Chat Log: Feburary 6th, 2010

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[11:27] #knownspace> Lensman: How cool are the Kzinti? Well with those fur coats, I'd think pretty warm actually!
[11:27] #knownspace> Lensman: The Outsiders, now-- *they* are pretty cool!
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[11:37] #knownspace> AlexA: .time est
[11:37] #knownspace> AlexA: .g phenny
[11:37] #knownspace> Outsider: AlexA: http://inamidst.com/phenny/
[11:38] #knownspace> AlexA: .t est
[11:38] #knownspace> Outsider: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 11:38:20 EST
[11:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi AlexA
[11:39] #knownspace> AlexA: Good morning
[11:40] #knownspace> AlexA: I guess it's still a bit early
[11:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, "official" chat time is not until noon Pacific time.
[11:41] #knownspace> AlexA: I forget where you are exacly Lensman - have you got the snow?
[11:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Yup. I'm in Kansas City, KS
[11:41] #knownspace> AlexA: .t pst
[11:41] #knownspace> Outsider: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 08:41:31 PST
[11:41] #knownspace> Lensman: But then I gather *most* of the nation is covered in snow today.
[11:42] #knownspace> AlexA: Twitter is alive with snow reports
[11:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Not just us, not just the Eastern seaboard.
[11:43] #knownspace> Lensman: I think we got about 2-1/2 inches.
[11:43] #knownspace> AlexA: Amusing hashtag: #snOMG
[11:43] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL
[11:44] #knownspace> AlexA: Indeed
[11:44] #knownspace> AlexA: Rumour has it we may get another wave of snow in the UK in the next week
[11:45] #knownspace> AlexA: But nothing like what you get there
[11:45] #knownspace> AlexA: It's pretty mild here:
[11:45] #knownspace> AlexA: .weather egdm
[11:45] #knownspace> Outsider: Cloudy, 6℃, 1018mb, Gentle breeze 10kt (↑) - EGDM 15:50, 1550Z
[11:46] #knownspace> AlexA: ^airfield < a mile from me
[11:47] #knownspace> AlexA: .g ICAO Kansas city
[11:47] #knownspace> Outsider: AlexA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_by_ICAO_code
[11:47] #knownspace> Lensman: I had some friends who visited England a few years back. The locals kept apologizing for it being so "hot". It actually got up to about 80 F (26-27 C). Well, I guess if you're wearing multiple layers of woolens that's hot!
[11:48] #knownspace> Lensman: But here, 80 F would be a very mild late spring or summer day.
[11:52] #knownspace> AlexA: Being an island + Gulf stream means our climate doesn't have extremes either way
[11:54] #knownspace> AlexA: When it does get hot most don't have aircon at home so can get uncomfortable.
[11:55] #knownspace> AlexA: Also aircon in cars wasn't common until recently
[11:56] #knownspace> AlexA: I think I'll drop out & return later
[11:56] #knownspace> AlexA: Brb
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[12:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Sean!
[12:30] #knownspace> sean: hey
[12:36] #knownspace> sean: .weather 40601
[12:36] #knownspace> Outsider: Overcast ☁, 30.2℉ (-1℃), 29.85in (1007mb), Gentle breeze 9kt (↑) - KLOU 11:53, 1653Z
[12:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Whenever people talk about the weather, I think of one of the patter songs from /Pirates of Penzance/.
[12:40] #knownspace> Lensman: How beautifully blue the sky, / The glass is rising very high, /
[12:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Continue fine I hope it may, / And yet it rained but yesterday. /
[12:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Tomorrow it may pour again / (I hear the country wants some rain), / Yet people say, I know not why, / That we shall have a warm July. / Tomorrow it may pour again / (I hear the country wants some rain), / Yet people say, I know not why, / That we shall have a warm July. / Tomorrow it may pour again....
[12:40] #knownspace> nedry: Let us compromise, Our hearts are not of leather, let us shut your eyes and talk abotu the weather...
[12:41] #knownspace> Lensman: And also "People talk a lot about the weather, but no one *does* anything about it!" ;)
[12:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah! I see nedry is another G&S fan.
[12:41] #knownspace> nedry: yeah...
[12:43] #knownspace> nedry: much to my wife's horror.
[12:43] #knownspace> nedry: she thinks it's far too middle class...
[12:44] #knownspace> Lensman: 8-0 Philistine!
[12:44] #knownspace> nedry: she's an inverted snob
[12:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I feel for you; I have failed to get my gf interested in G&S, either.
[12:47] #knownspace> nedry: heh
[12:47] #knownspace> nedry: there's much more class war left in the UK
[12:47] #knownspace> Lensman: So I gather, as an observer at a distance.
[12:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Hey Mark, what do you consider the highest current priority for us contributors to LarryNiven.org? Should I be looking at the secondary Kzinti pages for revisions, or working on the Short Story Collections page, or what?
[12:49] #knownspace> nedry: i think the short story collections would be a good thing to finish.
[12:49] #knownspace> nedry: i've gotten distracted redoing the doonofmay stuff for a week or so
[12:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Also, you never answered my question about standardized larger cover size. Should I just go ahead and pick a size? And how would I upload images to the site?
[12:50] #knownspace> nedry: damn hippies! (; https://www.doonofmay.org.uk
[12:50] #knownspace> nedry: sorry no s http://www.doonofmay.org.uk
[12:50] #knownspace> nedry: how big do you want? something like the size of that demo I did?
[12:50] #knownspace> Lensman: "Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at www.doonofmay.org.uk."
[12:50] #knownspace> nedry: http://www.larryniven.org/test.shtml
[12:51] #knownspace> nedry: try it without the https bit...
[12:51] #knownspace> nedry: i'm really proud of the logo I did for that site. I'm not good at logos
[12:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh I see it's the "s" in "https"
[12:53] #knownspace> nedry: i don't know why i typed that s
[12:54] #knownspace> Lensman: Logo? Sorry I don't know what you mean. Logo for Doon of May?
[12:54] #knownspace> nedry: yeah. the image at the top.
[12:54] #knownspace> nedry: i am not artistic at all. i have the artisic ability of a clam
[12:55] #knownspace> Lensman: The main title is pretty good, yeah. The subtitle is hard to read, tho. If it was me, I'd use a non-display font with a more contrasting color.
[12:56] #knownspace> nedry: It is hard to read.
[12:56] #knownspace> nedry: it's a layered image so I can add and remove bits at will.
[12:56] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah. Well yes, there's that.
[12:57] #knownspace> nedry: i didn't want the "celtic" curley things down the sides either.
[12:57] #knownspace> nedry: one of the last space shuttle launches tomorow at 4:39am Eastern.
[12:57] #knownspace> nedry: I wonder what that is my time?
[12:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Celtic knotwork down the sides would be appropriate. The garish colors there are not.
[12:59] #knownspace> nedry: I might try to find some. on the one had, i'm the offical volunteer computer guy for this, on the other hand I'm not getting paid, on the gripping hand, i'm going to use it as an example site for my web design business that never goes anyplace because all my customers are deadbeats
[12:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Add five hours for Greenwich time.
[13:00] #knownspace> Lensman: If you're gonna use it as your example site, you definitely need to pretty it up as much as possible.
[13:01] #knownspace> nedry: not really a good situation... the whole crew launching that thing must now be waiting for their pink slips
[13:01] #knownspace> Lensman: It irks me that the trend in web design seems to be more about appearance than substance, but I guess that's what sells.
[13:01] #knownspace> nedry: i prefer as simple as possible...
[13:02] #knownspace> nedry: sites are supposed to be about information
[13:02] #knownspace> Lensman: My aim in web design is "elegant simplicity".
[13:02] #knownspace> nedry: aye
[13:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Exactly!
[13:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Substance, not flash and glitter... or Flash, either!
[13:02] #knownspace> nedry: i have to run to the store to get some burrito makings. will be back hopefully later
[13:02] #knownspace> nedry: i can't do flash...
[13:02] #knownspace> nedry: i'd have to pay someone
[13:02] #knownspace> sean: hope i don' knock a cable loose from the server putting the printer back in there.
[13:03] #knownspace> sean: if i do i wiil bring the box back online as fast as i can
[13:03] #knownspace> nedry: i need a working printer. i want to apply for the weekned job at the bowling alley. just call me homer simpson
[13:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Here's the prettiest site I've done:
[13:03] #knownspace> Lensman: http://www.vkff.org
[13:04] #knownspace> nedry: nice
[13:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanx
[13:04] #knownspace> nedry: you could use that tableless layout i sent you for that one as well . (;
[13:04] #knownspace> nedry: be back soon
[13:04] #knownspace> Lensman: I should look at that, because setting that up as tables seemed overly complex.
[13:06] #knownspace> sean: test
[13:06] #knownspace> sean: woohoo
[13:07] #knownspace> nedry: tables suck for layout. so does css, but tables suck more
[13:08] #knownspace> sean: bye
[13:09] #knownspace> Lensman: I would be very happy to get rid of tables at my Known Space Timeline page. The table structure has gotten so complex that I always fail the first time when adding entries. I always mess up the format and have to go back and see where I've made an error.
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[13:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Chris!
[13:19] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Hey! Hows life treating you?
[13:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, can't complain. (Wouldn't do any good!)
[13:20] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I like that outlook!
[13:21] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Did you hear how the pres. cut nasa's budget?
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[13:25] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh yeah, that's been a hot topic of discussion on the Niven list. But congress will likely add some of the cut budget back in. NASA has unfortunately become corporate welfare in too many congressional districts.
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[13:42] #knownspace> CCulpepepr: Now I hope that I am back...
[13:44] #knownspace> SeanS: good luck
[13:45] #knownspace> CCulpepepr: Thanks
[13:45] #knownspace> SeanS: larry forgot what day it was yesterday. stayed for a few minutes then said he hoped to be back today
[13:45] #knownspace> SeanS: oops.
[13:45] #knownspace> CCulpepepr: Great!
[13:46] #knownspace> SeanS: yesterday, logged in
[13:46] #knownspace> SeanS: said he was phone proofing betrayer of worlds eith ed
[13:47] #knownspace> CCulpepepr: This whole week i didnt know what day it was. But thats what i get for texting all night.
[14:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, thanks for the heads-up re Larry, Sean.
[14:09] #knownspace> Lensman: Glad to learn that Larry has, apparently, found permanent fix for his problem accessing this chat.
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[14:14] #knownspace> CCulpepper: This computer should work...
[14:18] #knownspace> Lensman: <Lensman duct tapes CCulpepper to channel>

[14:18] #knownspace> Lensman: About 42 minutes to "official" chat time...
[14:27] #knownspace> SeanS: weak duct tape
[14:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Tsk yes, duct tape failure!
[14:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Hey Sean, what is the irc command to display a message?
[14:32] #knownspace> SeanS: ?
[14:32] #knownspace> Lensman: People in this chat usually do the "duct tape to channel" not as a chat post, but as a "message".
[14:33] #knownspace> SeanS: type /me before what you want to say
[14:33] #knownspace> Lensman: I guess so... I see your screen name and post in italics which isn't normal
[14:34] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanx Sean!
[14:34] #knownspace> SeanS: np
[14:35] #knownspace> Lensman: The one thing ChatZilla seems to be missing is a list of IRC commands.
[14:35] #knownspace> SeanS: there are a bunch of them
[14:36] #knownspace> Lensman: For some reason I can't remember the "message" command.
[14:36] #knownspace> SeanS: there are commands to play sounds on all the clients in the room
[14:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, I remember the "stupid sound effects tricks" in chats of long ago.
[14:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Not so much here, I don't think; I think that was more in the Dawn Patrol chat room.
[14:37] #knownspace> SeanS: you can send files but that doesnt usually work on this server
[14:38] #knownspace> SeanS: i should set up a linux proxy/router. that would allow all the dcc stuff to work
[14:39] #knownspace> SeanS: easier just to say 'email me that'
[14:39] #knownspace> Lensman: I want a .wav file of the blood-freezing roar/snarl that Speaker used to make all Louis' muscles lock up!
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[14:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Chris, sorry my duct tape failed. I guess I need some reinforced with shadow square wire, but that stuff is *so* hard to find in local hardware stores!
[14:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Or that GP hull glue..
[14:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm I think Tunesmith patented that!
[14:44] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Do protectors believe in patents though?
[14:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Nope.
[14:45] #knownspace> SeanS: pre-chat speakeasy speedtest results: Download Speed: 8082 kbps (1010.3 KB/sec transfer rate)
[14:45] #knownspace> SeanS: Upload Speed: 488 kbps (61 KB/sec transfer rate)
[14:45] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Then he couldnt patent it, and even if he did would the ARM supress it?
[14:46] #knownspace> SeanS: uptime
[14:46] #knownspace> SeanS: 14:46:00 up 69 days
[14:46] #knownspace> Lensman: The U.S. Patent Office has reacted to the increasing flood of trivial or useless patents by markedly raising the bar for something being "non-obvious". To a protector, the best solution is usually obvious; so it would be a rare thing for a protector to think anything *could* be patented!
[14:48] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But for those things that are not immediatly obious they might try, if it meant that other protectors couldnt use it.
[14:48] #knownspace> Lensman: And a patent assumes that one should respect others' rights... which implies others *have* rights. I don't think protectors recognize that *anyone* has "rights".
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[14:49] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Would two protectors of the same family line fight?
[14:49] #knownspace> AlexA: .t pst
[14:49] #knownspace> Outsider: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 11:49:49 PST
[14:49] #knownspace> Lensman: Would the ARM suppress "GP hull glue"? Good question. Would they see it as a dangerous technology?
[14:50] #knownspace> CCulpepper: It would allow for non-standard designs.
[14:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Two protectors who were made from breeders who were identical twins would fight, if they had a motive. I think the best way to explain it is "The more distantly protectors are related, the more likely they are to fight each other"
[14:52] #knownspace> CCulpepper: You could make a torpedo tipped with the "glue" with a hyper-drive motor for guts. Sounds pretty dangerous, espesially nead a sun...
[14:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Good point, non-standard designs. One unanswered question is: Since the GP hull requires a "motor" constantly running to reinforce the molecular bonds, how can a GP hull be cut in half and still have both halves stable?
[14:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Not sure you'd need glue. In "Grendel", Margo the pilot wouldn't take her ship into hyperspace because there was another ship too near.
[14:56] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I meant to make the ship go into hyperspace to send it elsewhere, like in a fight. And if you took it too close to a sun, bye bye ship!
[14:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Was Tunesmith able to build new molecular-strengthening motors to attach to the parts of the GP hull cut away?
[14:57] #knownspace> Lensman: I guess he must have been, I don't see how the "glue" could do that. You need a power source!
[14:58] #knownspace> Lensman: But my point is that you could just activate a hyperdrive shunt next to the ship to flip it into hyperspace, you don't need to glue it to the hull.
[14:58] #knownspace> CCulpepper: oh. I see now!
[14:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Have you read /Destroyer of Worlds/?
[14:59] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Not yet. I will hopefully spend b-day money on books.
[15:00] #knownspace> Lensman: In my "Hyperspace Theory & Practice" article, I speculate that what the hyperdrive shunt does is wrap a "bubble" of normal, Einsteinian space around the spacecraft, and thrust that into hyperspace. That's confirmed in DOW.
[15:01] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Is that released in paperback yet?
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[15:05] #knownspace> Lensman: Nope, just came out last November.
[15:06] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Okay. Are any of the "new" books in PB yet?
[15:06] #knownspace> dmac44: Hi guys, did I miss much from last month's chat?

[15:06] #knownspace> nedry: today, i have run out of free toilet paper. it is a sad day...
[15:07] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Free TP?
[15:08] #knownspace> nedry: yeah. they switched facilities management companies where I work, and the had new toilet paper holders
[15:08] #knownspace> nedry: that wouldn't hold the old, bit toilet roll, so they gave it away.
[15:08] #knownspace> nedry: it lasted me six months
[15:09] #knownspace> Lensman: dmac: You can find the archived chat posted at LarryNiven.org
[15:09] #knownspace> dmac44: thanks

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[15:09] #knownspace> Lensman: FOW is out in paper. I guess JOW is too, not sure.
[15:09] #knownspace> Larry: Hello! Sorry I'm late.
[15:10] #knownspace> SeanS: hi Larry
[15:10] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Thank you. ive got to get to Barnes and Noble to put money on the card..
[15:10] #knownspace> Larry: I'm not sure either. Paperback publication used to be a lot more dependable.
[15:10] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Larry!
[15:10] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Hi!
[15:11] #knownspace> Larry: I checked in yesterday, thinking it was Saturday.
[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, that's what Sean said. Anything important discussed?
[15:11] #knownspace> Larry: no
[15:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Just checked with Amazon.com, yes JOW is out in paperback.
[15:12] #knownspace> nedry: Hi Larry
[15:12] #knownspace> AlexA: FYI JOW is also out in paperback in uk (we usually trail the US)
[15:13] #knownspace> Lensman: I know there was at least one bit added to the pb version of FOW. Larry, did you add anything to the pb edition of JOW?
[15:14] #knownspace> AlexA: Any thoughts on Nasa budget Larry, or anyone else?
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[15:15] #knownspace> Larry: No additions to the PB of Juggler.
[15:15] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Sorry 'bout that.
[15:15] #knownspace> Lensman: I think NASA *should* get out of the business of routine flights to LEO. But I'd rather have seen it done in a planned fashion, not because they haven't been able to develop a good reliable launch system!
[15:15] #knownspace> Larry: NASA budget: I'm undecided.
[15:16] #knownspace> Larry: I'm glad to see other countries (Russia) getting involved in the Defense of Earth.
[15:16] #knownspace> AlexA: Bolden did a press Q&A today: Apparently pu a little more meat on the bones.
[15:16] #knownspace> nedry: If they do what they say they will do in the future, it could be good. If they don't (and there is a long record of don't) then it could mean the end of American human space flight. High stakes.
[15:17] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm very very gratified that the Obama budget has NASA spending significant money researching new improved propulsion systems. But will that still be there after Congress finishes fiddling with it?
[15:17] #knownspace> Larry: It's always been high stakes.
[15:17] #knownspace> AlexA: Bolden hopes to get HLV "in next couple of decades".
[15:18] #knownspace> nedry: Everyone with a seat in a district with Constallation contracts will be pissed. Many of them are in oversight positions (big suprise there).
[15:18] #knownspace> nedry: They have, basically, a HLV now, they are going to scrap it.
[15:18] #knownspace> nedry: Here we go again...
[15:19] #knownspace> AlexA: Apparently Bolden admitted budget/new plan launch wasn't well handled: He ignored Nasa PR.
[15:19] #knownspace> nedry: Larry -> seems to be it could be less high stakes if they had a constant research budget to run along side what they are already doing, to develop the next thing. Without that...

[15:19] #knownspace> nedry: ...you get this.
[15:20] #knownspace> nedry: I've watched a nice clip of the President speaking, promising not to do what he just did.
[15:20] #knownspace> Lensman: I think there are good arguments to be made for NASA having its own LEO launch system. I just think it's been absorbing waaaay too much of their budget the past few decades. I also think they're not being as innovative as they should. Launching singe-use rockets is the MISS approach... Man In Space Soonest. We should go back to the X-15 and Dyna-Soar model for developing a reusable spaceplane.
[15:20] #knownspace> nedry: which is ironic, as when he was a canidate, he said he would do something like this.
[15:20] #knownspace> nedry: so there you go. both sides of the issue at once.
[15:21] #knownspace> nedry: got to go pick my my wife, who takes me to task for reading your books, Mr. Niven. Nice to chat with you...hopefully, I will make it back
[15:21] #knownspace> nedry: she hates "space stuff"
[15:22] #knownspace> Larry: tell her about kinetic energy.
[15:22] #knownspace> AlexA: I'll pop out & see if I can find a link for Bolden's recent comments.
[15:22] #knownspace> nedry: i'd like to see that.
[15:23] #knownspace> nedry: larry -> I will do that. I tried to get her to read Integral Trees once, but she couldn't get the orbital mechanics

[15:23] #knownspace> nedry: larry -> she did really enjoy Inferno though.

[15:23] #knownspace> AlexA: nedry: Have you told her that Earth is a spaceship : )
[15:23] #knownspace> AlexA: Brb
[15:23] #knownspace> nedry: alex -> see this website I just did: http://www.doonofmay.org.uk
[15:24] #knownspace> nedry: you'll see where she's coming from. Hippy Dippy to the max, dude.
[15:24] #knownspace> nedry: It took me 9 months to get rid of the scotish hippy in the loft she let live here. (; The hygenic implications where shocking!
[15:26] #knownspace> Larry: Nedry, go get your wife or she'll blame me.
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[15:27] #knownspace> nedry: Yes sir (she's a nurse, she's always late out)
[15:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Can anyone explain to me just what the NASA involvement was in the development of computers? Were there high-speed digital computers before NASA needed them to be developed?
[15:28] #knownspace> AlexA: Ok, videos of Bolden Q&A are here: http://www.cfnews13.com/Space/DestinationSpace/2010/2/6/nasa_chief_hopes_space_work_can_stay_in_brevard.html?cmpid=?cmpid=twitter">nasa chief hopes space work can stay in brevard
[15:28] #knownspace> AlexA: Lensman: I believe they were developed for ballistic missile guidance first
[15:29] #knownspace> SeanS: computers came into existance for 2 basic reasons. to go to the moon and play pong.
[15:29] #knownspace> Larry: Jerry Pournelle can speak re computers. Once there were big computers. Then it became obvious that ICBMs need little computers, so those were developed. Then: they went commercial.
[15:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay. It's been said that NASA research has had a huge payback to our society in such things as medical biomonotors, and computer tech. I'd like to know more about the computer angle.
[15:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Correct me if I'm wrong, but ICBM development didn't come out of NASA budget.
[15:31] #knownspace> AlexA: First programmable computer was Collosus: British WW2 codebreaking
[15:31] #knownspace> Lensman: But not digital, right?
[15:32] #knownspace> Larry: NASA must have done some research, to get computers aboard the Apollos and Shuttles. But those became obsolete quick.
[15:32] #knownspace> AlexA: .wik Collosus computer
[15:32] #knownspace> Outsider: "The Colossus machines were electronic computing devices used by British codebreakers to read encrypted German messages during World War II." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer
[15:32] #knownspace> Larry: I know not of any NASA involvement in developing computers.
[15:32] #knownspace> Lensman: If I understand what I've read, the Shuttle computers are about equivalent to five Apple IIs.
[15:33] #knownspace> SeanS: they are 70's tech.
[15:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: Okay, guess I'm wrong on that point then.
[15:33] #knownspace> AlexA: If wkipedia is correct, Collosus was digital
[15:33] #knownspace> Lensman: Guess I need to read up on the Colossus! Thanx Alex.
[15:33] #knownspace> AlexA: .wik apollo guidance computer
[15:33] #knownspace> Outsider: "The Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC) was an on-board digital computer installed in each Apollo program spacecraft, both the Command Module (CM) and the Lunar Module (LM)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_guidance_computer
[15:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry: Should we expect /Betrayer of Worlds/ to be published about a year after DOW?
[15:36] #knownspace> AlexA: ^apparently AGC was a new design but learnt lessons from ICBM guidance
[15:37] #knownspace> AlexA: AGC did lead to development of FBW
[15:37] #knownspace> Lensman: What means "FBW" ?
[15:37] #knownspace> AlexA: Fly-by-wire
[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: -k-
[15:38] #knownspace> Larry: "Betrayer of Worlds" is proofed and ready to go, as of yesterday. I don't have a pub date, but I suspect Fall 2010.
[15:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Oh, the final draft is done Larry?
[15:39] #knownspace> AlexA: Larry: talking of computing: Until FOW, no KS stories featured Arrtificial Intelligence. Why?
[15:39] #knownspace> Larry: Betrayer probably follows Destroyer by a year, yeah. But the last book, "The Fate of Worlds", will wait a couple of years, according to TOR.
[15:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry said Hindmost's Voice, in RC was AI. Don't remember if it was in RT or not.
[15:40] #knownspace> Larry: I'm as guilty as anyone of not putting reasonable computers in my early stories. We just didn't see it coming.
[15:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah.... don't recall seeing the final title before.
[15:42] #knownspace> Larry: I've admired Frank Herbert's approach in "Dune" and its sequels. The AIs were declared anathema and destroyed by a religious upsurge.
[15:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, does BOW deal with why Louis Wu doesn't seem to know who Carlos Wu is when Hindmost is talking about him regarding the nanotech autodoc? Or should we presume Louis is "playing dumb" because he doesn't want Hindmost to know about his family?
[15:43] #knownspace> SeanS: yah, i liked that in dune as well
[15:43] #knownspace> Larry: and I like Ed Lerner's term "AIde" for someone's personal AI.
[15:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Me too, that's a neat term.
[15:44] #knownspace> Larry: Lensman, BOW will answer that.
[15:44] #knownspace> SeanS: i like AIde much better than PDA
[15:45] #knownspace> Lensman: This is the problem with writing a series over 45+ years. The real-world technology advances... and the old stories are set in stone, as it were.
[15:45] #knownspace> SeanS: Scalzi uses BrainPal in old man's war.
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[15:45] #knownspace> unclenasty: Hey all
[15:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Great book, but I don't care for that term.
[15:45] #knownspace> SeanS: hi neil
[15:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Hello Uncle!
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[15:46] #knownspace> dmac44: Larry, can you tell us what projects you're currently working on?

[15:46] #knownspace> unclenasty: hi Larry! seems like only yesterday you were last in here ;)
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: BrainPal does sound like a brand name that some company would use, though. An attempt to make it sound user-friendly.
[15:47] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL yesterday...
[15:47] #knownspace> dmac44: the iBrain

[15:48] #knownspace> unclenasty: Smoke Ring could go super-steampunk
[15:48] #knownspace> Lensman: -/Smoke Ring/ is one of Larry's best-written stories IMHO
[15:49] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I agree with Lensman
[15:52] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, are you working on anything besides BOW? Anything sold but not yet published?
[15:56] #knownspace> Larry: currently working on: proofing "Stars and Gods" (a collection), "The Moon Maze Game" with Steven Barnes, "Ludifer's Anvil" with Jerry Pournelle, "The Bowl of Heaven" with Gregory Benford, and some anthologists are hoping for stories.
[15:57] #knownspace> SeanS: lucifer's anvil sounds intriguing
[15:58] #knownspace> Lensman: Is "Stars and Gods" /Scatterbrain II/ or something else? Is "Anvil" a sequel to "Hammer"? I presume "Moon Maze" is another Dream Park novel?
[15:58] #knownspace> Larry: "Lucifer's Anvil" needs a better title. It'll be heavy on the politics, really using Jerry's skills.
[15:59] #knownspace> Lensman: "Bowl" is the (modified) Dyson sphere story, is that right?
[15:59] #knownspace> Larry: Lansman: right.
[16:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Is "Stars and Gods" what was previously referred to as "Scatterbrain II", or is it a different type of collection?
[16:01] #knownspace> Larry: Bowl is ambitious. It'll look like the whole Ringworld set, if we can pull it off. Or like "Orbitsville", only I don't think he did.
[16:01] #knownspace> Lensman: How many years have you been working on "Bowl", now?
[16:02] #knownspace> Larry: "Stars and Gods" is "Scatterbrain 2" (or "N-Space 4"). Pardon the hyperarrogant title: it's not mine.
[16:03] #knownspace> Larry: Working on "Bowl" maybe two years. maybe more.
[16:03] #knownspace> SeanS: well, all are eagerly awaited ;)
[16:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Kelly Freas mentioned that some thought the collection of his art /A Distant Star/ was arrogant or at least conceited. My mind just doesn't work that way, I just think of the title as describing the contents.
[16:04] #knownspace> Lensman: I mean, the *title* /A Distant Star/.
[16:05] #knownspace> Lensman: What stories by Larry feature gods? Well, there's /The Magic Goes Away/.
[16:06] #knownspace> Lensman: -/Burning City/
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Ringworld natives seem to have regarded Zrillir and maybe Prill as gods.
[16:08] #knownspace> SeanS: passerby
[16:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes
[16:09] #knownspace> Lensman: -/Inferno/ and its sequel... Lucifer is a god.
[16:09] #knownspace> Larry: I've played with the "God" concept from time to time. Generally, my magic follows rules; gods don't.
[16:11] #knownspace> Akiraa: Larry, have you considered or been approached in writing backstories for computer games, other than Halo?
[16:11] #knownspace> Lensman: -/Achilles' Choice/ and /The Saturn Race/ compare the elite rulers to gods, altho it's not intended to be taken literally.
[16:12] #knownspace> Larry: I may have been approached to write computer game backstories. I turned them down. I'd have to play the damn thing--and I'm not that good or that quick.
[16:13] #knownspace> Akiraa: how about having one of your stories be turned into one?
[16:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry has been involved with developing a computer game called "Free Fall", but AFAIK that has not been published.
[16:15] #knownspace> Larry: "FRee Fall" is stalled by the economy, I'm told. And of course there were a couple of "Ringworld" games from Tsunami. I thought they ran a little slow.
[16:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry, did you have any input into the Tsunami games? My impression is you didn't.
[16:16] #knownspace> Larry: didn't.
[16:21] #knownspace> SeanS: do you think the private sector can step up and get to LEO and beyond?
[16:21] #knownspace> Lensman: Going back to NASA... what are some propulsion systems we could realistically see developed in the next two decades or so? Can laser launch be practical to carry a crew capsule to orbit?
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[16:22] #knownspace> SeanS: having a bit of a problem, chis?
[16:22] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yes!
[16:23] #knownspace> Lensman: What I'd really *like* to see is a launch ramp using a linear accelerator. But that would be a mega engineering project... something on the scale of the Panama Canal or even bigger. Doesn't seem likely to happen in today's political climate. Too much risk adversion.
[16:23] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I think it might be my spliced cable... I think its fixed now.
[16:23] #knownspace> Lensman: I hope so, Chris!
[16:23] #knownspace> SeanS: ends are cheap
[16:23] #knownspace> Larry: Laser launch to orbit: feels like the far future. Beanstalks: I was surprised to see progress there, but all Beanstalk schemes depend on having a goddam rocket ship, and we won't.
[16:23] #knownspace> CCulpepper: As do I.
[16:24] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What would you use this launch ramp for?
[16:24] #knownspace> Larry: The bottleneck is the rocket ship, ground to orbit. Its bottleneck is the motor. I've been saying this for awhile. NASA has worked on motors; they never carry through.
[16:25] #knownspace> SeanS: i don't see getting away from chemical boosters any time soon
[16:25] #knownspace> Lensman: I was on the Liftport forum for awhile. Interesting approach for starting with a minimalist Space Elevator, then building up to something capable of carrying a person. I'm not sure they can really build a machine to climb many thousands of miles of cable, gluing down a layer of ribbon as it goes. The requirement for working perfectly with no problems for a long time seem formidable.
[16:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Launch ramp would dispense with the need for a rocket. About 500 miles long and maybe 60-100 miles high at the launch end. Made of carbon fiber trusses, which it's claimed we could do with today's technology.
[16:27] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ah.
[16:27] #knownspace> Larry: All kudos to Liftport for their courage. I have more faith in solar sails.
[16:27] #knownspace> Lensman: Obviously expensive to build, but once built it's dirt-cheap by comparison to launch anything into orbit. All you pay for is the electricity to power the linear accelerators.
[16:28] #knownspace> SeanS: can see somethiing like that used for cargo but not passengers.
[16:28] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Maybe passengers if you could lower the gees.
[16:28] #knownspace> dmac44: Lens: Maintence would be a bitch (especially at the 60 to 100 mile high end)
[16:29] #knownspace> Lensman: There are concepts for a "launch ring" which would be a high-gee launch for small unmanned packages.
[16:29] #knownspace> CCulpepper: How would you get anything that high anyways? A 120 mile high crane?
[16:29] #knownspace> SeanS: but if you had the linear for cargo, your passenger capsule can be vey small. making chemical fuels more attractive
[16:30] #knownspace> Larry: We're not short of concepts.
[16:30] #knownspace> Lensman: 500+ mile long ramp would make the acceleration low enuff for manned launches.
[16:30] #knownspace> SeanS: build it up the side of a mountain
[16:30] #knownspace> Lensman: You'd have to make cranes that could climb the trusses, I suppose.
[16:31] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What if you had the base in an ocean?
[16:31] #knownspace> Lensman: What advantage do you see there, Chris?
[16:32] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I would think that it would be easier for maintenencefor the underwater portian, and you would smaller trusses.
[16:33] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Wait a minute... Enclosing that massive space would be tough.
[16:33] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I retract that suggestion/
[16:33] #knownspace> Lensman: You just enclose the ramp itself. It needs to be evacuated, otherwise the air resistance is too much.
[16:34] #knownspace> Lensman: The top end needs to stick up out of most of the atmosphere. Not seeing how building it in the water is practical.
[16:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ah. Didnt think it needed to be outside the atmosphere.
[16:35] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, lots of ideas. But I doubt we'll see anything but chemical multi-stage rockets in our lifetime.
[16:35] #knownspace> SeanS: i think i said that. ;)
[16:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Whats the hurdle on the space elevator?
[16:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Chris, the objects exiting the launch end need to exit almost horizontal. You can't launch deep in the atmosphere or you lose too much energy to wind resistance. And heat up the capsule, too.
[16:36] #knownspace> Larry: In my lifetime, I doubt I'll see men on other planets, though that was promised. Then again, I've seen a lot that was never promised for my time.
[16:36] #knownspace> SeanS: you have to be in geosinch and drop the cable down and up at the same time
[16:36] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Okay. How much power do you think it would consume?
[16:37] #knownspace> Lensman: But for a different take on that, see the website about building a launch tunnel in Antarctica, as an ice tunnel. They assume a really *heavy* needle shaped capsule that does punch thru the atmosphere as it's launched.
[16:38] #knownspace> Larry: I'm outa here. Thanks for your company, all.
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[16:38] #knownspace> SeanS: thank you for yours, larry
[16:38] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Bye
[16:38] #knownspace> SeanS: hi jim
[16:38] #knownspace> Lensman: How much power? Obviously depends on how heavy the capsule is. We'd likely need at least one nuclear power plant to power a launch system which can launch manned capsules. Maybe more, depending on what the losses are in running power to the linear accelerators.
[16:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Bye Larry! Thanks for dropping in.
[16:38] #knownspace> Jim: I missed Larry; what did you talk about?
[16:39] #knownspace> SeanS: launch systems
[16:39] #knownspace> SeanS: works in progress\
[16:39] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, Larry mentioned some upcoming works... I'll have to put up a news article about that at LarryNiven.org.
[16:40] #knownspace> Jim: will ed be here?
[16:40] #knownspace> SeanS: <Larry> currently working on: proofing "Stars and Gods" (a collection), "The Moon Maze Game" with Steven Barnes, "Ludifer's Anvil" with Jerry Pournelle, "The Bowl of Heaven" with Gregory Benford, and some anthologists are hoping for stories.
[16:40] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: Good question.
[16:40] #knownspace> SeanS: i havn't talked to ed
[16:41] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed did not respond to my message re: chat, so hopefully he'll be here.
[16:41] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman
[16:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Ed usually shows up shortly after Larry leaves... leading to jokes they are the same person. : )
[16:42] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman: was you describing use linear accelerators to launch spacecraft from the earth?
[16:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Why do I see some messages preceded with the screen name in a gray box? Are those private messages to me?
[16:43] #knownspace> SeanS: ed is more puter savvy than larry. 2 different people ;)\
[16:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: Yes.
[16:43] #knownspace> SeanS: i don't know how chatzilla formats its messages
[16:44] #knownspace> SeanS: a pm here opens another window
[16:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: A launch ramp, about 500+ miles long and the end sticking up out of most of the atmosphere, maybe 60-100 miles high.
[16:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Made of carbon fiber trusses.
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[16:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Jim: Did you send me a private message?
[16:45] #knownspace> Jim: No
[16:45] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay. Strange.
[16:48] #knownspace> Lensman: As I was saying, such a ramp seems do-able with today's technology, but I don't see such a mega-engineering project being funded in today's risk-adverse political climate. We haven't seen such a thing since the Panama Canal... altho perhaps the man-to-the-moon project qualifies.
[16:48] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What if it was a multi-nation venture?
[16:49] #knownspace> SeanS: yeah, getting that film studio up to the moon was a major feat of engineering.
[16:49] #knownspace> Lensman: LOL
[16:49] #knownspace> Jim: yes
[16:50] #knownspace> Jim: The
[16:50] #knownspace> Jim: The Panama Canal will have to be replaced soon.
[16:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Chris: Again, it's do-able, but I don't see it happening. Look at the International Space Station, which is mostly useless. That's what you get when you have to get everybody to agree... too many compromises for anything very useful. "A camel is a horse designed by committee".
[16:51] #knownspace> SeanS: yep. canal to narrow for modern traffic
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[16:51] #knownspace> Lensman: Panama Canal needs to be wider. Not sure if they will dig a new one or widen the one that's there.
[16:51] #knownspace> SeanS: have to build a new one.
[16:52] #knownspace> SeanS: cant take existing out of service to widen it
[16:52] #knownspace> Jim: Widening the current Panama Canal is not an option.
[16:52] #knownspace> SeanS: keep existing as private traffic locks
[16:53] #knownspace> Lensman: What does that mean, Sean?
[16:53] #knownspace> SeanS: most lock and dam systems today have a commercial chamber side by side with a pleasure craft chamber
[16:54] #knownspace> SeanS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McAlpine_Locks_and_Dam
[16:55] #knownspace> Lensman: Hmmm, I was thinking the opposite. That another wider canal could be build adjacent to the current one, but that the current canal could handle 95%+ of the traffice.
[16:55] #knownspace> SeanS: i took a 1400 mile boat trip from kentucky to fort walton fl. trust me. thats how it works
[16:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Sean, I guess that read as if I were arguing. Sorry, clearly you're more informed on the subject than I; that was just me voicing my musings.
[16:57] #knownspace> Jim: that must have been fun
[16:58] #knownspace> SeanS: took 23 days last october. long ride
[16:58] #knownspace> SeanS: was not arguing
[16:58] #knownspace> SeanS: also the canal locks ,existing, take 3 chambers per lift
[16:59] #knownspace> SeanS: new locks can do the same lift with one chamber
[16:59] #knownspace> Lensman: Optimum is just one chamber per lift?
[16:59] #knownspace> Jim: yes
[16:59] #knownspace> Lensman: That would certainly cut down on the transit time!
[17:00] #knownspace> SeanS: yep... throwing less water downstream and less work for deckhands and operators
[17:00] #knownspace> Lensman: ...and would be one reason to use a new canal for most of the traffic, instead of just for the largest ships.
[17:00] #knownspace> SeanS: yep
[17:01] #knownspace> SeanS: jim, i can throw you some pics if you want.
[17:01] #knownspace> Jim: yes
[17:02] #knownspace> SeanS: went down the ohio, up the cumberland, into barkley lake, over to kentucky lake, up tennessee river to pickwick lake, down tenn-tombigbee waterway to mobile, the intercoastal to fort walton
[17:03] #knownspace> Jim: It would have taken longer, if you had gone the way of the New Orleans
[17:04] #knownspace> SeanS: yes. the tenn-tom cut off hundreds of miles
[17:04] #knownspace> SeanS: went through about 20 locks along the way
[17:05] #knownspace> SeanS: saw lift bridges, swing bridges. lots of sights
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[17:06] #knownspace> SeanS: the majority iof the tenn-tom is just a big fucking ditch tho
[17:06] #knownspace> dmac44: Going back to the launch system, it sounds a lot like a lofstrom loop

[17:06] #knownspace> SeanS: lofstrom loop... is than in the heechee books?
[17:07] #knownspace> dmac44: yes, also wikiopedia

[17:07] #knownspace> dmac44: I meant wikipedia has an article

[17:09] #knownspace> SeanS: if i remember, the loop physically was spun up. we are talking an electromagnetic accellerator.
[17:09] #knownspace> SeanS: essentially shooting stuff into space with a rail gun
[17:11] #knownspace> dmac44: todat the tallest building is what, less than a mile high. And the launch system we were discussing was 100 times as high. I don't think we have the engineering capability to do that now

[17:11] #knownspace> SeanS: i dont either
[17:12] #knownspace> SeanS: probably the better way is a long level run angling up at the end for a mile or so.
[17:12] #knownspace> Lensman: If you mean what I think you mean, then yes a launch loop in the Heechee books was spun up to speed. One of several approaches to a Space Elevator that isn't a full space elevator. The launch loop I was referring to earlier is a stationary ring of linear accelerator around which the payload runs multiple times to get up to speed, then it's shunted onto a "Siding" which has a steep upward...
[17:12] #knownspace> Lensman: ...angle. The upward curve would impart a very high-gee acceleration, too high for manned launch. Unless you have a stasis field. : )
[17:13] #knownspace> dmac44: Having a structure that is 100 miles high to hold up those rings is the problem I see

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[17:14] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't think there's any real bar to building a ramp 60-100 miles high. Obviously you don't pick up stuff directly off the ground with a crane, you haul it up to the top of the part of the ramp that's already built. Build it sort of like building a brick wall, one horizontal layer at a time.
[17:16] #knownspace> Lensman: It's just a really high truss bridge. It would be formidable because of the expense and the size, and any human workers would need to be wearing high-altitude suits to breathe. Use electric motors instead of diesel for the cranes, so no oxygen needed.
[17:17] #knownspace> Lensman: But it's not like we'd need anything beyond current technology.
[17:17] #knownspace> SeanS: cooking for gf. bbiab
[17:17] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Would the carbon fiber be strong enough?
[17:18] #knownspace> dmac44: We'd need someone to do the math regarding the structurial requirements.

[17:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Chris, according to what I've read, yes carbon fiber is sufficiently strong. We don't need carbon nanotube structural members.
[17:18] #knownspace> Jim: SeanS: girlfriend and ?
[17:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Be Back In A Bit, perhaps?
[17:19] #knownspace> Jim: ok
[17:19] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Okay. That was the only major hurdle that i saw.
[17:19] #knownspace> Jim: nedry!
[17:21] #knownspace> Lensman: There's a system that builds skyscrapers by crawling up the sides as it's built. Don't know what it's called. Perhaps something like that could be used for an automated system to build such a ramp. Not precisely that, because that system is basically a box around one entire floor of the skyscraper. But the idea of something that moves upward, building the thing holding it up as it goes......
[17:21] #knownspace> Lensman: ...perhaps the launch ramp could be built that way.
[17:24] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I sthis launch system enclosed?
[17:24] #knownspace> Lensman: There is a tube atop the ramp that is enclosed. The rest of it is an open truss bridge.
[17:25] #knownspace> CCulpepper: You wonld need giand holes to anchor the trusses, right?
[17:25] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Would and giant those misspelled words are.
[17:26] #knownspace> Lensman: Chris, I'm not an engineer. Certainly it would need to be anchored solidly, just as a truss bridge is.
[17:26] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Okay.
[17:27] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Do you know how far apart the trusses are?
[17:27] #knownspace> SeanS: back... after a bit. ;)
[17:28] #knownspace> Jim: Lensman: Can you show us a picture or, even better, a drawing?
[17:28] #knownspace> Lensman: The main obstacle to building something that high is its own weight. I has to have a very high strength/weight ratio or it will collapse under its own weight. The weight of what's on top isn't really a problem from an engineering standpoint; you can always build the ramp wider and distribute the weight over more area. But doing so makes the price go up rather rapidly!
[17:29] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I cant even thnink in this kind of scale today.
[17:29] #knownspace> Lensman: Unfortunately I have not found any website for a space ramp. There used to be a SkyRamp site showing building a ramp up the side of a mountain, which was supposed to replace the first stage of a rocket. But it was a horrible site and it's no longer there.
[17:30] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't think it needs a complex drawing. Just find a picture of a truss bridge and imagine it 500 miles long, and at an upward angle. : )
[17:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Actually, a roller coaster is better:
[17:32] #knownspace> CCulpepper: wow. The tax-payers would never go for it.
[17:32] #knownspace> Lensman: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Naz_Night_08_007.JPG
[17:32] #knownspace> Lensman: That's right, it would never get funded. Too expensive.
[17:33] #knownspace> Lensman: But it would make individual launches ridiculously cheap.
[17:33] #knownspace> CCulpepper: One thousandth of the simulus. and it would make thousands of jobs.
[17:33] #knownspace> Lensman: If we want easy access to orbit, that's the way to go IMO
[17:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: IMO?
[17:34] #knownspace> Lensman: In My Opinion
[17:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ah.
[17:35] #knownspace> Lensman: I suspect the price would be higher than 1/1000 the stimulus. Perhaps between 1/100 and 1/10.
[17:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: So 10 - 100 bil?
[17:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Maybe. Just throwing out ballpark numbers. I haven't seen any attempt at a detailed analysis.
[17:36] #knownspace> Lensman: People who propose this sort of thing tend to lowball the price.
[17:37] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I was thinking one. That would either crash the economy or stagger it untill it was built
[17:37] #knownspace> Lensman: "Everything takes longer and costs more." Especially if it's something that's never been built before.
[17:37] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Aint that the truth.
[17:38] #knownspace> Lensman: It's the nature of large engineering projects to cost substantially more than first estimated. Look at the Panama Canal!
[17:38] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yeah.
[17:38] #knownspace> Jim: As a culture, Western society may be moving out of a period when large scale civil engineering projects are attempted. The death of the West.
[17:38] #knownspace> CCulpepper: But once you build it it pays for itself
[17:39] #knownspace> SeanS: all the cost wold be construction
[17:40] #knownspace> Lensman: But I don't see it as something so expensive as to "crash the economy". If so, then we shouldn't do it. Right now there's no economic incentive to go into space. Putting industry into orbit is a great dream, but I don't see it paying to do so, at least not in the foreseeable future.
[17:40] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Power is too miniscule to count?
[17:40] #knownspace> Lensman: I think so. There would be some maintenance, but I don't think it would be much.
[17:40] #knownspace> SeanS: i still see an earth based accellereator as cargo only
[17:41] #knownspace> Lensman: The cost of building one or two nuclear power plants to power the thing would be dwarfed by the overall cost, I think.
[17:42] #knownspace> SeanS: just about all power plants should be nuke anyway.
[17:42] #knownspace> Lensman: And actually building the plants would make the system more economical, because the power would be sold to the grid most of the time.
[17:42] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yeah. *mock concerned voice8 But they might explode! And kill animals!
[17:42] #knownspace> SeanS: right
[17:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, well I guess I'm showing my bias. There's no reason a coal-fired or natural-gas-fired plant couldn't power the thing, altho you'd likely need more than one.
[17:44] #knownspace> SeanS: no bias seen here. i promote nuke power
[17:44] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I like nuclear.
[17:45] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Almost unlimited fuel.
[17:47] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Excuse me for but a minute, or ten. Dinner
[17:47] #knownspace> SeanS: k
[17:52] #knownspace> dmac44: I've got to go, see you all next month.

[17:52] #knownspace> SeanS: kk
[17:52] #knownspace> Jim: seeya
[17:55] #knownspace> SeanS: jim, check email
[17:55] #knownspace> Akiraa: I think it's rather that once the bureaucracy is in place (i.e. stafe-funded civil engineering), it doesn
[17:56] #knownspace> Akiraa: it creates its own reasons to exist
[17:56] #knownspace> Akiraa: which is also resistant to change
[17:57] #knownspace> Akiraa: The engineers who ran the Apollo program came largely from the free market and had the ethics and habits developed there
[17:57] #knownspace> SeanS: true
[17:57] #knownspace> Lensman: That's what bureaucracy does best, unfortunately.
[17:57] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[18:00] #knownspace> Lensman: I can't find the contents for /Stars and Gods/ online anywhere, which is surprising if it's slated for publication in August.
[18:00] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What is it?
[18:00] #knownspace> Lensman: What is what? /Stars and Gods/?
[18:01] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yes
[18:01] #knownspace> Lensman: Larry's next "a bit of everything" anthology, like /N-Space/ and /Scatterbrain/.
[18:02] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ah. I dont think i have Scatterbrain.
[18:02] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Is it fairly new?
[18:03] #knownspace> Lensman: I confess I waited for the paperback. Not much new there, and I don't like paying for novel excerpts.
[18:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Hmm. Is it worth it?
[18:03] #knownspace> Jim: MMPB, yes
[18:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Altho "Canon for the Man-Kzin Wars" was necessary for my Known Space research.
[18:04] #knownspace> AlexA: Back
[18:04] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Okay, Ill add it to the list
[18:05] #knownspace> Lensman: -/Scatterbrain/ is relatively recent, yes. Is it worth it? I doubt anyone could answer that for you.
[18:07] #knownspace> AlexA: If your a fan, then a high % of content you already read.
[18:07] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Okay. And i am a fan.
[18:07] #knownspace> Lensman: Yeah, that was my problem, that so much of it I'd read. Someone less familiar with Larry's works would likely place a higher value on it.
[18:08] #knownspace> AlexA: So it depends on whether new stuff & the commentary on old stuff is of interest
[18:08] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What about the "* of Worlds" books?
[18:09] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What is the basic story line of them?
[18:09] #knownspace> Lensman: But personally I consider novel excerpts to be just filler, and there are a lot of those. And the long series of e-mail exchanges with Brenda Cooper were a waste of pages. If they had given some insight into the creative process, fine. But most of it was the sort of thing you and I would e-mail each other: "Hi, how are you. What are you up to today?" sort of stuff.
[18:10] #knownspace> AlexA: Only read Fleet... So far myself. Juggler seems to have mixed reviews
[18:10] #knownspace> SeanS: they are kind of a puppeteer an ausfaller point of view of much of known space
[18:10] #knownspace> SeanS: juggler has been my favorite so far
[18:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Chris the "OF WORLDS" books are the "secret history" of Known Space. Revisiting some of the same events previously told, re-telling them from a different POV with added details. But that's not all, there is a brand new story line there too.
[18:11] #knownspace> nedry: hey lens... I've replaced all the pictures here now: http://www.larryniven.net/collaborations.shtml
[18:11] #knownspace> AlexA: I've got juggler PB - probably will read next.
[18:11] #knownspace> Lensman: I like /Fleet of Worlds/ much more than the other two.
[18:11] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Thank you.
[18:11] #knownspace> nedry: except that really small one. I can't find a bigger version.
[18:12] #knownspace> Lensman: But everyone else seems to like /Juggler of Worlds/ more than I did.
[18:13] #knownspace> AlexA: Are we expecting Ed L to drop in?
[18:13] #knownspace> Lensman: Mark: Oh! You found a *much* better one for Brenda Cooper, congratulations!
[18:14] #knownspace> Lensman: Well I *was* thinking Ed would drop in, he generally lets me know if he's not coming, but if he's not here by now I guess he's not.
[18:16] #knownspace> nedry: thanks. she found it for me!
[18:16] #knownspace> nedry: i don't understand why i have high res versions of all these other pictures, and then that small thing of that one picture.
[18:17] #knownspace> nedry: i wonder carol / ted have one...
[18:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Here's one for Steve by himself:
[18:18] #knownspace> Lensman: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/thumb/d/d1/Barnes.jpg/250px-Barnes.jpg
[18:19] #knownspace> AlexA: Looking at Ed's bio, it would be interesting to hear his opinion on Nasa budget.
[18:20] #knownspace> AlexA: I presume LNL's resident rocketman, Wallace, is quiet due to working for Boeing : /
[18:23] #knownspace> Lensman: I respect Wallace's knowledge, but where opinions are concerned, he seems to me too much the defender of the "status quo". I think the guy who wrote /LEO on the Cheap/ has unassailable arguments... how can we justify continuing to build man-rated rockets as disposable vehicles? That's like building a train and destroying it after one run. As a quick-and-dirty approach, it was perhaps the...
[18:23] #knownspace> Lensman: ...best way to beat the Russkies. As a long-term plan, it sucks.
[18:24] #knownspace> Lensman: Whatever system we use to reach orbit, it should be *fully* re-usable.
[18:25] #knownspace> Lensman: We will never have routine access to orbit so long as we're using disposable vehicles.
[18:26] #knownspace> AlexA: Iirc Wallace thought reusable 2stage might work
[18:28] Fred has joined #knownspace
[18:28] #knownspace> Jim: Fred
[18:28] #knownspace> AlexA: If you can roll disposables off a production line maybe you can drive costs down & reliability up.
[18:29] Fred_via_Flash has joined #knownspace
[18:29] #knownspace> AlexA: Lean manning of launch ops should help too.
[18:29] #knownspace> Lensman: NASA concentrates too much on saving weight. Sure it saves on fuel, but the fuel is only 2% of the launch cost! If it's reusable it will have to be heavier, and therefore scaled up. I realize that. But making it bigger and requiring more fuel doesn't necessarily mean the overall cost goes up, *if* we can re-use the entire vehicle. And recycling the shuttle's solid stage boosters wasn't a...
[18:29] #knownspace> Lensman: ...good plan, either. That's not really "reusable", in the way that a commercial airliner is re-used.
[18:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Hi Fred!
[18:30] #knownspace> Fred: How does a megashark reuse a commercial airliner?
[18:30] #knownspace> Jim: how?
[18:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Chew toy?
[18:30] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: that's it's original use
[18:30] #knownspace> nedry: Reusable is hard because you end up with lots of weight you have to bring back... and weight you have to carry up with you, you end up with no space for cargo
[18:30] #knownspace> AlexA: There's analysis somewhere that shows reusable SRBs do save money
[18:31] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred: Okay; roughage. : )
[18:31] #knownspace> nedry: if you drop your tank, you don't have to carry it back with you... so you need a much smaller thing to say, shield from re-entry, and land, and junk and stuff.
[18:32] #knownspace> nedry: the numbers are against you
[18:32] #knownspace> AlexA: Also you can inspect them & fix faults - though of course they saw o-ring erosion & didn't act : (
[18:32] #knownspace> nedry: we need a space elavator or magic anti gravity
[18:32] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: well, define 'didn't act'
[18:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Okay, so if it's a reusable booster then it restricts the fraction of launch weight which is payload. So make the booster bigger. Achieve the same payload with a smaller fraction.
[18:33] #knownspace> nedry: they acted like it was a safe condition...
[18:33] #knownspace> nedry: so they did "act"
[18:33] #knownspace> Jim: launch
[18:33] #knownspace> Lensman: I can't imagine why the first stage needs a heat shield. It shouldn't be going that fast!
[18:34] #knownspace> Fred: right. they knew damn well it wasn't safe and acted to cover it up.
[18:35] #knownspace> AlexA: One problem is that a reusable first stage tends to end up significantly down-range
[18:35] #knownspace> AlexA: So you need a way to get it back to base
[18:36] #knownspace> Lensman: Put wings on the booster. Yes, I know, it increases the weight.
[18:37] #knownspace> Lensman: Is there another option? Put a propeller on the thing and let it float back? I dunno.
[18:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Or rather, let it float into port.
[18:38] #knownspace> AlexA: If you can afford the performance hit, then first stage is a straight up & down VTVL
[18:38] #knownspace> Lensman: Powered descent means you need fuel for the descent. Now you're *really* cutting into launch weight.
[18:39] #knownspace> Akiraa: There was a group that planned to build a helicopter rocket lander: goes up like a rocket, floats back like a helicopter
[18:40] #knownspace> AlexA: We'll see if Armadillo or Blue Origin can make VTVL work for orbital
[18:40] #knownspace> AlexA: ^Roton
[18:41] #knownspace> Lensman: As I understand it, the problem with ocean recovery is that it's pretty expensive to have ships out there to do the recovery. So ISTM either the booster needs to fly back to the launch site, or else it needs to be able to splash down and then act like a boat to get itself to a dock somewhere. Should be able to use balloons to float the thing, but how to power something like that I'm not sure.
[18:41] #knownspace> Jim: supper time
[18:41] #knownspace> AlexA: Blue Origin just got some Nasa money, for launch escape system work IIRC
[18:41] #knownspace> Jim: bye
[18:41] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: Au Jus, Jim
[18:41] #knownspace> nedry: replaced the picture of steven barns...
[18:42] #knownspace> Lensman: Roton proved impractical, as I understand it.
[18:42] #knownspace> AlexA: .g Blue Origin Nasa
[18:42] #knownspace> Outsider: AlexA: bezos_rocket_project_gets_nasa_funding_to_develop_human_spaceflight.html
[18:42] #knownspace> nedry: the rotary rocket was cool.
[18:42] #knownspace> nedry: i'd love to see that fly! I'm not sure I'd want to ride on it though.
[18:43] #knownspace> nedry: they couldn't get funding. they thought it would work
[18:43] #knownspace> Lensman: Mark, can I crop that picture of Steve for you?
[18:44] #knownspace> nedry: yeah. there is a bigger version though. you should crop that.
[18:44] #knownspace> AlexA: nedry: That was my understanding: money not tech issues
[18:44] #knownspace> nedry: http://www.larryniven.net/lngallery2000.shtml#images/larrynivenpics/StevenBarnes-r.jpg
[18:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Quoting from Wiki: "One problem found during research at Rotary was that once the vehicle left the atmosphere additional thrust would be necessary. Thus multiple engines would be needed at the tips as well as the base."
[18:45] #knownspace> nedry: they flew it as a chopper once. said it was very hard to fly. i don't doubt it
[18:45] #knownspace> AlexA: IIRC a lot of Rotary staff ended up at SpaceX
[18:46] #knownspace> Lensman: Mark: Is that the one you want to use, then?
[18:46] #knownspace> AlexA: .wik rotary rocket
[18:46] #knownspace> Outsider: "Rotary Rocket, Inc, was a rocketry company headquartered in a 45,000-square-foot (4,200 m|2|) facility at Mojave Airport that developed the Roton concept in the late 1990s as a fully reusable Single Stage to Orbit (SSTO) manned spacecraft." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_Rocket
[18:46] #knownspace> nedry: it's the only picture I've got permission for
[18:47] #knownspace> nedry: i don't have contact details to ask him for a better one
[18:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, as I said, my impression was the problem with the Roton was practicality, not money.
[18:47] #knownspace> Lensman: Mark: I think that's fine, personally.
[18:47] #knownspace> nedry: i had my doubts that it would work. but i'm no rocket scientist
[18:49] #knownspace> Lensman: From my faulty memory: The rockets used by the Roton had to be small ones. Couldn't scale them up to a large rocket. So adding more thrust meant multiple rocket nozzles. At some point, adding more makes it ridiculously complex.
[18:49] #knownspace> nedry: lens -> lets go with that one then. did you want to crop it and send it back to me?

[18:52] #knownspace> nedry: the roton heat shield sounds a bit dodgy as well
[18:55] #knownspace> AlexA: If wikipedia is correct, there seemed to be more tech issue than I rembered from the time
[18:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Mark, you've got mail.
[18:58] #knownspace> AlexA: A reusable needs *somthing* to slow it down: Thrust, wings, parachute or rotors. All are mass.
[18:59] #knownspace> nedry: i liked the paraglider approach that the crew return vehicle used (or was supposed to use)
[19:00] #knownspace> AlexA: SpaceX used to say their first stages would be re-used. Haven't heard it recently
[19:01] #knownspace> nedry: how? landing them in the sea on parachutes? wouldn't that play havoc with liquied fueled engines?
[19:01] #knownspace> AlexA: I guess so nedry
[19:02] #knownspace> AlexA: .g spacex falcon reusable
[19:02] #knownspace> Outsider: AlexA: http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2009/01/musk-ambition-spacex-aim-for-fully-reusable-falcon-9/
[19:02] #knownspace> Lensman: Parachute isn't much mass, I think. But generally not controllable. I suppose in theory it could use a parasail, but I seriously question that would be practical for a massive object. And I strongly suspect it wouldn't be reliable in bad weather. A reliable launch system shouldn't have to wait for perfect weather.
[19:02] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What is replacing the shuttle later this year?
[19:03] #knownspace> Lensman: Chris: I think we'll be depending on the Russians.
[19:03] #knownspace> nedry: NASA made the test vehicle for the crew return vehicle use a parafoil. it worked really well
[19:03] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Isnt that an oxymoron?
[19:03] #knownspace> nedry: yeah. nothing is replacing it.
[19:04] #knownspace> Lensman: What Nedry said.
[19:04] #knownspace> nedry: or rather, nothing NASA is designing. I think someone (Boeing) will put some sort of stripped Orion capsule on an Atlas
[19:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Well then, a parafoil plus deployable propellors?
[19:05] #knownspace> nedry: Maybe SpaceX will make the Falcon 9 go and do their capsule as well.
[19:06] #knownspace> Lensman: I think the Falcon 9 will need a *lot* of development before NASA would be willing to put astronauts on it. Eventually, I hope so. But it ain't gonna be ready for that soon.
[19:06] #knownspace> nedry: I'm rooting for China. The next man on the moon will be Chinese.. I bet.
[19:06] #knownspace> nedry: Lensman -> Probably true. My money is on the Atlas thing... Or maybe a Delta IV heavy...

[19:06] #knownspace> AlexA: The article I googled above talks about recovering F1 1st stage & seeing what needs beefing up
[19:06] #knownspace> SeanS: hi fred
[19:07] #knownspace> Lensman: I'm rooting for China too. Because if China succeeds, there will be a lot of political pressure to increase NASA's budget.
[19:07] #knownspace> SeanS: was inkitchen and didnt see you come in
[19:08] #knownspace> nedry: lenman -> exactly

[19:08] #knownspace> nedry: I never got that mail...
[19:08] #knownspace> SeanS: sorry for brevity and typos. still typing one fingered
[19:08] #knownspace> AlexA: Musk says each 5 pounds spent on recovering 1st stage is 1 pound lost payload
[19:08] #knownspace> Lensman: Ah, *now* I get it! If someone starts their post with the word "Lensman", Chatzilla alerts me with a noise and highlighting the name of the post-er.
[19:08] #knownspace> AlexA: 1:1 for second stage
[19:10] #knownspace> AlexA: Lensman: I get colour highlight & noise in Colloquy too
[19:11] #knownspace> AlexA: .g Armadillo Aerospace news
[19:11] #knownspace> Outsider: AlexA: http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home/News
[19:11] #knownspace> Lensman: Mark: I guess I used the wrong e-mail addy. Is the "cortex" one functional?
[19:12] #knownspace> Lensman: Well I realize the law of diminishing returns is pretty stringent regarding the rocket formula, but we should be able to compensate *some* for a heavier booster by simply scaling it up.
[19:13] #knownspace> AlexA: Interesting cryptic comment by Armadillo about their recent 'boosted hops'
[19:13] #knownspace> nedry: yeah. should be... dennis@cortex-media.info
[19:16] #knownspace> Lensman: Do you have it now, Mark?
[19:16] #knownspace> AlexA: Quote:
[19:17] #knownspace> AlexA: Oops
[19:17] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, it's a *short* comment anyway! : )
[19:18] #knownspace> nedry: got it. that's much better!
[19:18] #knownspace> Lensman: "Boosted hops" means what? Trying for altitude?
[19:18] #knownspace> AlexA: Anyway that's the first time they've with- held data for commercial reasons
[19:18] #knownspace> Lensman: Mark, *I* think it's much better also.
[19:19] #knownspace> AlexA: Details here: http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home/News?news_id=369
[19:19] #knownspace> AlexA: 1500 m so far
[19:19] #knownspace> Lensman: Alex: Actually I think AA kept mum about its development of a rocket for the Rocket Racing League until RRL announced it.
[19:20] #knownspace> AlexA: True.
[19:21] #knownspace> Lensman: That brings up the AA News Archive pages, nothing specific.
[19:21] #knownspace> nedry: updated. much better
[19:21] #knownspace> AlexA: If you follow above link they say they learnt something interesting but won't share
[19:23] #knownspace> AlexA: Specific section is here: http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home/News?news_id=369#MoreHops
[19:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanx Alex!
[19:28] #knownspace> Lensman: Mark: Between the two of us, I think we make one good or at least decent functional webmaster. : )
[19:30] #knownspace> Lensman: Speaking of which... did you find anything for interrupting a slide show with a pause for user input? Would it be easier to pause after every slide and then re-draw the screen using the next slide? I know there's a way to re-draw part of the screen with JavaScript.
[19:31] #knownspace> nedry: lenman -> absolutely!

[19:31] #knownspace> nedry: no, i can't find anything premade that will do that.
[19:31] #knownspace> AlexA: AA say they have a new Nasa contract building on previous work
[19:31] #knownspace> AlexA: I assume more methane work
[19:32] #knownspace> nedry: something could probably be modified... i guess. what excatly does he want? a button that says, press to continue?
[19:32] #knownspace> Lensman: Nothing on RRL since 02 Oct 09. Not sure if this thing's ever gonna get off the ground.
[19:34] #knownspace> Lensman: The guy wants a slide show which asks the user to "pick a card, any card", then pauses while the user makes his choice. That's it, doesn't matter what the input is, functionally it's a "press any key to continue" thing.
[19:35] #knownspace> Lensman: I don't know why we should have to re-invent the wheel... surely someone has done such a thing somewhere.
[19:35] #knownspace> Lensman: I could to it easily in pretty much any computer language I know, but unfortunately HTML and CSS aren't set up to run a program, just display a static image.
[19:38] #knownspace> nedry: that sounds like something you might do in flash
[19:38] #knownspace> AlexA: Armadillos 1st RRL plane has flown: http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home/News?news_id=369#AA-RRL_01
[19:38] #knownspace> nedry: i'll have another look.
[19:39] #knownspace> Lensman: They flew it at the Oshkosh air show, didn't they? Or was that using the motor by the other company?
[19:40] #knownspace> AlexA: 2nd plane taxi testing: http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home/News?news_id=369#AA-RRL_05
[19:42] #knownspace> AlexA: I don't think AA engined RRL planes have been to airshows yet
[19:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, again depending on my faulty memory, as I recall RRL had engines from two companies, and the other company got theirs developed first, but there were problems with it, because as soon as AA started supplying theirs, RRL said they were going to go with AA on an exclusive basis.
[19:44] #knownspace> AlexA: Ok I'm off to sleep
[19:44] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Good night
[19:44] #knownspace> AlexA: Goodnight all
[19:44] #knownspace> Lensman: Good night
[19:45] #knownspace> AlexA: Be seeing you : )
[19:45] #knownspace> Lensman: I am not a number!
[19:48] #knownspace> Lensman: Mark, I need some advice.
[19:49] #knownspace> nedry: okay
[19:50] #knownspace> Lensman: Someone sent me a scan of something Dan Alderson did, a mathematical analysis of Ringworld. Dan has passed on, so I can't ask him. Should I just go ahead and post the thing at my Niven site, or should I try to track down the editor of the fanzine it was originally published in and ask permission there, or what do you think I should do?
[19:51] #knownspace> nedry: I think you should try to find the fanzine people. If you can't, you should put it up with a message someplace saying you can't contact the fanzine owner, and if they are the fanzine owner, they should email you and tell you if they object.
[19:52] #knownspace> Lensman: The thing was originally published in an APA at a WorldCon, so I'm not even sure it's appropriate to ask the editor. Apas are essentially a bundle of self-published small fanzines... so technically the editor would have been Dan himself.
[19:52] #knownspace> nedry: that's what I would do. What are they going to do at worst? Send you a take down letter.
[19:53] #knownspace> Lensman: Well, I guess it wouldn't hurt to try to find out who the editor was.
[19:53] #knownspace> nedry: * My opinon doesn't represent any sort of legal advise. I've never had anyone object to anything on larryniven.org
[19:53] #knownspace> nedry: advice
[19:53] #knownspace> Lensman: In fact, I'm friends with a very good source in fanzine fandom.
[19:54] #knownspace> Lensman: I wasn't asking legal advice... this is an ethics concern.
[19:54] #knownspace> nedry: cool. I wish I could find my mother's old fanzine collection. I bet my dad threw it away.
[19:55] #knownspace> nedry: ethically, as far as I am concerned, if it's out of a fanzine, you can't find the repponsible party, and you aren't making any money off it, i dont' see the problem.
[19:55] #knownspace> nedry: I can't type tonight.
[19:56] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: I'm with Mark Nedry. Put it up with the explanation; author is dead, no infringement intended, say where it was first published.
[19:57] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: Lensman
[19:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Yes, well ordinarily I would definitely ask the editor, but for an APA I'm not so sure. I mean, if I was the one who edited the APA... which in this case, merely means collating and (probably) stapling it together, my response would be "That does not belong to me, I can't give you permission, ask the guy who made it."
[19:57] #knownspace> Lensman: Thanks for your input guys.
[19:57] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: I would not include the last part of Nedry's disclaimer, asking them to writer you and you'll take it down
[19:57] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: why give them ideas or ask for trouble?
[19:58] #knownspace> nedry: yeah, i guess if they are motivated, they'll write to you anyway.
[19:58] #knownspace> nedry: : -)
[19:58] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: yah, I'd only include the facts of the case
[19:59] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: otherwise you'll end up with a burned and hairy hand
[20:00] #knownspace> Lensman: That sort of "Tell me if I've done something wrong" sounds pretty lame to me. I've seen it done, too. If you're gonna violate copyright, then I think you shouldn't try to pretend it's "okay" as long as nobody complains! If I'm gonna be a thief, then at least I should be honest about it. : )
[20:00] #knownspace> Lensman: Fred, I actually get that reference.
[20:02] #knownspace> Lensman: One of my very favorite TV shows.
[20:02] #knownspace> SeanS: yo fred
[20:04] #knownspace> Lensman: Harry, Harry, here is your answer true / You *are* crazy, if you think I'll marry you! / If you can't afford a carriage / There won't be any marriage / And I'll be hanged if I'll be banged / On a bicycle built, on a bicycle built, on a bicycle built for two.
[20:13] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: hey SeanS
[20:13] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: or
[20:13] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: SeanS, hey
[20:14] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[20:14] #knownspace> Fred: did that make a noise for you?
[20:14] #knownspace> Fred: doesn't seem to work here
[20:14] #knownspace> SeanS: nope, but using my name flashes the client window
[20:15] #knownspace> SeanS: xchat for those wondering
[20:16] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I was using xchat then the trial went out, i think.
[20:16] #knownspace> SeanS: xchat on linux is completely free
[20:16] #knownspace> SeanS: winblows version is trial i think
[20:17] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Windows
[20:17] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Is what i am using.
[20:17] #knownspace> SeanS: thats what i typed... WinBlows. ;)
[20:17] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yes. It is.
[20:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I tried to download mirc, and it failed. I then downloaded xchat...
[20:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper: And i saw that. And i agree!
[20:18] #knownspace> SeanS: fred is probably using some massive sparcstation or something
[20:18] #knownspace> Fred: fred just clicked the links on larry niven org
[20:18] #knownspace> Fred: opened a java chat in safari
[20:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Thats the way to do it!
[20:19] #knownspace> Lensman: I used to use mIRC. Had some problems figuring out how to configure it. I'm now using ChatZilla, am very happy with it.
[20:19] #knownspace> Fred: and then an erisBETA in another tab to see the difference
[20:19] #knownspace> SeanS: yep... typing irc.larryniven.org opens the flash. erisbeta
[20:20] #knownspace> SeanS: so what differences do you see?
[20:24] #knownspace> SeanS: hope my download hasn't slowed the server down
[20:30] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What are you downloading?
[20:30] #knownspace> CCulpepper: If i may ask.
[20:30] #knownspace> SeanS: a few movies. dont tell anyone
[20:31] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Tell anyone what? ;)
[20:32] #knownspace> SeanS: running at less than 800K/s. traffic must be building up on my local loop
[20:32] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What?
[20:33] #knownspace> SeanS: cable internet runs on local nodes
[20:33] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Oh. I get it now.
[20:33] #knownspace> SeanS: i have had mine pretty much to myself for years. now it looks like i am starting to share bandwidth in high traffic times
[20:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: That sucks
[20:34] #knownspace> SeanS: usually, i run at 1 megabyte a sec
[20:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Thats fast.
[20:35] #knownspace> SeanS: still plenty to host the server and do vnc stuff as well as downloads
[20:36] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yeah. The irc server cant take up that much bandwidth, right?
[20:36] #knownspace> SeanS: 8 meg connection. runs me 47 bucks a month. fastest available in the area
[20:36] Dan has joined #knownspace
[20:36] #knownspace> SeanS: nah.. text like this is nothing
[20:36] #knownspace> Dan: Anyone ho,e?
[20:36] #knownspace> SeanS: yo dan
[20:36] #knownspace> SeanS: called you earlier
[20:37] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Nice
[20:37] #knownspace> Dan: Got home from work an hour ago and only just realized it was Chat Saturday.
[20:38] #knownspace> SeanS: figured you were at work and not actually screening me out. ;)
[20:38] #knownspace> Dan: Lyn says she was busy and couldn't answer the phone.
[20:38] #knownspace> SeanS: no worries
[20:39] #knownspace> SeanS: back up to 960K/s plus
[20:39] #knownspace> Dan: How did the chat go today?
[20:39] #knownspace> SeanS: larry was in, as you know
[20:40] #knownspace> SeanS: mentioned new works in progress
[20:40] #knownspace> Dan: Sorry I missed him.
[20:40] #knownspace> SeanS: works in progress\
[20:40] #knownspace> Dan: Yes?
[20:41] #knownspace> SeanS: <Larry> currently working on: proofing "Stars and Gods" (a collection), "The Moon Maze Game" with Steven Barnes, "Ludifer's Anvil" with Jerry Pournelle, "The Bowl of Heaven" with Gregory Benford, and some anthologists are hoping for stories.
[20:41] #knownspace> SeanS: getting there
[20:42] #knownspace> Dan: I didn't realize you were listing them. I thought you were just excited, LOL!
[20:42] CCulpepper has joined #knownspace
[20:42] #knownspace> SeanS: just had to scroll up a bunch
[20:43] #knownspace> Dan: Work was a tad disapointing today, then it got rough in the last 3 hours. I'm still a bit slow on the uptake. Beer is helping.
[20:44] #knownspace> SeanS: sipping on a bit of wine here... dont have much
[20:44] #knownspace> SeanS: should of gone and gottren some more
[20:45] #knownspace> Dan: Too late now.
[20:45] #knownspace> SeanS: julie is sober
[20:45] #knownspace> Dan: Ah! That is a different proposition.
[20:46] #knownspace> SeanS: julie said fuck that... she is watching the breakfast club
[20:47] #knownspace> Fred: lol
[20:47] #knownspace> Dan: About 5 PM I discovered that it is possible to dislocate one's shoulder just by working very hard. Popped back into place about 45 minutes later. Hurt a bit, though.
[20:47] #knownspace> SeanS: maybe i can talk her into a white castle run at 1am
[20:47] #knownspace> SeanS: ouch
[20:48] #knownspace> Fred: man, only white castle here is the frozen stuff at Safeway
[20:48] #knownspace> SeanS: sucks for you... i have one across town
[20:48] #knownspace> Dan: Yeah, but at least I didn't have to fill out an accident report and see how the company proceeded to make it my fault.
[20:50] #knownspace> SeanS: i hear ya. medical bills coming in and the best advice i have gotten is ignore them and look in as couple of months
[20:50] #knownspace> SeanS: in a not in as
[20:51] #knownspace> Dan: Yep.
[20:52] #knownspace> Dan: I haven't told Lyn, she'd just worry. I'm fine now.
[20:52] #knownspace> SeanS: julie is still treating me with kit gloves
[20:53] #knownspace> Dan: That'll wear off, sooner or later. : )
[20:53] #knownspace> SeanS: tis 6 weeks tomorrow night
[20:54] #knownspace> SeanS: should be heading to phys ther after thurs doc visit
[20:54] #knownspace> SeanS: i hope anyway
[20:54] #knownspace> Dan: That's a good sign, actually.
[20:55] #knownspace> SeanS: very good sign
[20:55] #knownspace> SeanS: will walk into therapy and beg for them to hurt me
[20:56] #knownspace> Dan: Means the doctor is through with you, but you still have insurance money for them to milk.
[20:56] #knownspace> SeanS: i have blue cross blue shield. no worries
[20:56] #knownspace> Dan: Good!
[20:57] #knownspace> SeanS: just have to make them pay up... like any insurance company
[20:58] #knownspace> Dan: Indeed.
[20:59] #knownspace> Dan: Time for another beer. BRB, going to the fridge.
[20:59] #knownspace> SeanS: k
[21:03] #knownspace> Dan: Back.
[21:03] #knownspace> SeanS: k
[21:05] #knownspace> Fred: can you afford BC/BS? Mine is up to $3400/quarter
[21:05] #knownspace> SeanS: bc/bs?
[21:06] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: blue cross blue shield
[21:06] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: suddenly I can't type into the java window : \
[21:07] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: and that's with like a $2500 deductible
[21:07] #knownspace> Dan: I found a huge cashe of e-books on my computer in a file installed by an e-book cd I bought a couple of years ago. Loads of stuff I didn't know I had.
[21:07] #knownspace> SeanS: my rich dad pays it for me... in return, i captain his boat as well as other things
[21:07] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: cool!
[21:08] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: my mom is paying mine so I can be her full time caregiver
[21:08] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: I'm sure we'll run afoul of IRS on it at some point
[21:09] #knownspace> Fred: working now
[21:09] #knownspace> Fred: weird
[21:09] #knownspace> SeanS: i hear ya. standard captain rate is 200 bucks a day plus the owner pays all day to day shit like fuel and food
[21:10] #knownspace> SeanS: booze comes out of pay
[21:10] #knownspace> Fred: yeeks
[21:11] #knownspace> Fred: Dan: cool about the books
[21:11] #knownspace> SeanS: well... thats standard but working for a parent is a little different
[21:11] #knownspace> Fred: yep
[21:11] #knownspace> SeanS: when onboard, i dont pay for booze
[21:12] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: on the other hand I'm on duty 24/365.25
[21:12] #knownspace> SeanS: going to work with neil to put pics on my so far unused website
[21:12] #knownspace> Dan: Some are PDFs, some are .lit files, and some are just plain .txt. Nearly 2000 titles in all.
[21:12] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: ah, excellent that you can access them
[21:13] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: was afraid they might be some reader format requiring special hardware
[21:13] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: on the other hand, it turns out they're all harlequin romances, with fabio on the cover : )
[21:13] #knownspace> Dan: It was a .zip archive I never looked at when I installed the e-books I bought.
[21:14] #knownspace> SeanS: anything is viewable if you have a patch on your eye and a bird on the shoulder
[21:15] #knownspace> Dan: No, SF&F, History, Philosophy, Military manuals, etc.
[21:16] #knownspace> Dan: A really oddball collection of stuff.
[21:17] #knownspace> SeanS: just making a general statement
[21:17] #knownspace> Dan: I understand. I do own an eyepatch and a mechanical parrot. LOL!
[21:18] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I remember an old program that parrot-ified your voive and showed a talking parrot.
[21:19] #knownspace> SeanS: facebook does it if you select pirate for language
[21:19] #knownspace> Dan: Did that one come bundled with a Sound Blaster sound card?
[21:20] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I dont remember.. It was on my dads old dos machine.
[21:20] #knownspace> Dan: I remember something like it.
[21:20] #knownspace> SeanS: eliza?
[21:21] #knownspace> CCulpepper: eliza as in the pathetic attempt at a computer having a conversation?
[21:21] #knownspace> SeanS: just wondering
[21:21] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I dont think so.
[21:21] #knownspace> SeanS: and eliza was awesome for the day.
[21:21] #knownspace> CCulpepper: It might have come with a sound card. I was really young, 3-6
[21:22] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Eliza was alright.
[21:23] #knownspace> Dan: I remember someting like that on one of my old computers, with Sound Blaster sound cards. Either the 386 or the Pentium 1.
[21:23] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I dont know what type of computer it was, it ran dos and win3.1 and was really big.
[21:23] #knownspace> Dan: Sounds like either a 386 or a 486.
[21:24] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: I remember getting in an arguement with a guy who said he'd never own a Mac because you couldn't just go down to Staples and buy a SoundBlaster™ card for it.
[21:24] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Yeah, a little bit before my time.
[21:26] #knownspace> SeanS: i had a soundblaster in my iigs
[21:27] #knownspace> Dan: : )
[21:28] #knownspace> SeanS: have a soundblaster in this box. dont really know where i am going with this
[21:29] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: it was just one of those "this may be the stupidest person on the face of the Earth, perhaps we should shoot him" conversations
[21:29] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: bonus points if you can identify the quote
[21:29] #knownspace> Dan: LOL!
[21:29] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Douglas adams?
[21:30] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: nope
[21:30] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Darn. That sounded like him..
[21:30] #knownspace> SeanS: hmm
[21:30] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: heh
[21:30] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: clue: movie
[21:30] #knownspace> SeanS: i know tht q
[21:30] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Disqualification for google?
[21:31] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: absolutely
[21:31] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: if you're gonna ask, you could just ask me : )
[21:31] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Do we get questions?
[21:31] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: sure
[21:31] #knownspace> Dan: It sounds like a John Cleese line, but I don't recognise it.
[21:31] #knownspace> SeanS: i know the quote
[21:31] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: not cleese
[21:31] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: can you cite the source?
[21:31] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Is it modern? (>2000)?

[21:31] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: no
[21:32] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: 20th Century
[21:32] #knownspace> SeanS: if i wasnt drinking it would pop right in my head
[21:32] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: heh
[21:32] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Um... Was it a major movie?
[21:32] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: I really didn't think it was a stump the bander
[21:33] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: more major than minor
[21:33] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: it's not an obscure movie, and you'd recognize the names of the cast
[21:34] #knownspace> SeanS: dont tell me
[21:34] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Did it have harrison ford in it?
[21:34] #knownspace> SeanS: tip of my brain
[21:34] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: no
[21:35] #knownspace> SeanS: can i go now
[21:35] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Can we get a decade?
[21:35] #knownspace> SeanS: are we done
[21:35] #knownspace> SeanS: trek 6
[21:35] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: LOL, no
[21:36] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: Heck, I'll even give yuo a year. 1986
[21:36] #knownspace> SeanS: same lines
[21:37] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Is it sf?
[21:38] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: no
[21:40] #knownspace> SeanS: coneheads
[21:40] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: from the same film: "I've been kidnapped by K-Mart! "
[21:40] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: no coneheads. I'd consider that SF.
[21:40] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Nope, havent seen it.
[21:40] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: "Ruthless People"
[21:40] #knownspace> SeanS: something i dont ever remember seeing
[21:41] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: Helen Slater, Danny DeVito, Bette Midler, Judge Reinhold
[21:41] #knownspace> SeanS: reuthless poeople
[21:41] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: "I wonder where Ruth is?"
[21:42] #knownspace> SeanS: the further adventures of nick danger 3rd eye
[21:42] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: hah! got that in one!
[21:43] #knownspace> SeanS: got in in mp3
[21:43] #knownspace> SeanS: and that one was extremely obscure
[21:43] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: not if you've seen it it wasn't : P
[21:44] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: yeah, Nick Danger was a free DL from iTunes IIRC
[21:44] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: whole damn side of the album
[21:44] #knownspace> Dan: Firesign Theater?
[21:44] #knownspace> SeanS: yep
[21:44] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: yep
[21:45] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: or, what SeanS said
[21:45] #knownspace> SeanS: i havent 2watched ruthless people for years
[21:46] #knownspace> Dan: I never got to hear much of them, but "We're all Bozos on this bus" seems to have stuck in my mind.
[21:46] #knownspace> SeanS: 1 fingered typing sucks
[21:46] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: I always preferred the "Congress of Wonders"
[21:46] #knownspace> SeanS: nick danger is awesome
[21:47] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: they did "Star Trip" and "The Stoned Ranger"
[21:47] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: and "Catch it and you Keep It"
[21:47] #knownspace> SeanS: dfont have those
[21:47] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: a friend of mine had a 4 track (!) with a mix of Firesign and Congress on it
[21:47] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: so we were never sure what was what
[21:47] #knownspace> Dan: Don't crush that dwarf- Hand me the pliers!
[21:47] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: yes!
[21:48] #knownspace> Dan: Waiting on the electrician, or someone like him.
[21:49] #knownspace> SeanS: ?
[21:49] #knownspace> Dan: I remember the album titles, but Bozos is the only one I really remember hearing, and we were pretty buzzed at the time.
[21:50] #knownspace> Dan: That was back during college.
[21:52] #knownspace> SeanS: i can send you the nick danger thing if fred hasnt already done it
[21:52] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: I have not
[21:53] #knownspace> SeanS: dan, pop into skype to make it easy on me
[21:55] #knownspace> Dan: Skype activated/
[21:56] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: anybody want a collection of David Hasselhoff music videos, while we're sharing?
[21:57] #knownspace> Fred: <<crickets>>

[21:58] #knownspace> Dan: Sean is locating the file.
[22:01] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: well, if you do
[22:01] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: http://files.me.com/anim8rfsk/by1as7
[22:01] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: HoffFest
[22:04] #knownspace> Dan: Sorry, not that much of a Hoff fan. Knightrider was fine, but I didn't enjoy his singing.
[22:05] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: I laugh with him. His videos are a hoot.
[22:07] #knownspace> SeanS: danger uploading
[22:10] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: I can't tell if Nick Danger is still free on iTunes or not. Since I already have it, it won't show me the price
[22:11] #knownspace> SeanS: i have never used itunes
[22:11] #knownspace> SeanS: dan has the ep
[22:12] #knownspace> Dan: Yay!
[22:12] #knownspace> SeanS: tis funny as ....................................
[22:16] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: last nightime shuttle launch ever tonight
[22:16] #knownspace> CCulpepper: When?
[22:17] #knownspace> SeanS: 4:39am eastern
[22:17] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: http://gizmodo.com/5465914/stay-up-late-tonight-to-watch-the-last-nighttime-shuttle-launch-ever
[22:17] #knownspace> CCulpepper: How far north do you think youd see it?
[22:18] #knownspace> SeanS: dont know. i have nasa tv
[22:18] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: check the url
[22:18] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: has a visibility map
[22:18] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: it's *way* north. like to Canada
[22:18] #knownspace> SeanS: i am to far mw to see it visually
[22:19] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: mw?
[22:19] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Well im in mass... Ill wait for the map...
[22:19] #knownspace> SeanS: north west. sorry
[22:19] #knownspace> SeanS: i am in ky
[22:20] #knownspace> SeanS: and one fingered typing
[22:20] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ah
[22:21] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: mass is well within the viewing area
[22:22] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I think i might... Let me get mermission...
[22:22] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Permission
[22:23] #knownspace> SeanS: in mass, i very much doubt you can see it other than tv
[22:23] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: map says you can see it all the way to the north end of maine
[22:24] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: because of it's trajectory
[22:24] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: he won't be able to see SRB, but he should be able to see main engine cut off
[22:25] #knownspace> SeanS: the only time i ever saw it live was when i was in orlando
[22:25] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Ill just get up at 3:45 anyways... I like the night. And if nasa is launching it should be clear for stargaxing.
[22:26] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: main engine is at T+8min
[22:41] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: Something doesn't parse in this statement from a CNN article: "Volunteers are taking to the streets of Miami, Florida, to provide alternatives for teens working as prostitutes on Super Bowl weekend."
[22:42] #knownspace> Dan: Oh, amateur hour. I see.
[22:42] #knownspace> Dan: : )
[22:43] #knownspace> SeanS: heh
[22:49] #knownspace> CCulpepper: What are you doing for superbowl?
[22:51] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: avoiding it
[22:51] #knownspace> Dan: Same here.
[22:51] #knownspace> SeanS: party at my friends house donwn the road'
[22:51] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Why?
[22:52] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: I've no interest in sport, and less in sport on television. In past years I've watched the ads or halftime show, but even they aren't calling to me this year
[22:52] #knownspace> SeanS: i dont give a crap about the teams playing... but i enjoy the fun with friends
[22:53] #knownspace> CCulpepper: I will probably lurk in the basement playing pool. Me mums having a party.
[22:53] #knownspace> SeanS: pool table here. pool table at j's where the party is.
[22:54] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: no pool table here
[22:54] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: there's a pool though
[22:54] #knownspace> CCulpepper: WEll i think i might go to sleep. Good night!
[22:54] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: set your alarm!
[22:54] #knownspace> SeanS: i have gotten decent at one armed pool but no where near as good as i am with both hands
[22:54] #knownspace> CCulpepper: Did. Hopefully the phone is loud enough...
[22:56] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: I hope I can find a channel showing it
[22:56] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: usually it's on Fox News, but I think they're infomercials overnight on the weekend
[22:58] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: yep, all infomercials. snarl.
[23:00] #knownspace> SeanS: i get nasa tv on 213
[23:01] #knownspace> SeanS: lo def... figured they would pony up for hi def
[23:03] #knownspace> Dan: Well, gonna go watch some cartoons. Later, folks!
[23:03] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: night
[23:03] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: they killed NASA here years ago
[23:04] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: and our HD is all infomercials
[23:04] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: oddly, SD fox isn't. But it's a rerun of Geraldo, so they won't do coverage there
[23:05] #knownspace> SeanS: i am on dish
[23:05] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: ah
[23:06] #knownspace> SeanS: liocal cable seems to suck
[23:06] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: yep
[23:07] #knownspace> SeanS: i have a lot of hi def.. friend that has hi def cable says he has 8
[23:08] #knownspace> SeanS: i have like 80
[23:09] #knownspace> SeanS: but i get net from the same casble company and it is fairly rock solid
[23:29] Xenovalent has joined #knownspace
[23:50] #knownspace> Fred_via_Flash: Xeno