Chat Log: October 2nd, 2010

[03:13] Akiraa has joined #knownspace
[07:03] nedry has joined #knownspace
[07:04] #knownspace> nedry: has the chat started yet?
[07:04] #knownspace> nedry: heh
[09:45] #knownspace> sean: nope
[10:12] #knownspace> nedry: how about now?
[10:30] #knownspace> nedry: now?
[10:30] #knownspace> nedry: i can't decide what to make for dinner...
[10:30] #knownspace> nedry: sigh.
[12:11] Merlin_McCarley has joined #knownspace
[12:33] #knownspace> sean: i am doing garlic jalepeno tilapia
[12:34] #knownspace> sean: never can spell that word
[12:49] #knownspace> nedry: is that a kind of fish?
[12:50] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Aye
[12:56] #knownspace> nedry: never had that
[12:56] #knownspace> sean: its a generic whitefish
[12:57] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Make it habanero and I'll be happier.
[12:57] #knownspace> sean: really doesnt have any flavor of its own. takes on the flavor of what you cook with it.
[12:57] #knownspace> sean: habanero would be a bit hot for julie.
[12:57] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: It it the bandersnatch of the fish world.
[13:01] #knownspace> sean: http://www.food.com/recipe/jalapeno-garlic-tilapia-by-johnny-carinos-192519
[13:02] #knownspace> nedry: sounds nice to me
[13:04] #knownspace> Akiraa: so it looks like P2P crypto will become illegal, if the FBI have their way
[13:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: http://www.grc.com/securitynow.htm
[13:08] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Bah, good luck to them. Would be a rights nightmare. International implications would keep it locked in legislation for decades.
[13:11] NickE has joined #knownspace
[13:14] #knownspace> sean: hi nick
[13:26] #knownspace> NickE: Greetings programmes
[13:27] #knownspace> NickE: (in and out this evening)
[13:33] #knownspace> nedry: how does it make you feel that I is a program?
[13:34] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Would it help if I prefer to think of ye as constructs?
[13:38] #knownspace> NickE: hm, thought talk like a pirate day was a couple of weeks back :)
[13:38] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Ye is just English. I did not say Yarr or Argg.
[13:40] #knownspace> NickE: Arrr
[13:40] #knownspace> NickE: Of course Ye would have been pronounced "thee"
[13:41] #knownspace> NickE: When it was in use
[13:41] #knownspace> NickE: I just always liked that greeting from Tron
[13:42] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Hello Constructs is from Ashes to Ashes, yes I did recognize it ;)
[13:44] #knownspace> NickE: Never got pats the first few eps of Ashes, it was no Life on Mars
[13:45] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: True, but nice eye candy. And the payoff is quite good. You didn't seriously watch it for Simm did ye?
[13:45] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Glenister is the bomb.
[13:46] #knownspace> NickE: Admitted, Gene Hunt was a great character
[13:47] #knownspace> NickE: I just thought that the 80s was too close if you know what I mean. I grew up in 70s Britain
[13:47] #knownspace> NickE: And yes, it was that grim :-)
[13:48] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Ah, stateside here (same decades). Apart from some of the culture/politics it was very similar over here.
[13:50] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Keeley Hawes though, -drool-
[13:50] #knownspace> NickE: fair nuff :-)
[13:50] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: :P
[13:51] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[14:19] #knownspace> NickE: back, but will b eating shortly
[14:20] #knownspace> NickE: BTW, bought a print at Dragon Con this year which is quite simply one of the nicest and accurate depictions of the Ringorld that I have evr seen
[14:21] #knownspace> NickE: Ringworld (typing up to my usual standards I see)
[14:21] #knownspace> sean: off to a store so julie can buy scratch off lottery tickets... sigh
[14:23] #knownspace> NickE: maybe this time eh :-)
[14:28] #knownspace> NickE: The artist of this RW print was John E Kaufmann. Lovely bloke, frighteningly talented computer graphic artist - does astronomically accurate pics of stunning quality
[14:28] #knownspace> NickE: as well as plenty of other cool stuff
[14:30] Lensman has joined #knownspace
[14:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi, fen!
[14:32] #knownspace> NickE: http://spaceart1.ning.com/photo/tvashtaronio-1/prev?context=user
[14:33] #knownspace> NickE: great pic
[14:34] #knownspace> NickE: you can see the spaceport rings and FOG desert to the right (FOG itself on this scale is invisible)
[14:35] #knownspace> NickE: all as to scale as possible.
[14:35] #knownspace> NickE: dinnertime. back in a bit
[14:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, that's a great image. I haven't used it at the Incompleat Known Space Concordance yet, but I'm seriously thinking of a Ringworld image gallery.
[14:44] #knownspace> NickE: the nice thing was, I stopped in my tracks when I saw this, John asked if I was a Niven fan and I just happened to be wearing my Larryniven-L T shirt!
[14:51] #knownspace> Lensman: LarryNiven-L T-shirt? First I've heard of any T-shirt! Where can I get one?
[14:56] #knownspace> NickE: I knocked up a front and back iron on set of shirts for WorldCon 2005 in Glasgow. Larry couldn't attend in the end, but Tim Atkinson and I had lunch with Brenda Cooper and she took one home with her for Larry (who got it as far as I recall)
[14:57] dmac44 has joined #knownspace
[14:57] #knownspace> dmac44: Hey
[14:58] #knownspace> NickE: Front had the puppeteer pic from the Larryniven-L website, name of the list and URL, bach had same name and URL bu the great sequential kzin "ears" pic from the RW RPG
[14:58] #knownspace> NickE: hi
[14:59] #knownspace> NickE: I still have the patter as word docs somewhere
[14:59] #knownspace> NickE: pattern
[15:00] #knownspace> NickE: I'm sure i discussed this all on list at the time, but that was 5 years ago (less active last couple of years)
[15:01] #knownspace> NickE: As I recall, I offered and even sent out attachments to anyone that wanted them
[15:05] #knownspace> NickE: (fetching beer, brb)
[15:09] Larry has joined #knownspace
[15:09] #knownspace> Larry: Hello.
[15:09] #knownspace> NickE: H Larry!
[15:10] vilstef has joined #knownspace
[15:10] SolBelter has joined #knownspace
[15:10] #knownspace> Larry: What's new, Nick?
[15:10] #knownspace> NickE: This
[15:10] #knownspace> NickE: http://spaceart1.ning.com/photo/tvashtaronio-1/prev?context=user
[15:11] #knownspace> SolBelter: Lensman, Larry, sean - hello
[15:11] #knownspace> NickE: met the artist at Dragon Con. very nice stuff
[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi, SolBelter!
[15:11] #knownspace> NickE: Everyone is showing up
[15:11] #knownspace> NickE: oops
[15:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, if you would please send me a copy of the T-Shirt design to me at lensman@sunflower.com, I'd appreciate it!
[15:12] #knownspace> SolBelter: Lensman, thx for your comments on my "Enjoying Ringworld" for the Tor "Rereading Ringworld"
[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: How's things Larry?
[15:13] #knownspace> Larry: I was at 2 Dragon Cons. Huge. Fun. At one I was ill. At the other I replaced Zelazny as guest. I should go again.
[15:13] #knownspace> SolBelter: [sorry NickE, but wanted to say that to Lensman in case i lose connex again]
[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: Please do! Wait till 2012 though as that's trhe earliest I will be able to afford it again :-)
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: SolBelter: I hope you will complete that article. I didn't realize you were not a member of our team... I don't think you asked to be added to our discussion group, or if you did I missed it.
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: This year was fantastic
[15:14] #knownspace> Larry: It's been hot, and we've been having trouble with air conditioners. Otherwise life is placid.
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Larry! I just now realized you were here. That's what I get for multi-tasking.
[15:14] #knownspace> NickE: Which is no bad thing :-)
[15:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, have you seen a copy of THE BEST OF LARRY NIVEN?
[15:15] #knownspace> SolBelter: ah, the humidity of Earth, unlike dry Down, WeMadeIt?, any others?
[15:15] #knownspace> Larry: Hi, Lensman. No, I haven't seen the book, but I've seen good reviews.
[15:15] #knownspace> SolBelter: NickE - yes, chinese uninteresting times'
[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Sol: I should have said, I hope you will complete that article SOON. I'd like it to be the second blog post, and the first has already been submitted.
[15:16] #knownspace> Larry: Selecting which stories to leave out was a terrible task.
[15:16] #knownspace> SolBelter: Roger, Lensman
[15:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: Oh, did you have input on which stories were selected?
[15:17] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, I selected which stories went in.
[15:17] #knownspace> NickE: So many to chose from - not that I'm complaining!
[15:17] #knownspace> Larry: I was given a word limit.
[15:18] #knownspace> SolBelter: Ballantine once did the 'Best of cordwainer smith', so i wanted them to call the next volume 'Thed Worst of Ccordwainer Smith' :)
[15:18] #knownspace> NickE: For each story length?
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: By the way, BETRAYER OF WORLDS is out October 12, and we all have our pre-orders in at Amazon.com, right? ;)
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Well I confess I don't yet myself, but I will soon!
[15:18] #knownspace> SolBelter: tick...tick...tick...yep, Lens
[15:18] #knownspace> NickE: Oooh. Didn't realise (bit out of teh loop)
[15:18] #knownspace> Larry: I will never publish "The Second Best of Larry Niven".
[15:18] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[15:18] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL
[15:19] #knownspace> SolBelter: aw Larry, we need some of the rest in print :)
[15:19] #knownspace> Lensman: "All of Larry's stories are equal, but some are more equal than others."
[15:19] #knownspace> SolBelter: "More Best of Niven", then for a title
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: Best of Niven II
[15:20] #knownspace> Larry: "Still the Best of Niven"?
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: Again Dangerous Niven?
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[15:20] #knownspace> Larry: Should have been "Dangerous Revisions".
[15:20] #knownspace> NickE: LOL!!!!
[15:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Son of Best of Niven. Grandson of Best of Niven. Nth Descendent of Best of Niven. Mother-in-law of Best of Niven.
[15:21] #knownspace> NickE: We could kep going all night
[15:21] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL "Dangerous Revisions" Larry is in exceptional form today!
[15:23] #knownspace> SolBelter: "Stories', Story Engineers', Story throne" and CHildren of SDtories"
[15:23] #knownspace> Larry: Have you seen recent predictions for Earthlike worlds? One family of possibilities has a thick water shell...
[15:23] #knownspace> NickE: (Sol, sorry, missed that earlier comment - yeah, had better years. C'est la vie)
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: Do you have a link?
[15:24] #knownspace> Larry: Ice7, Ice10, Ice11...all highly compressed, all at white heat beneath a surface of ordinary water.
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: Latest on Gliese 581 is is is interesting
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: Whoa!
[15:24] #knownspace> SolBelter: Re the issue of what LarryTasles are in print, a quote from Lensman to me earlier today regarding Neutron Star collection... *What's in print
[15:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Speaking of titles... I've been working with Mark Firestone aka Chief Strike Anywhere aka Inferno, on a revamped Known Space Concordance website. I'd like to get a more appropriate URL. Unfortunately is taken. I'm soliciting suggestions. Maybe ... but that's pretty long.
[15:25] #knownspace> NickE: (boy my typing is up to its usual crap standards today :-)
[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, it's too bad NEUTRON STAR has fallen out of print. There was a reprint of that in an omnibus edition along with two other KS titles, but it's so obscure that I don't think it's even worth mentioning.
[15:26] #knownspace> SolBelter: Lensman said [gaah - cant paste in, cuts off at end of line...
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: http://jek2004.com/Gliese-581c-.jpg
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: nice
[15:27] #knownspace> Lensman: I still think NEUTRON STAR was Larry's best collection, as far as top quality on all stories. Altho Larry doesn't agree on "The Ethics of Madness", says it's his "worst mistake" and so probably doesn't want to see it reprinted.
[15:27] #knownspace> sean: nice pic
[15:28] #knownspace> Larry: "Ethics of Madness" not my worst story. Just, needed a better ending.
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: yeah, John Ks stuff is excellent
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: So waht was your wordst story?
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: (You walked into that :-)
[15:28] #knownspace> Lensman: That newly discovered planet in Gliese (sp?) is only earth-like in being in the habitable zone and being a terrestrial (rocky) planet. As a one-face world orbiting a red dwarf star, it's far from earth-like.
[15:28] #knownspace> SolBelter: try again - Lensman said But aside from getting a copy of the out-of-print NEUTRON STAR, the story "The Soft Weapon" can be found in the more recent PLAYGROUNDS OF THE MIND. Unfortunately, "At the Core" can onl be found in NEUTRON STAR and CRASHLANDER. Alternatively, for those unable to read "The Soft Weapon", "The Warriors" can be found in TALES OF KNOWN SPACE, THREE BOOKS OF KNOWN SPACE, THE MAN-KZIN WARS (Vol. I), and MAN-
[15:29] #knownspace> NickE: Oh certainly it's not earth like, but hey One Face? :-)
[15:29] #knownspace> SolBelter: but Lens, it's only 1.2 earth masses, with habitable zones at twilight/dawn
[15:30] #knownspace> Lensman: ...and MAN-KZIN WARS: THE BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WARS.
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: It's the fact that it's of the right size range and in teh right place - means it's unlikely to be the only one, we just ned to find more
[15:30] #knownspace> Lensman: 1.2 earth masses? I must have misread, I thought it was about 3 earth masses.
[15:30] #knownspace> SolBelter: yeah NickE!
[15:30] #knownspace> SolBelter: or i may bewrong :)
[15:30] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry, are you working on any new Known Space stories (besides Betrayer, I know it's coming out soon)?
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: I thought it was 3-4 earth mass
[15:31] #knownspace> NickE: Iguess more observation will fine tune that info
[15:31] #knownspace> Lensman: "One Face" is IMHO one of Larry's better stories, but I don't think it's believable as far as being habitable.
[15:31] #knownspace> sean: i like how it was said in Contact. If we are the only ones, it seems like a lot of wasted space.
[15:31] #knownspace> NickE: Indeed
[15:32] #knownspace> SolBelter: Lens was right 3 to 4 masses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581_g
[15:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Wait... no, I'm remembering wrong. In "One Face" they were going to use the space drive to start the planet spinning so they *could* make it more earth-like.
[15:32] #knownspace> NickE: I just love that multiple planet systems are being found and better observed
[15:32] #knownspace> dmac44: I read 3 earth masses too. But if it was 1.2 and if it could be a double planet .....
[15:32] #knownspace> Larry: My worst story will be too obscure for you, though several choices. I wrote some fan fiction.
[15:33] #knownspace> SolBelter: betcha Lens knows it
[15:33] #knownspace> sean: Larry, my gf Julie just said that you need to keep books coming out in Oct/Nov so she has easy present ideas for me for birthday and christmas.
[15:33] #knownspace> NickE: oh ho. Dish! :-)
[15:33] #knownspace> Lensman: There is no Niven fiction too obscure for Lensman! Yes, I *am* the master of useless trivia!
[15:34] #knownspace> NickE: Well as long as it wasn't slash @-)
[15:34] #knownspace> Larry: Oct/Nov is a good slot for bestsellers, for Christmas/Hannukah sales.
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Fan fiction? Well, there is "The Pastel Terror". Is this more obscure than that?
[15:34] #knownspace> SolBelter: (I'd only know it because Lens sent me a copy :)
[15:35] #knownspace> Larry: OK, Lensman, have you read "When the Necronomicon came out in paperback"?
[15:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: Yes.
[15:35] #knownspace> NickE: bingo
[15:35] #knownspace> SolBelter: LOL
[15:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: That one is at the LarryNiven.org site, isn't it?
[15:35] #knownspace> Larry: :)
[15:36] #knownspace> Larry: "In the Cellar"?
[15:36] #knownspace> NickE: Oh I love taht one
[15:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, "The Last Necronomicon" is here: http://www.larryniven.net/stories/Necronomicon.shtml
[15:36] #knownspace> Larry: I am not currently working on Known Space except with Ed Lerner.
[15:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, I *love* "In the Cellar"! I'm astonished you've never collected it.
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE: I even ..no I'll leave that titbit for now
[15:37] George has joined #knownspace
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE: Hi George
[15:38] #knownspace> sean: .weather 40601
[15:38] #knownspace> Outsider: Cloudy, 62.6℉ (17℃), 30.03in (1014mb), Moderate breeze 14kt (↑) - KLOU 14:53, 1853Z
[15:38] #knownspace> George: Hi Nick!
[15:38] #knownspace> SolBelter: Necro in pb http://www.haxan.com/forum/index.php?topic=930.15
[15:38] #knownspace> NickE: you playin with the bots again Sean?
[15:38] #knownspace> SolBelter: hi George
[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Seriously, Larry, did you have any really early fan fiction that predates "The Coldest Place"?
[15:38] #knownspace> George: Greetings!
[15:39] #knownspace> sean: quicker using outsider to find the temp than looking it up in a browser
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean: I'd appreciate it if you'd delete my e-mail address from this chat log.
[15:39] #knownspace> sean: no problem lensman
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanks.
[15:39] #knownspace> SolBelter: Lensman - there'scash to be made! Remember Ellison buying and tearing up each copy of Glowworm' a fan gives him to sign?
[15:40] #knownspace> SolBelter: let's find something Larry wants unfound :)
[15:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Sol: No, I'm sure there are many stories about Harlan's antics I've never heard.
[15:40] #knownspace> George: :-) Glowworm, eh?
[15:40] #knownspace> SolBelter: it was Ellison's first story
[15:40] #knownspace> George: That bad?
[15:41] #knownspace> SolBelter: in Ellison's mind, yes
[15:43] #knownspace> George: I wonder if Larry would pay to disappear a copy of "By Mind Alone"? ;-)
[15:43] #knownspace> George: No, it wasn't that bad, but it has the seeds of later tales in it.
[15:44] #knownspace> Larry: Fan fiction: I drew (colored pencils) a road thingie: "Supernova ahead!" for APA-L
[15:44] #knownspace> Lensman: It was BYOB-Con V. One of the invited authors, altho I don't think he was a headline Guest, was Steven Utely (sp?), who had recently gotten some attention for his "Hung Like an Elephant". This was 1975 or '76, and New Wave was all the rage. Steven was strutting around the con with a young woman on each arm, and when I saw his name badge, I recognized the name and innocently but rather...
[15:44] #knownspace> Lensman: ...naively asked "Hey, didn't you have a story published in the back of an issue of PERRY RHODAN?" Steven gave a forced laugh and sneered "Heh, PERRY RHODAN", and quickly steered his admirers away. LOL! Yeah, some writers do find their earliest works embarrassing.
[15:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Hey! I think "By Mind Alone" is a very good story! I like that even better than "In the Cellar".
[15:45] #knownspace> Larry: "By Mind Alone" was pretty bad, agreed.
[15:45] #knownspace> Lensman: So what do *I* know? *shrug*
[15:45] #knownspace> George: It wasn't that bad.
[15:45] #knownspace> SolBelter: Larry, a WorldCon Auctioned off your colored pencils - six Ringworld illos - u didnt keep a xerox [tm] copy of those?
[15:46] #knownspace> SolBelter: illos of Lying Bastard, Arch-of-Heaven and worshipers, glowing shadow-square filiment, and 3 more
[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Wow, now *those* I'd love to chase down! Wonder if Larry would agree to have those scanned and posted online?
[15:47] #knownspace> SolBelter: they were auctioned at a NyCon, probably III
[15:47] #knownspace> Larry: re those Ringworld sketches: I don't mind, but they'd have to be found.
[15:48] #knownspace> SolBelter: ringworld edge was one illo...
[15:48] #knownspace> SolBelter: [cudgeling my memory]
[15:48] #knownspace> sean: NickE, did you post that ringworld pic link for Larry?
[15:48] #knownspace> NickE: aye
[15:49] #knownspace> Larry: Many of the best artists in the field have tackled Ringworld themes. I can't compete.
[15:49] #knownspace> George: But your vision is truest.
[15:49] #knownspace> sean: me either... I have the artistic ability of a turnnip
[15:50] #knownspace> NickE: http://spaceart1.ning.com/photo/ringworlds-edge?context=user
[15:50] #knownspace> NickE: there it is again to save scrolling back
[15:51] #knownspace> SolBelter: <==thinking of 'turnip' heartbeat in "The Thing from outer space" movie
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: It's a challenge, even with moder algorithms to deal with scale and colour
[15:51] #knownspace> NickE: modern
[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Some other uncollected Niven stories: No Exit; Next Time; The Murder of Halley's Comet; Mom and the Kids; Wisdom.
[15:52] #knownspace> NickE: Jon Kaufmann uses these a lot for his astronomical art
[15:52] #knownspace> George: Saw both versions of "The Thing" lately - wow, that new one is a poor substitute.
[15:52] #knownspace> George: <--is looking forward to "Best of Larry Niven". Kudos, Larry, and it's about time there was a book with that title!
[15:52] #knownspace> George: Very curious to see the contents . . .
[15:53] #knownspace> SolBelter: <==waiting for'Best ofNiven -Vol II'
[15:53] #knownspace> NickE: and here we go again with the titles ;-)
[15:54] #knownspace> Larry: "No Exit" is pretty crude. "Next Time" is too.
[15:54] #knownspace> SolBelter: I just want a NESFA Press 2 or 3 vol 'Collected SHort Stories of Niven'
[15:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, "Next Time" was a drabble wasn't it? 100 words. "Wisdom" seems to be a "postcard story", 103 words IIRC.
[15:55] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Need a Flash Crowd collection to go with the twitter phenom of the same name.
[15:56] #knownspace> SolBelter: yeah, i saw a news item about twitter 'flash mobs' and said "no, no, that's flash *crowds*"
[15:56] #knownspace> Larry: Lensman, you're correct.
[15:56] #knownspace> dmac44: With Kindle, etc. why wouldn't we someday be able to buy All of the Collected Works of Larry Niven :)
[15:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Altho "Wisdom" seems to have inspired a Warlock's Era story... was it "The Wishing Game"?
[15:57] EML has joined #knownspace
[15:57] #knownspace> sean: hi ed
[15:57] #knownspace> EML: Hi, all
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Ed
[15:57] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Welcome
[15:57] #knownspace> SolBelter: hey, Ed
[15:57] #knownspace> Lensman: "Flash mob" isn't really the same as a "flash crowd". A "flash mob" is a pre-planned event, whereas a "flash crowd" is spontaneous.
[15:57] #knownspace> George: Greetings, Ed.
[15:57] #knownspace> EML: S'up?
[15:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Welcome Ed!
[15:58] #knownspace> SolBelter: Lens, i didnt realize that :)
[15:58] #knownspace> Lensman: We are discussing the uncollected stories of Larry Niven.
[15:58] #knownspace> Larry: "Wisdom" generated a wish story, but not "The Wishing Game".
[15:58] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: With twitter the distinction is becoming academic. Location tags are making things go quicker.
[15:59] #knownspace> George: S'truth, Lens - flash crowds just happen, flash mobs would be the crooks who take advantage of it all!
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Merlin: Please explain what "location tag" means.
[15:59] #knownspace> Larry: "flash mob" more nearly resembles the "permanent floating riot club".
[15:59] #knownspace> George: >nods<

[15:59] #knownspace> NickE: short of transport booths, teh tech is mostly there
[16:00] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: 2 meanings, you can tag your location in twitter or it can be gps tagged with your location. All automatic.
[16:00] #knownspace> Lensman: No, "flash mob" is an Internet phenomenon where an ad-hoc group gathers for a bizarre group performance.
[16:00] #knownspace> George: Waiting for someone to try to 'riot club" this for real, sometime soon.
[16:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Just Google "flash mob" and you'll see what I mean. They have done some very kewl stuff and some very strange stuff.
[16:01] SolBelter has joined #knownspace
[16:01] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[16:01] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Best bets are NYC or most of Cali.
[16:02] #knownspace> NickE: Hmm, yah all so far have been benevolent if weird
[16:02] #knownspace> NickE: AFAIK
[16:02] #knownspace> SolBelter: thx NickD [readjusting my com laser]\
[16:02] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Feel the burn.
[16:02] #knownspace> NickE: Wouldn't take much to take the riot model to work - scary
[16:02] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Indeed
[16:03] #knownspace> Lensman: To all: I'm surprised no one has asked about what SolBelter and I were discussing. Tor.com will he hosting a series of blog posts for the 40th Anniversary of RINGWORLD. Ed Lerner asked me to put together a team of bloggers for this project. I'm not sure when they will start appearing at Tor.com's blogging site, but perhaps they'll start around the middle of this month. We'll be doing a...
[16:03] #knownspace> Lensman: ...series of blogs on different themes in RINGWORLD, with literary commentary.
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: cool
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: wish I had the time
[16:04] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Ah, have spent the last hour at a pharmacy. Was afk.
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: or was a blogger
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: :-)
[16:04] #knownspace> Lensman: So bookmark that site and check it frequently!
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: K
[16:04] #knownspace> EML: Lensman: in my experience, a post shows up on Tor.com about a day after you email the designated Tor editor to do final review.
[16:04] #knownspace> George: Sounds interesting, Lens!
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: A day after? I was told it takes them a week or so. Perhaps your blogs go thru faster since you're a pro writer?
[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Or at least, the Tor.com editor who's written to me said they want them a week in advance.
[16:06] #knownspace> EML: I haven't posted there in almost a year, and I gather they're getting more process-heavy. If they told you a week, I'd believe them.
[16:06] #knownspace> SolBelter: My paret of this is claiming that 2/3rds of readers like Ringworld if they read Neautron Strar 8 stories and only 1/3rd like Ringworld if they dont read those first
[16:06] #knownspace> SolBelter: [i used to run an sf store in Harvard Sq 1977-89
[16:06] #knownspace> EML: Of course you can fill the pipeline and ask Tor to space out the releases.
[16:07] #knownspace> Lensman: That's an interesting observation SB, I had not heard that before.
[16:07] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi Ed, I know Betrayer is coming out in a few weeks. How's your new InterstellarNet book coming along? Is it still on track for this year?
[16:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Personally, RINGWORLD was the first Niven I read, and it's still my favorite.
[16:07] #knownspace> Larry: SB: I hadn't heard that either.
[16:07] #knownspace> George: Yeah, I have wondered if RW should be one's first Niven, when folks ask for reccomendations.
[16:08] #knownspace> George: reco rec just can't spell that word!
[16:08] #knownspace> sean: I think protector was my first. weird looking alien with a book in his lap. who could pass that up
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: I recommend starting with NEUTRON STAR, but as it's out of print there is a serious barrier there.
[16:08] #knownspace> SolBelter: I had a data set of under one hundred readers i asked about Ringworld bak then
[16:08] #knownspace> SolBelter: it wasnt dived along MIT/tech vs liberal arts sstudents, either
[16:09] #knownspace> EML: Doug: Thanks for asking. The second InterstellarNet book (InterstellarNet: New Order) came out this week. Kindle, too, for those avoiding dead trees. More about it on my blog.
[16:09] #knownspace> SolBelter: divided
[16:09] #knownspace> Lensman: In my opinion, NEUTRON STAR makes a good "backstory" setup for RINGWORLD, which I'd recommend as the second book for new readers.
[16:10] #knownspace> EML: Alternatives to the OOP Neutron Star: Crashlander or Fleet/Juggler of Worlds.
[16:10] #knownspace> Larry: lunch. Back in 12 minutes.
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: But others have said they read WORLD OF PTAVVS or PROTECTOR first, and like that better. Obviously there's a bias towards what you read first of *any* author, not just Niven.
[16:11] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Originally read RW first. But most recently read all the KS stories in date order.
[16:11] #knownspace> EML: Doug: to the rest of your last comment, Betrayer is out October 12th.
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: SolBelter: You might check out my "Reading Order" page at my KS website: http://www.freewebs.com/knownspace/readfirst.htm
[16:11] #knownspace> SolBelter: will do
[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: What is *your* recommendation as to what order the Known Space stories should be read by a new reader?
[16:12] #knownspace> George: What about N-Space as a first Niven?
[16:13] #knownspace> NickE: Rammer was my first Niven, but I didn't know it until I came across A World out of Time a year or 2 later. Must have bene 12 or 13
[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: I think any of Larry's "potpourri" collections will serve well as an intro for a new reader.
[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: But those are not specifically oriented toward Known Space.
[16:13] #knownspace> NickE: Neutron Star is as good and intro as any tbh
[16:13] #knownspace> SolBelter: George, many readers choose novels, but for a short story reader, yes, of the inprint pbs
[16:14] #knownspace> George: Do the need to be KS? Or are we aiming for RW as a second Niven?
[16:15] #knownspace> Lensman: No, it's just that in the context of the RINGWORLD blogs and NEUTRON STAR, that's focusing on Known Space.
[16:15] #knownspace> SolBelter: hmmm...
[16:15] #knownspace> SolBelter: good summary, Lens
[16:15] #knownspace> George: Ah, right.
[16:16] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't think I should try to make a recommendation as far as KS vs. Larry's other writings. I'm obviously prejudiced in favor of KS.
[16:16] #knownspace> EML: Contrarian that I often am, personally I think RW does just fine standalone. Ditto Proector.
[16:17] #knownspace> sean: I agree, Ed.
[16:17] #knownspace> George: How about "Tales of Known Space" as an intro? I always liked that one.
[16:17] #knownspace> dmac44: I agree too.
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: RW worked just fine as a standalone for *me*, when I first read it.
[16:18] #knownspace> sean: I also really enjoy Larry's work in the slower than light universe.
[16:18] #knownspace> George: Yep, "Protector" can stand on it's own, too.
[16:18] #knownspace> dmac44: Ed, how did you get interested in writing KS stories?
[16:18] #knownspace> NickE: both RW and Protector blew me away when I first read (and many times since)
[16:18] #knownspace> SolBelter: EML and Ed, if u *already* have image of fierce kzinti and lovable coward puppeteers, then the shock is greater to learn of puppetteer meddling and admiring Speaker's heroic restraint when angry
[16:18] #knownspace> Lensman: TOKS wouldn't be my recommendation to start. It's mostly a collection of "lesser tales". Altho apparently Larry disagrees, since he put "The Coldest Place" and "Becalmed in Hell" in is BEST OF collection.
[16:19] #knownspace> EML: There's a danger of making prospective readers loath to start, reticent to sign on for lotsa books.
[16:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Contrariwise, TOKS does contain "The Borderland of Sol", one of my top 10 favorite Niven stories.
[16:20] #knownspace> George: To show one's dolphin sense of humor, you might recomend "The Shape of Space". :-)
[16:20] #knownspace> EML: Doug: that's a longer story than I'd attempt in a chat room.
[16:20] #knownspace> SolBelter: EML,that's why Neutron Star collex first, smaller doses b4 committing to novels
[16:20] #knownspace> dmac44: Okay, maybe over a beer sometime at a Worldcon. :)
[16:21] #knownspace> Larry: Known Space stories can be read in any order: my opinion.
[16:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: How about writing up a "how these books came to be" intro for the final "OF WORLDS" book, and tell us the story that's too long to relate here?
[16:21] #knownspace> EML: SB: no quarrel with Neutron Star. But 60s and 70s novels are *short*. A standalone copy of RW or PTAVV (for example) won't scare anyone off.
[16:21] #knownspace> George: Ed, I was going to question your comment, but I have myself held off on starting books by a new (to me) author, if it would lead me to a large additon to my to-read pile!
[16:22] #knownspace> SolBelter: since u were careful to intro reader as if every story could be the reader's first - old editor rujle
[16:22] #knownspace> Lensman: With the average novel growing to such a large and (to me) bloated size in modern times, I find myself seeking out more long short stories.
[16:24] #knownspace> Lensman: I was very happy that RINGWORLD'S CHILDREN was a novel of what I think of as the "proper length".
[16:25] #knownspace> SolBelter: Rin gworld is ...342 pages!! Good point Ed, it is short relative to today novels
[16:25] #knownspace> Lensman: And the OF WORLDS books for the most part don't seem overly long, either.
[16:25] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry and Ed, do you feel pressure to write longer novels or do you think writers just have more to say now?
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, I still think of RW as a "long" novel, an extended travelogue. But by today's standards, it's relatively short!
[16:26] #knownspace> EML: lens: I sorta addressed how I got started with KS in this interview (I was off finding it): http://www.bookloons.com/cgi-bin/Columns.asp?name=EdwardMLerner&type=Interview
[16:26] #knownspace> SolBelter: I hasvent checked in a year, but is Sean or someone archiving these chats still?
[16:26] #knownspace> SolBelter: Me too, Lens!
[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: The process of archiving and posting the chats is being maintained much better in the past couple of years than it was previously.
[16:27] #knownspace> George: Anything under 500 pages is fine with me, but if it's over 700, it really has to appeal to me.
[16:27] #knownspace> NickE: pretty sure they are still being archived
[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: New chats are being posted fairly quickly, on average.
[16:27] #knownspace> EML: Doug: except once, I haven't felt any editorial pressure to extend a book. I didn't pad what I'd written when that happend -- I sacrificed an idea I had hoped would be a whole sequel.
[16:28] #knownspace> Larry: I don't respond to pressure regarding the length of what I write. Stories come in their own lengths.
[16:28] #knownspace> sean: solbelter, knownspaceARM is a log bot and I send the logs to larryniven.net's webmaster every time i remember to. I think I am a month behind.
[16:28] #knownspace> Larry: But the pressure is for longer novels. You need to be good and established to write a shorter one.
[16:29] Treehugger has joined #knownspace
[16:29] #knownspace> Geo: . . . the tanj??
[16:29] #knownspace> NickE: heh, welcome, everyone's here :-)
[16:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi, George. What's the problem?
[16:30] #knownspace> SolBelter: Sean and Lens, thx re chats
[16:30] #knownspace> Geo: Yeah, I was too - tried to use Ed's link, it dropped me out, and the told me I was already here! :-P
[16:30] #knownspace> SolBelter: since i cant copy/paste chat myself as one save for whole text
[16:30] #knownspace> Geo: Couldn't get back in as George C.
[16:30] #knownspace> sean: you havent timed out yet
[16:31] #knownspace> sean: takes 180 seconds
[16:31] #knownspace> Geo: Weird.
[16:31] #knownspace> SolBelter: afk
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, I'm embarrassed I didn't get the chat announcement out until late Friday. I try to get one out Thursday... I'm surprised to see such an active chat today, with my announcement coming so late!
[16:31] #knownspace> Geo: Day trip got cancelled. :-)
[16:31] #knownspace> sean: bike ride?
[16:32] #knownspace> Lensman: I have an automated e-mail reminder of this chat coming to me Thurs and Fri... for some reason, I didn't notice any on Thursday this month.
[16:32] #knownspace> Geo: Nope - just a trip to nearby orchard. Too windy & cool, and things to do at home.
[16:32] #knownspace> Geo: Bikes, that's the other George in Korea. :-)
[16:32] #knownspace> sean: oops... my mistake
[16:35] #knownspace> Larry: Every writer seems to write longer as he gets older. My opinion: he thinks of more nuances, more implications to the basic idea.
[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, it seems younger writers tend to have more new ideas, but older writers flesh them out more, explore the consequences more.
[16:36] #knownspace> Geo: I've heard one say, "All my short stories want to be novels, and the novels want to be trilogys!"
[16:36] #knownspace> EML: I think I write longer now because i take on more challenging storylines than when I was getting started.
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Altho RINGWORLD'S CHILDREN is more chock-full of new ideas than most novels from the fresh-faced! Larry is... unique.
[16:37] #knownspace> SolBelter: Larry, also, dont some of you authors get sellable enough to override editors on length of book?
[16:37] #knownspace> Geo: Good point. Learning wordcraft takes time, and is better learned with easier, shorter works.
[16:37] #knownspace> Larry: There's an anthology shaping, of stories written as homage to Poul Anderson. Set in his universes. What shall I write?
[16:38] #knownspace> Larry: SB: yes we do. But I'm not really a professional. I'm still a dilettante.
[16:39] #knownspace> SolBelter: a story with Dominic Flandry or Nick Van Rijn as offstage initiator of story
[16:39] #knownspace> dmac44: Do you think you could do a post Flandry era story?
[16:40] #knownspace> SolBelter: physics and/or well-biujlt world, like Poul did :) astronomical phenomenon...
[16:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Heinlein notoriously told the publisher that he wouldn't allow THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST to be cut; if they wouldn't agree, he'd take the novel elsewhere. The era of the strong editor has been on the wane ever since. I think that is a huge mistake. I just read Clive Cussler's THE CHASE. Where's an editor when you *need* one? Can you believe a book that contains the word "overexaggerate" that...
[16:40] #knownspace> Lensman: ...has a major author's name on it? I presume it was ghosted, but even so... the crudity of the writing is appalling.
[16:41] #knownspace> SolBelter: themes - duty, obligation, honor, like Poul...
[16:41] #knownspace> Larry: I'd have to read a lot before tackling Flandry. I'd like to dream up a Time Patrol story.
[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah, a new Dominic Flandry or Nicholas van Rijn story... *sigh* that would be very nice, if it were done well.
[16:41] #knownspace> SolBelter: oh yeah!!!
[16:41] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Bravo Larry, do it.
[16:41] #knownspace> Larry: Then again, Poul didn't have access to current "rocky" planets.
[16:41] #knownspace> SolBelter: Time Patrol is my favorite set of Anderson shorts
[16:42] #knownspace> sean: i have never read anderson as far as i know.
[16:42] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'Only Game in Town'when Manse Everard learns his masters arent benevolent
[16:42] #knownspace> SolBelter: easier entry for Larry, less studying
[16:42] #knownspace> Larry: Sean: go for Tau Zero. I beat it for Hugo with Ringworld, but it's definite Hugo quality.
[16:43] #knownspace> sean: Larry, will put that on the list
[16:43] #knownspace> Lensman: I really enjoyed Larry's Lord Dunsany pastiche... the name of the story escapes me at the moment. But I haven't read any of those stories, so I don't know how well the story fits. Writing in the style of another author is something that IMHO not very many authors do well.
[16:43] #knownspace> NickE: He's right, its a classic
[16:43] #knownspace> sean: reading the Sam Gunn Omnibus by Bova right now
[16:44] #knownspace> SolBelter: or for light historical, The High Crusade novel, when aliens land conquer a castle...but then :)
[16:44] #knownspace> Geo: I would think a Time Patrol tale would be a good fit, yes.
[16:44] #knownspace> sean: and lucifer's hammer. again ;)
[16:44] #knownspace> NickE: Oh yeah THC is fun
[16:44] #knownspace> Lensman: I loved THE HIGH CRUSADE, but the believability quotient is fairly low!
[16:45] #knownspace> NickE: Well sure, but its a great read
[16:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Where else will you find a nuclear weapon launched from a catapult? :)
[16:45] #knownspace> SolBelter: sure Lens, but it's the old John Campbell/Eric Frank Russell 'superior but stupid/careless aliens lose to earthies'
[16:46] #knownspace> SolBelter: Lens, ann *extremely* tactical weapon? :))
[16:46] #knownspace> EML: I knew today would be a short visit. Just wanted to pop in and say hi. ttfn.
[16:47] #knownspace> sean: later ed
[16:47] #knownspace> Geo: Bye, Ed
[16:47] #knownspace> NickE: bye Ed
[16:47] #knownspace> dmac44: NickE; WarWorld Stories.
[16:47] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't think Campbell wrote any stories like that. His "Cloak of Aesir" wasn't about stupid/careless aliens, it was Campbell's theme of "Humans are smarter, tougher and nastier than any other critter in the entire galaxy!"
[16:47] #knownspace> dmac44: Bye Ed.
[16:47] #knownspace> SolBelter: looking forward to Larry's character dealing with Time Patrol's masdters, the Daneelians
[16:48] #knownspace> dmac44: Err that comment was meant to reference Lensman
[16:48] #knownspace> Larry: By Ed.
[16:48] #knownspace> SolBelter: Lens, Campbell didnt write any, but got Russell, Chris Anvil and others to do it
[16:48] #knownspace> NickE: WarWorld. Know I should know, but gone blank
[16:48] #knownspace> Lensman: I think Harry Turtledove did a great job with that idea in his WorldWar series; low tech wins because the high tech isn't made to deal with it. Two examples:
[16:49] #knownspace> Larry: Warworld was Jerry Pournelle's, set in Mote universe.
[16:49] #knownspace> NickE: D'oh. Of course
[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: (1) The aliens' EMP weapon just causes static in the WW II era radios; no electronics are fried because they are electro-mechanical devices, and too robust to be burnt out.
[16:50] #knownspace> SolBelter: Sauron System supermen
[16:50] #knownspace> SolBelter: re WarWorld
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: (2) The Nazis fire a Big Bertha type cannon at one of the landed alien spaceships. The spaceship sends out an anti-missile rocket to intercept it, which it does... and the two-ton shell shrugs off the pinprick of the anti-missile and keeps coming, to destroy the spaceship!
[16:51] #knownspace> SolBelter: guffaw
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Unfortunately WorldWar rapidly ground down into repetition as the series advanced. But the first entry in the series was great!
[16:52] #knownspace> NickE: Yes it was. Got Harry to sign mine :-)
[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: WarWorld is set in the CoDominium/Empire of Man universe? I missed that.
[16:53] #knownspace> sean: best thing turtledove has done was Guns of the South IMHO.
[16:53] #knownspace> SolBelter: books come out the endof the month b4 the 'official copyright page date ,
[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean: Certainly by far the best thing I've read from Turtledove. Thank Finagle he didn't try to turn *that* into a series!
[16:54] #knownspace> Geo: Guns of the South was very good, but I love Ruled Brittania.
[16:54] #knownspace> sean: tho the 2 book pearl harbor invasion was pretty good as well
[16:54] #knownspace> SolBelter: so i got a copy of Flight of the Horse,mailed it to Larry, signed and dated Aug when book claimed Sept. See? Proof of time travel!
[16:54] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL!
[16:55] #knownspace> Larry: "Warworld" was a series of anthologies, stories by other authors. "Brenda" (mine) was in there.
[16:55] #knownspace> SolBelter: Turtledove has written so many,I'm at a loss where to start on thevarious series - read a cvopy by him
[16:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Hey, old magazines incl. comic books are/were worse, the cover date is three months in advance, intended to have the zine sit at the news stand for up to three months.
[16:56] #knownspace> Lensman: I've got a copy of WarWorld, because it has "Brenda".
[16:56] #knownspace> Geo: Larry, what about some sort of prequel or sequel to Boat of a Million Years? Always wanted to see more about that.
[16:56] #knownspace> SolBelter: what a chilling character!! Brenda
[16:56] #knownspace> SolBelter: Geo - good one!
[16:57] #knownspace> SolBelter: history again and future
[16:57] #knownspace> Larry: I like scaring you guys.
[16:57] #knownspace> Geo: Brenda (the character) was very easy to empathize with.
[16:57] #knownspace> Larry: "Boat of a Million Years"--I'll look at it again.
[16:58] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'But u would have had to kill 50 people to surpress awareness of you!' She in effect says yes?
[16:58] #knownspace> SolBelter: He gets Scarder, and so did i..;
[16:58] #knownspace> SolBelter: more scared
[16:58] #knownspace> Geo: *shrug* She was a Sauron. >:-)

[16:59] #knownspace> SolBelter: indeed!
[16:59] #knownspace> sean: i like that Brenda made another appearence by offspring in the Gripping Hand
[16:59] #knownspace> SolBelter: and *then* he waits to see what her final decision about thast is...
[17:00] #knownspace> Lensman: And I'm holding in my hand a copy of Jerry's THERE WILL BE WAR, which contains "Reflex".
[17:00] #knownspace> SolBelter: sean, so much i've forgeotten of my reading, re heroffspring
[17:01] #knownspace> sean: Terry Kokumi (sp), the engineer on Freddy's ship is a Brenda decendent.
[17:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Guess I need to re-read "Brenda" too, IIRC she was very easy to identify with, so I don't understand the "chilling" comment.
[17:01] #knownspace> SolBelter: i love some of Larry's ship names - did Brenda have "FireBee"?
[17:01] #knownspace> Geo: She was ruthless, in her way.
[17:01] #knownspace> Geo: But you could see why, and feel for her.
[17:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry's ship names are the best! What other writer would use "Lying Bastard" or "Hogan's Goat" ?
[17:02] #knownspace> SolBelter: oh i liked her, Lens, but the idea that she was quite willing to mull the idea
[17:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Or "Hobo Kelly"?
[17:02] #knownspace> SolBelter: right Geo re ruthless
[17:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, as I say, I need to re-read "Brenda" because I don't remember her as ruthless. (Without Ruth?)
[17:03] #knownspace> Lensman: :)
[17:03] #knownspace> SolBelter: I'm missing a historical ref - about 'Hobo Kelly' [Borderland]
[17:03] #knownspace> Geo: I'm in Marsport without . . . Ruth? Nah.
[17:03] #knownspace> sean: "I wonder where Ruth is"
[17:04] #knownspace> Lensman: But of course, I like the name of the ship in "Flatlander" (the short story) best. ;)
[17:04] #knownspace> Larry: Terry loved her before he knew what she was. Your view of Brenda is slanted.
[17:04] #knownspace> SolBelter: yeth, my country is Ruthia
[17:04] #knownspace> Larry: "I'm in Marsport Without Hilda"==Asimov
[17:04] #knownspace> Geo: Oh, that works! ;-)
[17:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Sol: Actually-- Larry will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong-- "Hobo Kelly" is a very obscure name. I Googled it and found it was a local or regional kid's show featuring puppets. Perhaps an indication Larry loved puppets as a kid? That and "Time for Beany".
[17:05] #knownspace> sean: Ruthlessly (I wonder where Ruth is) is from the Further Adventures of Nick Danger by the Firesign Theater.
[17:05] #knownspace> SolBelter: oh Larry, did BVS-1 on Neutron Star stand for Barely Visible Star - 1?
[17:06] #knownspace> SolBelter: thanks Lens!
[17:06] #knownspace> Larry: BVS-1 didn't stand for anything. They aren't all references.
[17:07] #knownspace> SolBelter: LOL! and here i thot i's been so clever chuckle
[17:07] #knownspace> Geo: Wait - you just . . . made stuff up?? :-O
[17:07] #knownspace> SolBelter: *GASP*
[17:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Tanj! Well, you *should* have been right SB.
[17:07] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: That is what writing is.
[17:08] #knownspace> Geo: I motion that SB is right. All in favor? :-)
[17:08] #knownspace> Geo: So, Hobo Kelly was the kid show guy?
[17:08] #knownspace> SolBelter: only one vote Geo - and it's Larry's,'forthe state'
[17:08] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! Sure, when Larry's stories are written by committee... 8-0
[17:09] #knownspace> Geo: Excuse me, kid show girl.
[17:09] #knownspace> Larry: In favor. I like Barely Visible Star.
[17:09] #knownspace> SolBelter: but thx for thinking it was a possible solution,re BVS-1
[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: 8O
[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm, smiley doesn't seem to work for that.
[17:09] #knownspace> SolBelter: whoa!! aaawriiighttt!
[17:09] #knownspace> Geo: Ah, Hobo Kelly is one who is not what they appear. *slaps forehead*
[17:09] #knownspace> SolBelter: new entry for u, Lensman
[17:10] #knownspace> Lensman: New footnote, maybe.
[17:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Geo: What? Where did you get that? Apparently I have the wrong reference!
[17:11] #knownspace> SolBelter: "...and new input 44 years later reveals"
[17:12] #knownspace> SolBelter: re BVS-1
[17:12] #knownspace> Geo: I googled Hobo Kelly, got a slew of sites that show Kelly was a girl. I thought Kelly was a guy. Perhaps that was just me. :-P
[17:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, the character Hobo Kelly was played by a woman (girl?)
[17:13] #knownspace> SolBelter: did Hobo Kelly appear bigger than a kid?
[17:13] #knownspace> sean: gotta cook some garlic jalapeno tilapia for julie... she claims she is starving to death
[17:13] #knownspace> dmac44: so Hobo Kelly controlled the puppets? Seems familar.
[17:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Woman.
[17:14] #knownspace> Geo: But I do seem to recall some other meaning to Hobo Kelly, something clandestine. ?? If it's just the clown, why would Siggy . . ?
[17:14] #knownspace> SolBelter: i remember being shocked that Peter Pan played by Mary Martin was a woman [hey, i was 8] grin
[17:14] #knownspace> Lensman: I've never seen the show. But I think she was a puppeteer. Not sure there were any other humans on the show.
[17:14] #knownspace> Geo: SB: and wondering why he was so attractive? :-D
[17:15] #knownspace> SolBelter: hey, i was eight [not a worldview i had, re attractiveness of anyone]
[17:15] #knownspace> Geo: Puppets, yes, that may be why Siggy chose the name - Kelly was a controller of puppets?
[17:16] #knownspace> Geo: But the ship was after pirates.
[17:16] #knownspace> SolBelter: but neither the ship victims or [suspected] criminals were puppeteers
[17:16] #knownspace> Geo: Exactly.
[17:16] #knownspace> dmac44: Not until Juggler.
[17:16] #knownspace> Larry: Sigmund may have chosen "Hobo Kelly" because it sounded harmless. I can't remember.
[17:17] #knownspace> Geo: Larry likes scaring us - apparently likes driving us batty, too! :-)
[17:17] #knownspace> Larry: What we currently call Easter Eggs--l like leaving those in a story.
[17:17] #knownspace> SolBelter: Larry, go back on the paranoia pillos, and recreate Siggy's thot process in namig smile
[17:17] #knownspace> SolBelter: pills
[17:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, is "Hobo Kelly" a reference to the children's TV show?
[17:18] #knownspace> Geo: Sounded harmless to me, like a "tramp" freighter, yes?
[17:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Sure, that's what I thought the name implied until I found out about the children's TV show. It's still the *obvious* meaning.
[17:18] #knownspace> SolBelter: re easter eggs, I was just rereading Bey backing away from a 'dangerous joker' groundcar racer in Flatlander
[17:19] #knownspace> Geo: Gotta love the little details!
[17:19] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! I don't think I recognized that Batman reference until it was pointed out by someone else.
[17:19] #knownspace> SolBelter: yes, Geo, that was my assumption too, harmless, below notice
[17:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Forehead-smacking time...
[17:19] #knownspace> Geo: "This joker was obviously dangerously insane." :-D
[17:20] #knownspace> SolBelter: Lens, i missed it first few times back when
[17:20] #knownspace> SolBelter: I had NO idea that authors could be plyful in drama stories
[17:21] #knownspace> SolBelter: playful
[17:21] #knownspace> Lensman: But nobody asked me about the name of the spaceship in which Bey traveled to Earth in "Flatlander". :(
[17:21] #knownspace> Geo: Which was . . ?
[17:21] #knownspace> SolBelter: I just saw that last night and laughed hard
[17:21] #knownspace> SolBelter: i had forgotten it
[17:22] #knownspace> SolBelter: drumroll
[17:22] #knownspace> SolBelter: waiting for ...
[17:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Which was "Lensman".
[17:22] #knownspace> Geo: drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrum
[17:23] #knownspace> Lensman: The reference which has really surprised me has gone over many people's heads is "bandersnatch". That's from the "Jabberwocky" poem in ALICE THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS.
[17:23] #knownspace> SolBelter: and the first appearence of a Hellflare Boy,altho only the tattoo described, notthe fujll name
[17:23] #knownspace> Geo: "Lensman"? Really? I totally don't remember that. :-P
[17:23] #knownspace> SolBelter: re Flatlander
[17:24] #knownspace> Geo: Bandersnatch is hardly obscure, though many might not get it.
[17:24] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'And e very other woman on the Lensman was over 200 years old'
[17:24] #knownspace> Geo: . . . dang. Huh.
[17:24] #knownspace> SolBelter: Neujtron Star page 129
[17:25] #knownspace> Lensman: And the one which irks me the most because people miss it, is "Donovan's Brain". Some fans think that because Eric the Cyborg signs a telegram with that signature line at the end of "Becalmed in Hell" that Eric's last name must be Donovan. Not so! That's a reference to Sodimak's story "Donovan's Brain", which was also a movie.
[17:25] #knownspace> Geo: Must have grinned and zipped onward! That didn't stick with me like the joker in Flatlander.
[17:25] #knownspace> SolBelter: sorry for my numb fingers - cant touchtype, so i look at keys, not screen
[17:26] #knownspace> Geo: I always look at screen, then I cuss the fingers for the typos!
[17:26] #knownspace> Lensman: There is also a reference in "ARM" to inertialessness as it's (fictionally) portrayed in "The Gray Lensman" holowall show.
[17:26] #knownspace> SolBelter: lots of corners of known space remain for people to explore
[17:26] #knownspace> SolBelter: like bandersnatch hunting and bandersnatch POV
[17:27] #knownspace> SolBelter: and where Institute of Kn owledge discovered boosterspice
[17:27] #knownspace> Lensman: But if I had it to do over again, I think I'd choose "Belter" as my onscreen ID. "Do not suffer fools gladly"... yup, that's me!
[17:27] #knownspace> SolBelter: what intrigues arose from.during THAT process???
[17:27] #knownspace> Geo: Me too, Lens.
[17:27] #knownspace> Lensman: "Donovan's Brain" was a story about a brain-in-a-jar.
[17:29] #knownspace> SolBelter: one guys girl worked at "Donovan's Brains, Inc" in a LarrtTale
[17:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Well of course I *could* change it, but by now everybody knows me as Lensman, so I don't plan to change.
[17:29] #knownspace> Geo: Larry, are there any odd story references that NOBODY got, or that took a loooong time?
[17:29] #knownspace> dmac44: SB: It seems that boosterspice may be related to Tree-of-life.
[17:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Not just on the LarryNiven forum, but everywhere on the Internet.
[17:30] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Yes, the implication is that boosterspice is derived from tree of life.
[17:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, RC has Louis wondering if Boosterspice was developed from the TOL left in Phssthpok's life pod which crashed on Mars. It certainly makes sense!
[17:30] #knownspace> SolBelter: But if our visualization of thecosmic all were complete enough, we'd still know it was u,Lens
[17:31] #knownspace> Geo: Tanj, and there I've wasted resources on ragweed research!
[17:31] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! Very good SB, you get the Starkly Coruscating award for the month!
[17:31] #knownspace> Larry: References: "The Burning City" is jammed with scrambled-letter names, all Lordkin. The hardest is Wess. (Sews. She's a seamstress.) But look at "Freethspat".
[17:32] #knownspace> Lensman: I flunked anagramology, badly.
[17:32] #knownspace> Geo: Em oto.
[17:32] #knownspace> SolBelter: same here, bujt now i'll ujse a net anagramer to decode
[17:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, fortunately the 'net makes it easy to solve anagrams. But only when I think to look for them, which it never did when reading BURNING CITY. I had to read the Wiki article to get the references.
[17:33] #knownspace> Geo: Rasp . . .teeth . . ?
[17:34] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Hehe, found the best anagram for my real name. Archmage Liche Muchly
[17:34] #knownspace> Geo: Whooooa.
[17:34] #knownspace> SolBelter: nice one
[17:34] #knownspace> Lensman: An archmage *and* a lich! Run for your lives!
[17:35] #knownspace> SolBelter: lechers, flee!
[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: I didn't even know you could do italics here!
[17:35] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: tis an emote "/me"
[17:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Freethspat = stepfather?
[17:38] #knownspace> Lensman: I confess I cheated.
[17:38] #knownspace> Larry: Yes, Lensman.
[17:39] #knownspace> Lensman: SB: Yes, that's right, there are *two* references to Donovan's Brain.
[17:39] #knownspace> SolBelter: yep - Becalmed in Hell?
[17:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Two references in Known Space stories.
[17:39] #knownspace> Lensman: No, "The Coldest Place" is the other.
[17:40] #knownspace> Lensman: But you were close!
[17:40] #knownspace> SolBelter: ah
[17:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Wait one... No, I think you were right.
[17:40] #knownspace> Lensman: In fact, I'm sure of it. My bad.
[17:41] #knownspace> SolBelter: *I* used my Donovan's Brain, snicker
[17:41] #knownspace> Lensman: I get those two stories confused. :(
[17:41] #knownspace> SolBelter: Eric, trying to relight engine in Venus clouds
[17:42] #knownspace> Lensman: You have a brain in a jar? Gee whilikers, kin I have one too, huh?
[17:42] #knownspace> SolBelter: i knew those 2 characters had 2 stories, wasn't sure which one
[17:43] #knownspace> SolBelter: sure! Borrow Svetz's time machine...
[17:43] #knownspace> Geo: Those two stories remind me of Asimov's robot tales, somehow.
[17:45] #knownspace> Geo: Stories . . . Larry, are there any story ideas from way back when (or whenever) that just never jelled? What have we missed that an alternate Earth got? :-)
[17:45] #knownspace> SolBelter: Geo - perhaps because a human and a robot or machine entity puzzling out a behavior porblem?
[17:45] #knownspace> Geo: Yeah.
[17:46] #knownspace> SolBelter: We didnt get "All the Myriad Ways" trilogy, for one example
[17:46] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry, did you see the article about the structure of high temp superconductors a couple of months ago? Their structure is fractal, Like your superconductor shrever shield in The Woman in Del Rey Crater.
[17:47] #knownspace> Lensman: I can remember the stories just fine, but I forget which title belongs to which story.
[17:47] #knownspace> Geo: SB: You didn't? I thought book three was great! >:-)
[17:48] #knownspace> SolBelter: Geo, next you'll say that Buzz Aldrin didnt trip Armstrong and exit first on Luna!
[17:48] #knownspace> Geo: Sure he did - the Russians were waiting, and got film of it!
[17:49] #knownspace> SolBelter: Heinlein at one point listed six alts of his characters' histories, each with a different lunar landing
[17:50] #knownspace> Lensman: And then there's that strange alternate world where Kenned the First was assassinated.
[17:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Kennedy the First.
[17:51] #knownspace> Geo: I can't talk about that mission to Houston.
[17:51] #knownspace> SolBelter: I have severe prosopagnosia - unable to recognize faces, but i was puzzled most others couldn't recall all authors and titles
[17:52] #knownspace> SolBelter: differing wiring
[17:52] #knownspace> Geo: I'm just gettin' older - need a gentle reminder now and then!
[17:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Different wiring, indeed.
[17:53] #knownspace> SolBelter: sure, Geo, but these were teens to twenties readers in my shop
[17:53] #knownspace> Geo: Oh. The tech gen - short attention span?
[17:54] #knownspace> Geo: There is an alarming dearth of reading going on with the young these days . . .
[17:54] #knownspace> Lensman: I remember the plots of stories best. Better than the names of stories, and it's unusual for me to remember a character name unless it's especially memorable or I've read the story multiple times.
[17:55] #knownspace> SolBelter: true, but iphones and iPads helping encourage some kids to red more
[17:55] #knownspace> Geo: If u cll tht reeding
[17:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Or "text" more... which IMHO is a poor substitute for *talking* to someone.
[17:55] #knownspace> Geo: Yep - much info, no content.
[17:55] #knownspace> Lensman: "Oh, stewardess! I speek leet."
[17:56] #knownspace> SolBelter: my stock in trade was being able nearly half the time to ID a fav early novel/story forgotten by a reader
[17:56] #knownspace> Lensman: That would indeed be a valuable skill for someone running or working in a bookstore.
[17:56] #knownspace> Geo: You misspelled L33t. :-P
[17:57] #knownspace> Lensman: L337
[17:57] #knownspace> SolBelter: but having a non-physical book on yhou in your device, read more while waiting for bus
[17:57] #knownspace> Geo: Give them time - if they keep reading, they'll find fav authors.
[17:57] #knownspace> Geo: @Lens - crap, so do I! And it bothers me not. :-)
[17:58] #knownspace> SolBelter: Kindle ebook sales passed Amazon physical hardcover sales last month or two
[17:58] #knownspace> Geo: In my youth, I used to read by subject, then learned to read by author as well.
[17:59] #knownspace> SolBelter: "it was writtern by a guy whose last name was an AmerIndian dwelling" I didnt get that one
[17:59] #knownspace> Geo: Kindle is cheaper and instant. In a poor economy, once you get the reader, you will use it.
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[17:59] #knownspace> SolBelter: turned out to be ...James Hogan
[18:00] #knownspace> Geo: What's that from, SB?
[18:00] #knownspace> SolBelter: which taught me how readers memories can file
[18:00] #knownspace> Geo: Oh, a customer. :-)
[18:00] #knownspace> Geo: Whoops . . .
[18:01] #knownspace> Geo: LN has disintegrated.
[18:01] #knownspace> SolBelter: or he used a stepping disc
[18:02] #knownspace> Geo: The customer knew there was an Amerindian dwelling involved, but not which one? :-D
[18:03] #knownspace> SolBelter: yes Geo
[18:03] #knownspace> SolBelter: luckily he spotted Hogan while browsing
[18:04] #knownspace> Geo: Looking on Amazon for books by Tipi . . . :-)
[18:04] #knownspace> Lensman: ho·gan (hgän, -gn) /n./ A one-room Navajo structure traditionally built with the entrance facing east, used as a dwelling or for ceremonial purposes. Early hogans were made of earth-covered poles, with later models often built of logs, stones, and other materials.
[18:04] #knownspace> Geo: Would have been funny if the customer had come to you looking for books by Paul Hogan.
[18:04] #knownspace> SolBelter: one guy used to ask me story ID questions - turned out years later he was answering SF-L usegroup q's without crediting me grin
[18:05] #knownspace> Lensman: I think I once read a children's collection of Navajo folk tales which used that word, but that was a looooooooong time ago!
[18:05] #knownspace> SolBelter: true Geo!
[18:06] #knownspace> Geo: Larry may have been grabbed by the ARM - perhaps we asked too many questions about Hobo Kelly!
[18:06] #knownspace> Lensman: Bastard, pretending to be the expert based on your knowledge.
[18:07] #knownspace> Lensman: No, it was right after you started talking about that classified moon mission! Cool it next time.
[18:08] #knownspace> Geo: I deny any knowledge of whatever it is we were talking about before I said nothing of the sort!
[18:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Someone must have hacked your account, Geo. :)
[18:08] #knownspace> SolBelter: can we quote that 'on deep background'?
[18:09] #knownspace> Geo: Actually, it was after I asked about story ideas that didn't work. Hmmmm
[18:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, "No Exit" was a story idea he gave to Hank Stine because he couldn't get it to work.
[18:10] #knownspace> SolBelter: But Geo, Larry gave us a screenful of non-jelled ideas! Oh, not in your alternity...
[18:10] #knownspace> Geo: :-P
[18:11] #knownspace> Geo: Larry? Isn't this the altiverse of the great SF author David Niven?
[18:12] #knownspace> Geo: Which one is No Exit?
[18:12] #knownspace> SolBelter: no, yo thinking of the actor who became President, David Niven
[18:12] #knownspace> Lensman: In our reality, Larry discussed those in "The Lost Ideas" in PLAYGROUNDS OF THE MIND.
[18:13] #knownspace> Lensman: "No Exit" is one of those "Twilight Zone" stories where the dream-world switches places with the real world.
[18:14] #knownspace> Geo: Does it have a freeway exit that isn't there most of the time? Or was that a Stephen King story that wouldn't work?
[18:15] #knownspace> Lensman: The freeway exit to nowhere is one of the lost ideas discussed in, coincidentally, "The Lost Ideas". ;)
[18:16] #knownspace> Geo: . . .Ah. Right, then. (:-)
[18:16] #knownspace> Geo: Time to reread some things!
[18:16] #knownspace> Lensman: I was just sitting here thinking of that, because it sounds like an interesting premise. But it would only be the *start* of an idea, you'd have to follow someone to wherever it lead. Like in "For a Foggy Night".
[18:17] #knownspace> Geo: Yep. And is the exit an alien construct, or an unatural phenomenon?
[18:17] #knownspace> SolBelter: throwaway bit in the novel
[18:18] #knownspace> Geo: Sounds interesting.
[18:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah, now that might be just what's needed to make an interesting story! Someone who came to *this* world from a freeway ramp that only appears at random, and at different places. And he's trying to find it again so he can get back...
[18:20] #knownspace> Geo: And he wanders the country on that highway, searching and having odd adventures with his unworldly knowledege and/or skills.
[18:21] #knownspace> Geo: Hmmmmmmm - I like it.
[18:21] #knownspace> Geo: brb
[18:23] #knownspace> Lensman: And the story ends thusly: "He gunned the engine, but he hesitated about popping the clutch. Then, slowly, he put the car in neutral. 'What are you waiting for?' she asked. 'You've spent half your life searching for that ramp. Go now, while it has a chance!' He looked up at her through the open car window, then reached out and gently took her hand. 'Yes, I had a great deal that I cared about...
[18:23] #knownspace> Lensman: ...in that world. But what I didn't have... was someone who cared about *me*."
[18:24] #knownspace> Lensman: ...er, "...while you have the chance!"
[18:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, it's true, I am an incurable romantic.
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[18:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Nedry is peerless.
[18:28] #knownspace> Geo: back
[18:28] #knownspace> Lensman: front
[18:29] #knownspace> Geo: Bazinga!
[18:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, to return to a previous question, if I want to use a paid URL for the Incompleat Known Space Concordance, then what should the URL be? Unfortunately is taken.
[18:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Any suggestions?
[18:30] #knownspace> Geo: KSConcordance?
[19:13] Xenovalent has joined #knownspace
[19:13] CrazyEddy has joined #knownspace
[19:14] sean has joined #knownspace
[19:18] Merlin_McCarley has joined #knownspace
[19:18] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Yes, went boom indeed.
[19:19] #knownspace> sean: i was out on the porch.. no idea what happened
[19:20] #knownspace> sean: my isp is usually rock solid.
[19:21] #knownspace> sean: actually i think my cable modem or router goofed. reset both and i came back up.
[19:21] Lensman has joined #knownspace
[19:25] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Ah, home router locked on me once last week as well.
[19:26] #knownspace> sean: i knew nothing until my dog bumped the table and i saw that everybody disconnected at once
[19:27] #knownspace> sean: seemed like a good chat was going on
[19:29] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Different directions than usual, if any chat can be considered usual that is.
[19:30] #knownspace> sean: i dont think any chat can be considered usual
[19:31] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Aye, thus the disclaimer.
[19:33] #knownspace> sean: that is the first time that has happened since i have been running the chat server. closing in on 4 years
[19:34] #knownspace> sean: actually might be 6 years.
[19:37] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Hardcore, need to look into getting these folk talking on something like talkshoe.
[19:37] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: As a sideline, IRC needs to stay here of course ;)
[19:39] #knownspace> sean: tis a pretty solid server. dancer irc running on ubuntu server.
[19:40] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Same box for 6 years? Silly question of course.
[19:40] #knownspace> sean: nope... been 3 so far
[19:41] #knownspace> sean: didnt name the first box but it was a windows thing that frank gasperik asked me to fix up aabout 2 hours before the chat when the other server quit working for some reason... not mine
[19:42] #knownspace> sean: the first linux box was phsstpok... however you spell it.
[19:42] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Close enough.
[19:42] #knownspace> sean: so brennan was a good successor
[19:42] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Aye, perfect sense.
[19:43] #knownspace> sean: when i replace the current box, it will be truesdale
[19:44] #knownspace> sean: the current box is an irc server, print server, ssh server, ftp server, web server, and a couple of other things
[19:45] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Slap a SAN on it, never can have enough storage.
[19:45] #knownspace> sean: tis a 500 mhz machine with 512 of mem. no desktop and no monitor. it typically uses about .2 percent of processor
[19:46] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: No need when it is set up. Remote manage is king.
[19:46] #knownspace> sean: it has an 80 gig drive in it and i think it is running about 40 percent usage
[19:46] #knownspace> sean: i ssh about 6 different machines just in the house
[19:47] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Way to do it.
[19:49] #knownspace> sean: i have 2 windows pcs just serving files. oh.... 1 of them runs starry night so i can see where to point the scope
[19:51] #knownspace> sean: had a great view of jupiter last night with all 4 gallilean satellites in view in front of the planet. fantastic
[19:51] #knownspace> Merlin_McCarley: Bit cash strapped atm or else I would have boxes running all over the house, least the areas the wife would let me run them.
[19:52] #knownspace> sean: i understand
[20:59] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL "The dog ate my server connection!"
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[21:39] #knownspace> conquerat: anything happening?
[21:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Not much!