Chat Log: June 7th 2003

One of Larry's collaborator's, Brenda Cooper was present for this chat.

Session Start: Sat Jun 07 20:31:07 2003

[20:32] *** Nesssus changes topic to 'Pak Protectors - Genetically Engineered for Intelligence?'

[20:32] <SteveS> Yeah, it's hard to imagine that system evolving naturally.

[20:34] <Harry_Red> Perhaps Steve, but can you imagine a method of reproduction that involves trapping a 3rd party, then letting it go?

[20:35] <Harry_Red> That's one of the more interesting examples.

[20:36] <SteveS> Yeah, the puppeteer system is just as unlikely.

[20:36] <SteveS> (Or likely)

[20:36] <SteveS> :-)

[20:36] <Harry_Red> Actually, we don

[20:36] <Harry_Red> to know if the Puppeteers are lying about things.

[20:37] <Nesssus> Have they ever been caught out in an outright lie?

[20:38] <Harry_Red> That evolution of Protectors does smack of meddling though. By WHO and WHY are good questions at this point.

[20:39] <Harry_Red> Yes Nessus.

[20:39] <SeanS> the outsiders probably

[20:39] <SeanS> or the tnuctipun

[20:39] <Harry_Red> No Sean, Outsiders trade. Protectors don't trade.

[20:40] <Harry_Red> I doubt the Tnuctipun too. Dominated protectors would be a horrifying thought.

[20:41] <Nesssus> If anyone meddled with the protector genome, it's got to be the Outsiders

[20:41] <Harry_Red> Or a race that Larry hasn’t written about.

[20:41] <Nesssus> I don't think the Puppeteers would dare to create a species that dangerous - neither would they travel so far from home to the Galactic core worlds

[20:42] <SteveS> Possibly a race that the Protectors rebelled against, and completely took out, millions of years ago.

[20:42] <SeanS> right, Nesssus, the puppeteers mostly don’t do space travel at all

[20:42] <Harry_Red> The CORE worlds get a LOT more radiation than what we consider usual too.

[20:43] <Harry_Red> Hi Radiation, more rapid evolution.

[20:43] <SeanS> yep

[20:45] <SeanS> but the protectors prevent evolution of their own species

[20:45] <SeanS> if the child smells wrong, it is killed

[20:46] <Harry_Red> BTW, according to the latest, Terra is in a kind of HOT bubble of space.

[20:46] <SteveS> Which still leaves room for very slow evolution, if the changes per generation are too subtle for them to detect.

[20:46] <SeanS> true, Steve

[20:47] <SeanS> what do you mean, frank?

[20:47] <Harry_Red> Hold on, I'll get the link.

[20:47] <SeanS> k

[20:52] <Harry_Red> Go HERE: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030530081808.htm

[20:52] <Nesssus> I'm reading Darwin's Radio at the moment, only about half way through, but it seems that in the book spontaneous evolution by a retrovirus killed off the Neanderthals

[20:53] <Harry_Red> Actually Steve, the protectors are simply another "FILTER" in the evolutionary process.

[20:54] <SeanS> very interesting

[20:55] <Harry_Red> I haven't seen any evidence for that. I HAVE seen a pretty good case for the NEANDERTHALS being killed off by Cro-Magnon though.

[20:55] <Harry_Red> The link?

[20:55] <SeanS> yes

[20:55] <Nesssus> if the Pak had evolved naturally - how would they have suddenly developed tool wielding intelligence after going through the breeder stage

[20:55] *** Nick_E has joined #knownspace

[20:55] <Nesssus> Hi Nick_E

[20:55] <SteveS> Hi, Nick!

[20:55] <SeanS> wb nick

[20:56] <Harry_Red> Hi Nick.

[20:56] <Nick_E> Hi folks

[20:56] <Nick_E> So where are we with the subject?

[20:57] <Nesssus> To recap - I just said - if the Pak had evolved naturally - how would they have suddenly developed tool wielding intelligence after going through the breeder stage

[20:58] <SeanS> you mean the change brought on by the virus in tree of life?

[20:58] <Harry_Red> A Virus can do strange things... You might note that Evolution doesn’t only work on one species on a planet. My bet is that the PAK race were much like HomoSap Until THEY invented the TOL Virus, the resulting wars took out the Intelligent breeder stage.

[20:58] <Nick_E> You could argue that the symbiotic tree of life (TOL) virus is by definition an example of genetic engineering

[20:59] <SteveS> Sounds pretty plausible, that they did it to themselves.

[20:59] <Nick_E> Fair point Frank

[20:59] <Nesssus> would the pak have evolved as pak in the child-breeder-pak stage or would the breeders just have evolved like us and the pak stage came along later

[20:59] <Harry_Red> You could argue that the bacteria that allows Humans to assimilate certain forms o proteins is genetic engineering too.

[21:00] <Nick_E> With all the wars and stuff, how long was it before some bright spark came up with the idea of the library as a species wide resource...all sorts could have been lost before then#

[21:01] *** raja99 has joined #knownspace

[21:01] <Nesssus> Hi raja99

[21:01] <Harry_Red> I can see using TOL Virus as a modified weapon and THAT screwing up their entire life cycle too.

[21:01] <SteveS> Hi, Raja!

[21:01] <raja99> Hi Nessus (boy it's hard to type your name ;)

[21:01] <Harry_Red> Welcome Raja.

[21:01] <SeanS> hi raja

[21:01] <raja99> Hi folks !

[21:01] <Nick_E> Yes. The mitochondria in all our cells is another example

[21:01] <Nick_E> Hi Raja

[21:02] *** Ignacio has joined #knownspace

[21:02] <Nesssus> Hi Ignacio

[21:02] <SteveS> Hi, Ignacio!

[21:02] <Nick_E> Hiya

[21:02] <Nesssus> Didn't think you could make it Ignacio?

[21:02] *** TreeHugr has joined #knownspace

[21:02] <Nesssus> Hi TreeHugr

[21:02] <Ignacio> Not sure yet ;)

[21:02] <TreeHugr> Hi!

[21:03] <SteveS> Hi, TreeHugr!

[21:03] <Nick_E> must be nearly 9pm GMT; they're all turning up!

[21:03] <Nesssus> 9.04

[21:03] <raja99> Sorry I missed the beginning. Has anyone asked what happened to Home? I.e., did anyone in known space mention Home's fate after _Protector_?

[21:04] <SteveS> This is the time the reminder message said to be here.

[21:04] <Ignacio> Thanks for the welcome. I'll be away from the keyboard (AFK)for some periods...

[21:04] *** SigmundAu has joined #knownspace

[21:04] <Nesssus> Hi SigmundAu

[21:04] <Harry_Red> If you look, there are all kinds of examples around us. I never have liked the SUPERIOUR ALIENS explanation. I have an EXCELLENT reason

[21:04] <Nick_E> 9pm summer time then :-)

[21:04] <TreeHugr> Examples of what?

[21:04] <Nesssus> There is a story written by Matthew Joseph Harrington - to be published in a future MKW volume (maybe 11), called Teacher's Pet which deals with the cleanup of Home.

[21:05] <Nick_E> Why the pak got all protectory intelligent

[21:05] <raja99> Thanks Nesssus. Was there an offhand comment in Ringworld Engineers, or am I misremembering?

[21:05] <TreeHugr> Cool.....must remember to preorder MKW 10 from Amazon.

[21:06] <Nick_E> Can't recall if it was anything more than a ref to the Home colony failing

[21:06] <Harry_Red> People might find this interesting: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030530081808.htm

[21:06] <TreeHugr> Is this implying that the protector stage was induced?

[21:06] <raja99> HairyRed, I missed the question. What's your "excellent reason"?

[21:06] <Nesssus> Teacher's Pet isn't in 10 - 10 is 4 Hal Colebatch stories

[21:08] <Harry_Red> For ALIENS NOT interfering or Altruistically Elevating other races...

[21:08] *** kreno_out is now known as Krenon

[21:08] <Krenon> Hi

[21:08] <TreeHugr> Yo

[21:08] <raja99> Basically, why KnownSpace doesn't have Uplift? (half ;)

[21:08] <SeanS> wb, krenon

[21:08] <SigmundAu> Hello, all.

[21:08] <Nick_E> wb Ted

[21:08] <Nesssus> TreeHug - it seems so - or we could try to postulate here how protectors evolved naturally - and what part the TOL virus had to play

[21:08] <Nesssus> Hi Ted

[21:09] <Harry_Red> The reasoning is quite simple. Organizations that start out from the best of reasons eventually develop the worst traits.

[21:09] <Krenon> Mercury and Venus in the east just before dawn are a class act at present.

[21:09] <SteveS> The very existence of the Thrintun screwed up an Uplift scenario.

[21:09] <Harry_Red> Ie Self Interest is much more reliable than Altruism.

[21:10] <raja99> HairyRed, then why not have engineered slaves that got away? Hmm, like Bandersnatch, but a larger scale?

[21:10] <Krenon> Back again in a few minutes.

[21:10] *** Brenda has joined #knownspace

[21:10] <Nesssus> Hi Brenda

[21:10] <SteveS> Hi, Brenda!

[21:10] <Nick_E> Hi Brenda

[21:10] <Brenda> Hi - can't stay long, but thought I'd drop in. Hope all are well.

[21:10] <Nesssus> Cooper?

[21:10] <Brenda> Yes. that's me

[21:11] <Krenon> :-)

[21:11] <Harry_Red> Any intelligent race would see that any uplifted race could/would be a threat in the future and therefore, Uplifting would be against the interests of that race.

[21:11] <SteveS> Cool.

[21:11] <Nesssus> Hello and Welcome

[21:11] <Nick_E> Thought so

[21:11] <Harry_Red> BRENDA! LTNC !

[21:11] <Brenda> LTNC?

[21:11] <Nesssus> Brenda, do you have any news about the Creation Myth novel that you co-wrote with Larry?

[21:11] <Nick_E> long time no see

[21:11] <Harry_Red> Long Time No Chat!

[21:12] <Brenda> Working on it today. This re-draft (hopefully the last) due to Larry before Westercon (July)

[21:12] <Nick_E> whatever! ;-)

[21:12] <Nick_E> Cool

[21:12] <SteveS> Unless there's a setup where you get advantages/higher status if you uplift several other species, and do it well, as described in the books.

[21:12] <Brenda> Uplift - are you talking about Brin's books?

[21:12] <raja99> HarryRed, You mean like us and computers? ;-)

[21:12] <SteveS> Yup.

[21:13] <raja99> Hi Brenda. HarryRed was talking about why we don’t have much Uplift in KnownSpace.

[21:13] <SteveS> But that requires an overall system that every species in the galaxy follows.

[21:13] <Nick_E> But wouldn't the Pak deduce the existence of their benefactors.. who then wind up as so much radioactive dust?

[21:13] <Harry_Red> That doesn’t work either Steve. The more species "elevated" the more threats to your race(s).

[21:13] <SteveS> Not enough of a semi-unified galactic civilization in Known Space.

[21:13] <TreeHugr> or the more friends.....

[21:13] <Nick_E> Enough to put of anyone else at the uplift game!

[21:13] <TreeHugr> The galaxy is a big place to unify if you don't have mind control.

[21:14] <Brenda> I like those very much. Either there would have to be some status or gain accrued to the uplifter, or the species doing the uplift would think differently than most of us. Known Space seems to have developed societies - more traditionally evolved by forces and history

[21:14] <Nick_E> yeah, it did depend on there being an actual "society" of species

[21:14] <Nesssus> Nick - someone here suggested tonight that the Pak's creators may already be dust.

[21:14] <Harry_Red> Nick, If the pak find their benefactors, the Pak disappear. ALL of them, and most likely all the planets and objects they've ever had contact with.

[21:14] <TreeHugr> Consider the UN, and that's just a small group all of the same species!

[21:15] <Nesssus> Maybe that is enough evidence that the Puppeteers didn't create them

[21:15] <Brenda> Good UN comment. What percentage of humans would participate in an uplift? Say dolphins?

[21:15] <Nick_E> Well yeah, I suppose the uplifters would have better tech and be prepared to "weed"

[21:15] <SteveS> That story about empty space nearby could answer the Fermi Paradox -- it's too much of a pain in the butt to try to fly ramjets into our area.

[21:15] <Nesssus> For the non-Brin fans here (me included) - what is an uplift?

[21:15] <TreeHugr> Giving dolphins Hands and a say in things....isn't that an uplift?

[21:16] <Nick_E> Yeah. Interesting article, ta Frank

[21:16] <Harry_Red> Yeah, do Consider the UN. It has turned into a bunch of Self-aggrandizing power hungry bureaurocrats with delusions of grandeur.

[21:16] <SteveS> Taking a fairly smart but not sapient species, like chimps or dolphins, and using genetic engineering and breeding techniques to make them sapient.

[21:16] <Nick_E> Hate to admit it but it's been pretty far from being the basis of a world govt for quite a while

[21:17] <TreeHugr> Consider the Republic sessions in SW. Chaos is a moment away.

[21:17] <Harry_Red> I have my own method of UPLIFT Nick, but for elements of the species I belong to.

[21:17] <Brenda> Yes, that's right. Uplift is helping a species gain sentience. We haven't even done particularly well on race yet - the fraicans are perfectly sentient, but we're casually letting them die of AIDS.

[21:17] <Nick_E> :-)

[21:17] <Brenda> Africans - sorry. I can't help but think it's deep-rooted racism that lets us ignore that. Of course, they have no oil.

[21:18] <TreeHugr> nuts

[21:18] <Harry_Red> Steve, there is a project to combine Human and Chimp DNA in a foetus. If I were a Chimp, I'd STRONGLY object!

[21:18] * SteveS chuckles

[21:18] <Nick_E> Opps, that smiley was to Franks comment, not about AIDs!

[21:18] <Nesssus> What is the point of that experiment?

[21:19] <TreeHugr> Yeah, sounds like a downgrade!

[21:19] *** raja99 has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[21:19] <Harry_Red> Brenda, More Africans are dieing of actions by other Africans than by Aids. In the CONGO, Cannibalism has surfaced... Again.

[21:19] <Nick_E> Precisely why Zimbabwe and all their other unpleasant regimes left to get on with it

[21:19] <SteveS> The Western countries that colonized Africa screwed things up. If they hadn't gone in at all, or hadn't pulled out overnight, things wouldn't be nearly as bad.

[21:20] <TreeHugr> Only thing that will help Africa deal with AIDS is education, and they get that. "Not responsible for advice not taken."

[21:20] <Nesssus> That was mainly the French though, wasn't it.

[21:20] <Harry_Red> Brenda, It's not OIL at the cause of everything...

[21:20] <Brenda> Yuck. I’ve just noticed that we most like to solve problems where we gain directly. I'm a touch cynical about our govt's choice lately.

[21:20] <TreeHugr> Anyway, about the Pak.....

[21:20] <Nesssus> There are loads of African Nations where French is still a second language

[21:20] <Nick_E> Plenty of mileage in alternate history stories there

[21:20] <SteveS> If only their guilty consciences had told them to build workable countries there, instead of just leaving a bunch of shitholes.

[21:20] <Nick_E> MAi oui

[21:21] <Brenda> Sure - Steve wrote a great alternate history - Lion's Blood has some interesting points in it.

[21:21] <Nick_E> Yeah, such a mess when a colonial power just walks away :-(

[21:21] <Harry_Red> They've been "EDUCATING" Africans on Aids since it started showing up big time. The Africans would rather rape 8 yo Virgins as PURITY will cure aids... Like the SPIRTUAL LEADER/WITCH DOCTOR tells them.

[21:21] <Nesssus> Yes... about the Pak....

[21:22] <Nick_E> Oooh. Have to check that out. Steve as in Barnes?

[21:22] *** raja99 has joined #knownspace

[21:22] <Nesssus> Hi raja99

[21:22] <SteveS> Hello again, raja!

[21:22] <Brenda> I agree - back to PAK - or anything else!

[21:22] <Nesssus> I thought Brenda might have meant Sloan<g>

[21:22] <Harry_Red> WB Raja.

[21:22] <TreeHugr> The Puppeteers don't hesitate to meddle with other sentients. I can see them doing something to make the Pak less of a risk, but more...?

[21:22] <Nick_E> Well, that’s why I asked!

[21:22] <raja99> Hi again folks.

[21:22] <Brenda> Yes, Steven as in Barnes - two books now in that world - "Lion's Blood" and "Zulu Heart"

[21:23] <SteveS> Nope. The alternate history I thought of would have Alexander the Great taught by Archimedes instead of Aristotle.

[21:23] <Brenda> Cool idea SteveS

[21:23] <Nick_E> Yes

[21:23] <Nesssus> As for Uplifting the Pak, the key candidates are still the Outsiders. The Slavers would have been too long dead

[21:23] <Harry_Red> An Engineer instead of a politician Steve? Yeah!

[21:23] <SteveS> Giving Alexander some background in democracy and actual science.

[21:24] <SteveS> Maybe he'd have founded a constitutional monarchy that would last, and evolve into something better.

[21:24] <Nick_E> Trouble is, the Outsiders end up being the obvious candidates whenever an "outside" influence is postulated. Figures I suppose!

[21:24] <Harry_Red> There is no discernable reason for the Outsiders to Meddle like that.

[21:24] <TreeHugr> How old is the Pak race?

[21:24] <Brenda> Steve does change Alexander's history, but the books are set in colonial America, known alternately as "Bilalistan"

[21:24] <raja99> Nesssus, I agree the Outsiders would be the best candidates. They've been to the Core and back, and they certainly have the tech.

[21:25] <TreeHugr> Thing about Outsiders is, their motives are unknowable, they're that different.

[21:25] <SteveS> At worst, Outsider meddling would probably make better customers.

[21:25] <Nesssus> When I re-read protector recently - I was surprised that Psstok's ship was classed as an Outsider by the Belters who detected is approach

[21:25] <SeanS> I seem to recall that the library was in existence for millions of years

[21:25] <Harry_Red> Core and back MANY times.

[21:25] <Brenda> I'm not as good in known space as you all are, actually, but weren't the Outsiders traders? Think of Vinge's traders - they do a form of uplift.

[21:25] <Nick_E> That’s what bothers me. They are so alien to their trade clients, that other than revenue, one wonders what the motivation would be (hence all the speculation)

[21:26] <TreeHugr> And how old are the Puppeteers? We have reason to believe the Outsiders are the oldest around.

[21:26] <raja99> HarryRed, right. Maybe the Outsiders created the Pak very early on, and something went wrong, so now they avoid any connection?

[21:26] <Nesssus> They definitely uplifted humanity by selling the hyperdrive to the colony We Made It

[21:26] <SteveS> They weren't confused about Phssthpok's species. They called ever alien an Outsider in those days.

[21:26] <Brenda> The mere choice of what to trade is a choice about uplift - what tech do you give to who?

[21:26] <Harry_Red> The PAK don't trade. To trade, you have to admit that you have something in common with another race. No evidence of the PAK admitting to that.

[21:27] <Nick_E> So, why do Outsiders trade?

[21:27] <Nesssus> That question will cost you 20 trillion stars

[21:27] <TreeHugr> Maybe they wanted a sentient race at the core for their own purposes there, but the core environment screwed the deal.

[21:27] <Harry_Red> Acquisition of Data.

[21:27] <Brenda> Don't know - have to do re-read some books.....

[21:27] <SteveS> To gather information. Now, what do they want all that information for?

[21:27] <Nick_E> of course, let me get my wallet ;-)

[21:27] <SteveS> :-)

[21:28] <raja99> SteveS, maybe the Outsiders are somebody else's computer system that got free? ( half ;)

[21:28] <Nesssus> Blame Microsoft!

[21:28] <SteveS> Maybe.

[21:28] <Nick_E> Boredom? Follow starseeds and do the thermoelectric thing, not much of a life

[21:28] <SteveS> GTF -- General Tentacle Fault.

[21:28] <SteveS> :-)

[21:28] *** Nick_E has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[21:28] <Brenda> Got to go - nice to visit. Have fun all!

[21:28] <Harry_Red> Raja, It would not be in the interest of the outsiders to create a race living at temperatures that would be instantly fatal to Outsiders.

[21:29] <Nesssus> Unless they are Starseeds and need to follow them for their reproductive cycles

[21:29] <Nesssus> Bye Brenda!!

[21:29] <SteveS> Unless they wanted somebody who could gather info for them in that part of the Galaxy.

[21:29] *** Brenda has quit IRC (Leaving)

[21:29] <Nesssus> Nice seeing you here

[21:29] <SeanS> how old was the library? Phssthpok never knew, and never wondered. But the section on space travel was 3 million years old.

[21:29] <raja99> Harry, au contraire -- a tool that works in regimes that Outsiders can't live in seems useful to me.

[21:29] <raja99> We build tools to help us do things we can't otherwise do.

[21:29] <Nesssus> I'm actually surprised that the species lasted 3 million years

[21:30] <raja99> But making them paranoid and genocical sounds like bad tool design ;)

[21:30] <TreeHugr> Maybe those tendencies were weaker before.

[21:30] <TreeHugr> Anyone who wasn't paranoid enough got blown out of the gene pool.

[21:30] <SteveS> Maybe they developed the TOL and the TOL virus in space, then sent a probe to the Pak homeworld to start the process.

[21:30] <Harry_Red> Nick, there is MUCH about the outsiders we don't know., And Korbizanski observed that we can never see more than a thin surface veneer of things. Doubly true with anything as Alien as outsiders.

[21:31] <Harry_Red> Adios Brenda

[21:31] <Harry_Red> Raja, a TOOL yes, and intelligent tool good enough to wonder about the environment around it? I don't think so.

[21:32] <Nesssus> back in a while

[21:32] *** Nesssus is now known as NesssusAF

[21:32] <TreeHugr> yeah, a tool that decides to kill al your other tools would be bad.

[21:32] <SteveS> :-)

[21:33] <TreeHugr> You've got all your tools set up in the different parts of your shop, and one day you go in and find the woodworking stuff has taken out the auto tools.

[21:34] <raja99> Harry, hmm maybe. I think intelligence is a useful thing to have in a tool, but then I'm a computer geek. I can easily see it getting away from you.

[21:34] <Harry_Red> A tool that kills off potential trade partners is not good either.

[21:34] <Harry_Red> BRB

[21:34] <TreeHugr> If the Pak interfered enough with the outsiders, they'd be history.

[21:34] <TreeHugr> Of course, we assume that, being old and high-tech, the Outsiders are also powerful and dangerous.

[21:35] <TreeHugr> Might be they have no such power.

[21:35] <raja99> TreeHugr, given that we haven't seen any technological limits on the Outsiders, I think they'd be very dangerous if annoyed.

[21:35] <SteveS> Reactionless drives + comets = bad news. :-)

[21:35] <TreeHugr> true

[21:35] <SeanS> I was about to say pretty much the same thing, Steve

[21:36] <raja99> If you take the Man-Kzin wars as canon, they may not even be limited to this universe....

[21:36] <SeanS> a rock coming in at a few thousand times the speed of light would not be good

[21:36] <TreeHugr> I do think they'd have no qualms about erasing any hotlife that got in their way, if they could.

[21:37] <TreeHugr> the puppeteers fear/respect the outsiders....that says a lot.

[21:37] <SteveS> Luckily, we're useful info sources... so far, at least.

[21:37] <TreeHugr> Good on us!

[21:37] <Krenon> OK. Walked four miles. changed, had breakfast.

[21:38] <SeanS> walked 4 miles? car broke? ;)

[21:38] <Krenon> No. I do it every morning.

[21:38] <SeanS> I was just kidding

[21:38] *** Nick_E has joined #knownspace

[21:38] <NesssusAF> Hi Nick_E

[21:38] <TreeHugr> His bedroom's in another town. ;-)

[21:38] <SeanS> lol

[21:38] <Harry_Red> Consider that anything as fragile as an outsider must have EXTREAMLY Sophisticated methods of dealing with radiation. I can see a radiation "FUNNLE" focused an anything the outsiders choose to target.

[21:39] <SteveS> Ouch!

[21:39] <TreeHugr> Thought they liked rads.

[21:39] <Krenon> Hi again Nick. Not often that there are two people here that I've met F2F. The other one has now gone though.

[21:40] <TreeHugr> They like the diff between heat and cold......I assumed they liked rads in naked space.

[21:40] <Nick_E> Got chucked off! Also had to attend to my better half, laid up with broken leg at the moment (and for next 16 weeks :-(

[21:40] <Nick_E> Who dat den?

[21:40] <TreeHugr> yikes. My sympathies to both of you, Nick.

[21:40] <Krenon> Oh dear! How is she taking it? How are you managing with the kids?

[21:40] <Harry_Red> they like a very small amount of radiation. as from the Elephant Story, they bask on shelves with their heads exposed to Nirad's sunlight and their tails in shadow.

[21:41] <Krenon> The other person I've met F2F - Brenda Cooper, who dropped by for a few minutes.

[21:41] <Krenon> You'll see pics of Larry, Carol, Brenda and me on larryniven.org

[21:42] <Nick_E> Bout as well as you'd expect! Work being very considerate about it at least, plenty of friends and family rallying round.

[21:42] <TreeHugr> Good deal.

[21:42] <Nick_E> Oh, of course Brenda. nice to see her here

[21:43] <Harry_Red> I spent an afternoon Chatting and playing guitar with Brenda. It was fun.

[21:43] <Krenon> She is a nice lady. Very pleasant, but she tended to monopolise Larry's attentions.

[21:43] <Nick_E> Be nice to your co-authors Writing SF 101

[21:44] <Harry_Red> Be ESPECIALLY nice to the Senior member of the writing team. Writing SF 104

[21:44] <Krenon> Actually she did need to see him, since they don't get together F2F much.

[21:45] <TreeHugr> We go to cons for fun; for them, it's a business trip, partly.

[21:45] <TreeHugr> lucky them!

[21:45] <Krenon> Oh Larry still goes for fun.

[21:45] <Harry_Red> I remember when Publishers would pay a writer's way to 5 conventions a year.

[21:45] <Krenon> He's always been a fan as well as a writer, I've been assured.

[21:45] <TreeHugr> But it's a business expense, too. Some job he's got! :-)

[21:46] <Krenon> Yeah, but if you could write as well as he can you'd be doing it too. Plenty of room at the top.

[21:46] <TreeHugr> I intend to try.

[21:46] <Krenon> Lotsa luck.

[21:47] <TreeHugr> Hey, anyone can write....it's that getting published bit....!

[21:47] <TreeHugr> :-)~

[21:47] <Harry_Red> it isn't writing that is the limiting ability these days. It's saying what the publishers want you to say in the way they want it said.

[21:47] <TreeHugr> Yep

[21:47] <Harry_Red> AND in a way that can still sell books.

[21:47] <TreeHugr> Yeah, got to sell it to them first.

[21:48] <TreeHugr> Buggers

[21:48] <raja99> I think the "sell books" is of greater interest to the publisher than saying what they want.

[21:48] <Krenon> I was under the impression that you could probably find some small publisher. It's getting known to the larger, better known publishers that's hard.

[21:48] <TreeHugr> Yeah, getting in print can be done.....once. The second one tells the tale, as it were.

[21:48] <Krenon> J. K. Rowling's first effort was knocked back by a publisher who is probably still banging his head against a wall.

[21:49] <TreeHugr> Heeheehee. Good.

[21:49] <Harry_Red> Raja, Appearance is more important to the decision makers at Publishing houses these days than Ability to Sell.

[21:50] <raja99> Harry, what do you mean by "Appearance"? The ability to have sexy pictures on the back cover?

[21:50] <Harry_Red> I just finished P'Terry's THE AMAZING MAURICE AND HIS EDUCATED RODENTS. MARVELOUS stuff, but would not be in print if it wasn't done by P'Terry.

[21:50] *** NesssusAF is now known as Nesssus

[21:51] <TreeHugr> Yeah, I've read a few books like that.

[21:51] <Harry_Red> The Ability to agree with the Attitudes of the Decision makers at the publishing house.

[21:51] <TreeHugr> Find the right publisher.

[21:52] <Harry_Red> There aren't that many big Publishers out there anymore, and In America, most of the editorial staff are graduates of the same schools and have much the same attitudes.

[21:52] <Harry_Red> That is NOT good.

[21:52] <Nick_E> Variety is everything

[21:53] <Harry_Red> It's not everything, but Variety is good.

[21:53] <raja99> Unless you're in the FCC ;)

[21:53] <Nick_E> well yeah

[21:53] <Harry_Red> Or NBC/CBS/FOX/ABC

[21:54] <Nick_E> Certainly when it comes to decent SF by all accounts

[21:54] <Nesssus> I was reading about one guy who wrote a novel and self-published it himself

[21:54] <TreeHugr> "You don't need to resist the urge to conform. There are people living just like you want to. Find them." -Larry Niven

[21:55] <TreeHugr> Same goes for publishers.

[21:55] <Nesssus> it's too long to go into detail here - I think I'll post it to the list - I thought it was quite a cute story

[21:55] <Krenon> "Easier said than done" - me

[21:55] <TreeHugr> The there's print-on-demand, e-publishing, etc.

[21:55] <Nick_E> So did it succeed and go on to better things?

[21:55] <Harry_Red> I know several who have done that. JOHN CARR did that with GREAT KINGS WAR and made a good chunk of change out of it.

[21:55] <Nesssus> I think this is the way forward

[21:55] <SteveS> There are also small print houses that handle the editing, proofreading, etc. themselves, then use a print on demand company to do the actual book printing.

[21:56] <TreeHugr> Yep

[21:56] <TreeHugr> we deal with them at work.

[21:56] <Nesssus> Even though Fallen Angels is freely available at Baen Free Library - people are still buying the newly released HB off Amazon

[21:56] <SteveS> Which is a pretty good compromise.

[21:56] <Harry_Red> PRINT N DEMAND and E-PUBLISHING look really small but are the best thing to come down the pike since moveable type.

[21:56] <TreeHugr> yeah

[21:56] <Nick_E> Well, there's no substitute for holding a good book

[21:57] <TreeHugr> true

[21:57] <Nesssus> there are still quite a lot of traditional people who like the feel of a good book in their hands

[21:57] <Nick_E> Does sound like a good idea

[21:57] <Krenon> POD, so I've heard, works much better in the US than in Australia, because there are so many more people in the US

[21:57] <Harry_Red> Truly, and you can still read a book after it gets thrown across a room.

[21:57] <TreeHugr> LOL

[21:57] <Nick_E> LOL!!

[21:57] <SteveS> Though you may have to do some page sorting first...

[21:57] <SteveS> :-)

[21:58] <Harry_Red> Truly.

[21:58] <raja99> Gotta run folks, nice chatting with you.

[21:58] <Nesssus> Bye Raja

[21:58] <SteveS> See ya, Raja!

[21:58] <TreeHugr> Bye

[21:58] <Nick_E> TTFn

[21:58] <Harry_Red> When Reading Heinlein's NUMBER OF THE BEAST, I bounced it off a wall, Then re-read it. Adios Raja.

[21:59] <Nesssus> Why did you throw it Frank?

[21:59] *** Nick_E has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[21:59] <Nesssus> Number of the Beast is one of Heinlein's best

[21:59] <Krenon> Try bouncing it 666 times though :-)

[21:59] <TreeHugr> It was Number of the Beast, you gotta ask?

[21:59] <Harry_Red> I found certain things in it "disturbing".

[21:59] <Nesssus> What?

[21:59] <TreeHugr> like the writing...?

[21:59] <SteveS> :-)

[22:00] <TreeHugr> Well, I'm older and....older, anyway. maybe I'll have another look at it.

[22:00] <Harry_Red> The actual number is 6 (Super) 6 (Super) 6

[22:00] <TreeHugr> ??

[22:00] <SteveS> 6^6^6

[22:00] <Krenon> ? You mean 6^6^6?

[22:00] <Nesssus> Didn't the character's reminisce that RW never made it into the fantasy worlds

[22:00] <Nesssus> I know they mentioned LOTR too

[22:00] <Krenon> The "number of the beast" in Revelation was 666.

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[22:01] <Nesssus> Hi Nick_E

[22:01] <Nesssus> 6 to the power is difficult to express repeatedly in typesetting.

[22:01] <Krenon> WB Nick

[22:01] <Harry_Red> The Writing was Ok, some of the concepts though... I think it was the events in OZ that ticked me off. THAT and Lazarus Long.

[22:01] <TreeHugr> oh

[22:01] <Nesssus> I guess the typesetters got lazy

[22:01] <Harry_Red> WB Nick.

[22:02] <Nick_E> Can't stay too much longer, on pay as you go account tonight

[22:02] <Nesssus> Oh, the ship having a tardis-like bathroom?

[22:02] * SteveS chuckles

[22:02] <Nick_E> Oh yeah. Just reread it recently. Lots of good stuff in there, but a lot of wading to do in places

[22:02] <Harry_Red> No, The social restraints of a turn of the century Moralist society FOR THE CHILDREN.

[22:03] <TreeHugr> In OZ?

[22:03] <Nesssus> The Oz thing was a great twist in that Novel - but when it gets written into Heinlein's Universe in his later novels it did get a bit much

[22:03] <Harry_Red> in OZ.

[22:03] <TreeHugr> Never got that far, I guess.

[22:03] <TreeHugr> far

[22:04] <Harry_Red> I try to see beyond the surface of things and an OZ Society would breed the most REPRESSES people imaginable.

[22:04] <Nick_E> Me neither. Ploughed through Job and kind of gave up after that

[22:04] <Harry_Red> I liked JOB.

[22:04] *** SigmundAu has quit IRC (Leaving)

[22:04] <Harry_Red> Adios Siggy

[22:04] <TreeHugr> Sigmund A. left...check for bombs!!

[22:05] <Nick_E> Maybe ought to give it another go. Bye Siggie

[22:05] <SteveS> It's been so long, I don't remember much about Job.

[22:05] <Nesssus> I had to pick up The Integral Trees about 3 or 4 times before I finally managed to read it all the way through. I was glad that I did though in the end

[22:05] <Nick_E> There weren't many more after Job were there?

[22:06] <Harry_Red> The basic concept that the Christian god is a Crazy Child in a long beard is a good one.

[22:06] <Nesssus> travels through a multiverse, where the only job to be had was Washing dishes!

[22:06] <Nick_E> Prolly some truth in that!

[22:06] <Harry_Red> What I found VASTLY Amusing was that of a white American Washing dishes in Mexico!

[22:06] <Nesssus> The Cat Who Walked Through Walls; To Sail Beyond Sunset - anyone name any more?

[22:06] <Nick_E> I liked the Integral Trees first time out

[22:07] <TreeHugr> me too

[22:07] <Nesssus> I just couldn't get my head around the environment at first

[22:07] <Nick_E> Yeah, those are the only 2 I can think of. Not read them tho'

[22:07] <Harry_Red> The Cat was kind of Ok, TO SAIL I just couldn't finish.

[22:07] <TreeHugr> I have some fear of heights and falling, but I liked the environs.

[22:07] <Nesssus> I always wanted to name a cat Pixel

[22:08] <Nick_E> Yeah, you needed to really think 3D

[22:08] <Harry_Red> Have your seen the strip PC and PIXEL?

[22:08] <TreeHugr> "I know a little girl who can walk through walls." -- Professor X

[22:08] <Krenon> If you always wanted, why haven't you?

[22:08] <Krenon> wanted

[22:08] <TreeHugr> Name a mouse Pixel. be different!

[22:08] <Nesssus> Only ever had one Ginger cat - and Pixel didn't really suit him

[22:09] <Nick_E> Ours was called Gooseberry. Green eyes!

[22:09] <TreeHugr> Other cats would have beat him up?

[22:09] <Nesssus> Well I have a rabbit named "Simba".

[22:09] <Nick_E> O...kay

[22:09] <TreeHugr> :-) I like it.

[22:10] <Harry_Red> BTW, one of the latest snack foods here in the US is GUACAMOLE flavoured Tortilla Chips. MADE WITH "REAL AVACADOS"

[22:10] <Nick_E> Why not

[22:10] <TreeHugr> Big, nasty pointed teeth?

[22:10] <Nesssus> No - a lion head cross

[22:10] <Krenon> Swahili for lion. What's Swahili for rabbit?

[22:10] <Nesssus> cookpot?

[22:10] <TreeHugr> Oh!

[22:10] <Nick_E> aye like the MPANTHG one?

[22:11] <Harry_Red> I THINK I MADE ANOTHER CHANGE IN THE UNIVERSE, OR AT LEAST THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT...

[22:11] <TreeHugr> What have you done, Harry??

[22:11] <Krenon> Caps lock on

[22:11] <Nick_E> Don't ask! Well, alright, do

[22:11] <TreeHugr> I make a change in the world every day. I refuse to get off!

[22:12] <Nesssus> maybe he's referring to the avocado flavoured tortillas?

[22:12] <Nick_E> Nice one

[22:12] <TreeHugr> Good bumper sticker, that.

[22:12] <TreeHugr> sticker....dang fingers

[22:12] <TreeHugr> So what did you do, frank?

[22:12] <SeanS> he's typing ;)

[22:13] <TreeHugr> oh

[22:13] <Nick_E> That'd do it!

[22:13] <Nesssus> Maybe he's searching for the caps lock key!

[22:13] <SeanS> could be that as well, Nesssus

[22:13] <Harry_Red> I showed a rather talented Black Muslim that it was the ARABS and Islamics that enslaved his people, Invented SWAHILLI and are still involved in the Slave Trade. he said that he was going to start organizing things about that. He's talented. CEO of a small but successful black orientated business, has published a text book on economics and the Black community... A good fellow.

[22:13] <SeanS> see... he was typing

[22:14] <SteveS> :-)

[22:14] <TreeHugr> Aha

[22:14] <TreeHugr> Interesting

[22:14] <Harry_Red> Yeah, he's the type that takes on problems and finds solutions for them

[22:15] <Nick_E> S' what the world needs

[22:15] <TreeHugr> Playing Puppeteer, eh? Good job, though. Hope he does something about it.

[22:16] <Harry_Red> Well, he just might do something about the MUSLEM BS in America, he's also quite tough.

[22:16] <TreeHugr> Do what?

[22:16] <Harry_Red> No, Not playing Puppeteer, Dispelling Popular MYTH/LIES.

[22:16] <SeanS> lot of those

[22:17] <SeanS> myth/lies that is

[22:17] <TreeHugr> Putting the truth in the right ear at the right time, I meant.

[22:17] <Nick_E> Of which there are plenty unfortunately

[22:17] <Harry_Red> Cut into it deeply. and Maybe show the Muslim Leadership for the self-seeking Bastards they are.

[22:18] <TreeHugr> I wish someone would show some of them the parts of the Koran that oppose violence.

[22:18] <SteveS> Yup, like all the dictator ass Farakkhan has kissed.

[22:18] <Nesssus> Shall we get off the Political/Religious soapbox and back to Niven?

[22:18] <TreeHugr> ok

[22:18] <Nick_E> Oh yes please

[22:18] <SteveS> :-)

[22:18] <Harry_Red> Well, The time seems to be right for that in America. Now, Common Europe has a whole bunch of different myths to deal with. Much beyond my abilities however.

[22:18] <TreeHugr> Any Muslims in KS? ;-)

[22:18] <Nesssus> no

[22:19] <TreeHugr> cool

[22:19] <Harry_Red> There are in CODOMINUM Space though.

[22:19] <TreeHugr> What can the Puppeteers do to defuse the Pak problem?

[22:19] <SteveS> Mote, yes.

[22:19] <SeanS> that’s one thing I like about Niven, the only church you hear about is the church of finagle... whose prophet is Murphy

[22:19] <Krenon> What about the Kdaptists?

[22:19] <Nesssus> I think that by the year 2600, most Religions have timed themselves out

[22:19] <Nick_E> So. Could you dick about with the sequence of TOL to produce a more docile Pak? Seems the Puppeteers would have done that already

[22:19] <Nesssus> That's Kzinti

[22:19] <TreeHugr> Silly kitties.

[22:20] <Krenon> So?

[22:20] <SeanS> forgot about the Kdaptists

[22:20] <Nesssus> If they did that the Pak would become aware of them and annihilate them all

[22:20] <Harry_Red> I don't think they can DEFUSE the PAK Problem... However, they must think that a combination of HJUMAN, KZIN,KDATLAYNO, TRINOC can.

[22:20] <TreeHugr> Or just run the Kzin and Humans together till they cooperate, then have the Pak cross their path....

[22:20] <Nick_E> Hmmmm

[22:21] <TreeHugr> But the Pak found Earth before the Kzin, right?

[22:21] <Nick_E> But the Pak did before we met the Kzinti

[22:21] <Nick_E> Bout to get chucked off again. May see you later

[22:21] <Harry_Red> The PAK did, but not in force.

[22:21] <Harry_Red> Adios Nick. Have a good one.

[22:21] *** Nick_E has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[22:21] <SteveS> See ya, Nick!

[22:22] <Harry_Red> It must be difficult for Nick. Having to keep putting quarters into his computer.

[22:22] <SteveS> :-)

[22:22] <TreeHugr> LOL

[22:22] <Nesssus> That's dial up services in the UK

[22:22] <Harry_Red> Hmmm, There's a story in that I think.

[22:23] <Krenon> It's not the easiest thing with 4 kids and a wife with a broken leg either.

[22:23] <Harry_Red> That too. I do Wish him well.

[22:23] <TreeHugr> aye

[22:23] <Nesssus> laid up for 16 weeks - that's got to be a bad break

[22:23] <Krenon> I've met his wife.

[22:23] <Harry_Red> Bad Break indeed !\

[22:23] <SeanS> no puns intended?

[22:24] <Nesssus> when/where did you meet her Ted?

[22:24] <Nesssus> I mean, Oxford's not your usual stomping ground

[22:24] <Krenon> Her name is Joy, which isn't exactly the situation currently, to continue in the pun vein

[22:25] <Harry_Red> Strangely enough, I can see ISLAMIC exploration of Space... Just not ARAB exploration. The KURDS for Example.

[22:25] <SeanS> hehe

[22:25] <Krenon> I met Nick in Oxon in 1996

[22:25] <Krenon> Bloxham, to be precise, which is where he lives.

[22:25] <Harry_Red> I'd like to meet Nick F2F. He's got the right kind of mind!

[22:25] <Krenon> He is a big, hairy, genial Pom. Very nice.

[22:26] <SteveS> :-)

[22:26] <Harry_Red> I've met a few like that. BTW, what exactly is the meaning of POM? I know it's used for ENGLISHMAN but Why??

[22:26] <Nesssus> so am I a big-haired genial Pom too?

[22:26] <Krenon> I think it comes from the French for apple but I don't know why.

[22:27] <Krenon> You are not big though. I happen to know you're about 5 ft 3

[22:27] <Krenon> ft

[22:27] <Harry_Red> Worth looking into I think. A G*R*E*A*T Trivia question

[22:27] <TreeHugr> I'm sitting here thinking, Pom? Pomeranian....?

[22:27] <Krenon> Nick's face is hairy. Yours is not

[22:27] <Nesssus> yeah - but I have big hair!

[22:28] <Harry_Red> Poor Me?

[22:28] <TreeHugr> Porn?

[22:28] <Krenon> No.

[22:28] <Harry_Red> It's POM not POPN.

[22:28] <Harry_Red> PON.

[22:28] <TreeHugr> Pom looks like Porn, to my twisted mind.

[22:28] <Krenon> As in Pommy Bastard - popular Australian expression

[22:28] <SteveS> Yeah it does, now that you mention it. :-)

[22:28] <Harry_Red> Everything looks like Porn to your twisted mind...

[22:29] <TreeHugr> True enough...and the cat backs away from my feet....!

[22:29] <Harry_Red> But why POMMY Ted?

[22:29] <SteveS> LOL

[22:29] <Krenon> Don't know.

[22:29] <TreeHugr> Oh, I dripped ice water on him.

[22:30] <Krenon> Why YANKEE?

[22:30] <Harry_Red> Like I said. POM/POMMY is worth looking into.

[22:30] <TreeHugr> Pomegranate?

[22:30] <SteveS> Another good question.

[22:30] <Krenon> I know it referred to the Union but that's all

[22:30] <TreeHugr> sp?

[22:30] <Krenon> Definitely Yankee

[22:31] <SteveS> It specifically means New Englanders, but I have no idea what the origin is.

[22:31] <TreeHugr> So where'd Yankee come from?

[22:31] <TreeHugr> oh

[22:31] <SeanS> the British called the colonist Yankee doodles... it was a slang term

[22:31] <TreeHugr> I used to think Yankee meant Northerners.

[22:31] <Harry_Red> Yankees is explainable. A YANKEE back in Colonial days was one who drew water from wells and got paid for it. DUMB BRUTE Labour. A DOODLE was a Out at the Elbows Clothes horse.

[22:31] <Krenon> That is getting no nearer the meaning though

[22:32] <TreeHugr> Aha

[22:32] <SeanS> today, Yankee means a northerner

[22:32] <SteveS> It also means Northerners.

[22:32] <Harry_Red> It also means Americans.

[22:32] <Nesssus> we have Brummies

[22:32] <TreeHugr> Thought it meant New Englanders only.

[22:32] <Nesssus> Manchurians

[22:32] <Krenon> Ideomatically now. Not always.

[22:32] <SeanS> guess, it just depends on where you are located as to what it means ;)

[22:33] <SteveS> Yup. :-)

[22:33] <SeanS> to me here in Kentucky, it means people further north than me

[22:33] <Harry_Red> I know a Georgian that got very insulted when Called a YANKEE in Europe. His Retort? I come from GEORIGA I'M NOT a Yankee. Then got Non-Plussed when asked if he came from anywhere near KIEV!

[22:33] <TreeHugr> True. Go to England with a name tag that says, "Hi, I'm Randy!"

[22:34] <SeanS> lol, treehugr

[22:34] <SeanS> sounds like some people I know from Georgia, frank

[22:35] <Harry_Red> I watch the expression on an American's face when a Bird asks him to Knock her up!

[22:35] <TreeHugr> LOL

[22:35] <SteveS> What does it mean in the UK?

[22:35] <Krenon> That name tag was a serious problem with a certain young lady once, or so I heard. Probably an urban myth though

[22:35] <Harry_Red> yeah, he was rather typical in many ways Steve

[22:35] <Harry_Red> SENE!

[22:35] <Nesssus> What does what mean Steve?

[22:35] <Harry_Red> Dam, I need my meds!

[22:35] <SeanS> try again ;)

[22:36] <Krenon> To "knock up" means awaken in US and get pregnant in UK, right?

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[22:36] <Nesssus> Hi Nick_E

[22:36] <SteveS> What does "Knock her up" mean? It means impregnate here.

[22:36] <Harry_Red> SEAN!

[22:36] <Nesssus> Same here

[22:36] <SeanS> knock up means to impregnate here

[22:36] <Krenon> Ah. Wrong way around. I better remember that :-)

[22:36] <Harry_Red> It means to come around and visit. Which could result in the same thing.

[22:36] <Nick_E> Whoa! What did I miss? ;-)

[22:36] <Krenon> You might also like to discuss "fanny"

[22:37] <SeanS> ah

[22:37] <Nick_E> :-)

[22:37] <Harry_Red> I'm looking for the derivation of POM/POMMY

[22:37] <Nick_E> Pomegranates or something?

[22:37] <SteveS> Or wet nap/nappy.

[22:37] <Harry_Red> Or COOKIES

[22:37] <TreeHugr> I love to discuss fanny.

[22:37] <Nick_E> Naughty!

[22:38] <Krenon> Well have a care if you ever go to England or Australia because the meaning is rather different.

[22:38] <Harry_Red> It's derogatory OZ/KIWI Slang for an ENGLISHMAN Nick, but it must have a root someplace.

[22:38] <Krenon> Careful of the word "root" too!

[22:38] <Nick_E> Yeah, that’s what I was getting at

[22:38] <TreeHugr> Ok, what's fanny mean there? And wet nap/nappy and cookies?

[22:38] <TreeHugr> Root I can guess.

[22:38] <Nesssus> root? What double meaning does that have?

[22:39] <SeanS> part of a tree or maleness

[22:39] <SeanS> to be polite

[22:39] <TreeHugr> Talk about your tree-of-life root...!

[22:39] <SeanS> lol

[22:39] <Nick_E> Sheila "You do love me Bruce?". Bruce, "I'm rootin; ya aren't I?"

[22:39] <Nesssus> oh never heard it called that before!

[22:39] <TreeHugr> What means to be polite?

[22:39] <SteveS> I heard a story about a Brit and a bunch of his American friends at a barbeque place in the US, and the weird looks he gave them when they asked for wet naps.

[22:39] <TreeHugr> lol

[22:40] <Krenon> It is commonly used to mean copulate in Australia. A certain American woman who went to an Australian football march found out to her embarrassment that we don't use it to mean "barrack".

[22:40] <Krenon> match

[22:40] <SeanS> ok, what does wet nap mean for ya then

[22:40] <SteveS> A wet nap is a moistened towelette here, and a nappy is a diaper in the UK.

[22:40] <SeanS> ah

[22:40] <Nick_E> No nappy is nappy . Diaper is US

[22:40] <Krenon> But we also recognise the word diaper.

[22:40] <Nesssus> I still like Thongs myself!

[22:40] <Krenon> OK. We're more merkin that you :-)

[22:41] <SeanS> I love learning things like this so I am not a moron overseas

[22:41] <SeanS> or as much of one that it

[22:41] <SeanS> is

[22:41] <TreeHugr> Messy, Nesssus!

[22:41] <SteveS> :-)

[22:41] <Nesssus> Thongs are sandals in .AU, but up-your-arse pants in the UK

[22:41] <SteveS> And both here.

[22:41] <Krenon> arse = ass

[22:41] <Nick_E> Gagging for a Fag and some hot steaming Faggots anyone? (Cigarettes and meatballs in UK)

[22:41] <Nesssus> lol

[22:41] <SteveS> I didn't know about the meatballs.

[22:41] <SeanS> me either

[22:42] <TreeHugr> I'm not touching that one.

[22:42] <Krenon> Ah! I do know a bit about the etymology of that one. A faggot was a cut log for firewood so anything long and cylindrical.

[22:42] <SteveS> Oh yeah, that's right.

[22:42] <Nesssus> I remember Larry going on about wearing a "fanny pack" in his Albacon Trip report

[22:42] <Harry_Red> I have this tendency to ask about terms in common usage that I don't understand. That worked every place except near Bow Bells in London.

[22:42] <Nick_E> Brains Faggots in gravy. Never cared for them myself despite being quite happy with some of the other weird food discussed on the list

[22:42] <Krenon> BUM BAG

[22:43] <Krenon> oops

[22:43] <Harry_Red> Some how BUM BAG seems quite appropriate.

[22:43] <Nick_E> Yeah well, deepest darkest Cockney land that!

[22:44] <Nesssus> Yeah, but in the UK, "Fanny" is slang for a woman's parts.

[22:44] <Nesssus> I wondered quite literally what he was wearing!

[22:44] <Harry_Red> I could generally figure out what Cockney’s were going on about, once I remembered it was Rhyming Keys.

[22:44] <SeanS> fanny here is just a butt

[22:44] <Nick_E> Mind boggles

[22:44] <Krenon> Speaking of weird food and trying to get back to Niven: I wonder if a successful Bandersnatch hunt ended with their eating the bansersnatch's meat? I mean those things were supposed to be sapient.

[22:45] <SeanS> they are sapient

[22:45] <Nesssus> So are whales - it doesn't stop the Japs.

[22:45] <Nick_E> The barin at least was supposed to be tasty....for Thrint

[22:45] <Harry_Red> That was the point Ted, but NOT the Brain. HEINRICH would have Gagged at the thought.

[22:45] <Krenon> Remember the Bandersnatch hunters had a 60-40 chance of being killed.

[22:45] <SeanS> but the jinx people didn’t know till their writing was translated by greenburg <?> in world of ptaavs

[22:45] <Nick_E> Shudder...still have a problem with tuna

[22:46] <Krenon> As I recall the Bandersnatch hunting was according to the terms of a treaty between human and Bandersnatch

[22:46] <SeanS> that is true, Ted

[22:46] <Harry_Red> It still hasn't stopped the Japs, but WHALING is now severely curtailed in Japan. The RUSSIANS are still at it though.

[22:46] <Krenon> What's your problem with tuna?

[22:46] <Nick_E> The Thrint didn't know they were sapient spies. Never stopped the Glig (not KS tho')

[22:47] <Nesssus> yes - so I guess the Bandersnatchi legalised us to eat them

[22:47] <Krenon> Whitefood was what the Thrints called them

[22:47] <Nesssus> Dolphins getting caught in the Tuna nets

[22:47] <Harry_Red> An excellent form of Population control for both species on Jinx as I see it.

[22:47] <Krenon> Oh. But tuna can be caught on long lines too and I don't think dolphins would.

[22:48] <Nick_E> Dolphin by catch. Dolphin sold AS tuna. Supposedly controlled now, but still think twice about eating it. Used to love it too.

[22:48] <Krenon> Also there is a very big difference between Southern Bluefin, which is now almost an endangered species, and Yellowfin or Skipjack, which are still very common.

[22:48] <Nick_E> Yeah, but prejudices die hard. More's the pity

[22:49] <Harry_Red> American TUNA FISHERS now have Nets that Dolphin can get out of, but not the Japanese, Chinese Russians or French.

[22:49] <Nesssus> I thought Skipjack was just a brand name - not a type of fish

[22:49] <Krenon> It's definitely a species

[22:49] <SeanS> yep

[22:49] <Harry_Red> It's a Fish, a rather admirable one too.

[22:49] <Krenon> It has strange breeding habits.

[22:50] <Nick_E> Oh yeah, Tuna are amazing fish

[22:50] <Krenon> Do you know that Southern Bluefins are actually rather homiothermic (sp?)

[22:50] <Krenon> They maintain a body temperature above the environment.

[22:50] <Harry_Red> changing Sex according to temperature?

[22:51] <Krenon> No

[22:51] <Nick_E> Had heard something like that. God, I'm so long out of the marine biology thing!

[22:51] <SeanS> good translation frank

[22:51] <Krenon> Certain fish do change sex but not because of temperature.

[22:51] <Harry_Red> MACKRAL for one.

[22:51] <SeanS> is endothermic what you were looking for?

[22:51] <Nick_E> No. Several reef fish do it too

[22:51] <Krenon> No

[22:52] <Harry_Red> Exothermic?

[22:52] <SeanS> endo would be inside

[22:52] <SeanS> exo would be outside

[22:52] <SeanS> I think endothermic would work

[22:52] <Krenon> The two words often translated "cold blooded" and "warm blooded" are poilikothermic and homiothermic, or something similar.

[22:52] <Nick_E> Hometherms maintain internal temp regardless of outside. Poikilotherms don’t

[22:52] <Harry_Red> I keep in touch with it Nick. This is a good place for general science news: http://sciencedaily.com/

[22:52] <Krenon> poikilothermic that should be

[22:53] <Nesssus> Good night all. Hope you have fun with your fish

[22:53] <Harry_Red> Hmmm, does that mean that POIKIMON are....

[22:53] <Nesssus> I'm off to bed, but will stay connected to log

[22:53] <Nick_E> Oh don’t...!

[22:53] *** Nesssus is now known as Ness_log

[22:53] <Harry_Red> Adios Nessus. Have a good one.

[22:53] <Nick_E> Night Nesssus

[22:54] <SeanS> later Vash

[22:54] <Krenon> Goodnight Ness

[22:54] <TreeHugr> Bye Nesssus

[22:54] <TreeHugr> essusess

[22:54] <TreeHugr> So, how intelligent are dolphins, compared to, say, dogs and elephants?

[22:54] <Harry_Red> (Eating some GUACAMOLI flavoured tortilla chips. They're rather tasty!)

[22:55] <Krenon> I've heard that dolphins are roughly comparable with dogs.

[22:55] <Krenon> Which conflicts with certain known space "facts".

[22:55] <Nick_E> Better boogie bedwards as well, fat phone bill to come this month. Been fun as always and my 2 sons enjoyed reading some of if over my shoulder. Night Night.r!

[22:55] <Krenon> OK Nick. Put away some money for Interaction in 2005.

[22:55] <Harry_Red> Dolphins TOP, Dogs second (This list) and ElephantsTop herbivore.

[22:56] <Nick_E> Yeah better remember that Ted

[22:56] *** Nick_E has quit IRC (Leaving)

[22:56] <TreeHugr> Nick at night....night, Nick!

[22:56] <SeanS> my buddy max the lab is pretty smart it seems

[22:57] <Harry_Red> We really don't know how intelligent Dolphins are, just guesses. What we DO know is that Dolphins are as TRAINABLE as dogs and have better problem solving skills.

[22:57] <TreeHugr> What makes us sentient but them not? Whatever gives us more free will?

[22:57] <SeanS> speech apparently

[22:57] <Krenon> Whoo! Coming up to 8 am here.

[22:57] <Harry_Red> Too many people equate TRAINABLE as Smart. I've seen cats TRAIN dogs.

[22:58] <TreeHugr> Animals communicate, to some degree.

[22:58] <TreeHugr> We got thumbs, but so do raccoons.

[22:58] <Krenon> Hm .. I wonder if possums do.

[22:58] <SeanS> want to mess with a racoon? give him a sugar cube

[22:59] <SeanS> he will wash it before eating it, and it will dissolve leaving him holding nothing

[22:59] <Harry_Red> Come to think of it A Cat training a Dog is the only example of (other than man) Cross Species Communication that's truly documentable.

[22:59] <TreeHugr> or some fermented berries!

[22:59] <SteveS> Awwww! Poor racoon! LOL

[22:59] <Krenon> Possums would never think of washing anything.

[23:00] <Harry_Red> I've seen a Racoon eat dirt to get the Spilled whisky out of it.

[23:00] <SeanS> I have a picture somewhere of a squirrel holding onto a beer can

[23:00] <SeanS> I will have to find that

[23:00] <TreeHugr> Ants work with other bugs, don't they?

[23:00] <Krenon> Yeah, but they kill 'em first :-)

[23:00] <SeanS> in "a bugs life" I think

[23:01] <TreeHugr> No, no! They herd aphids.

[23:01] <Harry_Red> A friend of mine has one of a Squirrel with a beer can, drinking the beer out of a straw.

[23:01] <Harry_Red> Some Ants enslave other bugs, by Mimicking chemical keys.

[23:01] <SeanS> to get the pic, they tossed nuts soaked in whisky to the squirrel for a week

[23:02] <Krenon> I have seen a crow pick up a glass bottle with crusts of bread stuffed inside it, take it up to a suitable height and let it drop onto a rock. When it broke the crow retrieved the crusts.

[23:02] <SeanS> that’s good

[23:02] <TreeHugr> Gulls do that with shells.

[23:03] <Harry_Red> I knew a guy in Main who had a house with a rock roof by the seaside. He sold it after the first year. Seagulls were dropping Clams on the roof to break the shells.

[23:03] <Harry_Red> Maine!

[23:03] <Krenon> I think it learned by trial and error. Where I worked it was common for people to throw away bottles with crusts and maybe other edibles stuffed inside.

[23:03] <TreeHugr> Probably at dawn, too!

[23:04] <Krenon> We have noisy possums on the roof. Always at night. Nothing we can do. At least I have now kept them out of the inside of the roof cavity.

[23:05] <Harry_Red> One of the more interesting things to watch is the CRAB IN A JAR experiment with an OCTAPUS. They will unscrew the top to get the crab. They can even figure the difference between Rh and Lh screw tops too.

[23:05] <TreeHugr> I read once about some birds in England that learned to open milk bottles, or something like that. Odd thing is, the same species thousands of miles away also learned it, apparently at the same time.

[23:05] <Krenon> The wonders of the Internet ;-)

[23:05] <Harry_Red> Try an "ELECTRIC FENCE around the eaves Krenon.

[23:05] <TreeHugr> Seen that experiment, Frank. Very cool!

[23:06] <Krenon> I doubt that it would work. They jump from trees to the roof.

[23:06] <TreeHugr> Octopus are also very smart. Like wet outsiders!

[23:06] <Harry_Red> I could see an Oceanic "CIVALIZATION" run by octopi.

[23:07] <Harry_Red> Cut back the trees a bit, or lay down Grid wire and Charge that.

[23:07] <Krenon> I am inclined to think that the plural of octopus should be octopus. The word comes from Latin octo and pes, and the plural of pes is pedes.

[23:07] <Harry_Red> Thank you Ted.

[23:07] <Krenon> The trees would need to be cut back a real lot. I think I'll hack the possums.

[23:08] <Krenon> hack = put up with

[23:08] <Harry_Red> I have no "FORMAL" education but have gone in for GENERALIST in a big way. There are gaps.

[23:08] <TreeHugr> Oh, hack. Thought you meant, hack them instead of the trees.

[23:08] <Krenon> It's a point that has been argued. Same with platypus.

[23:08] <SeanS> remember, frank is an unemployed minstrel ;)

[23:09] <Krenon> Troubadour

[23:09] <SeanS> that works as well

[23:09] <Harry_Red> Wiring the trees would be a bit much, But you might want to watch the opossum for their trajectories then put up an electric Fence calculated to their best trajectory + 15%.

[23:10] <Harry_Red> Disabled Troubadour. I can no longer play.

[23:10] <SeanS> that sucks

[23:10] <TreeHugr> yeah

[23:11] <Harry_Red> yeah. Many people miss what I use to do so well. I even got a Job offer from a Large Local Hotel the other day. That hurt!

[23:11] <SteveS> I would imagine!

[23:11] <SeanS> no doubt

[23:11] <Harry_Red> Enough about me please.

[23:11] <SeanS> k

[23:12] <TreeHugr> Imagine a diver checking out an octopus lair, and finding little tools!

[23:12] <SeanS> I guess he would have to ink down his encounter

[23:12] <Krenon> If indeed they had lairs.

[23:12] <TreeHugr> Don't some have holes they live in?

[23:12] <SteveS> A nutcracker, for one thing.

[23:13] <Harry_Red> Worse, They capturing him and putting him in a cave and trying to communicate with him. Teaching him tricks till his air ran out!

[23:13] <Krenon> They live in any convenient hole, I think.

[23:13] <SeanS> I wouldn’t know.. marine biology has never been a hobby

[23:13] <Harry_Red> Some do, some don’t, but most find a Hollow in a reef for sleeping.

[23:14] <TreeHugr> So the diver swims up, wakes the octo, and it pulls a knife on him.

[23:14] <TreeHugr> octo

[23:14] <Krenon> pus

[23:14] <SteveS> Only one knife? :-)

[23:14] <TreeHugr> lol

[23:15] <Harry_Red> More like It pinions the Diver and strips off his tools. Octo has a quite serviceable BEAK for cutting. PLIERS would be a boon to them though. Suckers don't stick to some things.

[23:15] <TreeHugr> knives are good, distance weapon is better for the octo. A crossbow for multiple arms?

[23:15] <Harry_Red> Spear Gun? Yeah!

[23:16] <TreeHugr> Indeed. "Really guys, that thing stole my knife!"

[23:16] <Krenon> Anyone read Ian Fleming's original short story "Octopussy"?

[23:16] <Harry_Red> Yeah.

[23:16] <SeanS> no

[23:16] <TreeHugr> yep

[23:16] <SteveS> Nope.

[23:16] <Krenon> Not much related to the movie.

[23:16] <Krenon> The anti-hero of the story dies at the "hands" of the octopus.

[23:17] <Harry_Red> Strangely enough, I discovered IAN FLEMMING when Looking for ROCKET FICTION when I was 13 years old. MOON RAKER was in the cross Index file.

[23:17] <Krenon> :-)

[23:17] <SteveS> Ah.

[23:17] <Krenon> Moonraker was interesting too. Bond totally failed to get the girl.

[23:18] <TreeHugr> Casino Royale is pone of my fav Bond books.

[23:18] <TreeHugr> one. Damn fingers!

[23:18] <TreeHugr> lack of light

[23:18] <Krenon> Yes. It was well written and Bond was almost believable there.

[23:18] <Harry_Red> YEAH, but it was an interesting Chase. OCTAPII (Yes I know but like the term) have good problem solving skills and truly Learn. Not trainable but they LEARN.

[23:18] <TreeHugr> The torture scene was painful to read.

[23:19] <TreeHugr> Loved that he was saved by the KGB!

[23:19] <Krenon> Smersh

[23:19] <TreeHugr> yes

[23:19] <Krenon> An arm of the KGB one presumes.

[23:19] <TreeHugr> "We cannot see the end of the trouble you have caused." Great line.

[23:20] <Harry_Red> When I was in the Navy, The Movie Dr NO came out. Most of the guys on the ship thought it was one of those BAD British Comedies of the day and didn't show. The next night, they were Literally hanging from the Overhead. Some had rigged Bosun's chairs.

[23:20] <Krenon> Yeah. That guy didn't muck around. "GUILYT!" ::bang::

[23:20] <Krenon> GUILTY

[23:20] <Krenon> That is

[23:21] <SeanS> what ship?

[23:21] <Harry_Red> Russian Justice. Not enough if it in RUSSIA these days.

[23:21] <Krenon> Ah yes. Ursula Andress as Honey(chile)

[23:21] <SeanS> I probably ask this every time it comes up ;)

[23:21] <Krenon> And how many more movies later?

[23:21] <Harry_Red> A FRAM II Destroyer. O'BRIAN DD725.

[23:21] <Krenon> Over 20 at last count I think.

[23:21] <SeanS> I was on the America cv66

[23:22] <Harry_Red> IAN Fleming never saw the end to the trouble he had caused either.

[23:22] <Harry_Red> Good meeting you M8!

[23:22] <Krenon> True. One of Bond's early victims was Fleming himself.

[23:22] <SteveS> Cool!

[23:23] <Harry_Red> yeah Ted. He cried all the way to the bank. But it allowed him to write CHITTY CHITTY BANG BNG.

[23:23] <Krenon> Fleming wrote that?

[23:23] <SeanS> Fleming wrote chitty chitty bang bang?

[23:24] <Harry_Red> Yupper, and there's a G*O*O*D recipe for FUDGE at the back of the book.

[23:24] <SeanS> hmm

[23:25] <Harry_Red> Chitty Chitty is well worth the read IN THE ORIGINAL not the DISNEY Version.

[23:25] <TreeHugr> yeah

[23:25] <SeanS> I have only seen the movie

[23:25] <TreeHugr> another Bond car!

[23:25] <SeanS> I take that back... I did read the book

[23:26] <Harry_Red> One thing about Fleming, Subject matter aside, The man had STYLE in his writing.

[23:26] <SeanS> I remember something like pull lever, idiot

[23:26] <SteveS> Yeah, I remember reading the book, and not knowing there ever was a movie.

[23:26] <Harry_Red> Yeah a PUIRPLE light on the dash as I remember.

[23:26] <SteveS> I really only remember that the gadgets on the car were pretty cool.

[23:26] <Krenon> I have "The Spy Who Loved Me" by Ian Fleming, and a book of the same title which was the book of the movie. The only similarity is that there is someone named James Bond in both.

[23:27] <SteveS> He finally bagged me, the spy who shagged me!

[23:27] <Harry_Red> THE SPY WHO LOVED ME is a good collection it shows Fleming's talent for different forms.

[23:27] <Krenon> Never seen it.

[23:27] <SeanS> and then another line like ... pull lever, but no "idiot" this time

[23:27] <SeanS> but that is reaching way back into the back of my head

[23:28] <Krenon> If you're thinking of the movie, that had nothing at all to do with the book.

[23:28] <TreeHugr> Style indeed, Frank. The card game in Casino Royale is tense and exciting....and it's just a card game!

[23:28] <SeanS> I’m thinking of the book

[23:28] <Harry_Red> Also PUSH THEBUTTON on the green light in Gold letters.

[23:28] <SeanS> yep

[23:28] <Harry_Red> Yeah. Fleming was a rated bridge master.

[23:28] <SeanS> coming back to me some

[23:28] <Krenon> Yeah, but it does really capture the atmosphere of the high stakes gambling.

[23:29] <TreeHugr> Exactly.

[23:29] <TreeHugr> And the villain had it all on the line.

[23:29] <Harry_Red> You know much about Fleming's personal history?

[23:29] <Krenon> "le huit ............................ et le neuf!"

[23:29] <TreeHugr> no

[23:30] <Krenon> Anyone read Barrington Bailey's "The Grand Wheel"?

[23:30] <TreeHugr> nope

[23:30] <SeanS> I just heard he was a failed spy from the British secret service who made it big writing about spies... could be wrong

[23:30] <Harry_Red> Retired from Brit Secret Service as a Full RN Commander, Skin-dived as a Hobby, First SPYING he did was in RUSSIA in 1920.

[23:30] <Krenon> It's a futuristic fantasy based on gambling and luck

[23:31] <SeanS> also a star trek next gen episode

[23:31] <SeanS> casino Royale that is

[23:31] <Krenon> Oh. Never saw that. I was never a Trek completist.

[23:32] <TreeHugr> People, I have to go. Got stuff to do, and the evening is coming on fast. It's been fun, as usual. See you on the List!

[23:32] <Krenon> Back in 5

[23:32] <SeanS> later tree

[23:32] <Krenon> Bye

[23:32] *** TreeHugr has quit IRC (Leaving)

[23:32] <Harry_Red> Not FAILED. he came up with an Idea of recruiting Dutch Prostitutes for Information Gathering from German officers. He was really quite good at his Jog. and "Q", was a boyhood chum who invented improbable gadgets. Invented a working fountain pen that shot a .22 cartridge. The French and Dutch underground fond it quite useful.

[23:32] <SeanS> hmm

[23:33] <SteveS> Wow.

[23:33] <SeanS> like I said, that is what I heard and it is subject to correction

[23:34] <Harry_Red> Fleming took part in a Raid on a castle to recover Intelligence data and assassinate a high level German officer, He was wounded there, enough they retired him at war II's end. He also did some stuff at the Brit Embassy in Sweden as I understand.

[23:34] <SeanS> by the way Steve, I am going to try to kick your butt in trivia next weekend. if I am not boat riding that is

[23:35] <SteveS> Cool. I look forward to it.

[23:36] <Harry_Red> I don't polay, Fingers and system are both too slow.

[23:36] <SeanS> hehe, you and I are 1 and 2 anyway when I remember to show up, which I forgot to do last time

[23:37] <SteveS> D'oh! :-)

[23:37] <SeanS> except for the last 45 minutes or so and I still came in 3rd ;)

[23:37] <SteveS> Wow!

[23:37] <SteveS> :-)

[23:38] <SeanS> but, you are the best so I will try to topple you ;)

[23:38] <Harry_Red> Because he's there?

[23:38] <SeanS> of course

[23:38] <SteveS> I thought I looked an awful lot like Everest... ;-)

[23:39] <SeanS> lol

[23:39] <SeanS> its just all fun

[23:39] <Harry_Red> Interesting bit of Trivia for you. Other than Writer and Publisher, what was RYUDARD KIPLING's 3rd profession?

[23:39] <SteveS> Soldier in India?

[23:39] <SeanS> pimp?

[23:39] * SteveS chuckles

[23:39] <Harry_Red> He was never Military, his eyes were too bad for that.

[23:40] <Krenon> I'm sure I've heard but I've forgotten.

[23:40] <Harry_Red> SPY! He was head of STATION 'I" (for India" for over 30 years.

[23:40] <SeanS> I think you asked me this the other day but I don’t recall the answer

[23:40] <SteveS> Ah.

[23:40] <Krenon> Oh. No I hadn't heard that.

[23:40] <SeanS> yep

[23:41] <SeanS> chief of station is what they call it, I think

[23:41] <Harry_Red> That puts a whole new twist on the book KIM don't it? It's one of those Kids books that take on a whole new prospective when read as an adult.

[23:41] <Harry_Red> Right you are Sean.

[23:41] <SeanS> KIM or NIMH

[23:42] <SeanS> as in the rats of NIMH

[23:43] <SteveS> Speaking of Uplift... :-)

[23:46] <Harry_Red> there's a second of the NHIM books out. TIMMY TO THE RESCUE.

[23:46] <Harry_Red> NIMH!

[23:47] <SeanS> hehe

[23:47] <SteveS> I also caught the end of a movie sequel to the Don Bluth cartoon that I never knew existed.

[23:47] <SteveS> On TV a couple of months ago. Must have been a direct-to-video.

[23:48] <SeanS> oh, if anybody has a copy of the starblazers series, I would love to have it

[23:48] <SteveS> I'd like to see that myself. Surely there are Starship Yamato videos around.

[23:48] <Harry_Red> I'm waiting for the price on the B% episodes to drop. As it stands, I can't afford them.

[23:49] <SeanS> you can buy them for like 300 bucks per series out of starlog

[23:49] <SteveS> Yeah, that's one of the main purchases I'm hoping to get when I get a job.

[23:49] <Harry_Red> LOTS. Do a google search for those.

[23:49] <Harry_Red> You can buy them IN ENGFLISH from a Japanese site cheaper than that.

[23:50] <SeanS> I think I will get my movie provider to see if he can get them

[23:50] <SeanS> didn’t think about that till just now

[23:50] <SteveS> You're welcome. ;-)

[23:51] <SeanS> thank you

[23:51] <Harry_Red> My curse is that I'm always thinking. One of the reasons I use to drink was to turn the processors off.

[23:51] <SeanS> must of been the thought of my gf coming over that brought up the thought of the wave motion gun

[23:52] <Harry_Red> Wave Motion Gun?

[23:52] <SeanS> from starblazers

[23:53] <SeanS> spinal mount weapon on the yamato

[23:53] <Harry_Red> Oh. Not familiar with it, but am thinking in terms of a projectile moved by Wave Motion down a WAVE GUIDE.

[23:54] <SeanS> that would be a gauss weapon

[23:54] <Harry_Red> AH! I saw the movie a long time ago. STARSHIP YAMMATO. I liked it.

[23:54] <SeanS> I remember it as 3 seasons of cartoons

[23:54] <Harry_Red> I'm a closet GETTA ROBO, GETA ROBO G fan.

[23:55] <SeanS> nothing wrong with ultraman either

[23:55] <SeanS> using the beta capsule....

[23:55] <SeanS> damn, how much of a nerd am I

[23:55] <SteveS> :-)

[23:56] <Harry_Red> I had a TV show (Local Cable) and had Fred Patten as a guest, It took 15 Hrs to choose the ANAMIE from his collection and LOTS of time to Tape just the right clips. DIRTY PAIR is good also!]

[23:56] <SeanS> don’t remember dirty pair

[23:57] <SteveS> I've heard of it, but haven't seen it.

[23:57] <Harry_Red> hey, THAT'S UP TiGERLILLY (Woody Allen) was a DIRTY PAIR movie!

[23:57] <Harry_Red> Dirty Pair was about 2 freelance Fem Spies. it got pretty interesting.

[23:58] <SeanS> sounds like it might

[23:58] <Harry_Red> TIGERLILLY is WELL WORTH adding to your collection. Allen took this Japanese Spy Movies and wrote his own dialogue to it. VERY FUNNY. Arguably the funniest thing Allen ever did.

[23:59] <SeanS> my movie provider's truck is next door. hopefully he will drop by before he leaves

[23:59] <Harry_Red> Yeah Sean, Well, you know how girls Spy. /;-)

[23:59] <Krenon> Gotta go. Nice chat. Some Niven even! ;-)

[23:59] <SteveS> See ya, Ted!

[00:00] <SeanS> later Ted

[00:00] <Harry_Red> Adios Ted. have a good one.

[00:00] <Krenon> I'll stay on logging bur I won't be here. Bye

[00:00] <SeanS> k

[00:00] *** Krenon is now known as KrenonOut

[00:01] <Harry_Red> I had Steve Barns as a guest, also Kelly Fraes. REALY TOP QUALITY shows.

[00:01] <SteveS> Sounds really cool.

[00:01] <SeanS> by movie provider, I mean he brings me movies within a week of them hitting the theatre

[00:02] <Harry_Red> Does he have a patch over one eye and SAY AYA and ARRR a lot?

[00:02] <SteveS> LOL

[00:02] <SeanS> no, just a faster connection than my 28.8 dialup

[00:03] <SeanS> by the time I downloaded it at my speed, I could just go buy the dvd

[00:03] <SeanS> which I typically do anyway

[00:03] <SeanS> I just don’t like to wait

[00:05] <SteveS> I pictured some guy going to the movies with a camcorder. :-)

[00:06] <SeanS> yep

[00:06] <Harry_Red> More like some guy doing a deal with the projectionist and A Ground Glass Shadow Box.

[00:06] <Harry_Red> AND a CAMCORDER.

[00:07] <SeanS> in fact, my cd copy of X2 has the exit sign in it until he tightens the focus

[00:07] <SteveS> LOL

[00:07] <Harry_Red> *LOL* Yeah.

[00:08] <Harry_Red> If you haven't seen it There’s a DVD of THE WIZARD OF SPEED AND TIME out. GET IT!

[00:08] <SeanS> I know you all hate it but I have over 500 books on the laptop but they are all books that I have bought or will buy

[00:09] <SeanS> just easier to keep them on the laptop for when I want to read them

[00:10] <Harry_Red> Mike Jittlov (Wizard of speed and time) Is a LASFASIAN and friend of Larry's. THE MOVIE is VERY GOOD but he got S*C*R*E*W*E*D by the Hollywood establishment.

[00:10] <SeanS> that sucks

[00:10] <SeanS> but I will see if I can find the movie

[00:10] <Harry_Red> That's the world. It Sucks, there is no gravity.

[00:11] <SeanS> true

[00:11] <Harry_Red> Jittlov will get a cut on this one. When SPEED AND TIME Broke, it had standing lines for every performance Both in America and Europe.

[00:13] <Harry_Red> The Producer sold the European Disty rights out from under him and the Asian rights. The American rights disty limited it to1200 Copies for Theatre Distribution! and Worse, the VHS VIDEO was marked at $85. They did their best to kill it.

[00:14] <SeanS> hmm

[00:14] <SteveS> Wow. That's scary.

[00:14] <Harry_Red> That's HOLLYWOOD Steve. If it isn’t trash, they don't like it.

[00:15] <SeanS> good line... first rule when dealing with the devil... don’t

[00:16] <SteveS> There's a VHS but no DVD at Amazon.

[00:16] <Harry_Red> Jimmy Buffett figured out how to deal with Hollywood. You go to the California Nevada border and tell them you will throw them the Script when they throw YOU the MONEY.

[00:17] * SteveS chuckles

[00:17] <SeanS> I love JB

[00:19] <Harry_Red> yeah, He's got the right Idea. he's made his money doing something he loves, now he's living THE GOOD LIFE.

[00:19] <SeanS> have you read a pirate looks at 50?

[00:19] <Harry_Red> And STILL doing what he loves. Performing LIVE!

[00:19] <SeanS> I am reading it again

[00:20] <SeanS> never hear him on the radio but he sells out every show

[00:20] <Harry_Red> No, It's on my acquisition list. Tales of Margaritaville and JOE MERCHANT I have and occasionally re-read.

[00:20] <SeanS> I have seen him 3 times in concert

[00:21] <SeanS> I had a signed copy of margaritaville until my house burned down

[00:21] <SeanS> met him in margaritaville in key west

[00:21] <SeanS> great guy

[00:21] <Harry_Red> ONly7 once, but I met him in a local (Phoenix) Coffeehou8se. It was interesting.

[00:22] <Harry_Red> I suspect the MEDIA don’t like him because he doesn’t agree with them Politically, AND he has More talent than most. I'd LOVE to see DON'T STOP THE CARNIVAL!

[00:22] <SeanS> so would I

[00:22] <SeanS> frank, you and I should meet sometime

[00:23] <Harry_Red> Hmmm, I think I'll send an E-Mail to Carson about doing a DVD of that SHOW with Jimmy as Paperman... It would SELL BIGTIME.

[00:23] <Harry_Red> Truly Sean You're in Tenna right?

[00:24] <SeanS> Kentucky

[00:24] <SeanS> same thing except for the latitude

[00:24] <Harry_Red> Slink? BLETCH! Get SATTELITS and see the Files at jerrypournelle.com about setting it up.

[00:25] <Harry_Red> As you might recall, Arizona here. I can live with Kentucky. Good folks there.

[00:25] <Harry_Red> ARKINSAW Sucks BIGTIME though.

[00:25] <SteveS> :-)

[00:25] <SeanS> hehe

[00:26] <SteveS> I was born in Arkansas.

[00:26] <SteveS> But the place does suck.

[00:26] <SeanS> lol

[00:26] <Harry_Red> You had the good sense to get out though. /;-)

[00:26] <SeanS> I like ky

[00:26] <SteveS> There is nice scenery and natural resources, but the politics is even worse than Alabama.

[00:26] <Harry_Red> Anywhere near FRANKLIN COUNTY?

[00:26] <SeanS> we are the butt of some jokes but its better than most of Florida

[00:27] <SeanS> I am in Franklin county

[00:27] <Harry_Red> CHRIST FLORIDA? NYC in Shorts and FLipflops!

[00:27] <SteveS> Sounds about right. :-)

[00:27] <Harry_Red> You know it's history? Seiver and Franklin Freestate then?

[00:28] <SeanS> hmmm, apparently I don’t know the history of where I am better than you

[00:28] <SeanS> I live in big eddy

[00:30] <Harry_Red> I suggest you go to the local historical society and look it up. It's REALY interesting, and somewhat suppressed knowledge. people don't want to know what Penna, New York and Virginia did to the Free State of FRANKLIN.

[00:30] <Harry_Red> Or WHY for that matter.

[00:30] <SeanS> I know that Kentucky used to be known as Franklin

[00:30] <SeanS> or the area that is now ky and tenn

[00:31] <SeanS> I have a copy of the history of Franklin county

[00:31] <SeanS> last printed in 1902

[00:31] <SeanS> my copy anyway

[00:32] <Harry_Red> Sevier and a few friends tried to make a state based on the Principals that Ben Franklin set sown for statehood. The other states couldn't face the amount of freedom given to the people in a state like that.

[00:32] <SteveS> There's no mention of Franklin Free State in a google search. They really *did* keep it quiet!

[00:33] <Harry_Red> I have supersede more than Historian and History teacher by even knowing the NAME. Look up JOHN SEVIER on META CRAWLER or ALLNET.

[00:36] <Harry_Red> I got this: http://users.ev1.net/~dhoskins/maps.htm

[00:37] <SeanS> I am in Franklin county which was a part of Shelby, Metcalf, and woodford

[00:38] <Harry_Red> Broadcast radio SUX right now, putting on BUFFETT LIVE!

[00:38] <SeanS> where

[00:39] <SeanS> probably doesn’t matter at my pathetic connection speed

[00:39] <Harry_Red> On CD.

[00:39] <Harry_Red> FRUITCAKES!

[00:40] <SeanS> I think I have that one somewhere

[00:42] <Harry_Red> After the War: 1781-1826

[00:43] <SteveS> http://www.ls.net/~newriver/nc/wnc6.htm

[00:43] <Harry_Red> You are going to look real DEEP for FRANKLIN FREESTATE history. It's not a pretty story.

[00:47] <Harry_Red> There's a bit of discrepancy. No Carolina New York and PENNA sent troops into Franklin. It was also marked with a LOT of congressional double dealing and that report does not make any mention of Franklin being in existence for 7 years.

[00:48] <Harry_Red> Like I said, They don't want people to know what happened there to this Day!

[00:48] <SteveS> It's the closest thing I was able to dig up online.

[00:48] <Harry_Red> Let me dig a bit more.

[00:49] *** CrazyEddy has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

[00:49] <SteveS> Here's something: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~edwards/frank.html

[01:01] *** SeanS has quit IRC

[01:01] <Harry_Red> Oh my! I used DOGPILE and found a few that seem relevant.

[01:04] <Harry_Red> http://www.greeneville.com/community/history.htm

[01:04] <Harry_Red> Still with us Steve?

[01:05] <Harry_Red> Raja? Ignacio?

[01:05] <SteveS> I found that one earlier.

[01:05] <SteveS> And I never thought of checking dogpile, but it was a good idea.

[01:06] <SteveS> http://www.jcmpo.org/Funstuff/franklin.html

[01:06] <Harry_Red> Ok. Well, I've been on for slightly over 5 hrs now. Time for me to get a bit of rest.

[01:06] <Harry_Red> Adios all.

[01:07] <SteveS> OK. Night, Frank!

[01:08] <SteveS> I'll keep looking for sites.

[01:08] <Harry_Red> I think you'll be surprised by what you fine. For one, SLAVERY was forbidden there.

[01:08] <Harry_Red> Ok

[01:08] <SteveS> Interesting.

[01:09] <Harry_Red>


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1-GONE+++

[01:09] *** Harry_Red has left #knownspace

[01:09] * Ness_log waves bye-bye to Harry_Red *sob*

[01:40] *** Redflame has joined #knownspace

[01:40] <Ness_log> Hi Redflame

[01:41] <Redflame> Hello. Anyone still here?

[01:41] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Redflame

[01:50] <Redflame> I’ll hang out for awhile just in case anyone wakes up.

[02:04] <Redflame> Hanging around....

[02:05] *** KrenonOut is now known as Krenon

[02:05] <Krenon> Hi

[02:05] <Redflame> Hey!

[02:05] <Krenon> :-)

[02:05] <Krenon> Where were you?

[02:05] <Redflame> Have a nice chat? Topic looks fun.

[02:05] <Krenon> Oh, this and that. Do you imagine we kept to the subject?

[02:05] <Redflame> Didn't you see my post on where I was?

[02:06] <Krenon> In fact I don't remember any discussion on that subject.

[02:06] <Redflame> I went to the Museum of Natural Science, the place we took Niven when he was in town.

[02:06] <Krenon> To me or to the list?

[02:06] <Redflame> They had an Ancient Croc exhibit. I posted about it on the list, at the bottom of my last reminder.

[02:07] <Krenon> Oh. I probably saw the reminder and didn't go any further.

[02:07] <Redflame> This croc co-existed with the dinosaurs, probably dined on them, and was HUGE!

[02:07] <Redflame> We also saw an IMAX, one Peter and I had seen before, "back to the Cretaceous" I think. It was fun, but was a little scary to Clara.

[02:08] <Krenon> Wow! I should be going to our equivalent of that in a couple of weeks. Actually for a mini con, but it's inside the Australian Museum so we can go and look at the exhibits at lunchtime

[02:08] <Redflame> IT was opening day of the exhibit, and there were lost of tables of special activities for the kids. It was a really good day to go to the Museum.

[02:09] <Krenon> You didn't see around The Tech museum at San José, did you? That was very much for kids. Lots of hands on stuff.

[02:10] <Krenon> What are the kids doing now?

[02:10] <Redflame> ID shark fossils, take home petrified wood and shark fossils, pet snakes, see difference between coral snakes and non-poisonous similarly colored ones, make croc hats, plaster fossil replicas, see how bones are prepared, missed lots of really good ones. Just too much to do!

[02:10] <Redflame> Don't remember seeing the Tech museum at San Jose.

[02:11] <Krenon> We walked into the foyer and got lunch one day.

[02:11] <Krenon> It was just across the road and round the corner from the con center

[02:11] <Redflame> Clara is napping. She didn't really feel very good. She did manage to take in her last introductory lesson at Kuk Sool, then basically, Daddy carried her.

[02:11] <Redflame> Yes, I remember that now.

[02:12] <Redflame> Keegan is reading his bible that they gave him at Vacation Bible School!

[02:12] <Krenon> What version is that?

[02:12] <Redflame> I won't let him play on the computer because he acted up at Kuk Sool. He was picking his nose while his instructor was telling him to do stuff, INSTEAD of doing what his instructor said, and he was really rude to another student.

[02:14] <Redflame> Fine.

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[02:31] <Ness_log> Hi CrazyEddy

[02:31] <Ignacio> Is Ness_log a person?

[02:32] <Krenon> Yes. Nesssus heavily disguised as a log :-)

[02:32] <Ignacio> I thought it was a bot

[02:32] <Krenon> ChanServ is the only bot here.

[02:33] <Ignacio> Hi !

[02:33] <Krenon> Ah. Wait a bit. That Hi was a pre-programmed response.

[02:33] <Ignacio> That's what I was thinking

[02:34] <Krenon> Nesssus is probably asleep

[02:34] <Ignacio> I'm Ignacio, an Argentinean living in the USA , may I ask you where are you from?

[02:34] <Krenon> I'm in (and from) Sydney, Australia.

[02:35] <Krenon> Nesssus is in England, where it's now about 12.30 am.

[02:36] <Ignacio> Yes... Are you a big Known Space fan?

[02:37] <Krenon> Fairly big. I'm one of the larryniven.org webmasters.

[02:37] <Ignacio> Oh! yes, that qualifies as big :)

[02:38] <Ignacio> I was earlier in the chat, but it went over my head.. I only read Protector an (a looong time ago) Ringworld....

[02:38] <Ignacio> I'm planning to catch up, I started the "3 books of known space"

[02:38] <Ignacio> That's soon

[02:39] <Krenon> Ah yes. You need to have read most of Larry's books to keep up with this lot.

[02:39] <Krenon> However, don't let that deter you. As you noticed the discussion often gets off Niven.

[02:40] <Ignacio> I'm moderator of the "hardsf" Yahoo group... you may have heard that last month we discussed Protector...

[02:41] <Krenon> Yes. Nesssus (do you know her real name?) said she invited some hardsf listers.

[02:42] <Ignacio> Have to go now... Nice meeting you!

[02:42] <Krenon> OK. Catch you later.

[02:42] <Krenon> Bye

[02:43] *** Ignacio has quit IRC (Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com))

[02:49] *** Redflame has quit IRC (Leaving)

[02:50] <Krenon> Anyone here?

[02:50] * Krenon turns out the lights

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