit art, yes, I think uploading your image will be the way it will work. The game will provide you with a template

Apr 05 17:54:36 <rimworlder> SB - do you know the X-ball league/format? I have the patent for it, and not a dime from it

Apr 05 17:54:37 <SolBelter> enjot chapter 3 with him!!

Apr 05 17:55:14 <FlyingAway> My original review of SW 3 was "Dead children lying on the floor let my children see I won't." but Keegan wants to see it.

Apr 05 17:55:14 <SolBelter> not a clue re format until i goog... :) sympathy

Apr 05 17:55:45 <rimworlder> SB - they've only made about 30 mil all told

Apr 05 17:56:03 <rimworlder> what's another few million, eh?

Apr 05 17:56:17 <SolBelter> hhooooo boy!

Apr 05 17:56:29 <aldo> Artificial gravity has been a big topic of discussion as we've worked the game details. We're planning to avoid it as much as possible. In other words, artificial gravity will or may be a new technology in the era of the game. It is expensive and doesn't package well for small applications

Apr 05 17:56:42 <FlyingAway> Keegan says to everyone "Bye" (He means I'M saying bye!!!!)

Apr 05 17:56:53 <Lensman> I keep thinking I should actually watch my DVD of SW3, but so far I've only seen it once in the theatre.

Apr 05 17:57:16 <rimworlder> I won't belabor the non KS issue, but lets put it this way: my attorneys in the case (the TOP firm in DC) fired me as a client after they discovered that there WAS a conflict of interest with other clients - who just so happened to be the people who ripped me off

Apr 05 17:57:45 <aldo> I'm gonna have to sign off at around 3:00 pm. Any other questions?

Apr 05 17:58:00 <rimworlder> release date?

Apr 05 17:58:13 <aldo> 3:00 pm west coast time . . .

Apr 05 17:58:25 <Lensman> Aldo: Well I found it amusing that artificial gravity is, according to Larry, the only tech in a game called "Free Fall" which isn't an offshoot of current science/tech... :)

Apr 05 17:58:28 <Fred_of_Worlds> reading back: protector, learned female mannerisms. Of course, if the female mannerisms are a side effect of estrogen, the protector's gonna lose 'em

Apr 05 17:58:35 <Fred_of_Worlds> I'm thinking Bea Arthur here

Apr 05 17:58:43 <rimworlder> lol

Apr 05 17:58:48 <rimworlder> Maude in Space

Apr 05 17:58:49 <SolBelter> i used dickstein moran shapiro [ as spearcarrier for L-5 Moon treaty opposition - i was told they in top six firms then -1979 - any idea?

Apr 05 17:59:03 <aldo> Release date is unkown, We are in selling mode and have close a deal with a game publisher. There is definitely interest.

Apr 05 17:59:03 <SolBelter> and sad behavior by yr ex firm

Apr 05 17:59:45 <Lensman> Fred: One of the main points of "The Ethics of Madness" is that ingrained habits die hard. I think the story mentions a guy who was accidentally castrated, yet his sex life remained unchanged.

Apr 05 17:59:53 <rimworlder> yes - should have heard the dressing down I got from them, as if it was my fault they hand't done a thoroug review before accepting the case. So, my alternative was to hire the second best firm to sue THEM for malpractice...

Apr 05 18:00:09 <Fred_of_Worlds> the hood ornament accident

Apr 05 18:00:12 <Fred_of_Worlds> shudder

Apr 05 18:00:32 <SolBelter> ...and burn endless $$, stalled, delayed...etc grrr

Apr 05 18:00:57 <aldo> Yeah, we want most of the games action to occur in zero/micro-G with accurate physics. Still working the details with regard to how we'll use some artificial gravity

Apr 05 18:01:07 <rimworlder> yeah - even before getting to the patent infringement issue. fortunately, they didn't implement it properly (trying to get around my IP) and the league is failing

Apr 05 18:01:37 <rimworlder> aldo - it occurs to me that someone in your team had to spend a fair amount of time designing vomit flows...

Apr 05 18:01:48 <SolBelter> Aldo, then do a deal with h beam piper estate for his contragravity terran empire/space vikings :)

Apr 05 18:01:58 <SolBelter> as a game universe

Apr 05 18:02:25 <rimworlder> nah - just do what SJG did, give it an acronym like GURPS and then steal everything from everybody

Apr 05 18:03:00 <SolBelter> rimw, yeah, they played a zerosum game rather than collaborate

Apr 05 18:03:01 <Lensman> Aldo: I guess the question is *why* will you be using artificial gravity? Is that so scenes filmed using live actors make sense-- that is, they're not floating around in freefall-- or did y'all just decide you wanted the tech in the game?

Apr 05 18:03:15 <aldo> Yeah, the vomit aspects will be interesting! Of course the game good guys will be experienced/born into this environment. They'll only puke when the food is bad

Apr 05 18:03:44 <Fred_of_Worlds> so, all through high school then

Apr 05 18:03:59 <SolBelter> using a-gee [artif gee] reduces storage area in rooms

Apr 05 18:04:14 <SolBelter> only good for passengers unused to space

Apr 05 18:04:19 <rimworlder> SB - yes it does. think how many books you can store with cubic!

Apr 05 18:04:44 <Lensman> "Lensman, what did you discuss in the chat room yesterday?" "Oh, the fluid dynamics of vomit in zero-gee, why?"

Apr 05 18:04:58 <rimworlder> aldo - it could come in handy; if someone's visor is covered with goo, they can't fight

Apr 05 18:05:02 <aldo> The reason inclusion of AG is the tech aspects and how it would add to cool gameplay. We're planning on including mining tugs that are AG capable for manipulating large masses

Apr 05 18:05:04 <SolBelter> <questioner vomits>

Apr 05 18:05:13 <Ronn> only reduces storage space if you want to be able to find anything

Apr 05 18:05:37 <rimworlder> lol - you have to model each individual chunk...

Apr 05 18:05:56 <SolBelter> hah! the old peegees from jack williamson/will stewart

Apr 05 18:05:59 <Lensman> Mining tugs... large masses... hmmm... (Insert obvious reference to "The Borderland of Sol")

Apr 05 18:06:16 <aldo> Frankly, we haven't much considered vomitting. These are good ideas!

Apr 05 18:06:23 <SolBelter> paragravity generators , peegee, to give small rocks atmosphere

Apr 05 18:06:41 <aldo> Yes, this cpomes right out of Borderland of Sol

Apr 05 18:06:54 <Ronn> Aldo: most folks dont . . .

Apr 05 18:06:54 <rimworlder> aldo - just watch clips of the vomit comet; anyone doing that for the first time and getting happy with it is going to blow!

Apr 05 18:07:26 <Lensman> Hmmm, well then obviously the question is: Will quantum black holes be possible in the game? Or would that be a spoiler?

Apr 05 18:07:28 <SolBelter> ans use magnetics and peegee for handling see-tee contraterrene rock = antimatter

Apr 05 18:07:45 <SolBelter> c.t. = see-tee

Apr 05 18:08:10 <Lensman> OMG how long has it been since I've seen "see-tee" used in a sentence? Is that from Chandler?

Apr 05 18:08:23 <aldo> I need to depart, It's been a pleasure spending some time with you folks!

Apr 05 18:08:38 <SolBelter> lates 40s and late 50s pb

Apr 05 18:08:47 <SolBelter> bye aldo!

Apr 05 18:08:54 <Lensman> Aldo, thank you *very* much for dropping in and answering our questions! You've been quite illuminiating.

Apr 05 18:09:00 <Ronn> Glad you were here!

Apr 05 18:09:23 * aldo has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Apr 05 18:09:42 <SolBelter> lens pasting this hah! the old peegees from jack williamson/will stewart

Apr 05 18:09:51 <Ronn> Lensman: Jack Williamson was the first to use "seetee"

Apr 05 18:09:55 <SolBelter> and see-tee in same pair of books

Apr 05 18:09:55 <rimworlder> no lens - williamson

Apr 05 18:10:00 <rimworlder> and maybe clement too

Apr 05 18:10:18 <SolBelter> see-tee shock and see-tee ship

Apr 05 18:10:27 <Lensman> I see /Seetee Shock/ is by Williamson.

Apr 05 18:10:41 <rimworlder> so, is everyone here pretty much a 'classic' sf reader?

Apr 05 18:11:05 <SolBelter> nod, originally his pseud will stewart in Astounding

Apr 05 18:11:20 <SolBelter> hard sf for me

Apr 05 18:11:28 <SolBelter> and classic by longevity

Apr 05 18:11:32 <Ronn> It wasn't "classic" when we first read it

Apr 05 18:11:34 <rimworlder> ok

Apr 05 18:11:40 <SolBelter> read sf since early 50s

Apr 05 18:11:51 <rimworlder> LOL - for me neither; have a copy of an astounding anthology I bought for 15 cents - new

Apr 05 18:12:11 <SolBelter> and backtracked with asf issues/reprints for eesmith/campbell/etc

Apr 05 18:12:31 <rimworlder> ok. I have two questions. the first brief, the second kind of convoluted

Apr 05 18:12:31 <Lensman> I was born in '55. Not sure when I read my first "real" SF novel, but it was /Starman Jones/. Probably age 10 or 11.

Apr 05 18:12:31 <SolBelter> right ronn re classic - it wqas new grin

Apr 05 18:12:45 <SolBelter> born in 47

Apr 05 18:12:46 <Fred_of_Worlds> Question the first?

Apr 05 18:12:48 <rimworlder> Lens - I knew I liked you - that was my first too

Apr 05 18:13:09 <Ronn> Altho they were "classics" by the time I got to talk with JW about them . . .

Apr 05 18:13:24 <rimworlder> ok. do you sense/see any kind of 'anti' classic sf sentiment in your travels

Apr 05 18:13:41 <Fred_of_Worlds> yes

Apr 05 18:13:49 <SolBelter> i get no input since 2004 but yeah

Apr 05 18:14:08 <rimworlder> I've been struggling to find the root of that issue

Apr 05 18:14:10 <Fred_of_Worlds> any time anybody mentions 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea at Disney, they hit the 'that's old stuff' wall

Apr 05 18:14:13 <SolBelter> classic/stodgy/no characters/etc from newer readers

Apr 05 18:14:24 <Lensman> Yes, there's definitely an "anti-" sense from modern readers dismissing older SF for its lack of character development, and sometimes for its obsession with tech.

Apr 05 18:14:24 <SolBelter> no all, just a few

Apr 05 18:14:50 <Ronn> maybe no characters, but ideas . . .

Apr 05 18:14:56 <rimworlder> SB - exactly those arguments. do you think its the editor's "fault" for trying to make sf more 'literary'

Apr 05 18:15:05 * aldo (~aldo@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 18:15:07 <Fred_of_Worlds> People are amazed that TOM SWIFT is still in publication, and the fact that there are new stories interest them more than 100 years of past stories they haven't read

Apr 05 18:15:10 <Lensman> Of course there are exceptions. Heinlein *always* had well-developed characters.

Apr 05 18:15:11 <SolBelter> science outmoded. good govtts [not bad]

Apr 05 18:15:11 * aldo has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Apr 05 18:15:12 <Fred_of_Worlds> hey aldo

Apr 05 18:15:19 <Fred_of_Worlds> long time no . . .

Apr 05 18:15:25 <rimworlder> lol

Apr 05 18:15:32 * Hippy returned, ready to face the day if he can actually see it :)

Apr 05 18:15:39 <Fred_of_Worlds> hey hip

Apr 05 18:15:40 <Lensman> That was odd...

Apr 05 18:15:46 <SolBelter> not editors fault

Apr 05 18:15:56 <rimworlder> any pet theories?

Apr 05 18:16:00 <SolBelter> they [mostly] follow readers $$

Apr 05 18:16:17 <rimworlder> SB - that kind of runs counter to the words I see the editors writing...

Apr 05 18:16:37 <Fred_of_Worlds> oh, and STAR TREK

Apr 05 18:16:39 <SolBelter> and try sloweer more "literate" novels at their peril re $ tho critically well received

Apr 05 18:16:49 <Ronn> RW: Cats rule the world?

Apr 05 18:16:50 <Lensman> Pet theories? It's all the fault of Ellison, darn him to heck, for introducing "mainstream" writing techniques into SF. ;-)

Apr 05 18:16:51 <Fred_of_Worlds> people are all atwitter about this 'remastered' Trek

Apr 05 18:16:57 <SolBelter> most sf/fant is series now, by reader demand

Apr 05 18:17:01 <rimworlder> ronn - lol, but true

Apr 05 18:17:13 <Fred_of_Worlds> as if bad video game level FX somehow make the stories more enjoyable

Apr 05 18:17:58 <Ronn> SB: not to mention that it insures getting your money in perpetuity . . .

Apr 05 18:18:03 <rimworlder> well, ok. I sense more than that. I see a deliberate attack on 'classic', as if obliterating it would somehow make the genre more 'legit' and I see active attemtps to do so

Apr 05 18:18:04 <SeanS> well, fred, as i mentioned to you after seeing 'the ultimate computer', Elaan of Troyus left much to be desired

Apr 05 18:18:11 <SolBelter> new! Improved! ,, fred...

Apr 05 18:18:29 <Ronn> Fred is new and improved?

Apr 05 18:18:38 <rimworlder> yeah, he's a fleet now

Apr 05 18:18:39 <Fred_of_Worlds> I'm not new

Apr 05 18:18:44 <Fred_of_Worlds> Trek's not improved

Apr 05 18:19:21 <SolBelter> sure, riw, many try to scuffle the past to appear respectible in acedamia-seen that since 60s new wavers...

Apr 05 18:19:39 <Fred_of_Worlds> did you see they painted Romulan war birds on the Klingon ships in ENTERPRISE INCIDENT?

Apr 05 18:19:46 <Lensman> The market has most definitely changed. When I was young, there were only a few SF novels published per month. Most SF was in magazines, and editors were in charge. Now, many many SF/F books are published each month, but most get shorter print runs. So a publisher's investment in any individual author is less. And for big-name authors, editors no longer rule. Authors now tell editors what to do, not vice versa. If an author doesn't like a compan

Apr 05 18:19:49 <Ronn> So, Hippy, did you put on your glasses> :)

Apr 05 18:19:50 <SolBelter> down the memory hole with this, mr winston smitih!

Apr 05 18:19:51 <rimworlder> sb - but new wavers were more about saying - we want respect for what we're trying to do

Apr 05 18:20:15 <Ronn> "Respect must be earned"

Apr 05 18:20:19 * fealtyX (~fealtyX@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 18:20:35 <Fred_of_Worlds> TANJ!

Apr 05 18:20:42 <Hippy> Good morning, fealtyX

Apr 05 18:20:43 <Fred_of_Worlds> (that was an Oath of Fealty)

Apr 05 18:20:51 <rimworlder> true ronn, but these days you can dominate the discussion of you're willing to blather on the internet and find a bunch of parrots to follow you around

Apr 05 18:20:51 <fealtyX> Hi

Apr 05 18:21:10 <SolBelter> rt, not mocking them , but they were one grp of many who elided the past, not worthy to be cited as footnotes

Apr 05 18:21:15 <Ronn> awk!

Apr 05 18:21:42 <SolBelter> i meant they woulndt cite past, not calling them unworthyt

Apr 05 18:23:00 <SeanS> was enterprise incident in the season 1 reissue? i cant remember... and i am not at home to check

Apr 05 18:23:27 <Fred_of_Worlds> no, it's season 3

Apr 05 18:23:29 <Ronn> The "enhanced" version aired here this weekend

Apr 05 18:23:35 <SolBelter> ,blank look re ent inc>

Apr 05 18:23:35 <Lensman> Academics and intellectials are embarrassed, or act as tho they're embarrassed, at the Classic SF writing style, and even more embarrassed at the pulp writing style. Note John Clute's snide remarks on the Lensman series, both in his /Encyclopedia of Science Fiction/ and in his intros to the Old Earth Books editions of the Lensman series.

Apr 05 18:23:35 <rimworlder> its a culture of who shouts the loudest now, not based on quality or reality

Apr 05 18:24:03 <SeanS> oh, then i will see it when i get back from Fla... i cant usually pull it till sunday

Apr 05 18:24:20 <Lensman> "The Enterprise Incident" was 3rd season Classic Trek, if that's your question.

Apr 05 18:24:29 <SeanS> i have dish network so it doesnt air on a channel that i get

Apr 05 18:24:40 <SolBelter> ok all - i'm enjoying this but need food ... :)

Apr 05 18:24:42 <rimworlder> I'll skip the second question for now.

Apr 05 18:24:45 <SolBelter> take care!

Apr 05 18:24:48 <rimworlder> later SB

Apr 05 18:24:53 <Fred_of_Worlds> Did you see that season 2 of Trek 'enhanced' isn't being released HD or Blu-ray?

Apr 05 18:24:55 <Ronn> Also it doesn't help that most of the authors of classic SF are dead now, so only L. Ron Hubbard is turning out new books . . .

Apr 05 18:24:56 <Fred_of_Worlds> only SD

Apr 05 18:25:15 <Fred_of_Worlds> that's an interesting point Ronn

Apr 05 18:25:21 <rimworlder> LOL. you'll be seeing Tom Cruise's byline on those any day now...

Apr 05 18:25:21 <Fred_of_Worlds> maybe there's a 'dead author' bias

Apr 05 18:25:29 <SeanS> have to use some creative aquisition techniques to watch them here

Apr 05 18:25:46 <Lensman> Doesn't surprise me that it's not being released on HD-DVD, which is now a dead format. I suppose they'll eventually re-package it for Blu-Ray.

Apr 05 18:25:58 <rimworlder> I don't think its DAB so much as it is 'they can't defend themselves'

Apr 05 18:26:07 <Fred_of_Worlds> I was hoping they'd cancel the project

Apr 05 18:26:21 <Fred_of_Worlds> it was funded by Toshiba, just to have 'HD only' content

Apr 05 18:27:20 <rimworlder> its not polite to kick dead science fiction authors

Apr 05 18:27:26 <rimworlder> when they're dead...

Apr 05 18:27:29 <Lensman> We have frequent discussions on the Piper list about how modern readers don't seem to be interested in Piper. I think that's quite natural. Older stories do get outdated. Some become classics-- witness H.G. Wells, Verne and the Lensman series. But most sink into obscurity. There's no "conspiracy" there; it's quite natural.

Apr 05 18:27:54 <Ronn> RW: not sanitary, either

Apr 05 18:28:38 <rimworlder> lensman - true. But I don't buy the 'outdated' argument at all. people still read dickens, bronte, zane grey, etc., etc and they don't complain about the tech being outdated or the clothes being old styule...

Apr 05 18:28:39 <Lensman> I still very much enjoy Piper, but a younger reader may not be interested in reading stories about a future with no solid-state electronics.

Apr 05 18:28:41 <Ronn> Speaking of classics: what do you call the little cups of mercury at the bottom of barometers?

Apr 05 18:29:00 <rimworlder> then they can just ignore it dammit. that's NOT the story!

Apr 05 18:29:58 <Ronn> Ah, yes, the starship's calc-room full of clacking relays . . .

Apr 05 18:30:00 <rimworlder> I'm very pissed off about the whole thing if you can't tell.

Apr 05 18:30:24 <Lensman> Speaking of classic SF, I'll take this opportunity to plug S.M. Stirling's /The Sky People/. It's a modern reinterpretation of Burroughs' Venus stories, and I found it *very* enjoyable. Followed by a sequel set on classic Mars, which I haven't yet read.

Apr 05 18:30:45 <rimworlder> which can be put down to background...hell, I learned how to use a slipstick in school and now they're making clculators required equiopment for math classes

Apr 05 18:31:07 <Ronn> But Dickens, et. al., plots don't *depend* on the tech like SF . . .

Apr 05 18:31:20 <rimworlder> I think I'm going to go pick an argument with a Kzin...

Apr 05 18:31:40 <rimworlder> ronn - how much of the plot of little fuzzy depended on tech?

Apr 05 18:32:03 <Lensman> Rimworlder: Oh, I agree, it's a tragedy that Piper won't be getting a new round of publishing, except in public-domain editions. Please understand, it's not that I disagree, it's that I see that's the way of the world. The old gives way to the new.

Apr 05 18:32:19 <rimworlder> and the complainers site language, clothing, even the kind of stores folks go into. (There's no walmart, I guess that author wasn't prophetic enough_

Apr 05 18:32:22 <Ronn> As a T.A. I would take my old Pickett plank to class to see who came up with the answers first: me or the students with calculators . . .

Apr 05 18:32:44 <rimworlder> lol, ronn

Apr 05 18:33:09 * fealtyX has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Apr 05 18:33:13 <Lensman> On the Piper list, there's frequent mention of the "cocktail hour". I don't really see that as outdated... bars have the "happy hour", after all.

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Apr 05 18:33:24 <Ronn> RW: very little. I was talking about SF in general.

Apr 05 18:33:24 <rimworlder> I see the root as a lack of imagination. old sf - you had to participate in the story, it was required. New sf/media - sit back and watch

Apr 05 18:33:40 * SolBelter has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Apr 05 18:34:04 <rimworlder> now I'm driving people sorry for the rant.

Apr 05 18:34:38 * fealtyX has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Apr 05 18:34:44 <rimworlder> I honestly don't think that anyone who didn't have to listen to radio plays can really appreciate something that requires THEM to fill in the blanks.

Apr 05 18:35:03 <Ronn> Or maybe it's because it's getting to be supper time in the U.S. . . .

Apr 05 18:35:07 <rimworlder> maybe

Apr 05 18:35:52 <rimworlder> ok. at least I'm not the only one that sees it. I'm gonna go have a fight with the Kzin to get it out of my system. Anyone want a rug?

Apr 05 18:35:55 <rimworlder> later

Apr 05 18:36:00 <Lensman> It's the same with movies. I hear many younger people say they don't watch anything older than "Star Wars". "Sky Captain" flopped big-time because younger viewers couldn't relate to the film's techniques and style. I saw several complaints about how blurry the picture was; obviously these people don't understand "soft focus".

Apr 05 18:36:14 * rimworlder has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Apr 05 18:36:49 * Hippy afk again

Apr 05 18:37:01 <Lensman> Similarly, there are lots of people who won't watch B&W movies. For me, the line is with silent films. I have a lady friend who helps run the Kansas Silent Film Festival, but the stagy acting in the vast majority of those films is simply something I can't connect with.

Apr 05 18:37:10 <Ronn> "afk"?

Apr 05 18:37:35 <Fred_of_Worlds> away

Apr 05 18:37:36 <Fred_of_Worlds> from

Apr 05 18:37:40 <Fred_of_Worlds> keyboard

Apr 05 18:37:46 <Ronn> oic

Apr 05 18:37:53 * Hippy is now known as LurkingHip

Apr 05 18:37:54 <Ronn> thx

Apr 05 18:38:00 <Fred_of_Worlds> Y

Apr 05 18:38:01 <Fred_of_Worlds> W

Apr 05 18:38:28 <Fred_of_Worlds> sky captain's ads made my eyes bleed

Apr 05 18:38:33 <LurkingHip> I can no longer read this, and the TTS agent ahs shut down again, so I shall just lurk and get Narrator to read the log back at a later time

Apr 05 18:38:38 <Fred_of_Worlds> I couldn't imagine sitting through 90 minutes of it

Apr 05 18:39:05 <Lensman> Fair warning, Fred: Any disparagement of "Sky Captain" will be taken as "Them's fightin' words!"

Apr 05 18:39:14 <Fred_of_Worlds> it had paltrow in it

Apr 05 18:39:27 <Fred_of_Worlds> can't disparage it any harder than that!

Apr 05 18:39:31 <Fred_of_Worlds> :P

Apr 05 18:39:37 <Lensman> I count that as a plus.

Apr 05 18:39:41 <Lensman> :P

Apr 05 18:39:44 <Ronn> There are some ads that after sitting through them I'd have sworn the ad lasted 90 minutes.

Apr 05 18:40:03 <Fred_of_Worlds> best part of BSG last night was the IRON MAN ads

Apr 05 18:40:12 <Fred_of_Worlds> worst part of the IRON MAD ads was paltrow

Apr 05 18:40:20 <SeanS> looking forward to iron man

Apr 05 18:40:28 <Fred_of_Worlds> luckily they seem to be trying to only show the back of her head as much as possible

Apr 05 18:40:37 <Lensman> I hate, loathe and dispise 5-minute-plus movie ads which tell you the entire story. In order. Why, then, should I pay to see what you just summarized for me for free?

Apr 05 18:40:39 <Ronn> "IRON MAD"?

Apr 05 18:40:42 <Fred_of_Worlds> I have a countdown widget going for IRON MAN Sean :)

Apr 05 18:40:55 <SeanS> cool

Apr 05 18:41:22 <SeanS> looking forward to indy as well ;)

Apr 05 18:41:41 <Fred_of_Worlds> 79 Days 17 hours 20 minutes 30 seconds from

Apr 05 18:41:42 <Fred_of_Worlds> NOW

Apr 05 18:41:43 <Lensman> I've heard raving for "Iron Man". Frankly, what I saw on BSG didn't impress me all that much. It was okay, but I didn't see anything worth raving over.

Apr 05 18:42:07 <Fred_of_Worlds> Lens, the Iron Man ads and previews are getting worse as they go

Apr 05 18:42:19 <Fred_of_Worlds> mostly 'cause they're adding more Paltrow :)

Apr 05 18:42:48 <SeanS> the superbowl ad was awesome

Apr 05 18:42:56 <Fred_of_Worlds> I think the ads and previews are shifting from the hands of the movie makers and into the hands of the marketing department

Apr 05 18:44:07 <Lensman> I thought Paltrow did a wonderful job re-creating the "cool blonde" personality of the late thirties-early forties movies. She was absolutely dead-on perfect for "Sky Captain". Jude law was less so. He played it a bit too soft and "touchie-feely" for a rock-jawed, steel-sinewed hero.

Apr 05 18:44:35 <SeanS> i didnt like the look of sky captain so have yet to watch it

Apr 05 18:44:42 <Lensman> Mind you, I like Law very much in most of his movie roles. I'm just not sure he was right for that part.

Apr 05 18:44:56 <Fred_of_Worlds> I read (maybe on the niven list) someplace that they should have cast Zeta Jones as Diana in THE PHANTOM

Apr 05 18:45:12 <Fred_of_Worlds> "since when is Diana Palmer a blonde anyway?"

Apr 05 18:45:25 <Fred_of_Worlds> Sean, what you said about Sky Captain

Apr 05 18:45:35 <Lensman> How can any true SF fan not like a movie with giant robots? Some review I read said something like "SF cinema was *made* for giant robots!" Right on!

Apr 05 18:46:09 <Lensman> *Snif* I am surrounded by Philistines.

Apr 05 18:46:13 <SeanS> well, if it is not appealing to me, why should i watch it. if you liked it more power to ya ;)

Apr 05 18:47:10 <SeanS> its like i love Hitchhiker but why would I want to watch the movie when i have the radio show and tv show

Apr 05 18:47:14 <Lensman> I don't really care if they switched the hair color of Walker's gf. What I *do* care about is they couldn't come up with a good story.

Apr 05 18:47:22 <Fred_of_Worlds> I think the point was

Apr 05 18:47:30 <Fred_of_Worlds> they cast the part badly

Apr 05 18:47:41 <Fred_of_Worlds> trying to make Diana the cool blonde you were talking about

Apr 05 18:47:58 <Fred_of_Worlds> as long as they had Zeta Jones in the movie anyway, should have made her Diana

Apr 05 18:48:18 <Fred_of_Worlds> I'm not sure I agree, since I thought she was an excellent black leather villainess

Apr 05 18:48:47 <Lensman> I don't even remember "The Phantom" that well. I found it pretty forgettable.

Apr 05 18:49:06 <Fred_of_Worlds> I'd agree that Kristy Swanson was the weak link, casting wise

Apr 05 18:49:12 <Fred_of_Worlds> but then she usually is

Apr 05 18:50:45 <Lensman> Anyway, if even Niven fans-- or a significant portion thereof-- don't like "Sky Captain", the audience for the movie is even narrower than I realized. :(

Apr 05 18:51:14 <Fred_of_Worlds> Total number of people I know that liked Sky Captain

Apr 05 18:51:17 <Fred_of_Worlds> including you

Apr 05 18:51:18 <Fred_of_Worlds> 1

Apr 05 18:51:37 <SeanS> well, the wife of a good friend liked it so make that number 2

Apr 05 18:51:40 <Fred_of_Worlds> It's been on my Amazon wish list for years, and nobody will even give it to me

Apr 05 18:51:50 <Lensman> It was a hit with my Laser Rangers group. We teamed that with "Raiders" and had one of our biggest turnouts ever.

Apr 05 18:52:20 <Fred_of_Worlds> are people looking forward to or fearing Indy 4?

Apr 05 18:52:48 <Lensman> Did you even *watch* the film? Much of the art design looked like it had been ripped right from /Amazing/ covers. Honestly, I'm puzzled that anyone who calls himself a Classic SF fan wouldn't simply *love* this movie.

Apr 05 18:52:49 <SeanS> i am looking forward to it. but was also looking forward to Hitchhiker till i started reading prescreening reviews

Apr 05 18:53:28 <Lensman> I'm fearing Indy 4. The track record is not encouraging.

Apr 05 18:53:48 <Fred_of_Worlds> sadly, we agree

Apr 05 18:53:50 <SeanS> well, 1 and 3 are great... hopefully its not an even number curse

Apr 05 18:54:01 <Fred_of_Worlds> and David Koepp alone is enough to keep me from most movies

Apr 05 18:54:05 <Lensman> I'd much rather watch the BBC miniseries than the Movie of HHGTTG.

Apr 05 18:54:50 <Fred_of_Worlds> I'd have rather seen Christy Carlson Romano as Indy's daughter than Shia LaBeouf as Indy's son

Apr 05 18:54:53 <Lensman> I thought Indy 3 was fairly good, but only because it imitated the first film so much. I wouldn't call it "great" by some margin.

Apr 05 18:54:55 <SeanS> like i said, i have the original radio show and the miniseries. Nick was good enough to send me a copy of tertiary phase

Apr 05 18:55:05 <Fred_of_Worlds> if you really have to cast somebody from Even Stevens

Apr 05 18:55:31 <Fred_of_Worlds> Agreed Lensman. Like Jedi, Crusade is a remake of the first film

Apr 05 18:55:46 <SeanS> lets just say i have indy 1 and 3 in my collection but not the 2nd one

Apr 05 18:55:52 <Fred_of_Worlds> hah

Apr 05 18:55:55 <Fred_of_Worlds> I have the box set

Apr 05 18:55:59 <Fred_of_Worlds> got 'em all

Apr 05 18:56:11 <Fred_of_Worlds> never cracked open Temple of Doom

Apr 05 18:56:24 <Lensman> Sean: Oh? Did you throw the 2nd one away? There are many disgruntled Laser Rangers over the fact that you have to buy the entire set.

Apr 05 18:57:15 <Lensman> In fact, we have a running joke about 2nd-hand bargain bins being filled with the 2nd title... ;-)

Apr 05 18:57:31 <Fred_of_Worlds> yeah

Apr 05 18:57:40 <Fred_of_Worlds> should have charged extra for just the 2 movies

Apr 05 18:57:44 <SeanS> lets just say i borrowed a friend's boxed set

Apr 05 18:57:54 <Lensman> OIC

Apr 05 18:57:56 <Fred_of_Worlds> were car keys involved?

Apr 05 18:58:16 <Fred_of_Worlds> sssceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeratch

Apr 05 18:58:35 <SeanS> he got the full set back

Apr 05 18:59:26 <SeanS> temple was entirely toooo gimmicky for me

Apr 05 18:59:33 <Fred_of_Worlds> hey

Apr 05 18:59:40 <Fred_of_Worlds> I saw . . . damn, where

Apr 05 18:59:44 <Fred_of_Worlds> within the last 2 weeks

Apr 05 18:59:56 <Fred_of_Worlds> somebody selling replicas of the monkey head soup bowls

Apr 05 19:00:41 <SeanS> well, that scene was interesting... its the roller coaster ride (sometimes literally) of stunts that i didnt like... indy was totally not in control

Apr 05 19:00:57 <Lensman>

Apr 05 19:01:30 <Fred_of_Worlds> I said to my viewing accomplices at the time that Spielberg was in love with Capshaw and was throwing the movie away to favor her

Apr 05 19:01:40 <Fred_of_Worlds> boy, did I call *that* one :)

Apr 05 19:02:11 <SeanS> at least in 3, he was figuring stuff out instead of having it thrown at him

Apr 05 19:02:22 <Lensman> But that's not a replica, it's the actual prop.

Apr 05 19:02:38 <Fred_of_Worlds> yeah, this was somebody selling 'em for home use :)

Apr 05 19:02:45 <Fred_of_Worlds> not sure if they were soup safe

Apr 05 19:02:51 * growler (~growler@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 19:02:57 <SeanS> hi euan

Apr 05 19:03:01 <growler> yo

Apr 05 19:03:09 <Fred_of_Worlds> groowwwwwwwwwwwllllllllll

Apr 05 19:03:11 <Lensman> The roller coaster could have been wonderful, as an amusement park ride... or in a different movie.

Apr 05 19:03:35 <growler> never been on a roller coaster

Apr 05 19:04:16 <SeanS> i guess my main point with indy 2 is there was virtually no archaeology which is what attracted everyone to indy in the first place

Apr 05 19:04:36 <Fred_of_Worlds> "you call this archaeology??"

Apr 05 19:04:39 <Lensman> I like roller coasters, so long as they're not too extreme. At one point our local park, "World of Fun", had IIRC the 2nd tallest wooden coaster in the world. It was too much for me. But otherwise, I love roller coasters!

Apr 05 19:05:12 <SeanS> okay, or lets intellectually figure out incredible traps

Apr 05 19:05:30 <growler> indy 2 sucked loudly, with rushing air try to fill a complete void of story

Apr 05 19:05:35 <Lensman> Well, a fantasy version of archaeology, and one where the archaologist destroys everything in his path to get to a goal.

Apr 05 19:06:00 <SeanS> i agree with both euan and david with those last 2 statements

Apr 05 19:07:09 <Lensman> I did like the bit in IIRC Indy 3 where Indy tells his class "And 'X' never, never marks the spot", but later in the movie, of course it did.

Apr 05 19:07:21 <growler> schelieman famously destroyed a lot of Troy trying to dig up priams treasure

Apr 05 19:07:22 <SeanS> that is in indy 3

Apr 05 19:07:41 <Ronn> roller coasters -- we're back to the topic of vomit?

Apr 05 19:07:45 <growler> you go there and there's this big ten metre wide trench dug strasight through many layers of city

Apr 05 19:07:45 <NickE> gotta hit hay. night all

Apr 05 19:07:57 <Fred_of_Worlds> Nick Nite

Apr 05 19:08:16 * NickE has quit ()

Apr 05 19:08:48 <Lensman> To be fair, back in the days of Carter, who broke into King Tut's tomb, they *did* go around using dynamite and pick axes to break into tombs. So perhaps the Indy approach to archaeology isn't out of bounds for the period.

Apr 05 19:09:03 <Lensman> LOL Ronn!

Apr 05 19:10:25 <SeanS> so back to the original point, i am looking forward to indy 4 being a good adventure movie in keeping with 1 and 3. no basis other than the trailer tho

Apr 05 19:10:58 <Ronn> I'm still hopeful about it . . .

Apr 05 19:11:23 <Lensman> As always, I will hope for the best, but fear the worst.

Apr 05 19:11:24 <Fred_of_Worlds> I'm not lining up for it

Apr 05 19:11:35 <Fred_of_Worlds> IRON MAN, I've already got plans in place :)

Apr 05 19:11:48 <growler> I know exactly which seat I'll be watching IronMan from

Apr 05 19:12:19 <SeanS> in all honesty, when 2 came out, when i was what 15, it was awesome 1 time. when was 2 released

Apr 05 19:12:29 <SeanS> didnt check

Apr 05 19:12:37 <Fred_of_Worlds> I was looking forward to YOUNG INDIANA JONES on DVD until I found out George retconned 'em

Apr 05 19:13:16 * FlyingAway back from movie: Anakin is now Darth Vader

Apr 05 19:13:21 <Lensman> Did you like that series? I found it ranged from mediocre to exceptionally boring.

Apr 05 19:13:35 <SeanS> 84... so i was 15-16

Apr 05 19:13:37 <Fred_of_Worlds> I never liked the baby jones stories

Apr 05 19:13:42 * FlyingAway is now known as FlyingDragon

Apr 05 19:13:46 <Fred_of_Worlds> the older were interesting

Apr 05 19:13:47 <SeanS> never got into the young indy stuff

Apr 05 19:14:04 <FlyingDragon> Star wars? Agree

Apr 05 19:14:10 <Lensman> The baby episodes would be, for the most part, the "exceptionally boring" ones.

Apr 05 19:14:10 <Fred_of_Worlds> but the DVD releases are the 'movie' compilation edits, and they've cut old indy out completely

Apr 05 19:14:13 * FlyingDragon hopes you weren't shocked to know the ending.

Apr 05 19:14:27 <Lensman> Carol: No, we're talking Indiana Jones movies.

Apr 05 19:14:34 <SeanS> you have ruined it for me carol... may god have mercy on your soul

Apr 05 19:14:34 <Fred_of_Worlds> Carol, I still haven't watched Star Wars 2 & 3

Apr 05 19:14:41 <FlyingDragon> Ah, indy. Liked the movies, first best, others not so good.

Apr 05 19:14:42 <Fred_of_Worlds> I only saw 1 a few weeks ago

Apr 05 19:14:45 <growler> movies need to start getting better - have to say it's getting real hard to find a reason to go to the theatre rather than my home set up.

Apr 05 19:14:47 <Ronn> FD: I see you read my mind . . .

Apr 05 19:15:05 <FlyingDragon> Fred, certainly you KNEW that about Anakin!!!!

Apr 05 19:15:09 <SeanS> i dont go to the theater any more

Apr 05 19:15:12 <Fred_of_Worlds> best part of 1 was Kiera Knightlly as the Princess

Apr 05 19:15:13 <Lensman> Actually I *was* shocked at the end of SW3. Shocked that I could have written a better scene for the transformation of Anakin into Vader than Lucas did.

Apr 05 19:15:22 <FlyingDragon> DOn't recall.

Apr 05 19:15:30 <Fred_of_Worlds> 2 was so bad, I was laughing so hard, I had to turn it off 5 minutes in

Apr 05 19:15:37 <FlyingDragon> What would you have eriten, LEnsman?

Apr 05 19:16:07 <Lensman> 2 was the best of the prequel trilogy. Really.

Apr 05 19:16:21 <SeanS> which isnt saying much, david

Apr 05 19:16:25 <FlyingDragon> Is that where Padme and Anakin got married?

Apr 05 19:16:31 <Fred_of_Worlds> wow. the princess's ship sputtering up to the planet like a '57 chevy in space

Apr 05 19:16:36 <Fred_of_Worlds> I couldn't stand it

Apr 05 19:16:41 <growler> Goddamit - they're -2, -2, -3. This renumbering thing is nonsense and should not be accommodated.

Apr 05 19:16:45 <SeanS> carol, yes at the end

Apr 05 19:17:28 <Ronn> Yeah, right after she says "give me a hand" . . .

Apr 05 19:17:33 <SeanS> ;)

Apr 05 19:17:37 <FlyingDragon> It was after Episode 2, (SW 5!!!!) that I made my Amidala and Anakin costumes.

Apr 05 19:17:54 <growler> Who here has watched Simon Pegs "Spaced"? Especially the episode where he gets fired?

Apr 05 19:18:11 <FlyingDragon> No me

Apr 05 19:18:11 <Fred_of_Worlds> knot eye

Apr 05 19:18:12 <SeanS> not i

Apr 05 19:18:30 <Lensman> Carol: We're told that it's anger which turns you to the dark side of the force. I would have had Palpatine tell Anakin: "Padme really loved you, she had decided to come back and rejoin you. But THEY (Jedi) feared what would happen if you had her support. So THEY killed he so she couldn't help you!

Apr 05 19:18:46 <Ronn> 2nd try: he lets her take his arm . . .

Apr 05 19:19:43 <Lensman> SW3 should have ended with an enraged Vader shouting "I shall have my revenge!" Not a wimpy Vader sniveling "Oh, I'm feeling so guilty!" That is NOT the Darth Vader I know and... er... respect.

Apr 05 19:20:31 <growler> It's hilarious - Simon Pegs character works in a comic store and the scene starts with him yelling at an unseen customer "You weren't there! You didn't know what it was like, how world changing it was!"...

Apr 05 19:20:33 <Lensman> Sean: Re not saying much: Yah.

Apr 05 19:20:47 <FlyingDragon> REvenge on Whom? Lord sidious told Darth vader that he killed his wife. WHile he was lying about acutally murdering her, it was indeed because of his decisions that she died....

Apr 05 19:21:09 <growler> Really dresses this guy down. So as the scene goes on, camera pulls back, we learn the customer is a ten year old kid and he's asked for a Ja Ja Binks action figure.

Apr 05 19:21:22 <Lensman> Simon Pegg? No.

Apr 05 19:21:47 <Fred_of_Worlds> revenge on a plant?

Apr 05 19:22:18 <growler> So the boss ocmes out (played by Bill Bailey, the characetrs named Bilbo) and says "Let it go! It's been nine months since Phantom Meneance came out, let it go!"

Apr 05 19:22:31 <SeanS> lensman: tho i did like th yoda vs duuku fight up until the sabers came out

Apr 05 19:22:48 <FlyingDragon> Was that in two?

Apr 05 19:22:50 <growler> Bilbo fires Pegg becasue he can't have his customers being yelled out for liking the Phantom Menance

Apr 05 19:22:50 <Lensman> Carol: But that's the point! Palpatine telling Anikin that he (Anikin) was responsible for Padme's death makes no sense. That is NOT the way to manipulate someone into becoming your apprentice!

Apr 05 19:23:42 <growler> Later in the episode Bilbo comes to the new comic shop Pegg is working in, wanting him to come back because it isn't the same without him...

Apr 05 19:24:27 <growler> ...Pegg has to get himself fired so he yells to his new boss "Hey Mike, you know Babylon 5? It's shit". And has to sprint out the door to avoid retribution.

Apr 05 19:24:33 <SeanS> i will have to look into it, euan

Apr 05 19:24:42 <Lensman> Sean: Oh yah. Watching Yoda as a warrior was the best part of the movie! But that was in SW2, was it not? Pretty sure it was. I enjoyed seeing him bounce around, even if it was over the top.

Apr 05 19:25:16 <SeanS> the saber fight was too cartoonish.... the force knowledge and ability battle was so much better

Apr 05 19:25:33 <growler> "Spaced" was two series made by Simon Pegg and his usual cohort of Brit comedians. It was all heavy pop culture referecnes - there was the Zombie episode, the x-files episode etc etc

Apr 05 19:25:34 <Lensman> *Shrug* to each his own.

Apr 05 19:25:37 <FlyingDragon> grwler, funny

Apr 05 19:25:50 <FlyingDragon> I liked it when yoda kicked butt!!!!

Apr 05 19:26:31 <SeanS> so euan, spaced was to live action heavy pop comedy as family guy is to animated same?

Apr 05 19:26:35 <Lensman> Carol is a lady of rare wisdom and discernment. By which I mean, she agrees with me. ;-)

Apr 05 19:27:12 <Fred_of_Worlds> one or the other dude

Apr 05 19:27:18 <Fred_of_Worlds> :)

Apr 05 19:27:21 <SeanS> hehe

Apr 05 19:27:25 <growler> Er, I wouldn't compare it to fmaily guy

Apr 05 19:27:34 <growler> It was much more strcutrued

Apr 05 19:27:38 <growler> oops, structured.

Apr 05 19:27:54 <FlyingDragon> Stop the presses! Lensman and Dragon agree!!!!

Apr 05 19:28:04 <SeanS> well, when i get back from florida next week, i will see about seeing it

Apr 05 19:28:10 <SeanS> spaced that is

Apr 05 19:29:15 <Ronn> Crud. I'm starting to feel bad again. Guess I should feed the cat and then go lie down.

Apr 05 19:29:16 <growler> The basic plot was a guy and a girl pretend to be a couple to get a flat intended for couples together. The landlords having an affair with the tortured artist who rents one room. Simon Pegg wants to be an comic artist, the girl an author. Cue day to day life heavily imbued with pop culture references

Apr 05 19:29:50 <growler> Much more subtle than somethingl ike Family Guy

Apr 05 19:30:11 <SeanS> understandable with brit comics

Apr 05 19:30:25 <growler> Kind of thing you might not get some jokes until seeing them a second time.

Apr 05 19:30:45 * Ronn has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Apr 05 19:30:47 <FlyingDragon> Ronn, feel better soon.

Apr 05 19:30:52 <FlyingDragon> darn, missed him

Apr 05 19:31:17 <growler> And re: Anakins turing to the darkside - I worte better crap than that when I tried to write stories for fnazines in my teens. and I wrote atrocious crap.

Apr 05 19:31:41 <SeanS> carol, did jon say what the list problem was?

Apr 05 19:32:33 <FlyingDragon> No, I didn't hear that from him. Just that he was trying to figure it out.

Apr 05 19:34:05 <SeanS> just wondering

Apr 05 19:34:37 <Lensman> I guess it was serious. The list was down for, what, a day and a half? Two?

Apr 05 19:35:06 <SeanS> could of just been mailman crashing or not starting automatically after a reboot

Apr 05 19:35:32 <Lensman> I thought the climatic scene in SW3 was badly written, badly staged, badly directed. >:-(

Apr 05 19:36:26 <FlyingDragon> The performance of the actor playing Anakin was, at best, wooden. He was trying to play "detached" I know, but it didn't come off.

Apr 05 19:36:35 <FlyingDragon> the fire planet part?

Apr 05 19:36:52 <Lensman> There were other problems, like the fight over the lava lake. Why didn't the two burst into flames? I suppose they were using the Force to protect themselves, but the film should have given us a clue that this is what was going on.

Apr 05 19:37:02 <FlyingDragon> It seems that whenever a Jedi leaves someone alive out of compassion, that person comes back to ahunt them.

Apr 05 19:37:20 <FlyingDragon> Obiwan Kenobi should have finished Anakin off.

Apr 05 19:38:58 <growler> Nearly all actors in those prequels were wooden - remeber Liam Neeson saying he wanted to quit acting if that was how it was going to be - standing around in front of a green screen folling precison directions without soul?

Apr 05 19:39:21 <growler> I personally feel the only person who came away looking good was Ewen McGregor

Apr 05 19:39:41 <SeanS> i agree

Apr 05 19:39:56 <FlyingDragon> Which one is he?

Apr 05 19:40:05 <SeanS> obi wan

Apr 05 19:40:30 <FlyingDragon> Ah. He was a great choice for young Obi-wan

Apr 05 19:40:47 <FlyingDragon> One could beleive it was a young Sir Alec Guinness.

Apr 05 19:41:33 <SeanS> probably the best cast role

Apr 05 19:41:45 <FlyingDragon> NAtalie POrtman did a good job.

Apr 05 19:42:23 <FlyingDragon> But I has a hard time with the entire concept of an elected queen, a pre-teen girl, who served for a short time, wearong weird ostentacious clothes, and had areal say in politics.

Apr 05 19:42:25 <SeanS> well, she looked good

Apr 05 19:43:21 <Lensman> Yah, Ewan is the only one who came off looking good. I *know* the actress who played Padme is quite skilled-- she was nominated or won an Oscar last year, right? Apparently Lucas told her to play it flat. They even had some of her lines dubbed by the actress playing her double. And let's not even get into how painful the dialog on the love scenes was...!

Apr 05 19:44:02 <Lensman> Carol: Yes, a teenager *elected* as a queen is just silly.

Apr 05 19:44:10 <FlyingDragon> Lucas shouldn't be allowed to direct. And he needs a ghost writer/editor.

Apr 05 19:45:02 <Lensman> What Carol said.

Apr 05 19:45:18 <FlyingDragon> An heriditary pre-teen queen, I can understand, but she would have advisors who held the REAL power, untill she became an adult/more worldly.

Apr 05 19:45:29 <FlyingDragon> We agree again??????

Apr 05 19:45:38 <growler> Yep, he's a good producer, lousy director and absoutely appalling philosopher. I am way with David Brin on that one.

Apr 05 19:46:04 <Lensman> Carol: I hope you're kidding... I think we agree more often than not.

Apr 05 19:46:07 <SeanS> i think the spielberg as director and lucas as producer is a good match

Apr 05 19:46:14 <Fred_of_Worlds> ick

Apr 05 19:46:24 <growler> Everyone's seen these aritclffff

Apr 05 19:46:29 <growler> Er, articles

Apr 05 19:46:34 <Fred_of_Worlds> what was the last good movie SS directed? CE3K? and then he messed it up?

Apr 05 19:46:47 <growler> Basically Brin rips Lucas a new one for being a fascist arse.

Apr 05 19:46:47 <FlyingDragon> WHat did he mess up?

Apr 05 19:47:00 <Fred_of_Worlds> the special edition

Apr 05 19:47:08 <growler> Er, CE3K was Speilberg.

Apr 05 19:47:14 <FlyingDragon> Lots of people (Christians mostly) got messed up with the virgin birth of Anakin.

Apr 05 19:47:18 <Lensman> Spielberg/Lucas did quite well on Indy #1, that's certain.

Apr 05 19:47:24 <growler> The last good movie Lucas directed was Star Wars.

Apr 05 19:47:28 <FlyingDragon> It was a fun movie. DOn't take it too seriously.

Apr 05 19:47:33 <growler> Hit his zenith right there.

Apr 05 19:47:55 <growler> Indy one rocked.

Apr 05 19:48:01 <SeanS> i think messing it up was the studio's idea

Apr 05 19:48:49 <Lensman> The "inside the spaceship"

Apr 05 19:49:07 <Lensman> ending to CE3K special edition was dictated by the studio.

Apr 05 19:50:05 <Lensman> But I strongly disagree with removing certain scenes, such as where Roy tears up the chicken wire and throws bricks thru his window. Thank goodness the DVD Special Edition restored most of the deleted scenes.

Apr 05 19:50:06 <Fred_of_Worlds> there was lots more not to like

Apr 05 19:50:10 <Fred_of_Worlds> than the ending

Apr 05 19:50:15 <Fred_of_Worlds> what lens said

Apr 05 19:50:20 <Fred_of_Worlds> about the duck pond

Apr 05 19:50:49 <Fred_of_Worlds> in the original, our hero has a loving wife and family, and drives them away through increasing erratic behavior

Apr 05 19:50:58 <SeanS> i have the 25th anniversary edition but have not watched it in some time

Apr 05 19:51:15 <Fred_of_Worlds> in the 'special edition' he's mildly eccentric and his wife blows town

Apr 05 19:51:27 <Fred_of_Worlds> in the original he gives up a lot to go with the aliens

Apr 05 19:51:29 <SeanS> guess i will have to watch it when i get back

Apr 05 19:51:35 <Fred_of_Worlds> in the 'special edition' he doesn't

Apr 05 19:51:45 <Lensman> We did CE3K for Laser Rangers recently, and debated which version to show. So there's a reason I'm more familiar with the various versions.

Apr 05 19:52:24 <SeanS> the way he got barry to behave in the farmhouse was phenominal

Apr 05 19:52:31 <Fred_of_Worlds> I like a couple shots in the special edition, like the boat in the desert, but as for a story I vastly prefer the originbal

Apr 05 19:52:58 <Lensman> The "bricks thru the window" scene is one of my favorite scenes in the movie. I'm astonished Spielberg cut it for the Special Edition.

Apr 05 19:53:05 <Fred_of_Worlds> yes

Apr 05 19:53:19 <Fred_of_Worlds> what't the worst he does in the SE? carve his mashed potatoes?

Apr 05 19:53:34 <Lensman> Sean: Yah, that story is wonderful, including why the kid says "Toys!", which was spontaneous.

Apr 05 19:53:58 <SeanS> yeah, the whole story is on the making of dvd

Apr 05 19:55:06 <FlyingDragon> Are we still atlking about CE3K? Why does the kid say "toys!" and when does he say it?

Apr 05 19:55:41 <SeanS> in the kitchen scene when the clown you dont see holds up a toy.. if i remember right

Apr 05 19:56:00 <SeanS> and i dont think that i do

Apr 05 19:56:02 <Lensman> Speaking of mashed potatoes, here's a Laser Ranger re-creating that scene...

Apr 05 19:56:07 <Lensman>

Apr 05 19:56:47 <Fred_of_Worlds> and you let these people have sharp objects?

Apr 05 19:56:50 <Fred_of_Worlds> :)

Apr 05 19:56:51 <Lensman> Every time the kid did a scene, Spielberg would give him a toy afterwards. So naturally he came to associate seeing the director with getting toys...

Apr 05 19:57:16 <Lensman> LOL! I'll tell Ken you said that.

Apr 05 19:57:22 <FlyingDragon> Sean, I don't remember, and tthere are too many movies out there for me to want to re-watch that movie right now.

Apr 05 19:57:23 <Fred_of_Worlds> :)

Apr 05 19:57:33 <Fred_of_Worlds> "meat so tender, you can cut it with a spork"

Apr 05 19:57:45 * FlyingDragon is getting ready to watch "Winter Spring Summer Fall"

Apr 05 19:57:56 <SeanS> thinking on it, it is when the kitchen goes nuts

Apr 05 19:57:59 <Fred_of_Worlds> "all you've got to do is call"

Apr 05 19:58:08 <Fred_of_Worlds> "and I'll beeeeeeeee-eee there"

Apr 05 19:58:13 <Fred_of_Worlds> "You've got a Fred"

Apr 05 19:58:37 <SeanS> toys, toys.... sun's here

Apr 05 19:58:47 <SeanS> coming through the door

Apr 05 19:59:20 <FlyingDragon> THat is a smart thing to do. "You do what I want, and I'll give you a new toy!"

Apr 05 20:00:36 <Lensman> Yah, the finer points of contract negociation are probably beyond most five-year-olds. <Lensman ducks>

Apr 05 20:01:42 <FlyingDragon> True though.

Apr 05 20:05:22 <Lensman> Well, today's chat was the most intense of any I've participated in. Sean, I would greatly appreciate it if you'd send me a copy of the chat log. I haven't figured out how to create one using mIRC, and there's some info I'd like to mine for a news item or two for the site.

Apr 05 20:06:09 <SeanS> i wont be able to till i get back from florida. i shut down my remote access machine

Apr 05 20:07:11 <Lensman> Is there a command in mIRC to create a log? Or does that require a more advanced program than the shareware I'm using?

Apr 05 20:07:38 <SeanS> if you open up options and select logging, it should be self explanatory

Apr 05 20:08:05 <SeanS> i logged all the chats with mirc before i switched to linux

Apr 05 20:08:20 <Fred_of_Worlds> options?

Apr 05 20:08:41 * SeanS tells lensman this for the 2nd time but there was a lot of chatter going on

Apr 05 20:09:06 <SeanS> yeah, looks like a tool set and when you hover over it it says options... in mirc that is

Apr 05 20:09:19 <Fred_of_Worlds> oh. I'm in safari

Apr 05 20:09:30 <Fred_of_Worlds> got 'disconnect' and 'channels'

Apr 05 20:09:46 <Fred_of_Worlds> about all I can do is change font and color and nick

Apr 05 20:09:48 <SeanS> mirc here on the laptop at my girlfriends. dont know the commands for safari

Apr 05 20:11:11 <SeanS> at home i use xchat under linux

Apr 05 20:12:00 <Lensman> Sean: Well, I appreciate your efforts, but I see no "Logging" option/tab/whatever in the "Options" menu of the mIRC version I'm using, v6.21

Apr 05 20:12:30 <SeanS> ok, click tool, options

Apr 05 20:13:26 <SeanS> in every version of mirc i have, the 2nd icon option underneath file-tool and such is the options button

Apr 05 20:13:41 <SeanS> i can explain it to you but i cant understand it for you

Apr 05 20:14:35 <SeanS> file-view.. my bad

Apr 05 20:16:01 <SeanS> but if you click on the word tools, options is at the bottom. same thing just different way of getting there

Apr 05 20:16:58 <Lensman> I have drop-down menus for "File", "View", and under "Tools" is the "Options" menu. Don't see any "Logging" selection anywhere.

Apr 05 20:17:47 <SeanS> when you click tools then options, it should show a list of options on the left. logging is one of them

Apr 05 20:19:11 <FlyingDragon> LEnsman what program do you use?

Apr 05 20:19:27 <Lensman> I see a tree in the left column with lots of options, but "Logging" isn't one of them, nor am I seeing that in any of the sub-menus. I think you must have an "I paid for it" version.

Apr 05 20:19:36 <SeanS> he uses mirc

Apr 05 20:19:45 <FlyingDragon> In Trillian, I go to preferances, then activity history.

Apr 05 20:19:50 <SeanS> no i dont... i have to wait for the reg screens to go away

Apr 05 20:19:50 <Lensman> Carol: mIRC v 6.21

Apr 05 20:20:01 <FlyingDragon> ah. I don't remember mIRC

Apr 05 20:20:06 <Lensman> Well then I should be using Trillian, I guess.

Apr 05 20:20:21 <SeanS> well, i use 6.31 of mirc...

Apr 05 20:20:23 <Lensman> I mean, I have Trillian installed, I just haven't been using it for this chat.

Apr 05 20:20:40 <SeanS> and i have not paid for it or cracked it... it is a shareware copy

Apr 05 20:20:57 <FlyingDragon> I love Trillian.

Apr 05 20:21:14 <SeanS> so did frank... he was always trying to get me to switch

Apr 05 20:21:23 <Lensman> *Shrug* I don't know why I don't see it, but again thanks for trying Sean. Next month I'll see about connecting with Trillian.

Apr 05 20:21:56 <Lensman> I use Trillian to look for AOL users online, it never occurred to me to use it for this chat.

Apr 05 20:22:56 <FlyingDragon> You want the log?

Apr 05 20:23:11 <Lensman> Carol: Yes, please!

Apr 05 20:23:51 <SeanS> i cant send the log till i get back from florida

Apr 05 20:23:53 <FlyingDragon> Looking for it

Apr 05 20:24:04 * SeanS is not at home

Apr 05 20:24:07 <FlyingDragon> I know where it shoudl be, just don't know how to get there.

Apr 05 20:24:20 <SeanS> david, if you look for where to log, i am sure you can find it

Apr 05 20:26:38 <FlyingDragon> Know where it is, got there, just cant open it.

Apr 05 20:26:54 <SeanS> i should be back friday

Apr 05 20:28:14 <SeanS> if i remember right, i have been logging chats since mirc 2.31. the option is there

Apr 05 20:28:44 <SeanS> the only real improvement with mirc since then is multiserver support

Apr 05 20:34:07 <FlyingDragon> NEone else want a log?

Apr 05 20:34:23 * FlyingDragon has it cut and pasted unedited into a letter.

Apr 05 20:34:40 <SeanS> i already have it... just at the house

Apr 05 20:34:45 * Lensman has quit ()

Apr 05 20:34:54 * Lensman (~lensman@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 20:36:16 <FlyingDragon> Lensman is the only one who wants the log?

Apr 05 20:36:40 <SeanS> immediatly i think... others will wait on me

Apr 05 20:37:13 <Lensman> Okay Sean, I got it, the "Logging" option isn't under any of the drop-down menus I mentioned, it's accessed by clicking on the icon to the left of the "file" menu.

Apr 05 20:37:14 <FlyingDragon> Okay, well remember that it needs editing for Aldo before it goes to anyone who wasnt here.

Apr 05 20:37:22 <Lensman>

Apr 05 20:37:40 <SeanS> well, your version may vary

Apr 05 20:37:48 <Lensman> Yah, the comments Aldo made regarding Freefall and KS need to be deleted.

Apr 05 20:38:15 <Lensman> Again, Sean, thanks for your efforts.

Apr 05 20:38:15 <SeanS> then dont post it and i will take care of it when i get back from FL

Apr 05 20:38:48 <FlyingDragon> That is the sort of thing we usually post on KS and send people a link.

Apr 05 20:39:01 <FlyingDragon> Lensman, you want to clean it up and mail it to Mark?

Apr 05 20:39:54 <SeanS> lensman, he is set up to convert from my format... dont mess with him

Apr 05 20:39:59 <Lensman> If you would be so kind as to send it to me, I'll be glad to do that. It's only his mention that... well tanj if I say it I'll have to delete it again. Anyway, it shouldn't be much that needs deleting.

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Apr 05 20:40:31 <SeanS> he will have to change the script that converts it if you send it

Apr 05 20:40:37 <Lensman> Sean: Sorry, you lost me.

Apr 05 20:40:48 <Lensman> "He" who?

Apr 05 20:41:08 <FlyingDragon> What? the log is a text file now.

Apr 05 20:41:13 <FlyingDragon> I think he means Mark?

Apr 05 20:41:13 * growler (~growler@ has joined #knownspace

Apr 05 20:41:13 <SeanS> mark runs a script to convert from the log file to his web format. if you send it, it wont convert correctly

Apr 05 20:41:28 <growler> Weeee, new series of Battlestar Galactica and Dr Who

Apr 05 20:41:48 <Lensman> I see. Were you here earlier when Aldo was talking about Freefall, Sean?

Apr 05 20:42:01 <SeanS> yes

Apr 05 20:42:06 <SeanS> i know what to take out

Apr 05 20:42:32 <Lensman> Growler: Yah, I recently joined a BSG "over 30" online discussion group. Not much discussion, tho. :(

Apr 05 20:42:38 <Lensman> Sean: Okay, good.

Apr 05 20:43:53 <SeanS> when i switched from mirc logs to xchat logs, mark firestone had to change his conversion script. no reason to change it again

Apr 05 20:44:17 <Lensman> Carol, I'd still appreciate it if you'd send me the file. I can glean news items from it, but I'll leave it to Sean to pass the offical log onto Mark.

Apr 05 20:44:29 <SeanS> carol, changing to a pure text log would require him to change again

Apr 05 20:44:54 <FlyingDragon> I sent it as plain text imbedded in a letter.

Apr 05 20:45:05 <Lensman> Thanks!

Apr 05 20:45:19 <FlyingDragon> I don't know how to send it any other way. I'm not sending the entire file, as it has ALL text from ALL sessions in the room.

Apr 05 20:45:23 <SeanS> my log is time stamped and firestone is set up for that

Apr 05 20:46:01 <SeanS> with the high ascii to account for xchat's format

Apr 05 20:46:13 <SeanS> Euan knows what i am talking about i am sure

Apr 05 20:46:29 <Lensman> I think I can parse that.

Apr 05 20:46:40 <growler> I hope they do end BSG this season - seemed to be putting a lot of filleri n the end of last

Apr 05 20:47:04 <FlyingDragon> I have it time stamped too, but it would be the SAME time stamp as YOURS since we're in different time zones!

Apr 05 20:47:16 <SeanS> i am looking forward to Who but kinda fell out of BSG

Apr 05 20:47:31 <Fred_of_Worlds> ack, I'm dreading WHO

Apr 05 20:47:34 <growler> Today is the first dya of going off daylight saving here this year. Sigh, Winter is looming.

Apr 05 20:47:36 <Lensman> Yah, I thought leaving the Cylon menace behind made for a rather tedious plotline. Glad to see they returned with a pull-out-the-stops battle in the new episode!

Apr 05 20:47:37 <SeanS> carol, what i am talking about is the characters you dont see to format the timestamp

Apr 05 20:47:43 <Fred_of_Worlds> that christmas bride episode was horrible

Apr 05 20:47:56 <Fred_of_Worlds> I can't believe she's gonna be the new companion

Apr 05 20:48:09 <Fred_of_Worlds> I think I'll just skip it 'til Martha shows up again

Apr 05 20:48:18 <FlyingDragon> k

Apr 05 20:48:19 <growler> Well, I'm still scared they don't actually have a good cylon story - I always liked the idea of religious cylons, after all, they KNOW they were made....

Apr 05 20:48:24 <SeanS> that irritates me, fred, but Nick said that it was a good ep

Apr 05 20:48:43 <growler> but increasingly it seems the writers don't have a coherent plot for the cylons, that there is no real plan

Apr 05 20:48:51 <growler> and it's going to stink up the end

Apr 05 20:48:58 <FlyingDragon> Gotta go feed the next generation.

Apr 05 20:49:18 <FlyingDragon> PRobably end up having to go to the store. No milk in the house, and I need coffee in the morning!!!!

Apr 05 20:49:34 <growler> I liked Martha, but apparently she wasn't very popular. Why do producers bother polling people wihtn o taste?

Apr 05 20:49:39 <Fred_of_Worlds> yeah, I need to go dinner shopping

Apr 05 20:49:41 <Lensman> Growl: I dunno. It's the best-written SF show ever on TV, in my opinion. I *hope* they'll pull off a satisfying conclusion, but we'll see.

Apr 05 20:49:44 <SeanS> leaving out of here at 5am... will buy a cup or 2 at a gas station

Apr 05 20:49:48 <SeanS> i loved martha

Apr 05 20:49:50 <Fred_of_Worlds> martha wasn't popular?????????????????????????????????

Apr 05 20:50:05 <Fred_of_Worlds> she was the best thing that happened to TORCHWOOD as well

Apr 05 20:50:07 <FlyingDragon> I gather you gentlemen aren't discussing Martha Stewart?

Apr 05 20:50:11 <Fred_of_Worlds> no

Apr 05 20:50:12 <growler> Pfft, I saw a web site claing BSG was best SF ever and like so many things it's just a good recent program.

Apr 05 20:50:17 <Fred_of_Worlds> Dr. Who companion

Apr 05 20:50:19 <FlyingDragon> See you guys.

Apr 05 20:50:23 * FlyingDragon is now known as FlyingAway

Apr 05 20:50:24 <Fred_of_Worlds> nite carol

Apr 05 20:50:29 <Lensman> I'm talking about "Battlestar Galactica"

Apr 05 20:50:33 <Lensman> Nite, Carol.

Apr 05 20:50:41 <growler> I prefer Firefly, but I understand something so breif ouoghtn't be in the runnig. Only counts really if it goes on long enough.

Apr 05 20:50:42 <FlyingAway> NIght all.

Apr 05 20:50:46 <FlyingAway> See you on teh list.

Apr 05 20:51:19 <Fred_of_Worlds> I'm gonna make like a banana and leaf

Apr 05 20:51:26 <Fred_of_Worlds> nite lady and gentlemen

Apr 05 20:51:34 <growler> Some of BSG is absolutely appalling - especially the episodes that thought it was the U.S having elections.

Apr 05 20:52:01 * Fred_of_Worlds has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Apr 05 20:52:19 <Lensman> It's aimed at a U.S. audience, so I can see it might well have less appeal for y'all.

Apr 05 20:53:03 <growler> That doesn't excuse bad writing - the obvious episodes paralleling Iraq were good because they worked in context, the election ones didn't work in context.

Apr 05 20:53:28 <SeanS> i think scar or 2 eps past that are the last i have seen

Apr 05 20:53:43 <growler> It's quite a big problem for BSG that they fail to create a convincing other worldiness when neccessary - it's a little to haphazard where and how they choose to be different

Apr 05 20:54:29 <growler> Scar was a good character peice on stressed combat pilots, quite excellent as a stand alone.

Apr 05 20:54:30 <Lensman> Well, obviously it's a matter of taste or opinion. The occupation/iraq parallels were the only ones which left a bad taste in my mouth, and I certainly wouldn't call that bad writing... just too close to home for comfort.

Apr 05 20:54:31 <SeanS> hmm, colonizing a world is the last i have seen

Apr 05 20:56:02 <Lensman> Are we down to three in the room?

Apr 05 20:56:17 <growler> Wasn't bad writing at all - I thought it was a su[rsingly brave bit of work giving how cowardly and compliant U.S media has been over it. Nice to see artists putting real meaning and commentary in their work

Apr 05 20:56:39 <growler> That sort of courage produces enduring art.

Apr 05 20:57:22 <growler> I'm still enjoying BSG - I just have this nagging worry there's going to be a bit of a void regarding cylons at the end. Hoping to be proved wrong.

Apr 05 20:57:51 <Lensman> Oh yah, it was the fact the episodes were making me squirm that I didn't like. That's not a sign of bad writing... rather the opposite. It's just that it caused me to "fall out of the story"... to think about real-world events instead of being immersed in the program.

Apr 05 20:59:31 <SeanS> i dont remember specifically what it was but something turned me off... that was at least a year ago

Apr 05 20:59:58 <Lensman> I'm surprised that on the BSG chat group, a couple of people talked about how they might use this or that weapon/technique to end the Cylon threat. I think it's quite clear the story isn't going in that direction at all. That's much too simple, and ignores many, many clues and directions the series has been moving towards.

Apr 05 21:02:54 <growler> There can be no way to end the cylon threat - cylons ought be too vastly dispersed to ever destroy by now. It's all about humanity finding away to make peace, or the cylons realising their plan.

Apr 05 21:03:21 <SeanS> sounds logical

Apr 05 21:03:33 <growler> It's just what could the plan be?

Apr 05 21:04:02 <growler> To consume humanity weithin Cylons? To blend with humanity to closer approach god (or similar religiously inspired thinking)?

Apr 05 21:04:08 <SeanS> like i said, i havent watched it for a while so i cant have an opinion

Apr 05 21:04:30 <growler> To simply reveal a truth cylons know?

Apr 05 21:05:22 <growler> I'm interested in finding out what the writers have - but i'm suspicious that it's something worthwhile. I've been smelling an absence of continuity in Cylon behaviour that leads me to suspect no real plan at all.

Apr 05 21:05:23 <Lensman> Right, I think that at least the Cylons and humans will make peace. More likely, there will be some sort of mystical/spiritual fusion between the two.

Apr 05 21:06:29 <growler> A really brave writer might have the conclusion be a revelation about some fundemental fact of reality - that reveals the existence of a real god (or at least manufacturer of humanity).

Apr 05 21:07:13 <growler> I also suspect everyone might be cylons - the colonies being an experiment to understand the people (now long gone) that first made cylons in their image.

Apr 05 21:07:42 <growler> And the thirteen colong, 'Earth' being the orginal Cylon homeworld or the like.

Apr 05 21:07:46 <Lensman> There's been speculation that Starbucks return from wherever-the-heck-she-was is a retelling of the "Ship of light" plot from the old BSG. I have no idea what they're talking about, but if so this would seem to be some sort of more-or-less concrete manifestation of the gods.

Apr 05 21:08:17 <Lensman> "Everyone might be Cylons".... oh, now THAT is good!

Apr 05 21:08:30 <growler> I've got the original series (and amazingly it stands up better than I recalled when I watch some). might go find that epsiode and watch it.

Apr 05 21:09:07 <Lensman> There's the recurring "This has all happened before, and will again", which if everyone is a Cylon perhaps makes more sense.

Apr 05 21:09:16 <growler> I'm hoping the ending is going to be brave story teling - they've dmeonstrated the courage to do it so far. Hoping they don't whimp out.

Apr 05 21:09:39 <Lensman> What you said.

Apr 05 21:10:19 <growler> There could be advanced people behind the scenes pulling the strings. It's all a manipulated experiment etc etrc

Apr 05 21:10:37 <growler> \Just hope they wouldn't do it's all a computer simulation. That'd piss me off. Seems unlikely.

Apr 05 21:10:58 <SeanS> i am getting tired of julie's ex... lens, wanna come up here and kick his ass for me?

Apr 05 21:11:02 <Lensman> We had a bit of an argument over the origin of humanity. They said there was a quote on the show that humans originated on Kobol. I personally hope Earth will turn out to be the actual origin, because if not then (like Known Space) we have to treat it as an alternate reality.

Apr 05 21:11:40 <Lensman> "Julie's ex"? Sorry, "this song I do not know".

Apr 05 21:11:59 <SeanS> her ex husband... i cant do it... do you want to?

Apr 05 21:12:23 <SeanS> i cant do it for social reasons but you are an unknown

Apr 05 21:12:50 <SeanS> i would ask euan but he is on the other side of the planet

Apr 05 21:13:10 <Lensman> I'm fairly confident they won't cop out with a "Matrix" scenario or any other such nonsense. I've seen shows which clearly had no direction. "Twin Peaks", "Lost" are two examples. BSG doesn't at all appear to be one of those. Like B5, it seems to know where it's going.

Apr 05 21:13:29 <growler> Wouldn't be able to do it today - off to play football in half an hour. first game of the season. It's gonna hurt.

Apr 05 21:14:35 <SeanS> dont let the knee bother you too much

Apr 05 21:14:37 <Lensman> Sure Sean, I'll be glad to do whatever an over-50, out of shape couch potato can do. Just send me the air fare... :)

Apr 05 21:15:07 <growler> My knee has been weird all week. Hurting in all the wrong places.

Apr 05 21:15:22 <SeanS> well, probably not much. he is my height maybe 200 lbs. i am 6 foot, 185

Apr 05 21:16:08 <SeanS> he doesnt bother me, but if i beat him down, the kid probably wouldnt like it... like i said, social reasons

Apr 05 21:16:54 <SeanS> sorry, just had to listen to a bitch session from julie about the ex

Apr 05 21:17:22 <SeanS> i will excise this part of the log as well ;)

Apr 05 21:18:15 <Lensman> My sister had a semi-abusive boyfriend (she finally had him charged with assault and she left him) who seemed to think he could intimidate me by threatening to punch me. Finally he did this when we had other relatives over. I took off my glasses and laid them aside, and told him I was tired of his threats, and to go ahead and give me his best shot. That ended his attempts to bully me.

Apr 05 21:18:21 <SeanS> lens, you would freak if a check for a few hundred showed up

Apr 05 21:19:04 <Lensman> I think I'm fairly safe in calling your bluff, Sean. Go ahead and surprise me. :)

Apr 05 21:19:19 <SeanS> dont want to spend the money, i am going gigabit when i get back from florida

Apr 05 21:24:28 <Lensman> Looks like conversation has died down. I'm going to multi-task.

Apr 05 21:24:36 * Lensman is now known as Lensman_free

Apr 05 21:27:16 <growler> off to footy, ciao

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