2014-05-03 12:16:15 : <fredskue_> do I get an instruction manual?
Fred Emporer of Dune
2014-05-03 14:20:36 : <sean> nothing is usually necessary but if a newbie makes a ruckus useful command is kick
2014-05-03 14:21:05 : <sean> beer run
2014-05-03 14:22:30 : <andy> the actual command is:
2014-05-03 14:22:37 : <andy> /kick username message
2014-05-03 14:53:26 : "Dan" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 14:53:36 : "NickE" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 14:53:42 : <Dan> Morning, folks!
2014-05-03 14:53:56 : <NickE> Hi Dan!
2014-05-03 14:54:03 : <NickE> evenin all
2014-05-03 14:56:55 : <NickE> heh, just seen teh topic
2014-05-03 14:57:05 : "Hippy" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 14:57:34 : <NickE> hey
2014-05-03 14:57:41 : <Hippy> Afternoon, everyone (except Nick)
2014-05-03 14:57:50 : <Hippy> Evening, Nick
2014-05-03 14:57:51 : <Dan> LOL!
2014-05-03 14:57:52 : <NickE> heh
2014-05-03 14:58:06 : <NickE> at least its a nice evening
2014-05-03 14:58:25 : <Hippy> Yes, it must be starting to warm up there. Rainy and humid here
2014-05-03 14:59:05 : <Dan> We're having a nice sunny day today. Been rather rainy all week, but today is OK.
2014-05-03 14:59:18 : <NickE> simmla
2014-05-03 14:59:23 : <NickE> similar here
has to shamefully admit that he hasn't yet read 'Shipstar'
2014-05-03 14:59:56 : <NickE> mines on order
2014-05-03 15:00:00 : <fredskue_> WELCOME TO NOON ARIZONA TIME AND THE MAY LARRY NIVEN CHAT
2014-05-03 15:00:06 : <NickE> didn't even know it was out
2014-05-03 15:00:15 : <Hippy> Then I have to annoyedly admit that I can't put a bet on the Kentucky Derby. It's anout rage!
2014-05-03 15:00:37 : <Hippy> Is that what this is? Thanks, Fred
2014-05-03 15:01:25 : <NickE> hi Fred#
2014-05-03 15:05:01 : <Hippy> So, what's been happening over April? I had intended to come up to Georgia but the ol' eyeball has started to play up and that gave me pause
2014-05-03 15:05:27 : <NickE> Dan's about to be published
2014-05-03 15:05:39 : <Hippy> Yay, Dan!
2014-05-03 15:05:51 : <Hippy> Will there be a Kindle edition?
2014-05-03 15:06:16 : <Dan> I've been working Day-time-only at the factory, and building an awning over the concrete pad we used to use to set up our old above-ground pool.
2014-05-03 15:07:13 : <Dan> And oh yea, I'll be turning in the manuscript for a Mare Inebrium short story collection sometime next week.
2014-05-03 15:07:16 : <Dan> :)
2014-05-03 15:07:30 : <Hippy> Awesome!
2014-05-03 15:07:51 : <Hippy> I must really finish my Mare Inebrium thing one of these days
2014-05-03 15:07:52 : <Dan> As far as I know, there should be several varieties of e-book editions, as well as print.
2014-05-03 15:08:10 : <Hippy> Excellent!
2014-05-03 15:08:31 : <NickE> cool
2014-05-03 15:08:49 : "Larry" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 15:08:51 : <Dan> I have two more short stories to edit, and the filksong lyrics, and I'll be done with the 1st phase of the production.
2014-05-03 15:09:01 : <Hippy> Hi, Larry!
2014-05-03 15:09:04 : <NickE> Hi Larry
2014-05-03 15:09:05 : <Dan> Hello, Larry!
2014-05-03 15:09:10 : <Hippy> Happy birthday for last Wednesday
2014-05-03 15:09:12 : <Larry> Hello all.
2014-05-03 15:09:45 : <Larry> Thanks. I shared my birthday with relatives.
2014-05-03 15:09:49 : <Hippy> How is Mrs Niven doing?
2014-05-03 15:10:01 : <Dan> Hippy, as far as I know, the book will be out next year sometime.
2014-05-03 15:10:19 : <Larry> Dan, what production? An anthology?
2014-05-03 15:10:23 : <Hippy> I'll make a note of it, Dan
2014-05-03 15:10:45 : <fredskue_> Hey Larry
2014-05-03 15:10:56 : <Larry> Marilyn is coping. Friends have been visiting, and I've been there every day.
2014-05-03 15:10:57 : <Dan> Yes,Larry. My spaceport bar series has been sold to a small press publisher.
2014-05-03 15:11:11 : <Larry> Cool, Dan.
2014-05-03 15:11:18 : <Dan> Thank you, Sir!
2014-05-03 15:11:52 : <Larry> other "spaceport bar" stories have been successful and entertaining.
2014-05-03 15:12:14 : <Dan> I know, I've bought editions of most of them.
2014-05-03 15:12:19 : <NickE> you dont say
2014-05-03 15:12:22 : <NickE> :-)
2014-05-03 15:12:54 : <Larry> Hah! At least we selll them to each other.
2014-05-03 15:13:00 : <Dan> LOL!
2014-05-03 15:13:28 : <NickE> guaranteed market :-)
2014-05-03 15:14:03 : <Dan> I've been writing these since 1996, putting them online in various e-zines- Mostly mine. They spawned an entire shared universe series on my own e-zine.
2014-05-03 15:14:46 : <Hippy> And that even has one of my crap things in it :)
2014-05-03 15:15:34 : <Dan> I had 9 or 10 in the series, but the series suns to over 80 stories.
2014-05-03 15:15:48 : <NickE> pretty impressive
2014-05-03 15:15:56 : <Dan> Wasn't it 2 stories of your's Hippy?
2014-05-03 15:17:01 : <Larry> the Draco Tavern series took me maybe 40 years. Of course it probably isn't finished.
2014-05-03 15:17:14 : <Hippy> No, just one. I did make a start on a Mare INebrium novel, but falsely assumed inertia would make it write itself :)
2014-05-03 15:17:17 : <NickE> glad to hear that
2014-05-03 15:17:21 : <Dan> Anyway, this collection will have 16 of my stories and a filksong. I started writing new one that no one has seen before while I was rewriting the ones that had been online.
2014-05-03 15:17:34 : <Larry> a consequence of writing mostly vignettes.
2014-05-03 15:17:40 : <Dan> new ones, rather.
2014-05-03 15:18:20 : <Hippy> The philosophical question that could sustain a Draco Tavern novel would be something to see
2014-05-03 15:18:52 : <NickE> sorry - got to go afk for a bit
2014-05-03 15:19:08 : <Dan> I had an alien solar system just sitting there, and decided to relocate my spaceport bar for the Mooon to that alien system.
2014-05-03 15:19:10 : <Larry> yes. "Folk Tale" was as big as I got: not very.
2014-05-03 15:20:10 : <Hippy> God walks into the DT and asks Rick Schumann to prove He exists. A whole lot of aliens start arguing...
2014-05-03 15:20:56 : <Larry> Wow! Maybe I can get something out of that, Hippy.
2014-05-03 15:21:27 : <Dan> Good one, Hippy!
2014-05-03 15:21:28 : <andy> Twenty minutes later, Odin wanders in looking for a tankard of ale...
2014-05-03 15:21:36 : <Hippy> The chrips did hear of that race that proved an afterlife, so that race's opinion might count
2014-05-03 15:22:11 : <Larry> Soroghod might still be visiting.
2014-05-03 15:22:17 : <Hippy> There's a lot riding on it. God's tab is staggering by the end of the evening, and if He doesn't exist, Rick has to wear it...
2014-05-03 15:22:52 : <Larry> a blessing might pay that tab.
2014-05-03 15:23:05 : <Hippy> If God turns out to be a con man (or con alien) that's pulled this stunt before
2014-05-03 15:24:03 : <Hippy> That would work if one of the aliens notices a change in Rick, that Rick can't detect and the alien won't talk about...but then we could be treading on 'The Fourth Profession'
2014-05-03 15:24:35 : <Dan> Which is one of my favorite of Larry's stories.
2014-05-03 15:24:53 : "Lensman" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 15:25:03 : <Dan> Hello, Lens!
2014-05-03 15:25:05 : <Lensman> Hi fen!
2014-05-03 15:25:08 : <Hippy> Hi, Lens
2014-05-03 15:25:09 : <Lensman> Hi Larry!
2014-05-03 15:25:32 : <Lensman> Tanj, I wasn't watching the clock.
2014-05-03 15:25:44 : <Larry> maybe just the voice of God. And it turns out to be oneof the translator machines.
2014-05-03 15:26:04 : <Hippy> Hmmm...
2014-05-03 15:26:05 : <Larry> hi, Lens.
2014-05-03 15:26:24 : <Dan> Go for it, Larry! You might just enjoy writing it!
2014-05-03 15:26:36 : <Lensman> When did Fred get promoted to Emperor?
2014-05-03 15:26:41 : <Hippy> How 'deus ex machina' of it :)
2014-05-03 15:27:07 : <Hippy> When the previous Emperor went to a Kentucky Derby party
2014-05-03 15:27:23 : "gofffan" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 15:27:27 : <Lensman> I, for one, welcome our new FX artist overlord.
2014-05-03 15:27:30 : <Hippy> Hi, gofffan
2014-05-03 15:27:35 : <gofffan> Hey Hippy
2014-05-03 15:27:35 : <Dan> Hiya, goffan!
2014-05-03 15:27:40 : <gofffan> Dan!
2014-05-03 15:28:29 : <Hippy> So, the voice of God starts making all these commandments - telling the glig to give up cloning, telling the chirps to set their menfolk free, telling...etc
2014-05-03 15:28:34 : <Dan> Well, I finished my coffee hours ago. I really need to make a beer run. I'll be back in about 10 minutes or so...
2014-05-03 15:28:46 : "Jim" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 15:28:53 : <Hippy> Hi, Jim!
2014-05-03 15:28:58 : <fredskue_> greetings Jim
2014-05-03 15:29:03 : <Jim> hi
2014-05-03 15:29:05 : <gofffan> Hey Jom
2014-05-03 15:29:09 : <gofffan> Jim
2014-05-03 15:29:12 : <Hippy> Ten minutes for a beer run? The voice of God talks about Paradise
2014-05-03 15:29:13 : <fredskue_> gofffan! You got the memo!
2014-05-03 15:29:31 : <gofffan> I got work - but will stay on as much as possible
2014-05-03 15:29:37 : <Dan> It's only 2 miles away.
2014-05-03 15:30:12 : <Hippy> See? Paradise
2014-05-03 15:30:36 : <fredskue_> I can't imagine going 2 miles for a beer
2014-05-03 15:30:46 : <fredskue_> Circle Ks in every direction
2014-05-03 15:31:04 : <gofffan> I don't think he's buying one bottle
2014-05-03 15:31:36 : <Jim> 10 miles to civilization here
2014-05-03 15:31:50 : <fredskue_> hmm, not sure how far it is to Liquor Barn
2014-05-03 15:31:53 : "dmac" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 15:31:57 : <Lensman> So, for those of us who came in late... why would the Chirps, or any advanced technological race, believe a voice coming from a translator machine is the voice of Ghod? Or FooFoo, the Great Spider, or any other deity?
2014-05-03 15:31:58 : <Hippy> 1.5 miles for me, but I have to walk it :(
2014-05-03 15:31:59 : <fredskue_> if I intended to consume mass quantities
2014-05-03 15:32:02 : <dmac> Hi guys.
2014-05-03 15:32:11 : <fredskue_> Hey dmac
2014-05-03 15:32:33 : <gofffan> Dmac!
2014-05-03 15:32:49 : <Larry> I'd guess the Chirps are sitting this one out, for the amusement value.
2014-05-03 15:32:56 : <Hippy> I would say because the voice compels them to believe it, Lens, but it was Larry's idea that the Voice was the translators
2014-05-03 15:33:03 : <Hippy> translator's
2014-05-03 15:33:22 : <Hippy> Oops. Hi, dmac
2014-05-03 15:33:34 : <Lensman> Okay, so how did this discussion get started? What was the original idea?
2014-05-03 15:34:05 : <Hippy> That God turnes up at the DT and asks Rick to prove He exists, and the patrons start arguing
2014-05-03 15:34:41 : <gofffan> If he
2014-05-03 15:34:48 : <gofffan> 's at a bar, he'd have I.D.
2014-05-03 15:35:05 : <Hippy> The chirps might also want answers to the question and set up the whole thing to see what the other aliens do
2014-05-03 15:35:29 : <Hippy> You raise a good point, gofffan
2014-05-03 15:36:01 : <Lensman> Ah, thanks Hippy. Well, the Chirps apparently have a standard response to religious arguments. Wasn't that the very first DT story?
2014-05-03 15:36:22 : <Hippy> If it's photo ID, Rick is vouchsafed a view of the ineffable, as they say, and might be changed
2014-05-03 15:36:35 : <Lensman> <Lensman peeks at his THE DRACO TAVERN> Well actually, it was more specific: It was about life after death.
2014-05-03 15:36:36 : <Larry> Rick wouldn't wonder why the chirps aren't joining the discussion. That early story would cover it.
2014-05-03 15:36:52 : <Lensman> Larry, yah.
2014-05-03 15:37:16 : <fredskue_> I doubt it would be photo ID. I'd think we'd all be chipped by then.
2014-05-03 15:37:28 : <fredskue_> And Wesley Snipes will be cutting off our hands ...
2014-05-03 15:37:39 : <Lensman> Why does Ghod need Rick to prove he exists? ("Why does God need a starship?" --Star Trek V)
2014-05-03 15:37:52 : <Lensman> ...He exists?
2014-05-03 15:38:28 : <Hippy> That's a question in itself, Lens
2014-05-03 15:38:32 : <Jim> I thought that Wesley Snipes was in jail.
2014-05-03 15:38:50 : <dmac> The photo ID might use gravitational waves, which would make things interesting
2014-05-03 15:39:22 : <Hippy> If proof denies faith, and without fatth He is nothing, as Douglas Adams proposed (or borrowed) then it may be that He no longer wants faith
2014-05-03 15:39:41 : <andy> Jim: Nope, that was a three-year sentence that started in 2010, so he's out now.
2014-05-03 15:40:07 : <Hippy> Or He doubts his own existence, since he's just heard about solipsism from Himself
2014-05-03 15:40:53 : <Larry> Rick might find that ID deeply disturbing.
2014-05-03 15:40:54 : <Lensman> Well, why does an Omniscient Being want anything? For his own amusement? Because he actually cares about mortals? Self-imposed Duty?
2014-05-03 15:41:21 : <Lensman> Arguably, he doesn't -need- anything. If he does, then he ain't really Omniscient.
2014-05-03 15:41:22 : <Hippy> Could we even understand the motives?
2014-05-03 15:42:07 : <Lensman> Possibly not, but then that kinda ends the discussion, now doesn't it?
2014-05-03 15:42:30 : <Hippy> He can stlll be aware of everything and want something, but I concede an omnipotent being could get whatever they want. They can still want, though
2014-05-03 15:42:52 : <Larry> for a cluster of translator brains who can link up for more power, the gap between monotheism and polytheism doesn't exist. Hmm.
2014-05-03 15:42:57 : <Hippy> No, we can still theorise and wait to be disproved.
2014-05-03 15:43:01 : <Dan> Back...
2014-05-03 15:43:10 : <Lensman> The "proof makes faith irrelevant, and faith is important" meme is a good one.
2014-05-03 15:43:31 : <Hippy> A Trinity of brains?
2014-05-03 15:43:48 : <Lensman> Sure, He can still want. Just not need.
2014-05-03 15:43:59 : <Hippy> Bloody hell, Dan, that was quick
2014-05-03 15:44:08 : <fredskue_> Snipes reported to federal prison on December 9, 2010, to begin his three-year sentence, and was held at McKean Federal Correctional Institution, a federal prison in Pennsylvania. On June 6, 2011, the United States Supreme Court declined to hear Snipes' appeal. Snipes was released on April 2, 2013.
2014-05-03 15:44:15 : <Lensman> I like the way Larry thinks.
2014-05-03 15:44:26 : <Lensman> (Well, obviously...)
2014-05-03 15:44:51 : <Hippy> I knew that, Lens, thanks to my limited omniscience
2014-05-03 15:44:58 : <Lensman> LOL
2014-05-03 15:45:14 : <Lensman> By definition, omniscience can't be limited.
2014-05-03 15:45:28 : <fredskue_> Plus, you know, if you didn't like the way Larry thinks, why the TANJ would you be here?
2014-05-03 15:45:31 : <Hippy> True
2014-05-03 15:45:35 : <Dan> Yeah, I don't have to go far from the house.
2014-05-03 15:46:15 : <Hippy> Fortunately, I planned ahead, and now have beer just downstairs. Thanks to monolocatin, though, I have to go and get it. Back in a sec
2014-05-03 15:46:19 : <Lensman> Here's a question: Is it possible to actually have a truly Omniscient Being? (This has been expressed as "Can Ghod make a rock too big for him to move?"... but there's a more general question there.)
2014-05-03 15:46:59 : <fredskue_> an omniscient computer would likely shut itself down
2014-05-03 15:47:04 : <Jim> Yes
2014-05-03 15:47:08 : <Lensman> Fred: That's why I said "Well, obviously...." ...cuz I wouldn't be here otherwise!
2014-05-03 15:47:33 : <NickE> back - ooh busy
2014-05-03 15:47:40 : <Lensman> (Counter-argument: I could be a fringefan... those who like to hang out with fans without actually being one.)
2014-05-03 15:47:59 : <Jim> fringefan?
2014-05-03 15:48:10 : <andy> or someone could be here to troll Larry
2014-05-03 15:48:20 : <fredskue_> but then
2014-05-03 15:48:24 : <fredskue_> FRED WOULD SMITE YOU
2014-05-03 15:48:29 : <Lensman> My answer is: Human language doesn't deal well with infinities, and Omniscience is one example.
2014-05-03 15:48:30 : <fredskue_> to quote He-Man
2014-05-03 15:48:32 : <fredskue_> I HAVE THE POWER
2014-05-03 15:48:38 : <NickE> (will have to look back at the log - looks inneresting)
2014-05-03 15:49:16 : <fredskue_> my ex, Teela Brown, is attempting to join us but failing. Lack of Flash ...
2014-05-03 15:51:07 : <dmac> Can an omnipotent god eixist without an observer?
2014-05-03 15:51:11 : <Lensman> So, a hive mind culture would never invent monotheism? I wouldn't be so sure of that.
2014-05-03 15:51:51 : <Lensman> dmac: He would observe himself.
2014-05-03 15:52:18 : <Lensman> Dang. ...observe Himself.
2014-05-03 15:52:36 : <Dan> In any case, I should be turning in my manuscript sometime next week. Thankfully, my writing style is very different from Larry's, so no one will think that I've been stealing from him. :)
2014-05-03 15:52:50 : <Lensman> :)
2014-05-03 15:53:45 : <Larry> in my early work I did indeed try to write like the best. Poul Anderson, Jack Vance, Fritz Leiber, etc.
2014-05-03 15:53:48 : <Dan> And Larry's only bar stories at the time I began the series were 4th Profession & For a Foggy Night.
2014-05-03 15:54:16 : <Lensman> But then, established authors have been known to adopt a pseudonym to write in a different style or a different genre. How do we know that Dan... (memory fails on the last name)... isn't a pseudonym for Lawrence Van Cott Niven?
2014-05-03 15:54:18 : <Hippy> That...is along series
2014-05-03 15:54:39 : <Hippy> I havne't seen them both together
2014-05-03 15:54:55 : <Dan> Because Larry & I have been seen sitting at an autograph table together at LibertyCon.
2014-05-03 15:55:09 : <dmac> Mirrors?
2014-05-03 15:55:10 : <Lensman> Fritz Leiber? "Night on Mispec Moor"?
2014-05-03 15:55:14 : <Hippy> Not by me. Only one of you at a time...
2014-05-03 15:55:39 : <Dan> Well, we don't look much alike, either. LOL!
2014-05-03 15:55:47 : <Lensman> Tanj, I was just gonna ask if you've been seen in the same room as Larry. Too late!
2014-05-03 15:55:52 : <Larry> Maybe.
2014-05-03 15:56:36 : <Hippy> To return to the question of whether an omnipotent being can make a mountain so big He can't lift it, I know I read an academic article answering that in 1982, but have never been able to track it down. Limited omniscience again
2014-05-03 15:56:43 : <Larry> I mean maybe I was copying Fritz. By then I'd established a style.
2014-05-03 15:56:48 : <Hippy> I do beg your pardon
2014-05-03 15:57:12 : <Hippy> However, it's good to know you can italicise on this server
2014-05-03 15:57:50 : <Dan> I've tried to learn something about writing from each of my favorite authors. I was told once that some of my stories read as if Andre Norton and Keith Laumer were co-authoring them. Personally, I can almost see that.
2014-05-03 15:57:51 : <Jim> Please describe Fritz Leiber; I do not recall reading anything by him.
2014-05-03 15:58:38 : <NickE> Ill MEt in Lhankmar? Fafrd and The Grey Mouser?
2014-05-03 15:58:41 : <Jim> his writing style that is
2014-05-03 15:58:50 : <NickE> ah
2014-05-03 15:58:51 : <Hippy> Well..."I - yes, Nick got there first
2014-05-03 15:58:53 : <Dan> Fafard & the Grey Mouser series, some Conan, .
2014-05-03 15:59:34 : <Dan> I think he was one of the Lovecraft circle of writers as well, but I'm just going on memory here.
2014-05-03 15:59:35 : <Jim> Does anyone else think that the Norman conquest of England did not take place in Poul Anderson's stories?
2014-05-03 16:00:02 : <Larry> Iff starting Fritz Leiber, either get some short stories or get THE WANDERER, a big novel using Dyson Spheres and flying saucers. He's magnificent.
2014-05-03 16:00:17 : <Lensman> Bar stories? Don't forget "Intent to Deceive" (1968)
2014-05-03 16:00:34 : <Hippy> That's in a restaurant :)
2014-05-03 16:00:59 : <Hippy> Now, Jim, do you base that on the heavy Scandinavian influence in his stories?
2014-05-03 16:01:06 : <NickE> Did Far Crusade precede 1066 then (I dont recall that it did)
2014-05-03 16:01:30 : <Hippy> Nope. Um...who was on the throne? Richard I?
2014-05-03 16:01:52 : <NickE> I'd have to go look - its been many years since I read it
2014-05-03 16:01:53 : <Jim> Yes, there is much more Scandinavian influence on PA's stories than real life.
2014-05-03 16:02:14 : <Lensman> Jim: Pretty sure the Norman Conquest happened in THE HIGH CRUSADE. But I presume you're talking about Poul's largest series, the Polsetechnic League (sp?)
2014-05-03 16:02:35 : <Hippy> Yes. Much like Randall Garrett did, he alters history but somehow prserves Scandinavia intact
2014-05-03 16:02:38 : <Jim> Henry Godwinson was the unfortunate king of England at the time.
2014-05-03 16:02:42 : <NickE> High Crusade - sheesh, it *has* been a while
2014-05-03 16:03:04 : <Hippy> Harold
2014-05-03 16:03:27 : <Jim> thanks, Harry Godwinson
2014-05-03 16:03:30 : <Lensman> Larry: Well, "Mispec" is the only thing that popped into my mind re a Fritz Lieber style story. Admittedly it's not that much in his style, or at least I don't think it is. But perhaps you're speaking of stories you wrote before you were ever published?
2014-05-03 16:03:38 : <NickE> so pre 1066
2014-05-03 16:03:41 : <Hippy> You see now that Larry was right when he said that you don't need a mind to write an AH story, just a good history text
2014-05-03 16:04:35 : <Dan> I disagree somewhat there, Hippy. Oh wait, you didn't specify that it be a *good* AH story, LOL!
2014-05-03 16:04:39 : <Hippy> However, a good AH does fuflill the dictum that you don't have to be right every time, just reasonable every time
2014-05-03 16:04:55 : <Larry> no, Lens, I just meant very early stories attempted to use skills from better writers.
2014-05-03 16:05:28 : <Jim> The Battle of Hastings was fought on 14 October 1066 between ...
2014-05-03 16:05:38 : <Lensman> Restaurant, not a bar? I humbly confess to an error re Niven trivia. I shall demote myself from Lensman to Able Bodied Spaceman.
2014-05-03 16:05:48 : <Hippy> 9:45 and 11:30, Jim
2014-05-03 16:06:04 : <Hippy> Or Jim, as I beleive you prefer to be called
2014-05-03 16:06:23 : <Dan> As I see it, the trick is to find your own writing voice rather than write pastiches of the styles of writers whom you admire.
2014-05-03 16:06:23 : <Lensman> No, THE HIGH CRUSADE was definitely High Chivalry.
2014-05-03 16:06:25 : <Hippy> LOL, Lens!
2014-05-03 16:06:32 : <Lensman> :)
2014-05-03 16:06:49 : <Larry> sure, dan, but that's how you do it.
2014-05-03 16:06:56 : <Dan> I agree!
2014-05-03 16:07:04 : <Jim> Because many of the primary accounts contradict each other at times, it is impossible to provide a description of the battle that is beyond dispute. The only undisputed facts are that the fighting began at 9 am on Saturday 14 October 1066 and that the battle lasted until dusk. Sunset on the day of the battle was at 4:54 pm, with the battlefield mostly dark by 5:54 pm and in full darkness by 6:24 pm. Moonrise that night wa
2014-05-03 16:07:12 : <Hippy> Of course, Dan. Raymond Chandler said: "Analyse, then imitate."
2014-05-03 16:08:23 : <Dan> My first attempt at a novel read as if Frank Herbert were writing a Tolkien story.
2014-05-03 16:08:26 : <Dan> :)
would like to see that one
2014-05-03 16:08:49 : <Jim> me too
2014-05-03 16:09:29 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> THE HIGH CRUSADE is set in 1345.
2014-05-03 16:09:38 : <Hippy> I predict a degree of length that would give Stepehn Donaldson the heebie-jeebies
2014-05-03 16:09:52 : <Dan> I never finished it, but what exists of it is still online. I decided that maybe it would be better to start writing short stories so that I could learn to be a better writer, faster.
2014-05-03 16:10:04 : <NickE> that makes sense
2014-05-03 16:10:11 : <Hippy> URL????
2014-05-03 16:10:26 : <Dan> Um... 'Alf a mo...
2014-05-03 16:10:27 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> Frank Herbert channeling Tolkien? Sounds very confused...
2014-05-03 16:11:08 : <Dan> http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/mystories/threat.htm
2014-05-03 16:11:10 : <NickE> date for High Crusade seems about right (from what I recall - it was certainly high chivalry) Of course, he could have been mixing it up
2014-05-03 16:11:19 : <NickE> to make it more interesting
2014-05-03 16:11:33 : <Hippy> Much obliged, Dan
Fred Emporer of Middle Dune
2014-05-03 16:11:45 : <NickE> he
2014-05-03 16:11:49 : <Dan> I've been using the world-building I did for that novel for many other things.
2014-05-03 16:12:04 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> "Grendel" has a bar scene. So does RINGWORLD. Private bar, inside someone's home/camp. But neither is an early story.
2014-05-03 16:12:09 : <Hippy> I don't know where you find the time, Dan
2014-05-03 16:12:11 : <Larry> Poul would have stuck to the facts to make it more interesting.
2014-05-03 16:12:47 : <NickE> that too makes sense :-)
2014-05-03 16:12:47 : <Hippy> Yes, he was excellent at that
2014-05-03 16:12:55 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> LOL @Fred
2014-05-03 16:13:11 : <Dan> Hippy, I started that one back when a "Home Computer" meant a TRS-80! The first draft of thew outline was done on a typewriter.
2014-05-03 16:13:42 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> But to drag the conversation back a bit... why would you think Anderson writes as if the Norman Conquest never happened?
still has some stuff handwritten, so there
2014-05-03 16:14:02 : <dmac> lol
2014-05-03 16:14:34 : <Larry> going for provisions. Back soon.
2014-05-03 16:14:34 : <Jim> I was not really being serious, but there is a definite Scandinavian feel to his stories.
2014-05-03 16:14:40 : <Hippy> I had a slight hiatus because my stone chisel broke
2014-05-03 16:14:46 : <NickE> :-)
2014-05-03 16:15:34 : <Dan> Happy lunchtime, Larry!
2014-05-03 16:15:47 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> Chisels? You had CHISELS! We had to make do with sharp bits of flint to carve our stone tablets! These young whippersnappers...
2014-05-03 16:16:03 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> Bye Larry.
2014-05-03 16:16:06 : <Hippy> LOL, AB
2014-05-03 16:16:36 : <Dan> You had stone tablets? Luxury! We had to use mud, or carve into trees!
2014-05-03 16:16:52 : <Dan> :)
2014-05-03 16:16:56 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> Hippy: No, no, your response is... Oh, Dan got there.
2014-05-03 16:17:36 : <Dan> I enjoy both versions of that skit that I've seen.
2014-05-03 16:17:50 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> But the proper response is "Stone tablets? You lucky sod! We had to use lava! And let me tell you, it's not easy to get the letters to stay in molten lava...
2014-05-03 16:19:47 : <Larry> i'm baaack
2014-05-03 16:19:50 : <fredskue_> There's probably an on-topic INFERNO reply as to cuneiform
2014-05-03 16:19:53 : "SolBelter_Spike" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 16:19:55 : <fredskue_> Hey Larry
2014-05-03 16:20:00 : <fredskue_> You get something good to eat?
2014-05-03 16:20:03 : <Dan> I sometimes wish I'd started writing earlier than I did. But then I'd have missed out on the garage band part of my youth.
2014-05-03 16:20:11 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> Jim: Yes, Anderson definitely had a Scandinavian feel to his stories. Was he raised in Scandinavia?
2014-05-03 16:20:21 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> AFK
2014-05-03 16:20:27 : <Larry> I've got hummos and Fritos.
2014-05-03 16:21:01 : <fredskue_> I'm so tempted to get that Subway sandwich that they dump Fritos on top of
2014-05-03 16:21:09 : <SolBelter_Spike> hello everyone. Lol at Dan - u never know about alternate outcomes ...
2014-05-03 16:21:23 : <fredskue_> but it violates pretty much every provision of my various diets
2014-05-03 16:21:57 : <Dan> Well, it came in handy over the past year. Not only have I sold a book, but I've got three albums out, LOL!
2014-05-03 16:22:12 : <Dan> Not than anyone is buying them, :)
2014-05-03 16:22:47 : <Jim> PA's family lived in Denmark for a brief time before WWII.
2014-05-03 16:23:04 : <Dan> The 3rd one is basically a soundtrack for Stephanie Osborn's "Displaced Detective" series of novels.
2014-05-03 16:23:12 : <SolBelter_Spike> 'Not yet' is the phrase u want, Dan. :)
2014-05-03 16:23:45 : <Dan> :)
2014-05-03 16:24:03 : <SolBelter_Spike> And Anderson was raised in US midwest, maybe Minnesota?
2014-05-03 16:25:25 : <SolBelter_Spike> He novelized a Norse saga
2014-05-03 16:26:37 : <Dan> After my spaceport bar manuscript is out of the way, I'll be co-writing the 4th book of the "Cresparian Saga" series with Stephanie. She wanted to gift the series to me, but it isn't really my style of thing. She was pretty much gifted it, herself.
2014-05-03 16:27:51 : <Dan> Once that's done, I want to get back to my steampunk novel.
2014-05-03 16:27:57 : <Jim> Yes, PA was raised on a Minnesota farm.
2014-05-03 16:28:32 : <Hippy> I thought he was a Danish native
2014-05-03 16:28:36 : <SolBelter_Spike> Thanks, Jim.
2014-05-03 16:28:44 : <Hippy> So, once again, reality offends me
2014-05-03 16:29:11 : <Jim> PA was a second generation Danish-American.
2014-05-03 16:29:12 : <Hippy> I'm storing all this up, universe, so just get ready...
2014-05-03 16:29:29 : <NickE> oh reality is over rated
2014-05-03 16:29:44 : <Hippy> Mine bloody is
2014-05-03 16:29:59 : <NickE> heh
2014-05-03 16:30:00 : <SolBelter_Spike> Poul took pride in his heritage, and was a SCA knight
2014-05-03 16:30:15 : <Dan> Reality is for people who can't handle SF&F. :)
2014-05-03 16:30:22 : <Larry> I'd love to rewrite reality a little...but too much power would cloy.
2014-05-03 16:30:42 : <Hippy> Only at first, Larry
2014-05-03 16:30:51 : <Hippy> You could fix that
2014-05-03 16:31:13 : <SolBelter_Spike> No problem, Larry - re-edit your mind to want that. :))
2014-05-03 16:31:29 : <Larry> oooh
2014-05-03 16:32:06 : <SolBelter_Spike> nods at Hippy, laughing
2014-05-03 16:32:31 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> I'm back too. With spaghetti.
2014-05-03 16:32:33 : <Larry> the ability to rewrite characters' minds makes for very difficult fiction.
2014-05-03 16:32:54 : <fredskue_> so we noticed
2014-05-03 16:32:59 : <Dan> That's actually my theory of alternate timelines- For which I devoured Larry's story "All The Myraid Ways," as well as others by other writers.
2014-05-03 16:33:11 : <fredskue_> BTW, Public Service Reminder, today is FREE COMIC BOOK DAY
2014-05-03 16:33:23 : <Hippy> The discipline is in staying true to your initial premise, though. Undisciplined writers ignore that - but disciplined readers notice
2014-05-03 16:33:28 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> Yeah, Anderson wrote THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS (I hope that's right.) If he wasn't raised in the culture, he certainly took a deep interest in it.
2014-05-03 16:33:29 : <fredskue_> Many libraries are participating as well
2014-05-03 16:34:08 : <SolBelter_Spike> Yes, ABS.
2014-05-03 16:34:14 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> "Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat."
2014-05-03 16:35:21 : <Hippy> There's a T-shirt in that, AB
2014-05-03 16:35:26 : <NickE> Got my free comics already (limited to over here these days)
2014-05-03 16:35:37 : <NickE> limeited to 3
2014-05-03 16:36:12 : <Hippy> I do think comic books have been oppressed too long...but I don't want them living in my neighbourhood
2014-05-03 16:36:19 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> The ability to re-write characters' minds would indeed be rather too much Deux Ex Machina.
AFK for beer
2014-05-03 16:37:26 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> Would you let your sister marry a comic book?
2014-05-03 16:37:39 : <fredskue_> Not a DC
2014-05-03 16:38:11 : <Landon> :O
2014-05-03 16:38:35 : <SolBelter_Spike> Certainly not! Well, maybe marry a graphic novel...
2014-05-03 16:38:48 : <Landon> I think my wife has already married Fables :(
2014-05-03 16:39:08 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> So, are those Marvel/DC crossovers miscegenations?
2014-05-03 16:39:13 : <fredskue_> You know what Larry says the difference is between a comic book and a graphic novel?
2014-05-03 16:39:37 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> Sol: Elitist snob.
2014-05-03 16:39:48 : <fredskue_> you can't read a graphic novel in the bathtub
2014-05-03 16:40:12 : <Dan> LOL!
2014-05-03 16:40:35 : <Landon> hah
2014-05-03 16:41:08 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> I was gonna say "About 64 pages", but Larry's answer is better.
2014-05-03 16:41:25 : <Larry> actually, it's "You can't read a graphic novel in the sauna. The glue melts. Staples don't."
2014-05-03 16:41:37 : <Dan> :)
2014-05-03 16:41:52 : <Able-Bodied-Spac> :)
2014-05-03 16:42:11 : <fredskue_> hoist on my own Picard!
2014-05-03 16:44:16 : <Lensman> Wikipedia says: "Poul Anderson was born on November 25, 1926, in Bristol, Pennsylvania, of Scandinavian parents. Shortly after his birth, his father, Anton Anderson, an engineer, moved the family to Texas, where they lived for over ten years. Following Anton Anderson's death, his widow took her children to Denmark. The family returned to the United States after the outbreak of World War II, settling eventually on a Minnesota farm."
2014-05-03 16:44:50 : <Dan> I've got a real-world problem that's been driving me bonkers for the past month. I'm building an awning on my patio to put the BBQ grills under, and I can't figure out how to roof it without spending bucketloads of money. Or making it a fire hazard. Every design I've thought of turns out to cost double what I want to spend, or be flamable. LOL!
2014-05-03 16:45:03 : <Lensman> So... only about 3 years in Denmark as a kid?
2014-05-03 16:45:55 : <Lensman> Dan: Have you looked at corrougated fiberglass panels?
2014-05-03 16:46:41 : <Dan> I have, but the head-room is such that they'd be heat-stressed whenever I lit all three grills.
2014-05-03 16:47:14 : <Hippy> Have you considered open air and just letting people take their chances?
2014-05-03 16:47:28 : <Hippy> Can you get an employee discount???
2014-05-03 16:48:03 : <Dan> I have, but I kind of wanted to be able to stand out in the rain and cook if a storm came up after I'd lit the grill. LOL!
2014-05-03 16:48:25 : <fredskue_> "Spy Plane Fries Air Traffic Control Computers, Shuts Down LAX" - NBC News
2014-05-03 16:48:30 : <Hippy> Never underestimate the power of apology, Dan
2014-05-03 16:50:03 : <Dan> I think the only way to make it work is to just bite the bullet and make the whole roof out of metal. call it 5 sheets of 8'x26" roofing.
2014-05-03 16:50:25 : <fredskue_> Gibbs Rule #6: Never apologize â€” Its a sign of weakness.
2014-05-03 16:50:33 : <Hippy> That would get mighty hot in summer
2014-05-03 16:50:40 : <fredskue_> summer hell
2014-05-03 16:50:53 : <Dan> It would indeed, but it wouldn't catch fire.
2014-05-03 16:50:54 : <fredskue_> if the BBQs are gonna burst non metal into flame
2014-05-03 16:51:10 : <Dan> or melt.
2014-05-03 16:51:17 : <fredskue_> what about leaves that land on it?
2014-05-03 16:51:21 : <fredskue_> or small animals?
2014-05-03 16:51:26 : <fredskue_> or tall people?
2014-05-03 16:51:37 : <Hippy> I would've thought fibreglass - this is wha we talk about with our favourite author - would stand up to it
2014-05-03 16:51:40 : <fredskue_> what about grilling in a sauna
2014-05-03 16:51:42 : <Dan> Tall people might be a problem, LOL!
2014-05-03 16:51:51 : <fredskue_> your graphic novels will come apart
2014-05-03 16:51:57 : <Dan> LOL!
2014-05-03 16:52:24 : <Hippy> I was looking forward to a nice barbecued 'Dune' with pictures, too. Num, num, num
2014-05-03 16:52:36 : <NickE> heh
2014-05-03 16:53:58 : <Lensman> Dan: "Corrugated fiberglass is not only extremely lightweight but they are non-absorbent and fire resistant.Phase-2 is Factory Mutual Research Approved, and has a non-combustible flame spread of twelve, as well as on resistance to a wide range of chemicals." Dan, perhaps you should call your local fire department and ask if it's safe to use fiberglass panels for an awning above a grill.
2014-05-03 16:54:00 : <Hippy> FG it all around except for above the barbecue. Unless the barbecue is the size of an aboveground pool or something. You Americans and your barbeques...
2014-05-03 16:55:01 : <Dan> My first paperback copy of Dune is now living in a zip-lock baggie. I had to buy another one to keep from losing pages. Looks like my autographed "Mote In God's Eye" paperback will be the next one to have to live in a baggie.
2014-05-03 16:56:29 : <fredskue_> my Whitfield 'making of star trek' is falling apart, which may lead me to OCR scanning it
2014-05-03 16:56:38 : <fredskue_> I can't believe nobody's done that yet
2014-05-03 16:56:45 : <Dan> Well, THANK YOU! I'll look into locating FG panels. If they aren't in any of the building supply stores nearby, I can always online-order some.
2014-05-03 16:56:55 : <Hippy> Ah, yes. Nick and I may fondly recall New English Library editions, with a half-lif of around two years. My copy of Neutron Star is a bundle of pages just hanging on to...some word I meant to use
2014-05-03 16:57:26 : <Hippy> I have that, too, Fred. How would you go about OCRing it?
2014-05-03 16:57:41 : <fredskue_> put it in my scanner and push the OCR button?
2014-05-03 16:57:52 : <Lensman> Fiberglass is made of glass fibers and epoxy. The glass ain't flammable. Obviously the epoxy might be. I think the question is: What -kind- of corrougated fiberglass panels would be appropriate to use a few feet above a glass grill? Obviously something fairly fire-resistant.
2014-05-03 16:58:09 : <fredskue_> uh
2014-05-03 16:58:11 : <fredskue_> lensman
2014-05-03 16:58:26 : <fredskue_> I take it you've never seen a fiberglass car burst into flame?
2014-05-03 16:58:30 : <fredskue_> they do, you know
2014-05-03 16:58:34 : <Dan> Larry's seen my copy of Ringworld. I had to use industrial celo-tape to re-bind the cover to the pages. He didn't seem offended that I'd ready it to destruction, LOL!
2014-05-03 16:58:52 : <Lensman> I already had to get a 2nd paperback copy of MOTE. I've read it too many times!
2014-05-03 16:59:05 : <NickE> actually most of my NEL books have lasted fairly well - though yes, Neutrom Star is a bit worse for wear and my Orbit paperback of Ringwotld has been retired for later reading copies
2014-05-03 16:59:08 : <Dan> Charcoal grill. Propane is too expensive here.
2014-05-03 16:59:15 : <fredskue_> http://0.tqn.com/d/corvettes/1/0/S/7/-/-/flameout.jpg
2014-05-03 16:59:16 : <Hippy> Ah. I was hoping you had a solution to the question of how to avoid breaking the spine by flattening the book. I know there are photocopiers around with 'angled' glass so you don't eed to press the book flat and damage it, and I was hoping there was an OCR scanner out that had the same feature, but I've never been able to find one
2014-05-03 16:59:29 : <fredskue_> Oh, no, the point was
2014-05-03 16:59:36 : <fredskue_> the pages are falling out anyway :)
2014-05-03 16:59:56 : <Lensman> Fred: Re fiberglass: Re-read what I posted. I don't disagree with you at all.
2014-05-03 17:00:01 : <NickE> ah well that'd do it
2014-05-03 17:00:02 : <fredskue_> if I'm going to end up with a loose leaf book, maybe the scanner it's it's first best destiny
2014-05-03 17:01:16 : <fredskue_> the epoxy is flammable; the fibers are merely carcinogenic
2014-05-03 17:02:14 : <Hippy> Yes, I think my Sphere edition of Ringworld is better left boxed up
2014-05-03 17:02:24 : <Lensman> Hippy: You could use a hand-held scanner. The problem with those is that usually they're not wide enough to scan a page in one pass, so you have to have a program which will assemble a scan from strips.
2014-05-03 17:02:36 : <Dan> I've seen fiberglass in a fire before. Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to catch fire, but it does seem to evaporate, LOL!
2014-05-03 17:02:49 : <SolBelter_Spike> I allowed three of my pbs to be bought and sliced/disassembled into individual pages - brrr... But it was so Gregg Press could photocopy them and reprint them.
2014-05-03 17:03:13 : <fredskue_> is the sphere edition the classic cover with the gravity going the wrong way?
2014-05-03 17:03:45 : <Hippy> I did watch an ep of 'This Week In Tech' and John Dvorak meantioned a phone that would be an ideal scanner. Just photograph two pages at a time. Of course, I don't know the name of it :(
2014-05-03 17:04:06 : <fredskue_> ah, no, this one
2014-05-03 17:04:08 : <fredskue_> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3431/3853915785_b7a581d4d8_b.jpg
2014-05-03 17:04:38 : <fredskue_> sigh; gravity goes the wrong way there TOO
2014-05-03 17:04:44 : <fredskue_> I didn't realize two different covers did that
2014-05-03 17:04:51 : <NickE> ah Sphere - thats teh one. I;ve got 2 now
2014-05-03 17:05:03 : <Hippy> Spike, that is the good thing about e-books. Stuff is being 'reprinted' that formerly only avademics could see
2014-05-03 17:05:50 : <NickE> one readable and one barley hanging on :-) ANd another edition that also been rad a bit
2014-05-03 17:05:50 : <Hippy> I had a friend who vinyl-covered a lot of my Nivens, so now the covers are the strongest part
2014-05-03 17:05:53 : <Lensman> Obviously epoxy is highly flammable before it dries. Also obviously, different epoxies have different degrees of flammability after they dry. I'm not at all surprise that fiberglass used in car bodies isn't especially flammable. But there is a difference between fire -resistant- and fire -proof-. The heat on an awning above a gas grill shouldn't get hotter than, say, 300 degrees or so? As opposed to a car fire, which will burn much ho
2014-05-03 17:06:16 : <Lensman> Wow, that was almost incomprehensible
2014-05-03 17:06:34 : <fredskue_> but at least it was truncated
2014-05-03 17:06:45 : <Lensman> I mean, I'm not surprised that the fiberglass in car bodies is not especially fire-resistant.
2014-05-03 17:06:56 : <fredskue_> ahhhh
2014-05-03 17:07:07 : <Hippy> Surely, Lens, you could build Dan a wooden roof for his awning?
2014-05-03 17:07:39 : <Lensman> That would be ridiculously easy. But I'm not sure wood would be appropriate, if he's worried about the fire hazard.
2014-05-03 17:08:03 : <fredskue_> he's worried about fire hazard, cost, and water runnoff
2014-05-03 17:08:05 : <Hippy> Well, there is that, but I like to see the group's skills being used :)
2014-05-03 17:08:12 : <Lensman> :)
2014-05-03 17:09:13 : <Hippy> Fred can design it, Lens can build it, and I'll show you how to write it off on your tax :)
2014-05-03 17:09:17 : <Dan> PVC and polycarbonate roofing panels are rated at roughly 150 degrees F, at least for surface contact. With 4' between the roof and the charcoal fire, I'm not sure what temp it could reach when the charcoal is first lit off. If propane weren't so bloody expensive around here, I could easily go with either PVC or poly.
2014-05-03 17:09:25 : <Lensman> Well, if it was me, I'd call my local fire department and ask for advice. But I suspect you can get corrougated fiberglass panels that are sufficiently fire resistant for a lower cost than metal panels. I could be wrong, of course. Sheet steel probably ain't that expensive.
2014-05-03 17:10:30 : <Dan> Lens, I'm 25 miles from a real Fire Department.
2014-05-03 17:10:44 : <Hippy> Fibreglass will also let the light in. You don't want to barbecue in some kind of bunker
2014-05-03 17:11:04 : <Lensman> Dan: Call them, don't drive there.
2014-05-03 17:11:10 : <Dan> LOL!
2014-05-03 17:11:35 : <Hippy> Now, all this gets back to a Niven story...um....
2014-05-03 17:11:43 : <Larry> i'm out. my inlaws are visiting my wife at the care center and I want to join them.
2014-05-03 17:11:51 : <Dan> The DT hunting story...
2014-05-03 17:11:52 : <dmac> It sounds like a thin layer of Scrith would solve all your problems.
2014-05-03 17:12:01 : <Hippy> Give her our best wishes, Larry
2014-05-03 17:12:02 : <dmac> Bye Larry.
2014-05-03 17:12:09 : <Lensman> The purpose of an awning is to keep the light -out-! Altho of course you can get translucent fiberglass panels.
2014-05-03 17:12:14 : <Jim> bye
2014-05-03 17:12:15 : <Dan> Bye, Larry!
2014-05-03 17:12:16 : "Larry" left the channel.
2014-05-03 17:12:52 : <Jim> transparent aluminum would work also
2014-05-03 17:13:03 : <Hippy> Well put, Lens. I should've said 'pergola' (if that's even a word here)
2014-05-03 17:13:16 : <Lensman> Intertron. Glassteel.
2014-05-03 17:13:21 : <Dan> I got congratulated by Larry Niven because I sold my first book. THAT'S going into the Editorial tonight!
2014-05-03 17:13:27 : <Lensman> Twing.
2014-05-03 17:13:31 : <Hippy> Some kind of Motie pressure curtain
2014-05-03 17:13:46 : <dmac> Unobtainium
2014-05-03 17:13:49 : <Lensman> For an awning, Hippy???
2014-05-03 17:13:53 : <Dan> "Pergola" is what my British wife has been calling it, LOL!
2014-05-03 17:14:11 : <Hippy> She's a class act, Dan
2014-05-03 17:14:49 : <Hippy> Lens, you have me there. Inappropiate use of technology :)
2014-05-03 17:14:54 : <Dan> Hippy, the newest issue of Aphelion should go live tomorrow night.
2014-05-03 17:15:06 : <Lensman> I confess I've never encountered the word "pergola". If that's a British word... then my Anglophile vocabulary is incomplete!
2014-05-03 17:15:19 : <Hippy> Can I download it for the Kindle?
2014-05-03 17:15:37 : <Dan> No, but you can call it up on a web browser.
2014-05-03 17:15:51 : <Hippy> Will do, Dan
2014-05-03 17:16:14 : <dmac> I've heard of it before but as an open structure.
2014-05-03 17:16:36 : <Hippy> Lens, I have to say I don't know the origin of the word. I suspect a trade name, but if Dan's wife knows it, it certainly transcends Australia
2014-05-03 17:16:37 : <Dan> Lens, "pergola" sounds Italian to me, but I'm no expert in languages.
2014-05-03 17:17:03 : <dmac> Usually in a gaden with flowering vines running over it.
2014-05-03 17:17:14 : <Lensman> Your wife is wrong... altho telling her that would be even more so. :) A pergola doesn't have a closed roof.
2014-05-03 17:17:15 : <dmac> garden]
2014-05-03 17:17:43 : <Hippy> Well, gazebo then
2014-05-03 17:18:03 : <fredskue_> I'm not sure you'd want a roof of scrith over bbq grills
2014-05-03 17:18:09 : <Dan> Properly speaking, a pergola doesn't have a solid, contiguous roof, but rather a series of closely-spaced slats. Most designs I've seen look very Chinese in actual shape.
2014-05-03 17:18:13 : <fredskue_> it would get awfully hot underneath
2014-05-03 17:18:24 : <SolBelter_Spike> 'Pergola' is a common-usage word in New England, at least, for a garden structure, whereever the orgin
2014-05-03 17:18:41 : <Hippy> It's the slats that we have in Australia
2014-05-03 17:19:11 : <Lensman> Scrith being a superconductor of heat... obviously you need to consider what it's attached to. But really, just because it's over a grill, I wouldn't think the heat would build up to more than maybe 300 F or so, at most.
2014-05-03 17:19:49 : <Landon> if it's a superconductor of heat, wouldn't that mean it just gets cooled faster by the air?
AFK for 33 F beer
2014-05-03 17:20:05 : <dmac> Just tie the Scrith through a stepping disc engine to an iceberg.
2014-05-03 17:20:24 : <Dan> What I want is a rain-proof, non-flamable, non-melting roof. As I said earlier, although I loather the idea of plain tin, that seems to be the affordable & safe answer. I'm going to HATE driving all those bloody damn nails in, though, LOL!
2014-05-03 17:20:37 : <Lensman> The scrith will radiate heat, and will be cooled by convection and conduction, just like most solids.
2014-05-03 17:21:17 : <Jim> Lensman is correct, the scrith will all be the same temperature
2014-05-03 17:21:29 : <fredskue_> yeah, but it's not a gigantic area
2014-05-03 17:21:37 : <Lensman> What the scrith will -not- do is develop "hot spots". It will be the same temperature thruout.
2014-05-03 17:21:48 : <fredskue_> and it's all being heated by multiple grills
2014-05-03 17:22:16 : <fredskue_> of course stasis field coating would probably be worse
2014-05-03 17:22:20 : <fredskue_> 100% reflective
2014-05-03 17:23:11 : <Dan> https://www.facebook.com/dan.hollifield/media_set?set=a.10203573631518276.1073741833.1139854823&type=3
2014-05-03 17:23:13 : <Lensman> Multiple grills... mabye 300 F is too optimistic. But I think they don't get hotter than, what, 500 F or so? Even directly on the grill? If it's several feet above, then it can't possibly be as hot as something directly on the grill.
2014-05-03 17:23:20 : <fredskue_> it wouldn't be hot to the touch but the air underneath would probably be nasty
2014-05-03 17:23:36 : <fredskue_> oh, you can get grills that go WAY higher than that
2014-05-03 17:23:56 : <Lensman> Yeah, if it was me, I'd want some vents in that awning. Stop hot air from building up underneath.
2014-05-03 17:24:00 : <fredskue_> steakhouses sear at 1000+
2014-05-03 17:24:49 : <Dan> I can vent the smoke VIA the tilt of the roof. I'm planning at least 3 vents that are over a foot wide in the high side of the roof angle.
2014-05-03 17:25:16 : <dmac> If you can get the roof right, change the grilling method. Use an industrial scale laser .....
2014-05-03 17:25:26 : <Dan> LOL!
2014-05-03 17:25:36 : <fredskue_> hee hee
2014-05-03 17:25:43 : <Dan> A solar-powered laser, of course.
2014-05-03 17:26:04 : <Lensman> I'm seeing 650-700 degrees in online forums. So maybe it needs to withstand 500 degrees or so?
2014-05-03 17:26:22 : <fredskue_> yeah, ceramic grills, 700
2014-05-03 17:26:29 : <andy> if you're going to use a solar powered laser to grill your steaks under a gazebo-type structure, make the roof of the gazebo out of solar panels to (partially) power the laser
2014-05-03 17:26:58 : <andy> and the floor out of batteries so that you can store solar power when you're not actually grilling (that way you can grill at night, too!)
2014-05-03 17:27:02 : <fredskue_> ack
2014-05-03 17:27:08 : <fredskue_> 1800 degree broiler
2014-05-03 17:27:17 : <Lensman> Drop in the bucket. Solar energy is very weak per square meter/foot.
2014-05-03 17:27:55 : <andy> Yeah...solar power's been getting better, though.
2014-05-03 17:28:27 : <fredskue_> "grills don't get hot enough to sear properly"
2014-05-03 17:28:29 : <fredskue_> lovely
2014-05-03 17:28:35 : <SolBelter_Spike> Somewhere less than one kilowatt of energy per square meter or so at Earth's surface for solar.
2014-05-03 17:28:38 : <Lensman> I'm talking about how weak sunlight is as an energy source, not the efficiency of the solar cells.
2014-05-03 17:28:52 : <SolBelter_Spike> Exactly, Lens
2014-05-03 17:28:53 : <Dan> For a real solar-powered grill, I'd just use a plain sheet of metal roofing. I know those buggers can get hot enough to boil water on here in Georgia.
2014-05-03 17:29:12 : <fredskue_> hah, you need metal to boil water?
2014-05-03 17:29:17 : <Lensman> You'd need a good way to store electricity to power a solar grill. We don't have very good batteries, but the Puppeteers do!
2014-05-03 17:30:00 : <fredskue_> hee hee
2014-05-03 17:30:07 : <fredskue_> Ruth's Chris cooking instructions
2014-05-03 17:30:11 : <fredskue_> "very very very hot"
2014-05-03 17:30:23 : <Lensman> Well, they do make solar grills. I saw someone trying to use one on TV. Let's just say, don't hope for a very high temperature.
2014-05-03 17:30:50 : <Dan> Fred, I could set up a magnifying glass so that the focal point was almost at the bottom of a pot of water, if I so desired to make soup rather than cook steaks & chicken & burgers.
2014-05-03 17:31:05 : <fredskue_> dan, my point was, where I live
2014-05-03 17:31:12 : <fredskue_> you can just set the steak on the sidewalk
2014-05-03 17:31:19 : <fredskue_> we don't need no stinking metal
2014-05-03 17:31:37 : <andy> Fred, you're in Arizona, right?
2014-05-03 17:31:42 : <fredskue_> si
2014-05-03 17:31:47 : <Dan> That's what I was saying before. Just make a table out of a roofing panel, and lay the steaks on it.
2014-05-03 17:32:22 : <andy> so you've got really high temperatures and sun almost every day
2014-05-03 17:32:28 : <andy> most of the world doesn't have that
2014-05-03 17:32:35 : <Hippy> In Orlando, it would get stolen while it was still warm
2014-05-03 17:32:46 : <Lensman> Mind you, I'm all in favor of using solar power. I just recognize its limitations, which unfortunately, solar power advocates don't.
2014-05-03 17:33:02 : <andy> even here in Florida, I just get moderately high temperature (and rainstorms every afternoon during the summer)
2014-05-03 17:33:12 : <Jim> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_furnace
2014-05-03 17:33:56 : <Hippy> God damn it, I knew there was somewhere else I had to visit! I had forgotten Andy is in Florida
2014-05-03 17:33:59 : <Dan> A couple of years ago there was an engineer wandering around the factory with an infra-red sensor. He was getting readings of 220 degrees F from the factory roof, while standing on the floor inside the building.
2014-05-03 17:34:30 : <andy> Hippy: BTW, there's a Falcon 9 launch at Kennedy Space Center a week from today if you can over there; getting out to the viewing area is an extra $20 on top of the admission to the Visitors Center.
2014-05-03 17:35:04 : <Lensman> Dan: Metal roof?
2014-05-03 17:35:07 : <fredskue_> a friend was trying to get me to move to Lake Havasu last summer. I checked the temp and it was 128f there. That put a stop to THAT notion.
2014-05-03 17:35:11 : <Dan> Yep.
2014-05-03 17:35:52 : <Hippy> Andy, it would be as close to a Moon launch as I will ever see again. I'll look into it (dpending on diagnosis of eyeball crap on Monday)
2014-05-03 17:35:59 : <Dan> Ambient temp inside the building was 98 F that day, 102 F in the parking lot.
2014-05-03 17:36:36 : <Hippy> Good God!
2014-05-03 17:36:44 : <Lensman> My grandpa had what they call a "roundtop" on his farm. Corrougated sheets of galvanized steel, built into a half-cylinder. (Cut a cylinder in half, lay it on its flat side.) Got pretty hot in the Kansas summer sun!
2014-05-03 17:37:04 : <Hippy> Hottest I ever worked in was 33 C, and there were a few walkouts even then
2014-05-03 17:37:34 : <Lensman> It was used to store wheat after harvest, until the prices were right to sell it. You did -not- want to go into that building in the afternoon on a sunny summer day!
2014-05-03 17:37:38 : <Jim> Was it a dry heat?
2014-05-03 17:37:56 : <Lensman> Western Kansas: Yup, a pretty dry heat.
2014-05-03 17:38:15 : <Jim> Hippy, was the 33 C a dry heat?
2014-05-03 17:38:27 : <Lensman> Go SpaceX!
2014-05-03 17:38:52 : <Hippy> Nope! 800 people in an office building can generate an awful lot of moisture :)
2014-05-03 17:39:19 : <Hippy> Fortunately the PC's shut down with the aircon
Fred Emperor of Middle Dune
2014-05-03 17:40:01 : <Lensman> I've measured it at 104 F on top of a combine during harvest. And that was an old combine; no cab, no shade. I'd still rather have that than, say, 85 F here in Kansas City, which gets three times the annual rainfall.
2014-05-03 17:40:41 : <Lensman> So for me, "It's a dry heat" is no joke (except in "Aliens"!)
2014-05-03 17:41:01 : <fredskue_> We've been 100Â° and raining
2014-05-03 17:41:02 : <fredskue_> that's fun
2014-05-03 17:41:07 : <Hippy> These stats remind me of how clement Melbourne's weather really was :)
2014-05-03 17:42:16 : <Lensman> So, SpaceX is trying for a booster stage which will land on land (is that redundant?) and can be re-used. At the "cost" of losing 30% lift capacity, so the booster can retain enough fuel for a soft landing.
2014-05-03 17:42:51 : <Hippy> That makes economic sense, anyway
2014-05-03 17:42:53 : <Lensman> As a step toward re-usability, I think that's fantastic. A fully re-usable orbital vehicle should be the goal... not SSTO.
2014-05-03 17:43:25 : <andy> So multi stage to orbit, but each stage is re-usable?
2014-05-03 17:43:28 : <Lensman> SSTO is too limiting.
2014-05-03 17:44:15 : <andy> SSTO *and* re-usable would be really neat but probably isn't economically feasible.
2014-05-03 17:44:34 : <Lensman> Andy: Well, your final stage won't be re-usable, since it will stay in orbit. But the booster is the most expensive part, aside from a possibly very expensive payload.
2014-05-03 17:45:18 : <Lensman> Sure, SSTO would be really neat. But the engineering is so difficult that if you did achieve it, it would have a very very low cargo capacity.
2014-05-03 17:45:51 : <Hippy> So what if you can reuse it?
2014-05-03 17:45:52 : <Lensman> The rocket equation really does favor a multi-stage vehicle, unless you use something a lot better than mere chemical propulsion.
2014-05-03 17:46:03 : <andy> the cargo capacity compared to the overall weight of a rocket is already pretty low!
2014-05-03 17:46:05 : <Hippy> Oops. the fuel, sorry
2014-05-03 17:46:25 : <dmac> So, the limiter is the energy of the fuel?
2014-05-03 17:46:28 : <Lensman> Hippy: I don't understand your question.
2014-05-03 17:47:02 : <SolBelter_Spike> Lensman, here's my Youtube playlist of the amazing SpaceX reusable test flights https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmU1XuFLmTRUpcK939lL375sPsZMmPLQv
2014-05-03 17:47:03 : <Hippy> If it's reusable, you can defray the lift cost of the payload over many launches
2014-05-03 17:47:16 : <Lensman> dmac: The limit is what's called ISP, or the exhaust velocity of the fuel. Or at least, that's one limit. The higher the velocity, the more thrust you get from X amount of fuel.
2014-05-03 17:47:23 : <Hippy> Build you satellite in parts, but build it in orbit, for example
2014-05-03 17:48:16 : <Lensman> For a fully reusable rocket vehicle, you only pay for fuel and maintenance. SpaceX is trying to make orbital flight like running an airline. Imagine if you had to build and throw away an airliner for every flight!
2014-05-03 17:48:46 : <Hippy> Okay, if you acceleration is, say, 40 fps/s, how long does it take to reach orbital velocity?
2014-05-03 17:48:48 : <Lensman> SolBelter: Thanks!
2014-05-03 17:49:32 : <SolBelter_Spike> SpaceX should bring a near-order of mag reduction in cost of one kg to LEOrbit
2014-05-03 17:49:49 : <fredskue_> Tom Swift accelerated at 1g constantly, to give his ships artificial gravity. He got going very very very very very fast.
2014-05-03 17:50:05 : <dmac> Lens: Any way to boost the exhaust velocity of a checical rocket? Any synthgetic fuels that contain more energy?
2014-05-03 17:50:08 : <Hippy> Not to mention all the other nonsense airlines have :) Which I won't go into here
2014-05-03 17:50:22 : <Lensman> Hippy: Depends on what your mass/thrust ratio is. The greater the percentage of weight you carry as fuel, the faster you can reach orbit. For example, the Apollo/Saturn V had a 0.5% payload mass. Almost all fuel and structure.
2014-05-03 17:50:33 : <Dan> Tom Swift used reactionless thrusters, though. Repelatron Rays.
2014-05-03 17:51:14 : <Lensman> The cost of fuel has been vastly over-emphasized in discussions of cost to put something in orbit. Fuel is very cheap compared to the cost of building a booster stage.
2014-05-03 17:51:20 : <SolBelter_Spike> Solar powersats are being discussed again.
learned to read using Tom Swift novels, LOL!
2014-05-03 17:52:00 : <Hippy> Holy crap, you were (are) a good reader, Dan
2014-05-03 17:52:12 : <Hippy> I tackled them around age 11
2014-05-03 17:52:13 : <SolBelter_Spike> JAXA/Japan has a modest LEO demo planned for 5 yrs from now.
wonders if the Queensland spaceport will ever 'get off the ground'. Not with our current government, that still burns witches, but one day...
2014-05-03 17:53:24 : <Dan> I even started using e-Bay solely to buy a complete set of TSJr books to replace the ones my 1st wife burgaled & sold after I divorced her.
2014-05-03 17:53:26 : <Lensman> SolBelter: I was thinking of them just the other day. I was on a forum discussing a manned mission to Mars, and was talking up plasma/ion thrusters. Then I did a reality check... they need nuclear reactors to power them that have 2-3 orders of magnitude (!!) better power/mass ratio than anything anyone has put on a spacecraft.
2014-05-03 17:53:51 : <fredskue_> Dan, ack!
2014-05-03 17:54:08 : <Lensman> So, I was thinking... put solar panels on the Mars spacecraft; use Earth orbit solar power satellites and lasers to give power to the solar panels!
2014-05-03 17:54:09 : <Dan> I got my first Tom Swifts at roughly age 5.
2014-05-03 17:54:12 : <Hippy> Holy crap, Dan! You definitely upscaled in wives!
2014-05-03 17:54:28 : <fredskue_> Dan, the reactionlessness of repelatrons was plot dependent
2014-05-03 17:54:36 : <SolBelter_Spike> Hippy, 40 fps/s is 1.25 gee, so at least double the three gee+ Falcon 9 8 minute burn.
2014-05-03 17:54:37 : <Dan> I did, indeed Hippy.
2014-05-03 17:54:55 : <fredskue_> the first time he took off, he flattened the landing field
2014-05-03 17:54:56 : <SolBelter_Spike> to reach orbital vee.
2014-05-03 17:55:06 : <Lensman> I read every single Tom Swift, Jr. novel, back in the day. The last 3-4 were pretty hard to find. Sadly, I lost that collection. *Sob*
2014-05-03 17:55:37 : <fredskue_> argh
2014-05-03 17:55:50 : <Lensman> Altho I admit when I tried to re-read the first Tom Swift Jr, I was horrified at how much McCarthy-era politics there was in the story.
2014-05-03 17:56:02 : <Dan> The final one was pretty silly, and utterly ruined the readership of the other 32 books, Lens.
2014-05-03 17:56:06 : <fredskue_> in Flying Lab?
2014-05-03 17:56:20 : <fredskue_> Dan, yeah, people tend to disavow Galaxy Ghosts
2014-05-03 17:56:25 : <Jim> Did Tom Swift fight communists and nazis in space?
2014-05-03 17:56:29 : <fredskue_> no
2014-05-03 17:56:31 : <Hippy> SolBelter, thanks! I could never have done that calculation. Is the Falcon really that low a G-force?
2014-05-03 17:56:59 : <Lensman> dmac: The limit to chemical fuel is how hot it burns. No way to boost that. The way to go beyond that is to use nuclear energy to heat the fuel, or to use something radically different.
2014-05-03 17:57:07 : <SolBelter_Spike> i grew up on Tom Swift novels and then started in on his son's adventures (Jr), all by age 12. Good fun.
2014-05-03 17:57:21 : <fredskue_> there are 5 series now!
2014-05-03 17:57:22 : <Dan> They do indeed. I always wanted to be the writer chosen to do a Tom Swift III series, that used the first two series as canon.
2014-05-03 17:57:52 : <fredskue_> a lot of us have that dream Dan :)
2014-05-03 17:57:56 : <Lensman> In theory, an ion/plasma thruster could boost the reaction mass to a high percentage of lightspeed. That would be an extremely efficient use of reaction mass, with an extremely high ISP. In practice, we can only achieve a few percent of lightspeed.
2014-05-03 17:58:11 : <SolBelter_Spike> Hippy, probably closer to 5 gee near end of each stage burn.
2014-05-03 17:59:01 : <Hippy> That's a lot better than what the Apollo astronauts went through
2014-05-03 17:59:18 : <SolBelter_Spike> Tom Jr fought plans and ships of Brungarian nation, I think ... among others.
2014-05-03 17:59:25 : <dmac> I was thinking of maybe exotic chemical fuels like ozone in combination with atomic hydrogen.
2014-05-03 17:59:31 : <Lensman> 1.25 gees probaly won't ever get you to orbit. You'd burn up all the fuel before you reached orbit. I think the Apollo/Saturn V burned about 1/2 its fuel just lifting itself its own height off the ground.
2014-05-03 17:59:35 : <fredskue_> mostly Brungarians
2014-05-03 17:59:35 : <Dan> Well, the TS Senior series suffered from the racism of the period. The TS Jr series suffered from 40's & 50s political thinking. The existing TS reboot suffered from being totally boring and ignoring the previous two series.
2014-05-03 17:59:49 : <SolBelter_Spike> Original Tom eventually got alien space signals
2014-05-03 17:59:55 : <fredskue_> he finally defeated the Brungarians and the Kranjovians raised their ugly heads
2014-05-03 18:00:23 : <Lensman> Dan: I don't remember the final one that well. Was that the one where he was seeding other planets with pods full of bacteria?
2014-05-03 18:00:42 : <SolBelter_Spike> and a "Planet Stone' meteorite impacting Swift Fied with lettered essage on it.
2014-05-03 18:00:49 : <fredskue_> http://www.tomswift.info/homepage/galaxy.html
2014-05-03 18:00:59 : <fredskue_> final TSJR
2014-05-03 18:01:21 : <SolBelter_Spike> Swift Field with message^
2014-05-03 18:01:23 : "Alex_A" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 18:01:43 : <Lensman> I tried to get into the first Tom Swift (Sr.) series; couldn't. That despite my love of Victorian and Mauve era writing.
2014-05-03 18:01:43 : <Jim> Alex!
2014-05-03 18:01:44 : <Hippy> I don't know about Nick, but I feel isolated from all this Swiftness. Tyranny of copyright domains
2014-05-03 18:01:55 : <fredskue_> Sol, yes, that's chapter one of book one of the TSJR series :)
2014-05-03 18:01:59 : <NickE> not just me then
2014-05-03 18:02:09 : <Hippy> Alex!
2014-05-03 18:02:14 : <Dan> Lens, it was a 10 volume total reboot that tried to cash in on Star Wars & Treck fandom. It read pretty much like $6 Mil Man fan-fic.
2014-05-03 18:02:21 : <NickE> hi Alex
2014-05-03 18:02:22 : <Alex_A> Hey
2014-05-03 18:02:23 : <Hippy> Lens, 'Mauve Era'?
2014-05-03 18:02:38 : <Lensman> Tom Jr. was always fighting a carefully unspecified "enemy". I always found it odd that they were so obsessed with fighting Commies and Soviets, but could never name them...
2014-05-03 18:03:00 : <Alex_A> I forgot it's Sat chat
2014-05-03 18:03:01 : <fredskue_> well, no
2014-05-03 18:03:06 : <fredskue_> but besides that
2014-05-03 18:03:10 : <fredskue_> welcome Alex
2014-05-03 18:03:28 : <NickE> never actually laid eyes on a Tom Swift. Only ever heard US listers go on about them
2014-05-03 18:03:43 : <Lensman> LOL! "The TS reboot suffered from being totally boring..." Yeah, that was my reaction too. Yawn. Never bought any more than the first in that series.
2014-05-03 18:03:45 : <Hippy> No, indeed, Nick. I grew up with a copyright convention that said you couldnt' publish in Australia until there was a British edition. So if England didn't like it, we didn't get it. Plus, things were edited for Australian conditions
2014-05-03 18:03:58 : <Alex_A> Did organlegger turn up?
2014-05-03 18:04:05 : <NickE> suks
2014-05-03 18:04:09 : <fredskue_> Which reboot? As I said, there are 5 series at this point
2014-05-03 18:04:12 : <SolBelter_Spike> And the Tom Srs. had the obligatory comic relief black servant bustling about preparing for another scary expedition ...
2014-05-03 18:04:15 : <Dan> There was, I thought, a lot in common between the TS Jr series and the old Doc Savage pulps. But TS Jr had the advantage of using the TS Sr series as backstory. The reboot did not engage me at all.
2014-05-03 18:04:27 : <fredskue_> There are British Tom Swifts; I've got some
2014-05-03 18:04:31 : <Lensman> "Mauve era", the 1910s. Edgar Rice Burroughs started writing then. Most of that has Victorian values, even if the tech is a bit more advanced.
2014-05-03 18:04:54 : <Dan> Fred, the late '70s reboot. I gave up after that and didn't know there ware any others.
2014-05-03 18:05:14 : <NickE> maybe so, but I never grew up reading them
2014-05-03 18:05:19 : <Lensman> Larry (Organlegger) was here, yes.
2014-05-03 18:05:30 : <SolBelter_Spike> I personally preferred Rick Brant science series stories less fantastic tech.
2014-05-03 18:05:53 : <fredskue_> Rick Brant has the advantage of having way fewer books
2014-05-03 18:05:57 : <Jim> Was Oscar Wilde a character in the Mauve era?
2014-05-03 18:06:02 : <Alex_A> I've heard of them, but not read them
2014-05-03 18:06:35 : <Hippy> Why 'Mauve', though?
2014-05-03 18:07:05 : <Dan> Mauve was just what the critics of the time decided to call it.
2014-05-03 18:07:26 : <Lensman> Hmmm, I see the Mauve Decade described as the final decade of the 1800s. Guess I was wrong to use that term. Let's say, rather, the Edwardian era.
2014-05-03 18:08:05 : <Jim> The 1890's were part of the Victorian era.
2014-05-03 18:08:33 : <Lensman> What Dan said. Don't ask the historians to be logical!
2014-05-03 18:08:34 : <Dan> Edwardian would have been roughly beginning around WWI.
2014-05-03 18:09:05 : <Lensman> Yes, the 1890s was part of the Victorian era. As I said, I erred in using the term "Mauve era"; should have said Victorian.
2014-05-03 18:09:09 : <NickE> well, a bit earlier 1901
2014-05-03 18:09:11 : <Jim> Victoria was Emperess of India until 1901.
2014-05-03 18:09:14 : <Dan> Victoria stepped down and Edward took the throne.
2014-05-03 18:09:22 : <Lensman> Tanj! Should have said Edwardian.
2014-05-03 18:09:32 : <NickE> um Died and Edward too throne
2014-05-03 18:09:45 : <Lensman> Victoria died in 1901, did she not?
2014-05-03 18:09:59 : <Dan> Nick, not in steampunk worlds, LOL!
2014-05-03 18:10:07 : <NickE> ah
2014-05-03 18:10:43 : <Dan> Steampunk is almost all inside the rein of Victoria, with a little carryover into Edwardian.
2014-05-03 18:11:22 : <Lensman> My point is that the culture remained pretty much the same until World War I. ("Downton Abbey", in addition to being by far the best soap opera ever filmed, shows the transformation caused by WW I remarkably well.)
2014-05-03 18:11:47 : <NickE> Would you class A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah! as Steampunk? Thats much later
2014-05-03 18:11:49 : <Dan> Sorry, I've forgotten sometimes that while I have been so involved in that sort of thing, not everyone has an interest.
2014-05-03 18:12:01 : <dmac> Lens: An old reference I have lists ozone as giving 8% more ISP than oxygen. Use of atomic hydrogen, the highest radical then known, would yield an ISP of about 1200 seconds. I don't know of any active research though.
2014-05-03 18:12:37 : <NickE> (Oh please. Downton was "nice" but dull and factually all over the shop)
2014-05-03 18:12:47 : <Lensman> No, I wouldn't call A TRANSATLANTIC TUNNEL, HURRAH! "Steampunk". Alternate world SF, not steam era at all.
2014-05-03 18:13:15 : <Dan> Diessel-Punk perhaps.
2014-05-03 18:13:47 : <NickE> oh I dunno, plenty of Steam. Mre to point, society was still ssentially Victorian
2014-05-03 18:14:06 : <Dan> All the different "-Punk" fandoms tend to overlap a lot.
2014-05-03 18:14:21 : <Lensman> In fact, the "punk" part is almost violently opposed to the tone of TUNNEL. Steampunk, at least in the narrow sense, explores the seedy underside of Victorian society. In TUNNEL, everyone was an upstanding proper citizen. None of that underclass rabble to worry about, and a very optimistic view of the future; none of the cynicism of Steampunk.
2014-05-03 18:14:48 : <NickE> ATAT,H predates all the -punk l;abels
2014-05-03 18:14:59 : <Dan> It does, indeed.
2014-05-03 18:15:27 : <Lensman> Yup.
2014-05-03 18:16:10 : <Lensman> No, the society in TUNNEL was pre-Victorian. Georgian.
2014-05-03 18:16:12 : <Dan> Oddly enough, the best example of steampunk that is most quoted is the Wild, Wild West TV series from the '60s.
2014-05-03 18:16:12 : <NickE> I rather like it as an alternate univers that to a degree at least predicts some themes/ideas that crop up in steampunk
2014-05-03 18:16:39 : <Lensman> Georgian or Regency era, not Victorian.
2014-05-03 18:17:05 : <dmac> I'm taking off. See you all next month.
2014-05-03 18:17:08 : <Hippy> I wouldn't agree with the Georgian description of ATTH, Lens
2014-05-03 18:17:19 : <fredskue_> bye dmac
2014-05-03 18:17:20 : <NickE> no, teh whole vibe was very Victorian
2014-05-03 18:17:26 : <Hippy> 'Bye, dmac
2014-05-03 18:17:33 : "dmac" left the channel.
2014-05-03 18:17:59 : <Hippy> The plot was stolen from a 1930's movie, 'The Tunnel'
2014-05-03 18:18:27 : <Jim> bye
2014-05-03 18:18:40 : <NickE> interesting
2014-05-03 18:18:57 : <Hippy> For example, ATTH had a large working class, industrial working class, and some middle class people
2014-05-03 18:19:04 : <NickE> and of course Wild Wild West was never shown in teh UK
2014-05-03 18:19:06 : <SolBelter_Spike> 'FP-1 Does Not Answer'
2014-05-03 18:19:20 : <Lensman> To me, the graphic novel (NOT THE MOVIE!!) THE LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN most typifies Steampunk. It has all the overgrown massive architecture; the super-technology based on steam tech; and very much has the seedy, cynical truth underneath Victorian society virtues of honor and respectability.
2014-05-03 18:19:37 : <NickE> agree there
2014-05-03 18:19:41 : <Lensman> "The Wild, Wild West" has the tech... and that's all it has from the Steampunk genre.
2014-05-03 18:19:43 : <Hippy> I wonder if 'Mauve Era' comes from the invention of mauve colouring, as described in a book I can't remember the full name of, but which I think is just called 'Mauve' and describes the advent of modern chemistry
2014-05-03 18:20:19 : <SolBelter_Spike> I'm glad Alan Moore got it right, Lensman.
2014-05-03 18:20:20 : <Dan> While steampunks embrace Verne & Wells as "Victorian SF&F," when they want to give an example of what the whole genre is about they tend to point to WWW, LXG, and to a lesser extent the Van Helsing movie & cartoon movie.
2014-05-03 18:20:22 : <Lensman> Mind you, I do love that show. It was one of my very favorites when it was on, and I still enjoy occasionally watching my DVDs.
2014-05-03 18:21:15 : <Hippy> Much like Nick, I never saw it. Isn't this an interesting cultural divide?
2014-05-03 18:23:04 : <Lensman> I agree that TUNNEL does show a large middle-class, and you're right about that happening in the Victorian era. But the cultural mores are all Georgian. Jane Austen would have felt perfectly at home in that story.
2014-05-03 18:23:12 : <Dan> It's a complicated subject. My having lived through the '6s and being exposed to all that as a kid tends to give me a bit of perspective that other, much younger steampunks enjoy when we interact.
2014-05-03 18:23:28 : <fredskue_> Worse steampunk movie adaptation: LXG or Wild Wild West?
2014-05-03 18:23:43 : <Lensman> WWW. Hands down.
2014-05-03 18:23:54 : <Lensman> LXG did have -some- good bits in the movie.
2014-05-03 18:23:57 : <Hippy> LXG, but I will admit I never saw WWW
2014-05-03 18:24:10 : <Dan> WWW, the giant spider is the typical steampunk machine, but the plot was rubbish.
2014-05-03 18:24:30 : <NickE> yep, its sucked goats
2014-05-03 18:24:41 : <fredskue_> You know why the giant spider is in there?
2014-05-03 18:24:45 : <Dan> LXG suffered because the graphic novel was so much better than the movie script.
2014-05-03 18:24:48 : <Lensman> Well okay... I will grudgingly admit the giant mecha spider was one good scene in WWW.
2014-05-03 18:24:57 : <Lensman> The only one.
2014-05-03 18:25:00 : <Dan> Yeah, I know about the spider, LOL!
2014-05-03 18:25:07 : <Hippy> Okay, Lens, do you think Jane Austen would've felt at home in Victorian society?
2014-05-03 18:25:10 : "Alex_A" left the channel.
2014-05-03 18:25:11 : <NickE> LXG was flawed, but fun enough if you ignored the liberties it took from teh source material
2014-05-03 18:25:21 : <Lensman> Fred, I'm sure you've told us before, but I've forgotten.
2014-05-03 18:25:30 : "Alex_A" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 18:25:41 : <fredskue_> there's a mentally ill movie producer named Jon Peters
2014-05-03 18:25:57 : <fredskue_> ex hairdresser, ex beard of Barbra Streisand (or vice versa)
2014-05-03 18:26:07 : <Lensman> Hippy: Maybe if she never visited London. She would have been at home in one of the English country estates.
2014-05-03 18:26:11 : <SolBelter_Spike> And I don't know about the spider
2014-05-03 18:26:25 : <fredskue_> he's got his fingers just far enough in several pies to control them, including Wild Wild West and Superman
2014-05-03 18:26:34 : <Dan> Fred knows, I defer to his elloquence.
2014-05-03 18:26:45 : <fredskue_> and he tried to force his giant spider into every movie they made for decades
2014-05-03 18:26:53 : <fredskue_> he just finally got away with it in WWW
2014-05-03 18:27:20 : <Hippy> Such is the power of blackmail
2014-05-03 18:27:40 : <SolBelter_Spike> Aaaaah! :)
2014-05-03 18:27:41 : <fredskue_> Kevin Smith talks about it in his stage show
2014-05-03 18:28:03 : <fredskue_> it was left over from Superman
2014-05-03 18:28:09 : <Hippy> Lens, you may have something there. Victorain and Georgian society are separated by the advent of the middle class, and Harrison doesn't reallly dwell on that too much.
2014-05-03 18:28:14 : <fredskue_> where he also wanted the Supermobile
2014-05-03 18:28:16 : <Lensman> Dan: That's the POINT. Why the f*ck did they change the LXG movie's script so much? All they had to do was stick to the source! I just re-read that a couple of days ago. What a fabulous story! Who would be brain-dead enough to put Tom Sawyer into the story? WTF!!
2014-05-03 18:28:18 : <fredskue_> because flying is stupid
2014-05-03 18:28:43 : <Dan> As I said, if the plot & script of WWW had been closer to the TV series, it would have been amazing. LXG as a graphic novel was so complex that it was un-fimable without turning it into a trilogy.
2014-05-03 18:28:46 : <fredskue_> Lens, there's a theory that Tom Sawyer started out in LXG as Tom Swift
2014-05-03 18:29:03 : <fredskue_> and somebody pointed out they couldn't use Tom Swift
2014-05-03 18:29:04 : <Hippy> However, there are people in ATTH that wouldn't have been in a Georgian England, namely the Reverend Aldiss and the clerk at the beginning of the story.
2014-05-03 18:29:13 : <fredskue_> same reason Fu Manchu became the Phantom
2014-05-03 18:29:25 : <Hippy> Also, for that matter, no industrial magnates in Georgian England.
2014-05-03 18:29:52 : <fredskue_> But you've never worked with these guys if you don't understand why nobody followed the League plot
2014-05-03 18:29:55 : <Lensman> Georgian society is almost entirely rural. Jane Austen stories, or at least the ones I've read, are all set in rural areas. With the rise of the Victorian age, London became the biggest city in the world.
2014-05-03 18:30:02 : <fredskue_> it's because nobody read the graphic novels
2014-05-03 18:30:07 : <fredskue_> period
2014-05-03 18:30:08 : <fredskue_> at all
2014-05-03 18:30:16 : <fredskue_> movie producers don't read
2014-05-03 18:30:21 : <Dan> The art of dropping literary characters into historical dramas is best explored by Philip Jose' Farmer and his fans.
2014-05-03 18:30:36 : <fredskue_> if they do research they only follow other media
2014-05-03 18:30:51 : <Lensman> The Victorian age also had people moving from the farm to working in squalid conditions in coal mines and factories. Sure, some of the poor moved up to the middle class. Others moved down into absolutely appalling living conditions.
2014-05-03 18:30:58 : <fredskue_> hence Disney's Tarzan being based entirely on earlier Tarzan movies and not the books
2014-05-03 18:31:25 : <fredskue_> it used to be that producers had people to read the book for them and give them a synopsis
2014-05-03 18:31:32 : <fredskue_> they they stopped reading entirely
2014-05-03 18:31:43 : <Lensman> They put Tom Sawyer in so there would be an "American" character, for American audiences. Idiots!
2014-05-03 18:31:53 : <fredskue_> and the readers started watching other movies for them instead
2014-05-03 18:32:09 : <fredskue_> Lens, yes, but that doesn't contradict the Tom Swift theory
2014-05-03 18:32:21 : <fredskue_> at least Tom Swift would have been *close* to the right age
2014-05-03 18:32:30 : <fredskue_> Tom Sawyer should have been older than Sean Connery!
2014-05-03 18:33:49 : <Lensman> Hippy: I admit I don't recall TUNNEL in that much detail. Why does Aldiss not fit with Georgian society?
2014-05-03 18:34:29 : <Dan> Farmer's practice of treating literary characters as real *heavily* influenced my own steampunk novel.
2014-05-03 18:34:53 : <Hippy> Farm life wasn't all that great for those people either, Lens, and while coal mining was crap working conditions, it paid a hell of a lot better. Coal miners could actually buy their own houses! In any case, ATTH is an idealised Victorian world, what it might have been if industrial technology had progressed - much faster than ours has. I want my nuclear trains, goddamnit!
2014-05-03 18:34:54 : <Lensman> The LXG movie dumped Fu Manchu because they couldn't get the rights? And not merely because the writers and producers have horse manure for brains? Well, they should have negotiated for the rights.
2014-05-03 18:35:57 : <fredskue_> Sure they should have, but they didn't
2014-05-03 18:36:07 : <Lensman> Fred: I wasn't contradiction you re Tom Swift. List lag. Interesting thought; Tom Swift would have been a lot more interesting, that's for certain.
2014-05-03 18:36:11 : <fredskue_> just like Disney wouldn't let The Rocketeer use Doc Savage or Bettie Page
2014-05-03 18:36:32 : <Hippy> Aldiss doesnt' fit with Georgian society because the heroes would not have met with a country parson of that ilk. Those ecclesiastical postions are a part of Victorian society
2014-05-03 18:36:38 : <Dan> Fred is right, on that point.
2014-05-03 18:36:54 : <fredskue_> I will admit that substituting Howard Hughes for Doc Savage was a stroke of genius
2014-05-03 18:37:07 : <Lensman> Farm life was, generally, a lot healthier, even if the people didn't enjoy it because it's so BORING. And I speak from experience there.
2014-05-03 18:37:25 : <Dan> It was, but Doc would have been exciting to see after the George Pal debacle.
2014-05-03 18:37:37 : <fredskue_> yep, even unnamed
2014-05-03 18:37:59 : <Jim> Rural married women were the majority of drug addicts in Victorian times.
2014-05-03 18:38:18 : <Lensman> You don't get people living 14 to a cramped apartment in rural life. You don't get people crammed in where disease and filth accumulates, nor get people drinking water contaminated with sewage, on the farm.
2014-05-03 18:38:30 : <Hippy> What the? Where did you learn that?
2014-05-03 18:39:09 : <Dan> The real trick to doing a Doc Savage movie right would be a balancing act between finding an actor who could play it straight, and respectfully adapting the series into a workable script.
2014-05-03 18:39:31 : <Hippy> That question was about drug addiction in rural life
2014-05-03 18:39:32 : <fredskue_> Dan, you ever see how the first Doc Savage movie turned into a western?
2014-05-03 18:39:34 : <Lensman> I didn't mind the substitution of Huges for Doc. That was indeed pretty clever.
2014-05-03 18:39:57 : <Dan> No, Fred. I didn't see that.
2014-05-03 18:40:02 : <Lensman> Now, toning down the "Good Girl" cheese... that was just unforgivable! Too bad it was a Disney film.
2014-05-03 18:40:24 : <fredskue_> They were all set to start filming a Doc Savage movie with Chuck Connors as Doc
2014-05-03 18:40:29 : <Lensman> Well, Doc was only in the comic for a walk-on cameo.
2014-05-03 18:40:50 : <fredskue_> for some reason the rights fell apart at literally the last moment
2014-05-03 18:41:00 : <Lensman> In fact, I'm not even sure Doc himself appeared in the comic. Maybe it was just Ham and Monk?
2014-05-03 18:41:08 : <fredskue_> So they took the cast and crew and made RIDE BEYOND VENGEANCE instead
2014-05-03 18:41:09 : <Hippy> How much of this are you understanding, Nick?
2014-05-03 18:41:10 : <Dan> If anyone wants to know what life for the Victorian-era poor was like, I recommend Jack London's "People of the Abyss."
2014-05-03 18:41:15 : <fredskue_> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060899/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_57
2014-05-03 18:41:28 : <NickE> heh...some
2014-05-03 18:41:45 : <fredskue_> http://www.pjfarmer.com/woldnewton/dsrock01.gif
2014-05-03 18:41:45 : <Lensman> Hippy: Where did who get what? Was that question directed at me?
2014-05-03 18:41:52 : <fredskue_> Doc Savage, Rocketeer
2014-05-03 18:41:55 : <Hippy> Me, too, but the references are flying by with a whoosh
2014-05-03 18:42:09 : <Dan> I've been a Ripperologist for over 40 years, and even I can finish London's book because it is so damn real!
2014-05-03 18:42:10 : <NickE> some definitely
2014-05-03 18:42:22 : <Hippy> No, at Jim, and his idea of rural women being drug addicts
2014-05-03 18:42:40 : <Hippy> I assume that's how the Stiles's got rich
2014-05-03 18:43:32 : <Hippy> Okay, that's one London scheduled for the Kindle
2014-05-03 18:43:47 : <Lensman> Oh, drug addiction in TUNNEL? I didn't remember that at all. What I do remember is a conversation about how no gentleman would allow their version of the television in his parlor. Imagine, ignoring guests to pay attention to the boob tube! Unthinkable. Now -that- is Georgian cultural mores, not Victorian.
2014-05-03 18:43:52 : <fredskue_> I agree the Rocketeer got Disneyfied, but I didn't mind what they did to Jenny (including changing her name so Jennifer Connely wouldn't miss her cues) nearly as much as what they did to Peevey
2014-05-03 18:44:46 : <Hippy> It also doesn't occur in ATTTH, Lens
2014-05-03 18:45:09 : <Hippy> I think Jim was referring to, to lapse into the vernacular, OTH
2014-05-03 18:45:10 : <Lensman> I got a big dose of just how bad it got in the poorest parts of London in THE COMPLETE JACK THE RIPPER. Profusely illustrated. An excellent resource for anyone who wants to make Steampunk authentic.
2014-05-03 18:45:30 : <Lensman> Altho Dickens did pretty well, too.
2014-05-03 18:45:50 : <Jim> http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/CASEY1.htm
AFK for the last gasp of
2014-05-03 18:46:24 : <Jim> Men drank alcohol; women used opiates.
2014-05-03 18:46:32 : <Dan> I know the author of that, Lens. I met my wife in a JTR chatroom back in '97. I've met nearly all the *respectable* JTR writers.
2014-05-03 18:46:47 : <fredskue_> Robert Bloch?
AFK for the last gasp of Victorian values: helping your pets
2014-05-03 18:46:55 : <fredskue_> Harlan?
2014-05-03 18:46:56 : <fredskue_> :)
2014-05-03 18:47:10 : <Lensman> In the comic book series THE ROCKETEER, our Hero finds and uses a rocket jet pack that turns out to have been stolen from Doc Savage. In the movie, it's Howard Hughes. As Fred was saying.
2014-05-03 18:47:11 : <Dan> Donald Rumbelow.
2014-05-03 18:47:41 : <Dan> Lovely fellow, still doing Ripper tours to make ends meet.
2014-05-03 18:48:19 : "SolBelter_Spike" left the channel.
2014-05-03 18:48:59 : <gofffan> I hate to speak and run, but though I've been logged on, Ive been at work. Sorry I missed some good conversation. Hope to catch you next month. Say bye to Hippy for me. And bye y'all!
2014-05-03 18:49:10 : <fredskue_> hey gofff
2014-05-03 18:49:16 : <fredskue_> see you around the Nautilus!
2014-05-03 18:49:17 : <gofffan> yes?
2014-05-03 18:49:20 : <Dan> But if you get the chance to take a Ripper tour, I recommend the walkabout with Philip Hutchinson, another friend.
2014-05-03 18:49:21 : <Lensman> No respectable woman would be caught dead imbibing spirits! (...she said, taking a drink from her laudenum bottle.)
2014-05-03 18:49:27 : <gofffan> Will do.
2014-05-03 18:49:30 : "gofffan" left the channel.
2014-05-03 18:50:46 : <Dan> Nothing wrong with Rumby, but Philip is an actor as well as a tourguide. He tells the story better.
2014-05-03 18:51:28 : "SolBelter_Spike" joined the channel.
duct-tapes SolBelter to the channel!
2014-05-03 18:51:59 : <Lensman> My understanding is that laudenum was pretty widely available, both in Britain and the USA, during the Victorian era. Both in the city and in the rural areas, where it was sold by traveling salesmen. Dunno when that first became commonplace; perhaps it wasn't in the Georgian era.
2014-05-03 18:52:45 : <Dan> Snake-Oil salesmen, LOL!
2014-05-03 18:52:53 : <Lensman> Yes Dan, exactly.
2014-05-03 18:53:09 : <SolBelter_Spike> But, then, I've been a Howard Hughes fan - the real Tom Swift, with enormous resoureces, and brains.
2014-05-03 18:53:10 : <Lensman> The cliche had to come from somewhere, after all.
2014-05-03 18:53:11 : <Dan> Arsenic was also a popular drug, at the time.
2014-05-03 18:54:35 : <SolBelter_Spike> Having Hughes craft the rocketpack was great, imho.
2014-05-03 18:54:38 : <Lensman> I remember Napoleon used arsenic as a medicine. Put into a bowl of hot water, and inhaled the fumes. Didn't realize it was considered a "drug".
2014-05-03 18:55:04 : <Lensman> Sol: Indeed it was.
2014-05-03 18:55:18 : <Dan> One Ripper suspect died of arsenic poisoning, never knowing that it was a cumulative poison that built up over time. His wife, an heiress from Mississippi was put on trial for her husband's murder.
2014-05-03 18:55:40 : <Hippy> Not James Maybrick???
2014-05-03 18:55:48 : <Dan> Yes, Maybrick.
2014-05-03 18:55:58 : <Jim> Morphine was invented in the hope that an injectiable drug would not be habit forming. :-(
2014-05-03 18:56:03 : <Hippy> Right...
2014-05-03 18:56:49 : <Lensman> Heck, Sherlock Holmes was addicted to cocaine. Drug addiction just wasn't thought of the same way, back before the days of "Reefer Madness" and (later) "Just say no to drugs."
2014-05-03 18:57:24 : <Dan> Florence Maybrick served part of her prison term, then was pardoned by a British judge. She finished her life as a "Ct Lady" living in a delapidated shed in New England.
2014-05-03 18:57:27 : <Lensman> Altho the "pipe dreams" of the opium addict were not considered respectable.
2014-05-03 18:57:42 : <Dan> Cat Lady
2014-05-03 18:57:46 : <Hippy> Well, as Milton Friedman pointed out, the social effects of drugs are directly atttirbutable to its price. Cocaine itself is less harmful than coffee
2014-05-03 18:58:32 : <Lensman> But that's more to do with the fact that opium addicts pretty much lost the will to do anything but lay around and smoke their pipe. It was immoral because it made you "lazy", not because you had an addiction.
2014-05-03 18:58:40 : <Dan> Well, I've never tried cocaine, but I go through at least two quarts of coffee per day, LOL!
2014-05-03 18:59:12 : <Hippy> Heroin has no debilitating effects at all, and if it were the same price as beer per ounce, there would be no social problems with it at all
2014-05-03 19:00:40 : <Hippy> True, it's a social thing, Lens. Lazines was frowned upon in the Industrial Age - but of course addicrts still had to make money to live
2014-05-03 19:00:51 : <Dan> Well, heroin's diminishing returns can wind up leading to a lethal overdose, Hippy.
2014-05-03 19:00:59 : <Hippy> The abhorrence of decadence was the social stigma
2014-05-03 19:01:24 : <Hippy> They can, Dan, but don't automatically do so
2014-05-03 19:01:47 : <Dan> No, not automatically. You're right.
2014-05-03 19:01:59 : <Hippy> If heroin were priced like coffee, the cost per gram would be trivial.
2014-05-03 19:02:15 : <SolBelter_Spike> Statistically though, a certain percent do OD.
2014-05-03 19:02:23 : <Hippy> $600 a gram the last time I enquired
2014-05-03 19:03:18 : <Hippy> A certain percent will be shot over a drug deal, or die of starvation, or be shot in a robbery. The numbers are trivial in economic terms
2014-05-03 19:03:37 : <Dan> If I remember correctly, laudinum was pretty much upper-middle to lower-high class. The poor tended to drink themselves to death on Gin,& on beer.
2014-05-03 19:03:43 : <Hippy> Now, of course you want to prevent death
2014-05-03 19:04:10 : <Hippy> Laudanum would've been expensive
2014-05-03 19:04:23 : <Dan> Yep.
2014-05-03 19:05:07 : <Hippy> There must be somewhere that cites prices. As Jane Jacobs oserved, the Victorian era is a mine of data - and that's before 'data mining' was popular in South Korea
2014-05-03 19:05:26 : <Dan> As much as I love gin & tonics, drinking room-temperature straight gin would be what I'd call a nightmare.
2014-05-03 19:05:28 : <Hippy> I sic Jim onto the question
2014-05-03 19:05:40 : <Lensman> I've seen it claimed that heroin addicts can lead "relatively" normal lives, with "relatively" little effect on their health, if they can get a dependable supply of clean drugs. But I note that nobody is claiming that a heroin addiction is likely to improve your health or extend your lifespan. And I certainly have no desire to learn from first-hand experience!
2014-05-03 19:06:21 : <SolBelter_Spike> Among Boston musicians I know, they all had a different half-dozen friends each OD
2014-05-03 19:06:29 : <Hippy> Nobody is claiming that for any addiction, Lens
2014-05-03 19:06:30 : <Lensman> Dan: Well, laudenum would be too expensive for regular use by the very poor, it's true.
2014-05-03 19:07:06 : <Hippy> You friends have a large circle of friends, Spike
2014-05-03 19:07:13 : <Dan> Keith Richards and Ray Charles are the exception, not the rule.
2014-05-03 19:07:43 : <SolBelter_Spike> Cheap heroin is a current plague in western/susurban towns the Boston Globe clains
2014-05-03 19:08:14 : <fredskue_> argh
2014-05-03 19:08:23 : <fredskue_> it just went from 70 to 100f here
2014-05-03 19:08:31 : <fredskue_> just in time for the outdoor block party
2014-05-03 19:09:07 : <Dan> I'd guess that "cheap" would equal "loaded with impurities" in that case.
2014-05-03 19:09:10 : <SolBelter_Spike> The outdoor sunblock party, it seems.
2014-05-03 19:09:26 : <fredskue_> well, the sun will be down, or behind the house
2014-05-03 19:09:28 : <fredskue_> but still
2014-05-03 19:09:30 : <fredskue_> it's 100
2014-05-03 19:09:42 : <SolBelter_Spike> Agreed Dan..
2014-05-03 19:09:43 : <Lensman> Sadly, WHAT JANE AUSTEN ATE AND CHARLES DICKENS KNEW has no chapter on drugs or addiction. Perhaps the Call of Cthulhu, especially Cthulhu by Gaslight, could shed light on typical prices for a drug addict.
2014-05-03 19:09:48 : <fredskue_> I was supposed to bring piping hot pizza
2014-05-03 19:10:13 : <Lensman> I mean the "Call of Cthulhu" RPG rules.
2014-05-03 19:10:32 : <Dan> Fred, as long as the drinks are cold and the food is hot, I'm guessing that everyone will still have a good time. :)
2014-05-03 19:11:38 : <Jim> It is about supper time, so I will see you all in a month.
2014-05-03 19:11:42 : <Jim> bye
2014-05-03 19:11:43 : <SolBelter_Spike> I didn't make my saving roll against reality. :) Take care all.
2014-05-03 19:11:55 : <Lensman> Bye
2014-05-03 19:12:08 : <Hippy> 'Bye, Jum
2014-05-03 19:12:08 : <SolBelter_Spike> Good luck, Fred!
2014-05-03 19:12:12 : <Hippy> Jim!
2014-05-03 19:12:21 : "Jim" left the channel.
2014-05-03 19:12:25 : <Hippy> Fred, I wish I were there
2014-05-03 19:12:29 : <Dan> Goodnight, Jim!
2014-05-03 19:12:44 : <Hippy> A good few beers in the dusk sounds damn good
2014-05-03 19:12:52 : <Dan> "Missed it by *THAT* much! LOL!
2014-05-03 19:12:54 : <fredskue_> Dan, I suspect people are going to open their front doors, realize it's 30 degrees hotter than it was yesterday, close them again and watch tv
2014-05-03 19:12:57 : "SolBelter_Spike" left the channel.
2014-05-03 19:13:12 : <Lensman> Thanks, Max.
2014-05-03 19:13:41 : <Dan> Damn, forgot to close the quote, :)
2014-05-03 19:14:02 : <Lensman> It's okay, I mentally inserted it. :)
2014-05-03 19:14:39 : <Dan> Have you watched the revival movie? I finally did, and was surprized to find that I enjoyed it quite a lot.
2014-05-03 19:14:50 : "Alex_A" left the channel.
2014-05-03 19:15:04 : <Lensman> I didn't. Glad for you that you did.
2014-05-03 19:15:21 : <Hippy> What, what? A 'Get Smart' revival movie?
2014-05-03 19:16:03 : <Lensman> In fact, with the sole exception of "The Brady Bunch", which was a parody, I can't thnk of a single movie based on a 1/2 hour show that I have cared for.
2014-05-03 19:16:04 : <Dan> Well, I do have less exacting standards than you, Lens. Which makes you more valuable as a critic than I.
2014-05-03 19:16:28 : <Lensman> Or maybe it just means I'm a stick-in-the-mud.
2014-05-03 19:17:05 : <Dan> Hippy, yes. Several year back. I found it fun, if not mentally challenging.
cannot abide these remakes which are parodies. They are all about the dirctor's capcity to wank
2014-05-03 19:17:18 : <fredskue_> did you see the director of the original GREEN ACRES just got the rights to make a movie of it?
2014-05-03 19:17:24 : <Lensman> I actually envy those of my friends who like practically every movie they see. Sadly, those two friends have passed away.
2014-05-03 19:17:28 : <fredskue_> the director who was BORN IN 1913
2014-05-03 19:17:36 : <Hippy> Hmm. My bad use of the CTRL again
2014-05-03 19:17:42 : <Lensman> I envy, or envied, them because they enjoyed so many *more* movies than I ever did!
2014-05-03 19:18:04 : <Dan> Just a different sort of typo, Hippy. Don't worry about it.
2014-05-03 19:18:05 : <Lensman> test
2014-05-03 19:18:14 : <Hippy> Fred, he must be 300 years old!
2014-05-03 19:18:16 : "Lensman" left the channel.
2014-05-03 19:18:23 : <fredskue_> he's literally 101
2014-05-03 19:18:23 : "Lensman" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 19:18:28 : <Lensman> test
2014-05-03 19:18:31 : <Dan> this might bee what Darren is doing...
2014-05-03 19:18:36 : <Dan> Yep.
2014-05-03 19:18:46 : <Lensman> Ah, that's better. I had a lockup for some reason.
2014-05-03 19:18:51 : <fredskue_> there's more than one GET SMART movie
2014-05-03 19:18:56 : <fredskue_> there's THE NUDE BOMB
2014-05-03 19:19:03 : <NickE> tjats about right
2014-05-03 19:19:04 : <fredskue_> which has no nudity (idiots)
2014-05-03 19:19:12 : <fredskue_> and then there's the TV movie
2014-05-03 19:19:19 : <Dan> CTRL+i = typing in italics in the chat window.
2014-05-03 19:19:22 : <fredskue_> and then there's the Steve Carrel thing
2014-05-03 19:19:39 : <Lensman> Anyway, I envy those friends of mine (recently deceased, sadly) who liked almost every movie they ever saw. They enjoyed so many -more- films than I ever did!
2014-05-03 19:19:46 : <fredskue_> Lens
2014-05-03 19:19:50 : <fredskue_> we saw everything you posted
2014-05-03 19:19:55 : <fredskue_> including the tests
2014-05-03 19:20:03 : <Hippy> Yep, Dan. CTRL+I rather than CTRL+U, but I'm hugely impressed that I can get italics here. Allows emphasis that much better
2014-05-03 19:20:06 : <NickE> anyhoo, gotta go to bed. Long day tomorrow, going to see Yes in the evening (but Bank Holiday on Monday so only a 4 day week, yay!)
2014-05-03 19:20:15 : <Dan> Fred, I was refering to the most recent movie, but you are exactly right. I'd forgotten about "Nude Bomb" entirely.
2014-05-03 19:20:28 : <Hippy> Nighty-night, Nick
2014-05-03 19:20:29 : <NickE> test
2014-05-03 19:20:39 : <NickE> hbijp
2014-05-03 19:20:52 : <Lensman> I was referring to the Steve Carrel (sp?) "Get Smart" movie. Just didn't have the same flavor at all, for me. Humor is definitel a matter of style.
2014-05-03 19:20:55 : <Dan> Goodnight, Nick!
2014-05-03 19:21:04 : <NickE> huoh
2014-05-03 19:21:11 : <Lensman> Night!
2014-05-03 19:21:20 : <fredskue_> I'm afraid Nick may have had a stroke
2014-05-03 19:21:37 : <Hippy> He's okay, he's British
2014-05-03 19:21:49 : <Dan> Was it a forward slash or a backslash? LOL!
2014-05-03 19:21:54 : <Lensman> I remember almost nothing about "The Nude Bomb"... which suggests I found it pretty mediocre.
notes that he used 'British', not 'English', in deference to modern American fahion
2014-05-03 19:22:18 : <Dan> I remember only the title, which suggests that I hated it.
2014-05-03 19:22:36 : <Lensman> Well, you could say "English English"... :)
2014-05-03 19:23:13 : "NickE" left the channel.
2014-05-03 19:23:26 : "NickE" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 19:23:49 : <NickE> how odd. Typing wasnt registering
2014-05-03 19:23:52 : <Lensman> Has no one duck taped Nick to the channel? Tsk, tsk.
2014-05-03 19:24:12 : <Lensman> Nick, that's what happened to me. I had to close the window and re-open.
2014-05-03 19:24:20 : <NickE> anyhho, off to bed. Also off to see Yes later today
2014-05-03 19:24:26 : <Lensman> And I wasn't trying to use italics, either.
2014-05-03 19:24:29 : <fredskue_> and I'm not seeing your italics anyway
2014-05-03 19:24:30 : <NickE> Lens yes, that what I just did#
2014-05-03 19:24:30 : <NickE> Lens yes, that what I just did
2014-05-03 19:24:31 : <Lensman> Bye Nick!
2014-05-03 19:24:44 : <fredskue_> Nick @ Night
2014-05-03 19:25:05 : <NickE> weird. Good chat though 9even if I missed heap)
2014-05-03 19:25:10 : <Lensman> +2 for Fred (relevant, funny)
2014-05-03 19:25:18 : <NickE> Night all
2014-05-03 19:25:34 : <Lensman> This was a very lively and enjoyable chat; wish I had tuned in sooner!
2014-05-03 19:25:44 : "NickE" left the channel.
2014-05-03 19:25:47 : <fredskue_> you were here when it started :)
2014-05-03 19:26:33 : <Dan> Duct taping people to the channel is something I used to do in #DoctorWho chats on DALnet, back in the day. I'm afraid that I haven't influenced that many people to use that in-joke here in Nicen Chat.
2014-05-03 19:26:43 : <Lensman> Was not! Y'all were discussing "What if Ghod walked into the Draco Tavern?" when I walked into the middle of the discussion.
2014-05-03 19:27:26 : <Lensman> Dan: I would use it more often if I could remember the command for displaying a message (as opposed to a normal post).
2014-05-03 19:27:33 : <Hippy> Dang, real life intervened.
2014-05-03 19:27:47 : <Lensman> Sadly, it does from time to time.
2014-05-03 19:28:30 : <fredskue_> You missed very little
2014-05-03 19:28:31 : <Lensman> I've asked a couple of times how to do that, but I always forget because I don't use it.
2014-05-03 19:29:03 : <Dan> Lens, I was telling folks about my upcoming book and Larry congratulated me. Which lead to a discussion of spaceport bar stories, since that's what my book will be, when Hippy suggested that Larry write a new DT story about "God walking into the DT and demanding that Rick prove His existance."
2014-05-03 19:30:01 : <Dan> Lens, in mIRC the command is "/me does something"
2014-05-03 19:30:19 : <Lensman> I still want to know why Ghod needs someone to prove His existance! Can't he do it himself? If I were Rick, I would respond "Hey, you're the omniscient one; why settle for second best?"
2014-05-03 19:30:48 : <Lensman> Oops, that should be "the omnipotent one".
2014-05-03 19:30:57 : <Dan> So any text following the /me command turns purple and uses the name of the poster.
tests the command...
2014-05-03 19:31:33 : <Lensman> I suspect the color varies by what browser or client you're using.
2014-05-03 19:31:36 : <Hippy> Damn!
2014-05-03 19:32:18 : <Dan> Well, the purple is pretty much IRC standard for chat client programs and applets. It's a really old IRC command.
2014-05-03 19:32:19 : <Lensman> I'm not seeing any color change in the above messages.
belatedly tapes Nick to channel
2014-05-03 19:32:52 : <Dan> You're using a flash-based chat client applet, I'm guessing.
2014-05-03 19:32:58 : "HAL9000" left the channel.
2014-05-03 19:33:20 : <Dan> Lens, I saw that as purple text, even if you didn't.
2014-05-03 19:33:27 : <Lensman> I'm using Chatzilla. Dunno Flash from Buck (Gordon, Rogers).
2014-05-03 19:33:44 : "HAL9000" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 19:34:18 : <Lensman> It's all white text on black to me. But those *** messages come in bright green; the sign-on text from the client appears in bluegreen.
2014-05-03 19:34:56 : <Lensman> Welcome, Hal!
2014-05-03 19:35:42 : <Dan> I'm using the newest mIRC client program that I have. I've been using mIRC since 1996. If I know the server and channel info, I can usually get there with mIRC.
2014-05-03 19:36:41 : <Hippy> Me too with mIRC, though not for as long as Dan
2014-05-03 19:36:47 : <Dan> Some web-page based chat clients, I can't decypher well enough to use mIRC. Some, I can.
2014-05-03 19:37:14 : <Lensman> I was quite happy with mIRC, but when I upgraded my computer, I couldn't remember how to do the settings. So I gave up and am using Chatzilla. It is nice that if I exceed the character limit, it automatically puts in a break and posts the rest as a 2nd post...
2014-05-03 19:37:32 : <Hippy> Hmm. Odd that HAL9000 dropped out, though
2014-05-03 19:37:37 : <Lensman> ...altho I'm guessing from what some others here have said that some don't see that P.S. post.
2014-05-03 19:38:04 : <Dan> Chatzilla is a pretty good client, as I recall. I used it for several things, back in the day.
2014-05-03 19:38:23 : <Lensman> The down side for Chatzilla is that when the chat scrolls up too far, it disappears. I can't scroll back all the way to the start of when I entered chat.
2014-05-03 19:39:02 : <Hippy> I remember last year I had to log on to Mark Firestone's bulletin board! It was like stepping back 25 years! (Moreso because it worked.)
2014-05-03 19:39:03 : <Lensman> Hal came back.
2014-05-03 19:39:15 : <Dan> One thing that I like about mIRC is its ability to log chats. I have chat logs for Niven chats that go back for decades!
2014-05-03 19:39:31 : <fredskue_> cool
2014-05-03 19:39:35 : <Lensman> Hey Hal! How's it going? Are you just gonna lurk?
2014-05-03 19:39:58 : <Hippy> I suspect he's a bot, Lens. I've never seen a post by him
2014-05-03 19:40:09 : <Dan> But they aren't really that useful to find a conversation, unless you know the date the conversation took place.
2014-05-03 19:40:32 : <Hippy> (It, her, them, that, which, Who and....um...Those)
2014-05-03 19:40:40 : <Lensman> Dan, would it be possible for me to get a copy of your logs? Eventually I'll want to go thru them, to mine them for info for my Known Space Concordance.
2014-05-03 19:41:05 : <Dan> Key-word searches of a Niven Chat log are worse than useless, since we often mention the same keywords time and time again.
2014-05-03 19:41:06 : <Hippy> You could search them for words, Dan
2014-05-03 19:41:10 : <Lensman> Ah. Hal9000 = bot. Makes sense!
2014-05-03 19:42:20 : <Lensman> No, I mean actually read thru them. I've done that several times, at the chat log at larryniven.net. I can skim pretty fast when I want to.
2014-05-03 19:42:28 : <Hippy> It makes more sense to Solbelter, who I thought was a bot for years
2014-05-03 19:42:37 : <Dan> Lens, some of my chat logs contain stuff that's been deemed Private. I'm afraid that I can't let you have them. But Sean has copies of all the Public chat logs.
2014-05-03 19:42:53 : <Lensman> Okay, no prob.
2014-05-03 19:43:19 : <Dan> Still, nice to know that someone can tell me stuff that no one else is supposed to know, and I'll respect it.
2014-05-03 19:43:50 : <Hippy> Particularly for you, Dan, who didn't previously realise it
2014-05-03 19:43:53 : <Dan> Honor is something I do hold dear.
2014-05-03 19:44:08 : <Lensman> As we all should.
2014-05-03 19:44:39 : <Hippy> It made Roddy McDowall a very popular friend
2014-05-03 19:44:40 : <Lensman> That's one thing that attracts me about Victorian culture; honor and respect for others were held in high esteem.
2014-05-03 19:45:40 : <Dan> Still, I need to pick someone trustworthy to delete my chat logs when my time comes to shuffle off this mortal coil.
2014-05-03 19:45:46 : <Lensman> In some ways, more "civilized" than our society today.
2014-05-03 19:45:59 : <Hippy> Indeed, Lens. However, your Georgian analogy is apt, because there is a series, "lost in Austen', wherein the protagonist makes a point about why Austen is so popular, as she is projected into 'Prdie and Prejudice'.
2014-05-03 19:46:18 : <Hippy> I thought it a good summation of the popularity of steampunk
2014-05-03 19:46:59 : <Dan> Hippy, that is so right!
2014-05-03 19:47:15 : <Lensman> I can't help but think of the tag line for the "Space: 1889" rule book: "Role Playing in a more Civilized Era".
2014-05-03 19:47:24 : <Hippy> I only wish I could quote it exactly
just dotes on that game
2014-05-03 19:47:46 : <Dan> Not necessary, you summed it up nicely.
2014-05-03 19:48:13 : <Lensman> Hippy: Sounds intriguing. Is this a print series or a TV series, or what?
2014-05-03 19:48:37 : <Dan> Sometimes, the ability to distil the meaning of something is far more useful than direct quotes.
2014-05-03 19:48:52 : <Hippy> TV seris out of England. I bought the DVDs at Barnes & Noble
2014-05-03 19:49:50 : <Hippy> This is what the wtiter did in that series, Dan - and it's Georgian, which backs up Lens to an extent
2014-05-03 19:49:59 : <Lensman> The "Space: 1889" rule book is the best written and illustrated RPG I've ever seen. Too bad their published adventures are not even in the ballpark of being the same quality. *Sigh* I can write better myself. Have written better, frequently.
2014-05-03 19:50:27 : <Hippy> Hold on, published adventures???
2014-05-03 19:50:36 : <Dan> I do believe that I watched the TV series back in the late '70s when I was living with the two ladies who eventually became the Mare Inebrium's "Blanche & Trixie."
2014-05-03 19:50:46 : <fredskue_> um
2014-05-03 19:51:07 : <fredskue_> I think somebody's mixing up 1889 and 1999?
2014-05-03 19:51:38 : <Hippy> You must have had a good TV, the series is from 2010
2014-05-03 19:52:21 : "Dan" joined the channel.
2014-05-03 19:52:23 : <Hippy> I hope you are thinking of 'By The Sword Divided'. one of the two TV series that ever made me cry
2014-05-03 19:52:39 : <Dan> Sorry about that, Chief...
2014-05-03 19:52:46 : <Hippy> Dan! It's been, like, forever!
2014-05-03 19:52:52 : <Lensman> I see "Lost in Austen" as a movie available from my Netflix account, but no TV series. Must not be available on Region 1 DVD.
2014-05-03 19:52:56 : <fredskue_> welcome dan
2014-05-03 19:53:33 : <Hippy> It is in Regiojn I, Lens, but maybe Netflix doesn't have it. What's the duration?
2014-05-03 19:53:43 : <fredskue_> Lost in Austen is available on Amazon
2014-05-03 19:53:51 : <fredskue_> streaming and purchase
2014-05-03 19:54:24 : <Dan> Hippy, you did know that Blanche and Trixie were based on real people? Trixie was a former girlfriend of mine, and Blanche was her room mate/flatmate. Those names were what they called each other when joking about, by the way. Not their real names.
2014-05-03 19:54:41 : <Lensman> Hmmm, no, looks like the DVD is just the TV episodes. Okay, I'll add it to my queue.
2014-05-03 19:54:48 : <Lensman> Only 4 episodes.
2014-05-03 19:54:57 : <Hippy> That's the one, Lens
2014-05-03 19:55:05 : <Hippy> I had no idea, Dan
2014-05-03 19:55:30 : <Hippy> It's English, Lens, so it only goes as far as the idea will go :)
2014-05-03 19:55:51 : <fredskue_> Jemima Rooper is now Medusa in Atlantis
2014-05-03 19:56:39 : <Hippy> Hey, I just noticed that CrazyEddy isn't here. How sad...
2014-05-03 19:56:53 : <Lensman> Run time 177 minutes, which is strange. The Wiki article says the DVD is spread over 2 discs, but our Netflix account only gives us 1 at a time, and it's letting me order it as one. So I guess it's one of those Netflix has made up for them special.
2014-05-03 19:57:36 : <fredskue_> Amazon says the DVD is 180m
2014-05-03 19:57:37 : <fredskue_> one disc
2014-05-03 19:58:46 : <Hippy> Yes, I assume so. It is a good show, but downloading it just verify my quote, or ge the real quote, is a bit extreme. Bear in mind they are not trying to give the 'real truth' about Georgain England.
2014-05-03 19:58:52 : <Lensman> 177, 180... *shrug* As Leonard Maltin notes, getting accurate running times is rather problematic. Close enough.
2014-05-03 19:59:11 : <fredskue_> I was mostly addressing the '1 disc'
2014-05-03 19:59:16 : <Dan> "Blanche" is online on Facebook under her real name, and on my Friends list. Christine Seely-King, her Dad owned the Kelly Girls temp agency. Trixie is totally offline, after some really rough divorce proceedings that screwed her over- long after she and I were romancing. But she still maintains her family fortune, living somewhere in Jacksonville, Florida under her real name. Her Dad used
2014-05-03 19:59:16 : <Dan> to design nuclear reactors, BTW.
2014-05-03 20:00:19 : <Hippy> Well, that is informative
2014-05-03 20:00:24 : <Lensman> I'm not going to dowload it to check your quote, I'm ordering the DVD (we don't do streaming) because it sounds like an interesting story! And I love Jane Austen.
2014-05-03 20:00:34 : <Dan> I haven't spoken with "Trixie" since we split up, but Blanche and I are still good friends.
2014-05-03 20:00:40 : <Hippy> Perhaps I can flesh out my characters of them based on that copy
AFK for...last beer in the fridge
2014-05-03 20:01:47 : <Dan> Well, I do try and protect their real lives, as best I can. But Blanche is a highly-trained cook, writing cookbooks in real life.
2014-05-03 20:01:51 : <fredskue_> sigh. I'm saying that Amazon sells the physical DVD, one disc, 180m
2014-05-03 20:03:12 : <Lensman> The similarities between Georgian and Victorian mores and society are much, much greater than the differences. I was disputing TUNNEL being Victorian partly just to make conversation. But I do note some not-really-subtle differences between the two.
2014-05-03 20:04:24 : <Lensman> For example, it has been said that George Washington carried himself as if he were on a stage being observed at all times. I don't know how commonplace that was, but I see that as much more typical of Georgian era mannerisms than Victorian.
2014-05-03 20:04:36 : <Dan> Here is a photo of myself and Christy / "Blanche", from back in the late '70s. I'm the one with the long hair, BTW- LOL!
2014-05-03 20:04:39 : <Dan> https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/60197_1525431110063_5399919_n.jpg
2014-05-03 20:06:16 : <Lensman> Sorry if I've responded to a comment directed at someone else. Occasionally it's hard for me to tell.
2014-05-03 20:06:26 : <fredskue_> k
2014-05-03 20:07:09 : <Lensman> Fred: I appreciate you checking. Wasn't trying to argue. Sometimes you think I'm arguing when I'm just commenting.
2014-05-03 20:07:15 : <Dan> Not to worry, Lens.
2014-05-03 20:08:55 : <fredskue_> ooo, I like this. The new COSMOS is "Science for kids and liberal arts majors."
2014-05-03 20:09:57 : <sean> back from derby party
2014-05-03 20:10:00 : <Dan> You are an amazing person David, but you tend to worry far too much about other people's opinion of you. Just keep being yourself.
2014-05-03 20:10:09 : <Dan> WB, Sean!
2014-05-03 20:10:31 : <Lensman> The reboot of "Cosmos" has some very attractive trailers. Unfortunately when I tried to watch the show, or at least the first episode, it paled by comparison to the original. Neil Degrasse Tyson certainly is knowledgable, but he doesn't communicate passion and enthusiasm the way Carl Sagan did.
2014-05-03 20:10:36 : <Dan> Which horse won?
2014-05-03 20:11:11 : <Dan> Not that I had a bet, or anything. Just curious.
2014-05-03 20:11:11 : <Lensman> Dan: Thanks for the advice.
2014-05-03 20:11:21 : <sean> the winner... i just go for beer and comradarie... i dont care about the race.
2014-05-03 20:11:44 : <Dan> There *was* a winner, I take it, LOL!
2014-05-03 20:12:12 : <sean> the favorite won... california chrome
2014-05-03 20:12:45 : <sean> not in any of my pot draws so i just donated money to other people
2014-05-03 20:12:52 : <Dan> What a name for a horse. Oh well, at least you had fun.
2014-05-03 20:13:31 : <Hippy> What the Sean????
2014-05-03 20:13:39 : <Dan> LOL!
2014-05-03 20:13:48 : <sean> well, its the get together party for my group of friends local after winter.
2014-05-03 20:13:51 : <fredskue_> hey sean
2014-05-03 20:14:16 : <sean> hope you all had a good chat
2014-05-03 20:14:19 : <Dan> Hippy, there was a photo link for you to see what the real "Blanche" looked like at roughly age 20.
2014-05-03 20:15:52 : <Dan> Sadly, I have no photos of the real "Trixie." So you'll just have to deal with my idealized memories of her as the sexiest woman I've ever dated up 'til I met Lindsey.
2014-05-03 20:18:43 : <Hippy> No worries, Dan. My imagination is clearer than my eyesight.
2014-05-03 20:19:18 : <sean> nobody had the stones to change the fred as emperor of the room?
2014-05-03 20:19:18 : <fredskue_> Yeah, I'm wondering what I may find among the literally tens of thousands of pictures at my Mom's house
2014-05-03 20:19:31 : <fredskue_> sean, somebody tried
2014-05-03 20:19:36 : <fredskue_> and it didn't take
2014-05-03 20:19:37 : <fredskue_> dunno why
2014-05-03 20:19:49 : <Hippy> Sean, and other interested persons, I couldn't even put a bet on the Derby. Stupidf Australian bookies, no wonder everyone is betting in Tuvalu
Sean... Owner of the chat room!
2014-05-03 20:20:33 : <Hippy> Now, assume you're drinking at your keyboard.
2014-05-03 20:20:37 : <fredskue_> sniffle
2014-05-03 20:20:43 : <Lensman> Well, it did get changed from "Fred Emperor of Dune" to "...Middle Dune".
2014-05-03 20:20:44 : <fredskue_> 'twas fun while it lasted
2014-05-03 20:20:50 : <fredskue_> yeah, I did that
2014-05-03 20:20:59 : <Hippy> You were Emperor, Fred, until the revolution
2014-05-03 20:21:06 : <fredskue_> then somebody else changed it but it didn't change
2014-05-03 20:21:10 : <fredskue_> Hippy, you have a PM
Fred... Lord of Barsoom
vows loyalty to the Emperor
2014-05-03 20:21:22 : <Lensman> "When the revolution came, he was first up against the wall!"
2014-05-03 20:21:27 : <fredskue_> mmmm, more Dejah Thoris for me
2014-05-03 20:21:45 : <Lensman> Mmmm hmmm!
2014-05-03 20:21:47 : <fredskue_> although I'd really rather have Dian the Beautiful
2014-05-03 20:22:24 : <Dan> The real Trixie was about 5'6"-5'7" blondish-brown hair, with wider hips and a smaller bust than Bettie Page, but the same sort of animal magnetism.
2014-05-03 20:22:37 : <Hippy> Right....are there any photos of these leaders?
2014-05-03 20:22:53 : <fredskue_> I think there are pictures of Bettie Page
Dan - Lord Of Alternate History, and Hack SF&F Writer!
2014-05-03 20:24:02 : <Hippy> So, yes, which side of your keyboard do you put your beer/drink/gun?
2014-05-03 20:24:25 : <sean> no argument there, dan
2014-05-03 20:25:14 : <Lensman> We are planning to show "The Rocketeer" at Laser Rangers (my movie buff/home theatre group) next Saturday. I was looking at Bettie Page pictures online. Pretty tame by today's standards, but I guess erotic photos were a lot less common back then.
2014-05-03 20:25:36 : <fredskue_> there are thousands and thousands of BP pics
2014-05-03 20:25:40 : <fredskue_> many are not so tame
2014-05-03 20:26:05 : <Hippy> I was abou to ask where Fred was with the URLs
2014-05-03 20:26:10 : <fredskue_> but yeah, you'd almost have to be tamer than today
2014-05-03 20:26:11 : <fredskue_> lol
2014-05-03 20:26:27 : <fredskue_> I'm scare to google 'explicit bettie page'
2014-05-03 20:26:30 : <Lensman> Thousands? Most of them have escaped being scanned and posted to the Intertubes, then.
2014-05-03 20:26:38 : <fredskue_> oh, yes, thousands
2014-05-03 20:27:10 : <Dan> Beer is on the right, next to my ashtray, Trackbal is on my left. Gun is in the upper left-hand desk cubby, and another gun is in my "bum-bag" behind me and to my left, and another gun is in the closet behind me, and the rest of the guns are in the Master Bedroom.
2014-05-03 20:27:19 : <fredskue_> I bet a lot of them spell her name wrong
2014-05-03 20:28:02 : <Lensman> I confess I tried to spell it "Betty" when I first Googled her.
2014-05-03 20:28:07 : <fredskue_> lens
2014-05-03 20:28:09 : <fredskue_> try
2014-05-03 20:28:12 : <Dan> Bettie didn't do "explicit" but she did do full nude.
2014-05-03 20:28:13 : <fredskue_> nude bettie page
2014-05-03 20:28:28 : <Lensman> Fred, that was my search term.
2014-05-03 20:28:57 : <Dan> And actually, her birth name *was* Betty.
2014-05-03 20:29:02 : <fredskue_> I'm getting full nude, splayed, and there's a guy with his hand in what looks to be a naughty place
2014-05-03 20:29:14 : <Hippy> Amazing: totally lost in the Marilyn cloud
2014-05-03 20:29:55 : <fredskue_> I wish google still told you how many hits you got
2014-05-03 20:30:56 : <Dan> Betty was a photo model, not a porn star, LOL!
2014-05-03 20:31:07 : <Lensman> What Fred is describing sounds pretty explicit to me.
2014-05-03 20:31:39 : <Lensman> Dan: Yeah, that's what I read. That she was a model, not a porn star. I wasn't really expecting to see what Fred is describing.
2014-05-03 20:31:49 : <Dan> Exactly, so I doubt seriously it's a photo of the actual Bettie.
2014-05-03 20:32:53 : <Lensman> Oh! Now I remember, yeah there were some that looked to be fake/photoshopped explicit "photos". Kinda hard to tell, of course.
2014-05-03 20:33:03 : <Hippy> Well, it appears that Bettie was a good Southern gal
2014-05-03 20:33:15 : <fredskue_> I'm loathe to post links here
2014-05-03 20:33:20 : <Dan> Tennesse born and raised.
2014-05-03 20:33:23 : <fredskue_> especially as they preview
2014-05-03 20:33:42 : <Dan> West Tennessee, as I recall.
2014-05-03 20:33:43 : <Lensman> You see those fakes online for just about every sex symbol.
2014-05-03 20:34:49 : <fredskue_> this don't look fake
2014-05-03 20:35:00 : <fredskue_> although I'll admit that fakes are getting better
2014-05-03 20:35:01 : <Lensman> People who obviously have too much time on their hands...
2014-05-03 20:35:04 : <fredskue_> more's the pity
2014-05-03 20:35:31 : <fredskue_> I especially don't understand why people make fakes for women that actually pose nude
2014-05-03 20:35:37 : <Dan> One clue to the fakeness of those is that the real Bettie was very religious while refusing to understand how nude photos of her would be considered sinful by anyone but a nutcase.
2014-05-03 20:36:48 : <Lensman> Hmmm, I read that she "Got religion" later in life, didn''t know she had that even when she was doing pinup photos.
2014-05-03 20:37:09 : <Dan> BDSM photo of Bettie? Sure, she did hundreds of pics where she was tied up, or spanking some other model who was tied up. Sex scenes? She never did any.
2014-05-03 20:38:11 : <Lensman> LOL! Trying to imagine the mindset of someone who thinks BDSM isn't sinful, but sex is. Nah... I'm only an SF fan. Too alien for me!
2014-05-03 20:38:36 : <Dan> Never been any photos of Bettie with a man in them. Bettie with other lady models, thousands of those, but all playful, non-explicit.
2014-05-03 20:38:53 : <Hippy> Nicely put, Lens
2014-05-03 20:39:10 : <Lensman> Thanks. :)
2014-05-03 20:39:58 : <Dan> Irving Claw was the main photog for any BDSM pics of Bettie. She only did bikini and nude photoshoots with anyone else.
2014-05-03 20:41:45 : <Dan> From the recorded audio interviews of Bettie as an old woman that I;ve heard, she though that the human form was a beautiful blessing from her God, and never considered it to be a sin to pose nude.
2014-05-03 20:42:36 : <Dan> Complex, as well as beautiful Lady, in my opinion.
2014-05-03 20:42:39 : <Hippy> In her case, that made sense. However, God turns His eyes from my shower
2014-05-03 20:43:14 : <Dan> I'm sure he peeps into mine, Hippy. But onlu when my wife is in it, LOL!
2014-05-03 20:43:23 : <Hippy> He sort of regrets letting evolution be so random
2014-05-03 20:45:03 : <fredskue_> 1 hour to block party. It's getting hotter.
2014-05-03 20:45:24 : <fredskue_> .weather kphx
2014-05-03 20:45:26 : <Outsider> Clear â˜¼, 100.4â„‰ (38â„ƒ), 29.81in (1006mb), Light air 3kt (â†») - KPHX 23:51Z
2014-05-03 20:45:48 : <Dan> Sort of a case of "Tits? Now I remember why I invented those! Jesus!" "Yes, Dad? You called?" "Not now, Boy. I'm busy..."
2014-05-03 20:45:57 : <Hippy> Holy crap, Fred
2014-05-03 20:45:59 : <Dan> :)
2014-05-03 20:46:27 : <Hippy> LOL, Dan!
2014-05-03 20:46:28 : <Lensman> I can easily see that a nudist philosophy could be compatible with devout religion. Look at what Michaelangelo did on the Sistine Chapel ceiling! But bondage and discipline... hard for me to understand how you can separate fetishism from sin.
2014-05-03 20:46:36 : <Hippy> .weather 32826
2014-05-03 20:46:37 : <Outsider> KeyError: 'geonames' (file "/home/logbot/phenny/modules/weather.py", line 38, in location)
2014-05-03 20:46:54 : <fredskue_> the only nudist I know is an atheist
2014-05-03 20:47:22 : <fredskue_> he's also the second to last person you'd want to see nekkid
2014-05-03 20:47:25 : <Hippy> .weather 32826
2014-05-03 20:47:26 : <Outsider> KeyError: 'geonames' (file "/home/logbot/phenny/modules/weather.py", line 38, in location)
2014-05-03 20:47:36 : <fredskue_> the last, rhymes with 'Sheen'
2014-05-03 20:47:44 : <Hippy> What the hell???? SEAN!!!!
2014-05-03 20:47:59 : <fredskue_> you need call sign
2014-05-03 20:48:01 : <fredskue_> not zip
2014-05-03 20:48:05 : <Lensman> Ah yes, Phoenix. Where summer lasts 9 months of the year. (Well okay, it's only 8-1/2.)
2014-05-03 20:48:29 : <Dan> Lens, one of my nextdoor neighbors is a world-famous therapists who specializes in the problems faced by people living alternate-lifestyles like BDSM. Look up "Gloria Brame" some time.
2014-05-03 20:49:30 : <Hippy> Nice locale you live in. Dan. It's all Bettie Page and therapy
2014-05-03 20:49:34 : <fredskue_> .weather WUCF
2014-05-03 20:49:35 : <Outsider> KeyError: 'geonames' (file "/home/logbot/phenny/modules/weather.py", line 38, in location)
2014-05-03 20:49:41 : <fredskue_> hmmm
2014-05-03 20:49:50 : <fredskue_> .weather kphx
2014-05-03 20:49:51 : <Outsider> Clear â˜¼, 100.4â„‰ (38â„ƒ), 29.81in (1006mb), Light air 3kt (â†») - KPHX 23:51Z
2014-05-03 20:49:54 : <Hippy> No idea of call sign, but I know Jim did it by zip alone
2014-05-03 20:49:54 : <fredskue_> lol
2014-05-03 20:50:01 : <Lensman> "Problem"? Reminds me of the joke: "I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!"
2014-05-03 20:50:02 : <fredskue_> okay, florida is broken
2014-05-03 20:50:18 : <Dan> Beautiful Lady who lives with her husband and "housegirl." All three are respected in their fields, and all three are amazing people in their own right.
2014-05-03 20:50:19 : <fredskue_> !weather 85251
2014-05-03 20:50:24 : <HAL9000> Weather info for AZCC, Phoenix, Arizona (updated on 5:50 PM MST on May 03, 2014) -- Temperature: 98.3°F / 36.8°C -- Humidity: 11% -- Dew Point: 34°F / 1°C -- Wind: NW at 0.9 mph / 1.4 km/h -- Wind Gust: 2.2 mph / 3.5 km/h -- Pressure: 29.81 in / 1009 hPa (Rising) -- Conditions: Partly Cloudy -- Visibility: 10.0 miles / 16.1 kilometers -- UV: 3 out of 16 -- Clouds: (FEW) : 25000 ft / 7620 m --
2014-05-03 20:50:28 : <HAL9000> Yesterday's Maximum: 95°F / 35°C -- Yesterday's Minimum: 67°F / 19°C -- Sunrise: 5:37 AM MST -- Sunset: 7:12 PM MST -- Moon Rise: 9:12 AM MST -- Moon Set: 11:19 PM MST -- Moon Phase: Waxing Crescent
2014-05-03 20:50:30 : <fredskue_> try that Hippy
2014-05-03 20:50:37 : <fredskue_> exclamation point
2014-05-03 20:50:42 : <fredskue_> and zip
2014-05-03 20:51:00 : <Lensman> !weather MCI
2014-05-03 20:51:01 : <Dan> Well, I *was* here first, LOL!
2014-05-03 20:51:06 : <HAL9000> Weather info for Kansas City International, Missouri (updated on 6:53 PM CDT on May 03, 2014) -- Temperature: 74°F / 23°C -- Humidity: 33% -- Dew Point: 43°F / 6°C -- Wind: East at 9 mph / 15 km/h -- Pressure: 29.87 in / 1011 hPa (Falling) -- Conditions: Mostly Cloudy -- Visibility: 10.0 miles / 16.1 kilometers -- UV: 0 out of 16 -- Clouds: Scattered Clouds (SCT) : 15000 ft / 4572 m Mostly
2014-05-03 20:51:09 : <HAL9000> Cloudy (BKN) : 25000 ft / 7620 m -- Yesterday's Maximum: 68°F / 20°C -- Yesterday's Minimum: 41°F / 5°C -- Yesterday's Heating Degree Days: 11 -- Sunrise: 6:17 AM CDT -- Sunset: 8:14 PM CDT -- Moon Rise: 9:48 AM CDT -- Moon Phase: Waxing Crescent
2014-05-03 20:51:11 : <fredskue_> !weather 32826
2014-05-03 20:51:14 : <Hippy> Holy...okay, let's see
2014-05-03 20:51:15 : <HAL9000> Weather info for Summer Field, Orlando, Florida (updated on 8:51 PM EDT on May 03, 2014) -- Temperature: 62.9°F / 17.2°C -- Humidity: 95% -- Dew Point: 61°F / 16°C -- Wind: NNE at 1.0 mph / 1.6 km/h -- Wind Gust: 2.0 mph / 3.2 km/h -- Pressure: 30.00 in / 1016 hPa (Rising) -- Conditions: Overcast -- Visibility: 6.0 miles / 9.7 kilometers -- UV: 0 out of 16 -- Clouds: (FEW) : 900 ft / 274 m (FEW)
2014-05-03 20:51:20 : <HAL9000> : 1400 ft / 426 m Overcast (OVC) : 2000 ft / 609 m -- Yesterday's Maximum: 80°F / 27°C -- Yesterday's Minimum: 71°F / 22°C -- Sunrise: 6:42 AM EDT -- Sunset: 8:01 PM EDT -- Moon Rise: 10:14 AM EDT -- Moon Phase: Waxing Crescent
2014-05-03 20:52:01 : <Dan> Gloria calls Lyn & I her "favorite Vanila Couple." LOL!
2014-05-03 20:52:14 : <Hippy> !weather 32826
2014-05-03 20:52:18 : <HAL9000> Weather info for Summer Field, Orlando, Florida (updated on 8:52 PM EDT on May 03, 2014) -- Temperature: 62.9°F / 17.2°C -- Humidity: 95% -- Dew Point: 61°F / 16°C -- Wind: NNE at 0.0 mph / 0.0 km/h -- Wind Gust: 2.0 mph / 3.2 km/h -- Pressure: 30.00 in / 1016 hPa (Rising) -- Conditions: Overcast -- Visibility: 6.0 miles / 9.7 kilometers -- UV: 0 out of 16 -- Clouds: (FEW) : 900 ft / 274 m (FEW)
2014-05-03 20:52:22 : <Lensman> Ah, so you -can- use a ZIP code for weather info here.
2014-05-03 20:52:23 : <HAL9000> : 1400 ft / 426 m Overcast (OVC) : 2000 ft / 609 m -- Yesterday's Maximum: 80°F / 27°C -- Yesterday's Minimum: 71°F / 22°C -- Sunrise: 6:42 AM EDT -- Sunset: 8:01 PM EDT -- Moon Rise: 10:14 AM EDT -- Moon Phase: Waxing Crescent
2014-05-03 20:52:25 : <Hippy> Yay!
2014-05-03 20:52:39 : <fredskue_> :)
2014-05-03 20:52:42 : <fredskue_> now
2014-05-03 20:52:43 : <fredskue_> hippy
2014-05-03 20:52:50 : <fredskue_> quit ignoring my pm!
2014-05-03 20:53:04 : <fredskue_> lest I leave and it be another month
2014-05-03 20:53:06 : <Lensman> Or at least sometimes you can.
2014-05-03 20:53:34 : <Hippy> Oh, cool, even cloud cover
2014-05-03 20:53:45 : <Dan> I believe that because we don't pass judgement on her, her friends, or her clients. They're harmless people who just live lifestyles that Lyn & I don't.
2014-05-03 20:56:33 : <Dan> I was at a party at Gloria's once where she felt compeled to apologize to me since I was the only straight person there. She said something like, "it must be difficult for you to understand everyone who is so different from yourself." I replied "Honey, I'm a Science-Fiction writer. I automatically out-weird everyone in the room by a factor of 12!" LOL!
2014-05-03 20:57:40 : <Lensman> Well, what is it that Larry says is the central concept of SF? "There are people who think differently than you." That certainly applies to morality, and as we all know, you don't have to leave this Earth to find lots of cases of that.
2014-05-03 20:59:18 : <Dan> Lens, as I see it, if you don't harm anyone except in self-defence againse an attack, you're being moral.
2014-05-03 20:59:21 : <fredskue_> I think Larry said 'minds that think differently than yours'
2014-05-03 20:59:37 : <Lensman> I have friends in the local SF group who have three-person "marriages". I learned rather early in my exposure to fandom not to pass judgement.
2014-05-03 20:59:59 : <Dan> Bye for now, Lyn & I have an hour of Brit-Coms coming on PBS right now!
2014-05-03 21:00:06 : <fredskue_> nite Dan
2014-05-03 21:00:20 : <Dan> Be back in an hour...
2014-05-03 21:03:50 : <Hippy> See you soon, Dam
2014-05-03 21:04:22 : <Hippy> Or Dan, as I think the correct typing goes
2014-05-03 21:07:31 : <Hippy> This has been one of the longest chats I've ever been in. I don't want to question the norality of that
2014-05-03 21:07:31 : <Lensman> I don't recall the exact quote from Larry, I confess.
2014-05-03 21:07:59 : <Lensman> :)
2014-05-03 21:08:28 : <Hippy> I think Dan is referring to a Niven paraphrase of John W Campell: "Show me an alien who thinks as well as a man, but diiferently to a man."
2014-05-03 21:08:52 : <Hippy> Of which, as Asimov pointed out, Tweel is the earliest example
2014-05-03 21:09:14 : <Lensman> I was thinking about Bettie having "got religion", which to me suggests traditional morality. Not my personal moral judgement (or lack thereof) of someone else.
2014-05-03 21:09:24 : <Hippy> I amend: ..."not like a man"
2014-05-03 21:12:15 : <Lensman> Okay, quoting from NIVEN'S LAWS *ahem*: <italics>The only universal message in science fiction:</italics> There exist minds that think as well as you do, but differently.
2014-05-03 21:12:54 : <fredskue_> there ya go
2014-05-03 21:13:16 : <fredskue_> the 'minds' was important to avoid the instant argument 'are dolphins people?'
2014-05-03 21:14:01 : <Lensman> I wasn't aware that was Niven paraphrasing Campbell, but I wouldn't doubt it. It does sound like something Campbell might say.
2014-05-03 21:15:16 : <Lensman> Altho the phrasing doesn't sound like Campbell, at all.
2014-05-03 21:15:26 : <Hippy> Oh, yes, a famous Campbell instruction to his writers. It may occur in an editorial, but my scholarship isn't up to that
2014-05-03 21:15:46 : <Hippy> I do see that '
2014-05-03 21:15:59 : <Hippy> ...back issues of
2014-05-03 21:16:22 : <Hippy> (The suspense must be killing you)
2014-05-03 21:16:25 : <Lensman> "There exist minds" is awkwardly phrased. Campbell would have re-written that.
2014-05-03 21:16:39 : <Lensman> Astounding/Analog
2014-05-03 21:16:47 : <fredskue_> sounds like vic perrin
2014-05-03 21:16:51 : <fredskue_> outer limits
2014-05-03 21:16:59 : <Hippy> Analog are now online, and I hope that they will put all of the magazins onine eventually.
2014-05-03 21:17:37 : <Lensman> Seriously, entire issues of Analog, cover to cover?
2014-05-03 21:18:28 : <Hippy> As I understand it, yes. Transcripts of the stories, not image sof the page, sadly
2014-05-03 21:18:48 : <Lensman> Presumably past the copyright period, but haven't some of those stories had the copyright renewed?
2014-05-03 21:18:56 : <Lensman> Ah, so no artwork. Sad indeed.
2014-05-03 21:19:03 : <Hippy> Scholars need the whole thing, intact
2014-05-03 21:20:00 : <Hippy> I think Analog's current publishers are doing it, so no worries about copyright, but your point is a good one, Lens
2014-05-03 21:22:43 : <Hippy> I would hate to be studying Poul Anderson for his Scandinavian influences and suddenly be told "Withheld for copyright"
2014-05-03 21:23:30 : <Lensman> Hmmm, according to the Cornell University website I had bookmarked: For works published in 1923 through 1963, published with notice and the copyright was renewed, the work is in copyright for 95 years after publication date.
2014-05-03 21:23:45 : <Hippy> What needs to happen is for some country to determine that electrnic storae is not copying and all will be well
2014-05-03 21:24:30 : <Hippy> That sounda about right
2014-05-03 21:24:58 : <Hippy> Let us not get into copyright debate again. It is a boring legal jungle
2014-05-03 21:25:14 : <fredskue_> I said that last time Hippy
2014-05-03 21:25:19 : <fredskue_> You are infringing@
2014-05-03 21:25:22 : <fredskue_> !
2014-05-03 21:25:46 : <Lensman> First issue of Astounding was cover dated Jan 1930.
2014-05-03 21:26:31 : <Lensman> Ah, you're right, I shoudn't beat that dead horse again.
2014-05-03 21:26:57 : <Hippy> I like it, but it's boring to other people
notes that his riposte to Fred was ruined by him not knowing how to the registerd sign
2014-05-03 21:28:29 : <Hippy> Â®
2014-05-03 21:28:32 : <Lensman> Well, I certainly do no support the idea of eternally extending the copyright period. I think 28 years was quite sufficient, personally. Or even more than sufficient. Patents are still just 20 years.
2014-05-03 21:28:39 : <Hippy> Damn!
2014-05-03 21:29:53 : <Hippy> My only objection to eternal copyright is this idiotic idea of 'derivative work'. It shows that you can copyright an idea and I disagree with that totally
2014-05-03 21:30:35 : <Hippy> But the original work should be in copyrght until there is no-one left to benefit from it
2014-05-03 21:30:36 : <Lensman> I keep meaning to make up a list of useful ALT-codes, so I can type things like the (R) and (C) symbols, and also the degree symbol. Make a list, print it out, and tape it to the edge of my monitor.
2014-05-03 21:30:46 : <Hippy> Like all other property
2014-05-03 21:31:04 : <Lensman> I'm always having to look up the ALT code for the degree symbol.
2014-05-03 21:31:21 : <Hippy> ALT+0174 for the (R)
2014-05-03 21:31:28 : <fredskue_> Â°
2014-05-03 21:31:36 : <fredskue_> Â®
2014-05-03 21:31:37 : <Hippy> ALT+0173 for the (C)
2014-05-03 21:31:38 : <fredskue_> Ã§
2014-05-03 21:31:42 : <fredskue_> Â©
2014-05-03 21:31:53 : <fredskue_> shift option 8 on a mac
2014-05-03 21:33:33 : <Hippy> And who here misses the CTRL+G bell?
2014-05-03 21:33:50 : <Hippy> Damn weird that it didn't reappear for these IM days
2014-05-03 21:35:24 : <Hippy> And also, where is Sean in this twilight hour?
2014-05-03 21:35:51 : <Lensman> Well, if you throw out the protection for derivitive works, then as soon as on TV network has a hit TV show, the other networks could copy the same title, character names, settings, etc. and start showing their own versions of the show. Would you think that's okay? (Not a rhetorical question.)
2014-05-03 21:36:45 : <Lensman> I always found the bell sound an annoyance. I don't use a teletype machine!
2014-05-03 21:36:50 : <Hippy> No, and it wouldn't be derivative if it copied title, character names etc
2014-05-03 21:36:59 : <Hippy> It would be a copy
2014-05-03 21:37:42 : <Lensman> How is a sequel to a book in any way different, as intellectual property, from the next episode in a TV series?
2014-05-03 21:38:09 : <Lensman> A sequel isn't a copy. The next episode isn't a copy of the previous one. Both are derivitive works.
2014-05-03 21:38:11 : <Hippy> However, if Dan writes a novel wherein tripods from Mars in vade Georgia, that isn'[t copying either Wells or a movie made from Wells
2014-05-03 21:39:01 : <Hippy> Not if either use the same character names and places (and a synthesis thereof)
2014-05-03 21:39:16 : <Lensman> Common ideas cannot be copyrighted, even if some scoundrels attempt to claim they can be.
2014-05-03 21:40:01 : <Hippy> An anthology series, in which every time the lead character from Kansas builds a roof for a character in Georgia, wouldn't be (per episode) derived from the previous episode
2014-05-03 21:40:25 : <Hippy> Indeed, Lens. I agree there
2014-05-03 21:40:51 : <Hippy> Upheld, I am glad to say, by the US Federal Court
2014-05-03 21:41:50 : <Lensman> I think we should differentiate between what the idea of copyright is, and how the courts have ruled. Just because the courts have made bad decisions sometimes, doesn't mean the law is a bad idea.
2014-05-03 21:42:47 : <Lensman> Corporations keep pushing for more intellectual property rights. And when they succeed, they try to ride the coat-tails of that success to push even farther.
2014-05-03 21:42:49 : <Hippy> I agree, but in reality what the courts have ruled now stands. I, too, disagree with al ot of ruling on copyright (particularly in the US)
2014-05-03 21:43:59 : <Lensman> That's a very bad trend. But IMHO it doesn't mean copyright is a bad idea. It means that judges shouldn't be so quick to keep granting corporations rights which only real live people should have.
2014-05-03 21:44:34 : <Hippy> The main difficulty with IP law is the way it seems to ignore juridiction. Many US coorporatins assume that what the Supreme Court says is Supreme everywhere. It's a good thing that courts don't assume that
2014-05-03 21:45:52 : <Hippy> I would say, though, that a corporation should have the same rights a peron has, and vice versa. Enforceability and practicality of those rights is really irrelevant
2014-05-03 21:45:58 : <Lensman> If you're really interested, see: "The Modern Lanham Act and the Death of Common Sense" http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=147788
2014-05-03 21:46:20 : <Hippy> A corporation, for example, can bear arms. How it does it is a good question
2014-05-03 21:47:36 : <Lensman> Now that concerns Trademark, but the very same "creep" of corporations successfully pushing their "Rights" in court applies to Copyright, also. Note that Disney has managed to keep "Steamboat Willie", the first Mickey Mouse cartoon, in copyright, thru several extensions past the original legal period.
2014-05-03 21:47:49 : <Hippy> By the way, the idea that an AI should be incorrporated has its 30th anniversay this mont, I think. It's one of thsoe things that have become part of the furniture, but it first appeared in Analog in May 1984, I think. Marc Steigler and Joseph Delaney
2014-05-03 21:48:45 : <Lensman> Nonsense! Corporations shoud have NO rights, period. The legal fiction of a corporate "person" was one of the very worst decisions ever made by the Supreme Court.
2014-05-03 21:51:16 : <Lensman> You can't throw a corporation in jail for breaking the law.
2014-05-03 21:51:54 : <Hippy> You can suspend its charter and stop it from trading, which effectively kills it. Not bad. No Death Row there
2014-05-03 21:52:01 : <Lensman> Corporations cannot commit crimes; only people can. Similarly, corporations have no inborn "rights"; only priviledges granted by law and the courts.
2014-05-03 21:52:25 : <Hippy> Nor do real perosns have inborn rights, Lens
2014-05-03 21:52:25 : <Lensman> Yes, and you can fine corporations too.
2014-05-03 21:52:28 : <fredskue_> I thought we weren't going to do this again
2014-05-03 21:52:44 : <Lensman> "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
2014-05-03 21:53:04 : <Hippy> Me and Lens have issues, Fred, and as soon as I secure conrol of his shares...
2014-05-03 21:53:05 : <Lensman> Maybe you don't believe that, Hippy. But then, you're not an American. It's not part of your social contract.
2014-05-03 21:53:29 : <Hippy> It shouldn't need to be if those rights are inborn, Lens
2014-05-03 21:53:59 : <Hippy> I'd have them, wouldn't I? It wouldn't depend upon a suprahuman entity
2014-05-03 21:54:03 : <fredskue_> I still have booting powers hippy
2014-05-03 21:54:07 : <fredskue_> and I'm open to bribes
2014-05-03 21:54:37 : <Hippy> 'The purpose of power is power', Fred
2014-05-03 21:55:13 : <fredskue_> and in this case personal gain
2014-05-03 21:55:30 : <Hippy> ....which, incidentally, I couldn't find in '1984' though it's 'quoted' in 'Inferno'
2014-05-03 21:55:43 : <Lensman> The corporation was formed to provide a way for people to pool their resources, and to limit the liability of any individual should the enterprise fail. That's a good thing. But to grant the corporation "rights" as if it were a person, is a monstrous misbegotten injustice which unfortunately has become enshrined into Law in the US of A.
2014-05-03 21:56:53 : <Hippy> The "company" was formed for that, Lens. The advent of the corporation predates the advent of the company, as described you, by around 400 years
2014-05-03 21:59:06 : <Lensman> Two countries separated by a common language.
2014-05-03 21:59:18 : <Lensman> Quoting Wikipedia: In American English the word corporation is widely used to describe large business corporations. In British English and in the commonwealth countries, the term company is more widely used to describe the same sort of entity while the word corporation encompasses all incorporated entities. In American English, the word company can include entities such as partnerships that would not be referred to as companies in
2014-05-03 21:59:20 : <Hippy> Anyway, the broad picture is that law is good for rational people to ague about, since it derives from precedent + reason
2014-05-03 22:00:04 : <Lensman> So when I say "corporation", just substitute the word "company" and we'll be Copacetic.
2014-05-03 22:00:05 : <Hippy> Lens, those are commonplace definitions, not legal terms
2014-05-03 22:00:17 : <Hippy> A corporation is different to a company
2014-05-03 22:00:29 : <Lensman> I am not, repeat not, going to get into a semantic argument.
2014-05-03 22:01:37 : <Lensman> The question is whether or not either corporations or companies should have legal "Rights" as distinct, and in addition to, the rights of the individuals which own or make up those organizations.
2014-05-03 22:02:11 : <Hippy> Anyway, you mean an operation set up to do business. I would argue that 'person' means both living people and corporations and that they have the same rights as far as practicable. The good thing about this is that one corporation can't own another corporation, under the 28th amendment
2014-05-03 22:02:31 : <Hippy> 28 amendments...so many mistakes...
2014-05-03 22:02:57 : <Lensman> My argument is that only the individuals *in* those organizations should have legal rights; not the organizations themselves. Just as when a crime is committed, it's the acts of individuals which prosecutors examine. Not the "acts" of the organization.
2014-05-03 22:03:47 : <Hippy> Perhaps they should examine the acts of the corporation separate from the individuals
2014-05-03 22:04:13 : <Lensman> No shell companies, which exist only to own other companies? This is something which obviously has escaped court rulings...
2014-05-03 22:04:36 : <Hippy> Also, do all individuals who make up the organisation have the same rights. If so, I want a bigger office and cuter secretaries.
2014-05-03 22:04:59 : <Hippy> (Facetiousness is a valid tool of argument.)
2014-05-03 22:05:35 : <Lensman> A corporation cannot act. It has no ability to act, no way to form a plan (or a conspiracy). It has no will of its own; it's an expression of the will of the individuals involved.
2014-05-03 22:06:35 : <Lensman> Facetiousness and sarcasm are valid forms of argument, but as usual, when it's an online chat or e-maiil exchange, what you intend as irony may not be apparent to others.
2014-05-03 22:07:01 : <Hippy> There is that, but it's actions are done of itself and made by itself. Witness that it can acquire other corporations without the individuals within the acquiring corporation owning anything of the acquired.
2014-05-03 22:07:15 : <Dan> OK, back from watching "As Time Goes By."
2014-05-03 22:07:16 : <Lensman> "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."
2014-05-03 22:07:30 : <Hippy> I am not looking for perfect equality of rights, merely as close an equality as practicable
2014-05-03 22:08:36 : <Lensman> It's an all too common argument: Pointing out that all men are most definitely *not* "created equal". Ignoring the clear intent of the man or committee which wrote that: Meaning equal in the eyes of the law, not meaning equal in wealth or physical ability or anything else.
2014-05-03 22:09:50 : <Lensman> Oh, I don't agree at all. If the corporation aquires another corporation, then the people who comprise or own that corporation most certainly -do- own that other corporation.
2014-05-03 22:10:02 : <Dan> Call it a silly sitcom, but Lyn and I aren't much younger than the min actor & actress were when the show was first in production. And since the female lead is Dame Judy Dench, well... I find her quite lovely, actually.
2014-05-03 22:10:10 : <Hippy> Milton Friedman argued that the founding fathers were concerned with 'equality of origin' not 'equality of outcome'. (Please excuxe quotes if I have that wrong. 'Free To Choose', 1980)
2014-05-03 22:10:38 : <Lensman> As an example: Let us say the corporation is owned wholly by a single individual. Would you then claim that this person does -not- own any subsidiaries of that corporation? Obviously, he does.
2014-05-03 22:11:13 : <Hippy> Don't forget Geoffrey Palmer, an actor who I hugely admire
2014-05-03 22:11:27 : <Hippy> "Butterflies" is just fantastic
2014-05-03 22:11:56 : <Dan> Lyn says that I am so Lionel, and I say she's exactly so Jean.
2014-05-03 22:12:24 : <Hippy> He makes decisions for that owned corporation. Fine. It doesn't invalidate that a seniro corporation makes decisions.
2014-05-03 22:12:59 : <Dan> I first became awayre of Geoffrey Palmer from his guest star appearances in Doctor Who.
2014-05-03 22:13:04 : <Hippy> Also, do you as shareholder want to be jailed for corporate fraud? You own part of the corporation, after all
2014-05-03 22:13:26 : <Hippy> What series of Doctor Who???
2014-05-03 22:13:34 : <Lensman> My understanding is that what that phrase in the Declaration of Independence-- note, NOT THE CONSTITUTION-- means is that the Founders were rejecting the idea of an inborn superiority of nobility and royalty. That every person should have the same standing, the same rights (or lack thereof) in the eyes of the law. That no man was "better" than another merely because of accident of birth.
2014-05-03 22:13:47 : <Dan> He was in at least one Tom Baker story.
2014-05-03 22:14:24 : <Hippy> My apologies, Lens. I thought it was in the Constitution
2014-05-03 22:14:26 : <Dan> Or was it a very late Jon Pertwee story?
2014-05-03 22:14:47 : <Hippy> I'll have to look this up
2014-05-03 22:15:04 : <Dan> Well, Sarah Jane was in it, in any case.
2014-05-03 22:15:05 : <fredskue_> Palmer is in 4 who eps
2014-05-03 22:15:09 : <fredskue_> from 70 to 72
2014-05-03 22:15:16 : <Lensman> Corporations don't make decisions. The board of directors of corporations make decisions. Executives make decisions. Heck, even cubicle drones make decisions. The corporation... makes none.
2014-05-03 22:15:23 : <fredskue_> 4, 5, & 6 of DOCCTOR WHO AND THE SILURIANS
2014-05-03 22:15:31 : <fredskue_> and 1 of THE MUTANTS
2014-05-03 22:15:37 : <Dan> Episodes of one story or 4 different stories, Fred?
2014-05-03 22:15:52 : <fredskue_> all pertwee
2014-05-03 22:15:59 : <fredskue_> eps of 1 story
2014-05-03 22:16:00 : <Dan> Those are all Pertwee stories.
2014-05-03 22:16:50 : <Dan> Then why do I remember him in a Baker story? I must be going senile.
2014-05-03 22:17:19 : <Lensman> Hippy: If I as shareholder am complicit in a fraud, then certainly I should be punished accordingly. As I pointed out earlier, when prosecutors investigate crimes, they look at individual acts by individuals. Not at the corporation as a person itself.
2014-05-03 22:18:22 : <Lensman> So, Hippy, it seems you agree with me, even if you don't realize it. :)
2014-05-03 22:21:04 : <Hippy> Well, I'll be jiggered. I admit to not having seen the DW eps in which he appeared
2014-05-03 22:22:14 : <Dan> I know those two stories quite well, and both were long before Sarah Jane. My mind is betraying me, these days.
2014-05-03 22:22:30 : <Hippy> I think the law needs to adapt to what a corporation may do that it's owners don't approve of
2014-05-03 22:23:40 : <Hippy> Or even know about. However, this doesn't invalidate the idea that a corporation should have all the rights of a natural person and vice versa. Practical assumption of those rights or use thereof is a different thing.
2014-05-03 22:29:41 : <Hippy> The main thing to remember is that the law is capricious and idiosyncratic.
2014-05-03 22:29:56 : <Hippy> I, on the other hand, have run out of beer
2014-05-03 22:30:00 : <Dan> OK, got to go write an Aphelion editorial. Goodnight!
2014-05-03 22:30:20 : <Hippy> And nighty-night from me, as well
faxes Hippy a 6-pack... :)
thanks and applauds Dan
2014-05-03 22:31:12 : "Dan" left the channel.
2014-05-03 22:31:22 : <Hippy> Until June, everyone, from wherever I may be then
2014-05-03 22:31:28 : "Hippy" left the channel.