Sep 01 16:11:00 <EML> Hi, all. Is there a first Saturday chat on?
Sep 01 16:19:01 <EML> Hmm ... doesn't seem like anyone else is in.
Sep 01 16:19:06 <Lensman> Yes!
Sep 01 16:19:15 <EML> Hi, Lensman!
Sep 01 16:19:32 <Lensman> I was just thinking I should have mentioned this chat in my latest e-mail to you, as I know you've been here before.
Sep 01 16:19:50 <Lensman> So, what news if any on /Juggler of Worlds/?
Sep 01 16:21:19 <EML> JUGGLER is turned in to our editor. Best guess is still publication around September-October of 2008.
Sep 01 16:21:50 <Lensman> Well there is *supposed* to be a 1st Saturday chat on-- I wonder where everyone is? Not everyone's gone to Nippon 2007, surely?
Sep 01 16:22:06 <Lensman> A year after FOW. Well that makes sense.
Sep 01 16:22:37 <EML> Not that many US pros went to Japan. I can't speak for the fans.
Sep 01 16:22:55 <Lensman> Have you discussed any collaborations with Larry beyond that? Or any possibility of you doing a solo KS story?
Sep 01 16:23:57 <Lensman> I know several fans, personally, who went to Nippon because Kansas City is bidding for the 2009 WorldCon, and I live in K.C. But yah, going is so expensive that relatively few will go, either fans or pros.
Sep 01 16:24:27 <EML> A little talk. Nothing definitive. A lot depends on how well FLEET does.
Sep 01 16:26:20 <EML> KC. Ah, BBQ. When I disappear in a little while, it'll be to start up the grill. Here in Virginia, it's been too hot for weeks to BBQ. I've been in withdrawal.
Sep 01 16:26:23 <Lensman> I think it will do very well. Another list member says he thinks it's Larry's best since /Mote/! I liked it very much, too.
Sep 01 16:27:42 <EML> Thanks to you both. If FLEET is as well received as MOTE, I'll certainly be delighted.
Sep 01 16:27:50 <Lensman> We have a gas grill permanently mounted on the rear deck. Very convenient, I regularly grill chicken quarters that way. Altho "real" BBQers say you must use charcoal for the taste!
Sep 01 16:28:16 <EML> Yup, I'm in the charcoal camp.
Sep 01 16:29:22 <Lensman> Yah, but it takes so much time to prepare a proper bed of coals, and you can't turn the heat up or down as you can with a gas grill. Well, as my bud says "Everything has the defects of its qualities."
Sep 01 16:31:14 <Lensman> Several of us were happy to hear you say Larry declared /A Darker Geometry/ to be out of canon. I'm assuming Larry has accepted Hal Colebatch's "Telepath's Dance", because Larry's "Fly-By-Night" summarizes the story of TD. Has Larry given any other indications to you about what MKW stories are officially included or excluded from canon?
Sep 01 16:31:55 <EML> No he hasn't.
Sep 01 16:33:20 <EML> So, all you (few) others presently logged in .... que passa?
Sep 01 16:33:42 <Lensman> So, if you can give a "yes" or "no" without giving a spoiler, will JOW tell us why the Outsiders follow starseeds?
Sep 01 16:34:24 <Lensman> SeanS and probably SeanLog are the servers, not really here. I dunno about the others.
Sep 01 16:34:47 <EML> I don't want to say more than that JUGGLER reveals much about Outsiders.
Sep 01 16:34:56 <Lensman> -k-
Sep 01 16:35:42 <EML> Between the holiday weekend and the con, perhaps it's not surprising we're here alone.
Sep 01 16:36:15 <Lensman> Well yah, holiday weekend would certainly keep fen otherwise occupied.
Sep 01 16:36:45 <Lensman> The list volume (Larry Niven discussion list) has dropped radically the past 2-3 days, too, probably for the same reason.
Sep 01 16:37:45 * Hippy (~email@example.com) has joined #knownspace
Sep 01 16:37:46 <EML> I think I'm going to drop ... nice chatting with you.
Sep 01 16:38:03 <EML> Oops ... I typed too soon. High, Hippy!
Sep 01 16:38:12 <Hippy> Howdy, everyone
Sep 01 16:38:14 <Lensman> Hi Hippy!
Sep 01 16:38:24 <Hippy> Hi, Dave
Sep 01 16:38:45 <Hippy> How's it going on this fine Sunday morning? Or whatever time it is. . .
Sep 01 16:39:02 <EML> Are you in Japan, Hippy?
Sep 01 16:39:18 <Lensman> EML, have you discussed Known Space tech in detail with Larry? Some of us are curious about how the Thrintun/Slaver hyperdrive works. It seems to work on an entirely different principle from Outsider Hyperdrive.
Sep 01 16:39:18 <Hippy> I wish!
Sep 01 16:39:26 <Hippy> Melbourne, Australia
Sep 01 16:40:05 <Lensman> It's Saturday afternoon here in sunny Kansas, US of A.
Sep 01 16:40:06 <EML> Well, Hippy, consider it in your honor when I leave in a few to put stuff the barbie.
Sep 01 16:40:30 <Hippy> I shall. You're a gentleman
Sep 01 16:40:56 * InvisibleDragon (~Carol@188.8.131.52) has joined #knownspace
Sep 01 16:41:04 <Lensman> Hi Carol!
Sep 01 16:41:08 <Hippy> Afternoon, Carol
Sep 01 16:41:11 * InvisibleDragon looks around
Sep 01 16:41:20 <InvisibleDragon> You can see me?
Sep 01 16:41:25 * Hippy is guesing at the time. It's a bit early for calculation here
Sep 01 16:41:37 <Hippy> Indeed we can
Sep 01 16:41:59 <Lensman> Nah, but we can hear your thoughts! :)
Sep 01 16:42:06 <Hippy> You're looking quite svelte, too, if I may say so, for a large, fire-breathing, teleporting reptile
Sep 01 16:42:10 <EML> I don't claim expertise on the Thrintun or Tnuctipun (including whether I spelled them right). That said, I do know that Thrintun and Outsider drives operate on different principles.
Sep 01 16:42:34 <EML> Hi, Carol.
Sep 01 16:42:37 * InvisibleDragon is now known as FlyingDragon
Sep 01 16:43:18 <FlyingDragon> Hello, guys!
Sep 01 16:43:24 <FlyingDragon> pmahon, you made it!
Sep 01 16:43:41 <pmahon> Well, I know where this place is.
Sep 01 16:43:42 <FlyingDragon> Hippy, is svelt good for a huge firebreathing dragon??
Sep 01 16:43:47 <Lensman> Glad to see you, Carol, Hippy. I was beginning to wonder if we were going to have a real chat!
Sep 01 16:44:04 <FlyingDragon> Lazzed in bed, went shopping with my son....
Sep 01 16:44:20 <EML> No reluctant dragons, then ...
Sep 01 16:44:46 <Hippy> Much the same here. The spirit was willing, but the flesh was slightly hungover and getting up before the sun does is. .. difficult
Sep 01 16:45:24 <FlyingDragon> Keegan wanted something out of me, that is why he was willing to go shopping.
Sep 01 16:45:53 <FlyingDragon> If he didn't offer to go with me, he would be SURE I would go shopping according to HIS schedule.
Sep 01 16:45:58 <Lensman> Yah, depends on whether you want to go for the thin-and-snaky dragon, ala "Dragonslayer", or the more large-bodied dragon, like "Reluctant Dragon" or "Pete's Dragon".
Sep 01 16:46:37 <Hippy> I always think of the Pernese ones
Sep 01 16:46:42 <FlyingDragon> I am more large bodied, definitly. What is the "reluctant Dragon" besides my progeny?
Sep 01 16:47:13 <EML> It turns out Larry is going to do a podcast this wekeend from Nippon 2007. See http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/005565.html
Sep 01 16:47:18 <Hippy> Isn't it something by George R R Martin. . .?
Sep 01 16:47:51 <Hippy> Excellent! I shall tune into that
Sep 01 16:48:21 <Lensman> http://www.disneyanaexchange.com/Photobin/WZZ-Reluct.jpg
Sep 01 16:48:55 <Lensman> A not-very-fierce dragon. I thought "The Reluctant Dragon" was just a Disney cartoon, but I see a book by the same name.
Sep 01 16:49:02 <EML> A long-ago song: "I'm the reluctant dragon! What ho, quite so!"
Sep 01 16:49:39 <Hippy> All this dragon lore. . .
Sep 01 16:49:49 <Lensman> Ah, so Larry *is* at Nippon 2007! I wondered about that.
Sep 01 16:50:52 <Hippy> Now I'm even more envious of the people who made it. I wish I'd planned ahead enough to go now
Sep 01 16:51:16 <Hippy> Does anyone know where the 2009 Con is going to be?
Sep 01 16:51:30 <EML> Did any of you go to NASFiC (near St. Louis this year)?
Sep 01 16:52:36 <Lensman> 2009 is being voted on. Winner to be announced this evening (USA time). Bidders include Kansas City and Toronto.
Sep 01 16:52:45 <FlyingDragon> I only look fierce.
Sep 01 16:53:06 <Hippy> Ooh! Go Toronto!
Sep 01 16:53:27 <EML> Rob Sawyer posted (about 6 hours ago) Montreal in 2009. http://www.sfwriter.com/2007/09/why-having-worldcon-in-canada-in-2009.html
Sep 01 16:53:35 <Lensman> I *wish* I could have gone to NaSFic... if I weren't poor I would have! William Warren went, but is terribly disappointed-- only sold one piece of art.
Sep 01 16:53:59 <FlyingDragon> Sorry for Warren.
Sep 01 16:53:59 <Lensman> Grrr... Go Kansas City!
Sep 01 16:54:00 <Hippy> Vive Montreal, then
Sep 01 16:54:14 <FlyingDragon> Fans don't typically have a lot of money.
Sep 01 16:54:19 <EML> I was at NASFiC this year (my first). It was fun, but no substitute for a Worldcon.
Sep 01 16:54:25 <Hippy> Kansas City is too confusing for us foreigners. We might spend days at the wrong one
Sep 01 16:54:42 <EML> LOL, Hippy.
Sep 01 16:55:02 <FlyingDragon> I once went to the wrong hotel for a con. Tahnk goodness it was in my city, so I eventually figured out which hotel it was at.
Sep 01 16:55:21 <Lensman> Well, if K.C. loses, at least we won't have to do all that hard work. But we'll miss the excitement!
Sep 01 16:55:51 * Hippy imagines Carol looking around. 'Poor turnout for the Con. I blame all these Playstations. NObody goes out anymore'
Sep 01 16:56:07 <Lensman> Hippy: At least you know 'nuff to know there are two Kansas Cities! Before I moved here, I thought it was just one-- in Kansas. (Wrong on both counts!)
Sep 01 16:56:18 <FlyingDragon> To make matters worse, I was in costume, on a moped.
Sep 01 16:56:43 <EML> Montreal will be nice, but my guess is it will be a small con. Worldcon in Toronote in 2003 was small.
Sep 01 16:56:54 <Hippy> That shouldn't turn a head in. . .the whole of Texas. . .
Sep 01 16:56:58 <Lensman> That sounds like the beginning of a story. "I was in costume, on my moped, when..."
Sep 01 16:57:02 <FlyingDragon> This was in Tulsa, and the hotel I had erroneously THOUGHT the con was at was in the Oral Roberts section of town.
Sep 01 16:57:18 <EML> Dragon on a moped ... hmmm.
Sep 01 16:57:30 <Lensman> The less said about TorCon, the better.
Sep 01 16:57:30 <Hippy> Good God!
Sep 01 16:57:40 <FlyingDragon> It was a Dr. Who costume, with a LONG scarf.
Sep 01 16:58:00 <Lensman> Well that's appropriate! Scarf trailing in the wind...
Sep 01 16:58:04 <Hippy> I may have different impressions of 'small'. Melbourne in 1999 was pretty big, or seemed to be
Sep 01 16:58:18 <Hippy> Isadora Dragon
Sep 01 16:58:26 <EML> As the "shake and bake" commercial sort of said ... My boa is all boa.
Sep 01 16:58:27 <FlyingDragon> Ihad a three day hang over after that con.
Sep 01 16:58:43 <FlyingDragon> Whos is Isadora Dragon
Sep 01 16:59:06 <EML> Well, all ... it's time out East to make fire and burn meat. Ta-ta.
Sep 01 16:59:32 <Hippy> Isadora Duncan was a fmaous actress who used to drive around with a long trailing scarf, which sadly got caught in the wheels of her car one time. But very stylish before that
Sep 01 16:59:48 <Hippy> 'Bye, EML
Sep 01 16:59:51 <Lensman> AussieCon III had an attendance of 1872, according to /Stet 9/. Any USA WorldCon would be considerably bigger, but for an overseas WorldCon it was pretty big.
Sep 01 16:59:52 <FlyingDragon> SHe died from that
Sep 01 16:59:57 <FlyingDragon> ???
Sep 01 16:59:59 <Lensman> Bye Ed!
Sep 01 17:00:03 <FlyingDragon> see you EML. Bye
Sep 01 17:00:18 <Hippy> Sadly, yes, Carol
Sep 01 17:00:30 <EML> Bye.
Sep 01 17:00:31 <Hippy> But I was referring only to the pre-mortem stylishness
Sep 01 17:00:32 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)
Sep 01 17:00:50 <FlyingDragon> Yes.
Sep 01 17:01:13 <Lensman> Reminds me of the "Why superheroes shouldn't wear capes" stuff in "The Incredibles". :)
Sep 01 17:01:24 <Hippy> Lens, your speed with searching out answers still astounds me. 1872 for the 1999 Con? So how many at the 85 one?
Sep 01 17:02:18 <FlyingDragon> Hippy, we are all sitting at desks that have more computing power, and more access to information than computers that sent space craft to the moon.
Sep 01 17:02:37 <FlyingDragon> Hippy, how is that fine liqour I told you where to find?
Sep 01 17:02:48 <Lensman> Well, I take that back-- Intersection (Glasgow) and ConFiction (Netherlands) were considerably bigger.
Sep 01 17:03:14 <Hippy> I shamefacedly have to confess that I haven't yet ordered it, Carol. But thanks for reminding me
Sep 01 17:03:16 <Lensman> I cheated-- I had my copy of /Stet 9/ laying out where I could grab it immediately.
Sep 01 17:04:41 <Hippy> Ah. But of course England and Holland have much larger populations than us (and are easier to get to across the Atlantic). Damn tyranny of distance! Where's JumpShift when you need them?
Sep 01 17:04:54 <FlyingDragon> Hippy.... I'm so dissapointed. Did you even save teh website info?
Sep 01 17:05:08 <Lensman> '85... AussieCon Two... 1599. ConFiction... The Hague, Netherlands... 3580. Intersection... Glasgow, Scotland... 4264.
Sep 01 17:05:23 <Hippy> Sure did! I wouldn't let that information go astray!!
Sep 01 17:05:46 <Lensman> Yah, the computers on the Apollo spacecraft were *very* limited.
Sep 01 17:06:15 <Hippy> 4264! Wow! So, it would be reasonable to think Denvention will be even larger?
Sep 01 17:06:16 <Lensman> And I think I've read that the Space Shuttle uses the computing power of 5 Apple II computers?
Sep 01 17:06:20 <FlyingDragon> Hope they haven't run out!
Sep 01 17:06:43 <Lensman> JumpShift *Sigh* If only...
Sep 01 17:06:48 <FlyingDragon> The shuttle program strives for quintupple redundancy with on-line computers.
Sep 01 17:07:30 <Hippy> I was always impressed with the Voyager probes. It just shows what you can do with low computing power but no Microsoft software
Sep 01 17:08:20 <Lensman> Denvention Two in 1981 was 3792. Chicon V in 1991 was 5661. I wouldn't expect Denvention Three to be that large, but who knows?
Sep 01 17:09:06 <Hippy> Well, I am desperately trying to get at least one credit card down enough to head over there
Sep 01 17:10:36 <Lensman> Looking it up online-- Chicon VI is too recent for numbers to be in /Stet 9/-- 5,794 / 6,574. Dunno what the slash means, maybe second figure includes one-day memberships?
Sep 01 17:11:17 <Lensman> I'd heard that WorldCon memberships had started declining, but looks like the last two ChiCons were about the same.
Sep 01 17:11:33 <Hippy> Might it include members who signed up but didn't come along? I noted there were a few of those for Aussiecon III
Sep 01 17:12:46 <Hippy> Maybe Larry's notion that communications have got so good we don't need to travel is affecting them. Or indeed that a plane trip just isn't worth the hassle
Sep 01 17:12:50 <Lensman> Maybe the second includes supporting memberships. I don't think *any* con lists by who showed up and who didn't-- if you paid your fee, you get counted.
Sep 01 17:12:55 <FlyingDragon> People register even if they know they can't come, so they can vote.
Sep 01 17:13:22 <FlyingDragon> People also pay just to support a con, even if they know they won't be going.
Sep 01 17:13:49 <Hippy> So the second number in that count might include those two types
Sep 01 17:15:01 <Lensman> There are often many comments about "Well, plane fare is only $XXX, but that's ignoring reality-- add in the cost of membership, hotel room for 3-5 nights, food, and it gets quite expensive for an overseas WorldCon. Nippon is especially expensive, with high cost of airline travel to Japan, plus sky-high prices for food and lodging there.
Sep 01 17:15:54 <Hippy> I must say I was surprised they were able to get enough votes
Sep 01 17:16:14 <Hippy> Especially considering all those things (although airfare is not so bad from here)
Sep 01 17:16:47 <FlyingDragon> Well, it had to compete only with other foreign places, outside of North America, that hadn't had it in so many years, the rules are complicated.
Sep 01 17:17:17 <Lensman> Remember, you have to *pay* to vote for site selection, it doesn't come with a membership. So only those who really, really want to have a say vote. And those are mostly SMOFS, and the SMOFS give preferential treatment to overseas bids, just because it's hard for them to compete.
Sep 01 17:17:23 <FlyingDragon> A lot of the people who vote are going to be the professionals, whose magazines and publishers pay their way, rather than the fans who sleep ten to a room.
Sep 01 17:17:40 <Hippy> Is there now a guarantee that one out of three have to be outside the US? That would explain it
Sep 01 17:17:56 <FlyingDragon> There are specific rules abotu what part of the globe can bid for a worldcon in what years.
Sep 01 17:18:56 <Lensman> Actually, there's nothing in the site selection process to restrict bids to overseas bids. That's been true for quite some time, even before they eliminated the three zones.
Sep 01 17:19:11 <Hippy> I might look these up after. It sort of sounds fair, but on the other hand, Japan is a weird spot to put a WorldCon
Sep 01 17:20:14 <Hippy> So, theoretically, a hotel chain could send paying members over to bid for their city. Interesting. . .
Sep 01 17:20:56 * Hippy starts up the 'Leopoldville in 2011' campaign
Sep 01 17:21:35 <Lensman> You don't even need to attend to vote. Just pay for a supporting membership plus site selection voting fee, which this year was $50. When I voted for K.C. in 2006, it was $40.
Sep 01 17:22:08 <Lensman> Be careful, Hippy, someone might take you seriously, and then if they send you money, you're stuck!
Sep 01 17:22:12 <FlyingDragon> Are Hippy and Lensman the only people awake?
Sep 01 17:22:26 <FlyingDragon> Where's Nick?????
Sep 01 17:22:48 <Lensman> Well as Ed pointed out, it's a holiday weekend, so I spoze some are off playing hookey or visiting relatives.
Sep 01 17:23:20 <Hippy> A hotel chain oould then stack the bids just to grab the Con. But only Brisbane would be so unscrupulous. Or maybe Leopoldville
Sep 01 17:23:40 <Hippy> What's the holiday?
Sep 01 17:24:00 <Lensman> Labor Day, the traditional weekend for WorldCon.
Sep 01 17:24:45 <FlyingDragon> They know who votes. I'm sure the same names show up over and over. If a large enough block showed up with strange names, I'm sure someone would notice and they would change the rules. Anyway, I think that the cost of stuffing the box would take ALL profit they could expect from winning. IT would not be cheap sending that many people up to vote.
Sep 01 17:24:45 <Hippy> Ah. . . Ours is in March. If Paul Chafe were here he'd be linking them to some autmunal pagan rite :)
Sep 01 17:25:02 <FlyingDragon> Paul is pagan?
Sep 01 17:25:30 <FlyingDragon> Lammas is in a few weeks.
Sep 01 17:25:55 <Lensman> I suppose a hotel could afford to stuff the ballot box, yes. Hugo administrators have reserved the right to eliminate votes when it appears there's block voting going on (it's claimed this has never actually changed the outcome), so I suppose site selection could also. But if the hotel were clever and had each employee send in their own application and payment, then reimbursed them, I suppose there would be no way to detect it.
Sep 01 17:26:28 <Hippy> I don't think he's a pagan, but he wrote a learned piece on the origin of Easter a while back, and I saw fit to disagree with him because, of curse, Easter isn't in Spring on my side of the equator.
Sep 01 17:27:15 <FlyingDragon> Hippy, you all just use the wrong calendar. Christianity is an earth based religion based in the NORTHERN equator. Get your own earth based religion!!!!!!
Sep 01 17:27:23 <FlyingDragon> Got a link to that article?
Sep 01 17:28:01 <Lensman> Carol: Yes it would be too expensive to send them to vote on site, but you can vote by mail. It might be worth it for a hotel, but then if word gets around the hotels will start bidding against each other that way, would would quickly render the traditional selection process irrelevant.
Sep 01 17:28:12 <Hippy> LInk? Let me have a look. I'm not as quick as Lensman, but Paul's site www.paulchafe.com
Sep 01 17:28:31 <Hippy> I shall invent an anipodean religion this afternoon :)
Sep 01 17:29:31 <FlyingDragon> Build it on existing myths, it is more meaningful, more likely to catch on.
Sep 01 17:29:39 <Lensman> What Carol said. Pagans should be using their *own* calendar! Mayan, perhaps? That would be south-of-the-equator, wouldn't it?
Sep 01 17:30:28 <Lensman> Hippy: You must include King Neptune in the pantheon, that's who rules at crossing-the-equator ceremonies on ships. :)
Sep 01 17:30:29 <FlyingDragon> Mayan wouldn't be anitpodal enough for Hippy
Sep 01 17:30:46 <FlyingDragon> But he is still Greek, or roman...
Sep 01 17:30:57 <Lensman> Probably not. Anyway, Mayan is *very* complex.
Sep 01 17:31:19 <Lensman> Doesn't Greek or Roman qualify as Pagan???
Sep 01 17:31:30 <FlyingDragon> Yes, but not antipodal.
Sep 01 17:31:44 <Lensman> Oh, I see your point.
Sep 01 17:31:46 <FlyingDragon> He needs earth based based where HE is
Sep 01 17:32:08 <Hippy> I shall invent a Kangaroo God
Sep 01 17:32:23 <FlyingDragon> THere isn't one?????
Sep 01 17:32:36 <FlyingDragon> She can give life, and reabsorb it too.
Sep 01 17:32:38 <Lensman> I'm with Carol-- surely the Aborigines have one?
Sep 01 17:32:43 <Hippy> There's a lot of stuff on Aboriginal creation muths around, but we need something for South Africa and South America, too
Sep 01 17:32:59 <FlyingDragon> Hippy, Was this article in his blog????
Sep 01 17:33:17 <Lensman> I think I've read that article.
Sep 01 17:33:22 <Hippy> I just had a look and I can't find it, but his blog would be the only place on his site for it
Sep 01 17:33:39 * Hippy afk for a second to medicate my eye
Sep 01 17:35:12 * Hippy returned
Sep 01 17:37:25 <Hippy> What I need is a religion with many prayer times that are hard to work out, extremely varied and complicated dietary restrictions and really oppresses its members
Sep 01 17:37:40 <Hippy> Then it'll take off
Sep 01 17:38:11 <Lensman> That's odd, doesn't look like Paul Chafe keeps his older Blog postings online.
Sep 01 17:38:30 <Hippy> I'm glad you said that. I thought I was doing something wrong
Sep 01 17:38:54 <Hippy> But he's very approachable so you could email him and he would probably send you the article
Sep 01 17:39:54 <Lensman> Well I Googled <"paul chafe" easter pagan> and got bupkiss, same for ...christian. I suppose if I knew when he posted that I could use the Internet Wayback Machine to attempt to retrieve it, but my interest level isn't that high.
Sep 01 17:40:01 <FlyingDragon> Untitled
Sep 01 17:40:01 <FlyingDragon> Thursday, April 15, 2004 isn't old enough for you?
Sep 01 17:40:14 <Lensman> ?
Sep 01 17:40:39 <FlyingDragon> I find old ones.
Sep 01 17:40:43 <Lensman> But yes, I'm sure Paul would be happy to e-mail you a copy. That sounds easiest.
Sep 01 17:40:55 <Lensman> URL please?
Sep 01 17:41:16 <Lensman> I mean, URL of where you see them listed?
Sep 01 17:42:27 <Lensman> I see Paul planned to attend WorldCon.
Sep 01 17:42:29 <FlyingDragon> From his blog, go over to the right where it lists older blogs adn archives
Sep 01 17:43:03 <Hippy> I missed that.
Sep 01 17:43:29 <Lensman> D'oh! Scrolling... what a concept!
Sep 01 17:43:34 <FlyingDragon> Lensman, do you know the exact specifications for how much one can quote in a review so as to not be a copyright violation?
Sep 01 17:43:55 <FlyingDragon> One expects to scroll up and down. One forgets to scroll left and right..
Sep 01 17:44:58 <Hippy> I vaguely recall 150 words as being the limit. That is, 150 words in one bit. You can do multiple slabs of that amount, of course
Sep 01 17:45:28 <FlyingDragon> Multiple slabs of under 150 words adding up to no more than.... 10% of the total content?
Sep 01 17:45:48 <FlyingDragon> SO many words ahve to be between the selected 150 word slabs?
Sep 01 17:47:08 <Hippy> 150 words per slab, but indefinite number of slabs
Sep 01 17:47:43 <Hippy> Theoretically, then , you could quote an entire book with interstitials paragraphs of your own words, but I wouldn't like to try and defend that
Sep 01 17:48:20 <Lensman> Carol: I am sorry, but there is no exact rule. Heck, one magazine even reprinted an entire chapter from a book w/o permission, and when they were sued they won the case! I think the court made the wrong decision there.
Sep 01 17:48:47 <FlyingDragon> no % beyond which one cannot legally go?
Sep 01 17:49:40 <Hippy> Nope. You can go to 100% but the difficulty would be proving you did that for purposes of critical review
Sep 01 17:52:01 <Lensman> Here's the text straight from the horse's mouth (US gov't website):
Sep 01 17:52:04 <Lensman> The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an ad
Sep 01 17:53:54 <Lensman> As an aside, I got Larry Niven's permission before posting my Concordance to the Internet, because that *is* a derivitive (sp?) work.
Sep 01 17:54:49 <Lensman> However, for a critical review or parody there's no need to get the author's permission. You just have to decide what is an appropriate amount to quote (or "take", if it's a parody), and hope the copyright holder agrees.
Sep 01 17:55:03 <Hippy> Always safer to get permission, but your concordance is a good example of 'fair use for purposes of instruction'
Sep 01 17:56:07 <Lensman> Remember: "Fair use" is NOT a shield against being sued for copyright violation. It's a defense you can use in court. And frankly, with the high price of lawyers, if you're being sued you've already lost-- unless you think the publicity will gain you more in book sale royalties than it did in lawyer's fees.
Sep 01 17:57:22 <Hippy> 'When you win, you lose. When you lose, you're f-cked' as former Victorian judge Mr Justice Gobbo once said
Sep 01 18:00:01 <Lensman> Hippy: No, my Concordance is not an "educational work", it's a derivitive work. This was pretty clearly established in the case of the guy who published an unauthorized trivia book-- I think it was for the "Seinfeld" TV show. He claimed it was all "just facts" and therefore in public domain. The court didn't buy it-- and rightly so. The meaning of "derivitive work" clearly includes such things as an encyclopedia or concordance based on a fictional
Sep 01 18:01:08 <Hippy> What the?? Bloody hell!
Sep 01 18:01:46 <Lensman> Hippy: To qualify for the educational exemption, the material has to be presented in an educational setting, and be presented by a teacher or student. If I were Larry's lawyers, I'd certainly argue the Internet was not "an educational setting", and even if it were, I do not qualify as a "teacher or student" of any formal educational organization.
Sep 01 18:01:53 <Hippy> I might hunt that decision up. Because, due to some idiot who signed some free trade agreement, we now have to honour that sort of decision, too
Sep 01 18:03:21 <Hippy> But you're not actually reproducing any of Larry's words. . .oh, wait, you are. But what if you were merely providing an index to where stuff is mentioned?
Sep 01 18:03:50 <Lensman> Hippy: There we agree. I am *very* unhappy that the USA has become signatory to the Berne Conventions, which have extended copyright *far* beyond what our Constitution specifies.
Sep 01 18:05:01 <Lensman> I don't have to use any direct quotes from Larry to qualify as a "derivitive work". Using his characters and settings is enough-- and clearly a concordance of a fictional canon isn't of much use if if doesn't include those!
Sep 01 18:05:08 <Hippy> And I'm not happy that our once-proud Commonwealth has to extend protections to copyright owners based on what foreign courts decide.
Sep 01 18:06:32 <Hippy> I'm staggered by that trivia book decision. It seems like you could put a hold on anything provided you're the first to gather the info together
Sep 01 18:07:30 <Lensman> Originally, copyright was for 14 years (British law). Then 14 + 14. In the USA, originally IIRC 28 years. Then 28 + (renewable for) 28. I think that 56 years should be quite enough-- that's already far beyond that which patent protection gets, and is IMHO stretching the "limited times" which the Constitution specifies. The current copyright period is *way* too long.
Sep 01 18:07:50 <Hippy> Come to think of it, I might now preface everything I type here with a ©
Sep 01 18:07:54 <Hippy> :)
Sep 01 18:08:29 <Lensman> Actually, the way you organize information *is* copyright-able. The phone book is copyrightable. Not the info *in* the phone book, but the order and presentation of the information.
Sep 01 18:08:44 <FlyingDragon> GUys, I'm going to take a break from my computer, and take a nap.
Sep 01 18:08:47 <FlyingDragon> see ya
Sep 01 18:08:56 <Hippy> See you, Carol
Sep 01 18:08:57 * FlyingDragon is now known as InvisibleDragon
Sep 01 18:09:07 <Lensman> Bye Carol.
Sep 01 18:09:32 <Hippy> But look at that Seinfeld trivia guy. He gathered information but the court seemed to rule that the information wasn't his to gather
Sep 01 18:09:45 * InvisibleDragon yawns and flies away, not that you could see it since she already donned her invisibilty cloak
Sep 01 18:10:52 <Hippy> As to the length of copyright, I must disagree with you there. I think copyright should be infinite - eternal, rather. It should only go into the public domain once the owner's estate can't be inherited. Yes, yes, you can assume that Disney will ast forever, but they said the same about PanAm
Sep 01 18:11:09 <Lensman> Dunno how your country's laws read, but now here in the USA everything one rites is automatically copyrighted. And I think that's equally absurd-- if I send an e-mail, I expect it to be copied by anyone who wishes to do so (unless I mark it "private"), and is my shopping list copyrighted too? Absurd.
Sep 01 18:12:45 <Lensman> So, according to you we should be paying royalties for Grimm's fairy tales, the Greek Myths and the Bible? I respectfully disagree. In fact, I think it's quite appropriate that K.W. Jeter and Kevin Anderson could publish unauthorized sequels to H.G. Wells' works without permission.
Sep 01 18:12:56 <Hippy> We've always had automatic copyright as soon as you write it. No need to register it. I agree the email thing seems absurd, but it's better to have total protection than none at all. Of course, then you get into the argument of who owns an email you write at work
Sep 01 18:14:14 <Hippy> But the Bible, Greek myths, Grimm's etc all went into public domain when the authors couldn't be identified, their estates lapsed or they deliberately put them into the public domain
Sep 01 18:14:26 <Lensman> "Unauthorized... without permission" Okay that needed editing... first draft, okay? :)
Sep 01 18:15:00 <Hippy> But let's suppose the Estate of H G Wells was still. . .er. . .'valid' for want of a better word. Yes, you should be paying royalties to that estate
Sep 01 18:15:20 <Lensman> I think the authors of Grimm's Fairy Tales-- the Brothers Grimm-- is self-evident. Altho one could argue they aren't the real authors, just the transcribers...
Sep 01 18:15:54 <Hippy> As to writing sequels, I would've thought that you were okay there, since copyright didn't protect the concepts illustrated in a book or film or whatever. But apparently it now does.
Sep 01 18:16:01 <Lensman> And in the UK, /The War of the Worlds/ is still under copyright.
Sep 01 18:17:22 <Lensman> Hippy, I think you're under a misapprehension. Copyright has AFAIK *always* included the right to derivitive works, including sequels. You may have heard otherwise regarding fanfic, but that comes from those ignorant of the law.
Sep 01 18:17:36 <Hippy> Okay. Now, given that it is still under copyright, that shouldn't stop anyone writing a sequel, prequel, 'from the Martians' POV' stories. All it should stop is people printing up copies of the thing
Sep 01 18:18:46 <Hippy> This notion of derivative work requires more research on my part. Although I now recall the Estate of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle does aggressively protect the Sherlock Holmes stories
Sep 01 18:19:00 <Hippy> Sorry, I mean Sherlock Holmes name, characters etc
Sep 01 18:20:03 <Hippy> Now, the difficulty arises where you want to write a sequel to 'War of the Worlds' and the copyright owners say 'No, you can't do that'. They should have the right to demand payment, but not the right to stop you. In an ideal world, I mean
Sep 01 18:20:28 <Lensman> Well I agree that I *should* be able to write anything I want to, as long as it's just for my own pleasure and I don't publish it. However, the exact wording of the DMCA here in this country specifies that, since anything you put in "fixed form" (i.e., write down) is automatically copyrighted, you can't even write fanfic for your own pleasure! Now of course you could point out that this is unenforcable with anything less than /1984/ level of surveill
Sep 01 18:21:30 <Hippy> True enough, but unenforceable laws have always been passed
Sep 01 18:22:15 <Hippy> Have you read Jerry Pournelle's latest blog about www.scribd.com? He makes a lot of these points
Sep 01 18:22:33 <Lensman> Why should they be able to demand payment? Either they have the rights, or they don't. If they don't, you don't need permission. If they do, you can't do it without permission. I don't see any point to trying to split up the rights. That would make the situation of "Fair use" even more complex-- isn't it hard 'nuff to figure out as it is?
Sep 01 18:22:55 <Lensman> No, what's www.scribd.com?
Sep 01 18:23:58 <Hippy> It's a site that put up electronic versions of many authors books. The SFWA sent them a 'cease and desist' letter, asking them to take down the pirated works. They did this, but also took down works where the authors had given permission for them to be up there.
Sep 01 18:24:32 <Hippy> Said 'permitting' authors, of which Corey Doctorow was the most vocal, were upset that the SFWA rode roughshod over their right to display their work
Sep 01 18:25:29 <Hippy> Pournelle's POV is that the much greater number of authors who didn't give permission were being ripped off by SCribD.com and that Doctorow seems to be supprting the idea that they (scribd) have a right to put up this pirated material
Sep 01 18:25:41 <Lensman> And, to return to your suggestion, if I'm allowed to write a sequel to WOTW (which, seriously, I'd like to someday, I already have the idea), who decides how much I have to pay? If the copyright holder gets to decide, that means they can effectively withhold permission, simply by raising the price to a ridiculous amount. "Oh, you want to publish a sequel to my book? That will be 100 trillion US Dollars, please."
Sep 01 18:26:52 <Hippy> They could do that, yes. But at least you'd have the option of raising your hundred million. As it stands, you don't even have the chance
Sep 01 18:27:06 <Lensman> I don't see what the problem is. If the authors gave permission for specific works to be published, SFWA certainly doesn't have the right to say "no". Sounds like a lack of communication, that's all.
Sep 01 18:27:36 <Hippy> Of course, what it should ALWAYS come down to is 'has the copyright holder lost any money on this?' If they haven't they should have no case
Sep 01 18:27:58 <Lensman> But I need to read that. Do you have a link? Or is it the latest at Chaos Manor?
Sep 01 18:28:34 <Hippy> The current view seems to be that the SFWA volunteer who prepated the list of pirated works, mistakenly put a few in that weren't.
Sep 01 18:29:17 <Hippy> It's the latest at Chaos Manor
Sep 01 18:30:19 <Lensman> Why should the burden of proof be on the copyright holder to demonstrate the plagharist has affected his market? If the presumption of the court isn't in favor of the copyright holder, then that's not much of a copy "right".
Sep 01 18:31:27 <Hippy> Hmm. If the copyright holder is the plaintiff ('my copyright has been breached') then he should have to prove his losses so that damages can be assessed
Sep 01 18:31:46 <Hippy> Once again, this is an ideal world
Sep 01 18:31:55 <Lensman> How many authors could afford to take a plagharist to court? That's why copyright violation is so rampant on the Internet-- it doesn't pay an author to sue someone for posting his works, 'cuz the plagharist isn't getting any money for it, so there's no money to "go after".
Sep 01 18:31:58 <Hippy> Once again, this is an ideal world I'm talking about
Sep 01 18:32:21 <Lensman> -k-
Sep 01 18:33:33 <Hippy> A lot of people don't sue because they think there's no money to go after, but that is, after all, their prerogative. As to the difficulty and cost of suing, well, that's equally true of any civil action, anywhere, throughout the history of the universe.
Sep 01 18:33:36 <Lensman> Well actually I'm using the word "plagharist" wrong-- should be "pirate" on the Internet. Pirates generally don't claim a work is their own-- which is plagharism.
Sep 01 18:35:42 <Lensman> So, are you one of the lucky few who's read /Fleet of Worlds/?
Sep 01 18:35:57 <Hippy> Not yet, but it's on the pile. . .
Sep 01 18:36:21 <Hippy> Oh, wait. I'm referring to 'DEstiny's Forge'. FOW hasn't reached me from Amazon yet
Sep 01 18:36:33 <Hippy> But it will be on the pile once it gets here
Sep 01 18:36:51 <Lensman> No, you'd have had to have gotten an ARC to read it.
Sep 01 18:37:15 <Hippy> The ol' eyesight has not been great of late (I'm writing this in 18pt font) so my reading has been slow. . .
Sep 01 18:37:39 <Lensman> "Pile" indeed! When I got mine in the mail, I dropped everything and read it straight thru over several hours.
Sep 01 18:37:43 <Hippy> Alas, I'm not of the privileged few who can get ARCs
Sep 01 18:38:17 <Lensman> Ow! I thought *I* was getting bad in needing 13-14 point type!
Sep 01 18:38:20 <Hippy> It would probably take me days. I read 'Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows' over about five days
Sep 01 18:39:07 <SeanS> I had it read to me. very nice as a book on mp3
Sep 01 18:39:15 <Hippy> It comes and goes. Yesterday I was squinting at some ordinary book print, but on Friday I was quie happily reading away on the back deck
Sep 01 18:39:17 <Lensman> Have you tried one of those "whole page magnifier" things?
Sep 01 18:40:03 <Hippy> I have. They're handy, but of course you can't laze back on the chair with a beer when you're using them
Sep 01 18:40:41 <Lensman> I didn't know if they work or not. As you say, it would make it somewhat less convenient.
Sep 01 18:40:48 * Hippy has just noticed that 'pmahon' is still here, but keeping quiet
Sep 01 18:41:18 <Lensman> pmahon only responded to FlyingDragon. I guess he/she's just lurking.
Sep 01 18:41:41 <Hippy> They're very handy if you have to read a street directory or something you can lie flat on a table, but for leisurely reading something they're not too great
Sep 01 18:42:16 <Hippy> Ah, yes. Oh, who was EML?
Sep 01 18:42:30 <Hippy> Is EML? (Shouldn't use past tense.)
Sep 01 18:42:41 <Lensman> Edward M. Lerner, co-author of /Fleet of Worlds/ and /Juggler of Worlds/.
Sep 01 18:43:08 <Hippy> Ah! Thought so! I wish I'd got up earlier now
Sep 01 18:44:27 * UncleNasty (~UncleNasty@184.108.40.206) has joined #knownspace
Sep 01 18:44:39 <Lensman> Welcome Uncle.
Sep 01 18:44:41 <Hippy> Evening, UncleNasty
Sep 01 18:44:44 <UncleNasty> hey all
Sep 01 18:45:02 <Hippy> How is life in sunny Canada?
Sep 01 18:45:05 <SeanS> hi neil
Sep 01 18:45:11 <UncleNasty> sunny, which is nice
Sep 01 18:45:14 <UncleNasty> hey sean
Sep 01 18:45:18 <Lensman> Hey Sean.
Sep 01 18:45:30 <Hippy> Well, hello Sean! I thought you were out barbecuing or something
Sep 01 18:45:51 <SeanS> dove hunting, actually
Sep 01 18:46:03 <Lensman> Bag any?
Sep 01 18:46:24 <SeanS> i knocked down 6 and gave them to the owner of the field... not many birds flying
Sep 01 18:46:25 * Hippy assumes 'dove hunting' is a euphemism for something more mundane
Sep 01 18:46:46 <Hippy> . . .but discovers he's wrong
Sep 01 18:46:56 * UncleNasty thinks hippy has a dirty mind
Sep 01 18:47:00 <SeanS> no, literally hunting the 'mourning dove' the bird of peace
Sep 01 18:47:04 <Lensman> Hunting solo? Or with a dog?
Sep 01 18:47:22 <Lensman> "Hunting birds" could be Brit slang for skirt-chasing...
Sep 01 18:47:22 <SeanS> left the dog at home... about 8 people in the field
Sep 01 18:47:59 <UncleNasty> Lensman: Is that like canadians going out to spear some beaver??
Sep 01 18:48:03 <Hippy> It would indeed, Lens. It would've been Australian slang, for that matter, about forty years ago
Sep 01 18:48:37 <Lensman> "Hunting beaver" *is* an American expression. Dunno if the Canadians use it, too.
Sep 01 18:48:40 <Hippy> Ah, this has lowered the tone. I now feel comfortable and familiar
Sep 01 18:49:12 <UncleNasty> it's nice & warm in the gutter and the company doesn't put on being posh
Sep 01 18:49:22 <Lensman> I thought Mourning Doves were gray?
Sep 01 18:49:28 <SeanS> they are
Sep 01 18:49:39 <SeanS> white doves are albino mourning dove
Sep 01 18:49:47 <Hippy> So, you hunt them because they eat the crops or something?
Sep 01 18:49:50 <Lensman> Ah, thanks.
Sep 01 18:49:55 <SeanS> no, because they taste good
Sep 01 18:50:08 <Lensman> I don't think Hippy understands the purpose of hunting.
Sep 01 18:50:21 <UncleNasty> "Squirrel Melts"
Sep 01 18:50:23 <SeanS> my purpose for hunting is dinner... i do not trophy hunt
Sep 01 18:50:23 <UncleNasty> ROFLMAO
Sep 01 18:50:25 * Hippy puts that down on a list of things to eat if he should get over there
Sep 01 18:50:53 <UncleNasty> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RlK0Xd4c2c
Sep 01 18:51:01 * UncleNasty is laughing _very_ hard
Sep 01 18:51:54 <Lensman> Well, when we'd load up the pickup and go jackrabbit hunting in Western Kansas, we'd *claim* it was 'cuz the rabbits eat the crops, but really it was that hunting can be fun, and rabbit *is* good eatin' if it's cooked properly.
Sep 01 18:52:43 <SeanS> its a bit rich for some people but i never turn down wild game
Sep 01 18:53:26 <Hippy> Well, I was confused when you gave the doves away, but now I am working out what you mean. And this squirrel melt thing is disturbing
Sep 01 18:54:00 <UncleNasty> Hippy: What's not to like??? They're great for a tailgate party!
Sep 01 18:54:01 <Hippy> And that woman is losing her regional accent
Sep 01 18:54:14 <SeanS> 6 dove are a little few for a good 2 person dinner
Sep 01 18:54:25 <Hippy> Yes! Can't wait to try a tailgate party!
Sep 01 18:54:36 <Lensman> Grandma would chicken-fry it. Mmmm! Personally, I prefer the taste of wild game. I had a wild cornish hen once that was excellent! (Even if I did bite into a shotgun pellet or two.) I tried some store-bought cornish hens once, but it wasn't the same. Might as well have been midget chickens. :(
Sep 01 18:55:36 <Hippy> Well, I did have pigeon once. But I don't think I'll try it again
Sep 01 18:55:36 <Lensman> Of course, it depends on what the game has been eating. I hear it can be pretty nasty if they've been eating bitter weeds or the like.
Sep 01 18:56:25 <Hippy> Friends of mine once ate a possum. They said it tasted like bitter toothpaste
Sep 01 18:56:59 <SeanS> i have never had possum... it is a scavenger so that is quite possible
Sep 01 18:57:02 <Lensman> I would be leery of possum. They eat trash, don't they? Just a big rat, if you ask me.
Sep 01 18:57:17 <UncleNasty> people eat guinea pigs
Sep 01 18:57:43 <UncleNasty> not that I particularly fancy trying rodent
Sep 01 18:57:49 <Lensman> Well some people eat a lot of things-- doesn't mean *I* want to eat roasted grubs.
Sep 01 18:57:59 <UncleNasty> but most things are edible to some degree
Sep 01 18:59:12 <Lensman> When Colonial-era British seamen ate their hard, weevil-infested biscuits, they'd deliberately leave the weevils in-- more protein that way. But I'll pass, thanks.
Sep 01 18:59:54 <Hippy> Possums eat garbage here, too. Of course they're a different species and in the bush they mostly eat seeds and gum leaves, so they would have a strong eucalyptus bite. But I think I'll rule them off my personal menu
Sep 01 19:00:30 <Hippy> Apparently they're as hot as mustard
Sep 01 19:00:36 <Hippy> Weevils, that is
Sep 01 19:01:08 * InvisibleDragon is now known as FlyingDragon
Sep 01 19:01:13 <Lensman> WB Carol!
Sep 01 19:01:21 <Hippy> Hello again, Carol
Sep 01 19:01:30 <UncleNasty> hiya carol
Sep 01 19:02:04 <Lensman> Hey, up to 4 active chat members, now! Maybe five if we could get pmahon to un-lurk.
Sep 01 19:02:11 <Hippy> It's just gone 9:00AM, so I shall be AFK for a bit while I ready myself for the horror of having the in-laws over for Father's Day. . .
Sep 01 19:02:55 * FlyingDragon slips off the invisibility cloak and swoops over the assembled appetisers
Sep 01 19:03:02 <Hippy> So we need pmahon to spark up to keep four members active. But I shall return, as a famous general once said
Sep 01 19:03:04 <Lensman> Oops, that was 5 including me, but looks like we're down to 4 again.
Sep 01 19:03:16 <FlyingDragon> Hippy, father's day?
Sep 01 19:03:36 <Hippy> Yep. First Sunday in September down here
Sep 01 19:03:43 * FlyingDragon chases Hippy around, unwilling to let a tasty tidbit escape
Sep 01 19:03:52 <Hippy> And our Labour Day is also antipodal
Sep 01 19:04:11 <FlyingDragon> Meaning it is in fall?
Sep 01 19:04:25 * Hippy runs around, and will be back as a clean and dressed tidbit in a while
Sep 01 19:04:53 <SeanS> as long as that is not field dressed ;)
Sep 01 19:04:54 <Hippy> Labour Day is, yes. Autumn, not fall, though. KMart has not yet convinced us to call it 'fall'
Sep 01 19:05:03 <UncleNasty> i shall vanish shortly as well - need to spend some quality time with the pool before it's igloo weather again
Sep 01 19:05:20 <Hippy> It might be, Sean. I shall see how the spirit moves me :)
Sep 01 19:05:23 <FlyingDragon> fall has fewer letters.
Sep 01 19:05:33 <FlyingDragon> But yes, I like autumn too.
Sep 01 19:05:41 <UncleNasty> Autumnal is a fun word
Sep 01 19:05:54 <UncleNasty> much like flange
Sep 01 19:05:58 <UncleNasty> it's just fun to say
Sep 01 19:06:02 <Lensman> Autumn is more precise. Precise is good.
Sep 01 19:06:10 * Hippy resists the urge to be distracted and wrenches himself from the keyboard
Sep 01 19:06:14 <UncleNasty> though flange sounds like it should be a dirty word
Sep 01 19:06:25 <FlyingDragon> I once had a goat I named Autumn Icicle. He died.
Sep 01 19:06:36 <FlyingDragon> Bye Hippy
Sep 01 19:06:42 <UncleNasty> girth is also a wanna-be dirty word
Sep 01 19:06:46 <UncleNasty> adios hippy
Sep 01 19:07:00 <FlyingDragon> that FLANGE has quite a GIRTH!
Sep 01 19:07:07 <UncleNasty> SEE!!!
Sep 01 19:07:21 <UncleNasty> Check out the girth of that flange!
Sep 01 19:07:23 <Lensman> What, anything with three consonants together wants to be a dirty word? Width, I say!
Sep 01 19:07:38 <UncleNasty> nah - width is too clinical
Sep 01 19:07:44 <FlyingDragon> flange hasn't three consonants together.
Sep 01 19:07:49 <Lensman> Splitter!
Sep 01 19:08:11 <FlyingDragon> That flange could use with a splitter. Naw.
Sep 01 19:08:18 * UncleNasty is now known as PeoplesFrontOFJudea
Sep 01 19:08:21 <Lensman> Carol: Well, if you're gonna get technical.
Sep 01 19:08:32 <Lensman> ROTFL!
Sep 01 19:08:33 <FlyingDragon> anythign with spl is a funny word.
Sep 01 19:08:43 <Lensman> Spluge!
Sep 01 19:08:55 <FlyingDragon> Technical, must be dirty is it has three consonants togehter.
Sep 01 19:09:08 <FlyingDragon> Get me a splitter for the spluge!
Sep 01 19:09:16 <PeoplesFrontOFJudea> his flange failed the test due to technical girth?
Sep 01 19:09:22 * Tanada (~Tanada@220.127.116.11) has joined #knownspace
Sep 01 19:09:22 <PeoplesFrontOFJudea> :O
Sep 01 19:09:30 * PeoplesFrontOFJudea is now known as UncleNasty
Sep 01 19:09:38 <Lensman> Welcome to the looney bin, Tanada.
Sep 01 19:09:40 <Tanada> Greetings
Sep 01 19:09:42 <FlyingDragon> Hello Tanada
Sep 01 19:09:50 <UncleNasty> hola Tanada
Sep 01 19:09:53 <Tanada> Hi Carol, Hi Lens
Sep 01 19:09:56 <FlyingDragon> Peoples. just couldn't not be nasty, eh?
Sep 01 19:09:59 <Tanada> Hi UN
Sep 01 19:09:59 <SeanS> hi tanada
Sep 01 19:10:10 <Tanada> Hi Sean
Sep 01 19:10:24 * SeanS gives channel operator status to FlyingDragon
Sep 01 19:10:29 <FlyingDragon> Ty
Sep 01 19:10:33 * Lensman is now known as JudaenPeoplesFront
Sep 01 19:10:37 <FlyingDragon> Ah! The POWER!!!!!!
Sep 01 19:10:41 <UncleNasty> lol
Sep 01 19:10:53 <UncleNasty> I have a new toy, thanks to work
Sep 01 19:10:59 <SeanS> what did ya get
Sep 01 19:11:01 <UncleNasty> I have an Apple Airport Extreme
Sep 01 19:11:02 <JudaenPeoplesFront> Toy?
Sep 01 19:11:08 <JudaenPeoplesFront> Which is?
Sep 01 19:11:21 <UncleNasty> It's a wireless access-point/router
Sep 01 19:11:32 <UncleNasty> it's geek-chique
Sep 01 19:11:45 <SeanS> cool
Sep 01 19:12:04 <UncleNasty> it allows you to set up an extensible wireless network, which means you can add repeaters and chat online next to the pool
Sep 01 19:12:10 <JudaenPeoplesFront> I want an iPhone. This is from someone who's never owned a cellphone. Talk about geek-chic!
Sep 01 19:12:16 <UncleNasty> and some businessy stuff, too
Sep 01 19:12:20 <UncleNasty> lol
Sep 01 19:12:26 <UncleNasty> i want the chinese rip-off
Sep 01 19:12:34 <UncleNasty> or an unlocked one
Sep 01 19:12:41 <JudaenPeoplesFront> ?
Sep 01 19:12:45 <SeanS> everything i do is within range of of my wireless b router
Sep 01 19:12:46 <FlyingDragon> iphones are how much better than a cell phone?
Sep 01 19:12:57 <UncleNasty> apple are talking to rogers in canada to bring them in... the problem is rogers are insisting the 802.11 is turned off
Sep 01 19:13:01 <SeanS> they are just a combo of a few toys
Sep 01 19:13:08 <JudaenPeoplesFront> Oh, a gogleplex.
Sep 01 19:13:24 <UncleNasty> they're a fairly fully featured phone, but they are nicely done
Sep 01 19:13:45 <FlyingDragon> I use every feature available on my cell phone.
Sep 01 19:13:47 <UncleNasty> i do find that apple hardware has a certain polished finish... they're very nicely put together and work very well
Sep 01 19:14:09 <SeanS> i dont use cell phones any more... if my landline, email, and skype are not enough... hell with it
Sep 01 19:14:14 <UncleNasty> it's like the difference between a run-of-the-mill mp3 player and an ipod
Sep 01 19:14:24 <Tanada> UN then 6 months later they come out with the new and improved version ;)
Sep 01 19:14:27 <UncleNasty> ipod are done right
Sep 01 19:14:37 <UncleNasty> Tanada: ahh the joys of a market economy
Sep 01 19:14:54 <UncleNasty> case in point: the bluetooth mighty mouse
Sep 01 19:15:03 <UncleNasty> it's an apple mouse
Sep 01 19:15:05 <JudaenPeoplesFront> Dunno how well they work, on the Today show they were having problems with their demo. But it's like a pocket version of the Trek Next Gen "padd"! No buttons-- just a touch screen to dial a phone number! Ultra-kewl.
Sep 01 19:15:09 <FlyingDragon> Peter boght a MP3 player the other day, for the plug. He said it help abotu two songs. Was torchering the son into wakefullness when the battery died.
Sep 01 19:16:01 <UncleNasty> i have an ipod video - 30gb of music & movies - fantastic toy
Sep 01 19:16:14 <UncleNasty> though watching the movies in the car is a bit dangerous O:-)
Sep 01 19:16:24 <JudaenPeoplesFront> I read the other day that Bluetooths aren't being used much. One of my friends uses his regularly, but I haven't seen many others using one.
Sep 01 19:16:41 * JudaenPeoplesFront is now known as Lensman
Sep 01 19:16:50 <FlyingDragon> wireless cell phone ear plug? I use the old kind with wires.
Sep 01 19:17:06 <UncleNasty> JudaenPeoplesFront: the bluetooth mouse is an awesome invention, but every one I have tried before the mighty mouse had flaws... the only flaw with the mighty mouse is that I didn't get one sooner
Sep 01 19:17:22 <UncleNasty> apple use bluetooth
Sep 01 19:17:26 <Lensman> I don't even understand the Bluetooth thing. How do you dial out? Is it voice-activated?
Sep 01 19:17:46 <FlyingDragon> You use the phone to dial out. THe blutooth is an accesory.
Sep 01 19:17:48 <UncleNasty> my cell phone and my laptop synch contact information, I can use my cellphone to acces the web on my laptop if I need to
Sep 01 19:18:15 <Lensman> -k-
Sep 01 19:18:20 <UncleNasty> and bluetooth headsets rock for anyone who drives a lot
Sep 01 19:18:40 <UncleNasty> not to mention I can pair it with the laptop for skype, etc
Sep 01 19:18:50 <FlyingDragon> I see wireless headphones on people.
Sep 01 19:18:55 <Tanada> Anyone else following the current GW catastrophe or is it just me?
Sep 01 19:19:15 <FlyingDragon> They need to make them flesh toned or at least hair toned.
Sep 01 19:19:15 <UncleNasty> Tanada: ??
Sep 01 19:19:47 <Lensman> But analysts say the problem with using a cellphone in the car is it splits your attention-- so a hands-free phone is little if any improvement. It's said that talking on the phone slows your driving reaction more than being drunk. (Not sure about that-- do they mean barly legally drunk or what?)
Sep 01 19:20:11 <Tanada> In case nobody told you the Arctic Icecap is in collapse
Sep 01 19:20:20 <Lensman> Tanada: What's GW, and what catastrophe?
Sep 01 19:20:27 <UncleNasty> nice - the ice shelf is finally dropping off?
Sep 01 19:20:37 <SeanS> i will tell the sun to cool off and that will take care of it
Sep 01 19:20:39 <FlyingDragon> I"m SURE they mean barely legally drunk.
Sep 01 19:20:40 <Tanada> lowest level ever recorded more than 1.2 Mkm^2 less surface area than the 20 year trend
Sep 01 19:20:59 <Lensman> Are we talking arctic or antarctic?
Sep 01 19:21:05 <Tanada> ARCTIC
Sep 01 19:21:11 <FlyingDragon> I've seen those driving tests. It isn't driving around town kind of driving, but MAD CRASH course kind of driving.
Sep 01 19:21:25 <SeanS> yep... going to open up the northern passage for ship traffic.
Sep 01 19:21:26 <Lensman> I heard sometime back that the north polar ice was mostly gone.
Sep 01 19:21:54 <FlyingDragon> Beleive me, having my kids in the car is far more distracting than my cell phone. Any passenger is far more distracting than a cell phone. IN fact, eating and drinking ( soft drinks at least) is still legal.
Sep 01 19:21:57 <Lensman> Yah, the wags have been talking about the USA claiming the northern passage...
Sep 01 19:22:23 <Tanada> Odd are no winter this year
Sep 01 19:22:37 <Tanada> at least not as far south as I am at 42 degrees
Sep 01 19:22:37 <SeanS> cool... i hate cold weather
Sep 01 19:23:06 <UncleNasty> where u at, Tanada ?
Sep 01 19:23:28 <Lensman> They say global warming is six times as great (the temperature difference) at the poles as it is at the equator. I don't know why.
Sep 01 19:23:39 <Tanada> Algore was right on the button on one thing, the exposed sea surface is 5 degrees C above normal and will resist freezing into December
Sep 01 19:23:56 <Tanada> Coast of Lake Eire Michigan
Sep 01 19:24:07 <UncleNasty> ahh
Sep 01 19:24:11 <SeanS> hmm, al gore. the ultimate hypocrit
Sep 01 19:24:34 <Lensman> Cutting down on the surface area of ice will/has had a snowball effect, with not as much white area reflecting sunlight.
Sep 01 19:24:36 <Tanada> Hypocrit he is, but he also got one right, unfortunately
Sep 01 19:24:50 <Tanada> Exactly Lens
Sep 01 19:25:20 <Tanada> With less than 3 <km^2 frozen right now compared to 7 Mkm^2 in 1979
Sep 01 19:25:27 <UncleNasty> Tanada: I'm a couple hundred miles north of you
Sep 01 19:25:32 <Lensman> There's a lot of important info in "An Inconvenient Truth". Too bad it resorts to distortions and exaggerations-- the reality is sobering enough.
Sep 01 19:25:51 <Tanada> Frankenmuth?
Sep 01 19:26:02 <Tanada> Or closer to Grayling?
Sep 01 19:26:09 <UncleNasty> Lensman: People don't like facts... they need the story & stage show
Sep 01 19:26:27 <UncleNasty> Tanada: Near Barrie in ontario
Sep 01 19:26:36 <UncleNasty> more north-east
Sep 01 19:26:38 <Lensman> UN: I guess I'm not "people". I like real facts.
Sep 01 19:26:41 <Tanada> http://nsidc.org/news/press/2007_seaiceminimum/20070810_index.html
Sep 01 19:26:48 <Tanada> Ah, Ontario
Sep 01 19:27:04 <Tanada> Drummond Island area?
Sep 01 19:27:26 <Lensman> To change the subject: Someone said Larry was gonna have a podcast from Nippon 2007, but I didn't see anything mentioning him at the website.
Sep 01 19:27:37 <UncleNasty> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.07883,-80.187664&spn=8.618984,13.051758&z=6&om=1
Sep 01 19:27:39 <Tanada> Try that link Lens it is the National Snow and Ice Data Center
Sep 01 19:27:54 <FlyingDragon> "Another podcast will join Tor publisher Tom Doherty and renowned author Larry Niven while they discuss a variety of topics over lunch in Tokyo."
Sep 01 19:28:44 <UncleNasty> FlyingDragon: cool - where?
Sep 01 19:28:52 <Lensman> Yah where?
Sep 01 19:29:17 <FlyingDragon> http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/005565.html
Sep 01 19:29:37 <FlyingDragon> The site taht was posted here.
Sep 01 19:29:40 <FlyingDragon> Earlier.
Sep 01 19:30:18 <UncleNasty> cool
Sep 01 19:30:26 <UncleNasty> back in a bit, all - time to hit the pool!
Sep 01 19:30:38 <SeanS> thought you were already doing that
Sep 01 19:30:53 <Lensman> Oh, I managed to skim right past that twice. I don't see anything mentioning Larry on what it links to, tho.
Sep 01 19:31:04 <FlyingDragon> DIdn't go to any links.
Sep 01 19:32:37 <Lensman> Well, there's a 14 hour difference. "Over lunch" would be, I think, 2 AM my time.
Sep 01 19:32:55 <Lensman> Maybe they'll put it up later.
Sep 01 19:33:21 <Tanada> 7:30 PM EDT here
Sep 01 19:33:40 <FlyingDragon> WOnder how many days people took to get used to the time differance.
Sep 01 19:33:51 <Lensman> 6:30 PM CDT here.
Sep 01 19:34:59 <Lensman> 14 hours-- that's pretty bad jet lag! I've read the best way to deal with several hours difference is to just stay up and then go to bed when the clock says it's your normal bedtime.
Sep 01 19:35:24 <Lensman> Not sure how well that works in practice, tho.
Sep 01 19:35:50 <FlyingDragon> Gonna take the kids to see Fantastic FOur at the DOllar movie.
Sep 01 19:35:54 <FlyingDragon> See ya
Sep 01 19:36:07 <SeanS> it works pretty well if you are going to an earlier time
Sep 01 19:36:11 * FlyingDragon slips invisibility cloak back on
Sep 01 19:36:13 <SeanS> ie travelling west
Sep 01 19:36:16 <Lensman> Bye Carol! I enjoyed that film very much-- hope you do too!
Sep 01 19:36:21 <SeanS> going the other way kinda sux
Sep 01 19:36:23 * FlyingDragon is now known as InvisibleDragon
Sep 01 19:36:37 <InvisibleDragon> TY, Lensman.
Sep 01 19:36:47 <InvisibleDragon> FIrst was alright. And the price is right.
Sep 01 19:36:53 <InvisibleDragon> bye
Sep 01 19:37:06 <Lensman> Bye^2
Sep 01 19:39:42 * Hippy returned
Sep 01 19:39:57 <SeanS> wb
Sep 01 19:41:26 <Hippy> Thanks. I can now face the day, with a cup of tea and an ironed shirt one can accomplish anything!
Sep 01 19:42:58 <SeanS> i tend to drink coffee instead but i understand
Sep 01 19:43:35 <Hippy> I used to drink a lot of coffee, but the quality has really dropped in recent times, so I'm back on the more traditional tea
Sep 01 19:44:18 <SeanS> a friend of mine gave me a bag of 'wake the fuck up' extra strong coffee but i havent tried it yet
Sep 01 19:44:55 <SeanS> says it right on the bag... i would be remiss not to quote it exactly
Sep 01 19:45:02 <Hippy> Sounds like the stuff they serve at Starbucks. You could wake a mummy up with that stuff
Sep 01 19:46:20 <Lensman> Hey I've just been told I should mention "The Incompleat Known Space Concordance" here, and give the link:
Sep 01 19:46:42 <Hippy> Why, of course you should!
Sep 01 19:46:45 <Lensman> http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/
Sep 01 19:46:57 <Lensman> ...to improve my Google rating. :)
Sep 01 19:47:06 <Hippy> It's well worth the look, too
Sep 01 19:47:32 <Lensman> Thanks, Hippy. A lot of work, and I'm very pleased I finally got to announce completion of the first phase!
Sep 01 19:48:28 <Lensman> Altho looking at what I've indexed compared to the whole canon-- only 10 out of 40 short stories, and none out of 7 (soon to be 8) novels-- I've got a *long* way to go!
Sep 01 19:50:25 <UncleNasty> i back!
Sep 01 19:50:33 <UncleNasty> pool was bloody chilly
Sep 01 19:50:43 <Hippy> How was the pool? Ah. ..
Sep 01 19:50:57 <Lensman> Where are you, UncleN?
Sep 01 19:51:07 <UncleNasty> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.07883,-80.187664&spn=8.618984,13.051758&z=6&om=1
Sep 01 19:51:21 <Lensman> Geek humor...
Sep 01 19:51:50 * Tanada has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)
Sep 01 19:52:15 <Lensman> COME BAAACK!! (To quote "The Seventh Guest")
Sep 01 19:52:31 <UncleNasty> Lensman: you got google earth?
Sep 01 19:52:58 <Lensman> Nope, GoogleEarth does NOT work with Win98.
Sep 01 19:53:03 <UncleNasty> hrm
Sep 01 19:53:08 <UncleNasty> ok - gimme a min
Sep 01 19:53:38 <UncleNasty> check out: http://images.google.com/images?q=melancthon+wind+farm&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
Sep 01 19:53:40 <Hippy> It does work with Vista, though, and I'm looking at some nice farmland. Good pig country
Sep 01 19:53:50 <UncleNasty> heh
Sep 01 19:53:54 <UncleNasty> cattle mainly
Sep 01 19:53:59 <UncleNasty> and some reindeer
Sep 01 19:54:08 <UncleNasty> sheep & pigs do not like the winter here
Sep 01 19:54:14 <Lensman> Northern Canada?
Sep 01 19:54:27 <UncleNasty> technically southern ontario
Sep 01 19:54:35 <UncleNasty> but northern enough
Sep 01 19:55:07 <Lensman> I guess you really mean reindeer, then-- i.e. domesticated, not wild caribou.
Sep 01 19:55:16 <UncleNasty> yup
Sep 01 19:55:33 <Lensman> Or do Caribou get that far south? I dunno.
Sep 01 19:55:35 <Hippy> Hmm. Let me see if I can find my place on this
Sep 01 19:56:29 <Hippy> http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.07883,-80.187664&spn=8.618984,13.051758&z=6&om=1
Sep 01 19:56:38 <Hippy> Yes, that looks right. . ..
Sep 01 19:57:38 <UncleNasty> that looks very much like shelburne, ontario O:-)
Sep 01 19:58:22 <Hippy> It does? Then I shall be right at home there, if I get there.
Sep 01 19:58:42 <UncleNasty> you appear to have copied my link back
Sep 01 19:59:00 <UncleNasty> when you get your location, hit "link to this page" and copy the URL it goves you
Sep 01 19:59:05 <UncleNasty> s/goves/gives
Sep 01 19:59:22 <Hippy> Oh. . .hmm. Right, stand by
Sep 01 20:00:01 <Hippy> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=8+ash+grove+oak+park+australia&sll=41.943787,-80.051107&sspn=0.045455,0.079823&ie=UTF8&ll=-37.716091,144.913407&spn=0.003021,0.004989&t=k&z=18&iwloc=addr&om=1
Sep 01 20:00:19 <Hippy> That incredibly lengthy URL should be it :)
Sep 01 20:00:37 <Hippy> Thanks for that advice, Uncle
Sep 01 20:00:43 <UncleNasty> np
Sep 01 20:01:18 <UncleNasty> heh - wodonga
Sep 01 20:01:46 <Hippy> Saskatoon
Sep 01 20:02:14 <UncleNasty> heh - the funniest thing about being in canada is listening to the pronuciation of some of the place names
Sep 01 20:02:40 <UncleNasty> there's a place in the UK called keswick... pronounced 'kezzik'
Sep 01 20:02:41 <Hippy> Yes. I like 'Toronno'
Sep 01 20:03:05 <UncleNasty> there's a place near here called keswick... pronounced 'kess-wick'
Sep 01 20:03:24 <UncleNasty> yeah - butter=budder
Sep 01 20:03:25 <Lensman> "Yes, it's *spelt* 'Raymond Luxury-Yacht', but it's *pronounced* 'throat-wobbler mangrove'."
Sep 01 20:03:29 <Hippy> How would you go with 'Woolloomooloo'?
Sep 01 20:03:47 <Hippy> LOL! Lens
Sep 01 20:03:52 <UncleNasty> no worse than betws-y-coed
Sep 01 20:03:59 <UncleNasty> lol@lens
Sep 01 20:04:05 <Lensman> One of my fave Monty Python lines.
Sep 01 20:04:26 <UncleNasty> heh - used to live here: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=stanley,+hong+kong&sll=-37.716091,144.913407&sspn=4.744446,6.525879&ie=UTF8&z=14&iwloc=addr&om=1
Sep 01 20:04:48 <Hippy> Yes, Welsh is the one for place names. 'Never ask for directions in Wales, Baldrick. You'll be cleaning spit out of your hair for a fortnight'
Sep 01 20:05:01 <UncleNasty> lol@blackadder
Sep 01 20:05:12 <UncleNasty> llandudno
Sep 01 20:05:25 <UncleNasty> it's worse than klingon
Sep 01 20:05:25 <Lensman> Seriously, I've never quite figured out how to pronounce "Worchestishire"-- heck, I can't even spell it!
Sep 01 20:05:38 <Hippy> You lucky. . .Hong Kong, eh?
Sep 01 20:05:42 <UncleNasty> wooster-sher
Sep 01 20:05:56 <Lensman> LOL! Yes, I'm a Blackadder fan too.
Sep 01 20:05:58 <Hippy> Woostershuh
Sep 01 20:06:02 <UncleNasty> hong kong was fun - late 70s early 80s
Sep 01 20:06:13 <Hippy> Where the 'oo' rhymes with 'look'
Sep 01 20:06:30 <UncleNasty> bicester is one of the ones that gets most people
Sep 01 20:06:50 <Hippy> I won't even attempt to guess at that one
Sep 01 20:06:55 <UncleNasty> spelt bicester, pronounced bister ( with an 'i' as in 'is')
Sep 01 20:07:17 <UncleNasty> near birmingham in england
Sep 01 20:07:34 <UncleNasty> where cadbury chocolate comes from
Sep 01 20:09:51 <Hippy> Ah. Cadbury's here is made in the very easily pronounced Claremont, in Tasmania
Sep 01 20:10:00 * Hippy afk briefly to answer email
Sep 01 20:11:56 <UncleNasty> damn - I'm going all misty eyed over the vacations we used to have from hong kong
Sep 01 20:12:30 <Lensman> And of course, you all know how to pronounce "ghoti", right?
Sep 01 20:12:53 <UncleNasty> i'm guessing 'goaty'
Sep 01 20:13:09 <Hippy> I'm guessing 'fish'
Sep 01 20:13:27 <Hippy> An oldie, but a goodie. English spelling at its finest :)
Sep 01 20:13:33 <Lensman> Nope. "gh" as in "rough"; "o" as in "women"; "ti" as in "nation"; it's pronounced "fish".
Sep 01 20:13:35 <UncleNasty> throatwarbler-mangrove?
Sep 01 20:13:36 <Lensman> :)
Sep 01 20:13:59 <Lensman> Ah, congrats Hippy!
Sep 01 20:14:03 <UncleNasty> heh
Sep 01 20:15:44 <UncleNasty> guys I must depart
Sep 01 20:15:52 <Lensman> Bye UN
Sep 01 20:16:14 * UncleNasty has quit (Quit: Earth... What a shithole)
Sep 01 20:16:27 <Hippy> Damn, missed him
Sep 01 20:17:42 <Hippy> I think I'll give it another fifteen minutes and then head off, too. Got a bit of shopping to do today
Sep 01 20:18:14 <Lensman> Good chatting with you, Hippy.
Sep 01 20:20:02 <Hippy> These are always good value, Lens. I'll try to get back in the habit of coming on each Saturday. The spirit is willing but the flesh is often hungover on a Sunday morning. . .
Sep 01 20:20:16 <Hippy> 'Bye, Sean. Enjoy the doves
Sep 01 20:20:29 <SeanS> bye
Sep 01 20:20:37 <Lensman> I guess I can add "UncleNasty/ Canadian" to my Larry Niven list scorecard... don't have a real name to go with it, tho.
Sep 01 20:20:38 <Hippy> Goodnight, pmahon, wherever you are :)
Sep 01 20:21:11 <Hippy> Hmm. I think I do, but it will be in the logs somewhere
Sep 01 20:21:28 <Hippy> Are you keeping a scorecard of list subscribers who join the channel?
Sep 01 20:21:29 <Lensman> Each Saturday? Are people here every Saturday, then?
Sep 01 20:21:44 * growler (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #knownspace
Sep 01 20:22:03 <Lensman> I try to keep a scorecard, as in "You can't tell the players without a..." for every chat I regularly participate in. Well, it's just the two chatrooms.
Sep 01 20:22:04 <Hippy> I just assumed they were. Evening, growler
Sep 01 20:22:19 <growler> morning you mean
Sep 01 20:22:22 <Lensman> Welcome, Growler!
Sep 01 20:22:39 <Hippy> Another morning person! Escellent!
Sep 01 20:22:59 <growler> er, not exactly. I just got out of bed - and it's almost noon.
Sep 01 20:23:13 <Hippy> Euan?
Sep 01 20:23:23 <growler> my thrice cursed neighbours were irritatingly rowdy again last night
Sep 01 20:23:26 <growler> yes
Sep 01 20:23:39 <Hippy> Ah, that explains it!
Sep 01 20:23:45 <Lensman> See, I can look at my scorecard which says "Hippy (Aussie) and not have to ask stupid questions like "Are you in Oz, or are you a Kiwi, or what?"
Sep 01 20:24:05 <Hippy> That would be handy, Lens.
Sep 01 20:24:29 <Lensman> ...whereas it says growler *is* a Kiwi.
Sep 01 20:24:32 <Hippy> You can then work out that growler is a Kiwi because it's later on Sunday for him than me
Sep 01 20:24:46 <Lensman> No, my geography isn't that good.
Sep 01 20:24:49 <Hippy> Ah, there you go
Sep 01 20:25:33 <growler> Ideally we ought have that inbformation displayed beside people. Hmmmmm, I wonder if the source if the Java applet is available to edit. Could customise it - and give it a list to match nicknames against
Sep 01 20:26:12 <growler> Or it could decue form IP numbers where people are. That's easy enough today.
Sep 01 20:26:14 <Hippy> But what if you were coming in via mIRC?
Sep 01 20:26:23 <Lensman> I swear, I never have mastered the "if it's west, it's earlier in the day" thing. I know, for instance, that California is 2 hours off our USA Central Time here, but which way? Forward or back? I always have to think about it. And the think with Louis Wu going around the world backwards? I never, in a million years, would have spotted that.
Sep 01 20:26:31 <growler> er, 'deduce' 'from' IP numbers I meant
Sep 01 20:27:38 <growler> Yeah, I don't bother to analyze a story like that - unless it becomes a plot point and something smells
Sep 01 20:27:41 <Lensman> Or "induce", as Arthur Conan Doyle got it backwards. <Lensman going for most-irritating-geek status here> :)
Sep 01 20:29:01 <growler> I read soething recently by someone damning Doyle for queering the pitch for detectives and mystery writers. Personally I suspect Holmes fame contributes to public awareness of due process and actual proof in court.
Sep 01 20:29:10 <Lensman> Well obviously *someone* spotted that blunder in /Ringworld/ or we all wouldn't have heard about it!
Sep 01 20:29:58 <growler> Who's heard the story about how Gregory House is Sherlock Holmes in, very thin, disguise?
Sep 01 20:30:29 <Hippy> That seems pretty obvious. Someone told me the other day that 'Shark' is 'House' with lawyers
Sep 01 20:30:45 <Lensman> What, Doyle "queered the pitch" by saying "deduce" when he meant "induce"? Nonsense, he just introduced another meaning for the word. Wouldn't be the first (or last) time a word reversed meanings-- look at "moot"!
Sep 01 20:31:35 <growler> I thin kthe compaint was a more general one about the portrayal of detective work and possibilities of logic.
Sep 01 20:31:57 <Lensman> I hadn't thought about House = Holmes. So who's Watson? Anyway, Holmes was certainly stuck up, but not nearly as irritating as House!
Sep 01 20:32:04 <Hippy> 'Moot' changed its meaning?
Sep 01 20:32:05 <growler> Sort of like how courts today get pissed off by jurors expecting the sort of stupidily detailed and clever forensics as shown on CSI
Sep 01 20:33:03 <Lensman> Sure. Remember the "Entmoot" in /Lord of the Rings/? That's from the old meaning of "moot"-- a gathering for purposes of discussion. And now "it's a moot point" means "It's not worth discussing!"
Sep 01 20:33:24 <Hippy> Yes. Then again, shows like that are compelling the police to actually do their job more thoroughly. To gather more proof if they want a conviction
Sep 01 20:33:57 <Hippy> Good point, Lens. Why did I never see that befoire?
Sep 01 20:34:30 <Lensman> Shockingly, real-life forensic teams do *not* have a test for absolutely everything which can return results before the police can finish interrogating suspects.
Sep 01 20:34:36 <Hippy> Anyway, Doyle's 'inductive' reasoning at least set up a whole genre of literature
Sep 01 20:35:53 <Lensman> The last time I went in for jury duty, the prosecutor was careful to ask us "Do you think that every crime leaves the kind of forensic evidence you see on 'CSI' "? And of course, like dutiful parrots we all answered "No." But he *did* have to make the point.
Sep 01 20:35:57 <Hippy> No, that's true. But the police case when I was on a jury seemed to just take for granted that we'd accept their version of events without their covering all the bases. So we acquitted the bloke
Sep 01 20:36:29 <Lensman> Yah, Doyle *created* the detective genre. So I don't see that any author has an axe to grind there.
Sep 01 20:37:03 <growler> Holmes used plenty of drugs, so does House. Both enjoy low brow entertainment that leaves them free to ruminate, both play instruments and use canes and are disdainful of others. Watsons role is played by, er, forget his name, the ontologist.
Sep 01 20:37:23 <Hippy> After all, any author could write a detective novel using actual deduction (as opposed to induction) or even ignore the whole 'logic' thing entirely
Sep 01 20:37:51 <Lensman> What low-brow entertainment did Holmes enjoy regularly?
Sep 01 20:37:52 <Hippy> Wilson
Sep 01 20:38:07 <Hippy> And you make a very good point, growler
Sep 01 20:38:10 <growler> And then there's the series creator flat out saying that House is HOlmes in Doctor drag.
Sep 01 20:38:39 <Hippy> Well, that's pretty convincing.
Sep 01 20:38:47 <Lensman> Oh, I don't doubt that House = Holmes. I don't watch the show often 'nuff to know who "Watson" is.
Sep 01 20:38:56 <Hippy> I must say I haven't read enough Holmes stories to know about his entertainment habits
Sep 01 20:38:58 <growler> Holmes went to vaudeval theatre and read penny dramas
Sep 01 20:39:38 <Lensman> I don't remember that from the canon, altho it's certainly possible it was mentioned here and there.
Sep 01 20:39:59 <growler> Wilson - that's his name. Wilson is the Watson character. But that's obviuosly not so direct as House has a bigger regular cast than Holmes stories.
Sep 01 20:40:25 <Hippy> Cuddy is Moriarty :)
Sep 01 20:41:03 <Hippy> 'She's the Napoleon of hospitals, Wilson' aaid House, taking another kilo of cocaine for mediciinal purposes
Sep 01 20:41:18 <growler> Holmes inspires the production of House but obviously it'll differ in it's own life. I love House. Next to Q.I it's the best thing on TV.
Sep 01 20:41:48 <Hippy> Q.1?
Sep 01 20:42:09 <Lensman> (echo) Q.I ?
Sep 01 20:42:31 <Hippy> Is it a spin off of 'Shortland Street'?
Sep 01 20:42:42 * Hippy making a reference that Lens won't get
Sep 01 20:43:27 <growler> "Q.I", short for Quite Interesting is an example of a type of show that's common in the U.K. Others of it's ilk are "Have I got news for you", "Never mind the buzzcocks", "Mock the week" and "8 out of 10 cats". There are more...
Sep 01 20:43:47 <growler> Perhaps you've heard the radio show "Sorry, I"ll say that again"
Sep 01 20:44:12 <Hippy> That I have heard of
Sep 01 20:44:18 <growler> Anyway, all these shows are variations of the same concept - get a group of interesting and witty people togather with an excuse to be entertaining.
Sep 01 20:44:33 <Hippy> But is 'Quite Interesting' on TV over there?
Sep 01 20:44:43 <growler> Nope
Sep 01 20:44:51 <growler> The Net is your friend.
Sep 01 20:45:11 <Hippy> Ah. . . You torrenter, you :)
Sep 01 20:45:21 <growler> You can buy it on DVD now and I absolutely gaurantewe everyone here and on the LN list would never regret buying it. You will watch it many times.
Sep 01 20:45:43 <growler> The first series is out that is.
Sep 01 20:45:45 * Hippy afk for another cup of tea - but will keep it in mind
Sep 01 20:46:01 <growler> They've made four of QI so far. Have I got news for you is up to about series thirty now.
Sep 01 20:46:22 <Hippy> No. Must resist. . .urge. . .to buy. . . Saving for trip next year
Sep 01 20:46:45 <Lensman> My favorite show lately (now that Battlestar Galactica is on haitus) is "Ice Road Truckers". I imagine some of it is staged "reality show", but nonetheless it's pretty interesting. About the truckers that haul loads up to the far northern mines on "roads" across frozen lakes.
Sep 01 20:47:14 <growler> QI is hosted by Stephen Fry. He asks his guests, who include some very witty and some very well infomred people, interesting questions. But they're nearly all quite hard and/or trick questions. People are rewarded for giving interesting answers, punished for given opbvious, but wrong, answers.
Sep 01 20:47:20 <Lensman> 30 seasons? Wow! That
Sep 01 20:47:27 <Lensman> that's a pretty long run for a show.
Sep 01 20:47:52 <growler> Well, about two season per year. So it's like 15 years and not 30 it's been running.
Sep 01 20:48:30 <growler> Never mind ther buzzcocks - which is about music and invovles famous musicians and othersi n the business, has been running for about twelve years and is up to series 21
Sep 01 20:48:43 <Lensman> Sounds like the Dawn Patrol chat room. Make the most obscure reference possible, then see how many get it. As tho it's an intelligence test-- which, in fact, it is.
Sep 01 20:50:04 <growler> It stuns me that these shows aren't shown in Australasia - they'd be cheap to buy, are witty, fun and intelligent, and would appeal to huge audiences. No one I have everi ntorduced to Q.I has been less than absolutely delighted with it. But no, Coronation Street and Eastenders. The Bill. Wot else cud the sheeple wont? Thinks programmers.
Sep 01 20:50:10 <Lensman> I heard a good one some years ago. This would have been, oh about 1978, in an SF trivia game. "Warning: this is a trick question. Who has won the most Hugos?"
Sep 01 20:52:00 <Lensman> We get "Eastenders" here on BBC America. Can't see the appeal, myself. OTOH they *did* re-run "To the Manor Born" not too long ago-- hurrah! I wish they'd run some of the old SF or fringe-SF TV shows that we never got to see over here... but I guess most of those are ITV and therefore not owned by BBC? Not sure how that works.
Sep 01 20:53:16 <growler> The Net is your friend. 1990 for instance was recently re-broadcast in the U.K.
Sep 01 20:53:50 <Hippy> Oh, at least you're spared Australian Idol'
Sep 01 20:54:49 <Hippy> 1990?????? YAY!!!
Sep 01 20:55:02 <Hippy> Looks like I'll be hammering the bandwidth tonight
Sep 01 20:55:05 <Lensman> Gahh! Can it be any worse than "American Idol"? Well, of course no one *has* to watch it-- I certainly don't-- but I'm surprised at the number of otherwise obviously intelligent people who seem obsessed with that show!
Sep 01 20:55:34 <growler> Oh yeah. I'd like to apologise to the world for all this Idol nonsense and the genre we invented. Our bad (mid you there's some real enjoyable talent on 'So you think you can dance')
Sep 01 20:56:08 <Hippy> Of course TV shows dumb it down because it's cheaper to make, but the current mood seems to be to completely insult the intelligence of anyone smart enoguh to turn on a TV
Sep 01 20:56:39 <Hippy> On the other hand, I now have 'Angel' in the background, which is utter drivel, so this dumbing down isn't a new thing
Sep 01 20:57:27 <Lensman> There may be-- probably is-- real talent on "American Idol" and its clones. It's the way the contestants are treated-- or rather, mistreated-- that I object to. It's the old "Let's see how much humiliation someone is willing to put up with to get attention" thing. Same as on the old "Newlywed Game" show. A blot on Western Civilization if there ever was one!
Sep 01 20:57:59 <Lensman> "Angel", the spinoff of "Buffy"?
Sep 01 20:59:37 <Hippy> the very same, Lens
Sep 01 21:01:23 <Hippy> The perils of having a teenager in the house
Sep 01 21:01:51 <growler> You ought check out uknova.com Hippy - dedicated to UK shows that are not available on DVD or re-broadcast abroad (they remove shows you ought be able to 'legally' acquire)
Sep 01 21:01:59 <Lensman> Well, my standards in entertainment are high 'nuff that I watch *very* little night-time drama these days, but I wouldn't single out "Angel" as a bad example. I know plenty of people who watched that show faithfully. Personally, I found it too depressing and lacking in sympathetic or interesting characters. A far cry from "Buffy"!
Sep 01 21:02:31 <Hippy> Are they reliable, gorwler? I've been burnt by those sites before
Sep 01 21:02:50 <growler> Yeah, and the way it floundered without real foundation showed it was being made just because it could be and not because it was an inspired concept.
Sep 01 21:03:02 <growler> Suffered badly from that.
Sep 01 21:03:06 <Hippy> I just can't bear the dialogue. It's utterly trivial but delivered so earnestly!
Sep 01 21:03:36 <growler> uknoa is, as they say, the shiznit (except their site design sucks, but one oughtn't compain about free services)
Sep 01 21:03:38 <Lensman> "Burnt" in what respect? We are talking free/pirate downloads, are we not?
Sep 01 21:04:19 <growler> I think he means do they refer to nonsense and malware masquerading as something desireable.
Sep 01 21:04:22 <growler> No they don't.
Sep 01 21:04:39 <Lensman> I think my mIRC just broke, or you are now conversing in some alien language. "shiznit"??
Sep 01 21:04:56 <Hippy> No, this was a site that sent you DVDs. I can't even remember the name of it now, but anyway, I paid and got some DVDs, but they were corrupted and one of them was blank. I wasn't impressed
Sep 01 21:05:16 <Lensman> Ah, well that's different.
Sep 01 21:05:18 <growler> They have good quality control and only list torrents for things broadcast on UK TV that are not shown abroad or for sale as DVDs. Basically thier purpose is to let peopel outside of the UK watch UK TV.
Sep 01 21:05:55 <Lensman> I bought a Star Trek Bloopers DVD at a convention, it wouldn't play. At all. Not even in my-- or my friends'-- computers.
Sep 01 21:06:05 <Hippy> Well, if they have '1990' I'
Sep 01 21:06:10 <Hippy> m in
Sep 01 21:06:11 <growler> Shiznit dog, like its pizzle is the snizzle o' the dizzle.
Sep 01 21:06:31 <Lensman> BUT there was a happy ending-- one of my friends complained to the same dealer just this past year at our annual con, and the dealer replaced it for free!
Sep 01 21:07:07 <Lensman> So, please inform this ignorant fan why "1990" is the greatest thing since sliced bread?
Sep 01 21:07:57 <growler> That DVD might just have a media data file in an obscure format. Try and open it from your PC using VLC (www.videolan.org). It contains within itself the codecs (compressor/decompressor) for a very wide range of files. And may well play things standard software found on PCs wont.
Sep 01 21:08:03 <Hippy> It's a series fromt he 70's which talks about a future Britiain. By 1990 the UK has become a police state
Sep 01 21:08:29 <Hippy> It's one man's story as he battles the Powers That Be to help people leave a crumbling Britain
Sep 01 21:08:54 <growler> Oh it isn't the greatest thing, it's just an interesting blast form the past. 1990 is a drama made in the 1970's about a future UK police state. It's sort of 1984 lite the series.
Sep 01 21:09:20 <Lensman> "Fahrenheit 451"... "V for Vendetta"... what is this obsession Brits have over fear of a police state?
Sep 01 21:09:49 <growler> Europeans in general have totalitarean states on the mind because of recent direct experiences with them.
Sep 01 21:09:53 <Hippy> Well, because they've come close to one in the past, I suppose
Sep 01 21:10:15 <growler> Authors and artists are forever reminding people to keep an eye out for it.
Sep 01 21:10:29 <Hippy> There's an old NZ movie called 'Sleeping Dogs' where New Zealand is a police state
Sep 01 21:10:42 <Lensman> Well, that's a point-- perhaps if the Third Reich had threatened to invade America, we might be more prone to that sort of thing.
Sep 01 21:10:55 <Hippy> In 1979, '1990' seemed very plausible
Sep 01 21:11:31 <Lensman> "In 1979" = before the fall of the Soviet Union?
Sep 01 21:11:41 <growler> Yeah, from a book called 'Smiths Dream'. It was a direct warning about our governmnet of the time which had an odious little toad at the lead (and our being pressured into invovlement with vietnam)
Sep 01 21:11:55 <Hippy> It's part of your culture that you'll rebel against that sort of tyranny. Police State America just wouldn't seem right
Sep 01 21:12:17 <growler> Bolocks.
Sep 01 21:12:27 <Hippy> Go on
Sep 01 21:13:20 <growler> Which is to say derisive snort, the U.S ideal of freedom seems to be tested quite a lot at the moment and the public reaction to it's strain doesn't seem encouraging
Sep 01 21:13:33 <Lensman> Well, some of the Homeland (in)Security stuff here is somewhat alarming-- and I'm both incensed and ashamed on pretty much a daily basis on how our gov't is holding people indefinitely, with no legal council or hope of ever being freed. So much for "America, the land of the free..."
Sep 01 21:14:06 <Hippy> In real life, you could start a police state anywhere, but could you make a movie about it?
Sep 01 21:14:23 <growler> Read an interesting review of some science recently where psychologists took two groups and asked them questions about policies... things like immigration, law and order...
Sep 01 21:14:44 <growler> one group was the contrl and just asked the questions, the other group had a couple of extra questions inserted...
Sep 01 21:15:03 <Lensman> OTOH we interred Japanese-Americans during WW II and we seem to have recovered our morals from that. I'm *hoping* the same will happen in the future!
Sep 01 21:15:09 <growler> these questions were of the kind "What do you think will happen to you when you die?" the idea being to remind them of their mortality...
Sep 01 21:15:48 <growler> groups of people reminded of there mortality react much more strngly against the 'otehr' and band closer together into a 'conservative' group. The idea...
Sep 01 21:16:21 <Lensman> Fear encourages xenophobia? Of course it does.
Sep 01 21:16:24 <growler> they werei nvestigating is why politics of fear works for fascists. Their conclusion is that people reminded of their mortality are wired to react against it.
Sep 01 21:17:01 <Hippy> React against their mortality?
Sep 01 21:17:44 <growler> Obviously psychologists are trying to understand the mechanism of why fear invokes such responses. This was an experiment to locate the nature of the fear required.
Sep 01 21:17:59 <Hippy> But fear works in almost everything. Most advertising is based on fear (the only excetion I could think of the other day was for cars)
Sep 01 21:18:16 <growler> Getting people to confront their own mortality seems to be the trick to get them to stop reasoning clearly and reacting more viscerally.
Sep 01 21:19:58 <Lensman> Well I can think of plenty of exceptions to "most advertising is based on fear". Very few food/ restaurant commercials use that, unless they're selling "low cholesteral" etc.
Sep 01 21:20:44 <Lensman> However, I have noted with a shock that there's a new batch of commercials that seem to be not-so-subtly implying that you're a bad parent if you don't protect your children by buying "our product".
Sep 01 21:21:46 <Hippy> Yep. We have a few food ads like that, and of course disinfectants and insurance are always sold like that
Sep 01 21:22:04 <Lensman> Worst offender: An add for a cleaning product, which shows a small child in the foreground, while the CGI is showing "dramatized" exaggeration of really icky germs "growing" on sinks, faucets, door handles... anything communally handled, basically.
Sep 01 21:22:52 <Hippy> People dumb enough to fall for that shouldn't have money :)
Sep 01 21:23:32 <Hippy> Anyway, gnetlemen, I must adjourn. It's hovering near the meridian and I should head down to the shops
Sep 01 21:23:46 <Lensman> I always find it bizarre that insurance commercials sell "protection". One company here even used an umbrella to symbolize their protection! Get real-- insurance won't protect you from *anything*. The best it can do is make it easier to rebuild/ replace after a disaster.
Sep 01 21:23:53 <Hippy> . ..or 'the store' as we're being encouraged to call it
Sep 01 21:24:07 <Lensman> G'nite, Hippy.
Sep 01 21:24:19 <Lensman> Er, "G'day"?
Sep 01 21:24:23 <Hippy> Good night, Lens
Sep 01 21:24:31 <Hippy> Good afternoon, growler
Sep 01 21:24:39 <growler> ciao
Sep 01 21:24:52 <Hippy> And a hearty 'avagoodweegend' to everyone else :)
Sep 01 21:24:57 * Hippy has quit ()
Sep 01 21:25:08 <growler> Personalyy I only insure my house, because I can't cover it's loss out of pocket. I don;t bother insuring my car or the like. I'd never buy one I couldn't afford to lose.
Sep 01 21:25:36 <growler> So the Aston Martins a long way off.
Sep 01 21:26:09 <Lensman> Yah. Unless you have a fairly new car, paying more than liability insurance just isn't worth what you get.
Sep 01 21:28:34 <growler> Insurance is just a bet. Obviously the insurance company thinks it works out in their favour and generally I agree. I just can't afford to cover my own bet with my house.
Sep 01 21:29:11 <growler> Especially since the governmnets earthquake and disaster relief funds are tied to home insurance.
Sep 01 21:29:36 <growler> And I do live in what was once a river bed for a river that's still there.
Sep 01 21:29:40 <Lensman> I look at insurance as a form of gambling. I think that gives one a healthy perspective. I remember I had a phone conversation with a car insurance agent following a wreck I had. She said "Of course, you realize you aren't covered." My heart went into overdrive. "WHAT!! But I was paid up..." "Oh, we're covering the other driver's damage. But your own car isn't covered." "Oh," I said, relieved. "Sure. I look at insurance as a form of gambling.
Sep 01 21:29:58 <Lensman> I see we agree. :)
Sep 01 21:31:45 <growler> I kinda admire our local governments work to avoid flooding - the Waimakiriri river used to flow through my city but is now well established in a new path. But just in case substantial stop banks were built to make sure it doesn't jump back to it's old path. Cleverly...
Sep 01 21:32:27 <Lensman> I hope the engineering there was better than it has been the past few decades in New Orleans!
Sep 01 21:32:38 <growler> ...the city being to the south the stop banks are ~10metres high on the south side, and only ~5meters high on the north side. Nice simple setup. If a really bad flood happens it'll find farmlands north of the river muhc easier to reach.
Sep 01 21:33:37 <growler> and they're not light walls - they're bloody great hills of earth
Sep 01 21:34:01 <Lensman> I'm still stunned by the incompetance there, using soil with almost no clay content, which will be washed away literally in *seconds* under flood conditions, to form the foundations of the levees.
Sep 01 21:35:35 <Lensman> That's smart; deliberately engineering it so that if it *does* flood, you're controlling where the flood goes. Of course, part of the problem with new Orleans is they reduced the wetlands which should have absorbed at least part of the flood, but that doesn't excuse the incometance at building-- and re-building!-- the levees.
Sep 01 21:37:43 <growler> During the great depression that's what NZ did to pass the time - the governmnet employed everybody to go around and build dams and public earthworks. We had the worlds biggest hydroelectric earth dam at the end.
Sep 01 21:39:23 <growler> From what I see in the maps online New Orleans is pretty much untenable. I've heard the only possible successful plan for rebuilding it in it's entirety would be the undoing of decades of draining and alteration to the whole missisipi delta. Something whihc sounds unlikely.
Sep 01 21:40:36 <Lensman> I'm no engineer, but it seemed pretty clear to me: They had a soil expert on this documentary, and he held up a lump of dirt, and said "This is the type of soil which was dumped in to re-build the levees." He turned on a plain ordinary sink faucet, and held the lump of dirt under the stream of falling water. The lump washed away literally in a few seconds! "Now, here's what they *should* have used," he continued, holding up another lump of soil with
Sep 01 21:43:39 <Lensman> Well, I haven't studied the New Orleans situation in detail. What I have seen indicates to me that, as you say, it's not really practical to try to protect the low-lying areas. Those should be abandoned, or converted to parks. Building homes or warehouses in such an area is just foolish. The problem is, of course, that port cities keep growing, but there just isn't any more high ground in the New Orleans area to build on-- all the high ground is al
Sep 01 21:45:37 <growler> Sounds like an opportunity for another city either further up or down the river to muscle in on New Orleans business. That must be happening anyway with New Orleans out of action for a long period. Might be there just isn't any reason for NEw Orleans any more.
Sep 01 21:46:00 <growler> Cepting Mardi Gras, and you don't need a whole city for that.
Sep 01 21:46:15 <growler> Got to go play some footy now.
Sep 01 21:46:15 <Lensman> Of course we had some great "public works" projects here during the Great Depression too-- Hoover Dam the most notable one. I think the Tennessee Valley Authority system of canals was another. That was back when the Army Corps of Engineers had the attitude "The merely difficult we do daily. The impossible takes a bit longer." These days they're a very poor shadow of their former competance.
Sep 01 21:46:17 <growler> Ciao