Chat Log: Feburary 7th 2009

Feb 07 12:08:26 * LouisWu (~LouisWu@24.187.170.121) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 12:09:30 * LouisWu has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Feb 07 13:55:42 * Lensman_free (~lensman@24.124.118.241) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 14:20:07 * Fred (~Fred@68.3.85.244) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 14:20:22 <Fred> yeeks, light turnout

Feb 07 14:28:16 <Fred> but at least you're quiet

Feb 07 14:29:12 <Lensman_free> Well, it's not the official start time yet.

Feb 07 14:29:19 * Lensman_free is now known as Lensman

Feb 07 14:31:55 * Hippy (~captlychee@122.104.108.35) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 14:32:11 <Hippy> Afternoon, Lens

Feb 07 14:32:19 <Hippy> Oh, and Fred

Feb 07 14:44:43 <Lensman> Hello Hippy!

Feb 07 14:44:56 <Lensman> I'm multitasking.

Feb 07 14:46:53 <Hippy> As am I - of all things, writing haiku about ballet. . .

Feb 07 14:53:51 * Jim (~chatzilla@72.169.212.30) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 14:54:13 <Jim> do we have a topic?

Feb 07 14:55:33 <Hippy> Not as yet, Jim

Feb 07 14:55:36 <Hippy> How's it going?

Feb 07 14:55:55 <Jim> ok, gee your up early

Feb 07 14:57:04 <Hippy> Yeah, it's too hot to sleep

Feb 07 14:57:26 <Hippy> The sky this morning has got all this grey stuff in it, and last night water fell out of the air

Feb 07 14:57:40 <Hippy> We used to have words for those. . .what were they?

Feb 07 15:01:32 <SeanS> global warming? nah thats the white stuff that falls

Feb 07 15:02:13 <Hippy> Yes, I've been hearing that the weather even in Florida is a bit breezy

Feb 07 15:03:27 <SeanS> 61F and a bit breezy today here in kentucky

Feb 07 15:04:22 <Hippy> Oh, for such a temperature! 108F in Ballarat yeserday and wind such as only a chili addict could describe :)

Feb 07 15:04:28 <Lensman> Hippy, is the annual rainfall really that low where you live, or are you just seeing how tall a tale we'll swallow? :)

Feb 07 15:05:01 <Hippy> Well, it hasn't rained in a while and we're at the five year mark for the current drought

Feb 07 15:05:16 <Lensman> Wow.

Feb 07 15:05:26 <Hippy> Actually, I don't know what the stats are - I should look them up

Feb 07 15:05:45 <Hippy> Hence the lake has dried up and it caught fire last month

Feb 07 15:05:54 <Lensman> Let me look at my atlas. Just where do you live, exactly?

Feb 07 15:06:13 <Hippy> I live in Lake Wendouree, which is a suburb of Ballarat

Feb 07 15:06:35 <Hippy> In fact, you can see my house on 'street view' on Google Maps

Feb 07 15:06:41 <Lensman> Okay... less exactly. :)

Feb 07 15:07:06 <Hippy> Er, well, we're 60 miles NNW of Melbourne

Feb 07 15:07:14 <Lensman> Ah, thanx.

Feb 07 15:09:20 <Lensman> I do see Ballarat on my atlas. Not the driest part of Oz, I take it? The driest being the western interior?

Feb 07 15:11:41 <Lensman> BTW I'm getting a new(er) computer today. Something that will allow me to run WinXP easily, and I'm also upgrading to a DVD burner. In other words, I'm joining the 21st Century. :)

Feb 07 15:12:12 * George (~George@71.242.181.107) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 15:12:16 <Hippy> http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/silo/rain_maps.cgi?map=contours&variable=totals&area=vic&period=cyear®ion=vic&time=latest

Feb 07 15:12:43 <George> Ah! Finally.

Feb 07 15:12:48 <Hippy> This is good to hear, Lens

Feb 07 15:12:53 <Hippy> Afternoon, George

Feb 07 15:13:18 <Hippy> That URL is for a rainfall map of the year to date. 2mm of rain for Ballarat in that time :)

Feb 07 15:13:19 <George> Greetings, all.

Feb 07 15:13:49 <Hippy> You won't know yourself, Lens. All the games you'll be able to play!

Feb 07 15:14:36 <Lensman> Well, it appears I am wrong. My tame computer geek's gf just called, they won't be coming to Laser Rangers today. But I should be getting a new "baby" soon.

Feb 07 15:15:11 <Hippy> Well, for the sake of all that's sane in the world, don't give it a name

Feb 07 15:16:57 <Lensman> I dunno, naming a computer "Quit spying on me, you Peeping Tom!" might be fun. :)

Feb 07 15:17:11 <SeanS> hey George

Feb 07 15:17:36 <Hippy> It's just morally wrong to name a machine :)

Feb 07 15:17:46 <George> Hi, Sean

Feb 07 15:17:50 <Hippy> Okay, you have to for network purposes, but other than that. . .

Feb 07 15:17:59 <Lensman> But my computer geek asked me what to name it! :)

Feb 07 15:18:09 <SeanS> i named this one linux-media but that is more descriptive than anything else. linux machine in the media room

Feb 07 15:18:59 <George> Well, humans do tend to pass out unearned names like party favors!

Feb 07 15:19:05 <Lensman> Lotsa people used to name their cars and trucks. I guess that's less common today. And I think it was Dan'l Boone who named his rifle "Brown Bess".

Feb 07 15:19:06 <Hippy> Well, mine's called 'CaptLychee' but that's because. . .er. . .well, I had to call it something, Vista insisted

Feb 07 15:19:31 <Hippy> George, that's not a bad insight!

Feb 07 15:19:39 <Lensman> Well, if a computer should *earn* its name, I suppose I should initially dub it "Speaker to Networks".

Feb 07 15:19:43 <Hippy> What would Kzinti call their computers?

Feb 07 15:20:02 <SeanS> they would just call it by function as it is only a tool

Feb 07 15:20:15 <Hippy> 'Brown Bess' was the common name for the gun, Lens

Feb 07 15:20:37 <Lensman> Hippy: Quit steppin' on my mythology!

Feb 07 15:20:47 <Hippy> They name their ships, though

Feb 07 15:21:02 <George> I will confess I do tend to name my vehicles, but only for my own use; I never use those names in public like you might for a boat.

Feb 07 15:21:15 <Hippy> No stepping intended - it's just the Antipodean view :)

Feb 07 15:22:54 <George> I think I named our computer Deep Blue, but I never use the name. I just curse at it a lot.

Feb 07 15:23:08 <Lensman> I "named" my first car "Yellow Flitter"; a sub-compact named in honor of the smallest starships in the Lensman series; but like George, only for my own use. I didn't put a name-plate on it or the like.

Feb 07 15:24:03 <Hippy> This all started with Jerry Pournelle naming his computers - too cutesy for my taste.

Feb 07 15:24:23 <Lensman> Hippy: Seriously; "Brown Bess" was a synonym for any gun? Or for the Kentucky Long Rifle? Or what?

Feb 07 15:25:08 <Jim> The British muskets in the American Revolution were known as Brown Bess's.

Feb 07 15:25:48 <Hippy> It was the common name of the unrifled guns that the British used in the REvolutionary War, so far as I know. Of coure, many Americans had them too - I mena, reblels because they had got them from Britain

Feb 07 15:25:59 <Lensman> If that was also applied to Kentucky long rifles, then it sounds pretty generic.

Feb 07 15:26:12 <SeanS> bessie was the name for davy crocketts rifle if i remember right... could just be the movie the alamo tho

Feb 07 15:26:39 <SeanS> blunderbuss is what i always thought the unrifled guns were called

Feb 07 15:26:55 <Lensman> What baffles me is the term "rifled musket". Isn't that an oxymoron? Or does that indicate a musket that was retrofitted with rifling?

Feb 07 15:26:58 <Hippy> There were also arquebuses

Feb 07 15:27:01 <George> Don't soldiers frequently name their guns, even today? I mean, maybe not their personal gun, but giving names to models or types of guns?

Feb 07 15:27:26 <Jim> The term blunderbuss is used to denote 17th century shotguns.

Feb 07 15:27:44 <Lensman> Arquebus... wheel lock... matchlock... flintlock... lots of different types of handguns.

Feb 07 15:27:48 <Hippy> I thought 'musket' referred to muzzle loading guns

Feb 07 15:28:12 <SeanS> thats what i am thinking hippy

Feb 07 15:28:23 <Lensman> The Kentucky long rifle (and similar rifles) were muzzle-loaders.

Feb 07 15:28:24 <Jim> Musket refers to any un-rifled gun.

Feb 07 15:28:49 <George> Ah, hence the term "musket ball" as opposed to bullet.

Feb 07 15:28:52 <Hippy> I love this 2nd amendment talk!

Feb 07 15:29:31 <Lensman> That can be confusing. The "Minie ball" was a bullet-shaped bullet.

Feb 07 15:29:53 <George> But did it go in "rifled", um, rifles?

Feb 07 15:30:09 <Jim> the minie ball did

Feb 07 15:30:20 <Lensman> I'm pretty sure the Minie ball (hope I'm spelling that right) was only used in rifles.

Feb 07 15:30:32 <George> That sounds right.

Feb 07 15:31:09 <Lensman> Before the Minie there were balls which had projections on opposite sides which would be forced into the rifle grooves.

Feb 07 15:31:58 <George> Hadn't heard that before, but it sounds like a good intermediate step.

Feb 07 15:32:31 <Hippy> Neither had I, but it sounds like those projections would shear off if you didn't load the gun exactly right

Feb 07 15:32:48 <Lensman> If you're interested in early rifle combat, I highly recommend Bernard Cornwell's "Sharpe" series, about a British rifleman. Hornblower on land, sort of.

Feb 07 15:32:55 <Hippy> Imagine if the Confederacy had had AK47s. Someone should write a story. . .

Feb 07 15:33:23 <Lensman> Hippy: It's called /The Guns of the South/, by Turtledove.

Feb 07 15:33:34 <Jim> Didn't Newt Gingrich do that? :-)

Feb 07 15:33:35 <Hippy> Indeed it is. I love that book!

Feb 07 15:33:35 <Lensman> And my favorite Turtledove, too.

Feb 07 15:33:52 <Lensman> Sorry, irony was not noted.

Feb 07 15:34:04 <George> I admit, with some reluctance, that I watched "Rambo" last week. One special feature was an interesting piece on the weapons used in the film. They brought in enough guns and ammo for a small war, and used all the ammo!

Feb 07 15:34:14 <Hippy> It's hard to do - there's no emoticon for irony

Feb 07 15:34:47 <Lensman> Hippy: :D or (vbg) will do.

Feb 07 15:34:51 <Hippy> Sounds like a good policy in Iraq :)

Feb 07 15:35:18 <Hippy> So that's what :D means! (no irony or sarcasm)

Feb 07 15:35:37 <Lensman> I deplore the use of the word "porn" to indicate excessive use of any trop in a film, but for Rambo, "War porn" does seem appropriate... that was taked to obscene levels.

Feb 07 15:35:51 <Hippy> I have a friend who signs like that, and since her last name begins with D I just assumed she was using a signature

Feb 07 15:36:13 <Lensman> I translate :D as "

Feb 07 15:36:21 <Lensman> "grinning so hard your teeth show"

Feb 07 15:37:08 <Hippy> Then I shall change my name to 'Arren', but still spell it the way I do now, so people think I'm really happy :D

Feb 07 15:37:37 <George> Yeah, the gore in Rambo was perfectly realistic. Not overdone, but didn't need to be soooo . . . accurate. I mean, they were using a 50mm anti-aircraft gun on people.

Feb 07 15:38:13 <Hippy> Sounds like one hell of a movie

Feb 07 15:38:27 <Jim> not really

Feb 07 15:38:29 <SeanS> we were soldiers was good that way as well

Feb 07 15:38:42 <Lensman> Maybe the gore was realistic... but didn't he carry a 50 caliber machine gun-- or was it a minigun electric cannon-- and use it like a submachine gun?

Feb 07 15:39:10 <Lensman> Oh, wait... was "Rambo" re-made? Are we talking about the original?

Feb 07 15:39:21 <SeanS> rambo's gun of choice is the M-50 belt fed machine gun. 30 caliber

Feb 07 15:40:05 <George> The latest, and final, Ramboo film. Sly had something to say about John Rambo, about war's effect on the people who have to fight them, and he succeeded. In the meantime, yeah, it was bloody and nasty.

Feb 07 15:40:25 <Lensman> Belt-fed machine gun, that's what I thought. Correct me if I'm wrong, but *no one* actually carries that and fires it from the hip in real combat.

Feb 07 15:40:45 <Jim> Lensman, you are correct

Feb 07 15:41:00 <George> They had planned to have Rambo pick up this huge AA gun, but he couldn't move well enough with it!

Feb 07 15:41:32 <Hippy> Well, he's in his late 60's

Feb 07 15:41:33 <Lensman> I did like "The Dogs of War". That mini-grenade launcher made a great one-man army!

Feb 07 15:42:00 <Hippy> Jesse Ventura in 'Predator' - now there was a gun!

Feb 07 15:42:07 <George> Closest gun like that you can carry is the minigun (sp?), isn't it?

Feb 07 15:42:14 <George> That gun in Predator.

Feb 07 15:42:28 <SeanS> thats 20mm i think

Feb 07 15:42:47 <George> Yeah, I think it is.

Feb 07 15:42:51 <Lensman> How is it fed? Magazines?

Feb 07 15:42:57 <Hippy> They mentioned someting like 'the ammo would've weighed a quarter of a ton' but that didn't both Jesse

Feb 07 15:43:08 <Hippy> I mean, Governor Ventura

Feb 07 15:43:37 <George> http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Machine-Guns/GE_XM214_Minigun.htm

Feb 07 15:43:38 <Hippy> The ammo was on a belt in 'Predator'

Feb 07 15:44:49 <George> Back with one or two thousand rounds.

Feb 07 15:45:00 <George> backpack, oops

Feb 07 15:46:19 <Lensman> Well, the article at the link George pointed to makes it out to be about as unrealistic as I thought it was. Ain't gonna be firing no electric cannon from the hip unless you're wearing power armor! But DARPA is working on the latter...

Feb 07 15:46:41 <Lensman> Or at least combat exoskeletons...

Feb 07 15:47:27 <Jim> Is Ed or Larry coming soon?

Feb 07 15:47:28 <Hippy> The problem with the Army is all the young recruits who grew up on 'Power Rangers'

Feb 07 15:48:21 <Jim> Blame Japan!

Feb 07 15:48:25 <Lensman> I haven't gotten any message from either, so *hopefully* they're coming. When Larry shows, it's generally around 1 PM Pacific time, which is 15 minutes away.

Feb 07 15:48:53 <Hippy> That gives me time for a cup of tea. Back in a bit

Feb 07 15:48:54 <Lensman> I thought it was "Blame Canada!" ? :D

Feb 07 15:49:22 <Jim> Can't blame Canada for the Power Rangers.

Feb 07 15:49:38 <Lensman> What about Captain Power?

Feb 07 15:49:47 <George> First time I saw Power Rangers, I thought, this crap will never make it! I cannot BELIEVE it's still around!

Feb 07 15:50:26 <Jim> Is Captain Power related to Captain Planet and the Planet-queers?

Feb 07 15:51:05 <George> Might be grandson of Prince Planet. Anyone else remember that one?

Feb 07 15:51:14 <Lensman> Nope.

Feb 07 15:51:43 <Lensman> Nobody else watched Captain Power? Tch.

Feb 07 15:52:11 <George> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Planet

Feb 07 15:52:38 <Hippy> I watched both Prince and Captain - yay, Captain. Kids from every continent - ha!

Feb 07 15:53:01 <Hippy> Prince Planet - will we ever see it on DVD?

Feb 07 15:53:18 <Lensman> http://20th.captainpower.com/

Feb 07 15:53:51 <Lensman> I was one of those adults who watched Captain Power. Yessir!

Feb 07 15:54:30 <Lensman> I confess I remember it only vaguely, but I do remember it was surprisingly adult-themed for a kid's show. Live action, too.

Feb 07 15:54:50 <Lensman> But then Power Rangers was also live action... sort of, anyway.

Feb 07 15:55:55 <George> Prince Planet DVD -- http://megostore.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=921&osCsid=76d14fb5b9f6e1add6249588a52a4167

Feb 07 15:56:13 <George> No guarantee on quality or availability.

Feb 07 15:57:08 * FlyingDragon (~Carol@64.91.142.144) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 15:57:14 <FlyingDragon> Hello!

Feb 07 15:57:21 <George> Greetings!

Feb 07 15:57:31 <FlyingDragon> was wondering if I missed all the fun!

Feb 07 15:57:48 <George> Nope. Been talking guns and toons.

Feb 07 15:57:52 <Hippy> Nope! It's just begun now you're here

Feb 07 15:58:03 <George> Hoping Larry will pop in shortly . . .

Feb 07 15:58:17 <FlyingDragon> If we don't start talking about something besides guns and toons, the fun with have to continue wtihout me.

Feb 07 15:58:24 <Jim> Too bad the other Carol could not come; we could have confuse a Carol on the chat

Feb 07 15:58:24 <FlyingDragon> Hippy, so sweet!

Feb 07 15:58:30 <Lensman> Hi Carol!

Feb 07 15:58:40 <FlyingDragon> Hello, lensman

Feb 07 15:58:45 <Jim> Carol!

Feb 07 15:58:48 <FlyingDragon> Jim!

Feb 07 15:58:58 <Hippy> <blush>

Feb 07 15:59:41 <FlyingDragon> We're going to have a knife throwing torunament. I usually only stick one or two per round. Loaned my knives to the head instructor,a nd after that I got in 5/5!

Feb 07 16:00:00 <FlyingDragon> I may accidnetly qualify for the big boys league, and get beaten by the good guys!

Feb 07 16:00:12 <SeanS> heh

Feb 07 16:00:28 <George> No wonder you don't wanna talk guns; you're a blade girl! :-)

Feb 07 16:00:33 <FlyingDragon> LOL!

Feb 07 16:00:47 <George> oooo, that's hot.

Feb 07 16:01:10 <Lensman> So the SF Book Club is already shipping /Escape from Hell/. Interesting, as it's not supposed to be released until Feb 17, at least according to Amazon.com

Feb 07 16:01:31 <FlyingDragon> We got a new archery target; several weeks and NO ONE had gotten a bullseye yet! WE're all hoping to be the first!

Feb 07 16:01:46 <Lensman> Carol: So what is the knife target?

Feb 07 16:01:48 <FlyingDragon> Goign to see Coraline this afternoon. You may all now be envious!

Feb 07 16:02:00 <Hippy> Blaze away at it with a minigun. Bullseyes are guaranteed

Feb 07 16:02:22 <Hippy> I was born envious, Carol

Feb 07 16:02:48 <George> Did you see the last "Top Gear", with the winter olympics? Maching guns don't work well for distance target shooting!

Feb 07 16:02:49 <FlyingDragon> Regulation is bigger than we have. four 12x2x10 boards, five targets wtih three rings, each ring three inches, have to throw in order. stickign is worth a point.

Feb 07 16:03:19 <Lensman> 3D stop motion. Has that ever been done before?

Feb 07 16:03:20 <FlyingDragon> If youget five bullseyes but miss the one you are supposed to aim for, it is five points.

Feb 07 16:03:48 <Hippy> Probably in the 50's, Lens

Feb 07 16:03:49 * EML (~EML@67.163.102.208) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 16:03:57 <EML> Hi, all!

Feb 07 16:03:59 <SeanS> ah, there is mr. Lerner

Feb 07 16:04:03 <Hippy> G'day, Ed

Feb 07 16:04:03 <Lensman> Welcome Ed!

Feb 07 16:04:08 <Jim> Ed!

Feb 07 16:04:15 <EML> Not too busy today, I see.

Feb 07 16:04:26 <George> Hi, Ed! Got "Fool's Experiments" today!

Feb 07 16:04:37 <EML> George: I hope you enjoy it.

Feb 07 16:04:59 <Fred> Hey Ed

Feb 07 16:05:01 <Fred> et al

Feb 07 16:05:02 <FlyingDragon> welcome ed

Feb 07 16:05:26 <EML> Was'sup today? We have a topic?

Feb 07 16:05:36 <Jim> nope

Feb 07 16:05:40 <Lensman> Poupourri, Ed.

Feb 07 16:05:48 <FlyingDragon> Lensman, what do they mean by 3-d wrt coraline? It just LOOKS more 3-d than ever before? It isn't the red green offset pictures.

Feb 07 16:05:55 <EML> Potpouri? That stinks :-)

Feb 07 16:06:08 <SeanS> har har ;)

Feb 07 16:06:10 <Jim> I watched BSG last night and the wrong guys won.

Feb 07 16:06:12 <FlyingDragon> I'm trying to get them to stop talking about guns and talka bout knives and arrows instead.

Feb 07 16:06:51 <Lensman> Carol: Well, I Googled "Coraline" and I got a link that said it was 3D. But maybe that's only for special showings.

Feb 07 16:07:14 <EML> NO BSG SPOILERS, PLEASE !!!!! I have it on my DVR to watch tonight.

Feb 07 16:07:23 <FlyingDragon> they SAY 3-D. But I haven't actually seen any evidence of it.

Feb 07 16:07:26 <Jim> ok

Feb 07 16:07:34 <Lensman> Jim: Well, I was rooting for the team that won.

Feb 07 16:07:46 <FlyingDragon> Anyone read COraline? Even my HUSBAND read it and wants to go!

Feb 07 16:07:58 <Jim> Lensman, not me

Feb 07 16:08:02 <EML> Nor I.

Feb 07 16:08:12 <Lensman> Not read it.

Feb 07 16:08:28 <EML> Has Larry been by today?

Feb 07 16:08:32 <FlyingDragon> It is short, a noveletter I believe. Scary and weird.....

Feb 07 16:08:33 <Lensman> Not yet.

Feb 07 16:08:35 <FlyingDragon> I just got here.

Feb 07 16:08:49 <FlyingDragon> Been doing Martial arts

Feb 07 16:09:41 <Lensman> Last week's BSG episode was one of the best of series. This week's was quite enjoyable.

Feb 07 16:10:15 <Hippy> I can't believe it's still on

Feb 07 16:10:28 <Hippy> Then again, so is 'Days of Our Lives' :)

Feb 07 16:10:30 <Lensman> Ed: So give us a topic! Any new stories out? Anything new on the "...of Worlds" front?

Feb 07 16:10:34 <EML> Last week's WAS excellent.

Feb 07 16:10:46 <SeanS> I havent watched it in quite some time

Feb 07 16:11:11 <Lensman> Well, I can't believe BSG lasted this long, either. One of those shows that is "Too good for television!"

Feb 07 16:11:26 <George> I could not get into BSG. Just . . . failed.

Feb 07 16:11:53 <EML> Lens: Larry and I are doing some background work for "Defier of" and "Triumph of" (both working titles). Too soon to talk about them, tho.

Feb 07 16:12:05 <FlyingDragon> cool!

Feb 07 16:12:05 <Hippy> What the? It's doing that again! Water is coming out of the sky!!

Feb 07 16:12:19 * FlyingDragon LOLs at Hippy!

Feb 07 16:12:47 <Lensman> Happens here occasionally, Hippy. Often enough not to be remarkable, even. :D

Feb 07 16:13:09 <Hippy> How do you handle it?

Feb 07 16:13:19 <EML> The latest new stuff in print was in the Jan/Feb 2009 Analog, a short-ish novelette called "Small Business."

Feb 07 16:13:34 <Lensman> Well, they make these things called "umbrellas"...

Feb 07 16:13:34 <Hippy> Of course, in the Winter I was complaining that that glowing thing in the sky meant the end of the world. Now I've had quite enough of the damn thing

Feb 07 16:14:07 <Hippy> I"ve seen those, Lens. Like a small roof on a spike.

Feb 07 16:14:12 <EML> Here in the Old Dominion (aka, Virginia), it's sunny and 64. Yea!

Feb 07 16:14:15 <FlyingDragon> Starting to hate winter. Hate beign sick all teh time. August is starting to look good!

Feb 07 16:14:31 * Hippy AFK for a second to check on laundry

Feb 07 16:15:22 <Lensman> I went to Books-a-Million the other day to pick up the reprint of /Inferno/ and Stirling's /In the Court of the Crimson King/ in paperback, but they had neither. :( So I picked up the latest Leonard Maltin's movie guide, and Stirling's /The Sunrise Lands/.

Feb 07 16:16:02 <SeanS> i am sending some clouds your way ed... from kentucky. been 61 but mainly overcast all day

Feb 07 16:16:25 <George> Yesterday it was 28, today 47, tomorrow 58.

Feb 07 16:16:48 <EML> Hi Sean. Yup, the prevailing winds are from Kentucky. (My wife grew up on the outskirts of Louisville.)

Feb 07 16:16:56 <FlyingDragon> Sean!

Feb 07 16:17:28 <George> Ed, there's a Celtic rock band I like named Coyote Run, out of Williamsburg VA, and they play at MarsCon. Do you know their work?

Feb 07 16:17:38 <Hippy> So nobody's in triple digits F except me?

Feb 07 16:17:51 <Lensman> I'm glad it warmed up some yesterday. It's been so cold that the air has been very dry inside the house-- our humidifier is woefully inadequare for the entire house. I developed a sinus infection, and even with antibiotics it's persisting. The more humid air is helping, tho.

Feb 07 16:17:53 <George> Hippy, are you in the Inferno?

Feb 07 16:18:09 <EML> George: I'm not familiar with them. Of course my taste in rock locked in with the Beatles.

Feb 07 16:18:19 <George> :-)

Feb 07 16:18:22 <Hippy> It felt like it yesterday, George

Feb 07 16:18:33 <Lensman> Hippy: Well I think you're only one of two antipodians that frequent this chat room, are you not?

Feb 07 16:18:34 <Jim> :-)

Feb 07 16:18:38 <Hippy> Today is a pleasant 75 or thereabouts at the moment

Feb 07 16:18:39 <FlyingDragon> The Beatles are really multi-generational. EVERYONE at least likes the Beatles.

Feb 07 16:18:40 <EML> yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away :-)

Feb 07 16:19:01 <FlyingDragon> Ed, did you like the Beatles movie? I was surprised at hoe well it went together.

Feb 07 16:19:02 <Lensman> Now it looks as though they're here to stay

Feb 07 16:19:07 <Jim> Sometimes a Kiwi shows up (Euan).

Feb 07 16:19:11 <Hippy> One of three, I think, Lens. I'm told that Ted Scribner comes on from time to time - and it's too early for Euan

Feb 07 16:19:17 <Lensman> That's the second one-- Euan.

Feb 07 16:19:34 <Fred> are new zealanders 'kiwis'?

Feb 07 16:19:40 <Lensman> Okay, I sit corrected. Not sure Ted is on my scorecard.

Feb 07 16:19:40 <SeanS> eddy is also from oz but doesnt speak very much

Feb 07 16:19:58 <George> I posted this to the list earlier, but I expect to be in the Inferno soon -- "Escape from Hell" also arrived today!

Feb 07 16:20:00 <Hippy> Yep, Fred. Because they're brown, furry and green on the inside

Feb 07 16:20:06 <EML> The Beatles movie didn't work for me. Then again, if it were up to me, MTV would die a horrible, lingering death. I don't get music videos.

Feb 07 16:20:22 <Lensman> I thought CrazyEddy was some sort of system 'bot. He's *always* here, isn't he?

Feb 07 16:20:25 <George> I thought MTV WAS dying a slow horrible death!

Feb 07 16:20:26 <Hippy> Hang on, CrazyEddy? Is that who you mean, Sean?

Feb 07 16:20:31 <SeanS> yep

Feb 07 16:20:36 <FlyingDragon> Ed, not even "Thriller"?

Feb 07 16:20:41 <Jim> EML, MTV does not play music videos anymore

Feb 07 16:20:44 <Hippy> Oh! Well, that's the Ed I meant

Feb 07 16:20:50 <SeanS> he leaves a pc logged in all the time. eddy is not a system bot

Feb 07 16:20:57 <EML> Jim: *especially* not Thriller.

Feb 07 16:21:32 <EML> Oops, I typed to fast. My last answer was to Carol.

Feb 07 16:21:41 <Lensman> I don't know what "the Beatles movie" means. I enjoy "Yellow Submarine" but the other Beatles movies I've seen pieces of have not interested me.

Feb 07 16:21:55 <EML> BRB

Feb 07 16:22:12 <Jim> BRB?

Feb 07 16:22:13 <FlyingDragon> Lensman, it was a recent movie, with the songs re-recorded.

Feb 07 16:22:21 <Hippy> Be Right Back

Feb 07 16:22:22 <FlyingDragon> Be right back

Feb 07 16:22:23 <Lensman> The Laser Rangers seemed to think I

Feb 07 16:22:35 <Lensman> I'm a "bubble boy" for having never seen "Thriller"

Feb 07 16:22:40 <George> Oh, Across the Universe"? LOved it!

Feb 07 16:23:37 <FlyingDragon> Yes, that is it. I almost didn't go, becasue they re-recorded the songs. But I really liked it.

Feb 07 16:23:54 <FlyingDragon> Lensman, I don't know how that is possible.

Feb 07 16:24:05 <Lensman> "Across the Universe" is the name of the Beatles movie y'all are talking about?

Feb 07 16:24:11 <FlyingDragon> YEs, lensman.

Feb 07 16:24:58 <EML> So here's a question: what unexplained events or loose ends in Known Space annoy/intrigue you? Such things are grist for new Worlds books.

Feb 07 16:25:30 <SeanS> good question, ed... had a guy pop in and ask just yesterday

Feb 07 16:25:48 <SeanS> hopefully i have the flood protection turned off......

Feb 07 16:26:03 <Hippy> LOL!

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> at <http://www.chronology.org/noframes/niven/timeline.html>

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> 2645

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> Shaeffer meets Elephant (Gregory Pelton) and Sharrol Janss (an analyst for Donovan's Brains Inc). Shaeffer and Elephant travel to the most unique world in Known Space and discover what can harm a General Products Hull ("Flatlander" - shortly after "At The Core").

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> 2655

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> Nessus and the Papandreous run into some hostile Kzinti ("The Soft Weapon". 12 years after "At the Core", 40 Kzin-years after the last war?).

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> ...and I just found a similar reference in Juggler of Worlds.

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> I have a problem with these two items.

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> I refer to a Ballentine printing of the collection "Neutron Star", Sixth printing: June 1976

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> This book contains both stories: "The Soft Weapon" and "Flatlander". Specifically, they are in the book in that order.

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> In "The Soft Weapon", Anne-Marie names the planetoid "Cue Ball". In "Flatlander", the following dialog takes place:

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> "Cue Ball," said Elephant.

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> "No good. It's been used. Beta Lyrae I."

Feb 07 16:26:13 <SeanS> So how then could "The Soft Weapon" happen AFTER "Flatlander" ?

Feb 07 16:26:33 <EML> (Setting aside Puppeteer sex and rishasthra ...)

Feb 07 16:26:47 <Fred> easy

Feb 07 16:27:09 <Fred> somebody else used 'cue ball' before anybody else

Feb 07 16:27:20 <Lensman> Ed: Well, there's the genetics of humans/primates on earth and evolution. I was very interested to hear Carol report that Larry says KS is an alternate universe, and (apparently) human genetics are different there. In fact, that was one of two things I had noted to ask Larry about, if he showed up while I was in the chat today.

Feb 07 16:28:00 <SeanS> actually the captain in the soft weapon names beta lyrae I cueball in front of bey

Feb 07 16:28:06 <Lensman> Because "Cue Ball" is such an obvious name for it that two people thought to use it in unrelated circumstances.

Feb 07 16:28:12 <George> I'd like to see early ARM history, maybe some near-future stories.

Feb 07 16:28:14 <EML> Sean: the "cue ball" glitch is, IMO, unfixable. In Juggler we stayed consistent with Soft Weapon, of course.

Feb 07 16:28:24 <FlyingDragon> Ah, the motherhunts!

Feb 07 16:28:36 <SeanS> I will forward your response to the guy.

Feb 07 16:28:36 <Lensman> Sean: Try again. Bey was not in "The Soft Weapon".

Feb 07 16:28:52 <EML> Motherhunts are seen in Juggler.

Feb 07 16:28:59 <FlyingDragon> Ah. Behind

Feb 07 16:29:04 <SeanS> true

Feb 07 16:29:36 <Lensman> Ed: Really? You regard it as a glitch? I regarded it as an "in joke", as Jason said "Too bad if the name has been used", which of course it had been!

Feb 07 16:30:20 <George> I'd also like to know what happened to the Pak fleet and homeworld, and more on Brennan's activities.

Feb 07 16:30:22 <EML> IMO, the resolution to Pak as human ancestors is willing suspension of disbelief. Molecular evidence (DNA) clearly ties hominids into earthly evolution.

Feb 07 16:30:50 <Jim> I wonder how quickly that German couple featured on that BBC documentary would have fared against the ARM.

Feb 07 16:30:51 <EML> Lens: I can't disprove Larry meaning as a joke.

Feb 07 16:31:05 <George> Some stories of the Slaver War would be interesting.

Feb 07 16:31:06 <Hippy> Ed: just like the Tnuctip intended it would

Feb 07 16:31:28 <Lensman> I second George's suggestion. How did the "amalgamated regional militia" become the "federal police" of the U.N.? And for that matter, an unanswered question is "When did the U.N. become the soverign world government?"

Feb 07 16:31:30 <EML> George: there's LOTS about the Pak in the forthcoming (fall 2009) Destroyer of Worlds.

Feb 07 16:31:46 <George> :-)

Feb 07 16:32:09 <EML> Sean -- can you send me the log after the chat? I can't keep up with the suggestions!!

Feb 07 16:33:02 <George> Heehee -- you hadda ask!

Feb 07 16:33:16 <EML> the Slaver War ... that'd be going WAY back in Known Space, wouldn't it?

Feb 07 16:33:49 * FlyingDragon coralling the family to go to see Coraline now, to save a few bucks at the matinee.

Feb 07 16:33:52 <Lensman> If you and/or Larry care to address the question of "How can the structure of Jinx be strong enuff for the Ends to be 600 miles above the equatorial regions?" there could be a story there.

Feb 07 16:34:28 <George> Have fun, Carol! Let us know how the film is.

Feb 07 16:34:34 <EML> Lots of people seem to find the Puppeteers and Kzinti interesting. Do people like Thrint and Tnuctipun enough to write about them?

Feb 07 16:34:36 <Lensman> Sure, the Tnuctipun-Slaver war was an estimated 1.5 billion years ago.

Feb 07 16:34:49 <Hippy> Well, I do

Feb 07 16:35:10 <George> Well, there are question there to answer.

Feb 07 16:35:15 <Hippy> I like the insight on the Tnuctipun that we got in. . .damn. . .'Treasure of the Sierra Madre' but that wasn't the title

Feb 07 16:35:22 <Lensman> I note Larry says that he prefers not to write stories with no human characters. But *I* like 'em!

Feb 07 16:35:25 * FlyingDragon is now known as FlyingAway

Feb 07 16:35:40 <EML> My wife can't stand the Pak. Tastes differ.

Feb 07 16:35:53 <Hippy> You're not cooking them properly\

Feb 07 16:35:58 <EML> LOL

Feb 07 16:35:58 <George> You EAT Pak? >shudder<

Feb 07 16:36:09 <FlyingAway> LOL

Feb 07 16:36:20 <Lensman> Hippy: That would be the sequel to "The Children's Hour", I believe.

Feb 07 16:36:22 <Hippy> You need a slow cooker for them, because the muscles are very grsitly

Feb 07 16:36:42 <Hippy> Lens - you could do a whole series of 'gourmet Niven' stories

Feb 07 16:36:53 <Hippy> 'Trinoc: Delicious But Deadly'

Feb 07 16:37:06 <EML> Knock Knock Knock

Feb 07 16:37:07 <Hippy> 'Puppeteer in Mint Jelly

Feb 07 16:37:13 <George> I wouldn't mind some early adventures of Sigmund A.

Feb 07 16:37:25 <Hippy> Nice one, Ed

Feb 07 16:37:27 <Lensman> "The Asteroid Queen", maybe? (Re "Treasure of the Sierra Madre")

Feb 07 16:37:47 <Hippy> It's one of the two Pournelle and Stirling ones

Feb 07 16:37:57 <EML> George: Sigmund's early adventures, and how he became an ARM, are in Juggler of Worlds.

Feb 07 16:38:13 <Hippy> I'd look it up if the eyesight was better

Feb 07 16:38:24 <Jim> EML:" IMO, the resolution to Pak as human ancestors is willing suspension of disbelief. Molecular evidence (DNA) clearly ties hominids into earthly evolution. " Not if the Pak originated here.

Feb 07 16:38:30 * George has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Feb 07 16:38:41 <Lensman> Garner is a character I'd like to see more of. I'd be more interested in *his* early adventures than Siggy's.

Feb 07 16:38:57 * George (~George@71.242.181.107) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 16:39:08 <Hippy> Welcome back, George

Feb 07 16:39:11 <George> What the tanj?

Feb 07 16:39:13 <EML> Jim: PROTECTOR is very clear that the Pak originated thousands of LY closer to the galactic core.

Feb 07 16:39:31 <George> The ARM booted me off for asking the wrong questions!

Feb 07 16:40:07 <Hippy> Actualy, Garner's life would be good as you could show hwo the UN became the sovereign government through him

Feb 07 16:40:09 <EML> the ARM gacve you the boot? Why not the glove?

Feb 07 16:40:11 <Hippy> as he gets older

Feb 07 16:40:20 <George> Other ideas: Humanity's first contact with other species, maybe a whole series.

Feb 07 16:40:57 <George> Yeah, Garner is very cool. I'd love to read about his career.3

Feb 07 16:41:14 <Fred> I still want to know if Lit Schaeffer and Bey are related

Feb 07 16:41:26 <Fred> is Known Space one long family history?

Feb 07 16:41:32 <George> Boot is "get out", glove is "challenge". I prefer the boot!

Feb 07 16:41:38 <EML> I'd like to redirect my question a bit. Rather than concepts for whole books, I'm looking for smaller issues and seeming inconsistencies to address within other books.

Feb 07 16:41:56 <George> Ah.

Feb 07 16:41:57 <Lensman> I'm guessing Lit and Bey are related. No proof, however.

Feb 07 16:42:04 <Fred> like I just posed? :)

Feb 07 16:42:04 <EML> Like whether Louis Wu and Carlos Wu are related (I'm not telling).

Feb 07 16:42:18 <EML> Fred: exactly.

Feb 07 16:42:31 <Fred> well, *some* louis and carlos wu are related

Feb 07 16:42:36 <Hippy> Aren

Feb 07 16:42:48 <Lensman> Well I think the relationship between Bey and Carlos is pretty clearly established in "Procrustes".

Feb 07 16:42:49 <EML> Aren?

Feb 07 16:42:59 <Fred> Aren

Feb 07 16:43:01 <Hippy> Aren't there some Wus in 'World of Ptavvs' as well? Another family line there

Feb 07 16:43:17 <Lensman> Don't recall that.

Feb 07 16:43:18 <EML> Wu is more or less Chinese for "Smith"

Feb 07 16:43:42 <Fred> If the Wus married into the Brennan family at some point

Feb 07 16:44:05 <Fred> then we've got shaeffer/brennan/wu running throughout the history

Feb 07 16:44:15 <Fred> that covers most of it doesn't it?

Feb 07 16:44:23 <EML> Wu who!

Feb 07 16:44:25 <Hippy> Lens: I recall the wife being 'Wu Dorothy' but not from what book it was from by the sounds of it

Feb 07 16:44:44 <Lensman> No, Hippy is right; there was a Dorothy and Ling Wu in WOP.

Feb 07 16:44:56 <George> Chinese time traveler: Dr Wu

Feb 07 16:44:56 <Hippy> Phew!

Feb 07 16:45:18 <Hippy> If Russell T Davies hears about that. . .

Feb 07 16:45:32 <George> . . . He'll use it!

Feb 07 16:45:42 <EML> When the same people keep showing up, and being entangled in galactic affairs, I wonder why. In Juggler, we tried to show (for example) how Sigmund showed up three times in Bey's life.

Feb 07 16:45:42 <Hippy> No doubt about it

Feb 07 16:46:01 <Lensman> Hippy, I have not indexed WOP yet, but Brian O'Neill has.

Feb 07 16:46:38 <Lensman> JOW is enough to confirm any paranoic's belief that there's no such thing as coincidence!

Feb 07 16:46:41 <Hippy> I am in awe of both your capacities to do that

Feb 07 16:47:07 <EML> Aw ...

Feb 07 16:47:26 <Lensman> I am in awe of my ability to procrastinate and not finish indexing Ringworld in over a year... :)

Feb 07 16:48:01 <Lensman> Altho I did do a chapter yesterday.

Feb 07 16:48:02 <George> I like Siggy. I really enjoyed seeing him fill out as a character. as a person.

Feb 07 16:48:10 <Hippy> I am agog, aghast and agape at. . .whatever

Feb 07 16:48:14 <SeanS> same here, george

Feb 07 16:48:39 <EML> now if you can achieve agamemmnon, I'll really be impressed.

Feb 07 16:48:54 <George> Has everyone here read the Worlds books?

Feb 07 16:49:01 <Hippy> Gotta try 'agate' first

Feb 07 16:49:01 <SeanS> i have

Feb 07 16:49:11 <Lensman> I've read 'em both twice.

Feb 07 16:49:25 <Hippy> Lamentably no, George, but they are moving to the top of the pile because of these confabs

Feb 07 16:49:54 <EML> a word for you Siggy fans, he's back in DESTROYER OF WORLDS.

Feb 07 16:50:03 <Hippy> Off to get a contact lens fitted on Feb 23 so a fortnight or so later, I shall have my nose in the gutter, so to speak

Feb 07 16:50:06 <Jim> good

Feb 07 16:50:07 <Lensman> This is not a surprise.

Feb 07 16:50:26 <George> Oh. Well, good.

Feb 07 16:51:17 <George> Siggy in Destroyer raises interesting questions, some of which were first asked in "Limits". 'Nuff said.

Feb 07 16:51:39 <EML> so no other coincidences or seeming contradictions irritating y'all? (Fleet/Ringworld era only.)

Feb 07 16:51:45 <George> Hippy, what??

Feb 07 16:52:05 <EML> George: I don't understand. What is Limits?

Feb 07 16:52:36 <Lensman> Ed: Okay, here's one: How does a lift belt work? Antigravity or what? If you're going to address that, pls note the term "antigravity" DOES appear in /Ringworld Engineers/ and apparently both Louis and Chmeee have piloted vehicles using that tech.

Feb 07 16:53:05 <George> Humanoids on Ringwqorld. How and why? They should have a common ancestor, but cannot interbreed.

Feb 07 16:53:08 <Hippy> That is to say, George, I shall be so engrossed in reading the Worlds books, my nose shall be in the 'gutter' which is what they call the inside of the spine of the book, where the staples go in magazines

Feb 07 16:53:15 <Lensman> I'm with Ed. "Limits" is a Draco Tavern story, is it not?

Feb 07 16:53:16 <Jim> Limits was a Draco Tavern story.

Feb 07 16:53:41 <EML> I happened to have just reread RE. The flying belts repel scrith, they're not, strictly speaking, antigravity.

Feb 07 16:53:57 <George> "Limits" is one of Larry's older Draco Tavern tales. Deals with huimanity vs immortality.

Feb 07 16:54:11 <EML> I don't recall if the tech is the same in Ringworld. (I'd guess not, since Nesuss was new to scrith.)

Feb 07 16:54:30 <Lensman> No, the flying belts used on Ringworld use repulsors. I'm talking about frex the flying belts used in "A Relic of the Empire", and also flying cars as in "Grendel".

Feb 07 16:54:31 <George> Ah, thank you, Hippy!

Feb 07 16:55:09 <Hippy> We need to address the nipple question from last month. How about a story about that? :D

Feb 07 16:55:10 <EML> Grendel is another universe, isn't it?

Feb 07 16:55:23 <George> As in, remove the life limit, and what happens to humanity?

Feb 07 16:55:25 <Hippy> Grendel's KS

Feb 07 16:55:38 <EML> I missed the nipple question, I'm afraid.

Feb 07 16:55:46 <George> . . . Nipple question?

Feb 07 16:55:47 <Lensman> "Grendel" is a Beowulf Shaeffer story. *Not* /Beowulf's Children/.

Feb 07 16:56:20 <Hippy> We were talking, insanely, about how many nipples or breasts each hominid would have

Feb 07 16:57:05 <Fred> "all of them, I think

Feb 07 16:57:08 <George> Oh. Okay. There's usually twice as many as offspring usually expected, so . . .

Feb 07 16:57:21 <George> LOL, Fred!

Feb 07 16:57:24 <EML> ah, THAT grendel. Since it didn't figure in JOW, I put it out of my mind.

Feb 07 16:57:35 <Lensman> Ed: Here's the RW citation for antigravity: "Flying on Ringworld-floor-material repulsers was not like using antigravity, Louis noted. Repelled by both the rim wall and the landscape, the lander fell in a swooping curve. Chmeee stopped their descent at forty miles."

Feb 07 16:57:57 <Lensman> That seems to imply that Louis at least is familiar with flying vehicles using antigravity.

Feb 07 16:58:06 <George> The miracle autodoc would remove the life limit, at least for some privleged, valuable few.

Feb 07 16:58:06 <Lensman> I presume Chmeee also, but perhaps not.

Feb 07 16:58:15 <EML> as I said, the RE belts repelled scrith.

Feb 07 16:58:16 <Hippy> George: exactly. So we then went on to how many offspring each hominid would have, what is optimum strategy etc. It got involved and, as I say, insane

Feb 07 16:59:20 <Lensman> If the sort of lift belts typically used in KS and the "lift units" which lift flying cars use antigravity-- which I'm guessing is another application of artificial gravity-- then that makes sense.

Feb 07 16:59:56 <EML> there's antigravity in many KS stories. We put floaters into Juggler, almost as a throwaway (in the Into Thin Space segment).

Feb 07 17:00:28 <Lensman> Ed: Oh, and there's the question I raised recently about how the Kzinti warship in "The Warriors" matched velocities with /The Angel's Pencil/ if, as detailed in JOW, they can't figure out how to get a ship up to point eight lightspeed.

Feb 07 17:01:02 <EML> I guess I don't understand the nature of the question re antigrav. Isn't it all over the stories?

Feb 07 17:01:15 * Hippy AFK (Away From Keyboard) for another tea

Feb 07 17:01:21 <George> I guess this is a no-brainer, 'cause KS is complex enough, but I notice there's no talk at all of time travel in KS. Even is the Sven stories, it's not really time travel.

Feb 07 17:01:46 <Fred> unless rotating cylinders is a KS story

Feb 07 17:01:57 <George> It isn't, I think.

Feb 07 17:01:59 <Fred> I don't think there's anything to prevent it

Feb 07 17:02:00 <Lensman> Ed: No. In fact more than one fan on the list has claimed antigravity does not exist in KS. The one reference I cited above, from RE, is the *only* occurrance of the actual word "antigravity" I've found.

Feb 07 17:02:49 <George> What else is a lift belt if not anti-grav? Also, there are all the flying cars.

Feb 07 17:02:57 <Lensman> George: Actually there is the *implication* of time travel in "The Warriors"; a race encountered by the Kzin who mysteriously disappeared. However that does not constitute proof.

Feb 07 17:03:09 <Fred> and gravity control on ships that overrides external gravity

Feb 07 17:03:41 <EML> Lens: getting up to any part of cee isn't a physical impossibility, its (usually) an engineering impracticality. Ramscoops don't have to carry much fuel. The Kzinto built ships (must have been huge) to carry enough fuel, so they can. For hyperdrive-capable ships, why would you?

Feb 07 17:03:47 <Lensman> Yes, there are numerous references to "cabin gravity" and that does at least counteract external gravity. Not sure if it nulifies it.

Feb 07 17:03:58 <George> True, Lens -- I'd forgotten that! That was an amusing bit.

Feb 07 17:04:06 <Fred> it's adjustable

Feb 07 17:04:28 <Fred> I guess it could just be overpowering it

Feb 07 17:04:54 <Lensman> Ed: Certainly one would not expect hyperdrive ships to carry that much fuel. My objection is that Carlos Wu basically said "It's impossible", when clearly the Kzinti did it in the pre-hyperdrive era.

Feb 07 17:05:19 <EML> does the existence of antigravity require the use of that term? when I was much younger, people spoke of "zero gravity" and now there's a persnickity reason to call it "microgravity."

Feb 07 17:05:49 <Fred> does Jinx have "macrogravity"?

Feb 07 17:06:06 <Lensman> Here's a conundrum: How is it that cabin gravity has a sharp "edge"? Note in RW when Teela and Louis drop out of the airlock, the cabin gravity goes off in the airlock and they fall on their heads on the Ringworld floor.

Feb 07 17:06:14 <EML> Lens: mea culpa. we didn't make clear the improbability applied to an Earth-made ship of that particular era.

Feb 07 17:06:27 <Jim> EML: even better "free fall"

Feb 07 17:06:50 <Lensman> Ed: No, I'm perfectly willing to accept your statement that "floaters" use antigravity even if the term is not specified.

Feb 07 17:07:21 <Fred> the same reason the deck gravity on the enterprise doesn't let you walk on the ceiling, Lens

Feb 07 17:07:34 <EML> IMO, the various types of gravity control (planers, floating devices) subsume antigravity.

Feb 07 17:08:05 <Lensman> But Ed wasn't asking about unexplained bits of Trek lore. He was asking about unexplained bits of KS lore.

Feb 07 17:08:22 <EML> the Pak also have antigravity -- we see that in PROTECTOR and again in the Repair Center on Ringworld (per RE).

Feb 07 17:09:33 <Lensman> Here's another conundrum: If antigravity is practical, why do booster rockets (which ferry fusion-powered ships to orbit) use ultra-compressed air or ultra-compressed helium instead? (I'm guessing the answer is "compressed air is cheaper to operate")

Feb 07 17:10:12 <George> Oh, hey, I'd also like to know more about General Buford Early and his secret group. That was cool.

Feb 07 17:10:12 <Hippy> Different eras, Lens

Feb 07 17:10:16 <EML> sometimes technolgies overlap in time. lots of planes still use propellers.

Feb 07 17:10:36 <George> Is the Kzin police field related to their anti-gravity?

Feb 07 17:10:44 <Hippy> Even better explanation, Ed

Feb 07 17:10:49 <Lensman> Protector has the gravity planer... which seems to be the same as Kzinti gravity polarizer. But note in /Protector/ the ship can't be lifted off from the planet with that propulsion.

Feb 07 17:10:54 <Fred> a protector's gravity polarizer won't life you against planet gravity

Feb 07 17:11:16 <EML> I believe the police restraint field (Kzin and other) is a more general force field.

Feb 07 17:11:37 <George> Mmmm, yeah.

Feb 07 17:11:50 <Hippy> It's the reverse of Sinclair's inertialess field from 'ARM'

Feb 07 17:12:02 <Lensman> No, not different eras. In "Flatlander" they used a booster to lift Elephant's ship into orbit.

Feb 07 17:12:23 <Hippy> Yes, but did they use antigravity in Bey's time?

Feb 07 17:13:09 <EML> By Bey's time they had to have cabin gravity. With accelerations up to 30 gees, without cabin gravity you'd turn everyone aboard into jelly.

Feb 07 17:13:13 <Lensman> If lift belts use antigravity, then it's availble in all the Beowulf Shaeffer era stories. Lift belts appear in "A Relic of the Empire", as standard issue.

Feb 07 17:13:44 <Hippy> Damn, so they do! Oh, well, that answers that

Feb 07 17:14:26 <EML> FYI -- Defier of Worlds (if it happens) is pretty much in the middle between the Bey era and the Ringworld era. It'll be an opportunity to "invent" some of the transitional stage technology.

Feb 07 17:14:26 <Lensman> Police restraint field is the reverse of the inertial reduction field? Hmmmm.... that's an interesting idea. I don't think so, it doesn't slow down metabolic processes.

Feb 07 17:15:27 <George> Thing that bugs me about antigrav is, it works in one direction only; on the top of a deck, but not from the bottom. It also cuts off sharply at airlocks, as has been noted. These two items need to be addressed as to how it works.

Feb 07 17:15:48 <Lensman> "Canon for the Man-Kzin War" notes that artificial gravity is coming into common use by the beginning of the Second Man-Kzin War. Well before the Beowulf Shaeffer era.

Feb 07 17:16:51 <EML> wherer would I put my hands on a copy of "canon for the man-kzin war?"

Feb 07 17:17:02 <Fred> ship's armory

Feb 07 17:17:04 <Jim> Is Bey still alive by the time Ringworld happens?

Feb 07 17:17:16 <Fred> he is in 'down in flames'

Feb 07 17:17:28 <Hippy> That's a good one, Jim!

Feb 07 17:17:39 <EML> Jim: AFAIK, he was last seen in Fly-By-Night, in hiding.

Feb 07 17:17:57 <George> In that one instance, we see a police field protect people from impact. We assume cabin gravity was not on. If it were, and it protects from acceleration, would it have saved the Kzin?

Feb 07 17:18:21 <Lensman> Here's my fanfix on artificial gravity with sharp boundaries: According to relativity, "gravity" is a side-effect of curved space. With artificial gravity, you have two "plates", one upper and one lower, which create a "strain" in between which curves space artificially, without mass. With cabin gravity, you actually have three sets of these plates, for all three directional axes. This explains why, when you go beyond the area bounded by the emitter

Feb 07 17:18:39 * FlyingAway has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Feb 07 17:18:42 <Hippy> There's a strange sensation going on here - like the inside of a fridge - what did we used to call that? :)

Feb 07 17:19:02 <Fred> carol just went beyond the area bounded by the emitter

Feb 07 17:19:21 <Lensman> Cabin gravity has limits to the amount of acceleration it can counteract. Note in RW the /Liar/ lurched when it hit the shadow square wire, despite cabin gravity.

Feb 07 17:19:47 <Fred> that might be reaction time

Feb 07 17:19:49 <Lensman> LOL at Hippy

Feb 07 17:19:49 <EML> since clearly no one understands gravity (GR has never been reconciled with QM), much handwaving seems justifiable.

Feb 07 17:19:57 * FlyingAway (~Carol@64.91.142.144) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 17:20:11 <George> True. Some inerita changes may be too abrupt.

Feb 07 17:20:19 <Lensman> Fred: Okay, yes that could be just slow reaction.

Feb 07 17:20:28 <Fred> it might also be built in

Feb 07 17:20:32 <Fred> intentionally

Feb 07 17:20:44 <Fred> so passengers NOTICE they hit an asteroid

Feb 07 17:20:57 <George> Yeah, you do want to know when something happens!

Feb 07 17:21:07 <EML> without limitations to technology, there are no story opportunities.

Feb 07 17:21:27 <George> One wonders if the antigrav can turned into a police field type of "airbag" ay need . . .

Feb 07 17:21:36 <Fred> "set inertia damping to 10% of actual, with a maximum of 25% of fatal"

Feb 07 17:21:45 <George> Very true, Ed!

Feb 07 17:22:01 <George> Listen to us too long, we solve the issues and the story vanishes!

Feb 07 17:22:22 <George> I do that all the time with films I'm watching.

Feb 07 17:22:40 <EML> but there is yet another way (after Juggler) to destroy a GP hull :-)

Feb 07 17:23:16 <Fred> I want my GP hull clad in scrith

Feb 07 17:23:45 <George> LOL

Feb 07 17:24:19 <EML> now *scrith* is fascinating ... I think I may give it some more thought.

Feb 07 17:24:20 <Lensman> The crash field is the same as the police field, and is clearly different than cabin gravity. Note crash field in both "Neutron Star" and "Grendel".

Feb 07 17:24:51 <George> Well, you'd expect the Puppeteers to have some way to exert control over all the invulnerable hulls they sold!

Feb 07 17:25:09 <EML> FYI, the crash field figures prominently in DESTROYER.

Feb 07 17:25:32 <George> Of course, we ALL want to read the tale of the building of the Ringworld. I'm betting we never see it.

Feb 07 17:25:54 <EML> George: I'm not talking about an autodestruct switch. I'm talking SURPRISE.

Feb 07 17:26:42 <George> 'Cause the day after it comes out, there'll be all this "No, I don't think that's right" going on!

Feb 07 17:26:54 <EML> George: the building of RW is too big a tale for me. I shiver to think about such a story.

Feb 07 17:27:06 <George> Oh, I thought you meant the method shown in Juggler.

Feb 07 17:28:03 <Hippy> The Ringworld was colonised by the Pak but built for them by the Daimoni - which then leads into a huge series where you reconcile Known Space with the Instrumentality stories

Feb 07 17:28:05 <Lensman> I really really really really really want to know how /scrith/ is made! The entire story of building the Ringworld may be too much, though.

Feb 07 17:28:42 <Lensman> I'm assuming there is some limit to the amount of inertia cabin gravity can counteract, and I'm assuming it takes energy to do that. TANSTAAFL.

Feb 07 17:28:43 <EML> The RW was built by Keebler elves.

Feb 07 17:28:54 <George> AHA!!

Feb 07 17:29:10 <Hippy> Timestamp this moment - it is pissing down out there

Feb 07 17:29:10 <EML> THEY have time travel.

Feb 07 17:29:28 <George> :-)

Feb 07 17:29:48 <Lensman> "On 3 Feb 2009, at 4:28 central time, Edward M. Lerner revealed that the *actual* Ringworld engineers were Keebler Elves."

Feb 07 17:30:00 <Lensman> Er, 7 Feb...

Feb 07 17:30:15 <Hippy> The Ringworld was not built - it derived from narrativium excess. It exists because it's narratively imperative that it do so

Feb 07 17:30:26 <Lensman> LOL at Hippy

Feb 07 17:30:45 <George> It's the 19th here . . . I mean, uh, never mind!

Feb 07 17:30:59 <Lensman> Finagle, tanj and futz! My company is here, I shall have to sign off. >:-(

Feb 07 17:31:03 <Hippy> The first novel would be very short if they got to, for example, 200 Coma Berenices and found nothing

Feb 07 17:31:08 * Lensman is now known as Lensman_free

Feb 07 17:31:18 <EML> and if Keebler elves built the RW, then maybe humans are chocolate chips off the old block.

Feb 07 17:31:48 <Hippy> Has the Ringworld's sun been positively, canonically, identified?

Feb 07 17:31:54 <George> Stop that, stop that, it's getting too silly! It might explain all those nipples though.

Feb 07 17:33:15 <Hippy> Hmm. "When I purchased this vampire not half an hour ago, you assured that it's total lack of arousal was due to it being tired out and full after a prolonged rishathra.'

Feb 07 17:33:38 <SeanS> hippy... so timestamped

Feb 07 17:33:52 <Hippy> Thanks, Sean :)

Feb 07 17:33:53 <George> Prolonged rishathra, ummmmm >HomerDrool<

Feb 07 17:34:15 <George> Tanjdammit, I have to go pick up company that was supposed to get here on its own.

Feb 07 17:34:17 <Hippy> Well, 'drool' would depend on the species

Feb 07 17:34:28 <George> Picky, picky . . .

Feb 07 17:34:33 <George> :-)

Feb 07 17:35:06 <Hippy> Well, I suppose I can hammer the fuel a bit - that should fix matters

Feb 07 17:35:23 <George> >sigh< I have to go. Never mind the flying cars, where's a transfer booth when you need one?

Feb 07 17:35:30 <EML> I'm going to call it a day soon. I appreciate everyone's comments (with no idea yet whather these things will make it into another Worlds book).

Feb 07 17:35:44 <SeanS> thanks for stopping by Ed

Feb 07 17:35:51 <Hippy> It's been fun, Ed

Feb 07 17:35:57 <George> You're welcome, Ed. Have fun!

Feb 07 17:36:02 <EML> any Fleet, Juggler, or Fools' EXperiments questions before i sign off?

Feb 07 17:36:45 <Jim> seeya Ed

Feb 07 17:36:56 <George> Just got Fool's today, and Escape is next, but I'm sure I'll have questions later!

Feb 07 17:37:01 <Hippy> None from the Antipodes, Ed

Feb 07 17:37:24 <EML> Sean -- can you send me a copy of the log?

Feb 07 17:37:28 <George> I'm off too. See you on the List!

Feb 07 17:37:36 <Hippy> 'Bye, George

Feb 07 17:37:40 <SeanS> sure, Ed

Feb 07 17:37:51 * George has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Feb 07 17:38:10 <EML> ttfn

Feb 07 17:38:14 * EML has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Feb 07 17:40:23 <Hippy> Fred: do you happen to know the elevation of Phoenix?

Feb 07 17:41:30 <Jim> 1,117 ft (340 m)

Feb 07 17:42:09 <Hippy> Much obliged, Jim. I was discussing Ballarat the other day (1400 ft) and comparing it's weather to Phoenix's

Feb 07 17:42:15 <SeanS> wow... taht was quick

Feb 07 17:42:36 <Hippy> Well, Ed has to come back as Larry in a minute, so he left fast

Feb 07 17:42:47 <SeanS> no, the elevation answer

Feb 07 17:42:58 <Hippy> Thanks to a certain pill he can teleport himself to California and resurface as Larry

Feb 07 17:43:18 <Hippy> Yes, it was. Jim presumably memorises elevations for some reason

Feb 07 17:45:41 <SeanS> i remember my elevation because i had to have it surveyed when i built the new house... that 100 year flood mark issue that we have here

Feb 07 17:46:54 <Hippy> No worries about floods here - although if this. . .rayon. . .was that what we called it?. .keeps up. we may have flash flooding

Feb 07 17:48:41 <Jim> gotta go, say hi to larry

Feb 07 17:48:41 <Jim> bye

Feb 07 17:48:45 * Jim has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122])

Feb 07 17:48:51 <SeanS> the kentucky river has been known to come up 49.5 feet from its normal pool stage. that puts the 100 year flood mark at 510 feet. my base elevation is 509.7 feet

Feb 07 17:48:57 <Hippy> Now that was quick

Feb 07 17:49:21 <Hippy> Well, looks like it's down to the indefatigables

Feb 07 17:49:37 <SeanS> heh... my client stays logged in 24/7

Feb 07 17:49:43 <SeanS> dont always look at it tho

Feb 07 17:49:53 <Hippy> But I should adjourn and explott this precipitation by putting the plants out under it, so I shall bid you both (all) a fond farewell and see you next month

Feb 07 17:50:05 <SeanS> okay

Feb 07 17:50:08 <SeanS> later hippy

Feb 07 17:50:09 <Hippy> You run a good server, Sean

Feb 07 17:50:17 <SeanS> thanks

Feb 07 17:50:24 <Hippy> The 'whois' command gave me a lot of info it doesn't do on other servers

Feb 07 17:50:35 <SeanS> its ircxchatpro

Feb 07 17:50:40 <SeanS> irc xchat pro

Feb 07 17:50:40 <Hippy> Anyway, see everyone in March, and if I can get contacts sooner, on the list

Feb 07 17:50:53 <SeanS> best of luck

Feb 07 17:50:55 <Hippy> I shall look into it

Feb 07 17:51:03 <Hippy> Oh, and what would you recommend for VOIP?

Feb 07 17:51:11 <SeanS> skype

Feb 07 17:51:30 <Hippy> I'm using XFire now, but you think Skype is better? Okay, I shall look into that, too

Feb 07 17:51:34 <SeanS> voice and video for free to other skype users

Feb 07 17:51:45 * CrazyEddy has quit (Ping timeout)

Feb 07 17:51:49 <SeanS> like a penny a minute to call from computer to landline anywhere in the world

Feb 07 17:51:52 <Hippy> What's the vidoe like?

Feb 07 17:52:08 <Hippy> Holy crap! Ping timeout!!

Feb 07 17:52:09 <SeanS> pretty good. i video call euan ritchie from time to time. no lag

Feb 07 17:52:23 <SeanS> and that is from kentucky to new zeeland

Feb 07 17:52:24 <Hippy> That's good. How many frames a second?

Feb 07 17:52:38 <SeanS> not sure but it looks fairly close to realtime to me

Feb 07 17:52:54 <Hippy> I'm using MSN Messenger for video and XFire for voice, and hte video is not good.

Feb 07 17:53:02 <SeanS> that also depends on the video senders camera

Feb 07 17:53:12 <Hippy> So I shall consider Skype (Frank Gasperik put me onto it, but I didn't know anyone else who used it)

Feb 07 17:53:32 <SeanS> my cam is not working right now due to some linux issue after upgrade that i havent figured out yet

Feb 07 17:53:49 <SeanS> mark firestone (dennis nedry) uses it

Feb 07 17:53:58 <SeanS> dan hollifield, nick edwards

Feb 07 17:54:03 <Hippy> Anyway, I'm off - good luck with the camera - see everyone in March

Feb 07 17:54:11 <SeanS> carol phillips

Feb 07 17:54:12 <Hippy> Well, it seems a lot of people do

Feb 07 17:54:20 <SeanS> thats just list people of course

Feb 07 17:54:37 <Hippy> Well, I'll give it a try

Feb 07 17:54:46 <Hippy> Now I must tear myself away :)

Feb 07 17:54:49 <SeanS> i am on there as

Feb 07 17:54:52 <Hippy> 'Bye everyone

Feb 07 17:54:54 <SeanS> sean1783media

Feb 07 17:55:09 <Hippy> I'll remember

Feb 07 17:55:27 <SeanS> kk

Feb 07 17:55:30 <Hippy> 1783? A date shall live in infamy. .

Feb 07 17:55:35 <SeanS> yep

Feb 07 17:55:44 <SeanS> no where i pulled it from?

Feb 07 17:55:47 <SeanS> know?

Feb 07 17:55:49 <Hippy> God Save The King

Feb 07 17:55:58 <SeanS> 1783 was a very good year

Feb 07 17:56:04 <Hippy> Yes, an unfortunate one

Feb 07 17:56:05 <SeanS> mozart wrote his great mass

Feb 07 17:56:12 <Hippy> An unfortunate letter from King George

Feb 07 17:56:24 <SeanS> the mungalfia brothers went up in their first balloon ride

Feb 07 17:56:36 <SeanS> and england recognized the independence of the united states

Feb 07 17:56:41 <SeanS> its a movie quote

Feb 07 17:57:01 <Hippy> Oh. . .I don't know the movie

Feb 07 17:57:10 <Hippy> But I know that last bit

Feb 07 17:57:11 <SeanS> heh... i figured everybody on the list would

Feb 07 17:57:17 <SeanS> Highlander

Feb 07 17:57:41 <Hippy> Well, there you go. I've seen that (and the sequels) but I didn't remember that

Feb 07 17:57:59 <Hippy> This is really 'The Long Goodbye'

Feb 07 17:58:05 <SeanS> sequels arent worth the time in my opinion.

Feb 07 17:58:07 <SeanS> it is isnt it

Feb 07 17:58:28 <Hippy> Now I must away - you're right about the sequels - you are ruining my dramatic exit!

Feb 07 17:58:34 <SeanS> LOL

Feb 07 17:58:40 * Hippy swirls his cape and vanishes in the rain

Feb 07 17:58:40 <SeanS> i gotta pack a cooler anyway

Feb 07 17:59:00 <Hippy> Okay. And I must put on some washing

Feb 07 17:59:00 <SeanS> gonna go up to a friend's house and watch the bud shootout from daytona

Feb 07 17:59:27 <Hippy> Sounds like a good day

Feb 07 17:59:30 <Hippy> Night

Feb 07 17:59:33 <SeanS> night

Feb 07 17:59:50 * Hippy tears himself away!!

Feb 07 18:00:17 <Hippy> Of course, this is when Larry will come on

Feb 07 18:00:22 * Hippy has quit ()

Feb 07 18:00:27 <SeanS> little late for larry

Feb 07 18:05:39 * LouisWu (~LouisWu@24.187.170.121) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 18:06:56 * LouisWu has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Feb 7 18:13:10 2009

Feb 07 18:13:10 * Now talking on #knownspace

Feb 07 18:37:08 * Fred has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Feb 07 18:43:30 * Fred (~Fred@68.3.85.244) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 18:43:44 <Fred> wow

Feb 07 18:43:51 <Fred> chat go 'blooey'

Feb 07 18:44:10 <Fred> suddenly I had no chat, all sorts of command stuff, no user list

Feb 07 18:44:35 <SeanS> hmm

Feb 07 18:44:40 <SeanS> didnt see anything here

Feb 07 18:45:35 <SeanS> using the applet? you might of had a ping timeout and the window closed. click on the status box and see if thats the command stuff you saw

Feb 07 18:50:16 <Fred> status box is empty

Feb 07 18:50:22 <SeanS> strange

Feb 07 18:50:37 <SeanS> all i got here is: Fred has quit (Connection reset by peer)

Feb 07 18:51:00 <Fred> ack. when I came back from status, I didn't get most of the interface

Feb 07 18:51:07 <Fred> no users, no font stuff

Feb 07 18:51:26 <Fred> just read and write and status box

Feb 07 18:51:35 <SeanS> i dont know much about the applet

Feb 07 18:52:06 <Fred> okay, dragging the scroll bars around rebuilt the interface

Feb 07 18:52:32 <SeanS> that makes sense since it is a java applet.. i will make a mental note of that

Feb 07 18:52:48 <Fred> resizing the window brought back the rest of it, font colors and such

Feb 07 18:54:00 <SeanS> going to head up to a friends in about 5-10 minutes to watch the bud shoot out. here, be god

Feb 07 18:54:05 * SeanS gives channel operator status to Fred

Feb 07 18:58:50 * Elwood (~Elwood@67.83.204.189) has joined #knownspace

Feb 07 18:58:59 <Elwood> Hi all

Feb 07 18:59:06 <Fred> hey elwood

Feb 07 18:59:14 <Elwood> Hi Fred! Dave in Hoboken here

Feb 07 18:59:24 <Fred> Hi Dave :)

Feb 07 18:59:26 <Elwood> How was the chat?

Feb 07 18:59:48 <Fred> not bad. Ed Lerner was here, wanted to know what we wanted to hear about in future works

Feb 07 19:00:20 <SeanS> later all.. heading up the hill

Feb 07 19:00:25 <SeanS> hi elwood

Feb 07 19:00:26 <Elwood> What were some responses?

Feb 07 19:00:28 <Elwood> Hi Sean

Feb 07 19:00:49 <SeanS> i will try to get the log to the larryniven.org webmaster tomorrow

Feb 07 19:00:58 <Elwood> Hmm, what would I like to hear about...

Feb 07 19:01:09 <Fred> how to build scrith, complete history of the slaver wars

Feb 07 19:01:20 <Elwood> First of all, I'd like Ed and Larry to please leave poor Beowulf and his family alone

Feb 07 19:01:34 <Fred> he thought those were a big to grandiose :)

Feb 07 19:02:33 <Elwood> I'd like more stories like "Relic of the Empire." What's it like to live in Known Space, where you might stumble across Pak or Slaver artifacts at any time?

Feb 07 19:02:54 <Elwood> I'm kinda done with the grand conspiracies.

Feb 07 19:03:47 <Elwood> I agree that a "complete" history of thw Slaver war would be a bit much. But Kzanol struggling to cope on Earth made for a fun story. More like that would be good.

Feb 07 19:05:00 <Elwood> I gotta go bathe my 3-year-old, I'll look forward to reading the chatlog.

Feb 07 19:05:26 * Elwood has quit (Quit: *g0ne*)

Feb 07 22:18:37 * Fred has quit (Connection reset by peer)