Chat Log: March 3rd, 2012

[04:43] Akiraa has joined #knownspace
[07:54] mik has joined #knownspace
[13:03] jonmanyjars has joined #knownspace
[13:59] senax has joined #knownspace
[14:01] Hippy has joined #knownspace
[14:01] #knownspace> senax: Is this one of those times when somebody enters a room and everyone shuts up, or was it already this dead?
[14:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Afternoon, everyone
[14:01] #knownspace> Hippy: You all stopped when I got here :)
[14:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course, it's a little early for the chat
[14:02] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: it's been quiet as long as I've been here
[14:02] #knownspace> senax: No, I got here just before you did, and it was already dead quiet.
[14:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Well,we're an hour early
[14:03] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: we are? I never now what time it starts.
[14:03] #knownspace> Hippy: 8:00PM GMT
[14:03] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: ah.
[14:03] #knownspace> senax: I often pop in an hour early. But then, I more often miss the entire thing.
[14:03] #knownspace> Akiraa: what is Larry's favorite sci-fi universe, other than his own?
[14:03] #knownspace> Hippy: . . .except when there's no daylight savings time
[14:04] #knownspace> Hippy: That's a damn good question!
[14:04] #knownspace> Hippy: In fact, it's a good topic
[14:04] #knownspace> Hippy: You should make it the topic
[14:04] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: it is
[14:05] Akiraa has joined #knownspace
[14:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Welcome back, Akiraa
[14:06] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, and that has reminded me of a question: who here lives in the EU?
[14:06] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: I do
[14:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: <<
[14:06] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: I live in England
[14:06] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yes, good point. I should've said 'Euro Zone'
[14:06] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: not me then
[14:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: EU: the Decivilising Union
[14:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Now there's a slogan
[14:07] #knownspace> Hippy: So, only Akiraa has to cope with the Euro on a daily basis
[14:07] #knownspace> Hippy: ?
[14:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: put up with, yes
[14:08] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: as far as I know. If the Euro blows up, the UK will be on the hook as well.
[14:09] #knownspace> Hippy: There was a reason I wanted to know this, but. . .I wish I could remember what senility felt like
[14:10] #knownspace> Akiraa: the trouble is, saving the EUR and saving Euro countries are opposite goals
[14:10] #knownspace> Hippy: And Xenovalent is a bot, isn't it?
[14:10] #knownspace> Akiraa: doing one necessitates doing without the other
[14:10] #knownspace> Akiraa: so if the bailouts continue, the euro is a goner
[14:11] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: greece should be allowed to default (which it actually already has)
[14:11] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: and kicked out.
[14:11] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: of the euro
[14:11] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, but that was only a matter of time anyway. It was always predicated on having three good economies to prop it up and on getting more and more people to join
[14:11] #knownspace> Akiraa: greece can keep using the eur, unilaterally, even if they get kicked out of the eurozone
[14:11] #knownspace> Hippy: Greece should definitely go back on the drachma
[14:11] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: you can't have seperate economic policies and a common currency. it's madness
[14:11] #knownspace> Akiraa: just like Kosovo is using the eur, nobody minds
[14:11] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: with no real central bank
[14:12] #knownspace> Akiraa: the problem is rather, if greece "returns to the Drachma" it means the government plunders all EUR in private accounts
[14:12] #knownspace> Hippy: But is Kosovo doing something like calling their corrency a Euro, just as we, Canada and Zimbabwe all have 'dollars'?
[14:12] #knownspace> Akiraa: and converts them to Drachmas at a devalued rate
[14:13] #knownspace> Akiraa: effectively stealing 50-70-90% of the people's savings
[14:13] #knownspace> Akiraa: that's what returning to the Drachma means, a bad deal overall
[14:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, yes, the rate would be arbitrary, but so was the rate when Australia went decimal
[14:14] #knownspace> Hippy: But how much did they steal when they went on the Euro in the first place? (Also, how do you make a Euro symbol on IRC?)
[14:15] #knownspace> Hippy: A one for one ecchange of drachmas to Euros would be crazy
[14:15] #knownspace> Akiraa: Hippy: I was just looking at Argentina and Indonesia, when they removed the dollar peg the exchange rate shot all savings
[14:16] #knownspace> Akiraa: Hippy: they don't need a currency, they can use an existing one, uniletarally
[14:16] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yes, I see your point there. But at the same time the peso and the. . .rupiah got cheap enough to encourqge exports
[14:16] #knownspace> Akiraa: you don't really need a central bank
[14:16] #knownspace> Akiraa: just a government that spends enough as it takes in
[14:16] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: akiraa -> that's the trick isn't it.
[14:17] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: akiraa -> at the moment, everyone's on the mountainside tied together with the same rope
[14:17] #knownspace> Akiraa: government debt is in some ways undemocratic, since you're removing the consequence of spending
[14:17] #knownspace> Hippy: It may not be possible to maintain Government services at all based on the low tax yield in Greece
[14:18] #knownspace> Akiraa: well, it also means there's capital in private hands, which can't be managed worse than in state hands
[14:18] Fred_IRC has joined #knownspace
[14:18] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: hi fred
[14:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Fred
[14:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Bye, Fred
[14:19] fredskuentz has joined #knownspace
[14:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Fred
[14:19] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Hey Hippy
[14:20] #knownspace> jonmanyjars: hey dude
[14:20] #knownspace> Hippy: I"m not sure about that, Akiraa. Anyone here have money in Barings Bank?
[14:21] #knownspace> Akiraa: Hippy: there is capital, just too scared to come out right now
[14:24] #knownspace> Hippy: That I can certainly understand
[14:25] #knownspace> Akiraa: the threat of confiscation by inflation or taxation is keeping it away
[14:26] #knownspace> Hippy: So, capital is worried that the Euro isn't a good place to keep all its eggs? Very true
[14:26] #knownspace> Akiraa: compounded by being Greece
[14:27] #knownspace> Akiraa: rich people have moved their money abroad already
[14:27] #knownspace> Hippy: Greece is only the first. The race is on between Portugal and Spain
[14:28] #knownspace> Hippy: With Italy running steadily in fourth place. Where is Lsdbrokes when you need to bet on these things?
[14:28] #knownspace> Akiraa: Iceland wants to ditch their krona and switch to the Canadian dollar :p
[14:28] #knownspace> Akiraa: even unilaterally
[14:28] #knownspace> Hippy: What??? Seriously????
[14:29] #knownspace> Akiraa: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/02/iceland-canadian-dollar_n_1316613.html
[14:29] #knownspace> fredskuentz: It's not even a real dollar anyway.
[14:30] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL, Fred!
[14:32] #knownspace> Hippy: A unified currency for the Arctic countries? Bah!!
[14:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Bring on the Pacific dollar, then!
[14:34] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Are there Antarctic countries?
[14:35] #knownspace> Akiraa: about a dozen of them, claimants
[14:35] #knownspace> Akiraa: biggest being Australia
[14:35] #knownspace> Akiraa: nobody wants East Antarctica, so Aussies will probably get it
[14:37] #knownspace> fredskuentz: heh the idea of 'east Antarctica' is giving me a headache
[14:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, think of it as 'Deep Southern China' and its easier
[14:38] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I could see 'northern and southern'
[14:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, I suppose you could divide it along the International Date Line and Greenwich Meridian
[14:39] #knownspace> fredskuentz: yeah
[14:39] #knownspace> fredskuentz: that's all I could figure
[14:39] #knownspace> fredskuentz: but then northern and souther are in rings
[14:39] #knownspace> Hippy: But in real life it's divided into territories
[14:40] #knownspace> fredskuentz: so you really have NE, NW, SE, SW
[14:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: the NW peninsula is claimed by Chile, the UK and Argentina
[14:40] #knownspace> Hippy: At least for the moment. The treaty is up for negotiation this year, I think
[14:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: and the Falklands are central to those claims by the UK and Argentina
[14:40] #knownspace> fredskuentz: and the Falklands are tough :)
[14:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: if we see a war in the next 50 years, it may be a rehash of the Falklands
[14:40] #knownspace> Hippy: You'd think Argnetina would've given all that up, but they aren't
[14:41] #knownspace> Hippy: I'm still holding out for the Sino-Indian War
[14:41] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Huh. USA-HD's guide is down, all 'no data'
[14:41] #knownspace> Akiraa: a good war, to prop up a failing regime?
[14:41] #knownspace> Akiraa: we've seen it before :p
[14:41] #knownspace> fredskuentz: but they seem to be showing a series of increasingly bad Indiana Jones movies
[14:42] #knownspace> SeanS: indiana jone
[14:42] #knownspace> SeanS: s
[14:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, that was the Falklands
[14:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, Sean. How's it going?
[14:42] #knownspace> Akiraa: then again, the US may claim it all for themselves
[14:42] #knownspace> SeanS: Crusade was good but kingdom pretty much sucked
[14:42] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Hey Sean, thanks for the Chat Reminder
[14:42] #knownspace> fredskuentz: yes, Sean
[14:42] #knownspace> senax: The US doesn't claim any of it now.
[14:43] #knownspace> SeanS: my USA guide says Kingdom is next
[14:43] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I was watching the ad for Indiana Jones on Blu-ray a couple days ago
[14:43] #knownspace> Akiraa: it reserves the right for a future claim, senax
[14:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Kingdom sucked terribly. I haven't even been in a cinema since I saw it
[14:43] #knownspace> fredskuentz: and wondering how much they'd charge me to leave Kingdom off
[14:47] #knownspace> SeanS: National Treasure Book of Secrets after Kingdom
[14:47] #knownspace> fredskuentz: is that the second one?
[14:47] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah
[14:47] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I liked the first one
[14:47] #knownspace> fredskuentz: but I found it very annoying
[14:48] #knownspace> fredskuentz: that National Treasure is a way better Clive Cussler Dirk Pitt movie
[14:48] #knownspace> fredskuentz: that either of the official ones
[14:48] #knownspace> SeanS: sahara and raise the titanic?
[14:48] #knownspace> fredskuentz: yeah
[14:49] #knownspace> SeanS: I would not mind seeing raise the titanic redone competantly
[14:49] #knownspace> fredskuentz: What idjiot thought that SAHARA, the only one that isn't a water adventure, was the choice for starting a water adventure franchise?
[14:49] #knownspace> SeanS: no idea
[14:50] #knownspace> SeanS: well there is an underground river that is never seen
[14:50] #knownspace> fredskuentz: heh, yep
[14:50] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Raise the Titanic ... do you think you can get around the fact that it's sort of broken in half?
[14:50] #knownspace> Hippy: And a ship. That's kind of. . .watery
[14:51] #knownspace> SeanS: which one is it where dirk is in an underground river in the western US and eventually pops up in the sea of cortez?
[14:51] #knownspace> fredskuentz: lol, sean, I was just wondering that
[14:51] #knownspace> Hippy: Still, you'd think 'Raise The Titanic' would've been good to release this yera. Wait til April, I suppose
[14:51] #knownspace> fredskuentz: that was ... the second one I read. can't remember the title though.
[14:51] #knownspace> SeanS: me either
[14:51] #knownspace> fredskuentz: The first one I read was the one with the Nautilus
[14:51] #knownspace> fredskuentz: for obvious reasons
[14:52] #knownspace> SeanS: there is a dirk with a nautilus?
[14:52] #knownspace> SeanS: not kicking in the memory banks
[14:52] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Inca Gold
[14:52] #knownspace> fredskuentz: for the sea of cortez
[14:52] #knownspace> SeanS: i should load a bunch of the early ones on the kindle
[14:53] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Valhalla Rising for the Nautilus
[14:53] #knownspace> SeanS: all i can remember about the Mediterranean Caper is an old fish
[14:53] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I powered through them years ago
[14:54] #knownspace> fredskuentz: they do all sort of run together though
[14:54] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I think I (barely) finished the first Dirk Junior book and gave up
[14:55] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Ick. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull just started.
[14:55] #knownspace> SeanS: i have not tried any of the Clive (and some other guy) books
[14:55] #knownspace> fredskuentz: It's Clive's son
[14:55] #knownspace> fredskuentz: writing about Dirk's son
[14:55] #knownspace> SeanS: well the start is the best part... up until after you see the hat in shadow
[14:55] #knownspace> fredskuentz: The magic went away
[14:56] #knownspace> SeanS: there are others as well
[14:56] #knownspace> SeanS: paul kampikos or something
[14:56] #knownspace> fredskuentz: yeah, there are the lesser NUMA series
[14:56] #knownspace> fredskuentz: which read like, well, lesser NUMA series
[14:56] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[14:56] #knownspace> fredskuentz: exactly formula, just name changes
[14:57] #knownspace> fredskuentz: it's like when one comes in that isn't good enough they do a global name replace on the two lead characters and send it out
[14:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, that's 'KIngodm' too. Write by numbers
[14:57] #knownspace> Hippy: And for that matter, directed by one of those spinning needle on a disk things
[14:58] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I just bought a copy of "Spider-Man 3"
[14:58] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I feel so dirty
[14:58] #knownspace> Hippy: You should do
[14:58] #knownspace> Hippy: It's people like you that keep getting these things made
[14:58] #knownspace> fredskuentz: It's for a 7 year old's birthday party tomorrow
[14:58] #knownspace> fredskuentz: it was on his wish list
[14:58] #knownspace> Hippy: On a related note, who thinks the Oscars have lost all credibility?
[14:58] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I don't
[14:59] #knownspace> SeanS: when are they?
[14:59] #knownspace> fredskuentz: mostly because I never thought they had any to begin with
[14:59] #knownspace> fredskuentz: :)
[14:59] #knownspace> Hippy: They were a week or so ago
[14:59] #knownspace> fredskuentz: last weekend sean
[14:59] #knownspace> SeanS: oh, shows how much i care
[14:59] Larry has joined #knownspace
[14:59] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Hey Larry
[14:59] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Larry!
[14:59] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Happy March to you
[15:00] #knownspace> Larry: Hi, folk. I'm not sure how to answer the topic question.
[15:00] #knownspace> SeanS: Hi Larry
[15:01] #knownspace> Larry: Poul Anderson's is the biggest of future histories. That said, I fear his later novels got overly complicated and heavy for my taste.
[15:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Perhaps we could answer it for you :)
[15:01] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Is there another Sci-Fi universe as expansive as Known Space?
[15:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Does the CoDominium count as one of yours, Larry?
[15:02] #knownspace> Larry: I love Jack Vance's work. He built a lot of universes. "Planet of Peril" is among my favorites.
[15:02] #knownspace> Hippy: What about Dante?
[15:03] Lensman has joined #knownspace
[15:03] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Speaking of Doc Smith and his Lensman series
[15:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Larry!
[15:03] #knownspace> fredskuentz: :)
[15:03] #knownspace> Larry: I'll accept the CoDominium as mine after the discovery of the Moties. Before that--an all-human universe felt compressed.
[15:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi fen!
[15:04] #knownspace> Larry: Dante's universe isn't mine, it's borrowed. Like "Man of Steel/Woman of Kleenex": somebody else's.
[15:05] #knownspace> SeanS: good answer, Larry, I have tried several times to read the non-motie CoDominium books without success.
[15:05] #knownspace> Larry: I never touched Doc Smith's universes.
[15:06] #knownspace> Hippy: But did you like reading them?
[15:06] #knownspace> Larry: Poul Anderson's stories were always detailed, always convincing. I've tried (a little) to add his kind of detail to scenes. He wanted all senses involved.
[15:06] #knownspace> fredskuentz: No, but we have a Lensman here
[15:07] #knownspace> Larry: Did I like Doc Smith? evidently not much; I've read little of his.
[15:07] #knownspace> Lensman: There are at least two references to the LENSMAN series in Known Space stories.
[15:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Perhaps most notably in "ARM", where they discuss inertialessness.
[15:08] #knownspace> Hippy: Go, Lens. I'm curious about this
[15:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: Hippy: there's always Perry Rhodan
[15:08] #knownspace> fredskuentz: ooo, ooo, Tom Swift for me
[15:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: apparently, a space opera running for 50 years straight
[15:08] #knownspace> Larry: Lensman: were there? I'm not surprised. I knew that universe, a little. As for the inertia, there's room for speculation.
[15:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: very expansive
[15:09] #knownspace> Hippy: I think I read one Perry Rhodan back in the 1970;s. I had that eye removed in 2006
[15:10] #knownspace> SeanS: I dont think I have read any Rhodan
[15:10] #knownspace> Larry: I wanted a partial removal of inertia. Make rockets work better: move fuel at little cost.
[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: The other reference is in "Flatlander". Who can tell me the name of the passenger starship in which Bey arrives at Earth?
[15:11] #knownspace> Larry: I'm no way familiar with the Tom Swift universe.
[15:11] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Skylark?
[15:12] #knownspace> Larry: Simmons' "Hyperion" universe had a deus ex machina that kicked me right out.
[15:12] #knownspace> Lensman: I suppose as a "true" SF fan I should be ashamed of having read some several dozen "Perry Rhodan" novels, but they are responsible for introducing me to SF fandom. So they'll always have a soft spot in my heart.
[15:12] #knownspace> SeanS: Lensman
[15:13] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Heh, the incomplete concordance googled right up
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: SeanS takes the cigar.
[15:13] #knownspace> SeanS: no cigar for me, I looked
[15:13] #knownspace> fredskuentz: me too
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Cheaters!
[15:14] #knownspace> Larry: Otherwise Simmons is gripping.
[15:14] #knownspace> fredskuentz: you'd think a passenger line would have a series of Lensman ships in different colors
[15:14] #knownspace> fredskuentz: the way the cruise line has a bunch of 'princess' ships
[15:14] #knownspace> SeanS: I did actually have to get up and walk to the bookshelf in the bath.... er library
[15:14] #knownspace> Larry: Fred, they'd run out of colors.
[15:15] #knownspace> Hippy: The Pink Lensman, where special guys meet other special guys
[15:15] #knownspace> fredskuentz: hee hee
[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL
[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: "Doc" is rolling over in his grave.
[15:15] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Mauvelous Lensman (a shade of purple gray)
[15:15] #knownspace> Larry: :)
[15:15] #knownspace> Hippy: Doc doesn't understand about segmenting the market
[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: ROTFL
[15:16] #knownspace> Hippy: Black Lensman - all Afros and 70's decor
[15:17] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Red Lensman. All Commie, all the time.
[15:17] #knownspace> Larry: Black Lensman (politically correct, but turned pirate)
[15:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Actually there is a Black Lensman in the LENSMAN series. "Black" as in black-hearted, not as in race.
[15:17] #knownspace> Hippy: Green Lensman - the druve runs on biofuel and love
[15:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Tsk tsk Fred, the "Red" Lensman is a major character.
[15:17] #knownspace> Lensman: aka Clarissa MacDougal.
[15:18] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I had free associated to "Commies from Mars - the Red Planet"
[15:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, and that reminds me of a good radio series from the BBC - 'Atomic Tales'. Marvellous sendups of 50's SF
[15:19] #knownspace> SeanS: anybody else anticipating John Carter?
[15:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Curious that Doc introduced the idea of an anti-Lensman working for Boskone, but never followed up on it with any encounters between good and evil Lensmen.
[15:19] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Indiana is about to survive an atomic bomb by climbing into a refrigerator
[15:19] #knownspace> Hippy: I'm mildly curious
[15:19] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I think John Carter looks great
[15:19] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I think the title is galactically stupid
[15:19] #knownspace> fredskuentz: and I gather they've totally booted the plot
[15:20] #knownspace> SeanS: are you locked onto one channel, Fred?
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: My SF club is planning on a group outing to "John Carter"!
[15:20] #knownspace> Hippy: Ther'es only one channel where Fred is
[15:20] #knownspace> fredskuentz: looks like evil bald aliens are attacking mars and if the martians can't stop them they're headed for earth
[15:20] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I forget which book that's from ...
[15:20] #knownspace> SeanS: its been way too long since i read them
[15:20] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, that's turned me off
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: If Fred hates it, it must be a great movie! ;-)
[15:21] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I didn't say I hated it
[15:21] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I said it looks great
[15:21] #knownspace> fredskuentz: :P
[15:21] #knownspace> Larry: My nephew plans an expedition to see "John Carter". Hmm...but it's bound to be fun.
[15:21] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I'm supposed to take my niece and nephew to Journey 2
[15:21] #knownspace> Lensman: I re-read the first three Barsoom novels recently, so I'm somewhat familiar with the setting.
[15:22] #knownspace> Lensman: They're pretty short, quick reads.
[15:22] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Yeah, I powered through the first few
[15:22] #knownspace> fredskuentz: read 'em in a night or two
[15:22] #knownspace> fredskuentz: have them all on Kindle
[15:22] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I lost interest when it started being about his kids
[15:22] #knownspace> Lensman: I have the pbs with the Michael Wheelan wrap-around covers. Gorgeous!
[15:23] #knownspace> Lensman: I've never read all the series. I've been told the series declines in quality as it progresses.
[15:24] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Yeah. And then you get to the Venus books. :)
[15:25] #knownspace> SeanS: the jungle venus?
[15:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Kinda hard to take a series seriously, even as science fantasy, when a human can reproduce with an egg-laying Martian without any assistance from a test tube!
[15:25] #knownspace> Larry: What I remember (of Barsoom) was a trip to Jupiter. "Gravity was lighter than Earth. Scienists may disagree, but I was there adn I remember."
[15:25] #knownspace> fredskuentz: lol
[15:25] #knownspace> Hippy: Take that, science!
[15:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Science? We don' need no stinkin' science!
[15:26] NickE has joined #knownspace
[15:26] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I love that the rip off movie "Princess of Mars" beat John Carter to the screen by, what, 2 years?
[15:26] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[15:26] #knownspace> SeanS: Hi Nick
[15:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Nick
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: hi. just got in
[15:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Nick.
[15:27] #knownspace> SeanS: I am just glad the server is here. had a super cell go right over top of the house yesterday about 6pm. luckily no tornado formed.
[15:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Anybody object if I change the subject to Known Space? I'd like to talk about partial inertialessness.
[15:27] #knownspace> fredskuentz: ick. Shia LaBoof just showed up.
[15:27] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Time to change the channel.
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: whoa. hear it's bad in many places
[15:28] #knownspace> Lensman: I've been corresponding with Doug... what's his last name... dmac.
[15:28] #knownspace> Hippy: Go for it, Lens
[15:29] #knownspace> NickE: KS good
[15:29] #knownspace> Larry: When I sent the first draft of "ARM" to John Campbell, I got a long letter back. He didn't like partial inertia at all. Doc Smith said you could cancel it, and that was that.
[15:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Doug points out that in RINGWORLD the /Liar/ cannot carry enough fuel to back into the Ringworld star system from 80% lightspeed, assuming it's using reaction mass in inboard tanks. Of course it uses reactionless thrusters, but even still.
[15:30] #knownspace> Larry: Me, I can't see life surviving under inertialess conditions. A man would become an aerosol instantly.
[15:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: Then Mr. Campbell was wrong. Doc cited partial inertialessness in "Triplanetary".
[15:30] #knownspace> fredskuentz: How can Doug do the math on the fuel efficiency of the Lying Bastard?
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: yep, I always assumed stuff would just fly apart
[15:30] #knownspace> SeanS: Liar backed in on fusion drive with the reactionless thrusters augmenting
[15:30] #knownspace> Larry: aha
[15:30] #knownspace> Lensman: The Nevians used partial inertialessness; they hadn't invented the Bergenholm.
[15:31] #knownspace> Lensman: SeanS: That's right, the /Liar/ also used fusion thrusters. I was gonna ignore that for simplicity sake, but yes.
[15:31] #knownspace> fredskuentz: is it canon that the liar had reactionless thrusters?
[15:31] #knownspace> fredskuentz: were they on the wing too?
[15:32] #knownspace> SeanS: Needle was just reactionless but it came from Canyon, not the Fleet
[15:32] #knownspace> SeanS: Fred: yep
[15:32] #knownspace> NickE: everything was on teh wing aparet from teh hyper shunt
[15:32] #knownspace> Lensman: What I suggested to Larry in an e-mail was that the Puppeteers are using (partial) inertialessness, but I guess Larry doesnt' want to be pinned down on the question.
[15:32] #knownspace> Larry: Liar did, though I don't remember saying so.
[15:32] #knownspace> Lensman: So I'll throw it out to the group: How does the /Liar/ "cheat"?
[15:32] #knownspace> SeanS: there was a line like speaker tilted the reactionless thrusters in line and added their thrust to the fusion drive
[15:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, it's canon the /Liar/ had reactionless thrusters.
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: We might also speculate that after /Juggler of Worlds/, Baedecker invents small thrusters that use zero-point energy of the vacuum. But I hate to swipe from a much later book to explain something in RINGWORLD.
[15:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Nick: Are you suggesting the fuel tanks were on the wing? Okay, but remember the /Liar/ was able to use its hyperdrive without it, so I assume there was at least an auxiliary inboard fuel tank.
[15:35] #knownspace> fredskuentz: Yep, Louis has flat thruster discs on the wing
[15:35] #knownspace> fredskuentz: uses 'em for take off
[15:36] #knownspace> Hippy: . . ..A John Carter Adventure
[15:36] #knownspace> fredskuentz: So they started out with 'princess of mars'
[15:36] #knownspace> NickE: well, might be a silly question, but does the shunt use fuel - other than in terms of electical power - presumably from some internal fusion generator?
[15:36] #knownspace> senax: Topic sounds like the title of a book about politicians.
[15:37] #knownspace> fredskuentz: and dropped 'princess' because market research said boys won't go to a movie with 'princess' in the title
[15:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Of course, if the /Liar/ is using partial inertialessness, then the Puppeteers have figured out how to compensate for the side-effects of greatly increased chemical reactions and mechanical movement... the side effects that makes it look like time has been speeded up inside the field.
[15:37] #knownspace> fredskuentz: and then dropped 'mars' because market research said girls won't go to a movie with 'mars' in the title
[15:37] #knownspace> Hippy: But they would go to one with 'Lying Bastard' in it
[15:37] dmac44 has joined #knownspace
[15:37] #knownspace> dmac44: hi guys
[15:37] #knownspace> fredskuentz: dmac
[15:37] #knownspace> NickE: I always assumed that it was some kind of field generator that allowed access to hyperspace and motive power once there
[15:38] #knownspace> Akiraa: Greg Egan's upcoming book features a universe where time dilation is reversed, but, making infinite speeds possible
[15:38] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[15:38] #knownspace> SeanS: ok, princess of mars looks completely horrible.
[15:38] #knownspace> Akiraa: also, red light travels slower than blue light
[15:39] #knownspace> Akiraa: http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/ORTHOGONAL/00/PM.html
[15:39] #knownspace> Hippy: I vaguely recall teading about that on Amazon
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: From "The Borderland of Sol":
[15:39] #knownspace> Hippy: I should also say "Greg Egan! Local boy!! Whoop!' but I won't
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Nothing. Not even an exit hole. The superconductingcables and the mounts for the motor had been sheared so cleanly that thecut ends looked like little mirrors.
[15:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: is there a bounty on the photo of Greg Egan? or are sci-fi writers uninteresting to tabloids?
[15:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: he supposedly has no photos posted on the internet
[15:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Superconducting cables suggests a power feed to me. At any rate, I presume it takes some sort of power to run a hyperdrive shunt, even a Puppeteer hyperdrive shunt. I could be wrong. But we know the /Liar/ had power, anyway, even after the wing was gone.
[15:41] #knownspace> SeanS: all the drives and sensors were on the wing. Tankage was internal.
[15:41] #knownspace> Hippy: The GP hull uses a small motor to strengthen the molecular bonds
[15:41] #knownspace> Hippy: So it must have power if only for that
[15:41] #knownspace> SeanS: other than the hyperdrive that is
[15:42] #knownspace> dmac44: I believe the GP hull power plant was seperate from the hyperdrive shunt power plant.
[15:42] #knownspace> Hippy: That would make sense
[15:42] #knownspace> SeanS: you are over disecting this, Lensman.
[15:43] #knownspace> Larry: dmac44: so do I
[15:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Nick: You might like to read the "Hyperspace Theory & Practice" article at the Incompleat Known Space Concordance. No drive is necessary for propulsion in hyperspace. Everything moves at quantum speeds.
[15:43] #knownspace> Lensman: The GP motor's power source is internal.
[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Consider the name "hyperdrive shunt". That suggests to me that the purpose of the hyperdrive is to thrust a "bubble" of normal space into hyperspace, and keep it there. If the hyperdrive fails, you fall out into normal space. Ed says the same in one of the OF WORLDS books.
[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: It takes energy; you have to keep pushing on the bubble of normal space to keep it from falling out.
[15:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, if it takes energy it presumably takes fuel
[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Carlos Wu doesn't seem to agree, as he says in "The Borderland of Sol" that the hyperdrive wrapped a higher quantum level of hyperspace around itself and headed for the edge of the universe.
[15:48] #knownspace> Hippy: I don't think those theories are inconsistent
[15:49] #knownspace> Lensman: It could be consistant, I agree. It may be that if you get to a high enough quantum level, you don't fall out. Perhaps the /Long Shot/ has to push itself back into Einsteinian space?
[15:49] #knownspace> Hippy: The drive wraps quantum 1 hyperspace around the bubble of normal space
[15:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm, nested bubbles.
[15:50] #knownspace> Hippy: The Long Shot wraps quantum 2 hyperspace around a bubble of normal space
[15:50] #knownspace> SeanS: at a high enough quantum, the energy locked in the drive at the time it vanishes may be enough to send it to the end of the universe... or at the very least, outside of the ability to find it.
[15:50] #knownspace> Akiraa: hyperspace is a convenient concept
[15:51] #knownspace> Lensman: But Occam's Razor may suggest that the /Hobo Kelly/'s hyperdrive shunt just went a small distance in some higher quantum level before falling out. They'd never find it, out in the Borderland.
[15:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Hang on. Which two explanations are equally likely?
[15:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: (1) That if the power to the shunt fails, you immediately fall out into Einsteinian space, and (2) that at a high quantum level of hyperspace, you don't fall out
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, okay
[15:54] #knownspace> Larry: it's the GRADIENT around a small black hole that sent just the hyperdrive motor into Quantum High travel. A lesser gradient would take the whole ship.
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: On that basis I'd go for option 1
[15:55] #knownspace> Lensman: But that doesn't answer the question about the /Liar/ and it's apparently impossible mass/energy ratio.
[15:55] #knownspace> Lensman: ...its...
[15:56] #knownspace> SeanS: Fred you could put on syfy... the movie description: Carney 2009 A devilish creature escapes from a carnival to wreak havoc on a small town.
[15:56] #knownspace> Lensman: On the whole, I suppose zero-point energy is a less messy fanfix. Requires fewer added explanations.
[15:56] #knownspace> Hippy: So a less steep gradient might take the ship and surrounding area. Something like the Smoke Ring
[15:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Wow! What a movie! By the synopsis, I'm glad I'm 12000 miles from it
[15:58] #knownspace> SeanS: Hippy: You should have Fred email you his review of the syfy hit from hell: Earthstorm
[15:58] #knownspace> dmac44: Except wouldn't Speaker realize that the ship was using some very advanced energy production system? Since he tried to steal Long Shot he'd be even more intent on stealing Liar.
[15:59] #knownspace> fredskuentz: it's on Amazon :)
[15:59] #knownspace> Hippy: Fred, I'd be interested to read that
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: But when I read that Ed had invoked zero-point energy, my immediate thought was "He's stolen the 'cosmic power' from the LENSMAN series; he's just given it a different name!" In both cases it's a limitless source of free energy. Seems rather a cheat to me.
[16:00] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac, you have pointed to the feet of clay of my argument.
[16:00] #knownspace> SeanS: you pasted that into an earthstorm review on amazon?
[16:01] #knownspace> fredskuentz: that's what it was written for
[16:01] #knownspace> fredskuentz: http://www.amazon.com/review/RZ3BL7QS3S1Y1/ref=cm_cr_dp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000PFU85M&nodeID=2625373011&tag=&linkCode=
[16:01] #knownspace> SeanS: ah, ok
[16:01] #knownspace> fredskuentz: "cute shorts girl" now has her own syfy series, LOST GIRL
[16:02] #knownspace> Larry: "zero point energy" is respectable. You can play with it. My thought: using energy of the vacuum gets you less vacuum: space shrinks.
[16:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: so other than Egan, are there any scifi writers who delve into alternate physics?
[16:02] #knownspace> Akiraa: alternate, but consistent
[16:03] #knownspace> Lensman: No, wait... I take that back dmac. It was the /Needle/ which was said to have nothing aboard which couldn't have been bought in Human Space. Not the /Liar/.
[16:03] #knownspace> SeanS: michael mccollum has the antares series where he uses 'foldpoints' to get around. cant tell the difference between them and alderson points
[16:03] #knownspace> Lensman: As far as Speaker hijacking the /Liar/... well, we don't know what hidden safety mechanisms the Puppeteers installed, did we?
[16:04] #knownspace> SeanS: he didnt want to hijack liar. he wanted to hijack the Long Shot
[16:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, are you giving your blessing to the thrusters on the /Liar/ using zero-point energy? Or is that something you'd rather not give a definitive answer to?
[16:06] #knownspace> Xenovalent: hi folks. have we figured out what the /Liar/ uses in place of kidneys yet?
[16:06] #knownspace> Larry: Just between us...yeah, zero point energy works for thrusters, unless you folk see why it could not.
[16:06] #knownspace> dmac44: SeanS: Speaker wanted to hijack the Long Shot for its Quantum 2 advantage it'd give the Kzinti in the next war with Man. He would have seen a similar advantage in stealing a space ship that used zero point energy.
[16:06] #knownspace> Xenovalent: (just joking, of course)
[16:07] EML has joined #knownspace
[16:07] #knownspace> SeanS: hi Ed
[16:07] #knownspace> EML: Hi, everyone/
[16:07] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi Ed.
[16:07] #knownspace> Larry: Hi, Ed.
[16:08] #knownspace> EML: I didn't mean to make everyone stop talking :-)
[16:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Beautifully done, Fred
[16:09] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry: The only problem I see with Thrusters using zero point energy is that they are used and built by humans. It doesn't seem that humans have that level of technology in Known Space.
[16:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Ed
[16:10] #knownspace> Larry: Ed, you missed a lot of conversation on what drives a thruster (as of RINGWORLD.) We've nearly settled on zero point energy.
[16:10] #knownspace> Xenovalent: could be tech bought from Outsiders
[16:10] #knownspace> Xenovalent: humans might not entirely understand it
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Ed! Are your ears burning?
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Human thrusters don't accelerate a ship at 200 gees!
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Humans are not using advanced Puppeteer thrusters.
[16:11] #knownspace> SeanS: I dont understand why this has even come up with the liar. Nessus specifically says that everything on the wing on Liar is run by stuff in the conduit that is pulled back to enter stasis. it includes information cables and fuel lines. information is said specifically and fuel is implied. anyway, the fusion drives on the wing will need hydrogen pumped to them.
[16:11] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: No but they can do 10 or 20 gee which is respectable.
[16:12] #knownspace> EML: In Juggler, Baedeker discovers that the planetary drives -- Outsider technology -- tap the zero-point energy.
[16:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, Louis' ship in "There Is a Tide" does a bit over 20 gees.
[16:12] #knownspace> Larry: Here's what I actually had when I wrote the stories. In Beowulf's time there was fusion power. I believed something new would emerge in 200 years' time. It was thrusters, and I never described them well.
[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: And we can't assume that the /Liar/ has typical thrusters even for Puppeteers. It's an experimental ship, remember.
[16:13] #knownspace> EML: I won't be specific, but there'll be more about progress with thrusters in Fate of Worlds.
[16:14] #knownspace> SeanS: sure we can... the fusion drive was the primary motive power for backing into the ringworld system. the thrusters just augmented it.
[16:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Yes, I brought up the fact that you brought zero-point energy into the Known Space series. It might explain how advanced Puppeteer thrusters achieve an apparently impossible mass/thrust ratio.
[16:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: The alternative explanation is partial inertialessness, which at least does have a foundation in a story Larry wrote. But zero-point energy is a "neater" explanation, that doesn't appear to pose more questions than it answers. Partial inertialessness is... messy.
[16:16] #knownspace> EML: what's a little messiness among friends?
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean: No, the thrusters were the primary source of delta-V, overwhelmingly so. The thrusters were more of aid for signaling and lighting the underside of the Ring. The amount of fuel carried by the /Liar/ can't have been that much compared to the reaction mass necessary to slow from 80% lightspeed.
[16:18] #knownspace> Hippy: How did they get to 80% lightspeed in the first place?
[16:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: Well, Larry seems to prefer zero point energy as an explanation, so I guess I'll go with that as my fan theory.
[16:18] #knownspace> Lensman: The /Liar/ took off from the Fleet of Worlds/, which was going at near-lightspeed. Not sure if Rw specifies 80% lightspeed or not.
[16:18] #knownspace> Akiraa: you know one possible consequence of ZPE
[16:18] #knownspace> Akiraa: false vacuum
[16:19] #knownspace> Akiraa: I mean exploitable energy for work
[16:19] #knownspace> Akiraa: false vacuum collapse as a universal danger
[16:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yes, Lens. Sorry. I was thinking of the Long Shot (again)
[16:19] #knownspace> dmac44: Of course if the vacuum drops to a lower energy level all hell will break out in the universe.
[16:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Oops... the fusion drive was more an aid for signalling and lighting. (And, unused, a weapon.)
[16:20] #knownspace> SeanS: Hippy: a puppeteer ship met up with the Long Shot and picked up the crew. then zipped them up to Fleet speed. apparently with a reactionless inertialess drive.
[16:20] #knownspace> EML: ZPR for the planetary drive doesn't IMO translate to ZPE in thrusters.
[16:20] #knownspace> Akiraa: it assumes there's a lower energy level
[16:21] #knownspace> Hippy: Yep, Sean. It took me a while to remember that.
[16:21] #knownspace> dmac44: Akiraa: True.
[16:21] #knownspace> Akiraa: how about a premise of vacuum energy as contemporary nuclear energy
[16:21] #knownspace> Larry: Nobody's mentioned gravity drag. (I didn't either, but--) That would slow a shp from 80% lightspeed. Need a fin to radiate heat.
[16:22] #knownspace> Akiraa: useful but dangerous energy
[16:22] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: My assumption was that Baedecker or other Puppeteer engineers figure out how to miniaturize the Outsider planetary drive to create advanced Puppeteer thrusters. We need no assume the Puppeteers used them on all their ships; it's specifically stated that the /Liar/ is a prototype starship.
[16:22] #knownspace> SeanS: forgot about the gravity drag
[16:22] #knownspace> Akiraa: with, say, an assumption that a vacuum collapse runs out of steam after a while
[16:22] #knownspace> dmac44: I guess you could assume that Outsider tech is designed to suck energy out of space-time only at a rate that the universe can repair itself and not collapse into a lower energy state.
[16:22] #knownspace> EML: Sorry ... I was off (trying to) look something up.
[16:22] #knownspace> Akiraa: so it won't engulf the whole universe
[16:23] #knownspace> Akiraa: but still dangerous to make large sections of space uninhabitable
[16:23] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, the fin is there on Liar, and the gravity drag has canonical support
[16:24] #knownspace> dmac44: The amout of energy that the fin would have to radiate is astronomical.
[16:24] #knownspace> Hippy: That's why it's in space :)
[16:24] #knownspace> Lensman: True, in "Flatlander", Bey and Elephant use a gravity drag to slow down from 80% lightspeed. But according to JUGGLER OF WORLDS they had to circle back thru hyperspace over and over again to slow down. The /Liar/ did not.
[16:24] #knownspace> SeanS: yes, Lens, but it specifically states that the experimental part was minimizing the breaks in the hull.
[16:24] #knownspace> EML: As for thruster tech ... we're free AFAIK to speculate where it came from. Nothing in the Fleet series says thrusters are Puppeteer trade goods. Larry, do you recall ever saying who invented them?
[16:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean: Shockingly, I don't think Nessus necessarily told all the secrets of the /Liar/ to the explorers.
[16:25] #knownspace> SeanS: If I was a puppeteer, I would not realease that kind of advance tech to the explorers
[16:26] #knownspace> SeanS: in fact, Needle, the Hindmost's own ship did not have that kind of tech.
[16:26] #knownspace> Hippy: I think thrusters are referred to as Outsider drives somewhere
[16:26] #knownspace> SeanS: you would figure he would have that baddest stuff he had access too.
[16:26] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Flatlander' , I think
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: -/Needle/ may have been purchased in Human Space, or at least the components for it.
[16:27] #knownspace> Larry: Never did deal with invention of thrusters.
[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: -/Needle/ was a clandestine project, not approved by the Concordance.
[16:27] #knownspace> SeanS: the drive was melty... the ship he fled the fleet of worlds.
[16:27] #knownspace> SeanS: all the landers and such were purchased in human space
[16:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Contrariwise, the /Needle/ does have that AI... "Hindmost's voice", which Puppeteers otherwise shy away from.
[16:29] #knownspace> EML: The ship that brought Louis et al to the Fleet wasn't quite reactionless -- I found the quote I was looking for.
[16:29] #knownspace> EML: The Long Shot, on fusion drives alone, would have required months to matchvelocities with the puppeteer "fleet". The puppeteer ship had done it inless than an hour, blinking into existence alongside the Long Shot withher access tube already reaching like a glass snake toward the Long Shot'sairlock.
[16:30] #knownspace> EML: Lens: the provenance of Hindmost's Voice will become clear in Fate of Worlds.
[16:30] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, a reactionless ship would of matched in an instant
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: From RINGWORLD ENGINEERS:
[16:31] #knownspace> SeanS: oops.. inertialess i meant
[16:32] #knownspace> Lensman: The kzin stopped eating long enough to say, "Every piece of equipment aboard was built by humans, or could have been built by humans. Even the hull could have been bought on any human world."
[16:32] #knownspace> SeanS: and the next line?
[16:32] #knownspace> SeanS: from Louis?
[16:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Now, Sean is corect in saying the hyperdrive had the Puppeteer half-melted look. I have no opinion on this apparent inconsistancy.
[16:32] #knownspace> SeanS: can i do it from memory? Look beneath your feet.
[16:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: there is always the escape of abandoning consistency and just calling it a "many-worlds universe"
[16:33] #knownspace> EML: Kzinti sour grapes (or rotten meat)?
[16:33] #knownspace> Hippy: Er, why not buy a puppeteere drive on a human world? Nothing onconsistent there
[16:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: "if things look inconsistent, just consider them two separate timelines"
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Next line? I don't take your meaning, Sean. The next line has nothing to do with the subject.
[16:33] #knownspace> SeanS: ok, I will get out my copy
[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, it's a line on the next page.
[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: The kzin knelt. "Urrr ... yes. Puppeteers built the hyperdrive shunt. This is the ship in which the Hindmost fled from the Fleet of Worlds." "You forgot the stepping discs, too. The puppeteers don't use them anywhere but on their own world."
[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: So Chmeee's assessment was premature.
[16:36] #knownspace> Hippy: Problem solved
[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: My bad.
[16:37] #knownspace> SeanS: its a big universe.
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Indeed it is!
[16:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed: I pointed out something similar to Larry. In "Flatlander", Bey says the Outsider ship decelarates from 80% lightspeed in 2 or 3 minutes. If it was true inertialessness, it would have been an instant deceleration. But A GIFT FROM EARTH says some Outsiders have inertialess drive; I am guessing they have an advanced form of Sinclair's low-inertia field (from "ARM").
[16:40] #knownspace> dmac44: So the Outsiders are trying to save the universe from the BIG RIP. :) If their drives pulls energy out of the vacuum and causes the vacuum to shrink. Gives a reason for them not using hyperspace.
[16:40] #knownspace> EML: all-but-inertialess drive is pretty scary-advanced.
[16:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry specifically stated to me that human thruster tech is a development of the Kzinti gravity planer... which humans improved to be the gravity polarizer, during the MKW.
[16:42] #knownspace> EML: Personally, if the Outsiders can slow the rate of expansion of the universe -- i.e., fight the ravages of dark energy -- I'm all for it.
[16:42] #knownspace> dmac44: Every Outsider does their part. :)
[16:43] #knownspace> Lensman: But probably Puppeteers already had thruster tech before humans. Whether they bought it from the Outsiders, invented it themselves, or acquired it from another trade partner long ago... who knows?
[16:43] #knownspace> EML: As the Bard might have said ... They also serve who only stand and chill.
[16:43] #knownspace> dmac44: lol
[16:44] ronn has joined #knownspace
[16:44] #knownspace> EML: No matter how good the thrusters, one also needs good gravity and/or inertia control ... or else the passengers get smashed flat. Hence (in JOW), Nessus schemes to find out how good ARM cabin gravity is ...
[16:44] #knownspace> SeanS: HI ronn
[16:44] #knownspace> ronn: Hi, all
[16:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, cabin gravity is another problem. Of course, partial inertialessness would solve that... but then you have to figure out how to counteract how partial inertialessness speeds up mechanical movement, chemical reactions, and pretty near everything except the speed of light.
[16:46] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, no sense having a drive that pushes 20 gravs if when you turn it on you basically become a smear on the aft wall.
[16:46] #knownspace> Larry: exactly, SeanS.
[16:47] #knownspace> Lensman: I did bring up with Larry the bit with a Kzinti ship in "The Warriors" accelerating at 200 gees, asking if the Kzinti really have cabin gravity that good. He said they must have had, altho he also said perhaps it reacts slowly. No ultra-high-gee evasive maneuvers!
[16:47] #knownspace> Larry: It's why I didn't delve too deep into the implications of a low-inertia drive.
[16:49] #knownspace> Larry: Simmicks I needed for one short story have been coming back to bite me for forty-odd years.
[16:49] AlexA has joined #knownspace
[16:49] #knownspace> SeanS: Simmicks?
[16:49] #knownspace> Larry: Gimmicks.
[16:49] #knownspace> SeanS: heh... i am pretty good at reading typos but that one eluded me
[16:50] #knownspace> SeanS: Hi Alex
[16:50] #knownspace> EML: standalone stories are safer that way ...
[16:50] #knownspace> ronn: S[tupid g]immicks? ;)
[16:50] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL
[16:50] #knownspace> EML: :-)
[16:50] #knownspace> Larry: S(ensational G)immicks.
[16:50] #knownspace> dmac44: lol
[16:50] #knownspace> ronn: Much better
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Annoying gimmicks. "If they have stasis fields, then why don't they use them for just about everything?"
[16:51] #knownspace> Larry: S(emiprobable G)immicks.
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: S(uperlative G)immicks.
[16:52] #knownspace> AlexA: Hi all
[16:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Alex!
[16:52] #knownspace> Larry: Hi AlexA.
[16:52] #knownspace> Hippy: I think Sensational still wins
[16:52] #knownspace> EML: with apologies to the Gershwins ... 'S(wonderful G)immicks
[16:53] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Alex (sorry, zoning out a bit, knackered)
[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: But the true meaning is S(uperscience G)immicks.
[16:53] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:53] #knownspace> Hippy: It's morning here, so I'm bright, chirpy and still sober
[16:53] #knownspace> Larry: I'm dropping out for lunch. Fare you all well.
[16:54] #knownspace> NickE: bye Larry
[16:54] #knownspace> SeanS: Thanks for stopping in Larry.
[16:54] #knownspace> dmac44: Bye Larry.
[16:54] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Bye, Larry. This has been damn good fun
[16:54] #knownspace> EML: Bye Larry
[16:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanks Larry! Goodbye.
[16:54] #knownspace> AlexA: Bye Larry
[16:54] #knownspace> ronn: Bye, Larry!
[16:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Great to have an actual honest to goodness Niven universe chat. All too rare.
[16:55] #knownspace> AlexA: Hope that wasn't my fault :)
[16:55] #knownspace> SeanS: nope
[16:55] #knownspace> AlexA: What did I miss?
[16:55] #knownspace> SeanS: he usually drops out about now
[16:55] #knownspace> NickE: indeed (even if I'm not adding much)
[16:55] #knownspace> Lensman: An I thank dmac for inspiring me to raise the question.
[16:55] #knownspace> Hippy: It's usually me that drags the topic off of physics
[16:56] #knownspace> EML: Larry's off to lunch ... I have a few things to tend to before dinner.
[16:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: You missed an discussion of how the /Liar/ achieves an impossible mass/energy ratio, when it backs into the Ringworld star system from 80% lightspeed on thrusters and fusion drive.
[16:56] #knownspace> SeanS: you out too, Ed?
[16:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Also some discussion of how thrusters work, or don't.
[16:56] #knownspace> EML: yeah, momentarily.
[16:56] #knownspace> dmac44: Thanks for stopping by Ed.
[16:57] #knownspace> EML: My pleasure. A good thrust to the converstaion this month :-)
[16:57] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[16:57] #knownspace> AlexA: Ah
[16:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Now it's just we squeeing fanboys
[16:58] #knownspace> AlexA: Was any plausible explaination concluded on?
[16:58] #knownspace> SeanS: more possibilities than conclusions
[16:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Larry mentioned the gravity drag, but admitted he hadn't in 'Ringworld'
[17:00] #knownspace> ronn: Drat. I had a question I was typing. Maybe someone else can offer an opinion . . .
[17:00] #knownspace> ronn: Lensman's question brings up something I was thinking of a few days ago . . . how does (or even just "Does") a stasis field work with a hole in it? Frex, in "Borderland of Sol" (sorry if this is offtopic today) it says that some of the beams holding up the grabber are re-inforced with stasis fields . . . how are they connected to the non-reinforced parts? And what effect does a hole in...
[17:00] #knownspace> ronn: ...the stasis field to allow something to pass through have on the object inside the stasis field? Can it — even organics or living creatures — still last practically forever (at least gigayears) unchanged from when it went in?
[17:00] #knownspace> SeanS: on a techy note... the server has given me a couple of errors... anybody want to donate some unused stuff?
[17:01] #knownspace> ronn: You want stuff that's been sitting under the table since I went from Win 98 to XP? :D
[17:01] #knownspace> SeanS: thats almost what it is running on now
[17:01] #knownspace> Hippy: So, what, an unused drive?
[17:02] #knownspace> SeanS: the errors were drive related and i am out of drives
[17:02] #knownspace> Hippy: How much is a new drive?
[17:02] #knownspace> SeanS: the server currently runs on a 500 mhz P3
[17:03] #knownspace> SeanS: I might be getting a pc or two that a local business upgraded from. just floating the thought
[17:03] #knownspace> AlexA: Re stasis fields - I assumed they were shaped to interlock with non-stasis parts like jigsaw pieces
[17:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, so you need a whole new PC?
[17:03] #knownspace> AlexA: I have some ancient pcs in my garage
[17:03] #knownspace> SeanS: i am mainly worried about the age of the hardware
[17:04] #knownspace> AlexA: 10GB SCSI drive, AMD K6 CPUs IIRC
[17:04] #knownspace> SeanS: what form of scsi? i actually have a 9 and 80 gig scsi drive sitting around
[17:05] #knownspace> ronn: Me, too . . . of the hardware I'm running on right now . . . :/
[17:05] #knownspace> SeanS: nothing scsi to connect them to.
[17:06] #knownspace> AlexA: Old so probably SCSI 1
[17:06] #knownspace> SeanS: i think these drives are 80 pin... i do not even know if they would spin up
[17:06] #knownspace> AlexA: I have cards to go with them - what was bus before PCI?
[17:07] #knownspace> SeanS: isa
[17:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: Larry seems to like the idea of zero-point energy, which Ed put into JUGGLER OF WORLDS to explain where the Outsider planetary drive gets its power from.
[17:07] #knownspace> ronn: "Greyhound"
[17:07] #knownspace> AlexA: Yeah the SCSI cards are ISA bus
[17:07] #knownspace> AlexA: Any use?
[17:08] #knownspace> Lensman: ronn: The structural beams in Forward's base could have used entirely mechanical connections to other structural supports.
[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: You could have a bolt sticking out from the beam, it would be included in the stasis field.
[17:09] #knownspace> AlexA: Lensman: Zero-point energy was my initial thought
[17:10] #knownspace> Lensman: As far as having a hole in a stasis field: Perhaps the field would then only enclose the conducting surface. Like a variable-sword, but two-dimensonal instead of one-dimensional.
[17:10] #knownspace> Lensman: No reason you couldn't have an invulnerable stasis field shield, is there?
[17:10] #knownspace> AlexA: Stasis fields form on conductive surface - if other parts are non-conductive then could interlock
[17:11] #knownspace> Lensman: You can wrap the shield around your ship or base, just leave a hole to squirt heat out of... and stick a sensor cluster out, so you can see the outside world.
[17:11] #knownspace> AlexA: I think stasis field must enclose a 3d volume, shut could be a donut etc
[17:12] #knownspace> AlexA: Don't think a hole for sensing etc matches what we know from KS stories
[17:12] #knownspace> Lensman: If humans didn't use the stasis field as an invulnerable shield during the Man-Kzin Wars, then they were not nearly as smart as I think we are. We know that the Kzinti used them to protect bases during the Third War, from the first chapter in RINGWORLD ENGINEERS.
[17:12] #knownspace> ronn: Lensman: And then you have the climax of "Star Wars" . . . (targeting a small hole to destroy the interior)
[17:13] #knownspace> Lensman: A variable-sword is not a three-dimensional volume, unless you consider the tiny volume of the monofiliment.
[17:13] #knownspace> dmac44: Stasis fields solve too many problems. I think that's why in th MKW stories the authors assumed that they werre hard to make.
[17:13] #knownspace> Lensman: A variable-sword field is essentiall one-dimensional, unless it includes the guard.
[17:13] #knownspace> ronn: But that indeed is a finite volume, not a mathematical line.
[17:14] #knownspace> Lensman: ronn: Then the same argument applies for the shield you wrap the stasis field around.
[17:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Even a flat shield is three dimensional, if you look closely enough.
[17:15] #knownspace> Lensman: Now, curve the flat shield into a cup shape, or a cylinder with just a small opening at one end. (Fun with topology!(
[17:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, Pournelle and Stirling in "The Asteroid Queen" assume stasis fields are incredibly difficult to build... ignoring the canon. In WOP, humans invent the "time retarder field", which is a quantum I stasis field.
[17:17] #knownspace> AlexA: Good point - so you hide at the bottom of the cup - protected by stasis but not IN stasis :)
[17:17] #knownspace> dmac44: A coffee cup and a donut have the same topological relationship.
[17:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: Exactly.
[17:18] #knownspace> Lensman: As dmac says, it then becomes problematic for the Kzinti to threaten Humans.
[17:18] #knownspace> AlexA: Removes the tactical problem of stasis - once your in stasis, you're out of the battle
[17:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Yet we know the Kzinti themselves were using stasis fields to protect entire military bases by the Third War with Men. So presumably the humans used them in the wars, too.
[17:19] #knownspace> dmac44: Seems likely.
[17:19] #knownspace> Lensman: But Bey suggests that you can wrap a stasis field around something without embedding it in stasis, in "Ghost".
[17:20] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: ref page?
[17:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Or at least, that's my interpretation... it's confusing.
[17:20] #knownspace> Lensman: A minute please...
[17:20] #knownspace> AlexA: I don't recall that
[17:22] #knownspace> Lensman: CRASHLANDER p. 105
[17:22] #knownspace> dmac44: of course if stasis fields were so easy to make why were Bey, et. al. traveling in cold sleep in "Procrustes"?
[17:22] #knownspace> AlexA: Suprising that neither LN or MKW authors have used a "stasis cup"
[17:23] #knownspace> Lensman: ...the current plan calls for a base on the planet." I laughed. "Oh, sure!" He grinned at me. "Set on a metal dish in stasis, inside a roller sphere also in stasis. It is antimatter, after all."
[17:23] #knownspace> AlexA: dmac44: I guess they're expensive?
[17:23] #knownspace> ronn: And such a stasis field on a surface with a hole in it would not protect the person/other living thing(s) inside against extreme acceleration (e.g., when LB hits the RW) or the passage of time . . .
[17:24] #knownspace> Lensman: I find the idea of cold sleep to be quite bizarre. Heck, even in WOP the idea of dolphins traveling on a starship in stasis is mentioned.
[17:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Cold sleep doesn't seem to fit Known Space.
[17:24] #knownspace> AlexA: Cold sleep is KS equivalent of "steerage"?
[17:24] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: It does before WOP (i.e., in Kzinti history).
[17:25] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Sure, pre-stasis field tech it makes sense.
[17:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Stasis fields are so expensive that the danger of freezing and thawing passengers is cheaper? How did Julian Forward afford multiple stasis fields in his asteroid base, then?
[17:26] #knownspace> dmac44: Gov't grant? :)
[17:26] #knownspace> SeanS: either that or being a super scientist he built them himself from scraps
[17:27] #knownspace> Hippy: They were also small stasis fields
[17:27] #knownspace> SeanS: I am sure tony stark could do it. ;)
[17:27] #knownspace> AlexA: Isn't Forward's source of funds mentionned in one of the of Worlds
[17:28] #knownspace> SeanS: i think he was funded by the institute of knowledge on Jinx but got cut off. thats why he turned to piracy
[17:28] #knownspace> dmac44: Hippy: I don't know. Most stasis boxes are small. Structural elements holding a quantum black hole would be larger.
[17:28] Jim has joined #knownspace
[17:28] #knownspace> SeanS: Hi Jim
[17:29] #knownspace> dmac44: In Worlds Forward was secretly funded by the Puppetteers.
[17:29] #knownspace> Jim: Has Larry been in today?
[17:29] #knownspace> Hippy: Yep
[17:29] #knownspace> Hippy: He told us he missed you :)
[17:29] #knownspace> AlexA: dmac44: Right - so no problem funding stasis
[17:29] #knownspace> Lensman: I suppose you could argue that Forward spent his personal fortune like a drunken sailor.
[17:30] #knownspace> Jim: Yes, I don't get reminders because I am no longer on the list. :-o
[17:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, that's right... funding from the Institute.
[17:30] #knownspace> dmac44: Hey, I was a drunken sailor and I represent that. :)
[17:30] #knownspace> SeanS: Jim, give me your email and i will add you to the non list notification list
[17:30] #knownspace> AlexA: Story reason is to put Bey's family in danger - not plausible if they're in stasis
[17:31] #knownspace> Jim: jimstiles26287@gmail.com
[17:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Forward's creation of neutronium was funded by Puppeteers. He had been doing research long before that. But perhaps the stasis fields were obtained with Puppeteer funds.
[17:31] #knownspace> SeanS: and on that note, anybody want me to delve into starting a mailing list?
[17:31] #knownspace> dmac44: AlexA: But they're in just as much danger. Just turn the field off/thaw them out.
[17:31] #knownspace> Hippy: You mean you don't run your life around this chat? I never forget because I schedule everything based on this
[17:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyway, we know variable swords and variable knives were somewhat commonplace. Perhaps the larger fields were too expensive for casual use.
[17:32] #knownspace> SeanS: Jim, added
[17:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: I don't agree. Bey's family is stil in danger of becoming a Kzinti meal. The Kzinti only have to shut off the stasis field.
[17:32] #knownspace> dmac44: I assume that larger fields take a lot more energy to make. Maybe some type of exponential relationship to size.
[17:32] #knownspace> AlexA: dmac44: Depends on security of the "off switch"
[17:33] #knownspace> AlexA: Though you can collapse stasis by imposing another field
[17:33] #knownspace> SeanS: So I will now send private notifications to Larry, Ed, Fred, Lensman and Jim. anybody else want to be added?
[17:33] #knownspace> Jim: Thanks Sean.
[17:33] #knownspace> dmac44: I'm old fashioned, I use a day planner.
[17:33] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[17:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Re chat notification: Anybody can set up for automatic self-notification via e-mail at www.memotome.com
[17:34] #knownspace> Lensman: That's how I always reminded myself when I was sending out the chat notice.
[17:34] #knownspace> AlexA: Most callendar apps let you set regular reminders
[17:35] #knownspace> AlexA: E.g. Outlook
[17:35] #knownspace> SeanS: I am a bit closer to the chat then most since i maintain the server. I tend to remember without help ;)
[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, the Kzinti can just wrap the passenger pods in their own larger stasis field to shut them down.
[17:36] #knownspace> Hippy: So, you all don't sit in breathless anticipation of the next chat? Do you have outside lives or something?
[17:36] #knownspace> dmac44: AlexA: I still use paper.
[17:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: "Fandom is a way of life." What outside life?
[17:36] #knownspace> dmac44: Hippy: Beer!
[17:37] #knownspace> AlexA: I often don't remember chat until it's Sunday :/
[17:37] #knownspace> Hippy: Don't mind if I do!
[17:37] #knownspace> AlexA: Should put a reminder on my iPod callendar
[17:37] #knownspace> SeanS: sipping on one now... with a fantastic beer can container that Julie got me
[17:38] #knownspace> SeanS: hugger if you will
[17:38] #knownspace> SeanS: will keep a beer cold for around 3 hours in the hot sun
[17:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Who would need a beer cold that long?
[17:38] #knownspace> SeanS: www.chillingthemost.com
[17:38] #knownspace> fredskuentz: thanks Hippy
[17:38] #knownspace> fredskuentz: (was afk)
[17:38] #knownspace> SeanS: distracted by boat engine repair
[17:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, you have many positive reviews there, Fred
[17:39] #knownspace> fredskuentz: my Spider-Man 3 DVD arrived
[17:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Even so, Sean. . .
[17:39] #knownspace> SeanS: dvd?
[17:40] #knownspace> SeanS: heh... i know.. but its a damn good hugger
[17:40] #knownspace> fredskuentz: LOL, yeah, Hippy, I have more positive reviews than Earthstorm does :D
[17:40] #knownspace> dmac44: How we've progressed today. From the energy differential of a spaceship going from 80% cee to zero in a few days to keeping a beer cold for a few hours. :)
[17:40] #knownspace> SeanS: fred, there are some that hammer it more?
[17:40] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Perfectly normal fan chat topic drift.
[17:40] #knownspace> fredskuentz: could be, I haven't looked in a long time
[17:40] #knownspace> SeanS: i can niven that
[17:40] #knownspace> AlexA: SeanS: Amy interest in my ancient ISA SCSI cards?
[17:41] #knownspace> SeanS: the perversity of the universe tends toward a maximum
[17:41] #knownspace> SeanS: sure
[17:41] #knownspace> Lensman: What we really need is a stasis cozy which automatically shuts itself off when you press your mouth to it, and reactivates when you pull it away.
[17:41] #knownspace> dmac44: lol
[17:41] #knownspace> SeanS: i have drives and cables but no cards
[17:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Good one, Lens!
[17:42] #knownspace> Lensman: "Finagle
[17:42] #knownspace> AlexA: Getting them to you may cost more than they're worth though SeanS :/
[17:42] #knownspace> SeanS: i would settle for the glass that never empties in flatlander
[17:42] #knownspace> Lensman: "Finagle's First Law", I believe.
[17:42] #knownspace> SeanS: alexa... probably... let me think on it.
[17:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Sounds like a recipe for becoming an alcoholic fast!
[17:42] #knownspace> ronn: (checks out link) Presumably the cozy keeps other canned beverages cold as well . . .
[17:42] #knownspace> AlexA: I forget where you physically are SeanS
[17:42] #knownspace> SeanS: kentucky
[17:43] #knownspace> SeanS: was dodging tornadoes yesterday
[17:43] #knownspace> AlexA: Ah - Im in UK so tricky :(
[17:43] #knownspace> Lensman: The newsie was talking about more than 100 tornado alerts in different areas all at the same time?!?!?!
[17:43] #knownspace> SeanS: i sent nick 6 cd's. he is in england and it was like 5 bucks
[17:44] #knownspace> SeanS: been several years
[17:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Apparently Thor was angry a day or two ago.
[17:44] #knownspace> Hippy: I just sent 2kgs of stuff to Florida and it was 50 bucks
[17:44] #knownspace> SeanS: thor was angry yesterday
[17:44] #knownspace> AlexA: I guess pc cards aren't heavy so post may not be too bad
[17:45] #knownspace> SeanS: 14 people dead and a couple towns destroyed
[17:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Bloody hell
[17:46] #knownspace> Hippy: We've propitiated the rain gods here and they've been hysterically grateful
[17:46] #knownspace> SeanS: my dad called and said the weather people called me out by area name. this super cell thunderstorm will hit an area called big eddy ( me) in 29 minutes
[17:46] #knownspace> NickE: yeah, but I only received a couple as I recall - post offices fault
[17:46] #knownspace> ronn: Hit a school and a prison in northern AL
[17:46] #knownspace> dmac44: SeanS: Take care.
[17:46] #knownspace> Hippy: They'd be the same place wouldn't they?
[17:46] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, nick, made it all the way to england from kentucky and your local post goofed it
[17:47] #knownspace> SeanS: dmac44 that was yesterday
[17:47] #knownspace> NickE: yep
[17:47] #knownspace> SeanS: thats when i discovered the lack of respect for british post
[17:48] #knownspace> SeanS: we had mothball sized hail but thankfully no tornado
[17:48] #knownspace> NickE: Mate sent a Steampunk rifle my son bought at Dragon Con back to teh UK for us (wouldn't fit in our luggage"!) for about $80
[17:48] #knownspace> AlexA: Royal Mail is usually pretty good in my experience
[17:48] #knownspace> Jim: Yes, I gotta go; I am not feeling well today.
[17:48] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[17:49] #knownspace> SeanS: later Jim
[17:49] #knownspace> Hippy: Sorry to hear it, Jim.
[17:49] #knownspace> AlexA: Clearly not for you though
[17:49] #knownspace> dmac44: I'm heading off too.
[17:49] #knownspace> SeanS: if I recall, it was his local office that goofed it
[17:49] #knownspace> SeanS: later dmac
[17:50] #knownspace> NickE: yep
[17:50] #knownspace> AlexA: Sounds like they were stolen :(
[17:50] #knownspace> SeanS: could very well be... i dont remember the actual content
[17:50] #knownspace> NickE: thatd be my guess - what I got had paclkage damaged
[17:51] #knownspace> AlexA: If you decide you want the cards email me alex_aplin@yahoo.com
[17:51] #knownspace> SeanS: movies... maybe... i seem to remember telling my post that it was pictures... which is what a movie or tvshow is at the basics
[17:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Re tornados: I hadn't heard about the deaths. Sorry I made a joke of it.
[17:52] #knownspace> NickE: I don't remember either! May have been ST animated possibly
[17:52] #knownspace> SeanS: added and thanks
[17:52] #knownspace> SeanS: 28 if you count Indiana... neighboring state
[17:53] #knownspace> SeanS: when Jim Cantore from the weather channel shows up down the road... it is not good
[17:53] #knownspace> AlexA: Do you have a storm shelter SeanS?
[17:54] #knownspace> SeanS: not really. my lower level is above ground but is 18 inches of poured concrete... pretty safe
[17:54] #knownspace> SeanS: or maybe it is 12 inches. never can remember... takes forever to drill through it.
[17:55] #knownspace> AlexA: Right. I'm always puzzled by folk living in trailers in tornado alley
[17:55] #knownspace> Hippy: Because it's cheap
[17:55] #knownspace> SeanS: i am in the flood plane of the Ky river so I had to do all concrete for a garage/basement level. the living floors are above
[17:56] #knownspace> Lensman: I consider myself a Kansas boy, but I've never been inside a tornado shelter. My relatives in Western Kansas didn't have them. I'm not sure I know anyone who does.
[17:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Even worse, living in trailers without properly anchored tie-downs.
[17:57] #knownspace> SeanS: there is actually one down the road that i could reach in about a 2 minute walk... guy put it in after a tornado dropped a fridge on his dad back in 1974
[17:58] #knownspace> SeanS: the storm cellar i know of
[17:58] #knownspace> SeanS: the only
[17:58] #knownspace> ronn: [Hippy] "They'd be the same place wouldn't they?"
[17:58] #knownspace> ronn: First thing I thought when I heard it on the news yesterday, too . . .
[17:58] #knownspace> ronn: [Was off in another tab looking something up, hence the delay.]
[17:59] #knownspace> Hippy: Yeah. It's fun to ridicule Alabama :)
[17:59] #knownspace> AlexA: I'm off guys
[17:59] #knownspace> Hippy: I must say, though, that I do like their accent
[17:59] #knownspace> NickE: night
[17:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Wait, I have to take that back. Grandma & Grandpa's old house, down the road, had a root cellar where grandma kept jars... home canning. I suppose that could have been used for a tornado shelter, atho with all the glass...
[17:59] #knownspace> Hippy: See you next month, AlexA
[17:59] #knownspace> AlexA: Good night
[17:59] #knownspace> SeanS: heh, alabama got so pissed off at their schools that they sued themselves over it
[18:02] #knownspace> Hippy: I think I shall adjourn, too, gentlemen
[18:03] #knownspace> SeanS: i thought you were bright eyed in the morning ;)
[18:03] #knownspace> Hippy: I am off on the Great Sponge Hunt. I washed it last night and now it has vanished
[18:03] #knownspace> SeanS: is that like a tribble hunt?
[18:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, yes, I sort of am
[18:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Actually, yes, they're about the same size
[18:03] #knownspace> SeanS: hehe
[18:04] #knownspace> Hippy: See you in April
[18:04] #knownspace> ronn: Late 60s/early70s my grandfather dug a good one into the bank across the driveway from the house*. That house was across the road from the one rebuilt on the site of the one that a tornado hit during the big outbreak in March of 1932, when the chimney fell on the bed my mother was under and broke her back, which was the start of many of the health problems she had all the rest of her life.
[18:04] #knownspace> ronn: (*That house no longer stands — stood empty too long — but the family who still live nearby still use that shelter when the weather gets bad. Dunno about the past couple of days: haven't talked to them since.)
[18:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Hopefully the sponge is less furry. If it's not... EWWW!!
[18:05] #knownspace> ronn: Sounds like the sponge in my kitchen sink . . .
[18:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, that's why I wash it
[18:05] #knownspace> Hippy: The less said about my kitchen sink, the better. I sometimes wish for a tornado when I look at it
[18:06] #knownspace> ronn: Mine looks like the tornado already occurred . . .
[18:07] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL
[18:07] #knownspace> SeanS: bar keepers friend is also your friend
[18:08] #knownspace> Hippy: He is if he knows a bar keeper
[18:08] #knownspace> SeanS: tis a cleaner
[18:08] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah. . .
[18:08] #knownspace> Lensman: I saw that as a recommened cleaner for a glass top stove, which is what we now have.
[18:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Apparently non-abrasive.
[18:08] #knownspace> SeanS: works great on ceramic stoves
[18:09] #knownspace> SeanS: i have one and used it on there earlier
[18:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Unlike Lensman. ;-)
[18:09] #knownspace> ronn: Doesn't solve the problem of things piling up when one does not feel well enough to keep up with the cleaning.
[18:09] #knownspace> SeanS: with my love of cooking that has developed in the last few years... i wish i had a gas cooktop
[18:10] #knownspace> Hippy: I can ship you mine. I never use it :)
[18:10] #knownspace> Lensman: I'd prefer gas. The electric takes longer to heat things up.
[18:10] #knownspace> SeanS: probably cheaper to buy here
[18:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Apparently these magnetic induction ones are good
[18:11] #knownspace> SeanS: news just said 19 dead in ky
[18:11] #knownspace> Hippy: Bloody hell
[18:11] #knownspace> NickE: shit
[18:11] #knownspace> SeanS: proabably just cleaning out the gene pool
[18:11] #knownspace> NickE: take care
[18:11] #knownspace> SeanS: evil shit coming my way... i will sit on the porch and drink
[18:12] #knownspace> SeanS: yesterday nick
[18:12] #knownspace> SeanS: blue sky with a bit of cloud today
[18:12] #knownspace> SeanS: snow on sunday
[18:12] #knownspace> NickE: even so
[18:12] #knownspace> SeanS: kentucky weather
[18:12] #knownspace> SeanS: if you dont like it... wait around a few hours
[18:13] #knownspace> NickE: "wacky fun"
[18:13] #knownspace> NickE: gotta head to bed
[18:13] #knownspace> SeanS: later nick
[18:14] #knownspace> NickE: later peeps
[18:14] #knownspace> Lensman: I think I shall retire also.
[18:14] #knownspace> SeanS: later David
[18:14] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Nihght, Nick
[18:14] #knownspace> Hippy: Evening, Lens
[18:16] #knownspace> Hippy: Okay, now I'm definitively heading off. I have letters to post
[18:16] #knownspace> Hippy: See you in April
[18:16] #knownspace> SeanS: later hippy... thanks
[18:16] #knownspace> Hippy: No worries, Sean
[18:16] #knownspace> Hippy: Avoid tornadoes, everyone. Make no mistake, they pack a wallop
[18:18] #knownspace> ronn: Just in from CNN Breaking News alerts:
[18:18] #knownspace> ronn: "The tornado was a part of a string of vicious storms that contributed to at least 37 deaths in Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, Alabama and Georgia. ¶ Eleven states were hit by tornadoes on Friday."
[18:18] #knownspace> SeanS: yep
[18:19] #knownspace> SeanS: i was getting mothball sized hail
[18:20] #knownspace> SeanS: whats a good picture upload site?
[18:41] #knownspace> fredskuentz: no idea
[18:41] #knownspace> fredskuentz: I need to find stuff since apple hosed all it's users and me.com is going away
[23:03] #knownspace> ronn: I'm guessing after 4+ hours without a new post, the chat is officially over for the night . . . ?
[23:44] #knownspace> fredskuentz: heh
[23:44] #knownspace> fredskuentz: little did he know
[23:44] #knownspace> fredskuentz: now, let the chat recommence!