Error processing SSI file
Larryniven dot net Error processing SSI file
Error processing SSI file

Nov 10 17:30:02 <George_C> GP was based on EITC, a company that grew to give orders to the Crown.

Nov 10 17:30:21 <Lensman> The question is: If you can use hyperwave to probe inside a gravity well, why can't you use it for instant communications inside a gravity well? Why do they have to use laser relays in "the borderland of Sol" to pass messages to Earth?

Nov 10 17:30:42 <EML> The catch is, hyperwave should not work inside a gravity well. That's the case for hyperdrive and hyperradio -- and radar is just a radio echo.

Nov 10 17:31:32 <EML> Lensman -- exactly right. Hyper-radar should not work in the well.

Nov 10 17:31:36 <Lensman> Ed: Yes. That's what was giving me fits in my "Hyperspace Theory and Practice" article.

Nov 10 17:32:13 <George_C> Hyperwave used within the singularity, aimed at a planet, might show nothing . . . unless there's a stasis box on the planet. Then it shows an anomaly.

Nov 10 17:32:24 <EML> As for the British East India Company ... it was a crown creation given jurisdiction over India.

Nov 10 17:32:41 <Lensman> But I guess from what Larry said, the neutrino thing wasn't a deliberate retcon. At least not from his POV; perhaps it was from yours, Ed?

Nov 10 17:33:12 <George_C> Neutrino-based DR would show the shadow of the planet, density of it's makeup and core, etc.

Nov 10 17:33:23 <EML> George: the problem is, a hyperwave signal ought not to propagate inside the well, neither inbound nor as an echo outbound.

Nov 10 17:33:43 <Lensman> Ah, so the reference to the East India company indicates GP was given authority over Human Space?

Nov 10 17:34:37 <Dan> Exclusivity of access rather than authority, I'd guess.

Nov 10 17:34:38 <George_C> Like East India, GP also played fast and loose with the rules, doing what was best for the company, while seeming not to.

Nov 10 17:35:05 <EML> Exclusive authority and the notion of using the primitive natives' own money to control them.

Nov 10 17:35:28 <Lensman> Yah, the money thing was made explicit in FOW, IIRC.

Nov 10 17:35:42 <Dan> I sit corrected :)

Nov 10 17:36:47 <EML> About the deep radar inconsistency ... Larry & I spotted the inconsistency and picked a solution. Neutrinos seemed to fit best with everything else previously known or surmised.

Nov 10 17:37:32 <George_C> Ed: I concur. Hyperwave deep radar should not work within a system, just as hyperwave-based communication does not. Consider, however, the dispute over why ships can't use hyperdrive within a system.

Nov 10 17:38:06 <Lensman> As was observed very early in today's conversation, FOW touches on many subjects discussed on the list. IIRC it was I who pointed out that the four GP hull types couldn't be the only sizes possible, because the different number and size of holes in the hull indicated the hulls could *not* all be precisely the same volume, hence couldn't be the result of some sort of quantum limitation. Of course, that doesn't mean Larry got the idea from one of my po

Nov 10 17:38:21 <George_C> Neutrinos it is, then. In previous works, we may consider this retconned.

Nov 10 17:39:17 <George_C> Yeah, I liked the visit to the GP hull factory! Very cool.

Nov 10 17:39:47 <Lensman> Yes indeed, the visit to the GP factory was one of the books high points, for me!

Nov 10 17:40:00 <EML> the British East India Company is kinda fascinating. Check out Robert Clive sometime, or the Wars of the Carnatic.

Nov 10 17:40:14 <George_C> Poor Baedeker!

Nov 10 17:40:30 <EML> also back in JUGGLER ;-)

Nov 10 17:40:41 <Lensman> I realize there's a great deal I don't know about the British East India Company. I think the most I know is from one of the Flashman novels.

Nov 10 17:40:48 <George_C> Good. I kinda like him!

Nov 10 17:41:13 <Lensman> Baedeker: The Puppeteer you love to hate! :)

Nov 10 17:42:30 <EML> It's a bit of 20th century chauvinism that we invented world wars. The French & Indian Wars, the American revolution, the Napoleonic wars -- all world wars.

Nov 10 17:42:58 <EML> (The Wars of the Carnatic were the Indian subcontinent part of some of those early workd wars.)

Nov 10 17:43:07 <EML> worLd.

Nov 10 17:43:36 <Dan> It'd OK Ed, we speak typo here. :)

Nov 10 17:43:53 <Dan> See?

Nov 10 17:43:56 <Dan> LOL

Nov 10 17:44:18 <Lensman> One thing which surprised me was the lack of any mention of a stasis field used to stabilize the "neutronium traps". IIRC Brennan-monster stated he used a stasis field to stabilize his ball of neutronium, and in "The Borderland of Sol", Forward was using stasis fields, too. I thought it would have been a useful retcon to say the neutronium traps were wrapped in stasis fields.

Nov 10 17:45:18 <Lensman> Yes, if you can't translate typo, you'll never survive on the Internet! :D

Nov 10 17:45:29 <Dan> Hmmmmm... Lens, how would the gravity get out of a stasis field?

Nov 10 17:46:00 <George_C> Interesting that Nessus and the Citizens kept knowldege of stasis fields from the Colonists. Taught them to use deep radar, but not why?

Nov 10 17:46:09 <EML> Actually, there's a passing mention in chapter 27: "Uploading new calibrations for the implosion effect to the stasis-field generators. Baedeker sent new specs."

Nov 10 17:46:48 <Lensman> Gravity and momentum affects anything inside a stasis field, altho only in its entirety-- not independent action on separate things inside the field. Presumably the reverse is true.

Nov 10 17:47:32 <Lensman> Ed: Ah! Thanks, I neglected to put that in my notes.

Nov 10 17:48:16 <EML> gravity is a property of space time -- a "shape of space." There's nothing getting in or out of the stasis field.

Nov 10 17:49:11 <Dan> Rats! I thought I's finally found proof that gravity is faster than light. :)

Nov 10 17:49:45 <EML> Guys: herewith a twenty minute warning before I go to dinner.

Nov 10 17:49:53 <Dan> Never mind, very old joke.

Nov 10 17:51:00 <EML> Woe -- I struck y'all speechless.

Nov 10 17:51:06 <Dan> LOL

Nov 10 17:52:14 <Lensman> So, Ed, are you saying definitely stasis fields are used to stabilize the neutronium traps, or are you just saying there's a hint in FOW that this may be true?

Nov 10 17:52:15 <Dan> So what's the next project, Ed?

Nov 10 17:52:35 <George_C> Interesting point, Ed. The stasis field doesn't affect the mass of the object within, or it's affect on the shape of space. Of course, the boxes usually don't conatin enough mass to matter, if you'll pardon the pun.

Nov 10 17:53:37 <EML> Yes, Forward used a stasis field for his neutronium. More on the subject in (wait for it) JUGGLER.

Nov 10 17:54:10 <George_C> Good, because I seem to recall the object that killed the Trinoc ship Louis met was a ball of neutronium, no field. Am I mistaken, or may we assume Louis was unaware of it?

Nov 10 17:54:37 <EML> Dan: next project? Next up in book length is FOOLS' EXPERIMENTS, a near-future cyberthriller (out nominally 10/08)

Nov 10 17:54:54 <Lensman> Now it's official: Ed *is* a sadist! ;)

Nov 10 17:55:25 <Dan> Good, I like to hear that writers I like are keeping busy.

Nov 10 17:56:26 <George_C> ed, I will admit to not being familiar with your other work. What would you (or anyone else here) recommend as a good starting point?

Nov 10 17:56:30 <EML> Assume the trap in TIaT was created the same way. If the trap accreted more matter over the stasis field, that would be compressed into more neutronium.

Nov 10 17:57:07 <Lensman> George: I speculate in my KS Concordance that the neutronium "moon" in "There Is a Tide" might have had a stasis field around it, without Louis being aware of it. Would anything hitting the surface be pulled down so flat as to cause it to be shiny? I dunno, but that's my speculation, anyway.

Nov 10 17:57:34 <Dan> Good, that stops me from wondering how fast a stasis field could be made to strobe on and off and back on again.

Nov 10 17:58:03 <Lensman> I'd argue that it would just be degenerate matter; "collapsium" rather than neutronium. If neutronium was stable in such a small mass, it wouldn't need a stasis field around it.

Nov 10 17:58:04 <George_C> I suspect Louis would not consider the trap was a sphere within a field. Why would he?

Nov 10 17:58:23 <EML> Thanks, Dan. George, my two in-print solo books are the novel Moonstruck (2005, MMPB 2007) and the cyber-themed collection Creative Destruction (2006)

Nov 10 17:58:37 <Lensman> George: He wouldn't; that's why I think the retcon works so well.

Nov 10 17:58:59 <George_C> Thanks, Ed, I'll have a go at them!

Nov 10 17:59:04 <Lensman> I presume FOOLS' EXPERIMENT is not a Known Space story?

Nov 10 17:59:28 <EML> In FOW, we tried to flesh out the neutronium trap from TIaT -- motivate who was behind it and how they did it.

Nov 10 18:00:07 <EML> Lens: My only KS efforts to date have been FLEEET and JUGGLER.

Nov 10 18:00:19 <George_C> I had to agree with Nike (I think it was him), that such traps were foolish.

Nov 10 18:00:25 <Lensman> Ed: Yah, and I was amused to note the "paranoid" Trinoc was right about it being a deliberate trap. Louis thought it was just a piece of a smashed neutron star. He was wrong...

Nov 10 18:01:11 <George_C> "You are insufficiently cautious. I wonder that you have survived." Was that the Trinoc?

Nov 10 18:01:22 <Lensman> Ed, pardon my ignorance: Do you have series of your own? Is EXPERIMENT a stand-alone, or part of a series?

Nov 10 18:01:37 <Lensman> George: That sounds right.

Nov 10 18:02:34 <EML> A quick disclosure: the longest story in CREATIVE DESTRUCTION (called "Survival Instinct") is the core -- but less than 40% -- of the forthcoming novel FOOLS' EXPERIEMNTS.

Nov 10 18:02:48 <Lensman> Actually it's "...insufficiently suspicious".

Nov 10 18:03:11 <George_C> Ah! Thanks, Lensman.

Nov 10 18:03:54 <Lensman> :)

Nov 10 18:04:34 <EML> Lens: I do have a series (InterstellarNet), but it's been only in magazines (well, one story, "Creative Destruction" has been in a Year's Best" and is also in my collection).

Nov 10 18:04:48 <EML> Details at

Nov 10 18:05:47 <EML> But FOOLS EXPERIMENT *is* standalone and not part of a series. Ditto the one after that, SMALL MIRACLES, which is near-future nanotech.

Nov 10 18:06:17 <George_C> Ed, I'm wondering how one ends up writing a major collaboration with Larry? How did FOW come about?

Nov 10 18:06:29 <EML> End of commercial. Anything else you'd like to know about FLEET before I turn into a pumpkin?

Nov 10 18:06:37 <Lensman> Thanks, Ed. So do you think full-out neutronium could be formed on the surface of the neutronium traps, or would it just be degenerate matter? Maybe I'm wrong... if it's just a matter of sheer gravity, perhaps infalling matter would become dense 'nuff to form another layer of neutronium atop the stasis field.

Nov 10 18:06:49 <Dan> When is the paperback out?

Nov 10 18:07:39 <EML> George: long answer. I talked about it at

Nov 10 18:07:46 <Lensman> Ed: Well a hopefully quick question: Puppeteer/Companion gestation is said to be 1 year. Is that an Earth year or a Hearth year?

Nov 10 18:08:20 <George_C> Cool, thanks, Ed.

Nov 10 18:08:52 <EML> Dan: PB isn't scheduled yet, to my knowledge.

Nov 10 18:09:02 <Dan> Thanks.

Nov 10 18:09:21 <George_C> How long is a Hearth year?

Nov 10 18:10:25 <George_C> BTW, Ed, thanks for your time. I've been looking forward to this chat, and it's been fascinating!

Nov 10 18:10:29 <EML> Lens: you're probably correct that a few feet of neutronium wouldn't have enough gravity to squash infall into more neutronium. collapsium it is.

Nov 10 18:11:18 <EML> Earth vs. Hearth years? That'll come out in ...

Nov 10 18:11:26 <George_C> AAAAAAAAA!!!

Nov 10 18:11:26 <Lensman> AARGH!!

Nov 10 18:11:31 <George_C> LOL

Nov 10 18:11:33 <Dan> Juggler!

Nov 10 18:11:50 <George_C> That's Ed, always going for the Juggler! :-)

Nov 10 18:12:09 <Lensman> ROTFL! Two points for George!

Nov 10 18:12:22 <EML> Okay, all. I'm going to wrap up. It's been a lot of fun for me.

Nov 10 18:12:23 <George_C> Now the chat for JOW, that's gonna be something . . !

Nov 10 18:12:37 <George_C> Thanks again, Ed! Been a pleasure!

Nov 10 18:12:41 <Lensman> Thanks VERY much for attending, Ed. It's been wonderful.

Nov 10 18:12:47 <George_C> Indeed.

Nov 10 18:13:04 <jim_stiles> bye Ed

Nov 10 18:13:07 <Dan> Enjoy dinner, Ed. Thanks for the chat.

Nov 10 18:13:13 <Lensman> Goodnite Ed.

Nov 10 18:13:17 <EML> My pleasure, sincerely. Bye, all.

Nov 10 18:13:23 <George_C> Bye

Nov 10 18:13:29 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Nov 10 18:14:29 <George_C> I've missed a few monthly chats, but I wasn't missing this one, and I glad I didn't.

Nov 10 18:14:48 <Dan> This was a lot of fun.

Nov 10 18:14:55 <George_C> Sure was!

Nov 10 18:16:05 <George_C> FOW is a classic already, IMHO, and JOW should be awesome. Guess that chat they'll be telling us to wait for Smuggler!

Nov 10 18:16:20 <Dan> LOL!

Nov 10 18:16:34 <Lensman> :)

Nov 10 18:17:03 <George_C> I must admit that I expected more Listers to be here. Now how long do we wait until it's cool to start a FOW thread on the list . . ?

Nov 10 18:17:34 <George_C> One more week? Two?

Nov 10 18:17:54 <jim_stiles> The chat post mentioned something about a second wind that would come on about 1800 hrs PDT. Should I hang out until then?

Nov 10 18:18:37 <Dan> Dunno. Considering that I have to wait for the paperback edition in order to read the book, I'm not going to care about spoilers.

Nov 10 18:18:57 <George_C> That's in about two and 3/4 hours, might have more and different folks. I'll try to get back on.

Nov 10 18:19:27 <jim_stiles> Are MMPB generally released about 12 months after the handback?

Nov 10 18:19:47 <Dan> 9 to 12 months, usually.

Nov 10 18:19:52 <George_C> Maybe less, dependant on sales?

Nov 10 18:20:19 <Lensman> Jim: I can't make any promises about who will or won't show up. I think it's fairly clear neither Larry nor Ed will be back tonite. But I personally plan to stick around for anyone who wants to talk.

Nov 10 18:20:31 <Dan> Sometimes I get lucky and a publisher remembers that I do reviews for my e-zine, though.

Nov 10 18:21:13 <jim_stiles> Lensman, thanks for the information and your questions.

Nov 10 18:21:23 <Lensman> It *used* to be fairly standard for the pb to come out 12 months after the hc, but I don't know if that's as true as it used to be.

Nov 10 18:22:11 <Lensman> Jim: You're entirely welcome! :)

Nov 10 18:25:40 <jim_stiles> It has been my observation that Larry takes the marketing aspects of being an author (chats, e-mail list, conventions) more seriously than other authors.

Nov 10 18:27:24 <Dan> Having met Larry at a con, I believe that he has as much fun with the list, chats, & cons as we do.

Nov 10 18:31:39 <George_C> Yeah, I agree. Business aspects aside, fan activity is one of the percs of his job!

Nov 10 18:31:39 <jim_stiles> One of the URLs that Ed posted mentioned that he had earned an MBA. Does anyone know of any SF novels that involve economics of things like space travel?

Nov 10 18:32:28 <Lensman> I can't say that I know Larry well enough to have any insight on why he appears to be so fan-friendly. But I note he's a long-time member of fandom; his involvement in fandom predates his becoming a pro writer. So my *guess* is that he still wants to be a part of the fan community.

Nov 10 18:33:33 <Lensman> Piper's /Space Viking/ involves the economics of space travel. So does Asimov's /Prelude to Foundation/.

Nov 10 18:34:43 <Lensman> Perhaps C.J. Cherry's /Downbelow Station/, altho in a manner I found quite unbelievable and rather annoying. Oh, and Blish's /Cities in Flight/ is very concerned with galactic economics.

Nov 10 18:36:26 <Lensman> - /The Gripping Hand/ also touches on the Empire's economic difficulties.

Nov 10 18:37:20 <Dan> Cordwainer Smith's "Norastrilla" has some good sections on economics, as well.

Nov 10 18:37:52 <Dan> I might have typo-ed that title, though.

Nov 10 18:39:48 <Lensman> Some of Poul Anderson's "Nicholas van Rijn" stories might concern economics. I'm not sure I've even read /Trader to the Stars/.

Nov 10 18:40:08 <Lensman> - /Norstrilia/ IIRC.

Nov 10 18:40:34 <Dan> I couldn't remember. Thanks, Lens.

Nov 10 18:41:17 <Lensman> Cordwainer Smith isn't to my taste. I couldn't get into /Norstrilia/ altho I did finish /The Instrumentality of Man/.

Nov 10 18:42:40 <Dan> Like anyone else's work, some I like and some didn't do anything for me.

Nov 10 18:42:43 <Lensman> The only "Smiths" I currently have in my library are George O, George H, L. Neil... and of course "Doc".

Nov 10 18:44:24 <Lensman> "Norstrilia" is a contraction of "North Australia" if it helps. Which it doesn't, really... shouldn't it be "Norstralia" ?

Nov 10 18:45:03 <Dan> I think he took it from a phonetic spelling of someone's accent.

Nov 10 18:45:23 <Lensman> -k-

Nov 10 18:45:36 <Dan> As I recall, he greatly enjoyed the *sounds* of words.

Nov 10 18:46:29 <jim_stiles> He had a non-fiction story in Analog that was written entirely in Ander Saxon.

Nov 10 18:46:53 <Dan> Some of his poetry reads as if the sound was more important than the words used.

Nov 10 18:49:19 <George_C> Dinner's ready, so I'm off. I'll try to get back on in about two hours.

Nov 10 18:49:29 <Lensman> Bye George.

Nov 10 18:49:37 <jim_stiles> Bye George

Nov 10 18:49:41 <George_C> This has been great. If I don't get back, see you on the List!

Nov 10 18:49:45 <George_C> bye

Nov 10 18:49:48 * George_C has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Nov 10 18:58:03 <jim_stiles> Where are the logs of the chats stored?

Nov 10 18:58:33 <Lensman> One minute, Jim...

Nov 10 18:59:14 <Lensman>

Nov 10 18:59:19 <Lensman> Not all of them there, tho.

Nov 10 19:05:30 <jim_stiles> I wonder if JOW will cover the love affair between Nike and Nessus?

Nov 10 19:05:54 <Dan> Quite possibly.

Nov 10 19:08:13 <jim_stiles> Am I correct in my reading of FOW that Nessus understands Humans better than other Puppeteers?

Nov 10 19:09:13 <Lensman> I think that's a pretty safe statement. He's apparently spent more time around them than any other Puppeteer, at least in his lifetime.

Nov 10 19:09:30 <Dan> That's one we didn't ask, in so many words.

Nov 10 19:10:13 <Lensman> And clearly he *likes* Humans, or he whouldn't side with them even against the Concordance.

Nov 10 19:12:57 * growler (~growler@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 10 19:13:15 * growler has quit ()

Nov 10 19:13:48 <jim_stiles> Just an observation: it seems like these chats (even with Larry and Ed participating) run much slower than other chats that I have been in.

Nov 10 19:13:57 <jim_stiles> Is it because we are older?

Nov 10 19:14:35 <jim_stiles> While I am not as young as I used to be, some on the list are even older.

Nov 10 19:14:57 <Dan> It might be that some of us are also doing other things at the same time.

Nov 10 19:16:08 <Dan> Currently I have the broken collarbone/arm in a sling to blame my slowness upon.

Nov 10 19:16:29 <jim_stiles> OT: I have noticed that the TV show Eureka is softer SF-wise than Star Wars. I didn't think it was possible.

Nov 10 19:17:11 <Dan> Well, that one is heavy on the fiction, if light on the science.

Nov 10 19:18:00 <Dan> But yeah, you have to consider it a Fantasy series.

Nov 10 19:23:12 <Dan> brb, my daughter is singing for us.

Nov 10 19:23:27 <Lensman> We didn't have very many people in the chat today. The more there are, the faster a chat goes.

Nov 10 19:23:47 <Lensman> At least, that's been my experience.

Nov 10 19:27:16 <Dan> OK, back.

Nov 10 19:29:28 <jim_stiles> Another OT: From R.L. Forward's autobiography "There was also a major thing that my mother did for me and my brother besides dedicating her life to bringing us up right. She paid our way through college. She did it through her writing. She entered a contest run by a manufacturer of boys' shirts, where you had to write the last line of a jingle that ended: "It has more value in it 2026" and she added "than first meets the eye." Five words

Nov 10 19:31:39 <Lensman> She probably got a pretty high word rate for that... :)

Nov 10 20:06:48 * jim_stiles has quit ()

Nov 10 20:07:01 * jim_stiles (~jim_stiles@ has joined #knownspace

Nov 10 20:07:46 <jim_stiles> I'm back

Nov 10 20:09:29 <Dan> WB

Nov 10 20:33:25 <jim_stiles> I was able to download a copy of Space Viking from Project Gutenburg

Nov 10 20:33:40 <Dan> Good!

Nov 10 20:33:51 <Dan> That's one of the best.

Nov 10 20:34:08 <jim_stiles> rather Gutenberg

Nov 10 20:37:26 <Dan> Tons of historical references in that novel. I'm sure that I've never spotted more than a third of them, if that many.

Nov 10 20:39:50 <Dan> Personally, I'm rather fonder of "Four Day Planet" and "Cosmic Computer" novellas, myself. But Space Viking is a really good story, in any case.

Nov 10 20:39:59 <jim_stiles> Pet Peeve: The term Viking should never be used as a noun. The people we known as Danes; what the Danes did was Viking.

Nov 10 20:42:05 <Dan> That's one peeve that you'll be frustrated by for a long time, Jim. You'd be fighting "recieved wisdom" there. More or less futile to try and get folks to change just because they're wrong.

Nov 10 20:52:30 <jim_stiles> Yup

Nov 10 20:53:04 <Dan> When did that region split into different countries?

Nov 10 21:00:42 <jim_stiles> About AD 1000, but there were times since then that two or more kingdoms were ruled by a single monarch

Nov 10 21:04:46 <Lensman> - /The Cosmic Computer/ also has much to do with interstellar economics.

Nov 10 21:05:30 <Dan> How to set up a shipping empire, etc.

Nov 10 21:05:59 <Lensman> From various discussions on the Piper list, it does seem that SV has more food for discussion of the subject.

Nov 10 21:06:12 <jim_stiles> SV = ?

Nov 10 21:06:22 <Lensman> - /Space Viking/

Nov 10 21:06:26 <jim_stiles> OK

Nov 10 21:08:38 <Lensman> SV is similar to KS in having long hyperspace travel times, so bulk goods are not normally worth transporting. Some exceptions are noted in the novel, tho.

Nov 10 21:12:55 <Lensman> IIRC in one of Asimov's Empire/Foundation novels, it's said that Trantor (the Imperial capital) is fed by bulk food shipments arriving via starship every day. In /Prelude to Foundation/ Asimov retconned that away, noting it was economically much more feasible to feed the populace via what he called "microculture", or what older SF stories would call vat-grown food. I just started reading /Saturn's Race/, there's "textured algae" in that, which is the

Nov 10 21:19:17 <jim_stiles> bulk shipments of luxury foodstuffs to Trantor are not inconsistant with extensive Trantorian microculture

Nov 10 21:19:40 <jim_stiles> pee break

Nov 10 21:22:08 <Lensman> Luxury foods, yes. That's touched on in SV. But not bulk shipments of grain.

Nov 10 21:26:21 <Lensman> And clearly it depends on what type of space drive you're using. If its an instant-jump drive, such as in "One Face", then bulk shipments may be economical.

Nov 10 21:28:01 <jim_stiles> I believe that the Benford, Brin, and Bear Foundation Novels mention wormhole linkages in the galaxy that were abandoned as the empire fell

Nov 10 21:33:06 <Lensman> ? Are you saying those 3 authors wrote stories set in Asimov's Foundation universe?

Nov 10 21:35:08 <Lensman> I suppose artificial wormhole linkages would be the same thing as stargates.

Nov 10 21:37:39 <jim_stiles>

Nov 10 21:39:31 <jim_stiles> The artifical wormhole linkages were created by an earlier race of sentients that had died out, so it was similar to the stargates in Stargate SG-1, except that the wormhole linkages were in space.

Nov 10 21:40:27 <Lensman> Like the stargates or jump gates or whatever they called them in "Babylon 5".

Nov 10 21:41:47 <Lensman> That is, they worked like the B5 gates, but unlike the B5 gates were a product of Forerunner technology.

Nov 10 21:42:49 <Lensman> That would certainly be a change to the Empire/Foundation universe, where there are *no* aliens at all.

Nov 10 21:43:13 <Lensman> That is, no *sentient* aliens. Just animals & plants.

Nov 10 21:45:53 <Lensman> Frankly, I thought /Prelude to Foundation/ was almost completely devoid of anything of interest, and that ended my buying or reading new Foundation stories. However, /Foundation's Edge/ is one of my favorite Asimov novels, and I liked it much better than the other Foundation stories, which are completely lacking in any human emotion and almost completely devoid of action or suspense.

Nov 10 21:49:30 <jim_stiles> Have you read /Foundation and Earth/? It is a direct sequel to /Foundation's Edge/.

Nov 10 21:51:37 <Lensman> Yes, and I thought it was nearly as devoid of anything worth reading as /Prelude to Foundation/.

Nov 10 21:53:14 <jim_stiles> Broadly construed (that is containing authorized works by different authors), the Robots/Empire/Foundation universe did contain aliens. These aliens were destroyed by robots from Aurora in advance of humans immigration.

Nov 10 21:54:52 <Lensman> I guess that depends on whether or not you consider postumous additions by other authors as canon. I don't.

Nov 10 21:59:46 <Lensman> Sometimes non-canonical stories can be quite enjoyable. I thoroughly enjoyed the collection /The Exploits of Sherlock Holmes/. But I consider those to be fictional stories set within the world of Holmes, not actual "true" tales about Sherlock Holmes. I suppose my ideas on canonical "reality" has been greatly affected by reading /The Annotated Sherlock Holmes/.

Nov 10 22:00:23 <jim_stiles> What do you think of Ben Bova's Grand Tour Series?

Nov 10 22:07:42 <Lensman> IIRC I've only read one Bova novel, and didn't much care for it. A distinct lack of ending, which a friend of mine said was typical of his work. Was that /As On a Darkling Plain/? Not sure.

Nov 10 22:11:09 <jim_stiles> What does the abbreviation IIRC stand for?

Nov 10 22:11:56 <Lensman> If I Recall Correctly.

Nov 10 22:12:47 <Lensman> Per Wikipedia /As on a Darkling Plain/ is a Bova title, so that must be right. I remember very little of the novel, which is typical of something I didn't much care for.

Nov 10 22:13:24 <Lensman> But that doesn't mean there aren't other Bova titles I would enjoy. Maybe I just picked a bad one to start with?

Nov 10 22:16:51 <Dan> I'm fond of "The Dueling Machine", but it reads like a juvenile title, now that I'm in the geezer generation.

Nov 10 22:18:47 <jim_stiles> If you were to give Bova another chance, I would suggest either /Mars/ or /Jupiter/.

Nov 10 22:19:52 <Lensman> So what is the premise of the "Grand Tour" series?

Nov 10 22:26:49 <SeanS> greetings. how did the FOW chat go?

Nov 10 22:27:14 <SeanS> no spoilers please.... i havent ready yet

Nov 10 22:27:27 <SeanS> read it yet that should be

Nov 10 22:30:05 <Lensman> It was a bit slow, as there weren't many here, but both Larry and Ed showed up, so participants were quite pleased with the chance to chat with both authors!

Nov 10 22:30:36 <SeanS> cool... i have it logged but wont read it until i read the book itself

Nov 10 22:31:08 <Lensman> Oh, so we shouldn't tell you that the Tnucipun turn out to be Kzinti, and the core explosion is a hoax? Oh, wait... wrong story!

Nov 10 22:31:09 <jim_stiles> The "Grand Tour" series documents man's exploration of the solar system. Global climate change has disrupted the traditional political and economic order, which lead to the formation of powerful political groups (i.e. the New Morality) that enforce traditional Christian ethos.

Nov 10 22:31:29 <SeanS> both were in? i know ed comes in regularly. Larry showed up?

Nov 10 22:32:58 <Lensman> Yes.

Nov 10 22:33:01 <jim_stiles> The "Grand Tour" series also place significant emphasis on the role of private enterprise in the exploration, exploitation, and colonization of space.

Nov 10 22:33:35 <SeanS> cool... maybe he will make more regular apearences now that the java client makes it really easy

Nov 10 22:34:22 <Lensman> I asked Ed last week to invite Larry personally. Maybe that's why he showed up, I don't know.

Nov 10 22:34:30 <jim_stiles> Good Summary of the "Grand Tour" series:

Nov 10 22:35:04 <SeanS> i dont know either. whlle i have talked with larry, i wouldnt remotely call it regular communications

Nov 10 22:37:31 <Lensman> Hey Sean, would you please please put more of the chats up at the chat archive? I don't always get the chance to participate, and it's very nice to be able to read an archive!

Nov 10 22:38:04 <SeanS> i forward every log i have to mark firestone. tis up to him after that point

Nov 10 22:38:40 <Lensman> Oho! Well I know where he lives! the virtual sense. :)

Nov 10 22:39:13 <SeanS> since i am in all the time on a linux client that never times out, i have everything

Nov 10 22:39:36 <SeanS> unless i redo the pc and miss something

Nov 10 22:40:36 <SeanS> you should notice that since i have been running the chat server, logs have shown up much more often

Nov 10 22:41:46 <Lensman> I'm not one of the old-timers on the list. Not sure how long I've been participating, I think over a year now.

Nov 10 22:42:39 <SeanS> if you look at the list of logs on, they are posted much more fequently than before

Nov 10 22:43:21 <Lensman> Thanks for all your work, Sean!

Nov 10 22:43:26 <SeanS> but since it is all done for free and fun, its take it as you get it

Nov 10 22:44:24 <SeanS> if mark doesnt have the time to post a log... just wait

Nov 10 22:45:41 <Lensman> Thus the eternal debate: FIAWOL vs FAJAGDH (Fandom Is A Way Of Life vs. Fandom Is Just A G--D--- Hobby).

Nov 10 22:46:04 <SeanS> it is a collaborative effort

Nov 10 22:46:57 <SeanS> jon, carol, and ted run the list. Mark is the webmaster, and i run the IRC. we are worlds apart... literally

Nov 10 22:47:53 <Lensman> Personally I'm into the FIAWOL philosophy, in fact on my local SF club FIAWOL! is my sig line. But I do realize that sometimes Real Life intrudes, and that ultimately it *is* just a hobby. Unlesss, of course, you're a pro or a dealer... :)

Nov 10 22:48:27 <SeanS> the list, webserver, and IRC are only together because we are friends with a common interest

Nov 10 22:50:20 <Lensman> Mark has arranged for my IKSC to be hosted at <>. Not sure how that works-- is it something that comes with the domain, or does someone (other than me!) have to pay extra for that?

Nov 10 22:50:26 <SeanS> and this IRC server wouldnt even be in existance without a phone call from Frank Gasperik

Nov 10 22:50:59 <SeanS> just a DNS change to point to a port on the IP

Nov 10 22:51:37 <Dan> Sort of like al the extra bits & bobs over at Aphelion.

Nov 10 22:51:50 <Lensman> Sean is Speaking in Tongues.

Nov 10 22:52:11 <SeanS> points to one IP address. points to a port at my IP address

Nov 10 22:52:24 <Lensman> It's nice to know the way Frank has affected our lives continues on.

Nov 10 22:52:39 <SeanS> you have no idea, david

Nov 10 22:52:43 <Dan> I understood him, but I've been playing Internet for a long time now.

Nov 10 22:53:27 <SeanS> lensman, Frank Gasperik and his wife Peggy were two of my best friends

Nov 10 22:54:32 <SeanS> never met them in person unfotunately

Nov 10 22:58:16 <Lensman> I participate in the Dawn Patrol chat group; the guy who runs that is in Wichita, KS. We have weekly chats, and I felt that I was good friends with several there who I'd never met. One night a bunch of us local fen gathered at the local IMAX theatre... I think it was for "Fantasia 2000". I heard someone call "Lensman!", which was rather odd as I'n not called that in my local group. I wandered over to discover that several of the Dawn Patrollers wer

Nov 10 23:00:16 <SeanS> i have been in the dawn patrol chats

Nov 10 23:00:28 <SeanS> if it is the same one

Nov 10 23:01:30 <Lensman> They are now a pale shadow of their former selves; we used to have 20+ there regularly, and the chat would go from 8 to about 10:30. Now usually only a few show up, and most leave at 9 pm. :( I admit I don't participate as often as I used to, either.

Nov 10 23:02:57 <Lensman> I wish the Niven chats were more frequent, but frankly I prefer the slower pace of conversation. I can't keep up when there are 20 people talking!

Nov 10 23:03:02 <SeanS> i was there by Frank's request... dont know if it is the same

Nov 10 23:03:20 <Lensman> I rather imagine it is. Pinky's Place?

Nov 10 23:03:46 <SeanS> the server operates 24/7 i dont just bring it up for 'official' chats

Nov 10 23:03:46 <Lensman> Combo pilots' and fandom group? Can't be very many of those!

Nov 10 23:04:13 <SeanS> its been awhile. i dont recall

Nov 10 23:04:39 <Lensman> Sean: Yes, I know it's always here, that's why I invited people in for a FOW chat today. But the "official announcement" goes out only once a month.

Nov 10 23:05:26 <SeanS> do you want to take charge of making the 'official' announcement? i forgot this month

Nov 10 23:06:36 <Lensman> If you like, sure. I'll set up a monthly reminder at the "Memo to Me" site, which is what I did to remind myself of the date of the FOW chat.

Nov 10 23:06:59 <Dan> Once I go back to work I won;t be able to pop in as often as I have this last 6 weeks.

Nov 10 23:07:18 <SeanS> have at it, david

Nov 10 23:07:35 <Lensman> Terrible how Real Life interferes with fanac. :(

Nov 10 23:08:22 <Dan> Aweful that I have to go on medical leave in order to *have* a real life, :)

Nov 10 23:08:39 <SeanS> i like real life. lets me drink with friends and hang with my gf

Nov 10 23:09:35 <Dan> I was able to read some of a book today, for the first time since the cae wreck.

Nov 10 23:09:51 <SeanS> need to kill a large woodland creature tomorrow for that matter

Nov 10 23:10:07 <Dan> Now if I can just manage to work on some stories for my zine.

Nov 10 23:10:07 <Lensman> Eye trouble? Concentration trouble? Both?

Nov 10 23:11:20 <Lensman> "Large woodland creature"? Deer season opening, or did a reference whizz over my head?

Nov 10 23:11:29 <Dan> Concussion. Messed up my vision and concentration for reading. That and the broken collarbone have made this the worst time I've ever had off from work.

Nov 10 23:11:52 <SeanS> deer season has been open here since september the first. just running low

Nov 10 23:11:56 <Lensman> Bummer, Dan.

Nov 10 23:12:20 * SeanS is a member of PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals

Nov 10 23:12:41 <Dan> Really. 4000+ books in the house and I couldn't read. LOL!

Nov 10 23:12:45 <Lensman> Mmmm, yes, I'm a member of *that* PETA also. :)

Nov 10 23:13:43 <Lensman> Altho I confess I've never hunted anything but jackrabbits... and tin cans.

Nov 10 23:14:17 <SeanS> i hunt everything

Nov 10 23:14:58 <Lensman> What a straight line...

Nov 10 23:15:59 <SeanS> if you wish to make a joke... go ahead

Nov 10 23:17:49 <Lensman> Chmeee would likely rebuke me: "How much intelligence does it take to sneak up on a tin can?"

Nov 10 23:20:43 <SeanS> i dont hunt tin cans. but name your tasty animal

Nov 10 23:20:59 <Lensman> So, Sean, what do you use for hunting large woodland creatures? A shotgun with buckshot, or what?

Nov 10 23:21:16 <Dan> Chevy truck.

Nov 10 23:21:19 <Dan> :)

Nov 10 23:21:20 <SeanS> thats illegal in kentucky.

Nov 10 23:21:27 <SeanS> buckshot that is

Nov 10 23:21:53 <SeanS> i use a crossbow, blackbowder .50 rifle, and a .270

Nov 10 23:22:36 <Lensman> Well, anyone who hunts for food with a bow & arrow or crossbow certainly has *my* respect!

Nov 10 23:23:02 <SeanS> the two rifles dont but the crossbow does?

Nov 10 23:23:14 <Lensman> I've shot a black powder rifle, but only at targets. I'm not a bad shot at a still target, but those pesky rabbits move around...

Nov 10 23:24:12 <Dan> Rabbits are easier to trap than to shoot, I've found.

Nov 10 23:24:35 <SeanS> i want to see lensman statement on my question

Nov 10 23:24:48 <Lensman> I don't know what you mean by a .270. Is that another black powder rifle? Well certainly it's a challenge hunting with anything that takes a minute or so to reload.

Nov 10 23:25:11 <SeanS> the .270 is a modern gun

Nov 10 23:25:39 <Lensman> I certainly didn't mean to start an argument, Sean. My apologies if I offended you.

Nov 10 23:25:54 <SeanS> you didnt.. i am just waiting on an answer

Nov 10 23:27:12 <Lensman> Let's just say I don't have much respect for those who go deer hunting with assault rifles, particularly if there's beer involved.

Nov 10 23:27:44 <SeanS> and what do you consider assault rifles?

Nov 10 23:28:36 <jim_stiles> How often are assault rifles used against deer? Assault rifles are designed to be used against people.

Nov 10 23:28:42 <Lensman> If there's something involved which makes it a *challenge*, such as a weapon with long reload times or with limited force (bow & arrow, crossbow), then the hunter has my respect.

Nov 10 23:29:11 <SeanS> well, for a good hunter, divid, one shot is all thats needed

Nov 10 23:29:29 <SeanS> so your argument is totally irrelivent

Nov 10 23:29:36 <Lensman> Is the term "assault rifle" ambiguous? I'm not a gun expert, but I thought the meaning was clear. Something like one of the AK-47 imitators?

Nov 10 23:29:57 <SeanS> my .270 holds 4 rounds and is bolt action

Nov 10 23:30:47 <SeanS> an assault rifle is a 20+ round capacity rifle that can fire full auto

Nov 10 23:31:29 <SeanS> my black powder holds one round and takes ME about 2 minutes to reload

Nov 10 23:31:53 <SeanS> i can reload the crossbow faster than that

Nov 10 23:34:17 <Dan> Oh, I got a beautiful powder horn for my black powder rifle & pistol off of e-bay last week.

Nov 10 23:35:48 <SeanS> your original comment implied that you put the crossbow in the same category as the bow and arrow. I was trying to figure out why

Nov 10 23:35:50 <Dan> Mostly black, but with white, cream, and about 3 shades of gray highlights.

Nov 10 23:36:42 <SeanS> I will see that, dan... i just use the standard stuff here for black powder... i use pyrodex but it is the same thing... just burns cleaner

Nov 10 23:38:28 <Lensman> Because (a) both the crossbow and the bow-and-arrow ultimately depend on muscle power, not chemical explosives; and because both of them have to have individual "missiles" loaded.

Nov 10 23:39:03 <SeanS> obviously, you have never hunted

Nov 10 23:39:27 <Dan> Well, I'll still have to buy powder to fill it, but the horn is ready to use.

Nov 10 23:39:48 <Lensman> Same with your bolt-action rifle. I've used a semi-auto rifle to hunt rabbits, but it seemed rather un-sporting. The prey should have *some* chance to escape.

Nov 10 23:40:17 <SeanS> wait on

Nov 10 23:40:19 <SeanS> e

Nov 10 23:43:14 <SeanS> back

Nov 10 23:43:34 <SeanS> get pyrodex

Nov 10 23:43:48 <Dan> I will.

Nov 10 23:43:49 <SeanS> the crossbow is silent death

Nov 10 23:44:23 <SeanS> anybody that hunts rabit with a rifle is an idiot unless he is sniping them from a distance

Nov 10 23:44:48 <Lensman> What type of crossbow do you use? Is it cocked with a foot stirrup, or do you have to use a goat's foot or windlass?

Nov 10 23:45:09 <SeanS> the prey should have NO chance... otherwise you are just wounding the animal

Nov 10 23:45:32 <SeanS> foot stirrup...cocked in about 3 seconds

Nov 10 23:46:21 <SeanS> if i pop something, i want it to fall over right there if at all possible

Nov 10 23:46:23 <Lensman> I'm surprised you can get enough power to kill a deer with that.

Nov 10 23:46:47 <SeanS> 150 lb draw weight

Nov 10 23:47:16 <SeanS> i think... not mine, i just use it around the house so as not to endanger the neighbors much

Nov 10 23:48:01 <Lensman> That's a pretty stiff pull for a foot stirrup! Are you using a belt hook to help cock it, or just pulling on it with finger pressure?

Nov 10 23:48:23 <SeanS> it will stick the head deep in a tree at 300 yards... what more do you need

Nov 10 23:48:43 <SeanS> 300 feet... sorry

Nov 10 23:49:09 <SeanS> finger pressure

Nov 10 23:49:17 <SeanS> step on it and pull

Nov 10 23:49:55 <Lensman> Well, as I said, I've never done any serious hunting. I'm surprised that you can kill a deer with a hand-cocked X-bow, that's all.

Nov 10 23:50:51 <SeanS> well, i am not letting you change the drift of the convo that much... why do you think that one tool should be used over another

Nov 10 23:51:09 <SeanS> which was the original question

Nov 10 23:51:50 <Lensman> I don't understand why buckshot is illegal in your state. Is it considered too dangerous to other hunters?

Nov 10 23:52:13 <SeanS> because that is the rule of the state... still not answering?

Nov 10 23:52:46 <jim_stiles> gotta go, see ya later

Nov 10 23:52:54 <SeanS> later jim

Nov 10 23:52:57 <Lensman> I guess I'll call it a night also.

Nov 10 23:53:01 * jim_stiles has quit ()

Nov 10 23:53:02 * Lensman has quit ()

Nov 10 23:53:12 <SeanS> oh well

Nov 10 23:53:14 <Dan> Bedtime for me, folks. Gotta get up early tomorrow to see my oldest girl off to the airport.

Nov 10 23:53:34 <SeanS> night dan

Nov 10 23:53:41 <Dan> Night, Sean!

Nov 10 23:53:53 * Dan has quit ()

Nov 11 03:36:22 * Ness_logging (~nesssus@88.111.139.XX) has left #knownspace

Return to Part 1