Chat Log: June 4th, 2011

[13:00] senax has joined #knownspace
[13:58] Akiraa has joined #knownspace
[14:14] Fred has joined #knownspace
[14:42] NickE has joined #knownspace
[14:43] #knownspace> NickE: evening
[14:44] #knownspace> NickE: Sean said he'd probably be at the beach
[14:56] Hippy has joined #knownspace
[14:56] #knownspace> Hippy: Morning, everyone
[14:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Or afternoon, or Walpurgisnacht or whatever
[14:57] #knownspace> NickE: ah Hi
[14:58] #knownspace> NickE: kind of quiet
[14:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Hi, Nick. How's Merrie Olde
[14:58] #knownspace> NickE: 8pm UK time
[14:58] #knownspace> Hippy: England. . .damn, can't type
[14:59] #knownspace> NickE: Warm...for us :-)
[14:59] #knownspace> Hippy: Relatively warm here, too. A dark and quiet Sunday morn. . .
[15:00] #knownspace> NickE: I know I know, but I forget..Wayne?
[15:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Darren
[15:00] #knownspace> NickE: <sips life giving ber>
[15:00] #knownspace> NickE: oh yes, sorry
[15:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Quite alright. We only meet once a month, and there are so many names here
[15:01] #knownspace> Hippy: And no Lensman. Surprising
[15:01] #knownspace> NickE: well Sena is logged in but I know he's sipping beer down at the beach at the end of his back garden
[15:01] #knownspace> NickE: Sean even
[15:02] #knownspace> NickE: Don't always see him here
[15:02] #knownspace> Hippy: River frontage? I'm jealous
[15:02] #knownspace> NickE: Kentucky River. And he has a bloody boat. Bastard :-)
[15:03] #knownspace> Hippy: I agree!
[15:03] #knownspace> NickE: Skype chatted earlier on
[15:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Still, houses in the US are getting cheaper every day. Get your loose change together
[15:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, good ol' Skype. I wonder what Microsoft will do to it?
[15:04] #knownspace> NickE: slow it down judging by teh time it took to share a couple of pics
[15:05] dmac44 has joined #knownspace
[15:05] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi guys.
[15:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, yes. I was noticing yesterday that MSN Messenger uses as low a speed as possible for VOIP
[15:05] #knownspace> NickE: hiya
[15:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Morning, dmac
[15:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: MSN is centralized, right?
[15:06] #knownspace> Hippy: I don't know
[15:06] #knownspace> Akiraa: skype can push a lot more bits through because they don't have to use central servers
[15:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, I see what you mean
[15:07] #knownspace> Akiraa: they use skype clients as routing nodes
[15:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, XFire must do that, too. Much better VOIP quality on that
[15:07] #knownspace> Akiraa: the routable clients also do NAT traversal for the non-routing ones
[15:08] #knownspace> Hippy: NAT?
[15:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: network address translation
[15:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: it allows more than one client to use the same IP address
[15:08] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah. . .
[15:08] #knownspace> Akiraa: the disadvantage is that people behind NAT can't be accessed directly from the internet (they are non-routing)
[15:09] #knownspace> Akiraa: if you connect through a router, you're likely behind nat
[15:09] #knownspace> Akiraa: in any event, 99% of use cases don't need to be routable
[15:09] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, so something like a school setup with mltiple computers using one modem, or one IP address
[15:09] #knownspace> Akiraa: yes
[15:10] #knownspace> Fred: grts
[15:10] #knownspace> Fred: greets, even
[15:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Come to think of it, and 'grts' to you, Fred, the word 'IP' was being bandied about on This Week In Tech the other week
[15:10] #knownspace> sean: havent walked down to the beach yet
[15:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Eventually I realised they meant 'Intellectual Property'
[15:11] #knownspace> sean: was hanging with Julie until she had to wander up to the pool to pick up her son
[15:11] #knownspace> Akiraa: I wonder if IP will be regarded as one of those legal fictions of the old
[15:11] #knownspace> Fred: Yeah, houses in the US rapidly approachng 'worthless'
[15:11] #knownspace> NickE: hi Fred
[15:11] #knownspace> Hippy: Beaches, pools. . .it's 42F here
[15:11] #knownspace> sean: .weather 40601
[15:11] #knownspace> Outsider: Clear ☼, 91.4℉ (33℃), 30.10in (1016mb), Light air 3kt (↻) - KLOU 18:53Z
[15:12] #knownspace> Hippy: Ooh, yeah, I'd forgotten that handy thing
[15:12] #knownspace> Hippy: .weather YMML
[15:12] #knownspace> NickE: hi mate
[15:12] #knownspace> Outsider: Clear ☼, 6℃, 1015mb, Moderate breeze 13kt (↑) - YMML 19:00Z
[15:12] #knownspace> sean: hi Nick
[15:13] #knownspace> sean: I will take 33C over 6C all the time
[15:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Melbourne Airport is close enough
[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: on the Hobgoblin at the moment :-)
[15:13] #knownspace> Fred: Mine has dropped to 1/4 it was worth in November of 08 and is within spitting distance of what I paid for it in 1987
[15:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Especially at the pool
[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: still pleasantly warm
[15:13] #knownspace> NickE: the weather that is, not the beer :-)
[15:14] #knownspace> sean: I thought you Brits drank room temp beer.
[15:14] #knownspace> Fred: weather 40601
[15:14] #knownspace> sean: you have to put a . in front of it, Fred
[15:14] #knownspace> Fred: hmm. was something supposed to happen there?
[15:15] #knownspace> NickE: it's been in teh cupboard so is approx 15 degrees C. Perfec
[15:15] #knownspace> Fred: .weathr 40641
[15:15] #knownspace> Hippy: You two have the same postcode?
[15:15] #knownspace> Fred: grrr.
[15:15] #knownspace> Fred: .weather 85018
[15:15] #knownspace> sean: nah, I am in Kentucky, he is out west in Arizona
[15:15] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, thought I remembered aright
[15:16] #knownspace> Fred: still nothing :(
[15:16] #knownspace> sean: sometimes Outsider takes a bit of time
[15:16] #knownspace> Fred: k
[15:17] #knownspace> sean: the weather server only takes so many connections at once. Xenovalent mentioned writing a different weather routine for the bot but I dont know what he has done with it
[15:17] #knownspace> sean: .weather 85018
[15:17] #knownspace> Outsider: KeyError: 'geonames' (file "/home/logbot/phenny/modules/weather.py", line 38, in location)
[15:18] #knownspace> sean: .weather 85019
[15:18] #knownspace> Outsider: Clear ☼, 93.2℉ (34℃), 29.93in (1010mb), Gentle breeze 9kt (↑) - KPHX 18:51Z
[15:18] #knownspace> Akiraa: Ahmadinejat of Iran was saying that 'the west' was stealing Iran's rain (because of heavy cloud seeding in Europe and prevailing winds beating west-east)
[15:18] #knownspace> Fred: LOL
[15:19] #knownspace> sean: whatever, so he is blaming the west for being a desert?
[15:19] #knownspace> Akiraa: by the time the clouds reach Iran, they've been drained of water
[15:19] #knownspace> Hippy: I think the Kiwis used some similar line on us a while back
[15:19] #knownspace> sean: for Iran
[15:19] #knownspace> Fred: LOL. I don't even know where 85018 is, or if, for that matter, there *is* an 85019
[15:19] #knownspace> Akiraa: well, it's not entirely in the fictional realm
[15:19] #knownspace> sean: KPHX... looks like a tv or radio station in phoenix
[15:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Clouds without water?
[15:20] #knownspace> Akiraa: or rather, no clouds
[15:20] #knownspace> Hippy: That makes more sense
[15:20] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, they should be towing icebergs from the Antarctic, but not our bit of it
[15:21] Larry has joined #knownspace
[15:21] #knownspace> sean: Hi Larry
[15:21] #knownspace> Hippy: G'day, Larry
[15:21] #knownspace> NickE: Hi Larry
[15:22] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi Larry
[15:22] #knownspace> Akiraa: bussard ramjets, won't they clear the travelling routes of useful fuel?
[15:22] #knownspace> Fred: Hi Larry
[15:22] #knownspace> NickE: we must be bored, we're talking about the weather :-)
[15:22] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, sex is a taboo subject
[15:22] #knownspace> Fred: It is?
[15:23] #knownspace> NickE: sez who :-)
[15:23] #knownspace> Hippy: And hydrogen would flow through space, or the origin and destination points would move so the line of travel woudl move
[15:23] #knownspace> Hippy: I'm just shy is all
[15:23] #knownspace> Hippy: :)
[15:23] Lensman_Free has joined #knownspace
[15:24] #knownspace> Hippy: G'day, Lens
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Hello Niven fen!
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: Unless you had a lot of ships following the same route in multiple waves....oh wait...:-)
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Larry!
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: hi Lens
[15:24] #knownspace> Fred: There have been a bunch of mentions of Known Space on rec.arts.tv and/or rec.arts.sf.tv lately; mostly along the lines of "Niven covererd that territory years ago" :)
[15:24] #knownspace> NickE: been there, thought that :-)
[15:24] #knownspace> Fred: Speak of the Lensman!
[15:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Are we discussing Pak invasions?
[15:25] #knownspace> NickE: possibly
[15:25] #knownspace> SeanS: no true topic yet
[15:25] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, I was pondering the other day, after finishing Lucifer's Hammer, what a great mini-series it would make
[15:26] #knownspace> NickE: no argument here...depending who did it of course
[15:26] #knownspace> Fred: Yeah, except for the "the US doesn't have a space program" any more part
[15:26] #knownspace> Akiraa: NickE: could that be a plot explanation for the collapse of the city builders? their spaceship cleared the local trade routes of useful fuel and were stranded
[15:27] senax has joined #knownspace
[15:27] #knownspace> Akiraa: s/ship/ships/
[15:27] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, you woudn't set the mini-series back in the 70's. It would have no impact as a nostalgia piece
[15:27] #knownspace> Hippy: G'day, senax
[15:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Maybe a lack of NASA space program is exactly what we need. Maybe that will spur private enterprise to take up the slack, and do it much more affordably.
[15:27] #knownspace> SeanS: Unfortunately, in todays FX driven mindset, the survivor stories would most likely take a back seat to impacts and tidal waves
[15:27] #knownspace> senax: Hi
[15:27] #knownspace> NickE: well, the thing is, over the distances they covered and the frequent use of teh route, I guess fuel depletion may have become an issue
[15:28] #knownspace> SeanS: hi senax
[15:28] #knownspace> Lensman: I mean, lack of a manned space program by NASA. They are doing quite well with the unmanned probes.
[15:28] #knownspace> NickE: hi Frank
[15:28] #knownspace> Fred: I'd definitely do WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE as a period piece
[15:28] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, no, Sean. No, no, no. Modern mini-series are soapies. You want character, not FX. FX is for movies
[15:28] #knownspace> Hippy: Who has seen 'Outcasts'? For example
[15:29] #knownspace> senax: Hi everyone. Discussing a Lucifer's Hammer series?
[15:29] #knownspace> Fred: I have
[15:29] #knownspace> Akiraa: lasers going 'pew pew' and 'bzzt'
[15:29] #knownspace> Akiraa: in vacuum
[15:29] #knownspace> Fred: seen "outcasts"
[15:29] #knownspace> NickE: yeah, that could work. I think a lot of older stories would work well as period pieces
[15:29] #knownspace> Hippy: Right. So, two eps in and it's already a bloody soap opera. Thus, you could expand LH into that, too.
[15:29] #knownspace> Fred: quit outcasts after 2 eps
[15:29] #knownspace> NickE: Outcasts. Massively missed oportunity. Won't be any more
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: Yeah, it wasn't worth it
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: shame
[15:30] #knownspace> Hippy: I've just seen ep 2 of it last night. The eye candy may persuade me to stay with it
[15:30] #knownspace> SeanS: well, guess I won't be downloading it ;)
[15:30] #knownspace> NickE: theres a few good bits but it's mostly tosh
[15:31] #knownspace> NickE: I shan't be rushing out to buy teh DVDs anyway!
[15:31] #knownspace> Hippy: LH as a mini series because you need a definite end to all the cannibalism etc before it gets turned into a soap opera with dirty clothes
[15:31] #knownspace> SeanS: nick, no spoilers but just a good/bad. how was who?
[15:31] #knownspace> Lensman: I think "When Worlds Collide" could be successfully updated. Certainly the science would be better than "Armageddon" and... what was that movie? "Sunlight" ?
[15:32] #knownspace> Lensman: "Sunshine". That was a very good first 2/3 of a movie, altho it needed a few science fixes.
[15:32] #knownspace> NickE: mostly good, little dissapointed with Dr Song's identity
[15:32] #knownspace> SeanS: no spoilers damn you ;)
[15:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, I agree
[15:32] #knownspace> Hippy: On the 'no spoilers' part
[15:33] #knownspace> Fred: Hey, did anyone see the NORMANDY episode of SANCUARY? It took them 3 years, but they finally did a good episode!
[15:33] #knownspace> NickE: Well, Brian Cox was science advisor and he has said how little that means when they want to up teh action
[15:33] #knownspace> Hippy: That's just random chance, Fred
[15:33] #knownspace> Fred: lol
[15:33] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry, I read on Ed's blog that you all have turned in Fate of Worlds. Any idea on when it'll be published?
[15:33] #knownspace> Lensman: I agree LH would be better as a mini-series. Cut down to a movie it would come across as a re-hash of "Deep Impact" and similar films.
[15:33] #knownspace> NickE: They mostly paid him and took none of his advice
[15:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: any interesting sci-fi coming (or released) this year?
[15:33] #knownspace> Akiraa: movie or TV
[15:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Or 'Meteor' from 1978
[15:34] #knownspace> Fred: I think this year is mostly bad comic book stuff
[15:34] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm looking forward to /Fuzzy Nation/. Will wait for the paperback, tho.
[15:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Why do big meteor movies do so badly????
[15:34] #knownspace> NickE: GL worth a look - gotta see if any of Ganthets Tale made it in
[15:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: Wash your mouth out with soap!
[15:35] #knownspace> SeanS: Armageddon had a valid premise. Its just, rightfully, they knew an audience wants action. Not watching a weeks long transit in space to get there.
[15:35] #knownspace> NickE: (not seen GL, just wondering if worth it)
[15:35] #knownspace> Fred: but there's no reason to have the grvity backwards on the space station
[15:35] #knownspace> Hippy: What, Lens? 'Meteor'? Legendarily disadtrous!
[15:36] #knownspace> Fred: Or to let Ben Afflack live
[15:36] #knownspace> Hippy: In modern times, you might make the Russians Chinese, too
[15:36] #knownspace> SeanS: i agree fred. I meant the base premise of tackling the meteor from the inside
[15:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Agreed, nothing wrong with the basic premise of "Armageddon". It's just that they went very far out of their way to turn it into a "science made stupid" movie.
[15:36] #knownspace> NickE: point
[15:36] #knownspace> SeanS: also agreed (Afflak)
[15:36] #knownspace> Fred: and then there's alwlys "the core"
[15:36] #knownspace> NickE: oh lor
[15:37] #knownspace> Hippy: Now you're taling dirty, Fred :)
[15:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: I would be very happy to never, ever remember seeing "Meteor".
[15:37] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, Lens, I totally concur
[15:37] #knownspace> SeanS: The trust the other side during the cold war aspect was a bit interesting
[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: I love "The Core"! You just have to view it as super-science, not hard SF.
[15:38] #knownspace> SeanS: Meteor
[15:38] #knownspace> Akiraa: http://www.amazon.com/Outies-Mote-Gods-Eye-ebook/dp/B004FGMURG -- perhaps a reason to get a kindle after all
[15:38] #knownspace> Larry: Sorry. My wife summoned me.
[15:39] #knownspace> SeanS: The Core sucked. best review i can think of. ;)
[15:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Honestly, how can any red-blooded SF fan *not* love a movie that unabashedly uses "unobtainium"? That's classic!
[15:39] #knownspace> SeanS: understood, Larry
[15:39] #knownspace> SeanS: I thought that was Avatar
[15:39] #knownspace> NickE: don't get me wrong, I'll watch The Core, but mostly for the sheer car crash quality of the logic :-)
[15:39] #knownspace> Larry: It's a valid prediction. Someone will call something "unobtanium".
[15:39] #knownspace> NickE: both used Unobtanium
[15:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: the core is so terrible, I only watched half of it
[15:40] #knownspace> SeanS: I tried to block The Core out so I didnt remember
[15:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Did they call the anti-gravity mineral "unobtainium" in "Avatar"? I don't remember.
[15:40] #knownspace> Hippy: So, anyway, what about 'Sphere'?
[15:40] #knownspace> NickE: Just be a physicist wth enough clout to name a new elemnet that you've discovered. Easy
[15:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: the core is as bad as sci-fi can be, without being bad enough to be good (in a 'plan 9 from outer space'-way)
[15:41] #knownspace> Lensman: It's okay, fen. I think those who were unable to enjoy "The Core" can, I say *can*, lead useful and productive lives.
[15:41] #knownspace> Lensman: :)
[15:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: Are you a sadist? Seriously.
[15:41] #knownspace> Hippy: Ooh, Akira, yes, you have reminded me
[15:42] #knownspace> Hippy: I just relish bad crap, Lens
[15:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Now, what about a remake of 'Them'?
[15:42] #knownspace> NickE: could never make it through Sphere it was that bad
[15:42] #knownspace> Lensman: "Sphere" is one of those books where you think the movie will be better because, well, any change would be an improvement, right? But actually, not.
[15:42] #knownspace> NickE: just boring bad
[15:42] #knownspace> NickE: glad I never tried teh book
[15:42] #knownspace> Hippy: I was watching 'The Deadly Mantis' ealier this week. That is the worst 'big bug' movie ever made
[15:43] #knownspace> Fred: The director of "Sphere" needed to be hit in the face at least 5 times
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: Now aliens with exoskeltons..., how about a Draco Tavern mini series?
[15:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Er. . .hmm. . .
[15:43] #knownspace> NickE: CGI Chirps gould be doable these days
[15:43] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah
[15:44] #knownspace> Hippy: DT is a series of vignettes. How do you get a plot out of it for a mini series?
[15:44] #knownspace> senax: Now that sounds more interesting.
[15:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, with re-makes (or "re-imaginings") like "Planet of the Apes" and "The Day the Earth Stood Still", I have little hope a re-make of "Them" would be an improvement. Frankly I'd rather see a "special edition" with FX digitally replaced, and no other changes.
[15:44] #knownspace> Hippy: If 'The Outer Limits' was still on, you cuold do them there
[15:44] #knownspace> NickE: each story is self contained enough and theer are some links
[15:44] #knownspace> SeanS: I was about to type that Hippy
[15:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Right, DT isn't a mini-series, it's a series.
[15:45] #knownspace> SeanS: tho I didnt really care for how they did Inconstant Moon
[15:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, Lens, you could do 'Them' shot for shot, like that 'Psycho' remake of a few years back
[15:45] #knownspace> NickE: Yeah, would work as part of a varied series
[15:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, but Larry, what did you thnk of the 'Inconstnat Moon' episode?
[15:45] #knownspace> Fred: Plus, all the good episodes of the new OUTER LIMITS were chock full of gratuitous nudity
[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: That shot-for-shot remake of "Psycho" was possibly the most pointless movie ever made.
[15:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, Natasha Henstridge. . .
[15:46] #knownspace> Hippy: True, Lens
[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm all in favor of gratuitous nudity! ...so long as it's female nudity.
[15:46] #knownspace> Larry: I loved the "Inconstant Moon" episode. Scriptwriter kept me in the loop.
[15:47] #knownspace> Fred: is there any non pointless moviie with Anne Heechee and/or Sandra Locke?
[15:47] #knownspace> NickE: cool. I've only seen it once I think
[15:47] #knownspace> SeanS: Sandra Locke was the downside to every Eastwood movie she was in
[15:47] #knownspace> Fred: Yep
[15:47] #knownspace> Hippy: Yep
[15:48] #knownspace> NickE: Wasn't how I imagined it - but then it hardly ever is. Thought it was pretty good
[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: I thought Larry's story was better than the screenplay for "Inconstant Moon", but it wasn't bad.
[15:48] #knownspace> Hippy: NEVER cast your spouse in anything!
[15:48] #knownspace> Fred: She even ruined a Dirty Harry movie
[15:48] #knownspace> SeanS: well, live in but whatever
[15:48] #knownspace> SeanS: yep
[15:48] #knownspace> SeanS: sudden impact
[15:48] #knownspace> Fred: blarf
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: yeah
[15:49] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL! Now that's onomatopoeia!!
[15:49] #knownspace> NickE: well, it just wasn't that great
[15:49] #knownspace> Akiraa: well, there's Asimov and Card, both too prudish for my tastes
[15:49] #knownspace> Fred: I love how she sued Eastwood for ruining her career, when he was the only reason she HAD a career
[15:49] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah
[15:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Having read /Robots of Dawn/, I far prefer the "prudish" Asimov.
[15:50] #knownspace> SeanS: the only Asimov I really remember reading was Caves of Steel i think
[15:50] #knownspace> Larry: Asimov was not a prudish man. Current censorship kept his stories tame and shallow.
[15:50] #knownspace> NickE: I can believe that
[15:50] #knownspace> NickE: greta stories all teh same
[15:51] #knownspace> Akiraa: he did mention in his autobiography that he disliked gratuitous sex
[15:51] #knownspace> senax: He published whole books of dirty jokes, didn't he?
[15:51] #knownspace> Akiraa: in writing, that is
[15:51] #knownspace> Hippy: He did. 'The Sensusous Dirty Old Man'
[15:51] #knownspace> Larry: Yes re Asimov. "The Sensuous Dirty Old Man."
[15:52] #knownspace> NickE: didn't know that.
[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry has it right. If you read Asimov's commentary on /The Naked Sun/, it's quite apparent that he was restricted by censorship at the time. /Robots of Dawn/ was his "liberation" novel, exploring the overt sensuality he'd previously been denied. I guess he had to get that out of his system. /Foundation's Edge/ is my favorite. It had real emotion without having so much sex it was distracting.
[15:53] #knownspace> Lensman: ...like /Robots of Dawn/ did.
[15:54] #knownspace> Fred: Speaking of distracting sex, did anyone watch "Franklin & Bash"?
[15:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Haven't heard of that
[15:54] #knownspace> SeanS: nope
[15:55] #knownspace> Larry: no
[15:55] dmac44 has joined #knownspace
[15:55] #knownspace> Lensman: I confess I don't understand why Asimov is considered such a great writer. His stories are mostly dry and uninvolving. No humor, no action, no suspense.
[15:55] #knownspace> SeanS: wb
[15:56] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, but they're so logically worked out
[15:56] #knownspace> Lensman: OTOH I confess I do have more than a couple of dozen of his books on my shelves!
[15:56] #knownspace> Hippy: He's proof that you shouldn't apply the standards of one genre to another
[15:56] #knownspace> Fred: New show on TNT. Lawyer dramedy. Their first case was defending drivers being distracted by sexy billboards.
[15:56] #knownspace> Larry: Asomov was better than that, and his time admired puzzles. See "Earth is Room Enough": short story collection.
[15:56] #knownspace> NickE: no humour? Victory Unintentional I thought very amusing
[15:57] #knownspace> SeanS: is that the one where the one guy has memorized all the books but has no law degree?
[15:57] #knownspace> Lensman: But I can't understand the popularity of his Foundation series, and I couldn't even finish his Empire series. Read the first and gave it up.
[15:57] #knownspace> NickE: his short stories were oftn very good
[15:57] #knownspace> Fred: don't think so
[15:57] #knownspace> SeanS: maybe that is a USA show
[15:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, don't get me wrong-- Asimov can do humor very well! I love his "Thiotimoline" stories. Very funny indeed. It's just that most of his novels have no humor whatsoever.
[15:58] #knownspace> senax: I preferred Asimov's short stories to his novels, generally. More focused.
[15:58] #knownspace> Larry: Copying the fall of the Roman Empire never appealed to me, but Pournelle copies history too, early on.
[15:58] #knownspace> Lensman: That's one thing I love about Larry's early stories-- the humor is often pervasive!
[15:58] #knownspace> senax: The Gods Themselves was very goo, though.
[15:58] #knownspace> senax: good.
[15:59] #knownspace> NickE: Thio - agreed and yeah, I guess teh novels tended not to have much humour, I'll give you that
[15:59] #knownspace> Fred: F&B looks at a glance like it should be awful, but turned out to be pretty good
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Actually, the "Thiotimoline" stuff was not "stories", it was... well... fictional articles?
[15:59] #knownspace> SeanS: I will take your word for it. I just got the first 6 seasons of the soap opera House MD
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Fictional non-fiction. :)
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: something like that Lens
[16:00] #knownspace> Fred: http://s3.amazonaws.com/coolproduction/ckeditor_assets/pictures/1993/original/BTSlogansrunmodelbig.jpg?1307132354
[16:00] #knownspace> NickE: amusing if you are familiar with teh stype of accademic articles
[16:00] #knownspace> Larry: Non-fact articles.
[16:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I couldn't connect with /The Gods Themselves/. Didn't appeal to me.
[16:00] #knownspace> Fred: http://s3.amazonaws.com/coolproduction/ckeditor_assets/pictures/1979/original/BTSbttfstoltzbig.jpg
[16:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Larry, that is le mot juste
[16:02] #knownspace> NickE: I think most good stories will at least have some humourous aspects, even if very black humour in a tragic tale cos life is like that
[16:02] #knownspace> NickE: test test
[16:02] #knownspace> SeanS: just a quiet moment, Nick
[16:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Respond
[16:03] NickE has joined #knownspace
[16:03] #knownspace> SeanS: just a quiet moment, Nick
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: balls, not sure what happemed then
[16:03] Fred has joined #knownspace
[16:03] #knownspace> SeanS: NickE has quit (Remote closed the connection)
[16:03] #knownspace> SeanS: * NickE (~21295978@host-92-11-220-147.as43234.net) has joined #knownspace
[16:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Anybody else read Asimov's "Lucky Starr" juveniles? The man was entirely capable of writing action, he just chose not to.
[16:03] #knownspace> NickE: oops. Its catching!
[16:03] #knownspace> senax: Hmm...Asimov wrote four thiotimoline stories...I had only read the first and didn't know there were more.
[16:04] #knownspace> Fred: I can barely type here
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: I rather liked teh Lucky Star books
[16:04] #knownspace> Fred: comes out scrambled
[16:04] #knownspace> Hippy: I've only read three of those. Must hunt up the fourth
[16:04] #knownspace> SeanS: hmm, what client, Fred?
[16:04] #knownspace> Lensman: In the last, "Thiotimoline to the Stars", he really outdid himself! But I guess after that anything would have been an anti-climax.
[16:04] #knownspace> NickE: fun, hopelessly outdated now, but enjoyable detcetive type stories in an action setting
[16:05] #knownspace> NickE: I still have all 6 i think
[16:05] #knownspace> Hippy: I've read 'Thiotimoline to the Stars', so I must've missed one
[16:05] #knownspace> Lensman: I liked the "Lucky Starr" series, too. Rather repetitious after the first 2-3, but quite enjoyable and fast-moving.
[16:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Who here has seen 'Foyle's War'?
[16:06] #knownspace> NickE: oh yeah, there was a formula, but it was OK
[16:06] #knownspace> Larry: I love "The Dying Night" because Asimove made the same mistake I did in "The Coldest Place".
[16:06] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[16:06] #knownspace> NickE: Ah non rotation of Mercury?
[16:06] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL!
[16:06] #knownspace> Fred: sean, java in firefox
[16:06] #knownspace> Larry: We didn't know Mercury's rotation.
[16:06] #knownspace> SeanS: thats not a mistake, its science changing
[16:06] #knownspace> Fred: the first third of a sentence ilwl appearl in the midld
[16:07] #knownspace> NickE: another mistake then
[16:07] #knownspace> Fred: I'm having to type into another rogram and cuad paste
[16:07] #knownspace> NickE: something that had to have been worked out already?
[16:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Reality is at fault, though. Given the choice, I will take Niven every time
[16:07] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:07] #knownspace> SeanS: the java client off the website or the eris flash client?
[16:08] #knownspace> Fred: website
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: That's not a mistake, it's an indication Known Space is an alternate universe!
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: I had troubel getting either to run initially
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! Well said, Hippy.
[16:08] #knownspace> NickE: but second go on eris worked
[16:08] #knownspace> SeanS: fred, close that out and just type irc.larryniven.net into your browser location bar. see if that works better
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Or, rather...
[16:08] #knownspace> senax: Artificial dyslexia
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: SO SAY WE ALL!
[16:08] #knownspace> Fred: Known Space is an altrenatemul tivers
[16:09] #knownspace> NickE: all the best ones are :-)
[16:09] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm very happy with using ChatZilla to access the irc chat. Works very well, I don't have problems accessing, and almost never get randomly disconnected.
[16:10] Fred has joined #knownspace
[16:10] #knownspace> NickE: wb
[16:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Sssh, he's here
[16:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Only bad thing about ChatZilla is that the first part of the chat eventually scrolls off the page. :(
[16:10] #knownspace> SeanS: I use X-chat here
[16:10] #knownspace> NickE: eris usualy works ok for me
[16:10] #knownspace> Hippy: mIRC here
[16:10] #knownspace> Fred: it still hasn't finished loading
[16:10] #knownspace> NickE: brb
[16:10] #knownspace> Fred: but my text is appearing in order
[16:10] #knownspace> SeanS: but I am also on the same LAN as the server
[16:10] #knownspace> Fred: thanks sean
[16:11] #knownspace> SeanS: no worries
[16:11] #knownspace> senax: I prefer to use a dedicated chat client. Just because something can be done in a browser window doesn't mean it's the best way to do it.
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: I used to use mIRC. ChatZilla is much nicer.
[16:11] #knownspace> Fred: I was trying to say, Known Space is an alternate Multiverse
[16:11] #knownspace> SeanS: i agree, senax. I put the eris client up to help non techies get in
[16:11] #knownspace> Larry: I used "irc.larryniven.net" and had no problems.
[16:12] #knownspace> Fred: I think we need alternate universes for each Ringworld book don't we?
[16:12] #knownspace> Fred: (not that I don't love them all!!)
[16:12] #knownspace> SeanS: it is a very nice client, Larry. Loads straight off the server here so there is nothing to do other than key the addy and type in a screen name
[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: KS is a multiverse? Well, I suppose that's one way to resolve the discrepancies between frex, on the one hand, /Ringworld/ and /The Ringworld Engineers/, and OTOH /The Ringworld Throne/ and /Ringworld's Children/.
[16:13] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, there's a PhD for someone who can reconcile the RW books into one semaless whole
[16:14] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't think we need four universes for the Rw series. I have just two Rw timelines on my KSC site, not four.
[16:15] #knownspace> Hippy: Do they include the Fleet of Words stuff?
[16:15] #knownspace> Hippy: . . .Worlds. Fleet of Worlds
[16:15] #knownspace> Lensman: There are three "Tales of Teela Brown", but those are just different accounts told by different people.
[16:17] #knownspace> Larry: tanj! So they are. I thought to avoid that trap, that Gordie Dickson fell into.
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: Ah, now that's a good question. I was surprised when Carol Phillips asked me if I considered the OF WORLDS books canonical, back when only the first one or two were out. But now... as the series has progressed, it's become harder and harder to reconcile it with mainstream KS. The last two OF WORLDS books have me very very seriously contemplating ruling them an "alternate universe"...
[16:17] #knownspace> Lensman: ...Known Space.
[16:17] #knownspace> Larry: But I do think I'm through with the Ringworld now.
[16:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, you killed off many of the assumptions in 'Ringworld's Children'
[16:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Like puttng carnivores in hyperspace to explain the gravity well, thing. I was sad to see tha go
[16:19] #knownspace> NickE: well even if that's the case, it was a hell of a ride
[16:19] #knownspace> Hippy: But it's your universe
[16:20] #knownspace> Lensman: As an example, it's very difficult to see how to resolve the core explosion in "At the Core" with the core explosion in /Destroyer of Worlds/. The obvious solution is that there were two core explosions at different times, but the real problem is that DOW basically says the core could *not* explode as described in "At the Core".
[16:20] #knownspace> NickE: And who knows, RW has been continued twice so far as I know and of course, you always reserve the right to have a better idea :-)
[16:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Or at least, difficult for me. Perhaps Ed can do it. But he doesn't like it when I start discussing the discrepancies.
[16:21] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, you can do what is being done in many of this year's Hugo nominees. 'Ee, it were all a dream' is used a couple of times
[16:22] #knownspace> NickE: oh no, really?
[16:22] #knownspace> Hippy: Yeah
[16:22] #knownspace> NickE: I'm not up on current SF generally
[16:22] #knownspace> Hippy: I got the Hugo packet for voting purposes, went through hell converting the novels so the Kindle could read them out for me, but the short stores and novellas. . .
[16:23] #knownspace> NickE: I mean, I'll read new stuff by certain folk <ahem> but I don't often buy stuff on spec
[16:23] #knownspace> NickE: Finding time to *really* read is tough
[16:23] #knownspace> Lensman: The end of RC certainly does *read* like it's The End. Larry finally told us the story of how the Ringworld was created... which we can believe or not, but I understand it's the same story he's told to some fans. And the end of the story, moving the Ring 2000 light years away... puts it effectively out of any interaction with Known Space. Of course, there are still an infinite number of...
[16:23] #knownspace> Hippy: They start off with a good idea, realise nesar the ened that it can't be reconciled ith modern physics, chemistry, accounting or whatever and then use something like 'Well, it seemed like that, but that was because it was a virtual universe, or an AI's fantasy, or something'
[16:23] #knownspace> Lensman: ...stories waiting to be told!
[16:23] #knownspace> Larry: I gave up voting for the Hugos long ago. Old folk lose some reading speed, and it wouldn't have been fair.
[16:24] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, but the Kindle saves you from that. You can listen to it as you're hiking or whatever
[16:25] #knownspace> NickE: what it can convert to audio? didn't know that
[16:25] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, and that reminds me of a nice line from 'Footfall'. Where Nat Reynolds says that he and Wade Curtis had written two novels together and would meet in Hell, planning their escape.
[16:26] #knownspace> Larry: I haven't done it, but Kindle has an audio feature. I still gain time taking it to restaurants and the dentist.
[16:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Nearly fell off my treadmill
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: I read far less than I used to. I've gotten to the point that I'm simply not interested in finishing a mediocre novel. So it has to be something recommended as special before I'll even pick it up, unless it's an author I already love.
[16:26] #knownspace> dmac44: Yes, but the Outsiders are all through the galaxy. There may be an Outsider ship near the new position of the Ringworld ......
[16:26] #knownspace> Hippy: The text to speech is good, though it stumbles in 'Lord of the Rings' a bit
[16:26] #knownspace> Hippy: And of course you can put audiobooks on it
[16:26] #knownspace> NickE: figures
[16:27] #knownspace> Hippy: I bought it for the plane trip back from Florida. Saved me from a very boring half-day
[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: Sure, if you assume Siggy's assumptions at the end of /Jugglers of Worlds/ were wrong, which I indeed do.
[16:27] #knownspace> Hippy: But there should be more Niven for it, damnit!!
[16:27] #knownspace> Fred: If I get enough alone time I could read my Kindle I usually fall asleep
[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: 'Cuz they are flatly contradicted by the end of /A Gift from Earth/.
[16:28] #knownspace> NickE: I still kind of like dead tree books tho - and lack of certain authors would put me off for now
[16:28] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, Nick, and if you're not in the US they are now not letting you buy some KIndle product. Grr!!
[16:29] #knownspace> Akiraa: that's why VPN were invented
[16:29] #knownspace> Akiraa: or do they need a US credit card specifically?
[16:29] #knownspace> Lensman: It would be very nice if Larry's agent could get all his older stuff into electronic format. I'd happily pay for more copies!
[16:29] #knownspace> NickE: but if it can read to you... oh that sucks. Its £111 quid over here for teh basic model. Still not that cheap
[16:29] #knownspace> Larry: Back in 3 minutes.
[16:30] #knownspace> Akiraa: what do you think of the new computer sci-fi, cyber punk?
[16:30] #knownspace> Hippy: No, no. Amazon gets your 'region' fromyour mailing address and then says you're not allowed to have a book because the publishers don't want you to
[16:30] #knownspace> NickE: I mean chep for the tech, but not cheap enough that im ready to get one
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: feckin hate regionalisation in media
[16:31] #knownspace> Hippy: Me, too. The Antipodes suck :)
[16:31] #knownspace> NickE: not that much of an issue - multiregion DVD players are easy to get here, but teh whole idea is dumb
[16:31] #knownspace> Fred: how does amazon get your region from your mailing address?
[16:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Cyberpunk is the natural evolution of dystopian SF into a more modern mold. You can think of Wells' /The Time Machine/ as proto-cyberpunk.
[16:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, if your mailing address says 'Australia' it knows that your regionis Australia
[16:32] #knownspace> Fred: yeah, but that's pretty rare
[16:32] #knownspace> Akiraa: multiregioning is just another reason for piracy, I'd have thought media companies would know at least that
[16:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Lens: WTF??
[16:32] #knownspace> NickE: Transmetropolitan by Warren Ellis is arguably cyber punkl
[16:33] #knownspace> NickE: awesomely good comic series
[16:33] #knownspace> Hippy: This is the carving up of SF. 'Forever Amber' is Restorationpunk
[16:34] SolBelter has joined #knownspace
[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: What I hate about regionalization is that the companies have gotten governments to give their marketing scheme the force of law! Heck, if they release something in Australia first, then I should be able to buy a DVD from that region and play it without any import barrier nonsense. And vice versa for Aussies wanting USian discs.
[16:34] #knownspace> NickE: hi
[16:34] #knownspace> Hippy: G'day, SolBelter
[16:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, here region protection is illegal
[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: You need to be more specific in asking WTF?
[16:34] #knownspace> Hippy: That is, you can't sell a player with region protection on it
[16:35] #knownspace> NickE: it's just stupid in teh age of teh net and globalisation to introduce artifical marketing restraints
[16:35] #knownspace> Hippy: WTF about 'Time Machine' being cyberpunk
[16:35] #knownspace> NickE: steampunks suerly :-)
[16:35] #knownspace> Hippy: I would think so :)
[16:35] #knownspace> Fred: In challenging Lensman, "WTF" is verbose. You merely scream and you leap.c
[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanks Fred! :)
[16:36] #knownspace> Fred: :)
[16:36] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL
[16:36] #knownspace> Hippy: Well done, Fred!!
[16:36] #knownspace> NickE: I think most players in teh UK are region free these days, but cheap ones and built in to TV ones arent
[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: But Wells predates the labels "Steampunk" and "Cyberpunk". "Steampunk" is retro, and when Wells wrote, he wasn't writing retro.
[16:36] #knownspace> Fred: yes, I'm currently reading RINGWORLD again
[16:37] #knownspace> Fred: they're just getting briefed by Charon
[16:37] #knownspace> NickE: well of course, but the style is what steampunk sometimes tries to do
[16:37] #knownspace> Fred: Niven may well be the king of re-readability
[16:37] #knownspace> NickE: In many cases definitely
[16:37] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, I think you're right, Fred
[16:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyway, the question was what do we think about the Cyberpunk genre? I was pointing out that it didn't suddenly appear as a separate genre, that it grew out of older SF.
[16:38] #knownspace> NickE: many fav "comfort" re reads are Larry's
[16:38] #knownspace> Lensman: ...er, it didn't appear as a separate *sub*-genre.
[16:38] #knownspace> Akiraa: any chance of a ringworld sequel?
[16:38] #knownspace> Hippy: What? There are three!
[16:39] #knownspace> Akiraa: just like a druggie wants another dose :)
[16:39] #knownspace> Lensman: The Ringworld explorers are briefed by a *projection* of Charon, not a Puppeteer in the flesh.
[16:39] #knownspace> NickE: Larry said he was done,but thats happened before :-)
[16:39] #knownspace> Hippy: It did, Lens. Cyberpunk is a bit of navel-gazing at the genre, then morphed or evolved into a genere of its own. Now there are subgenres of it. Subspecies of it, you could say
[16:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: or more in the life of Louis Wu
[16:40] #knownspace> Lensman: The implications of a projection controlled by the Gw'oth still being part of the Concordance two centuries later... are interesting indeed! One would have thought the Concordance would have rid itself of Gw'oth control by then.
[16:40] #knownspace> NickE: What I've read of cyberpunk, I've often liked
[16:40] #knownspace> NickE: but it's still a variety of SF, so what's not to like?
[16:40] #knownspace> Akiraa: NickE: have you read Accelerando?
[16:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry *always* says he's done with the Ringworld! Every single time.
[16:40] #knownspace> dmac44: Yeah, but Larry generally needs a reason to write another sequel. Can we give him One? What needs to be said that hasn't?
[16:40] #knownspace> Hippy: It alll reminds me of 'Doctor Who' but I can't define why
[16:40] #knownspace> NickE: Yes
[16:41] #knownspace> NickE: I need to read some moer Stross I think
[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Oops... I think I just gave a spoiler. Sorry!
[16:41] #knownspace> Akiraa: dmac44: I feel like Louis has not been explored enough
[16:41] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, Stross is a dab hand
[16:41] #knownspace> NickE: it was kind of odd and I'm not entireky sure about it, but it was a good read
[16:42] #knownspace> SolBelter: steampunk is so *viewable* model guns, customes, jewelry [geartooth earrings, etc]
[16:42] #knownspace> Lensman: I have pretty much not read any cyberpunk novels. Never read Gibson. It's on my "someday..." list.
[16:42] #knownspace> NickE: been getting into teh Culture novels of Iain M Banks
[16:42] #knownspace> dmac44: From Ed's blog: "Larry and I have turned in the manuscript for Fate of Worlds -- the conclusion of both the Fleet of Worlds series and the Ringworld series."
[16:42] #knownspace> NickE: mostly enjoyable and interesting - grand scale stuff
[16:43] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't at all see it as a separate genre. Definitely a sub-genre of SF, in my book.
[16:43] #knownspace> SolBelter: what's the current pub date for 'Fate'?
[16:43] #knownspace> Akiraa: dmac44, very nice
[16:43] #knownspace> NickE: my kids are into Steampunk, costumes mostly
[16:44] #knownspace> dmac44: Again, from Ed's blog: estimate is the summer of 2012.
[16:44] #knownspace> Akiraa: my scifi brain finds it hard to accept the overt 'alternate physics' of steampunk
[16:45] #knownspace> SolBelter: thx dmac!
[16:45] #knownspace> Lensman: All four OF WORLDS books came out in Sep-Nov, about a year apart.
[16:45] #knownspace> dmac44: So, the good news is that it'll come out before the Mayan calendar runs out.
[16:45] #knownspace> Fred: there's a verne steampunk museum that has a really weird definition
[16:46] #knownspace> Fred: they say it's all contemporary, and assumed man invented steam and rivets instead of transistors
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: I like steampunk. I love the Victorian age, and /The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen/ is my favorite graphic novel!
[16:46] #knownspace> SolBelter: So, any word on the net series, 'Convoy of Solar Stems'?
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: I should say, I like steampunk *very* much!
[16:46] #knownspace> SolBelter: next KS^
[16:46] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'Convoy of Solar Stems'
[16:46] #knownspace> Lensman: In fact, I pretty much like any form of Retro SF.
[16:46] #knownspace> NickE: League is great
[16:46] #knownspace> Fred: LXG is probably in my top 10
[16:47] #knownspace> SolBelter: systems^, grrr
[16:47] #knownspace> NickE: ned to get more of it
[16:47] #knownspace> Fred: LXG2 is a crime against humanity though, and that colors it
[16:47] #knownspace> Hippy: I thought 'Flotilla of Planets' was coming soon
[16:48] #knownspace> Fred: I'd certainly put "Dark Knight" and "World's Finest" above it. And "The Rocketeer"
[16:48] #knownspace> Hippy: And of course, 'Barrator of Worlds' which is about a string of lawsuits over defamation and derivative work
[16:48] #knownspace> SolBelter: and the Niven estate will someday sell rights for 'Gaggle of Galaxies' as Protectors try to avoid Andromeda
[16:48] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, you can vote on graphic novels in this year's Hugos. Although I shall abstain
[16:48] #knownspace> Fred: current or classic?
[16:48] #knownspace> Lensman: I like the "Space: 1889" take on Steam era SF. The aether is real. Edison invented an aether propellor, which propels spaceships to Mars, Venus and elsewhere in the Solar System. A natural antigravity wood grows on Mars, so they have something sorta like Burroughs' airships there.
[16:49] #knownspace> Fred: yes
[16:49] #knownspace> Hippy: Okay, I liked 'Space: 1889', too
[16:49] #knownspace> Fred: hey, did you see Pixar dropped the word 'Mars" from the John Carter movie!?!?!!?
[16:49] #knownspace> Akiraa: Ringworld's Grandchildren?
[16:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Great writing on the source book for "Space: 1889". Too bad the published scenarios are sucky.
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: Ringworld's Nephews?
[16:50] #knownspace> SolBelter: Yay - i loved Howard Chaykin's Cody Starbuck and his antigrav wood starship Limerick Rake
[16:50] #knownspace> dmac44: lol, a lot of little ringletts?
[16:50] #knownspace> Akiraa: or a cross-series involving both Ringworld and Halo
[16:50] #knownspace> Hippy: And whatever it would be in the original Klingon
[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: -/You cannot appreciate Niven until you've read it in the original Klingon?/ ...nah, doesn't work ;)
[16:51] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Tureen of Heaven'. It's a lot bigger. . .
[16:52] #knownspace> Akiraa: "You cannot appreciate Niven until you've read it in the original Pak language. Larry was a genetically engineered human, sent back in time."
[16:52] #knownspace> Larry: Exposed!
[16:53] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[16:53] #knownspace> dmac44: Now, if there was a ringworld around every star in the milky way, they could cause their suns to emit thrust in a common direction, pulling the black hole at the center of the galaxy with it and out of the way of Andromeda.
[16:53] #knownspace> Fred: sent back in time, or forward?
[16:53] #knownspace> Fred: And, may I be the one to coin his new name
[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: "Cor"
[16:53] #knownspace> Fred: wait for it
[16:53] #knownspace> Fred: "Larry Seven"
[16:53] #knownspace> NickE: <groan>
[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Akiraa: LOL! Yeah, that's it.
[16:54] #knownspace> Akiraa: Tolkien invented his own language to fit into his epics
[16:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Fred, that was. . .it's too ealy in the morning for that
[16:54] #knownspace> Lensman: "Sideways in time".
[16:54] #knownspace> Hippy: So Larry did inventy the stapler and the butrane lighter? I always suspected
[16:55] #knownspace> SolBelter: that took me a minute...Gary Seven from the pilot ep insenrted into Star Trek - brilliant, Fred
[16:55] #knownspace> Lensman: I thought it was the paper clip.
[16:55] #knownspace> Hippy: Nope. 'For A Foggy Night'
[16:56] #knownspace> Lensman: "All the Myriad Ways".
[16:56] #knownspace> Hippy: Both, if I recall correctly
[16:57] #knownspace> SolBelter: dont u mean 'All the Foggy Nights' and 'For a Myriad Ways'?
[16:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Guess I'm wrong... search for "paper clip" in ATMW fails.
[16:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, all comvinations are equally real
[16:57] #knownspace> NickE: Steampunk: http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=1962741670053&set=o.198967863462576&type=1&theater
[16:57] #knownspace> SolBelter: i walked thru a fog last night...
[16:58] #knownspace> NickE: LArry's idea obviously now
[16:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, welcome to our world, SolB
[16:58] #knownspace> Lensman: There are very, very few horror stories that really scare me. "For a Foggy Night" is one, because I honestly have wondered if something like that happened to me. A subtle change, not a radical one.
[16:58] #knownspace> SolBelter: thx Hippy, and how is Emperor Kennedy 8's health, now?
[16:59] #knownspace> Hippy: She's fine
[16:59] #knownspace> Hippy: No, wait
[16:59] #knownspace> dmac44: I've always liked the fog ....
[17:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, this is the thng I thnk when I get a wrong answer in a trivia contest. I could've sowrn it was Poughkeepsie, but no, it's Albany
[17:00] #knownspace> Hippy: See, I move from universe to universe every day. The fog doesn't enter inot it
[17:00] #knownspace> Fred: thanks solb :)
[17:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Too dark to see if there's any fog at all
[17:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Stapler appears in "All the Myriad Ways". Doesn't appear to be in "For a Foggy Night", sorry.
[17:02] #knownspace> Hippy: It does in my universe. Oh, no. . .
[17:03] #knownspace> Hippy: What about butane lighter?
[17:03] #knownspace> SolBelter: the auto-oragamic paper-holder, u mean?
[17:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: Yes, exactly. When I've been /absolutely certain/ of something, and it turns out to be wrong, then I wonder... did I slip into an alternate universe? Doesn't happen so much anymore, or rather I'm less paranoid than I used to be. But when I was young... yeah, sometimes I really did wonder.
[17:04] #knownspace> Fred: Okay, here's a totally true story. My recently discovered cousin, who I suspect of being shy a chromosome or two, just called
[17:04] #knownspace> Fred: on my cell phone
[17:04] #knownspace> Fred: to ask for
[17:04] #knownspace> Fred: wait for it
[17:04] #knownspace> Fred: I swear
[17:04] #knownspace> Fred: my phone number
[17:04] #knownspace> dmac44: lol
[17:04] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL!! Oh my God, that is brilliant!!
[17:04] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'i s[o]lip[p]ed into a solipsist universe...
[17:04] #knownspace> Lensman: "For a Foggy Night" has the butane lighter, and the zipper is mentioned in passing.
[17:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Much obliged, Lens
[17:05] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL! That's like the joke about the blonde asking "What's the number for 911?"
[17:06] #knownspace> Lensman: I need to re-read "For a Foggy Night" also.
[17:06] #knownspace> SolBelter: Fred, does he go to google to look up google url, as some do?
[17:06] #knownspace> Fred: lol
[17:06] #knownspace> SolBelter: seriously
[17:06] #knownspace> Fred: c
[17:07] #knownspace> Hippy: My parents cannot be taught. They tupe URL's into Google and wonder why they can't find websites
[17:07] #knownspace> Fred: He called and I said I couldn't talk, so he facebooked me and said he called to get my phone number
[17:07] #knownspace> Lensman: But actually I can sympathize. I just broke down and got a cell phone last week. Couldn't figure out how to take the number from someone calling me and put it into my call list. Wound up copying it down on paper... and making an error!
[17:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: My parent, too.
[17:08] #knownspace> Hippy: I must say I can't fathom out half the features on mine, either
[17:08] #knownspace> SolBelter: hippy - yes! common practice, apparently
[17:08] #knownspace> Fred: My Mom doesn't remember what a cell phone is any more :(
[17:08] #knownspace> Hippy: Sorry to hear that, Fred
[17:09] #knownspace> Lensman: The "manual" mine came with is a joke. I hafta go online and find the real one.
[17:09] #knownspace> SolBelter: sympathy, Fred
[17:09] #knownspace> SolBelter: hippy - i meant re parents/urls
[17:10] #knownspace> Fred: she wears it on a chain around her neck, and every so often says "this is a phone? I can call you on this??"
[17:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Yep, SB, and yet I can't use half my parents' features, either
[17:10] #knownspace> Hippy: My mother's GPS is hopeless, for a start
[17:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Sorry to hear that, Fred. And not looking forward to probably having the same problem with my mom.
[17:11] #knownspace> Larry: I use my phone as a phone.
[17:11] #knownspace> Fred: she had another stroke a month ago, immediately prior to my telling sheen what he was and could do with it, and lost the cell phone synapse somehow
[17:11] #knownspace> Fred: yesterday she told time though
[17:11] #knownspace> SolBelter: half of us by age 85 - my mother did, my father coesnt have it
[17:11] #knownspace> Fred: thought that was gone forever
[17:12] #knownspace> Lensman: I should get my mom a Jitterbug. It's made to mimic a real phone, has limited features. She wouldn't use those other features anyway.
[17:12] #knownspace> Fred: that's what mom has
[17:12] #knownspace> Fred: it's great
[17:12] #knownspace> Fred: and cheap
[17:12] #knownspace> Fred: but when she ceases to understand the entire concept ...
[17:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, well a phone can't fix Alzheimers or the result of strokes.
[17:13] #knownspace> Fred: the only big problem with the jitterbug is that the battery needs to be charged about every 2.5 days, just from being on in standby mode.
[17:13] #knownspace> Fred: And you don't want to take it away from them overnight
[17:13] #knownspace> SolBelter: Larry, i still quote 'he must have been in the shower - he came to the door wearing nothing but his phone' to people as a piece of future-look
[17:13] #knownspace> Fred: and you need a phone to charge it
[17:14] #knownspace> Fred: luckily I have a spare :)
[17:14] #knownspace> Hippy: SB, where's that from?
[17:14] #knownspace> SolBelter: prob a Gil the Arm
[17:15] #knownspace> SolBelter: he's interrigating suspects to murder
[17:16] #knownspace> Hippy: Damn this wandering bladder!
[17:16] #knownspace> SolBelter: that character had a gender secret, i think, and asked the detective not to tell his partner
[17:17] #knownspace> SolBelter: story was written in early 70s i think
[17:18] #knownspace> Larry: I'd forgotten the line. Thanks.
[17:19] #knownspace> SolBelter: thanks for writing it! :)
[17:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Now, Gil the ARM would make a good series
[17:20] #knownspace> Hippy: Sunrise in two minutes. Gee, that mojon's bright. . .
[17:21] #knownspace> SolBelter: 1859 AD solar flare
[17:21] #knownspace> SolBelter: caused auroras so bright miners got up to eat breakfast
[17:21] #knownspace> SolBelter: in rocky mts
[17:22] #knownspace> SolBelter: Hippy - i first read inconstant in a british import pb - at night - full moon
[17:23] #knownspace> SolBelter: geeee, did it seem brighter after that
[17:23] #knownspace> SolBelter: than i reread it twice
[17:23] #knownspace> Hippy: It's well worth it
[17:23] #knownspace> Hippy: My first Niven was 'Get A Horse'
[17:24] #knownspace> SolBelter: variation of placebo effect - 'moonbright effecft'
[17:24] #knownspace> Larry: "Inconstant Moon" scared my mother. The full moon always looks too bright after reading it.
[17:24] #knownspace> SolBelter: it sure did!
[17:25] #knownspace> Hippy: "The full moon alwasys looks brighter." Gerrold: "Does it? Why?" LN: I don't kow. It just always does."
[17:25] #knownspace> Hippy: From that recorded interview in 1979
[17:25] #knownspace> SolBelter: ...and the men of Apollo 19 trying trying to find shade behind melting bulders...
[17:28] #knownspace> NickE: reading it does tend to colour how carefully you look at the moon thereafter
[17:28] #knownspace> SolBelter: and then checking Jupiter hours later ...
[17:28] #knownspace> NickE: heh
[17:28] #knownspace> SolBelter: [to Nick]
[17:29] #knownspace> SolBelter: then she says 'damn'....
[17:29] #knownspace> Hippy: But it could happen! That's the creepy part
[17:29] #knownspace> NickE: exactly
[17:30] #knownspace> SolBelter: a neat buy-in to Inconstant, was thast Jupiter brightness bit, at lightspped
[17:30] #knownspace> Hippy: It could have happened! Nine minutes ago. . .
[17:32] #knownspace> SolBelter: i'm thinking of 'On Rotating Cylinders' as the man bursts into flame on the emporer's holoset halfway around the world
[17:32] #knownspace> Hippy: I think my entire week will now be taken up re-reading
[17:32] #knownspace> SolBelter: lol
[17:33] #knownspace> Hippy: And, think of how lucky the tnuctip were not speaking English. Spell it backwards
[17:34] #knownspace> Hippy: Poul Anderson's observation. I can't believe I never noticed it before
[17:34] #knownspace> SolBelter: i've oft wondered about that
[17:34] #knownspace> Hippy: It's such a brilliant insult, too
[17:34] #knownspace> SolBelter: but from a author who refers to ol' "Pisspot"...
[17:34] #knownspace> Hippy: About the worsr thing you could call someone
[17:35] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, Anderson you mean. Hadn't heard that one
[17:35] #knownspace> Hippy: I was about to say 'you mean Phssthpok'
[17:36] #knownspace> SolBelter: i meant Larry's name for Protector Psshtpok
[17:36] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh! Well, yes, I suppose. . .
[17:37] #knownspace> SolBelter: [our two non-connected heads look at each other] as Hippy and I grin
[17:37] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course, in real life we know that's because of Pak mouth strtucture
[17:37] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, they do
[17:38] #knownspace> SolBelter: first time i heard Larry say that at an sf xon, i was nonplussed
[17:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Everyone else has been stunned or taasped into immobility
[17:38] #knownspace> SolBelter: apparently...
[17:39] #knownspace> SolBelter: or so in awe of our wit - why is everyone now laughing?
[17:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes. Bow before us, puny mortals!
[17:40] #knownspace> Hippy: As we humourously explore the worlds, and words, of Larry Niven
[17:40] #knownspace> SolBelter: ah, there's a name....
[17:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Sorry, was AFK.
[17:41] #knownspace> SolBelter: u reminded me of Harpillilar
[17:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Not sure I understand. Are you saying Larry pronounces "Phssthpok" as "Pisspot" ?
[17:41] #knownspace> SolBelter: whose last name was Hotrufan
[17:41] #knownspace> Hippy: There's a Lisa Tuttle review of Larry's work whch says that inventing words is his strong suit, but I can't remember the source
[17:41] #knownspace> SolBelter: yes Lens
[17:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, I parsed "trufan" out of "Hotrufan" but someone else pointed out the "ho" fits, too. Dunno if that was intentional or not.
[17:42] Jim has joined #knownspace
[17:42] #knownspace> Hippy: It could be misheard as that, anyway, Lens
[17:42] #knownspace> Hippy: Jim!
[17:42] #knownspace> Jim: hello
[17:42] #knownspace> Hippy: How's West Virginia on this fine. .. evening
[17:42] #knownspace> SolBelter: i pronounce it as hot-tru-fan
[17:42] #knownspace> Jim: mild and humid
[17:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Which of course she would be
[17:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, "hot trufan" is the polite way to parse it! And perhaps what Larry intended. I see Larry is still here... care to comment on that Larry?
[17:43] #knownspace> Jim: Did you talk about Avatar or the Core?
[17:43] #knownspace> NickE: a bit
[17:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Both, as it happens
[17:43] #knownspace> Jim: Or did you talk about the "mockbusters"?
[17:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes we did, Jim.
[17:43] #knownspace> SolBelter: Lens, Larry uses both the 'real' name or pisspot when being flippant about him, or saving his glottis
[17:45] #knownspace> Jim: Have you seen Ed?
[17:45] #knownspace> Hippy: I suppose 'Halrloprillalar Hot Roofin'' might work
[17:45] #knownspace> Hippy: Not today, Jim
[17:45] #knownspace> Lensman: The word "trufan" is fanspeak.
[17:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah. . .should've taken that Monk's pill. . .
[17:46] #knownspace> Jim: What does "trufan" translate to in mundane?
[17:46] #knownspace> Jim: Is translation possible?
[17:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, things like that can be found at the Known Space Concordance...
[17:47] #knownspace> SolBelter: 'a dedicated fan'
[17:48] #knownspace> SolBelter: of whatever fandom, book, sportsteam, etc
[17:48] #knownspace> SolBelter: otaki, fanatic
[17:49] #knownspace> Larry: Ho tru fan.
[17:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Hotrufan, Halrloprillalar: Fandom— In fanspeak, the jargon of literary science fiction fandom, the word "trufan" means "the compleat fan, the one hundred and one percenter who enthusiastically embraced every aspect of SF and fandom, overlooking nothing" (The Neo-Fan's Guilde to Science Fiction Fandom, ed. by Bob Tucker).
[17:49] #knownspace> SolBelter: as pronouncing, or meaning, Larry?
[17:50] #knownspace> Hippy: So, the 'ho' could be seen as referring to her profesion??
[17:50] #knownspace> Larry: "ho" is a greeting. (You don't have to use stand up comics to teach you modern English.)
[17:50] #knownspace> SolBelter: neat point, Hippy
[17:50] #knownspace> Lensman: May I quote you on that, Larry?
[17:51] #knownspace> Larry: quote: sure.
[17:51] #knownspace> Hippy: So, does 'Halrloprillalar' have a meaning? Assuming the 'lalar' refers to her place of origin or family, a la 'Fortaralisplyar'
[17:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanks. I need to update my "Hotrufan, Halrloprillalar" entry!
[17:52] #knownspace> Larry: I invented Halrloprillalar because it's alien and pretty. No other meaning.
[17:52] #knownspace> Jim: In Known Space, do NASCAR fans use stepping disc technology to allow them to continually drink beer while watching a race without having to leave their seat to go to the bathroom?
[17:53] #knownspace> Larry: That beer mug bends credibility. I'd leave it out, writing today.
[17:53] #knownspace> Hippy: How. . .American of them :)
[17:53] #knownspace> Jim: I know, NASCAR is no longer a professional enterprise in Known Space by the time of Beowulf Shaffer or Louis Wu.
[17:54] #knownspace> SolBelter: ....except for a few crazed Jokers on crumbling highways...
[17:54] #knownspace> Larry: remember from "Flatlander", the car race was on the San Diego freeway.
[17:55] #knownspace> Lensman: It's interesting that Elephant's drinking glasses were the only documented use of miniature transfer booth motors. There are thousands of potential applications! But probably you'd have to be as rich as Elephant to afford them.
[17:55] #knownspace> Jim: Larry, which Interstate is that?
[17:55] #knownspace> SolBelter: exactly, Lensman re uses
[17:55] #knownspace> Lensman: There were two maintained freeways. As I recall, one on the East Coast and one on the West of North America.
[17:56] #knownspace> Larry: yes, too many uses I didn't want to cover.
[17:56] #knownspace> Larry: 405, I think.
[17:56] #knownspace> Jim: Other technology could be used to assist the rabid beer drinking NASCAR fan.
[17:57] #knownspace> Lensman: The Pennsylvania Turnpike was the other.
[17:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Like the stasis field. Too tanj useful if you really think about it.
[17:58] #knownspace> Hippy: Meanwhile, by Beowulf Shaeffer's time the 2104 America's Cup race is entering it's 300th year in court. . .
[17:58] #knownspace> Jim: PA turnpike is not really a high speed highway; I would have saved a newer freeway with a faster design speed; neither here nor there.
[17:59] #knownspace> Lensman: "Turnpike" merely means they're charging a toll. It has nothing to do with whether it's a limited-access superhighway or not. The Kansas Turnpike is part of Interstate 70.
[18:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Hey gang, I need some help parsing this:
[18:02] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't even know if Pelton's still involved. The UN has probes in the system. Meanwhile the current plan calls for a base on the planet."
[18:02] #knownspace> Lensman: I laughed. "Oh, sure!"
[18:02] #knownspace> Lensman: He grinned at me. "Set on a metal dish in stasis, inside a roller sphere also in stasis. It is antimatter, after all."
[18:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Seems alright to me
[18:03] #knownspace> Lensman: If the roller sphere is in stasis, then shouldn't everything inside be frozen in stasis too? If there is a hole in it and only the surface of the roller sphere is in stasis, then how does it protect what's inside? For that matter, what's the point of having a base inside a stasis field? You can't take measurements or see out of it.
[18:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, yes, I see what you mean now
[18:04] #knownspace> Jim: Yes, but the PA turnpike was built to older 1940's highway standards. I would refer to the I- #, but there are multiple I- numbers.
[18:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Surely it would've altered a bit by Shaeffer's time?
[18:05] #knownspace> Larry: I'm dropping out. Fare you well.
[18:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, nobody said the crazy groundcar enthusiasts insisted on driving on a superhighway...
[18:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye Larry!
[18:05] #knownspace> Jim: Bye Larry, thanks.
[18:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Built to more modern standards, turned into an anarchy park, then maintained for racing later on
[18:06] #knownspace> Jim: Hippy, that makes sense. It was probably reconstructed during Elephant's grandmother's adulthood.
[18:07] #knownspace> Jim: According to Wikipedia, the first section of the PA turnpike was constructed in 1940, which was five years before the US Army had first-hand experience with Hitler's Autobahn.
[18:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Well okay, actually it doesn't say the base is inside a stasis field. The base is on a metal dish, and presumably only the dish is in stasis. I still have a problem with the roller sphere thing. A roller cylinder with the axis open would make more sense, then you wouldn't have to worry about where the hole rolls around to.
[18:09] #knownspace> Lensman: If it was a cylinder, the hole would never contact the ground, which should make the setup safer.
[18:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, anything inside the sphere would be in stasis. That's what World of Ptavvs implies anyway
[18:10] #knownspace> Lensman: You still have the problem of being inside a cylinder completely utterly opaque to all radiation, so you can't take any measurements except looking out the holes.
[18:10] #knownspace> Hippy: And one stasis field can't exist inside another one, or Kzanol wouldn't've come alive in the first place
[18:11] #knownspace> Hippy: What about a sphere with lots of little holes in it?
[18:11] #knownspace> Hippy: Like a plate in a round colander?
[18:12] #knownspace> Hippy: If a hole touches the surface, does anything go boom?
[18:12] #knownspace> Jim: I need to see a picture to understand what is happening.
[18:13] #knownspace> SolBelter: same here
[18:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Think topology. I propose that the cylinder is hollow, and that the stasis field is carried on the surface... inside and out. The "inside" of the stasis field is only the thickness of the cylinder wall. So in that configuration, there can be another object-- a plate-- also in stasis inside the cylindrical stasis field. The two fields might have to be kept apart with small rollers or wheels,...
[18:13] #knownspace> Lensman: ...though.
[18:14] #knownspace> Hippy: I think one stasis field can touch another one
[18:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Of course, that begs the question that if the wheels can survive, why does the plate need to be wrapped in stasis? Maybe the wheels get replaced often.
[18:14] #knownspace> Lensman: If two stasis fields touch, won't they merge together?
[18:15] #knownspace> Hippy: Given good engineering, stasis fields would be frictionless, so the plate could sit directly on the inside walls of the cylinder. Of course, how the cylinder is moved around. . .
[18:15] senax has joined #knownspace
[18:15] #knownspace> Hippy: I don't know about merging fields, Lens
[18:15] #knownspace> Lensman: You can use thrusters to move it.
[18:15] #knownspace> Hippy: Ah, I see. They're inside the cylinder, too
[18:16] #knownspace> Hippy: So, if two stasis fields can touch, you need only two hemispheres. . .no, how would you join them together? Hmmm
[18:16] #knownspace> Jim: What happended to senax?
[18:16] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't think we have an example from canon of two separate stasis fields being brought into contact. Maybe they'll merge, maybe not. I tend to think they will, because they are *fields* being carried by a conductive surface. But I could be wrong.
[18:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, thrusters are in the base, inside the cylinder but not in stasis.
[18:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, seanax isn't here now.
[18:17] #knownspace> Hippy: But if nothing can penetrate a stasis field, then surely another one can't either
[18:18] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman, do you mean reactionless thrusters?
[18:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, reactionless thrusters.
[18:18] #knownspace> Jim: OK
[18:18] #knownspace> Lensman: The word "thruster" is very nearly always used in the KS stories to mean reactionless thrusters.
[18:19] #knownspace> Lensman: How do you join them? A flange on the rim, and the flange has bolt holes in it. Them. Bolt them together. There will be a leakage of some radiation thru the joint.
[18:20] #knownspace> Hippy: What happesn when the bolt hits the surface?
[18:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Other ways of joining are possible, but all have the problem of leakage.
[18:20] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm... good point Hippy.
[18:20] #knownspace> Hippy: I suppose you could enclose the bolts in their own stasis field
[18:20] #knownspace> SolBelter: :)
[18:20] #knownspace> Hippy: fields
[18:21] #knownspace> dmac44: I'm heading out, see you guys later. Fred, I hope your Mom improves.
[18:21] #knownspace> SolBelter: take care, gentlebeings
[18:21] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Bye, dmac
[18:21] #knownspace> SolBelter: bye all
[18:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Now it's more complex, but still possible. The bolt and the nut must be separately enclosed in their own individual stasis fields. It's straining my credulity to think you can tighten a nut on a bolt and not have the fields merge.
[18:21] #knownspace> Jim: Bye dmac44, SolBelter
[18:22] #knownspace> Hippy: Sol's gone,t oo
[18:22] #knownspace> Hippy: I can't think of anything that suggests they would merge, though
[18:22] #knownspace> Jim: Fred, has your Mom's situation changed?
[18:23] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Impenetrable' to me suggests that merging is out of the question
[18:23] #knownspace> Lensman: They are fields carried by a conductor. If two conductors touch, why wouldn't the fields merge into one?
[18:23] #knownspace> Lensman: They are not being penetrated, they are merging.
[18:23] #knownspace> Hippy: Hmm. Okay, point taken, Lens
[18:24] #knownspace> Lensman: But okay, here's how you do it:
[18:24] #knownspace> Jim: Would reactionless thrusters require a pre-Einsteinian view of the geometry of space.
[18:24] #knownspace> Jim: ?
[18:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Take your two hemispheres, wrap them in stasis fields, and *then* cover them with non-conductive plastic or rubber or whatever. And *then* bring them together and bolt them together.
[18:25] #knownspace> Hippy: So long as the rims overlap to prevent contact with the surface, you're home and hosed
[18:25] #knownspace> Hippy: Of course, then you're blocking all radiaiton so you can't observe anything
[18:26] #knownspace> Hippy: But as a tax haven it would be cool
[18:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Hypothesis: Thrusters work on a quantum effect. In fact, someone published a paper just a year or two ago theorizing pretty much that exact thing.
[18:26] #knownspace> NickE: i'm blanking so time fr bed
[18:26] #knownspace> NickE: night all
[18:26] #knownspace> Hippy: Nighty-night, Nick
[18:27] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL Tax haven. But you don't need that fancy setup just for that. Just put yourself in the field and turn it on! No IRS collections for as long as the field operates.
[18:28] #knownspace> Hippy: 'Avoiding Egregious Taxation By Avoiding Local Passage of Time'
[18:28] #knownspace> Hippy: There's an MBA in that
[18:29] #knownspace> Jim: When the Stasis Field was turned on, would you not have to pay taxes for the period spent without local time progressing?
[18:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Only if you take all your worldly possessions into stasis with you. Otherwise the IRS can seize them on the basis you're an absentee owner.
[18:30] #knownspace> Jim: Unless, the IRS had a tax on the possession of property, which it does not, thankfully, have now.
[18:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, so it's the county and property tax. Same difference, just another agency.
[18:31] #knownspace> Jim: I suspect that the UN in KS has a different view of taxation than the IRS of today.
[18:31] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, a stasis field doesn't really help out there
[18:32] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, the taxation of today would leave Louis Wu a complete destiture. Two hundred yeras of taxation? Struth. . .
[18:32] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm trying to imagine a judge buying the argument that you don't have to pay annual taxes because you're inside a stasis field. Sometimes courts don't follow common sense, but I'd bet the judge wouldn't buy it.
[18:33] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, there's an Asimov story where going into a time loop does save the hero
[18:33] #knownspace> Jim: The courts obey common sense, when common sense requires the payment of taxes to the government.
[18:34] #knownspace> Hippy: But in real life passage of time is determined by the date, regardless of where you've been
[18:34] #knownspace> Jim: There were several TOS/TNG episodes that involved a time loop of some sort.
[18:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Louis is rich enough to afford an estate on Earth. Presuming he has money in long-term investments, he should come out richer than he went in. Barring a stock market crash, of course... and two stock market crashes are mentioned in KS stories. One left Rich Mann a pauper.
[18:35] #knownspace> Hippy: The other madd Louise Wu rich
[18:35] #knownspace> Lensman: But if he invested in, say, UN bonds, then he should be fine.
[18:35] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, there was some changes in the market that made him rich
[18:35] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman, would a Flatlander who was a pauper be in better shape than Rich Mann was?
[18:36] #knownspace> Hippy: Milton Friedman pointed out some years ago that Treasury bills don't even keep up with inflation, so some bonds are not a good investment
[18:36] #knownspace> Jim: Uncle Milty
[18:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: Depends on what the "social safety net" was on Earth vs. Wunderland. I'd guess "Yes".
[18:37] #knownspace> Hippy: And WeMadeIt has debtor's prisons. Interesting the way finances work
[18:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Wunderlanders have a strong opposition to central authority, so I'd guess their gov't is more libertarian than the UN.
[18:37] #knownspace> Jim: Rich Mann was SOL.
[18:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, the debtor's prison is rather startling.
[18:38] #knownspace> Hippy: Plus, Beowulf Shaeffers finances are so private he can 'seem' to be rich to keep his creditors from checking him. Wish we had that :)
[18:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: True, bonds may not be a good place to have most of your money.
[18:39] #knownspace> Hippy: Also, the ability to make money is a survival instinct, thus you can buy your birthrights. But if you merely inherit your million stars to buy them, how does that prove you cna make money?
[18:40] #knownspace> Hippy: For Louis Wu it was definitely a stock marktt fluctuation that made a baronial English family broke
[18:40] #knownspace> Jim: Inheriting a million stars implies that your ancestors had the appropriate genes.
[18:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Instant data transfer does not exist in Known Space. See Bey's use of a Dictaphone in "Neutron Star" and "At the Core". The virtual messaging system in "Fly-By-Night" does not belong in Known Space.
[18:41] #knownspace> Hippy: It implies that at least one did, but how far back?
[18:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Depends on whether or not you consider /Betrayer of Worlds/ canonical.
[18:42] #knownspace> Hippy: So, it might take a bit of time to transfer data by hyperwave, but local agencies could maintain credit checks from planet to planet.
[18:42] #knownspace> Hippy: I mean, on each planet
[18:42] #knownspace> Lensman: If BOW is canonical, then Louis is only very recently rich. Rw seems to imply Louis inherited his wealth.
[18:43] #knownspace> Hippy: RW says he is only recently rich.
[18:43] #knownspace> Hippy: He made his money in his own lifetime
[18:43] #knownspace> Hippy: Search for baronail in RW. The quote is there
[18:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, thanks Hippy.
[18:44] #knownspace> Hippy: However, we do know that Elroy Truesdale inherited his wealth, as did Elephant
[18:45] #knownspace> Hippy: No worries. I love hammering my points home :)
[18:45] #knownspace> Jim: Hippy, how are the eyes?
[18:46] #knownspace> Lensman: <quote>The lawn was one of those tended according to the ancient British formula: seed and roll for five hundred years. Five hundred years had ended in a stock market crash, after which Louis Wu had had money and a certain venerable baronial family had not. </quote>
[18:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Thanks for asking, Jim. They're doing very well!
[18:46] #knownspace> Hippy: I can read a book!!
[18:46] #knownspace> Hippy: And thus have been since March
[18:46] #knownspace> Jim: Fantastic
[18:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes it is!!
[18:47] #knownspace> Lensman: If Louis got his money in that crash, then it must have been several decades before Rw, because Louis had established a habit of taking a sabbatical in his singleship every 40 years. I presume only the rich are able to afford their own private starship.
[18:47] #knownspace> Hippy: And so far the cornea shows no signs of rjeection, so I should be right for another year at least
[18:47] #knownspace> Hippy: That makes sense, Lens
[18:48] #knownspace> Lensman: The Louis Wu in BOW is a very different person.
[18:48] #knownspace> Hippy: I really should read those. I've been putting it off for too long
[18:49] #knownspace> Lensman: The Louis Wu of Rw also has eyes with no trace of epicanthic (sp?) fold, also unlike the Loius of BOW.
[18:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Altho I suppose one could reconcile the two by assuming Louis lost his fortune shortly before BOW, and had cosmetic surgery to remove the "slanted" eyes.
[18:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Problem is, BOW seems to imply that Louis had *never* been wealthy.
[18:52] #knownspace> Jim: RW does not say when Louis Wu earned his wealth.
[18:53] #knownspace> Lensman: In general, BOW treats Louis like a young man, inexperienced and never having had his heart broken before. Rw treats him like someone who's seen it all. As I said, two very different people, and frankly I'm not sure if I *want* to try to reconcile them. They really don't seem to be the same person.
[18:53] #knownspace> Jim: Some wealth was generated by the sale of the ship that Nessus gave to Louis Wu at the end of BOW.
[18:53] #knownspace> Hippy: In an earlier chat here, you pointed out that Louis Wu changes his face in 'Ringworld Engineers', so that explained the epicanthic folds mentioned in 'Ringworld's Children'
[18:54] #knownspace> Hippy: Ir's these changes that are probably what's putting me off reading the EML collaborations
[18:54] #knownspace> Fred: Luewu's eyes are a problem
[18:55] #knownspace> Fred: In RW he has a slant as part of his Fu Manchu get up, but none when he removes it
[18:55] #knownspace> Fred: In RWE he has a new face, but everybody recognizes him
[18:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Rw says Louis was born a Flatlander, and did not see stars until he was in his twenties. It says he has spent enough time on each Human colony to be considered a native. BOW says Louis didn't get around to visiting Earth until he was about 130, and had never been rich. The Louis of Rw was rich enough to own or lease his own starship every 40 years. I can't reconcile the two.
[18:55] #knownspace> Fred: In a later RW book he has slanted eyes
[18:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, that's a continuity error that cropped up in a later Rw book, Fred.
[18:56] #knownspace> Hippy: See? Why would I bother reading books that so abuse the canon?
[18:57] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't know how to explain it other than to say Louis had cosmetic surgery. Whether his natural state is "round eyes" or "slant eyes", we can't say.
[18:57] #knownspace> Fred: There's no way to say 'he has slanted eyes after this point and not before' - they have to come and go a couple times
[18:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Hippy: So you can complain about them, of course. :)
[18:57] #knownspace> Fred: hence my conclusion that each RW book belongs in it's own adjacent parallel dimension
[18:57] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, okay, if it's for complaining :)
[18:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Maybe slanted eyes are changed as casually as skin dye jobs.
[18:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Or Teela putting in colored contacts to make her irises silver.
[18:58] #knownspace> Hippy: But the eyes are neatly covered by the 'new face' explanation from RE. Lens showeed me the error of my ways on that score
[18:59] #knownspace> Fred: But if he has a new face
[18:59] #knownspace> Fred: How does Chmee recognize him?
[18:59] #knownspace> Fred: much less Teela?
[18:59] #knownspace> Jim: smell
[18:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Smell, for Louis.
[18:59] #knownspace> Hippy: What would a human face look like to a kzin?
[18:59] #knownspace> Fred: lol
[18:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Chmeee didn't recognize Teela; Louis did.
[19:00] #knownspace> Fred: no no no
[19:00] #knownspace> Hippy: I mean, can we tell kzinti apart by their faces?
[19:00] #knownspace> Fred: I meant Teela recognizes him
[19:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Rw establishes that Speaker can recognize the scent of individual humans.
[19:00] #knownspace> Jim: I doubt it.
[19:00] #knownspace> Fred: and not by smell, she recognizes him on TV
[19:00] #knownspace> Hippy: Teela would infer Louis logically. After all, if Chmee is there and a puppeteer is tyhere, the human must be Louis
[19:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Kzinti have different black markings on their face and hands.
[19:00] #knownspace> Fred: and yellow
[19:01] #knownspace> Hippy: Hmm. Okay, point taken
[19:01] #knownspace> Fred: Hippy, I think you should avoid OF WORLDS
[19:01] #knownspace> Lensman: If Teela sees a Kzin with Louis, and they are comfortable in each others' presence, it's not a long leap of logic.
[19:01] #knownspace> Fred: they do more than 'abuse the canon'
[19:01] #knownspace> Hippy: I'm beginning to think so, too, Fred
[19:02] #knownspace> Fred: they say 'everything said in the RW books was a lie'
[19:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, no
[19:02] #knownspace> Fred: I enjoy them on their own, but not for what they do to the RW saga
[19:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Right, well, that's sold me on not bothering
[19:03] #knownspace> Fred: They are to Known Space what ENTERPRISE was to STAR TREK
[19:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm, I had forgotten Louis had altered his appearance by the time of RE. So Teela had to infer it was him. But then, she does explain her train of logic for luring Louis to her location.
[19:03] #knownspace> Hippy: Lucky you're not Ed's agent, Fred
[19:04] #knownspace> Fred: You'll note I only say this when Ed and Larry aren't around :)
[19:04] #knownspace> Hippy: Yeah, well, let's hope they don't read the site
[19:04] #knownspace> Hippy: If these chats are ever put up there! What's happening there, Sean?
[19:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, what Fred says is my main problem with BOW. If we believe that, we have to believe everything Rw said about Louis was a lie. I'm not willing to do that. Rw is the far superior work, I'm not willing to give preference to a far inferior work.
[19:05] #knownspace> Fred: yes
[19:05] #knownspace> Fred: same notation for RWC
[19:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Well no, not "Enterprise" bad. And I like RWC a lot.
[19:05] #knownspace> Fred: I don't :(
[19:05] #knownspace> Fred: I like the cover though
[19:06] #knownspace> Hippy: I objected to it changing so much of accepted KS background
[19:06] #knownspace> Fred: I came *this* close to buying the print of that
[19:06] #knownspace> Hippy: I only wish Enterprise had kept to explaining the pre-Kirk universe. Ah, well
[19:07] #knownspace> Fred: as long as you accept ENTERPRISE as TNG era holonovel, it's okay
[19:07] #knownspace> Lensman: I have that for my 'puter's wallpaper. It's a stunning painting!
[19:07] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL, Fred
[19:08] #knownspace> Jim: TOS and TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT are two different universes
[19:08] #knownspace> Fred: otherwise you have to accept that Starfleet met every damn alien that Kirk and Picard met for the first time, and lost the post it notes about all of them
[19:08] #knownspace> Lensman: The various Trek series have shown us a lot of different timelines. "Enterprise" follows one of 'em. Obviously not the Classic Trek timeline.
[19:08] #knownspace> Hippy: Yes, reconciling them would be very difficult
[19:09] #knownspace> Fred: they really should have had Archer's crimes against the universe result in the Mirror Mirror reality
[19:10] #knownspace> Hippy: LOL
[19:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred, do you really think you can reconcile TNG and ENT? I haven't studied them in detail, but frankly I'd be surprised if they could.
[19:11] #knownspace> Hippy: It's apity that Berman's ego was such that he didn't want to make the Roddenberry universe at all
[19:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Other than RWC saying "Oh yah, you *can* fly in hyperspace close to a star", I'm not sure what you mean about it changing "so much of accepted KS background".
[19:12] #knownspace> Fred: No, TNG ceases to work at the end of season one, The Neutral Zone, when Data gives the wrong Earth year
[19:12] #knownspace> Fred: and they started retconning TOS to match
[19:13] #knownspace> Fred: Lensman, isn't the entire timeline for Teela in RWC wrong?
[19:14] #knownspace> Lensman: That's not question which can be answered with a simple yes-or-no, Fred.
[19:14] #knownspace> Fred: IIRC it can't be reconciled with RWE
[19:15] #knownspace> Fred: and doesn't RWE have a different shadow square system than RW?
[19:15] #knownspace> Fred: So that's 3 realities
[19:15] #knownspace> Fred: You might be able to make RWT match either RWE or RWC
[19:15] #knownspace> Lensman: The break comes between RE and RT. The timeline given at the beginning of RT does not match the dates in RE, by... as I recall, by about 8 years. The timeline of RWC pretty much matches RT. Now, there is some retconning of Teela's timeline to shoehorn Wembleth (sp?) into it, and some speculation by Louis, but really we are NOT required to believe Louis' speculation are we? I think not.
[19:15] #knownspace> Fred: I really don't care what happens to RWT :)
[19:16] #knownspace> Hippy: I love RWT
[19:17] #knownspace> Fred: Remember Larry was talking about a 'directors' cut' of RWT?
[19:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, if you're going to say one simple error-- like Nessus saying there are 30 shadow squares-- indicate a different timeline, then you will IMHO be multiplying entities beyond necessity.
[19:17] #knownspace> Fred: Put Louis in the action instead of making it a TV show our heroes were watching?
[19:18] #knownspace> Fred: Lensman, IIRC it's a different number of squares at a different orbital distance as well
[19:18] #knownspace> Lensman: There are other explanations: Nessus was in a contrary mood and wanted to see if the idiot human would swallow an obvious lie; the editor or copy-editor changed the text as a practical joke.
[19:18] #knownspace> Fred: It's not a slip of the tongue; it's a different system
[19:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Keep in mind the stories that Larry publishes are *translations* from the original. The characters are *not* speaking colloquial late-20th-century or early-21st-century English! These are translations. Some errors are unavoidable.
[19:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Hello, that sounds interesting
[19:20] #knownspace> Fred: I also want to know just when in RW Teela got her birth control crystal removed ...
[19:21] #knownspace> Fred: and presumably got Louis' changed as well
[19:21] #knownspace> Lensman: I remember some discussion of a "director's cut" of RWT. I don't recall Larry ever saying he seriously considered that. Note I'm not saying he didn't... I'm saying I'm not aware that he did.
[19:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Or if Teela was 20 or 30 in Rw!
[19:21] #knownspace> Fred: yeah
[19:21] #knownspace> Fred: 20
[19:21] #knownspace> Fred: that really annoyed me
[19:22] #knownspace> Fred: her being 10% of Louis age is mentioned too often to ignore
[19:22] #knownspace> Fred: a 30 year old is too old to be of the lottery generation
[19:23] #knownspace> Fred: and she had a pretty boring sex life for an uber hot lucky 30 year old
[19:23] #knownspace> Jim: Someone should make an annonated version of RW that discusses all of the retcons and mistakes.
[19:23] #knownspace> Fred: "that way lies madness"
[19:23] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, you're the one for that, Lens
[19:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Here's my take on it: If you read real-world accounts of historical events, they have these sorts of inconsistencies in them. Different people remember things differently, sometimes they get their facts wrong. I don't think it's fair to hold Larry to a higher standard than real world textbooks. And no rational person would suggest that just because different histories report some things...
[19:24] #knownspace> Lensman: ...differently, that they are reporting alternate realities! History isn't what really happened, it's what was *reported* as having happened.
[19:25] #knownspace> Lensman: She was 20. No way was she 30. She was too young, too inexperienced, too naive for 30. Luck gene notwithstanding.
[19:25] #knownspace> Hippy: And, of course, you may need to change your stories to say what you want to say
[19:26] #knownspace> Hippy: As to the birth control not working, lucky for Wembleth that it failed
[19:27] #knownspace> Jim: Maybe Teela is a Bene Gesserit who can force men to breed with them, regardless of any birth control device the man is using.
[19:27] #knownspace> Hippy: Now, since the hominids evolve to fit various niches, what do the 'tiger' hominids look like? How do they behave?
[19:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Anyway, I've written my analysis/opinion of "The Three Tales of Teela Brown". You can read it at the Known Space Concordance, if you like. No point in repeating what I've said in a truncated version.
[19:28] #knownspace> Jim: Hippy, homo sapiens venator.
[19:29] #knownspace> Lensman: I think hominid --> tiger would be too radical a mutation. The more specialized an animal is, the harder it is for evolution to make a radical change.
[19:29] #knownspace> Hippy: Egad, Jim.
[19:30] #knownspace> Hippy: Nonetheless, Lens, Larry mentions that tyhe Pak didn't bring mosquitoes (vampirtes) tigers etc, so tigers should bve somewhere. Something would evolve to prey on grass giants, I would think
[19:30] #knownspace> Jim: Hippy, some confused mixture of "Man vs. Wild" and "Man vs. Food"?
[19:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Reminds me of the "pet conversions" sketch in Monty Python's Flying Circus. A dog doesn't make a good fish, and a plains ape doesn't make a good tiger.
[19:31] #knownspace> Hippy: Doesn't make a good beaver, either, but try telling that to Tupuggop
[19:32] #knownspace> Fred: Larry doesn't say the pack didn't bring Mosquitoes
[19:32] #knownspace> Fred: Louis guesses it
[19:32] #knownspace> Hippy: He sasys it on the 'An Hour With Larry Niven' tape
[19:32] #knownspace> Fred: The difference between what the author says and a character says
[19:32] #knownspace> Fred: ah
[19:33] #knownspace> Lensman: By the same argument, Jim, you could argue that there should be the equivalent of a bat. Sorry, but no. Humanoids are just too big and heavy to fly by flapping wings. And a plains ape's legs cannot change so radically as to be a swift runner with powerful teeth and claws, in only 1 million years of evolution.
[19:33] #knownspace> Fred: maybe he was quoting Louis :)
[19:33] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman, venator means hunter, not tiger
[19:34] #knownspace> Lensman: I think we can say the Engineers did not bring mosquitoes or tigers. Sure Louis says it the first time, but that seems to be borne out in later books.
[19:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Red Runners are hunters. They're just not big enough to prey on Grass Giants. They are not tigers, either. Not by a long shot.
[19:35] #knownspace> Jim: The picture behind "homo sapiens venator" was a modern human specifically adapted to hunt mastadons and mammoth-like creatures in groups normally or occasionally alone.
[19:36] #knownspace> Hippy: And a hominid tiger mignn't tackle a gras giant, just as a tiger won't tackle an elephant, but one could tackle a Red herder, vampire, City Builder, Macine Person etc
[19:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Homo sapiens hunted mastadon and mammoth just fine. No evolutionary adaptation needed.
[19:37] #knownspace> Fred: Over 4000 sccience books, free, pdf
[19:37] #knownspace> Fred: www.nap.edu
[19:37] #knownspace> Jim: Africans, experienced with hunting wild elephants, say that wild elephants need to be hunted as one would hunt an enemy, not a human.
[19:38] #knownspace> Jim: Homo sapiens hunted mastadons in groups, never alone.
[19:38] #knownspace> Lensman: We're given numerous examples of carnivorous Rw hominids. Gouls and Red Runners are two examples. Not sure if vampires technically qualify as "carnivorous" or not-- arguably, they are parasites-- but they certainly are not herbivorous!
[19:40] #knownspace> Jim: Ghouls need for a newly dead creature to "ripen" or "cure" so that they may eat it. True carnivores prefer raw, fresh meat.
[19:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Sure, elephants are very dangerous to hunt without an elephant gun. But our ancestors gained experience in doing just that. As has been pointed out by anthropologists, the usual fictional scenario where a hunter gets injured or killed hunting a mastadon could not have happened. If one hunter gets crippled or killed per hunt, your clan will quickly die off.
[19:43] #knownspace> Jim: Homo sapiens venator could have the ability to eat raw meat without the usual consequences.
[19:43] #knownspace> Lensman: The usual scenario was probably hunting at night, using fire and torches to drive the mastadons into an arroyo where they were trapped, then hurtling large rocks down from above. Not charging in with a spear to get trampled.
[19:45] #knownspace> Lensman: One of the changes between ape and human was that our jaw muscles became much weaker. It's been argued that we *needed* fire to cook our food, to make it easier to chew and digest. That is, it's been argued that fire is part of human evolution, not something invented after we became human.
[19:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Dunno if that's true, but it's an interesting theory.
[19:46] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman, that scenario was proposed after looking at the techniques of 19th century native North Americans. We cannot vouch for their use by earlier sub-species of HS.
[19:46] #knownspace> Hippy: Sorry, still listening, but occupied elsewhere
[19:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Which scenario? Hunting mastadons?
[19:47] #knownspace> Lensman: mastodons?
[19:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, the older suggestion was driving them off a cliff, but this does not seem to be borne out in the fossil record.
[19:48] #knownspace> Jim: Maybe something like Homo Venator, which would be a new branch from Homo habilis?
[19:49] #knownspace> Hippy: Possibly Homo Venditor? Constantly selling things
[19:51] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm more or less with Larry on the whole "Once you start dominating your environment, you stop evolving" thing. That's an oversimplification, perhaps, but if an animal evolves to be an efficient and successful hunter, then it does not *need* intelligence, and probably won't develop intelligence any further. Our ancestors developed intelligence because they *had* too. The weakened jaw muscles...
[19:51] #knownspace> Lensman: ...was possibly or probably an important part of that.
[19:52] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, cerrainly all the hominids we see are social and have some control of their environment, so probably would stop evolving
[19:52] #knownspace> Jim: Pak Breeder == Homo habilis, therefore weakened jaw muscles took place in Homo line after Pak visit of Earth.
[19:55] #knownspace> Jim: It is close to 2000 hours here on the East Coast, so I will call it a month. I will see you all in July. Bye.
[20:00] #knownspace> Lensman: "Social" and "dominate the environment" are two different things. Meerkats are social but are not apex predators. Tigers are apex predators but aren't social. Lions are social to a limited extent, and pretty much dominate their environment, altho elephants and jackals challenge them.
[20:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye, Jim.
[20:02] #knownspace> Hippy: There's a lot of food for thought here, Lens
[20:02] #knownspace> Lensman: It's a complex subject, Hippy, and as you can tell it's one which I find greatly interesting!
[20:02] #knownspace> Hippy: Just hearing about a Harry Potter analysis that makes comments on the canon
[20:03] #knownspace> Lensman: ?
[20:03] #knownspace> Hippy: One moment whilst I find the Amazon reference
[20:03] #knownspace> Lensman: You mean the Harry Potter canon, not KS?
[20:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm... error... re lions, it' hyena packs that challenge them, not jackals.
[20:05] #knownspace> Hippy: http://www.amazon.com/Mapping-World-Potter-Mercedes-Lackey/dp/1932100598/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1307232270&sr=8-1-spell
[20:05] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, yes. I think the Pak leant towards being pack animals
[20:06] #knownspace> Hippy: But I thnk of a tiger hominid being able to hunt a Gleaner hominid
[20:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Pls refresh my memory on Gleaners.
[20:07] #knownspace> Lensman: =Red Runners?
[20:07] #knownspace> Hippy: Appear in RWT. Two makes and a female, the Queen, who dress with feathers
[20:08] #knownspace> Hippy: They are at the conference organised by Valavirgillin
[20:08] #knownspace> Hippy: Half a metre high, I think
[20:09] #knownspace> Lensman: BRB
[20:10] #knownspace> Hippy: Righto
[20:15] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, I have been summoned to play 'Lord of the Rings Online' (wish there was a Ringworld MMORPG) so I shall bid you all a fond farewell and see you in July
[20:15] #knownspace> Hippy: Fred: stand by for email
[20:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, we know from both /Protector/ and /Destroyer of Worlds/ that Pak breeders are as social as H. sap. is. I presume that like us, they are most comfortable in small groups. And that they naturally form clans or villages of up to about 30 individuals, and above this smaller groups tend to split off.
[20:16] #knownspace> Hippy: Sounds right for Red Herders
[20:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye Hippy! Nice chatting with you. I take it that the eye problem is no longer a barrier to chat. That's good!
[20:16] #knownspace> Hippy: To be picked up next month, Lens :)
[20:17] #knownspace> Hippy: No, though this is a big font I"m typing in :)
[20:17] #knownspace> Hippy: But I can read books now!!
[20:17] #knownspace> Hippy: So some Nivne is on today's menu
[20:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Great!
[20:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Anyway, Middle Earth awaits
[20:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye, again.
[20:18] #knownspace> Hippy: See you in July :)
[20:18] #knownspace> Hippy: And at Worldcon for whomever is going
[20:18] #knownspace> Hippy: Oh, hell, I'll just be AFK
[20:19] #knownspace> Hippy: That way I don't miss anything. . .
[20:19] #knownspace> Lensman: "Red Herders" not "Red Runners". My bad.
[20:19] #knownspace> Hippy: Well, we understood
[21:06] #knownspace> The_Lurking_Eye: Okay. Ill bid you all a proper adieu and see you in July