2014-01-04 09:47:46 : <sean> heh
2014-01-04 09:55:08 : "sean" left the channel.
2014-01-04 10:12:45 : "sean" joined the channel.
2014-01-04 13:11:38 : <sean> hmm, guess some jerk on a golf cart drove over the cables to the uplink truck at the vanderbilt game.
2014-01-04 13:11:59 : <sean> just guessing of course
2014-01-04 14:07:01 : <sean> .weather klou
2014-01-04 14:07:02 : <Outsider> Clear â˜¼, 41.0â„‰ (5â„ƒ), 30.11in (1016mb), Gentle breeze 8kt (â†‘) - KLOU 18:53Z
2014-01-04 14:23:35 : <fredskue_> Today's chat seems strangely quiescent
2014-01-04 14:39:52 : <sean> back from beer run
2014-01-04 14:50:15 : "Jim" joined the channel.
2014-01-04 14:50:23 : <Jim> hi
2014-01-04 14:51:02 : <sean> hey jim
2014-01-04 14:55:24 : <sean> hippy has appeared online
2014-01-04 14:56:54 : "Hippy" joined the channel.
2014-01-04 14:57:12 : <Hippy> Good afternoon from the Antipodes
2014-01-04 14:57:39 : "dmac44" joined the channel.
2014-01-04 14:57:50 : <Hippy> Hi dmac
2014-01-04 14:57:58 : <dmac44> Hi guys. Happy New Year!
2014-01-04 14:58:11 : <Hippy> Oh, yes. Happy New Year to you
2014-01-04 14:58:23 : <sean> I see the internet gods have smiled at Hippy this month.
2014-01-04 14:59:08 : <Hippy> They are posigtively smirking. I'm on a stable wifi at the moment, courtesy of my mate Ian. No stupid mobile broadband connections
2014-01-04 14:59:17 : <dmac44> Hippy, did you sacrifice a chicken or something? :)
2014-01-04 14:59:24 : <sean> heh
2014-01-04 14:59:31 : <Hippy> Yes, that's what I was doing officer
2014-01-04 14:59:47 : <dmac44> lol
2014-01-04 14:59:53 : <Hippy> Now...does anyone here play 'Diplomacy'?
2014-01-04 15:00:05 : <dmac44> No, what is it?
2014-01-04 15:00:40 : <sean> nope
2014-01-04 15:01:15 : <Hippy> It's a board game where you use your armies and navies to take over pre WW1 Europe. There ar variants set in Middle Earth, too, but I've never found the rules for that one. You can get it on computer, too, but the AI is terrible and the networking is worse.
2014-01-04 15:01:36 : <sean> so a Risk type game
2014-01-04 15:01:39 : <Hippy> I need some interpretation of the rules or Italy is doomed...
2014-01-04 15:01:50 : <dmac44> Isn't it anyway?
2014-01-04 15:01:55 : <Hippy> Yes, but I think it predates Risk
2014-01-04 15:02:19 : <Hippy> Yes, but not due to occupation by the lousy French.
2014-01-04 15:02:49 : <sean> isnt that against the rules of the universe?
2014-01-04 15:02:59 : <Jim> I have played Diplomacy once before. It takes a VERY long time to play.
2014-01-04 15:03:03 : <Hippy> One of the good things about the game is that it is a good model for why certain military decisions were made in Europe. Why Napoleon attacked Spain and Portugal for example
2014-01-04 15:03:16 : <Hippy> It sure does, Jim.
2014-01-04 15:04:12 : <Hippy> Still, compared to 'Car Wars' it's quick
2014-01-04 15:04:38 : <Hippy> And it was the desire to find a longer game than Diplomacy that got me into Dungeons & Dragons
2014-01-04 15:04:47 : <sean> never played car wars
2014-01-04 15:05:09 : <Hippy> It's slightly more fun than cataloguing navel lint
2014-01-04 15:05:45 : <Hippy> Three hours at it one night and we simulated 38 seconds of combat. 'Decline and Fall of the Third Reich' took six hours just to set up!
2014-01-04 15:06:39 : <dmac44> Faster than the rreal thing.
2014-01-04 15:07:38 : <Hippy> Well, you're right about that
2014-01-04 15:08:03 : <Hippy> Ringworld 'Diplomacy'. 18 000 000 separate Europes to worry about
pictures a somewhat full weekend
2014-01-04 15:10:47 : <sean> this is historically the slowest chat of the year.
2014-01-04 15:11:01 : <Hippy> LOL
2014-01-04 15:11:19 : "Larry" joined the channel.
2014-01-04 15:11:26 : <sean> Hi Larry
2014-01-04 15:11:27 : <Hippy> And it seems I have monopolised the conversation by beng loud and shouting the bar
2014-01-04 15:11:45 : <Hippy> Hi, Larry! Happy New Year!
2014-01-04 15:11:45 : <Larry> Happy New Year!
2014-01-04 15:12:02 : <sean> And to you!
2014-01-04 15:12:24 : <Larry> were you the only one here? That's a monopoly, all right.
2014-01-04 15:12:44 : <Hippy> Well, an oligarchy
2014-01-04 15:13:09 : <Larry> what's new?
2014-01-04 15:13:31 : <Hippy> Oh, and may I say 'Thank You' for 'Goliath Stone' which has more references in it, Larry, than I can get
2014-01-04 15:13:47 : <sean> hmm, nasty snowy and bitterly cold weather due in here tomorrow.
2014-01-04 15:13:54 : <Hippy> I am seeking interpretation on the rules of 'Diplomacy'.
2014-01-04 15:14:36 : <Larry> Diplomacy is ancient. I never got involved myself.
2014-01-04 15:14:57 : <Hippy> Ah...well, there goes my last resource :(
2014-01-04 15:16:11 : <dmac44> I stepped away for a minute. Happy New Year Larry.
2014-01-04 15:17:40 : <dmac44> Larry, are you working on any new novels?
2014-01-04 15:19:45 : "Larry" left the channel.
2014-01-04 15:20:08 : <Hippy> Ah...see, he should've sacrificed a chicken
2014-01-04 15:20:25 : "Larry" joined the channel.
2014-01-04 15:20:31 : <sean> wb
2014-01-04 15:20:32 : <Hippy> Welcome back, Larry
2014-01-04 15:20:35 : <Larry> oops.
2014-01-04 15:21:10 : <sean> I know how that goes.
2014-01-04 15:21:50 : <Larry> My news: Wendy All is back in thr writing game. That means AVOGADRO'S WORLD is also back.
2014-01-04 15:22:53 : <dmac44> That's a children's book to teach science isn't it?
2014-01-04 15:23:44 : <Larry> This was a triple collaboration twenty years ago. In the middle, Wendy signed a noncompetition contract with Mattell. So this children's book has been in limbo all that time.
2014-01-04 15:25:27 : <Hippy> This sounds interesting
2014-01-04 15:25:54 : <Hippy> A children's science book would be about my level :)
2014-01-04 15:26:04 : <Larry> It's good fiction, and it'll be heavily illustrated by Wendy.
2014-01-04 15:26:25 : <Hippy> Ah...that's where I know the name from
2014-01-04 15:26:41 : <Larry> and of course it'll be largely about light and sight.
2014-01-04 15:27:21 : <Hippy> Sounds excellent. When will it come out?
2014-01-04 15:27:42 : <Larry> Wendy was involved in setting up the Draco Tavern as the Con Suite at Comicfest this year. In San Diego.
2014-01-04 15:28:05 : <Hippy> I shoul've gone to that
2014-01-04 15:28:23 : <Hippy> Also, I should've put a 'd' in there
2014-01-04 15:28:34 : <Larry> When will it come out? We haven't even sold it yet. At one time it belonged to Baen Books.
2014-01-04 15:29:15 : <Hippy> So it may be a while off. In the meantime,, I can look forward to 'Shipstar'
2014-01-04 15:29:44 : <Larry> yeah, SHIPSTAR is due April 2014.
2014-01-04 15:30:06 : <Hippy> It's a long three months...
2014-01-04 15:30:28 : <Hippy> And can I ask some questions about 'Goliath Stone'?
2014-01-04 15:30:37 : <Larry> BOWL OF HEAVEN made me nervous in that we found no good place to end the book. We quit in the middle.
2014-01-04 15:30:41 : <sean> so I really need to put Bowl on the new kindle. Shipstar is the 2nd half, right?
2014-01-04 15:31:14 : <Hippy> It would've been a huge book in one lump, though
2014-01-04 15:31:17 : <Larry> GOLIATH STONE, sure, ask. But the book has been out for months.
2014-01-04 15:31:39 : <Hippy> Oh, yes. And a damn good read it is, too. However...
2014-01-04 15:31:43 : <Larry> yes, Sean. one novel in two volumes.
2014-01-04 15:32:30 : <Hippy> I don't get some of the ereferencces. Why is Connors' email ID 'Moonseller'? I dont' get how that refers to the Henry Kuttner story where the robot's name was 'Joe'
2014-01-04 15:32:34 : <Larry> Hippy, glad you liked it. I was most entertained myself.
2014-01-04 15:33:18 : <Hippy> I was smirking every time I got a reference - and some bits of it seem to come straight from this chat!
2014-01-04 15:33:27 : <Larry> "Moonseller" surely referred to Heinlein's "The Man Who Sold the Moon".
2014-01-04 15:33:39 : <Hippy> That's what I thought
2014-01-04 15:34:15 : <Hippy> But the book says it refers to the Henry Kuttner story about the robot that opens cans of beer (spoiler alert).
2014-01-04 15:34:39 : <Larry> Hmmm.
2014-01-04 15:35:01 : <Hippy> I've only got it on th KIndle so I can't quote the page numbers :(
2014-01-04 15:35:43 : <Larry> I don't have a copy handy anyway.
2014-01-04 15:35:46 : <Hippy> Never mind, that was the only error I could see. The other things are just things I don't find plausible, which is just a matter of opinion.
2014-01-04 15:36:37 : <Hippy> But I just loved Connors' attitude to public domain
2014-01-04 15:36:58 : <Larry> yeah. I think the Dinosaur Killer fell at Chixulub, but Matthew liked Iceland so I gave him that. We weren't going for plausibility.
2014-01-04 15:37:39 : <Larry> The Iceland answer is so cool.
2014-01-04 15:37:44 : <Hippy> An independent Western Australia? I larfed and larfed :)
2014-01-04 15:40:30 : <Larry> was that a conversation killer?
2014-01-04 15:40:52 : <Hippy> A lot of Perth patriots here, it seems
2014-01-04 15:41:21 : <Hippy> I'm just looking for the quote on public domain, beause I think it's very important
2014-01-04 15:42:42 : <Larry> I may never get to Perth. It's directly opposite me on the planet.
2014-01-04 15:43:03 : <Hippy> â€œSo?â€ he said. â€œAs far as Iâ€™m concerned, public domain is a crime against civilization. Patent and copyright should be nonsalable, permanent, and hereditary. Theyâ€™re the only form of nobility that is always earned.â€¦ Alice, on reflection Iâ€™m pretty sure youâ€™re not her.â€
2014-01-04 15:43:03 : <Hippy> Niven, Larry; Harrington, Matthew Joseph (2013-06-25). The Goliath Stone (Kindle Locations 2265-2268). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
2014-01-04 15:43:40 : <Hippy> The Kindle does love to cite
2014-01-04 15:44:41 : <Hippy> Yes, it's 21 hours or so on the plane for you. Not fun.
2014-01-04 15:45:23 : <Larry> I don't like his approach any better than 'Information wants to be free." Copyright should be finite. The Mouse should have been freed years ago.
2014-01-04 15:46:03 : <Jim> Some information should be free. Old translations of religious books and the like.
2014-01-04 15:46:13 : "Jim" left the channel.
2014-01-04 15:46:26 : "Jim" joined the channel.
2014-01-04 15:46:28 : <Hippy> Oh. Then I assume Connors' approach is a Heinlein idea?
2014-01-04 15:46:48 : <Hippy> Jim. Long time, no see!
2014-01-04 15:47:27 : <Jim> Yes, my internet connection is flaky today.
2014-01-04 15:47:48 : <Larry> Heinlein: not sure. I'm not even sure it's a Harrington idea. It's a Connors idea: fits the character.
2014-01-04 15:48:14 : <Larry> Connors, after all, is crazy.
2014-01-04 15:48:34 : <Hippy> His character seems very Heinlein-like, though (unless Wade Curtis is Heinlein)
2014-01-04 15:48:50 : <Hippy> Ah, crazy. I didn't get that
2014-01-04 15:49:07 : <Larry> Wade Curtis, of course, is always Jerry Pournelle.
hangs his head in shame
2014-01-04 15:49:34 : <Hippy> I totally didn't get that
2014-01-04 15:49:50 : <Hippy> However it does put him nicely into context
2014-01-04 15:50:26 : <sean> Wade Curtis was definitely Jerry in Footfall.
2014-01-04 15:50:27 : <Hippy> Are larry and I the only two who've read it? No-one else is asking questions!
2014-01-04 15:50:30 : <Jim> How painful is a catheter? I would not mind 21 hours in a chair, if I did not have to get up and go pee.
2014-01-04 15:51:03 : <Hippy> I can report that a catheter is not painful, but is definitely a feeling to be avoided
2014-01-04 15:51:25 : <sean> I have not read Goliath Stone.
2014-01-04 15:51:28 : <Larry> 21 hours in a chair would kill my butt. Getting up to go pee would be vital exercise.
2014-01-04 15:52:05 : <Jim> It is practically impossible for a person of my height and width to go pee in an airplane.
2014-01-04 15:52:21 : <Hippy> Plus, where does the catherer lead to Jim? I mean, really...
2014-01-04 15:52:32 : <Jim> I like automobiles.
2014-01-04 15:52:51 : <sean> yeah but it is hard to drive to Oz
2014-01-04 15:52:58 : <dmac44> Wasn't there a study done of airline passangers. Sitting too long increased the chance of blood clots? We did evolve to sit down for long periods of time.
2014-01-04 15:53:10 : <Larry> jim, where are you that you can drive to Perth?
2014-01-04 15:53:56 : <dmac44> didn't
2014-01-04 15:54:04 : <Jim> There are commercial transports for moving automobiles across the ocean.
2014-01-04 15:54:06 : <sean> I could drive to Perth but it would take a lot of fuel.
2014-01-04 15:54:27 : <Hippy> I could drive to Perth if I could drive at all
2014-01-04 15:54:34 : <Jim> Sean has a amphibian auto?
2014-01-04 15:55:27 : <Hippy> dmac, i seem to recall that the research on deep vein thrombosis has been found to be flawed, but still it's a risk, I suppose.
2014-01-04 15:55:43 : <sean> I have my Dad's 70 foot twin diesel houseboat. would take forever. and would probably have to meet a tanker between say singapore and australia.
2014-01-04 15:56:13 : <Jim> I suppose we could all chip in for diesel fuel.
2014-01-04 15:56:29 : <Larry> cool!
2014-01-04 15:56:35 : <Hippy> Nonetheless, getting up for a pee is probably enouh execise to keep tjhe thromboses at bay for the duration of the flight - plus you get a break in Sydney, San Francisco and bloody Denver which can never be avoided at any price!
2014-01-04 15:57:15 : <Jim> I can pee in one of those wide mouth Mountain Dew bottles.
2014-01-04 15:57:33 : <Hippy> Only on Delta, Jim
2014-01-04 15:58:04 : <Hippy> Plus you could chill the product and sell it back to Pepsi
2014-01-04 15:59:10 : <sean> longest trip on it so far was 1400 miles from below cincinatti on the ohio to fort walton florida.
2014-01-04 15:59:18 : <sean> 1400 miles over 23 days.
2014-01-04 15:59:35 : "gofffan" joined the channel.
2014-01-04 15:59:51 : <sean> hiya goffan
2014-01-04 15:59:56 : <Hippy> So, figure about seven months to get to Perth, via the Cape of Good Hope
2014-01-04 15:59:57 : <gofffan> Hey Sean
2014-01-04 16:00:05 : <Hippy> Hi, gofffan
2014-01-04 16:00:10 : <gofffan> Hey Hippy
2014-01-04 16:00:11 : <Jim> I seem to recall stories about an elderly Biology I teacher at WVU who said that semen was mostly glucose and did not want to field questions as to why it tasted salty.
2014-01-04 16:00:30 : <Jim> elderly female Biology I instructor
2014-01-04 16:01:08 : <sean> I have seen that joke about 50 times.
2014-01-04 16:05:14 : <sean> so, gofffan, have you ever played Diplomacy?
2014-01-04 16:06:07 : <gofffan> Never even heard of it ...
2014-01-04 16:06:19 : <Hippy> Ah...
2014-01-04 16:06:27 : <Hippy> Fred is my last hope
2014-01-04 16:06:47 : <Hippy> Well, and the Internet, I suppose
2014-01-04 16:06:59 : <sean> Hippy seemed to forget he was asking about it earlier. ;)
2014-01-04 16:07:01 : <Hippy> I have a rules question, gofffan
2014-01-04 16:07:17 : <gofffan> Ah. I see it on Wiki, of course.
2014-01-04 16:07:22 : <Hippy> I was making a cup of tea
2014-01-04 16:07:39 : <Larry> I'm the only one old enough to remember Diplomacy. I vaguely know it's a lying and cheating and ganging up game that caused little wars in fandom.
2014-01-04 16:07:51 : <Hippy> gofffan, have you read 'Goliath Stone'?
2014-01-04 16:08:04 : <sean> well, sounds like diplomacy anyway. ;)
2014-01-04 16:08:10 : <Hippy> That's the one, Larry
2014-01-04 16:08:21 : <gofffan> Not yet, Hippy.
2014-01-04 16:09:21 : <gofffan> On my list, of course.
2014-01-04 16:09:32 : <Hippy> It's well worth it
2014-01-04 16:09:44 : <gofffan> Top of the list now :)
2014-01-04 16:09:53 : <sean> Larry, did you say that you and Jerry were doing an updated Lucifer's Hammer?
2014-01-04 16:11:06 : <Larry> NO updated Lucifer's Hammer. For years we had another earth-smasher, but we dropped it.
2014-01-04 16:11:21 : <sean> ok
2014-01-04 16:11:47 : <Larry> An updated Lucifer's Hammer was suggested, but we thought it was a poor idea.
2014-01-04 16:12:05 : <sean> maybe thats what I was thinking of.
2014-01-04 16:14:26 : <Hippy> I thought there was a Lucifer's Anvil where you, you two, were going to concengtrate on education
2014-01-04 16:14:59 : <Larry> Hippy: yes. It's in Limbo if not dead.
2014-01-04 16:15:46 : <Hippy> It would be a pity if it died. Your thoughts on education would be something to read
2014-01-04 16:16:03 : <sean> maybe THAT was what I was thinking of. ;)
2014-01-04 16:16:36 : <Larry> Lucifer's Anvil was my attempt to get Jerry going again after he killed off the tumor in his brain. Poor idea: it was too complex, not a good training exercise.
2014-01-04 16:17:20 : <Larry> real problem was that it used not enough of my own skills. I couldn't help enough.
2014-01-04 16:17:29 : <Hippy> Hmm. I can thnk of few other people who could rise to that challenge, though
2014-01-04 16:19:02 : <Hippy> Yes, I can sort of see what you mean, Larry.
2014-01-04 16:19:26 : <Hippy> Well, 'Burning Mountain', then :)
2014-01-04 16:20:49 : <Hippy> That's where you can really use your skills
2014-01-04 16:20:56 : <Jim> Burning Mountain, NSW?
2014-01-04 16:21:06 : <Larry> 'Burning Mountain" would have been an easier task. It should have worked. Basic problem emerged: Jerry doesn't write text any more. He can plot, but text just doesn't happen.
2014-01-04 16:21:26 : <Hippy> Oh...
2014-01-04 16:21:53 : <Jim> Could the problem be the location of the dearly departed brain tumor?
2014-01-04 16:22:47 : <Larry> The new project is a "Heorot" novella with Steven Barnes. He's okay with doing most of the text.
2014-01-04 16:23:11 : <Hippy> Looking forward to that
2014-01-04 16:23:27 : <sean> cool. I like the Heorot universe.
2014-01-04 16:23:33 : <Hippy> Have you heard anything about 'Ringworld' for TV?
2014-01-04 16:24:27 : <Hippy> I was just thinking that your education thing might do well on the 'Destiny's Road' planet (that I can't remember the name of)
2014-01-04 16:25:37 : <sean> Destiny?
2014-01-04 16:25:57 : <Hippy> Was it? It probably was
2014-01-04 16:26:42 : <Larry> Ringworld: nothing solid.
2014-01-04 16:27:35 : <sean> That is in the Heorot universe. I remember a reference to the avalon colony that had not been heard from. of course, my memory is questionable as always.
2014-01-04 16:27:44 : <Larry> Education on Destiny: not a bad idea, but misses the point. We were trying to save civilization in The USA.
2014-01-04 16:28:36 : <sean> Destiny's draw is that the caravans could start educating the outlying villages.
2014-01-04 16:28:38 : <Larry> The Heorot novella hasn't jelled yet. Maybe we include a mission from Destiny; I've offered.
2014-01-04 16:31:31 : <sean> It's been a while since I read Destiny's Road. I don't recall any references to space industry. <Straining brain> except maybe a tour of a lander.
2014-01-04 16:32:26 : <Larry> It's there, barely. They've got a working Phoenix style one-stage vehicle.
2014-01-04 16:33:23 : <Hippy> But if you give it a century or so, the State will come sniffing after them
2014-01-04 16:34:15 : <dmac44> I didn't think there was a State in the Destiny's Road universe.
2014-01-04 16:34:50 : <Hippy> Hmm. Isn't there a reference to Avalon in 'The Integral Trees'?
2014-01-04 16:35:02 : <Larry> dmac44 is right. different universe.
2014-01-04 16:35:40 : <Larry> Hippy: maybe. I can't remember.
2014-01-04 16:36:14 : <Hippy> No, actually I think it's a reference in 'Destiny's Road' to the Smoke Ring
curses that his books are packed away
2014-01-04 16:37:15 : <sean> It's been too long since I have read Road to be sure, but I think it was a reference to Avalon.
2014-01-04 16:37:59 : <Larry> I don't want to involve the State in Destiny's Road or Avalon.
2014-01-04 16:38:17 : <Hippy> Got it! Earth stops communicating in 'Beoiwulf;s Children' and the State is an all encompassing information web...no, hang on. I'm clutching at straws here
2014-01-04 16:38:57 : <sean> but the State would of sent the colony but it was funded by National Geographic.
2014-01-04 16:38:59 : <Hippy> Ah, well, it's your choice, of course, Larry
2014-01-04 16:39:03 : <Larry> But we three do think that Earth civilization may have turned weird. Inward.
2014-01-04 16:40:27 : <gofffan> Larry: Interesting idea. It seems to be starting now.
2014-01-04 16:40:32 : <Larry> That happens in many of my collaborations. Maybe we're all turning cynical.
2014-01-04 16:40:53 : <Hippy> So effectively there are no barbarians outside the solar system and the State could evolve not out of a series of brushfire wars (a la 'World out of Time') but out of the inward-focussed civilisation.
2014-01-04 16:40:59 : <Jim> I think that Earth's civilization has turned weirdly inward since 1972.
2014-01-04 16:42:25 : <dmac44> Jim, what do you mean?
2014-01-04 16:42:30 : <gofffan> End of NASA and the Moon.
2014-01-04 16:42:48 : <gofffan> ?
2014-01-04 16:42:55 : <Jim> Yes, Goffan.
2014-01-04 16:43:00 : <dmac44> China seems to be going outward.
2014-01-04 16:43:10 : <sean> I could throw out the awesome and terrible Pournelle quote if you wish. :(
2014-01-04 16:43:14 : <Hippy> China's just doing the land grab
2014-01-04 16:43:23 : <Hippy> Oh, and another brillliant bit from '
2014-01-04 16:43:36 : <dmac44> That may be true but it's still out there.
2014-01-04 16:43:44 : <Hippy> 'Goliath Stone'. China vs India! Love it!!!
2014-01-04 16:44:15 : <Hippy> What awesome and terrible Pournelle quote?
2014-01-04 16:44:31 : <sean> 'I always knew I would see the first man on the moon. I never dreamed I would see the last.' --Jerry Pournelle
2014-01-04 16:44:53 : <gofffan> Oh man. How true.
2014-01-04 16:45:03 : <Hippy> Ah, yes. That's damn good
2014-01-04 16:45:38 : <Larry> yes.
2014-01-04 16:45:49 : <dmac44> He may not see the last. But the next will probably be Chinese.
2014-01-04 16:46:06 : <sean> thats the way things are looking.
2014-01-04 16:46:17 : <dmac44> Maybe we'll get a good old fashinoed space race out of this. That would help.
2014-01-04 16:46:51 : <Hippy> â€œAnd if they happen to drop it on India by mistake, â€˜oops,â€™ right?â€
2014-01-04 16:46:52 : <sean> Not really seeing that happening.
2014-01-04 16:46:53 : <Hippy> Niven, Larry; Harrington, Matthew Joseph (2013-06-25). The Goliath Stone (Kindle Locations 1927-1928). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
2014-01-04 16:47:29 : <Jim> Having the Chinese take out the USAF's orbital spy satellite could start one.
2014-01-04 16:48:02 : <Hippy> The sad thing is that the racers would probably be China and India, and India doesn't have the capability to do a moon mission
2014-01-04 16:48:31 : <Hippy> But America could certainly afford a moon mission
2014-01-04 16:48:48 : <dmac44> Having said that, I'm not sure China will make a successful transistion to the next level of economic development and be able to afford landing men on the moon.
2014-01-04 16:49:03 : <Hippy> China on the moon would not be good. They can't pronounce TANSTAAFL
2014-01-04 16:49:14 : <Larry> can you see us doing a Moon mission with money borrowed from China?
2014-01-04 16:49:31 : <Hippy> Yes
2014-01-04 16:49:56 : <dmac44> I didn't say it was good. From a human perspective it would be a man on the moon. But I would prefer the US to be behind the exploration of the solar system.
2014-01-04 16:50:46 : <sean> I agree dmac
2014-01-04 16:51:24 : <dmac44> The Chinese banking system has serious problems. China is going to need all of that money to recapitalize their banking system.
2014-01-04 16:51:44 : <sean> I just don't see the political will to be the nation is space. We are buying rides from the Russians for heaven's sake.
2014-01-04 16:51:45 : <Hippy> Not while Americans can spend
2014-01-04 16:51:53 : <sean> nation in
2014-01-04 16:53:16 : <Hippy> One thing is for sure - barring a miracle, Australia won't be on the Moon any time soon :)
2014-01-04 16:53:31 : <gofffan> It's like, "We have to go because we want to go" OR "We want to go because we have to go." Would the threat of another nation taking over the higher ground force the issue?
2014-01-04 16:53:34 : <sean> I see the Dragon guys being the only hope for America
2014-01-04 16:54:09 : <sean> space wise that is.
2014-01-04 16:55:18 : <Larry> lunchtime. I'll be back.
2014-01-04 16:55:27 : <sean> kk
2014-01-04 16:55:58 : <Hippy> Good time to snatch some breakfast here, but I shall be reading along while munhing
2014-01-04 16:56:01 : <Jim> .weather KEKN
2014-01-04 16:56:02 : <Outsider> Clear â˜¼, 39.2â„‰ (4â„ƒ), 30.11in (1016mb), Light breeze 6kt (â†‘) - KEKN 21:51Z
2014-01-04 16:56:57 : <Hippy> If Fred comes on, let him know I've already thought of 'good time for some breakfast snatch' and discarded it :)
2014-01-04 16:57:28 : <sean> yeah, Jim, I talked to the author of the bot (emailed) and he has not been developing it and things with it will break over time because it depends on other sites. thats why the .weather zipcode quit working.
2014-01-04 16:59:19 : <sean> guess I should look for a new bot to put in here.
2014-01-04 17:02:11 : <Jim> thanks
2014-01-04 17:02:38 : <dmac44> AFK
2014-01-04 17:02:47 : <Jim> KEKN = Elkins, WV about 30 miles away from here
2014-01-04 17:03:21 : <sean> you guys can always put your google-fu to it and give me a hand by mentioning bots that have the capabilities that you want.
2014-01-04 17:03:46 : <sean> KLOU for me... about 40 miles.
2014-01-04 17:04:05 : <sean> but to the west so it fortells whats coming.
2014-01-04 17:05:37 : <Jim> http://www.hawkee.com/snippet/7010/
2014-01-04 17:06:49 : <sean> thats an mIRC script. not a bot that would reside in channel.
2014-01-04 17:07:42 : <sean> Outsider is the phenny IRC bot. you can google for a reference.
2014-01-04 17:09:17 : <sean> still here ;)
2014-01-04 17:10:35 : <Jim> gotta go, see you later
2014-01-04 17:10:46 : <sean> later, Jim
2014-01-04 17:10:47 : <Hippy> 'Bye, Jum
2014-01-04 17:10:52 : <gofffan> Bye Jim
2014-01-04 17:11:14 : <Hippy> Don't forget to grab a catheer while you're outQ
growls at this stupid keyboard
2014-01-04 17:11:57 : <sean> USA has ads all the time for catheters.
2014-01-04 17:12:05 : <sean> the tv channel that is.
2014-01-04 17:13:53 : "Jim" left the channel.
2014-01-04 17:13:53 : <Hippy> I suppose they've become something of a fashion statement there
2014-01-04 17:14:19 : <Hippy> Like a colostomy bag that plays show tunes
2014-01-04 17:15:48 : <dmac44> Back.
2014-01-04 17:16:16 : "NickE" joined the channel.
2014-01-04 17:16:47 : <sean> hi nick
2014-01-04 17:16:48 : <NickE> (late - forgot!)
2014-01-04 17:17:18 : <sean> do i have to put you on the separate email list, nick?
2014-01-04 17:17:48 : <Hippy> Hi, Nick
2014-01-04 17:18:03 : <NickE> no, just clean forgot even tho
2014-01-04 17:18:07 : <NickE> I sa
2014-01-04 17:18:14 : <NickE> saw the reminder
2014-01-04 17:18:22 : <gofffan> Hi Nick
2014-01-04 17:18:38 : <sean> NIck, you ever play Diplomacy?
2014-01-04 17:18:39 : <Hippy> Have you ever played 'Diplomacy', NIck?
2014-01-04 17:18:55 : <Hippy> Yes, what Sean said
2014-01-04 17:19:17 : <NickE> hi all - no...but I did play Cards Against Humanity and was in pain from teh laugher for hours :-)
2014-01-04 17:19:41 : <Hippy> I shall have to look into that
2014-01-04 17:20:23 : <gofffan> My list is growing.
2014-01-04 17:21:10 : <sean> of games to check out?
2014-01-04 17:21:20 : <NickE> very funny game, easy to play - you just need a warped sense of humour :-)
2014-01-04 17:21:33 : <gofffan> Goliath Stone and two games --- so far
2014-01-04 17:22:36 : <sean> oh, Nick, Larry is eating lunch but said he will be back.
2014-01-04 17:22:44 : <NickE> cool
2014-01-04 17:22:48 : <Larry> Hi. I'm back from lunch.
2014-01-04 17:22:59 : <sean> well, there ya go.
2014-01-04 17:23:04 : <NickE> heh
2014-01-04 17:23:46 : <NickE> Happy New Year Larry and everyone (rather belated, but there you go :-)
2014-01-04 17:25:24 : <Hippy> Now where were we? More moon missions
2014-01-04 17:25:41 : <sean> thats where we were, Hippy.
2014-01-04 17:26:01 : <fredskue_> Hippy New Year!
2014-01-04 17:26:52 : <Larry> I might prefer asteroid missions to Moon missions. Decided long ago that I preferred asteroids to Mars.
2014-01-04 17:27:12 : <dmac44> Why, less energy to get there?
2014-01-04 17:27:16 : <sean> asteroids make more sense.
2014-01-04 17:27:23 : <Hippy> Hi, Fred
2014-01-04 17:27:41 : <sean> but you can make fuel on Mars.
2014-01-04 17:27:50 : <gofffan> hello Fred
2014-01-04 17:27:55 : <Larry> less energy and more to gain. Stop the next dinosaur killer. Mine for the metals.
2014-01-04 17:28:16 : <gofffan> 2 birds ...
2014-01-04 17:28:28 : <Larry> fuel from Mars: yeah, good argument.
2014-01-04 17:28:37 : <dmac44> I tend to think it doesn't matter where we go. Just so we do. But if we can go to the moon we can go to the asteroids.
2014-01-04 17:29:00 : <sean> methane and oxygen. plenty specific impulse to get back.
2014-01-04 17:29:46 : <sean> cant justify scoop mining jupiter and saturn until we have fusion drives.
2014-01-04 17:29:57 : <Hippy> What about radio trlescopes on the dark side of the moon? Would that be a better spot than an asteroid?
2014-01-04 17:32:07 : <dmac44> Larry, I know that asteroids are supposed to have a lot of metals but what are the concentrations? Do we have the technology to separate out the various metals. And if we do, wouldn't that tech (or some of it) be useful on Earth?
2014-01-04 17:32:11 : <sean> but plenty of fuel on the saturn moon they dropped the huygens probe on... titan?
2014-01-04 17:32:48 : <Hippy> I"m with dmac on that one
2014-01-04 17:33:10 : <Hippy> Also, should we explore space before we exploit it?
2014-01-04 17:33:38 : <dmac44> Explore/exploit go hand in hand.
2014-01-04 17:33:41 : <Hippy> I think the mining process for asteroids consists of melting out the metals with solar mirrors, which isn't too practical on Earrth
2014-01-04 17:34:29 : <dmac44> Okay, and then? What's the next step to separate out the metals?
2014-01-04 17:35:04 : <Hippy> Wll, they boil out and strATIFY as they cool, I think
2014-01-04 17:35:46 : <sean> metals have a different melting/condesation point. thats how you seperate them
2014-01-04 17:35:47 : <Hippy> Factories are in orbit so the metals are moved there
2014-01-04 17:36:14 : <Larry> There have been schemes. I don't know what is current for mining an asteroid. I liked the O'Leary approach...but I flinch from bringing an asteroid that close to Earth. do you feel lucky?
2014-01-04 17:36:25 : <Hippy> I'm no sure how the products would get back to Earth, so you get a Belt civlisation out of the people who can use the metals
2014-01-04 17:37:41 : <sean> I would prefer mining the belt instead of bringing one back. all it takes is one meter/foot error and you have destroyed the earth.
2014-01-04 17:38:13 : <dmac44> So, in a zero G vacuum you can control the melting and condensation of metals. I am not an expert but it sounds too simple to me.
2014-01-04 17:39:32 : <Hippy> You have much more available melting power than you do down here
2014-01-04 17:39:46 : <sean> nobody is an expert. it has never been done.
2014-01-04 17:40:21 : <dmac44> I agree you can vaporize the metals but then what. How would you condense the metals differentially?
2014-01-04 17:40:35 : <Hippy> Of course, your smelting mirrors or Fresnel lenses are a handy weapon to use on the Earth. TANSTAAFL!
2014-01-04 17:40:38 : <sean> but structural metals are magnetic
2014-01-04 17:40:53 : <sean> if they are already in space, steel becomes an option.
2014-01-04 17:41:15 : <sean> aluminum is not magnetic so that is an interesting question
2014-01-04 17:41:31 : <sean> I understand that steel is an iron alloy
2014-01-04 17:42:08 : <dmac44> The really valuable ones on Earth aren't very magnetic. Gold, silver, etc. And at the beginning, those would be the reason to mine out there.
2014-01-04 17:42:53 : <sean> actually, I think the first reason would be for expanded space infrastructure.
2014-01-04 17:43:22 : <sean> when space got cheap enough for the gold hunters to get there. i agree.
2014-01-04 17:43:35 : <dmac44> Chicken and the egg.
2014-01-04 17:43:51 : <sean> no argument
2014-01-04 17:44:06 : <Hippy> But don't they condense out in layers due to different solidifying points? All you have to do is stop heating them and they;ll condense out in layers
2014-01-04 17:44:39 : <sean> with no knowledge of the smelting industry, I would agree, Hippy
2014-01-04 17:44:42 : <dmac44> Hippy: I don't know. But we need to have some idea before we go.
2014-01-04 17:44:46 : <Hippy> As to the economivs of it, you would probably mine for nickel first, because you already know it's there
2014-01-04 17:45:22 : <dmac44> Having said that, there are some startups that have made news lately that claim they want to capture and mine a small asteroid.
2014-01-04 17:45:25 : <Hippy> Gold, silver, sapphires etc would be incidentals
2014-01-04 17:46:09 : <Hippy> I can imagine the red tape involved in that. I think I will plough my moolah into one of Dr Benford's biotech companies
2014-01-04 17:46:17 : <sean> actually, if you are going to mine the belt from the belt... your first interest would be hydrate bearing asteroids so you can replenish consumables.
2014-01-04 17:46:23 : <dmac44> not clear to me you would find sapphires on asteroids. Depends how they form.
2014-01-04 17:46:57 : <Hippy> I'm not sure either, dmac
2014-01-04 17:47:06 : <Hippy> Coal is probably ruled out, though
2014-01-04 17:47:16 : <dmac44> I don't think anyone would go directly to the Belt to mine. First closer in, I suspect.
2014-01-04 17:47:35 : <sean> yeah... near earth asteroids. agreed
2014-01-04 17:48:00 : <Hippy> If you mined the moon's Trojan points, then parked your asteroids there. That should be safe
2014-01-04 17:48:36 : <Hippy> It's a question of time, too. How long does it take to get to these NEO's?
2014-01-04 17:49:04 : <sean> more time than anything we have can handle
2014-01-04 17:49:04 : <dmac44> However, if you did find sapphires, dope them. Then just put a big flash bulb around the asteroid and use the resulting laser for propulsion/death ray. :)
2014-01-04 17:49:50 : <sean> regardless of what the shuttles can do in earthstorm and armageddon. ;)
2014-01-04 17:50:34 : <gofffan> Guys - gotta go for today. Thanks and happy new year to all.
2014-01-04 17:50:37 : <dmac44> Yeah, hold the Earth hostage for 1 million dollars.
2014-01-04 17:50:43 : "gofffan" left the channel.
2014-01-04 17:50:50 : <Hippy> Good idea, dmac In fact, firing your laser at the Earth gives you the propulsion to flee the authorities
2014-01-04 17:51:19 : <dmac44> and if they are in your laser exhaust ...
2014-01-04 17:51:37 : <Hippy> That would be...unfortunate
2014-01-04 17:51:51 : <sean> that would actually work... the laser escape. super low acceleration but since we can launch nothing....
2014-01-04 17:51:51 : <Hippy> Remember the Kzinti lession
2014-01-04 17:51:58 : <dmac44> Exactly.
2014-01-04 17:52:37 : <dmac44> But back to asteroid mining. I would be interested if anyone has thought through the extraction process ideas.
2014-01-04 17:52:52 : <Hippy> Okay, so a chasing spacecraft with a mirror on the front bounces your blue-shifted laser back at you...
pictures Larry scribbling down a couple of ideas
2014-01-04 17:53:56 : <sean> dmac, that is an interesting question. I will put my google-fu on it tomorrow while i redo a laptop.
2014-01-04 17:54:46 : <dmac44> Guys, I've got to go. See you next month.
2014-01-04 17:55:07 : <Hippy> If you spin your asteroid for centri - er, petal? Whatever, force, woudl this provide gravity to have the liquid metals stratify?
2014-01-04 17:55:15 : <Hippy> 'Bye, dmac
2014-01-04 17:55:26 : "dmac44" left the channel.
2014-01-04 17:55:53 : <sean> I just wrote asteroid mining metal extraction on my white board. I will look it up tomorrow.
2014-01-04 17:55:53 : <Hippy> Denser metals on the outside, I would think
2014-01-04 17:56:16 : <sean> I don't think so.
2014-01-04 17:56:41 : <sean> If you spun and heated it from the outside... melted stuff would be flung away.
2014-01-04 17:57:01 : <Hippy> How fast are you spinning it?
2014-01-04 17:57:03 : <sean> it would take more delta V to collect it than it would be worth
2014-01-04 17:57:05 : <NickE> Got it. Solar Mirror to heat everything up in dumbel shaped containers (actually large cylinders to allow seperation) and spin the whole caboodle while everthing is molte. Differential densities settle out, siphon off liguid iron, aluminium, ltithium whatever. May even be able to have as a continuous process only stopping to chuck away the silica slag
2014-01-04 17:57:27 : <NickE> shit - cant type fats enougjht - way aheaed of me
2014-01-04 17:57:57 : <Hippy> What's the axis of rotation on the dumbbell?
2014-01-04 17:58:18 : <Hippy> Does it go over end over end, so to speak?
2014-01-04 17:58:41 : <NickE> Continuous feed centrifuges are used in some types of bio production
2014-01-04 17:59:04 : <Hippy> Ah, the asteroid is at the centre of the dumbbell
2014-01-04 17:59:22 : <NickE> Youd just have to engineer it to handle molten metals at 3000 degree or so
2014-01-04 17:59:50 : <Hippy> Fortunately I have some balonium...
2014-01-04 18:00:06 : <NickE> That works too. You'd actually have many radii of seperators with a rih deposit atsteroid
2014-01-04 18:00:43 : <NickE> You'd need some damn refractory stuff to build it of course
2014-01-04 18:01:16 : <Hippy> Has anyone heard of this graphite sheet thing. Supposedly one molecule thich and it can support forty kilos? Theoetically useful for a space elevator
2014-01-04 18:01:49 : <NickE> graphene
2014-01-04 18:01:51 : <NickE> ?
2014-01-04 18:02:19 : <Hippy> Possibly graphene
2014-01-04 18:03:20 : <Hippy> One molecule thick and supporting forty kilos? It's the Shatner girdle Mark II
2014-01-04 18:03:28 : <NickE> Actually - that may alow you to build a conventional type distillation apparatus - spun of course
2014-01-04 18:03:42 : <NickE> And hotter that usual :-)
2014-01-04 18:04:01 : <Hippy> Well, that's that problem solved
2014-01-04 18:05:48 : <NickE> and for our next trick...
2014-01-04 18:06:28 : <Hippy> Well, what about AI? Has it progressed since the 1970's?
2014-01-04 18:07:59 : <Hippy> I've been seeing that, with FTL drives more or less kiboshed by physics and whatnot, people seem to be lunging at AI's in the future as the next fantastic idea that gets the plot going. But are we any closer to AI than we were back then?
2014-01-04 18:08:18 : <NickE> no idea
2014-01-04 18:09:03 : <Hippy> I mean, AI is a convenient device, which hasn't yet been as kiboshed as FTL has
2014-01-04 18:10:33 : <NickE> sorry, gotta cut this short. HNY again - hopefully fcatch you all next month
2014-01-04 18:10:38 : <NickE> night
2014-01-04 18:10:43 : "NickE" left the channel.
2014-01-04 18:10:47 : <Hippy> Bye NIck
2014-01-04 18:11:47 : <Hippy> Maybe I came perilously close to the truth that Nick is an AI
2014-01-04 18:12:44 : <Hippy> Confronted by the impossibility of his own existence he is thrown into a loop like Kendy in 'The Integral Trees'
watches the tumbleweeds roll by
looks around like Frank Sinatra observing that it's 2:45AM
2014-01-04 18:32:25 : <Hippy> I hadn't thought of this until now, but maybe there's been a netsplit and it only looks like everyone else is here
2014-01-04 18:39:19 : <Larry> I dozed off. I've been catching up, reading all of this all at once. Asteroid mining tech seems on track on this thread. Hippy, we may be alone.
2014-01-04 18:39:54 : <Hippy> It seems like it, Larry
2014-01-04 18:40:10 : <Hippy> I thought my ISP had thrown a rod or something
2014-01-04 18:40:19 : <Larry> I maybe should start my working day. Happy New Year.
2014-01-04 18:40:35 : "Larry" left the channel.
2014-01-04 18:40:36 : <Hippy> Let me repeat how much I enjoyed 'Goloiath Stone'. Especially when it had references I couldn't get
2014-01-04 18:40:50 : <Hippy> 'Bye Larry
2014-01-04 18:41:43 : <Hippy> Well, it's time I was investigating purchasing US shares. See you all next month
2014-01-04 18:42:48 : "Hippy" left the channel.
2014-01-04 18:46:17 : <fredskue_> thanks again sean for hosting us!
2014-01-04 18:52:14 : "hclocksmi" left the channel.
2014-01-04 19:44:56 : "Akiraa" left the channel.
2014-01-04 19:49:51 : "Jim" joined the channel.
2014-01-04 19:50:24 : <Jim> I had a 12-inch bowl movement.
2014-01-04 20:18:39 : "Jim" left the channel.
2014-01-04 20:19:17 : <sean> now worries, fred.
2014-01-04 20:20:22 : <sean> will get back to work on the mail server in a couple of days.
2014-01-04 21:35:48 : "fredskue_" left the channel.
2014-01-04 21:39:05 : "fredskuentz" joined the channel.
2014-01-04 23:29:30 : "hclocksmi" joined the channel.