Chat Log: October 5th 2002

Larry Niven was present for this chat, avoiding his wife's lace tea party!

Larry signed on as Fithp. To jump to his entrance, click here.

Session Start: Sat Oct 05 14:41:58 2002

[14:41] <Redflame> Hi Redflame

[14:42] <Redflame> Hi Harry

[14:42] <Redflame> Hi CrazyEddy

[14:42] <Redflame> Hi tom

[14:42] <Redflame> Have we met tom?

[14:45] <Redflame> Wake up! Larry Niven said he was going to come today. He will be here early, and not staying long.

[14:45] <Harry> Hi Red

[14:46] <Harry> He hasn't talked to me Red

[14:46] <Redflame> Redd, who hasn't talked to you? Tom?

[14:47] <CrazyEddy> Hey Harry, RF.

[14:48] <Redflame> Hey, Carazy

[14:48] <Redflame> The extra a is free!

[14:48] <Redflame> Hi Krenon

[14:49] <Krenon> Hi

[14:49] <Redflame> Ted!

[14:49] <CrazyEddy> Not at an insane price I hope?

[14:49] <CrazyEddy> Hey Krenon.

[14:49] <Krenon> Carol!

[14:49] <Redflame> Larry Niven said he was going to come today. He will be here early, and not staying long.

[14:49] <Redflame> Free a's today only!

[14:49] <Redflame> So, I'll be Caaaarol!

[14:49] <Krenon> OK. I'm here and I can tell you Sunday is on the way as it's got here :-)

[14:49] <Redflame> Good. Nice to know tomorrow is coming. :-)

[14:49] <Krenon> Huh?

[14:50] <Harry> Hi Ted

[14:50] <Krenon> Hi Frank

[14:50] <Redflame> Ted, I'd misspelled Crazy's name with an extra a, and we were being silly

[14:50] <Krenon> Hey, Frank, I saw Leslie at ConJosé.

[14:51] <Redflame> We are also wondering who tom is.

[14:51] <Krenon> Oh

[14:51] <Harry> Hi Eddie.

[14:51] <Redflame> SAW is the operative word. We weren't enjoying the ambiance in the sin pit.

[14:51] <Krenon> I wonder if tom might be a replacement bot for K9

[14:51] <Harry> Cool Ted. Did you enjoy meeting Leslie?

[14:51] <CrazyEddy> Harry: What's news?

[14:52] <Krenon> That'd true Frank. It was full of cigarette smoke, the only room that I encountered anywhere on my trip where anyone smoked.

[14:52] <Harry> Nothing big, except that America continues to stumble towards incompetent Empire.

[14:52] <Redflame> I never heard that there was going to be a new bot coming. And wouldn't Nessssus have had to have been in the room to install it?

[14:53] <Redflame> Really Ted? There wasn't even a smoking section at a restaurant that you had to walk through?

[14:53] <Harry> You should have said Hello from me to Leslie... I've told her about the Niven List and she's chatted with Carol

[14:53] <Krenon> Hmph

[14:54] <Krenon> We weren't really in a position to speak to her.

[14:54] <Harry> California is currently being run by Health-NAZIS.

[14:54] <Redflame> She was on the other side of the room, and we were near the door, where non-smokers could occasionally get a whiff of fresh air through the door.

[14:55] <Harry> A pity Ted. Leslie is interesting and fun.

[14:55] <Krenon> Carol, according to Kay there were NO rooms in California where smoking was permitted.

[14:55] <Redflame> Actually, I rather LIKE not having to be in smoky rooms. Let people smoke outside!

[14:55] <Harry> Strange that Hotels won't turn up the Air Cycle rate in a designated Smoking room

[14:56] <Krenon> I thought I was doing well to actually see her and hear her sing.

[14:56] <CrazyEddy> I'm not entirely sure tom is friendly.

[14:56] <Redflame> Crazy, you've been known not to talk during a chat!

[14:56] <Krenon> That hotel was full of parties. Carol and I took in at least half a dozen each night.

[14:56] <CrazyEddy> This is true.

[14:57] <Redflame> Hi SteveS

[14:57] <SteveS> Hi, all!

[14:57] <CrazyEddy> Hey Steve.

[14:57] <Krenon> Hi Steve

[14:58] <Redflame> Hi, Steve

[14:58] <CrazyEddy> Redflame: After years of takeovers on IRC, I'm a bit leery of these things though. :-)

[14:59] <Harry> Hi Steve

[14:59] <Redflame> Well, when we get a good bot, maybe we can start a new room with the bot in it, to help guard it for us when we aren't there.

[14:59] <Redflame> Steve, maybe you don't have a name typed in for your program to remember?

[15:00] <Redflame> Hi Miclantlicute

[15:00] <CrazyEddy> K9 should be up and running by now.

[15:01] <Miclantlicute> hi carnal!!!

[15:01] <Redflame> Tom is in Sydney, logging in from Known Space.

[15:01] <Krenon> Really!

[15:01] <SteveS> My nicks are filled in correctly, but the text boxes in the dialog are grayed out.

[15:01] <Miclantlicute> I´m miclantlicute god of the dead aztec

[15:01] <Redflame> Miclantilcute, have we met?

[15:01] <Harry> I drove to Phoenix yesterday... My car died on the way down. (Blown heater core) It took the money I was going to shop with to fix it. Facing High country winter without a heater is not a pleasant idea

[15:01] <Miclantlicute> yes

[15:02] <SteveS> Hi, Mic!

[15:02] <Miclantlicute> My god quetzalcoatl is the save

[15:02] <Redflame> Hi fithp

[15:02] <SteveS> AKA Wendal (sp?) Feathersnake.

[15:02] <Redflame> Glad you could make it, fithp!

[15:02] <SteveS> Hi, Larry!

[15:02] <Harry> Hi Fithp. How goes it?

[15:02] <fithp> Hi!

[15:03] <Miclantlicute> snake yes

[15:03] * CrazyEddy bows in awe.

[15:03] <Redflame> Miclantlicute is a feathersnake?

[15:03] <Harry> Hi Miclant

[15:03] <Krenon> Hi Larry.

[15:03] <Miclantlicute> is my god, god every aztec

[15:03] <Miclantlicute> dios jaguar

[15:03] <Redflame> Get those leaves out of your spa yet? ;-)

[15:03] <Miclantlicute> dios sol

[15:03] <SteveS> No, but his fellow Aztec god Quetzecoatl is a feathersnake

[15:03] <fithp> My house is full of lace enthusiasts. The good news: I partake of their tea.

[15:03] <Redflame> Ok, Miclantlicute. If we have met, I don't recall where.

[15:04] <Miclantlicute> is my god

[15:04] <Miclantlicute> Chacocuicle

[15:04] <Miclantlicute> where´s you from?

[15:04] <fithp> Haven't checked the spa. I'd better do that.

[15:04] <Redflame> A tea can have some rather tasty victuals!

[15:05] <Harry> Chacocuicle? Aztec god of Chocolate?

[15:05] <fithp> the tea condiments are delicious.

[15:05] <Redflame> You don't have someone to clean your spa for you?

Couldn't the pool guy do that?

[15:05] <SteveS> I'm from Huntsville, Alabama, also known as Rocket City. :-)

[15:05] <fithp> The spa guy can't keep up with autumn.

[15:05] <Miclantlicute> is chachocuicle god of deidad

[15:06] <Miclantlicute> life

[15:06] <SteveS> What about a cover for the spa?

[15:06] <Miclantlicute> in my

[15:06] <Harry> Chocolate, Life... Same thing in my estimation.

[15:06] <Miclantlicute> do you like the marihuana?

[15:06] <Miclantlicute> flyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[15:06] <fithp> Aztec Chocolate was bitter, like straight coffee...and we need it in BURNING TOWER.

[15:06] <Redflame> I have a real good idea. Invite us all over to soak in the spa, and we will lounge and take leaves out while we do!

[15:07] <SteveS> g>

[15:07] <Harry> I use to. I wish I could get it for Medicinal purposes.

[15:07] <Redflame> Would it hold 6 friendly people? I can be REAL friendly!

[15:07] <Miclantlicute> is my medicament fro flyyy whit my gods

[15:08] <Redflame> Miclantilicute, were you looking for the Larry Niven list chat?

[15:08] <Miclantlicute> lsd

[15:08] <fithp> Marilyn would be startled if you all appeared. 6, yeah, I guess.

[15:08] <Harry> If we Soak in Larry's Spa, I'd unbend if Larry put a Large Balloon snifter of Remy Martin in with us.

[15:08] <Redflame> I think we would all be startled were we to appear!!!

[15:08] <Miclantlicute> the lsd is magical mmmmmmmmm

[15:09] <Redflame> Me thinks we could use a real operator right about now. Crazy, talk about the crazies taking over.....

[15:09] <Miclantlicute> the world of the gods is lsd, marihuana, hongos alucinogenos, mezcalina, peyote

[15:10] <Redflame> Red, If we were to soak in Larry's spa, I could give you a real nice massage to go with the warm water.

[15:10] <CrazyEddy> Indeed.

[15:10] <Harry> All good reasons for not doing anything in the real world Miclan.

[15:10] <Krenon> We could sure use someone who was opped and who therefore had the power to kick

[15:10] <Redflame> Miclanticute, maybe you are looking for a libertarian chat room.

[15:11] <Miclantlicute> fly whit mi god

[15:11] <Redflame> Oh, Larry! I've been meaning to tell you that you have a new fan! I've been playing Rainbow Mars in the car, and Keegan has become a real fan!

[15:11] <Harry> Miclan, Your god is not my god.

[15:11] <Miclantlicute> do you like the lsd?

[15:11] <Redflame> Mic, fly away!!!!

[15:12] <Miclantlicute> my god is you god

[15:12] <Miclantlicute> irresponsable

[15:12] <CrazyEddy> Best not feed the trolls.

[15:12] <SteveS> I haven't had LSD, and even if I had, I wouldn't admit it in public -- I'd be too likely to get dragged into prison for a long time.

[15:12] <Redflame> He has been asking questions which are really hard to answer, like how you can travel into a make believe past from a make believe future.

[15:13] <Miclantlicute> in my ayes indisposed

[15:13] <SteveS> How else? By using make-believe! :-)

[15:13] <Redflame> Steve, surely there is a statue of limitations. Just think of a world where there wasn't one. I'd hate to have to be liable for EVERYTHING I've ever done!

[15:13] <Harry> Truly Miclan. Neither of us are responsible for the other's actions... Why don't you drop about 5,000 mikes and fly away.

[15:13] <fithp> Keegan has a good question. Best tell him, "It's just a story."

[15:13] <Redflame> Yes, Steve. Try telling that to a 7 yo. I keep trying to tell him that Svetz's time machine is fantasy, so it goes back into a fantasy past.

[15:14] <fithp> Amen, Redflame. My life was not all well-considered.

[15:14] <Miclantlicute> hides the face, lies the snake, the sun my god, the war dead the time in my sky

[15:14] <Redflame> He knows it is pretend. Kids his age really like to pretend fiction is reality. But that is what got my nephew diagnosed with childhood schizophrenia.

[15:14] <Krenon> If it's fantasy does it really mean anything to call it past?

[15:14] <SteveS> There probably is a statute of limitations, but the Drug War still makes me nervous.

[15:15] <Harry> What I find interesting is someone from a Make believe Past coming into a REAL (to us) Future.

[15:15] <Miclantlicute> we see you laugh

[15:15] <Miclantlicute> we see you cry

[15:15] <Redflame> Fi', it is much easier to consider things in the past, and judge them faulty.

[15:15] <Harry> Hmmm. Miclan, I never noticed that ANY of the Aztec Gods were Anti-War.

[15:16] <Redflame> Like Wronna?

[15:16] <fithp> I remember. Make Love AND War.

[15:16] <Redflame> I mean, Redd, make believe past coming into a considered real future, like wronna did in one of the svetz stories.

[15:17] <Redflame> Some people thing there is little difference between love and war!

[15:17] <Miclantlicute> feel the rhythm whit your hands

[15:17] <Harry> Making LOVE and WAR always happens Larry. More people after a war than before the start of one.

[15:17] <fithp> Wrona came into a timeline where dogs didn't evolve intelligence.

[15:17] <Krenon> I thought it was "make love and whore"

[15:17] <Redflame> Krenon, LOL

[15:18] <Miclantlicute> speak the rythm all alone,

[15:18] <fithp> Krenon, :)

[15:18] <SteveS> Gloria says the rhythm is gonna get ya. ;-

[15:18] <Redflame> At least not hands. I do think dogs are smarter than cats. At least more obedient.

[15:18] <Harry> That's part of the circumstance Ted. Economic re-adjustment causes changes in employment in War.

[15:19] <Miclantlicute>mr full, mr , have kills mr, empty hand

[15:19] <Redflame> I really don't like to dance alone.

[15:19] <Miclantlicute> half a chance we still

[15:19] <Miclantlicute> long life every my gods

[15:20] <Harry> Red, You feel that Obedience is a sign of Intelligence? Strange... I would think that being Non-Obedient would take MORE Intelligence and awareness of Self.

[15:20] <fithp> Miclan, stop abusing the hospital computer!

[15:20] <SteveS> Dogs have more social intelligence than cats, since they live together in the wild.

[15:20] <Miclantlicute> I woke the same as any other day, exept a voice was in my head

[15:20] <Redflame> Well, my untrained new dog will mind me better than cats I've lived with for years. He does make me feel like he understands better.You have to KNOW the rules before you can break them well.

[15:21] <Redflame> Fithp, LOL!

[15:21] <Harry> Steve, Cats define territory in the wild but often cooperate.

[15:21] <SteveS> What's really scary is seeing a formerly sane list member slowly go insane, which we saw on Brin-L last year.

[15:21] <Harry> Minding is not in the Cat Vocab Reds. Training YOU is though.

[15:22] <Redflame> Steve, how sad.

[15:22] <Miclantlicute> it said seize the day, pull the trigger, drop the blade and wath the rolling head

[15:22] <Krenon> Steve, that must have been frightening.

[15:22] <Redflame> I'm starting to wonder if Mic is a bot.

[15:22] <Redflame> Bad bot! go into your kennel.

[15:22] <Miclantlicute> is you but

[15:23] <SteveS> It was. And since the list is so open, we had a hard time getting together a plan to keep him from disrupting the list.

[15:23] <Harry> I've found that Cat's ignore most of YOUR rules... But have some of their own they adhere to very well.

[15:23] <Krenon> No. I think it's an androgyne that I met in a cafe in Petaluma just before ConJosé

[15:23] <Miclantlicute> one more time around might do it

[15:23] <Redflame> Where is Petaluma?

[15:24] <Redflame> Steve, you don't have any admins?

[15:24] <Krenon> A town in California, north east of San Francisco

[15:24] <CrazyEddy> We should go to another channel.

[15:24] <CrazyEddy> This can only go downhill.

[15:24] <Harry> Petaluma is North of San Francisco.

[15:24] <Miclantlicute> the day I tried to live

[15:24] <SteveS> We do, but they don't like to kick people off without a list consensus.

[15:24] <Redflame> Okay, I'm an op in #known

[15:24] *** Retrieving #knownspace info...

[15:25] <Harry> I agree Red.

[15:25] *** Redflame changes topic to 'Lets go to #known'

[15:25] <Miclantlicute> fell on black days

[15:25] <SteveS> There was only one precedent, another person who wandered in, then started flaming the list. They eventually kicked him off.

[15:25] *** tom sets mode: +o Redflame

[15:25] <Redflame> We can stay here if anyone can't figure out how to add a room and go to #known

[15:25] <Miclantlicute> si si si

[15:26] <CrazyEddy> Wooo..!

[15:26] *** Miclantlicute was kicked by Redflame (Redflame)

[15:26] <Krenon> Thanks

[15:27] * Redflame bows to the acclaim

[15:27] <SteveS> That simplifies things. ;-)

[15:27] <Redflame> Hi sledgy

[15:27] <Redflame> Thanks for showing up tom!

[15:27] <Harry> Thank you Red.

[15:27] <SteveS> Hi Sledgy!

[15:27] <sledgy> heya Redflame :)

[15:27] <tom> yeah sure

[15:27] <Redflame> You are very welcome!

[15:27] <sledgy> Hey Steve how's it going?

[15:27] <Harry> Hi Sledgy. Tom.

[15:27] <Redflame> Tom, have we met?

[15:27] <SteveS> For a troll, he was awfully on-topic. Aztec gods are on-topic thanks to Burning City/Tower. :-)

[15:28] <tom> nope

[15:28] <SteveS> Pretty good, how about you.

[15:28] <sledgy> just saw the time and said "oh my, I'm late for knownspace!"

[15:28] <sledgy> hey Harry

[15:28] <Redflame> SteveS, it was strangely apropos!

[15:28] <tom> I was actually looking at sites that linked my domain the other day and I saw a post pointing here

[15:28] <CrazyEddy> Hey Sledgy.

[15:28] <sledgy> Heya CrazyEddy

[15:28] <Redflame> Tom, are you a SF reader of Niven fan?

[15:28] <tom> so I followed some links and decided to join the channel

[15:29] <tom> yeah

[15:29] <Harry> Really Tom. You know what this room is about then?

[15:29] <sledgy> Anyone tried Unreal Tournament 2003 yet? A Kzinti _must_ be inserted into that game.

[15:29] <tom> I wouldn't have come in if I didn't

[15:29] <fithp> Niven back in five minutes.

[15:29] <Redflame> Larry Niven is here, and was talking a moment ago.

[15:29] <Redflame> Okay, see y!

[15:29] <tom> ah

[15:29] * CrazyEddy takes a quick break.

[15:29] <Krenon> He occasionally drops by

[15:29] <tom> where's Niven?

[15:30] <Krenon> fithp

[15:30] <tom> ah

[15:30] <Redflame> Tom, what site is larryniven.org linked to?

[15:30] <Krenon> he's here but stepped out for a few minutes

[15:30] <SteveS> He just hung a "back in 5 minutes" sign. :-)

[15:30] <tom> no unhooked.net

[15:30] <tom> I used to run a server on chatnet

[15:30] <sledgy> me no grok "fithp" - what's it mean?

[15:30] <Redflame> unhooked.net is a fan site? Must have something about Niven in it.

[15:30] <Harry> I'm in Az Tom, You?

[15:30] <Redflame> fithp are the aliens in Footfall.

[15:30] <tom> yeah as in me

[15:31] <Krenon> fithp were the aliens that invaded earth in 'Footfall"

[15:31] <sledgy> oh yes!

[15:31] <sledgy> The Elephant-ish guys.

[15:31] <Redflame> In FOOTFALL, the science fiction writers help save the earth. They were called "Dreamer Fithp." but that is too long a name.

[15:31] <tom> and the aussie server needed dns for a few days so I gave sean a hostname

[15:31] <Krenon> Yes. The singular is fi'

[15:31] <tom> and you guys posted that on the mailinglists

[15:31] <Redflame> Tom, you are in Oz?

[15:31] <tom> no I'm in canada

[15:31] <tom> now, but sean is in OZ.

[15:32] <Redflame> Yes, isn't it interesting that Niven thinks of himself in the plural?

[15:32] <Krenon> Sean?

[15:32] <SteveS> The *world*-wide web. :-)

[15:32] <tom> the guy who runs sydney.nsw.au.chatnet.org

[15:32] <Harry> Note that the U.S. Government is running ongoing workshops of SFwriters for the Mid-East unpleasentness.

[15:32] <tom> which was called sean.unhooked.net for a few weeks.

[15:32] <Krenon> I think it was just a convenient short name that he found he could use with aol

[15:32] <tom> make sense now?

[15:33] <Redflame> Sean McMullien?

[15:33] <SteveS> My Chmeee site started out because chmeee was a useful ID name for GeoCities.

[15:33] <fithp> I'm back, and catching up.

[15:33] <Harry> WB Larry.

[15:34] *** Redflame changes topic to 'Welcome back Larry!'

[15:34] <Krenon> I doubt it. Sean McMullen lives in Adelaide, spends a lot of time in the USA and is far too busy writing to be bothered with Internet chats

[15:34] <Redflame> Who is sean of sean.unhooked.net?

[15:34] <Krenon> No idea.

[15:35] <tom> the guy who runs the OZ chatnet server.

[15:36] <tom> so what's new in the niviverse?

[15:36] <tom> I haven;t read much lately

[15:36] <Redflame> Hmm. Larry has republished Niven's laws, leaving out my favorite one. :-(

[15:36] <tom> burning city, saturn. before that ringworld eng...

[15:37] <Redflame> tom, you've read Burning City?

[15:37] <Krenon> Ringworld Throne, you mean

[15:37] <Harry> I understand that BURNING TOWER is nearing completion and there's a new edition of FALLEN ANGELS from BAEN BOOKS.

[15:37] <tom> yeah throne

[15:37] <fithp> Rings. Nearby black hole would reflect a ring of Sol light back at Earth.

[15:37] <sledgy> workshops of SFwriters for the MidEast...are we going to be arming our boys abroad with Slaver weapons or some such then?

[15:37] <fithp> Redflame, what law are you missing?

[15:38] <Harry> Don't I Wish Sledgy. I'd settle for Flashlight Lazers.

[15:38] <Redflame> My favorite Niven's Law: "The music should be louder than the applause. If it isn't, play better or softer." I quote it often!

[15:38] <Krenon> So since we don't see any rings of sunlight in the night sky we haven't got any near-neighbour black holes?

[15:38] <Harry> Digging tools would be quite useful too.

[15:39] <sledgy> Especially for foxholes!

[15:39] <SteveS> Build Israeli cars out of GP hull?

[15:39] <Harry> Krenon, Has the entire 360 degree visa from earth been eyeballed yet? If not, we can't know.

[15:39] <CrazyEddy> Are you sure it's "music should be louder"?

[15:39] <CrazyEddy> That doesn't sound right.

[15:40] <fithp> We're talking big black holes, 1.5 solar mass and up.

[15:40] <Krenon> I think it has been pretty well explored, Harry. Any rings would have been examined for spectrum.

[15:40] <Redflame> I'm lost regarding this comment: "Nearby black hole would reflect a ring of Sol light back at Earth. " We would see a ring of light shinning back from our own sun from a nearby black hole, and we could tell it would be the same light?

[15:40] <fithp> Applause should be louder than the music, Redflame.

[15:40] <Krenon> In other words a large enough neutron star.

[15:40] <Redflame> Oops. That is what I meant! Really, I swear!

[15:41] <Krenon> That's right.

[15:41] <Krenon> Play softer or better.

[15:41] * Redflame blushes

[15:41] <CrazyEddy> Redflame: That would be about right irt the laws of physics.

[15:41] <Harry> Sledgy, during WW II there was a Government project headed by John W Campbell involving Robert Heinlein and others in Philadelphia that turned out some surprising stuff... Including an IR Glider Bomb for killing U-Boats. It worked very well too!

[15:41] <fithp> Yes (regarding the ring.) Sol light, sent round in a half (and 3/2) circle, and test for spectrum.

[15:41] * Krenon thinks she looks cute when she blushes

[15:41] <SteveS> g>

[15:42] <sledgy> Would that have been the precursor to the guided missile?

[15:42] <Krenon>

[link dead] and scroll down till you find the picture of us.

[15:42] * Redflame blushes to think where Krenon has seen Redflame blush!

[15:42] <Harry> It WAS a (self) guided Missile, just not powered except by Gravity.

[15:42] <Krenon> v.i.

[15:42] <CrazyEddy> Does light obey the solution to the two body problem?

[15:44] <Harry> As a performer, the Applause should ALWAYS be louder than the Music... If not, the Gain on the amps is too high or you're in the wrong business...

[15:44] <Krenon> Ve haf vays to make it obey

[15:44] <fithp> ->CrazyEddy: I'd guess so.

[15:44] <SteveS> So turning the amps to 11 is a *bad* idea? :-)

[15:45] <Krenon> The classic two body problem was Newtonian surely. Light bending in a gravitational field is general relativity

[15:45] <Harry> Unless you're using the Sound system as a weapon Stece.

[15:45] <CrazyEddy> If that's the case, then the 3/2 thing wouldn't apply.

[15:45] <Redflame> But the problem is that people put amps on music so that people can't even hear themselves think. And this is even worse when they do it in a natural setting like a campout, where there is NO way that a few hundred people could clap that loud!

[15:46] * CrazyEddy nearly went insane trying to understand the two body solution recently.

[15:46] <Krenon> I think that Niven's Law was meant for strictly acoustic situations.

[15:46] <Harry> Quantity over Quality Red.

[15:46] * Krenon thinks it depends on who the other body was :-)

[15:46] <sledgy> Larry I wonder if you wouldn't mind giving me your opinion on this Protector work in progress:

[link dead]

[15:47] <sledgy> Who better than the one who thunk him? :)

[15:47] <Redflame> Ted, you think I'm blushing in that picture? I get WAY more embarrassed and red! Since I've let my red hair go gray, I can have my cheeks be my red flames! I'll have to become plural.

[15:49] <Harry> PM's must be flying!

[15:49] <Redflame> Redd, yes, too many people seem to think that quantity makes up for a lack of quality.

[15:49] <fithp> sledgy: I will look.

[15:49] <Krenon> I've no doubt but you do have a sorta self-conscious look.

[15:50] <SteveS> Better than an unconscious look... ;-)

[15:50] <Redflame> Steve: LOL

[15:50] <Harry> The rule of Modern American Music seems to be; If you can't play, be Loud.

[15:51] <SteveS> True.

[15:52] <Redflame> Sledgy, are they two versions, or one with skin and one with out?

[15:52] <SteveS> One has been painted, and the other hasn't.

[15:52] <sledgy> Here's the profile of his head:

[link dead]

[15:52] <Redflame> It is interesting to wonder if nipples and belly buttons would fade away, if genitals do.

[15:53] <sledgy> The 2nd one is a high-polygon version which I'll use to put the finer details on, bake the lighting and use it as a sub-map of the one on the left.

[15:53] <SteveS> They're the same shape, but the painting (called texturing) makes one look more complex than the other.

[15:54] <Harry> Undoubtedly Red. Bellybuttons are actually Birthing scars. and Didn't Larry say or imply that Secondary Sexual characteristics also went away?

[15:54] <Krenon> I put this to everyone here. As you know the Pak transition parallels aging changes that we're familiar with. Arthritis, nobbly knees etc. But what about dementia? The Pak mind appears to get sharper.

[15:54] <SteveS> Nipples may be too sensitive to leave exposed.

[15:55] <Redflame> I don't recall if sexual sexual characteristic went away. If breasts retract, (or whatever) we don't need nipples either.

[15:55] <Harry> Since the Skin grew thicker, I'd think that un-needed surface features would also disappear.

[15:55] <Redflame> SECONDARY SEXUAL......

[15:55] <SteveS> The brain changes, but without the ToL, the changes are for the worse?

[15:55] <sledgy> Nipples would definitely be a liability in battle..

[15:55] <Redflame> I thought the brain case grew?

[15:56] <Harry> If the mind is damaged the Protector does not survive the change. I suspect the PINEAL Gland plays a great part in the change.

[15:56] <Redflame> Why would the jaw thrust forward? Brain pushed it?

[15:56] <Krenon> Simian jaw. I don't think that's right.

[15:57] <Krenon> Where did the pics that Joel Nap had on his Pak page come from?

[15:57] <SteveS> Homo habilis (Paks) did have a very apelike head.

[15:57] <Harry> Enlargement of the Mandibular Joint s Red. A protector would have one hell of a bite.

[15:57] <Krenon> Oh. I didn't know that.

[15:57] <sledgy> Habilis is what I used as a basis for the skull

[15:57] <Redflame> Learned today that orangutans have opposable thumbs on their feet. That would be useful. Nice thing for a Protector to develop.

[15:57] <Krenon> I thought that all true hominids had flatter faces.

[15:57] <Harry> ALL the body's joints are susceptible to Arthritis.

[15:58] <Krenon> Don't tell ME!

[15:58] <Redflame> Ted, you suffer form arthritis? I didn't know.

[15:59] <Krenon> A little, but I can expect worse. It runs in the family.

[15:59] <Harry> Opposable foot thumbs are only useful for something that spends a LOT of time in trees (or maybe in 0-G) Red. Not useful in a Savanna environment.

[15:59] <SteveS> The Pak protectors probably wouldn't have opposable toe-thumbs, because they're optimized for walking/running, which would suffer from apelike feet.

[15:59] <SteveS> I'm sure quite a few Ringworld protectors, Hanging Folk for example, would have them, though.

[16:00] <Krenon> Larry mentioned the Pak transition a couple of times in passing at panels in ConJosé. I think he has more in mind for them.

[16:00] <sledgy> Perhaps they might develop a large bone spur on their heel that would serve as a handy kicking weapon?

[16:00] <Redflame> For kicking backward, sledge?

[16:00] <Harry> The key here is the (Protector) change from original design. If the Breeder doesn't have a trait, it is doubtful the Protector would.

[16:01] <SteveS> Possibly.

[16:01] <SteveS> Other than skull and joint size, of course.

[16:01] <sledgy> Exactly Red

[16:01] <Harry> People often develop a bone spur on the TOP of the foot. A gutting Spur perhaps?

[16:01] <Harry> Sorry... Spur.

[16:02] <sledgy> On the top? Whereabouts?

[16:02] <sledgy> Like horny toe knuckles?

[16:02] <Redflame> Ah, like the little spikes on top of Klingon shoes? Sounds good in battle.

[16:02] <Harry> About mid-point between the front of the ankle and the Big toe joint.

[16:03] <fithp> I looked. Neat stuff!

[16:03] <Redflame> I think they would grow right where the toes grow out of the foot. On top of there.

[16:03] <Redflame> Look like you imagine, fithp?

[16:03] <Krenon> That's enough of an endorsement.

[16:04] <Harry> Also Sledgy, Consider the flattening of the outside of the foot. It could develop a Hard edge through use... Like an EXTREME Callous.

[16:04] <Harry> But Sharp.

[16:04] <sledgy> Thanks Larry! (That just made my freakin week)

[16:04] <Redflame> Sledgy, only your week?

[16:04] <Harry> Good news Sledgy?

[16:04] <Harry> Re, a spike there would endanger the Toe Joint.

[16:05] <Redflame> Sledgy, now, at the top of your page, you can quote Larry saying "Neat stuff!"

[16:05] <sledgy> Well last week I did get to play against the developers of UT2, their game, and beat them down like red-headed stepchildren ;)

[16:05] <SteveS> Ooh!

[16:05] <fithp> The little pictures looked close enough to what's in my mind. I've often had my images corrected by outside thoughts.

[16:05] <Harry> Larry, How fast to Protectors heal?

[16:06] <sledgy> Steve I have the IP of the DE server if you're interested.

[16:06] <SteveS> I'm not a big game player. My reflexes are too slow to be any good. :-)

[16:06] <Redflame> "beat them down like red-headed stepchildren" What? If they have red hair they aren't yours and you can beat them?

[16:07] * Redflame looks very much like Silverflame, and less red.

[16:07] <SteveS> I've heard the phrase before, but I'm not sure where it came from.

[16:07] <sledgy> And do they have ears? I would imagine they could be a liability so I made the skull sort of parabolic on the sides with just an elongated ear canal.

[16:07] <SteveS> Makes sense.

[16:07] <Harry> Kinda like a Dolphin ear Sledgy? Good thinking.

[16:07] <sledgy> Haha Red! Exactly.

[16:08] <SteveS> Although I'd probably leave a vestigial ridge where the outline of the ear used to be.

[16:08] <fithp> A Man-Kzin Wars author (volunteer) has put big noses on human protectors. Powerful sense of smell, right?

[16:08] <Redflame> I was in a group once where a woman said that she was "Colder than a witches tit in a brass brassiere." I took it personally.

[16:08] <sledgy> ooo good call.

[16:08] <Krenon> The olfactory organ may need to be big but not necessarily the external nose.

[16:08] <Harry> Hmmm, Perhaps a PAK ear would be retractable... Or more mobile like a cats... Folded back in battle. Also a language signaling device...

[16:08] <CrazyEddy> Heheheh.

[16:08] <Redflame> The size of the nostrils hasn't much to do with the amount of scent receptors. I take this from a woman I know with a REALLY big nose.

[16:09] <Harry> Good hearing is a DEFINITE PLUS in a warrior.

[16:09] <SteveS> Douglas Adams joked about his huge honker, which had zero sense of smell after a childhood sports injury.

[16:10] <Harry> Larry? You like folding Ears on a Protector?

[16:10] <Redflame> Adams had a big nose? I'm afraid Becca wanted little to do with my family after Keegan asked her why her nose was so big. Folding nose, how interesting.

[16:10] <sledgy> Yeah, especially a cunning stalker like a Pak

[16:10] <fithp> Maybe. Folding ears on a protector: I'll think about it.

[16:11] <Krenon> Too big a change, methinks.

[16:11] <Harry> Or perhaps Errectable...

[16:11] <Redflame> Hi spratz

[16:11] <Redflame> Hey, or like a snake, flatten the bones and make ear flaps grow....

[16:11] <Harry> I'd like to see more about the PAK... They're interesting.

[16:11] <fithp> If flaring nostrils, implies partly folding nose.

[16:11] <spratz> sigh> Late again. Hello people.

[16:11] <SteveS> Depends on just how much the ToL genes change the basic hominid traits. As far as I know, no primate on the monkey-ape-hominid line has very mobile ears.

[16:11] <SteveS> Hi, Spratz!

[16:12] <Harry> Larry, note that some people can wiggle their ears in a limited fashion...

[16:12] <fithp> noted

[16:12] <Redflame> Isn't wiggling ears mostly a function of being able to isolate certain facial muscles?

[16:12] <sledgy> hehe

[16:12] <Harry> And Skull muscles Red.

[16:12] <spratz> Today's topic is facial control?

[16:13] <Harry> On PROTECTORS Spratz.

[16:13] <sledgy> What about tongues? Not much change? I rigged up a humanish tongue to give him a limited facial animation

[16:13] <spratz> Ah! There would be little I would imagine.

[16:13] <Krenon> And it's not the only topic

[16:13] <SteveS> Actually, we're discussing Sledgy's Protector model at the moment: http://www.sledgesandbox.com/pak_9_7.jpg and http://www.sledgesandbox.com/pak_head_9_7.jpg

[16:14] <Harry> You know, there is no predator that does NOT have good hearing. Look closely at a Cat's ears for example.

[16:14] <Redflame> facile control? Tongues with more movement, sound fun.

[16:14] <Krenon> Can eagles hear well, Harry?

[16:14] <sledgy> This guy would be very popular among the ladies, if he weren't so uninterested in sex.

[16:15] <SteveS> chuckle>

[16:15] <Harry> As a matter of fact, they do real well for Birds.

[16:15] <Krenon> How does anyone know?

[16:15] <spratz> Speaking of models, which cover art most closely approximates what you saw in your mind when writing, Larry?

[16:16] <Redflame> Well, a protector might find it useful to keep ladies happy even if he weren't interested in sex. There are other things he could get back in return from them rather than just access.

[16:16] <Harry> HAWKS hear pretty good too.

[16:16] *** spratz is now known as SeanPratz

[16:16] <sledgy> Undying admiration? ;)

[16:16] <SteveS> Heck, if puppeteers can get it on... ;-)

[16:16] <fithp> Virgil Findley did a fine b&w job on a protector, for Galaxy.

[16:17] <SeanPratz> Oh, sure. Pick one I don't have.

[16:17] <SeanPratz> :)

[16:17] <Krenon> Never saw that.

[16:17] <Redflame> Sledgy, you are saying that women aren't good for anything other than sex?

[16:17] <Krenon> I still think of Bonnie Dalzell's picture of the Kzin as definitive.

[16:17] <Harry> I doubt that Protectors would have that much interest in Breeder fems red... except to make sure they had more breeders. They might look at a penchant for Oral Sex as an aberration.

[16:18] <sledgy> Absolutely not. Most good ones can cook too. ;)

[16:18] <SeanPratz> I don't know if it's what Larry was thinking, but everyPuppeteer I've ever seen has paled in comparison with the first drawing I saw. The Dalzell one, that is.

[16:18] <fithp> Bonnie Dalzell was very good at spec biology.

[16:18] * sledgy stops, drops, and rolls.

[16:19] <Redflame> So, a protector can get more out of the ladies than just

undying admiration, but dinner also? I still think he might be able to get

more.

[16:19] <Krenon> Hm ... imagine a man and a woman both passionately in love with each other. Real Romeo and Juliet. Then they somehow both get ToL and change into Protectors. Would there be any spark of the old love left?

[16:19] <tom> hmmm pak can have headaches?

[16:20] <Harry> WHY Red? protectors have no interest in sex except to make sure the breeders produce more breeders... Not much interest in the taste of food either.

[16:20] <sledgy> Redflame, I jest!

[16:20] <Redflame> Why would anyone want anyone to owe them a favor?

[16:20] <SteveS> If they had kids first, they would definitely be allies in protecting their common descendants.

[16:21] <Redflame> Yes, sledgy. :-)

[16:21] <fithp> I can picture a protector needing to cure frigidity in a descendant.

[16:21] <Harry> I doubt "LOVE" would last... Too many changes to the Endocrine system.

[16:21] <SeanPratz> Now how would that happen? shudder>

[16:21] * Redflame laughs out loud

[16:22] <Harry> Verbal Advice to another descendant Larry? Hmmm, what do Protectors do about excessive inbreeding?

[16:22] <Krenon> I remember a very old horror story where two lovers were killed then revivified as zombies. They had the slight remnants of their old love.

[16:22] <sledgy> Krenon, that reminds me of Bram and (I'll call her Elvira since I can't recall her name at the moment) - they were mates prior to ToL, and afterward they trusted each other.

[16:22] <SteveS> Imagine getting lessons in sex from a protector. And you thought hearing about the birds and the bees from your *parents* was bad... ;-)

[16:22] <fithp> "Now pay attention, cause I'm only going to do this ONCE."

[16:22] <Redflame> LOL!!

[16:22] * SeanPratz laughs

[16:23] <Harry> LOL~

[16:23] <sledgy> haha!

[16:23] <Redflame> Needs to video tape the event to examine technique after the effect is well understood!

[16:23] <sledgy> Pak Porn hmmm

[16:24] <SeanPratz> That's almost as "disturbing" as Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex.

[16:24] <SeanPratz> I sense a whole new article.

[16:24] <Krenon> No it's not. MoSWoK was MORE disturbing ;-)

[16:24] <Krenon> Much more

[16:25] <SteveS> The Smallville show found a new wrinkle there -- apparently arousal triggers his heat vision. :-)

[16:25] <Redflame> That was a broad hint from Sean, Larry.

[16:25] <Harry> Re PAK and Inbreeding, the Hawaiians practiced inbreeding and killed all children who were defective. They ended with an upper class that looked like GODS but had more and more defective children due to recessives.

[16:25] <SeanPratz> I still have nightmares about sitting at the beach, watching these sperm dive-bomb the beachballs.

[16:25] <Krenon> I still wonder why Superman's sperm cells would travel faster than the speed of light (in whatever medium).

[16:25] <Redflame> Heat vision, so Superman has to close his eyes of he will incinerate everything?

[16:26] <SteveS> Yup. It took him the whole episode to learn to control it.

[16:26] <Harry> Breeder Porn produced by Pak?

[16:26] <Krenon> Surely in vision photons just go in and get interpreted. Nothing comes out.

[16:26] <fithp> Kryptonian life forms can crack lightspeed, that's why.

[16:26] <SeanPratz> Reminds me of the fithp reaction to Deep Throat.

[16:26] * SeanPratz chuckles

[16:26] <Krenon> What? c?

[16:27] <Redflame> Like some sort of hazing ritual, the old protectors make a new protector stage an orgy for recording?

[16:27] <Krenon> You mentioned Cerenkov radiation. That's sub c but faster than light in the medium.

[16:27] <SeanPratz> It's gotten to the point where I read a Niven/Pournelle novel and try to figure out who wrote what.

[16:27] <Harry> If it takes arousal to "turn on" Supe's heat Vision, would not that lead to a bulge in his tights?

[16:27] <SeanPratz> "If it's just plain crazy, that was Larry's work."

[16:27] <Redflame> LOL

[16:28] <Krenon> I don't know so much. I think some of that has rubbed off on Jerry.

[16:28] <SeanPratz> I'm re-reading all the collaborations to my wife. We're doing Mote now.

[16:28] <Harry> Jerry learns fast... Larry teaches well.

[16:29] <Krenon> You read N&P to your wife?? What do you do for an encore :-D

[16:29] <Redflame> I've never tried this with anyone, and I've never seen the results under clothes when I know it is done, but I understand that it can be nearly tucked inside. Maybe superman does that, so it won't bulge. I suspect that it wouldn't be very comfortable, even should the original tucking not be so.

[16:29] <SeanPratz> You wouldn't believe how hard that is to follow.

[16:30] <Redflame> Sean, you read them outloud? Or you switch books?

[16:30] <SeanPratz> She actually cried a bit when Harry Redd died in Footfall.

[16:30] <SeanPratz> Out loud.

[16:30] <SteveS> Where did this discussion wander off to while I was gone? Tuck what? :-)

[16:30] <SeanPratz> We're talking about Superschlongs.

[16:30] <Redflame> The only time Peter and I read the same book in bed, we read over each others shoulders, or whatever body part happens to be there.

[16:30] <Harry> Gay impersonators Tuck, but become VERY uncomfortable when aroused while playing HIDE THE WEENEY.

[16:30] <SteveS> Ah.

[16:30] <Krenon> It was an emotional moment. So how did the Role Model feel??

[16:31] <SeanPratz> I started reading to her ten years ago. The first book was Ringworld

[16:32] <SeanPratz> I asked her which book made the most lasting impression. It was Lucifer's Hammer.

[16:32] <Krenon> Hammers do tend to make lasting impressions :-)

[16:33] <Redflame> Sean, try her on The Smoke Ring.

[16:33] <SeanPratz> Although her list also included Dream Park and The Legacy of Heorot.

[16:33] <SeanPratz> I can't! :( I lost my copy during a move.

[16:33] <Krenon> But The Integral Trees is first.

[16:33] <sledgy> Dream Park made me decide to be an animator.

[16:33] <Redflame> Is this a "reading each other's books" exercise?

[16:33] <sledgy> I won't be satisfied until NPCs are holos.

[16:33] <Redflame> Yeah. Find another copy.

[16:33] <SeanPratz> Naw. She knows I won't read her stuff. :)

[16:34] <Redflame> I can't read Peter's books. They are too hard. Economics textbooks.

[16:34] <sledgy> Anybody see those neat holo machines that were on display at E3 by SGI?

[16:34] <SeanPratz> It's a nurturing loving sugary sweet husband reading to his wife" thing.

[16:34] <Redflame> So, you read out loud to her?

[16:34] <Krenon> So????

[16:34] <SeanPratz> Ya.

[16:34] <Redflame> How sweet.

[16:35] <SteveS> I wanted to become a computer animator when I saw a show called "Computer Animation Magic", probably almost 20 years ago.

[16:35] * SeanPratz is the greatest.

[16:35] <Redflame> And it gives you alone time!

[16:35] <SeanPratz> :>

[16:35] <Redflame> No, I didn't see them.

[16:35] <SeanPratz> I think I'm going to go for a new challenge. Andromeda Strain should do it.

[16:36] <sledgy> I always thought it was neat, Dream Park is what solidified it and made me want to make games.

[16:36] <SeanPratz> That's why I was making silly about the Fithp names earlier on the list. Yes, they're all pronounceable, but when reading cold it ain't easy!

[16:36] <Harry> Steve, Have you seen any of the MIKE JITLOV animations?

[16:37] <SteveS> Possibly, but the name isn't familiar.

[16:37] <Redflame> Wizard of speed and time

[16:38] <Harry> he did a bunch more than WIZARD of Speed and Time, but they're not as well known. JITLOV is a STOP MOTION wizard.

[16:38] <sledgy> He worked on Starship Troopers apparently

[16:38] <Redflame> Btw, I met Jitlov at a convention. He gives blanket permission for anyone to copy "Wizard of Speed and Time" because someone stole it from him and produced thousands of mass market copies.

[16:39] <Redflame> But that is the most famous, from my perspective, at least.

[16:39] <Harry> The Movie? Yeah, I suggested that to him.

[16:39] <fithp> The wizard of speed and time was glimpsed in THE BURNING CITY, as played by Morth in the finale.

[16:40] <Harry> YEAH Larry, I THOUGHT that looked familiar! Thanks!

[16:40] <Redflame> Thanks. I'll have to re-read TBC now!

[16:40] <SeanPratz> Back now.

[16:40] <fithp> "You really look like a wizard, Morth!"

[16:40] <SteveS> I don't think I have, but it's now on my list of stuff to look for.

[16:41] <Krenon> Me too

[16:41] <Harry> Larry, Peggy says "HI".

[16:41] * Redflame would read TBC out loud to Krenon if she could

[16:42] <fithp> Hi, Peggy!

[16:42] * Krenon thinks that Redflame has done more in that direction for me than anyone else.

[16:43] <Harry> ***VIRTUAL HUG FROM PEGGY***

[16:43] <SeanPratz> Can I ask a somewhat silly question, Larry? Why is your nick "fithp?" Shouldn't it be, er... "fi'?"

[16:43] * SeanPratz grins

[16:44] <fithp> Yes, fi' would be the right nickname.

[16:44] <Krenon> Royal plural ;-)

[16:44] <Redflame> Sean, isn't that obvious? His brain is so big there is actually a committee in there!

[16:44] <SeanPratz> Hee!

[16:44] <fithp> "I am large, I contain multitudes."

[16:44] <SeanPratz> I was thinking that, but I didn't want to be a suck. :)

[16:44] <Krenon> Who was that? A famous physicist?

[16:44] <Redflame> Someone who was claiming to be channeling the archangel Michael said that to me once!

[16:45] <SteveS> Does that mean that multiple text-based editors for UNIX would be called vithp?

[16:45] <Harry> *lol* Steve

[16:45] <CrazyEddy> Hah.

[16:46] <Krenon> That must be an in gag for unix geeks.

[16:46] <SteveS> Yup. ;-)

[16:46] <SeanPratz> Fithp play the name game! "Harpanet, Harpanet, bo-Harpanet, banana fana fo-Harpanet..."

[16:46] <CrazyEddy> I've heard better ones. ;-)

[16:46] <SeanPratz> It just doesn't work.

[16:46] <fithp> Gone for five minutes.

[16:46] <Krenon> OK. Time him, everyone!

[16:47] <Harry> Clock running

[16:47] <Redflame> Go on, Sean! "fithp fithp bo-bithp, fee fi fo fithp, banana fanna fo- fithp fithp" Isn't that how it goes?

[16:48] <SeanPratz> It scares the heck out of me.

[16:48] <Krenon> What's all this?

[16:48] <Redflame> It is from a popular song from the '60s, called the name game.

[16:48] <SteveS> An oldie novelty song, The Name Game.

[16:48] <Harry> A Name Game played mostly by Afro-American children Krenon.

[16:48] <Krenon> Banana fana. Manifestation of a tropical god?

[16:48] <Redflame> or a topical one?

[16:48] <Harry> Just nonsense rhyming.

[16:49] <SteveS> Wasn't Banana Fana a Gilda Radner character?

[16:49] <SeanPratz> Yeah, you know... Larry Larry bo-barry, banana fana fo farry, mee mi mo marry, Larry!

[16:49] <Redflame> All the hippies remember it, and think it a part of the culture that we need to pass on to the next generation.

[16:50] <sledgy> Steve, Rosanna-Dana :)

[16:50] <Krenon> Something to do while you're travelling through hyperspace.

[16:50] <SteveS> I know, I know. I was reaching on that one. ;-)

[16:50] <SeanPratz> Well.... isn't it?

[16:51] <SeanPratz> One needs to pass on all of our cultural heritage. That's why we have museums. Big shiny ones out in the cornfields.

[16:51] <Redflame> Beowulf, beowulf bo beowulf, banana fanna fo feowolf, me mi mo meowulf, Beowulf. Doesn't always work well.

[16:51] <sledgy> haha Red

[16:51] * SeanPratz giggles ahem> in a manly way.

[16:52] <Krenon> Beowulf invariably reminds me of Tolkien rather than Niven.

[16:53] * Krenon thinks that a manly giggle is an oxymoron.

[16:53] <Redflame> Julie Julie bo bulie, banana fanno fo fulie, me mi mo mulie, Julie.

[16:53] <SeanPratz> Speaking of Beowulf, did anyone waste their eight bucks on the Chricton film.. er... what was it called? The Thirteenth Warrior?

[16:53] <SeanPratz> Chricton=Crichton. ahem>

[16:53] <SteveS> I only wasted a video-rental fee.

[16:53] <Krenon> Crigchton? As in Farscape?

[16:53] * Redflame wonders is a womanly giggle is just as much an oxymoron?

[16:54] <Harry> Read a story once where some kids were locked into a Museum, because they didn't know how to work a doorknob... Everything was automatic. I wonder if we'll get that way with Fire someday.

[16:54] * SeanPratz giggles all the time. Just don't tel.

[16:54] <Krenon> No. That is a tautology :-)

[16:54] <Redflame> 13th warrior? No. Spent no time on it either.

[16:54] <sledgy> That wasn't so bad I thought - lots of good clean blood and gore.

[16:54] <SeanPratz> No. Crichton as in Andromeda Strain, Jurassic Park and other fairly interesting things that Haollywood has trashed.

[16:55] <sledgy> I especially liked the morning when the Muslim witnessed the barbarians passing around the bowl of washwater.

[16:55] <Redflame> Caught part of "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" last night. By reading the subtitles and telling the kids what everything meant, I even got my 4 yo interested.

[16:55] <Krenon> Haollywood was a nice Freudian slip.

[16:55] <SeanPratz> 'strue...

[16:55] <fithp> A womanly guffaw is a reducimoron

[16:55] <SeanPratz> I have a prescription for reducimoron.

[16:55] <SeanPratz> Doesn't work well..

[16:56] * Redflame needs a definition for "reducimoron"

[16:56] <Harry> Strangely enough, When HOLLYWOOD did FAREWLLL TO THE MASTER, the Movie was BETTER than the story... The movie was THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL.

[16:56] <SteveS> An oxymoron on Jupiter, I suppose.

[16:56] <Krenon> I've heard women guffaw.

[16:57] <Krenon> Of course I could be wrong about their being women

[16:57] <SeanPratz> Hmmm...

[16:57] <Redflame> Krenon, you didn't look under their skirts?

[16:58] <sledgy> I just realized there's a face on this man's ass with an indifferent look: http://www.planetquake.com/shattered/shine/images/ref/anatomy/LOOMIS1M.JPG

[16:58] <SeanPratz> very shiny shoes, maybe?

[16:58] <fithp> maybe I mean reducigenius (vs oxymoron.)

[16:59] <SteveS> Yes, that guy's butt did look pretty cranky.

[16:59] <CrazyEddy> The image "http://www.planetquake.com/shattered/shine/images/ref/anatomy/LOOMIS1M.JPG" cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.

[16:59] <Krenon> reducimoron is not in Merriam-Webster online. They suggest 1. radioimmunoassay

[16:59] <sledgy> That's funny CrazyEddy, it works in IE and in Opera for me

[17:00] <Krenon> 2. reductionism

[17:00] <Krenon> 3. radioimmunoassays

[17:00] <Krenon> 4. reductionisms

[17:00] <Krenon> 5. redescription

[17:00] <Krenon> 6. radiothoriums

[17:00] <Redflame> Okay, if an oxymoron is something that conflicts so much it is impossible, than if the opposite is reducigenius, that would mean that the two terms would have to go together?

[17:00] <SteveS> It's the opposite of oxymoron, the way an oxygenating atmosphere is the opposite of a reducing atmosphere.

[17:00] <Krenon> 7. redetermines

[17:00] <Krenon> 8. rhodamines

[17:00] <Krenon> 9. radioimmunoassayable

[17:00] <Krenon> 10. redistribution

[17:00] <Krenon> Betcha don't know what THEY all mean.

[17:00] <Redflame> Want do you want to bet? I already lost one bet today.

[17:00] <Krenon> Hrm .. maybe they're guessable.

[17:00] <SeanPratz> Ummm. I didn't know we were going to be tested.

[17:00] <CrazyEddy> sledgy: Looks like I found a flaw in Moz 1.1.

[17:01] <sledgy> ahh

[17:01] <Redflame> That guy, I can't tell if he is a perfectly proportional male, as there isn't enough detail! :-)

[17:01] <Krenon> Reducigenius would be a double negative, ie the same as oxymoron.

[17:01] <Harry> Sledgy, go OPERA...

[17:02] <sledgy> It works in Opera just fine it appears

[17:02] <Redflame> ah, so by making both terms opposite, you are creating a word which means the same thing.

[17:02] <Harry> The #1 oxymoron is MICROSOFT WORKS!

[17:02] <sledgy> boo!

[17:02] * SteveS applauds!

[17:02] <CrazyEddy> sledgy: That will be the first I've seen after using it for about a month.

[17:02] <Redflame> I always like "Moral majority is neither."

[17:03] <CrazyEddy> sledgy: Tabbed browsing makes the world (wide web) go round.

[17:03] <sledgy> Does it handle Javascript well? Opera doesn't seem to.

[17:03] <Krenon> test

[17:04] <CrazyEddy> I haven't seen a javascript bug yet.

[17:04] <SeanPratz> Corinne says "Hi, Larry. Can I have your autograph?"

[17:04] * SeanPratz smiles

[17:05] <Redflame> Hard to do an autograph session in cyberspace. Hmm. Maybe more virtual con appearances in the future?

[17:05] <fithp> Hi Corinne! --Larry Niven

[17:05] * SeanPratz is cutting and pasting furiously

[17:05] <Harry> Red, that's a judgement not an oxymoron.

[17:05] <SeanPratz> This ought to be WORTH something!

[17:05] <SeanPratz> (She's laughing)

[17:06] <Redflame> Sean, you can make book marks of that, and use them when you are reading a Niven book to her!

[17:06] <SeanPratz> Hey, good idea.

[17:06] <Harry> Sledgy, I D-loaded JAVASCRIPT from the SUN SITE for OPERA. It works quite well except on dedicated M$ sites. But then NOTHING works well on dedicated M$ sites.

[17:06] <fithp> I wish to announce that the following books will probably hit in 2003, early and late:

[17:06] * Redflame listening

[17:07] <fithp> SCATTERBRAIN; THE DRACO TAVERN STORIES; BURNING TOWER

[17:07] * Redflame wondering where my fellow web masters went to....

[17:07] <SeanPratz> Hey Larry - Corinne here for a moment. I had to take a moment away from arting to tell you that you've made a science fiction fan out of me. Never bothered reading this genre until Sean started me on your stuff.

[17:07] <CrazyEddy> Oooh..

[17:07] <Krenon> That's better.

[17:07] <fithp> RINGWORLD'S CHILDREN; CREATION MYTH.

[17:07] <Redflame> Larry is making an announcement, Ted.

[17:07] <Krenon> OK

[17:08] <Harry> Looks like a good year coming Larry. I now have a reason to keep living.

[17:08] <Redflame> Do we get NEW Draco Tavern stories with that book, Larry?

[17:08] <CrazyEddy> Damn I love the short stories.

[17:09] <fithp> Corinne, welcome. (It's not exactly an in group. I'll sell to anyone with brains and money.)

[17:09] <Krenon> THAT's an in group!

[17:09] <Harry> Brains and Money not equivalent.

[17:09] <fithp> The Draco Tavern contract calls for one or two (I'm not clear) new unpublished stories.

[17:10] <Redflame> Even if the contract says one, you can feel free to give us.... five!

[17:10] <SeanPratz> Hell, even if they didn't have brains, you'd still sell to them, wouldn't you?

[17:10] <Harry> Larry, do you ever get entertainers in the DRACO TAVERN?

[17:10] <Harry> Other than the clientele I mean.

[17:10] <Redflame> LOL, Sean. But the people with the brains put out!

[17:10] <SeanPratz> (Sean again. Corinne's not that rude.)

[17:11] <fithp> Entertainers in the Draco Tavern? Hmm.

[17:11] <SeanPratz> I've GOT to get that bumper sticker. "People with brains put out!"

[17:11] * Redflame LOL

[17:11] <Krenon> I immediately think of John Williams' "Cantina Band"

[17:11] <Redflame> Hmm. What about... people of the night in the Draco Tavern?

[17:11] <SeanPratz> Think there's room for a minstrel or two there, Harry?

[17:12] <Harry> Not hinting Larry, but one wonders what a Chirp would consider entertainment...

[17:12] <SteveS> Presumably, many wizards would have some sort of performance skill, that they use in their spells.

[17:12] <fithp> To any sufficiently rude autograph lurker, I generally plan to say:

[17:12] <fithp> "I'm circulating your name and photo to every bookstore and library in the country.

[17:12] <fithp> "Reading Larry Niven is a privilege, not a right!"

[17:13] <SteveS> Ouch! :-)

[17:13] <Redflame> It has got to be a big place, even with screeners at the door. How would one get on the list at the Draco Tavern? Is there a lottery for people who want to become regulars?

[17:13] <SeanPratz> That's it! Circulate their nads!

[17:13] <fithp> But I've never met anyone who deserved that. (Except once, and I lost the opportunity.)

[17:13] <SeanPratz> Damn, eh?

[17:13] <Harry> L*O*V*E it!

[17:13] <Redflame> Lurkers are rude?

[17:14] <Krenon> Ones that come out from behind flower pots at .. er .. tender moments.

[17:14] <fithp> That one seeker blocked me on my way to a panel, when I was on crutches, and wouldn't let me pass until I signed his books.

[17:14] * SeanPratz hangs around Larry's front door waiting for him to pop out and *shoves* a book in his face. "Sign this!"

[17:15] <SeanPratz> shudder>

[17:15] <Krenon> Where was the concom when you needed one?

[17:15] <Redflame> That is rude, to even ask someone on crutches to sign something standing!

[17:15] <SteveS> Crutches can make excellent weapons...

[17:15] <SeanPratz> Heh

[17:15] <Redflame> Sean, duck!

[17:15] <SeanPratz> Thanks. I prefer goose.

[17:15] <Krenon> I think I was polite. Coming as I did at ConJosé after several Klingons.

[17:16] <Redflame> Quick, Sean, goose the crutch!

[17:16] <SeanPratz> Now this is getting out of hand.

[17:16] <SeanPratz> MAN I've got to get to a con.

[17:16] <SeanPratz> :)

[17:17] <Krenon> I have had SUCH a good year for cons!

[17:17] <Redflame> You haven't made it to one?

[17:17] <SeanPratz> Never in my life. Poverty-stricken in Alberta (Canada) for too long. Now I'm doing a bit better. Toronto looks *slightly possible for next year.

[17:17] <Krenon> Started with a modest little one with about 20 people at it, and ended with ConJosé

[17:18] <Redflame> Hey, was reading on an Oxford English Dictionary site, that is looking for original copyrighted references for SF terms. They are having lots of trouble with the fan terms.

[17:18] <Redflame> Krenon, the years has certainly improved with age.

[17:18] <Krenon> That's right. They've been doing it for quite a while.

[17:18] <SeanPratz> Now that the youngest is ten I might have a chance. When the choice is between diapers and con tickets, well...

[17:19] <Redflame> Hopefully, you haven't been having to buy diapers for quite some time now.

[17:19] <Krenon> A diaper absorbs more shit than you do at a con?

[17:19] <SeanPratz> No, but the scars are still there on my wallet.

[17:20] <Redflame> Krenon, lol!

[17:20] <Redflame> They can't find any copyrighted source that uses the word "Fanfic"

[17:21] <Krenon> How about fiawol?

[17:21] <Redflame> That is there, and it is very old.

[17:21] <Harry> or GAFIA

[17:21] <SeanPratz> How about bibawylo?

[17:21] <Redflame> never heard that one.

[17:21] <Krenon> Me neither

[17:21] <SteveS> Nor me.

[17:22] <SeanPratz> Heinlein. "Be In Bed Asleep With Your Legs Open." Can't remember the book. Code between husband and wife.

[17:22] <Redflame> babies in bibs are wild yellow lions.....

[17:22] <SeanPratz> And certainly not worthy of a dictionary entry, but I never forgot i.

[17:22] <Krenon> Not particularly sf oriented wither.

[17:22] <Redflame> That isn't a code, but an order.

[17:23] <Harry> Hmmm Copyright EGOBOO.

[17:23] <Harry> Red, or a request.

[17:23] <Redflame> bibwpe

[17:23] * Redflame blushes

[17:23] <SeanPratz> Hey!

[17:23] * SeanPratz is slow, but he finally got it.

[17:23] * SteveS blushes when he thinks he has it figured out

[17:24] <Krenon> bibwpl

[17:24] <Redflame> Peter: Stop making Carol laugh. It's distracting.

[17:24] <Redflame> pajamas loose?

[17:24] <Krenon> Huh?? Distracting from what?

[17:25] <Redflame> I think Peter is working on his .... strack... his novella of his political beliefs.

[17:25] <Krenon> manifesto?

[17:25] <Redflame> Ted, ....pl?

[17:26] <Redflame> Yes, his "My Dog Ate My Manifesto" book.

[17:26] <SteveS> I'm thinking "limp".

[17:26] <Harry> My Cat hid my Dog's instruction book!

[17:26] <Redflame> No, no, no, Steve. He was thinking of a suggestion for a woman.

[17:26] <SeanPratz> After griping about Rama earlier I sat down to try it again, thinking maybe I just didn't get it. I am *suffering through the third book right now. I still don't know if I can make it through the whole series. I keep thinking "What's the point?"

[17:26] <Krenon> I just told her off the chatroom

[17:27] <Harry> Sean, I gave up on RAMA after book 2.

[17:27] <SeanPratz> Someone please reassure me that it's worth my time...

[17:27] <Harry> Sean, In my opinion. NOT!

[17:27] <Redflame> Rama: I read Keegan one of them when he was in utero. He seems to have survived the experience to become a Niven fan!

[17:27] <SeanPratz> I originally gave up halfway through Garden of Rama. Now I'm trying again. sigh>

[17:28] * SeanPratz applauds!

[17:28] <Krenon> Steve, for pl think vl

[17:28] <Harry> yeah Red. Use of not-so-good SF to turn someone on to REALLY GOOD SF.

[17:29] <sledgy> hehe

[17:29] <Redflame> Yes, but I think that technique only works with constant exposure.

[17:29] <SeanPratz> That's a scary thought. How many people were ruined for life after watching Star Trek or Battleglack Stalarkada?

[17:29] <Redflame> I'm talking about the turning to good sf, not what position to be in in bed.

[17:29] <Harry> Or who's only exposure to SF was EARTH II?

[17:30] <Redflame> ST: some people who like ST also like REAL SF.

[17:30] <Redflame> My first con was a ST con that GREW into a SF con over the years.

[17:30] <SeanPratz> Oh, I enjoyed Voyager, but mostly it was only because I have a crush on Janeway.

[17:30] <Harry> Star Trek turned a lot of people on to SF and some of them actually started reading the stuff.

[17:30] <SteveS> How about the last season of Earth: Final Conflict?

[17:30] <Harry> BLETCH!

[17:31] <Redflame> Never watched the show.

[17:31] <SeanPratz> Babylon 5. That's one of the few that didn't suck, imho.

[17:31] <Redflame> B5 also takes some getting used to.

[17:31] <SeanPratz> One of the few American ones, that is.. I never gave the British ones any time to judge.

[17:31] <sledgy> The only redemption for Voyage, imo, is 7of9's mammaries.

[17:32] * SeanPratz never noticed. Really!

[17:32] <fithp> All of Boston fandom gathered to watch Star Trek, first season. That WAS science fiction.

[17:32] <Redflame> I think the general populous could use some SF that isn't too far different from life today. Like, the ARM stories for instance.

[17:32] <SteveS> EFC started out fairly interesting, then by the last season, it devolved into the lowest common denominator, sort of a clone of First Wave, but even worse.

[17:32] <Krenon> Psychic arms are not too different from life today?

[17:33] <SteveS> An invasion of horny, not terribly bright aliens versus humans too stupid to deserve to win.

[17:33] <Krenon> Julie the mind reader? Colonisation of the Belt?

[17:33] <SeanPratz> I know at least two or three guys who have a psychic protuberance of some sort...

[17:33] <fithp> ARM was more SF, less real, when published.

[17:33] <Krenon> Aircars?

[17:33] <Redflame> It is in a world not too different from ours. Yes, a psychic arm is a bit strange, but only a *little.*

[17:33] <Krenon> Oh. I thought the first story was the best.

[17:33] <Harry> BAB5 was pretty good. KAREN ANDERSEN wrote a Musical on GOOD SHIP TRECKASTAR... Very funny!

[17:34] <Krenon> That's not to downgrade the others.

[17:34] <fithp> I meant government organlegging.

[17:34] <Krenon> But I though the best moments were in Death by Ecstasy.

[17:34] <Redflame> Yeah, since I was only learning to write my NAME when some of this stuff was published, I don't have a real good perspective on how they seemed at the time.

[17:34] <Harry> The Chinese Government is ORGANLEGGING Larry... The UN is NOT investigating.

[17:34] <SeanPratz> Trying to make Larry feel old?

[17:35] <Redflame> Like the scene in ST where Kirk and Uhura kiss. It wasn't some huge deal to me that a black woman and a white man would kiss on TV. I didn't live through the '50s.

[17:35] <Krenon> Gil Hamilton's trail of consciousness as he gets drunk is some of the best writing I've read.

[17:35] * Redflame blushes again

[17:35] <SeanPratz> brb

[17:35] <Harry> You don't realize you're old until you recognize that there was LESS history to learn when you first learned it.

[17:35] <SteveS> If that makes him feel old, then I'd better keep quiet... ;-)

[17:35] <Krenon> Except that picking up a beautiful woman at the end is rather improbable

[17:36] <Redflame> Some of us here aren't any strangers to picking up beautiful women.

[17:36] <Harry> Yeah Red... A white kissing a BLACK was considered the "KISS" of death to the networks, but StarTrek was applauded for it... Evenin the South.

[17:36] <SeanPratz> Back. Ah. Coffee.

[17:36] <Krenon> I've never "picked up a beautiful woman"

[17:37] <Redflame> I thought that since it was a FORCED kiss, that neither one wanted it, then it shouldn't even count as a KISS.

[17:37] <sledgy> Where you set one down is really key to the notability.

[17:37] <SeanPratz> That's probably the only way they would have tried it back then.

[17:37] * Redflame wonders if Krenon merely chats them up?

[17:37] <Krenon> Now if a man made of ordinary matter kissed a woman made of antimatter ...

[17:38] <Redflame> Now that wold cause some attention!

[17:38] <Krenon> Well, Carol, I had to chat you up for six years :-D

[17:38] <SeanPratz> Did you two meet online?

[17:39] <Redflame> Yes, and only once f2f!

[17:39] <Krenon> Yes. September 1996

[17:39] <Redflame> Ted, who chatted who up first?

[17:39] <Krenon> F2F on 28 August 2002

[17:39] <SeanPratz> No kidding! No wonder I understand you!

[17:39] <Krenon> At about 11.47 am

[17:39] <SeanPratz> That's how Corinne and I met.

[17:39] <Krenon> Local time

[17:39] <SeanPratz> Heh. Then again, I didn't LOG exact times...

[17:40] * SeanPratz grins at Ted.

[17:40] <Krenon> That was a big moment.

[17:40] <Redflame> And you two got married? How sweet. I know someone else who met her future husband on-line.

[17:40] * Redflame blushes

[17:41] <Krenon> That did not happen to me. Ros and I met F2F

[17:41] <SeanPratz> C. and I met on a local BBS in 1993.

[17:41] <Krenon> In 1974.

[17:41] * SeanPratz gets all misty thinking about flirting via door games...

[17:41] <CrazyEddy> Hah.

[17:42] <Redflame> Sean, you ever go to strange chat rooms to meet again?

[17:43] <SeanPratz> Sort of a "fantasy thing." Heh. No. Makes it tough having only the one computer, too.

[17:43] <SeanPratz> Man, was that *ever a geeky way to get together back then. Now it's old hat.

[17:43] <sledgy> "Evolution in action" - which one is this from?

[17:43] <SeanPratz> Oath of Fealty

[17:44] <sledgy> Ah yes.

[17:44] <SeanPratz> Tony Rand. (Right?)

[17:44] <Harry> The trouble with EVOLUTION is that sometimes it take too frigging long.

[17:44] <sledgy> J. Pournelle

[17:44] * SeanPratz needs a life

[17:44] <SeanPratz> brb

[17:44] <CrazyEddy> That's why we have Revolution.

[17:45] <sledgy> I was just thinking wouldn't it be nice to have an implanted 'net uplink.

[17:46] <SeanPratz> Can you imagine the SPAM!

[17:46] <Krenon> I would NOT like my brain linked to the Internet.

[17:46] <CrazyEddy> But then people would go surfing the net in their dreams and it would be even worse.

[17:46] <Harry> It would have to be a Consciously selective link... Can you imagine all the SPAM you'd get if it wasn't?

[17:46] <sledgy> haha

[17:46] * SeanPratz highfives Harry

[17:47] <sledgy> SPAM filters might be an exercise in careful control of thought

[17:47] <SeanPratz> Argh! I'm inundated with pop-ups!

[17:47] <CrazyEddy> Of course, subliminal advertising could reach a whole new level.

[17:47] * SteveS shudders

[17:47] <SeanPratz> ...people walking into walls...

[17:48] <Harry> PORN!

[17:48] <SeanPratz> And pop-unders might be considered assault...

[17:48] * sledgy ^5's Harry.

[17:49] <CrazyEddy> But hey, porn quality would improve if people uploaded their wet dreams..!

[17:50] <Harry> Joe BETHINCOURT on RADIO right now!

[17:50] <sledgy> I wonder if you got hacked, would your brain crash?

[17:50] <Harry> PRESCOTT Folk FESTIVAL!

[17:50] <Redflame> My dreams are not nearly so erotic as my day dreams!

[17:50] <SeanPratz> Do you really think that half the fantasies of half the people out there would be worthy of the label?

[17:50] * SeanPratz nods

[17:51] * Krenon thinks this says more about her daydreams than her dreams

[17:51] <Harry> How would you handle multiple windows?

[17:51] <SeanPratz> If I wrote the things I dreamed I wouldn't make any sense at all. It's the daydreams that are interesting.

[17:52] <SeanPratz> "RealNetworks has determined that your brain needs an upgrade"

[17:52] <sledgy> screw Windows...

[17:52] <SeanPratz> shudder>

[17:52] <Redflame> I went through a stage of writing poems after my night time dreams. People thought they were really really weird, even though they made sense to me.

[17:52] <CrazyEddy> Microsoft Con$umer version 2.1.

[17:52] <Redflame> Talk about the need for a good firewall!

[17:52] <SeanPratz> I'm trying that. I installed Linux on a new partition. Then I defragged Windows and lost it all. Sheeit!

[17:52] <Harry> Penalties for people who didn't go to off-line while sleeping? Hackers who WANTED access to people's dreams and sub-conscious?

[17:53] <fithp> Yes, daydreams are generally better organized.

[17:53] <Krenon> Do you ever get ideas for stories from dreams?

[17:53] <SeanPratz> It's the directed dreams (daydreams) that really make for exciting stories.

[17:53] <SeanPratz> It's hard to be consistent in dreamsville.

[17:53] <sledgy> Sean, that's like setting up shop in a Gorilla's cage. Always use a different drive.

[17:53] <Krenon> Our local writers seem to rely heavily on dreams for inspiration

[17:54] <fithp> When young I tried putting my dreams in stories. Didn't work at all.

[17:54] <Redflame> Wait! Surfing while sleeping might be a valid form of dreaming, or learning while sleeping, ending the need to RNA injections!

[17:54] <SeanPratz> Too late now. Now I've got to reformat everything and start from scratch. The next machine will be Linux only.

[17:54] <Harry> To me, writing is directed day-Dreaming.

[17:54] * SeanPratz nods

[17:55] <Redflame> Fithp: Not at all? So there is nothing in PRINT you could point to and say "See? That didn't work well"?

[17:55] <SeanPratz> Of course, when you're *stuck* in a story, sometimes dreaming helps. I'm waiting for chapter seven to evolve in my mind every night. It's driving me crazy!

[17:55] * SeanPratz is pulling his hair out, and getting very tired of re-writing to keep the fingers nimble.

[17:56] <Krenon> I think that is why so many writers are bald

[17:56] <SeanPratz> I know! I'll collaborate with A.C. Clarke!

[17:56] * SeanPratz snickers evilly..

[17:56] <CrazyEddy> SeanPratz: An old 486 makes an excellent Linux machine.

[17:57] <SeanPratz> Indeed it would. An old 486 also made a good gift. I have no old computers laying about. :(

[17:57] <sledgy> I must flee. Pleasure talking with you folks today. Thanks for the feedback on the model!

[17:57] <Harry> Adios sledgy.

[17:57] <Redflame> Or, to paraphrase my brother: "Any man can grow hair on his head. It takes a real SF writer to keep it pulled out."

[17:57] <SeanPratz> Seeya sledgy.

[17:57] <Harry> Any time.

[17:57] <CrazyEddy> Seeya Sledgy.

[17:57] <Krenon> OK. Catch you later.

[17:57] <SteveS> Bye, Sledgy!

[17:57] <Redflame> Bye!

[17:57] <fithp> SeanPratz should write a short story.

[17:58] <SeanPratz> I've written a bunch. I'm far more cliched in short

form.

[17:58] <SteveS> Yup, sounds like a good approach to programming, too. If you're stuck, work on something else.

[17:58] <Redflame> Sean, don't let my husband hear you say you want an out of date computer....

[17:59] <SeanPratz> See, I write online for a living. Some gawdawful uninspiring crap. It ruins me by the end of the day. :(

[17:59] <CrazyEddy> Indeed.

[17:59] <SeanPratz> I want an out of date computer.

[17:59] <SeanPratz> :)

[17:59] <Redflame> Where do you live?

[17:59] <Harry> I'd like a 486 for a LINUX box.

[17:59] <SeanPratz> Vancouver Island.

[18:00] <SeanPratz> Too far to drive, not worth the shipping.

[18:00] <CrazyEddy> You can get P1s for $50 around here.

[18:00] <SeanPratz> Or "worth," even.

[18:00] <Krenon> I saw a web page with good uses for out of date computers. It shows you how to make them into goldfish tanks.

[18:00] <CrazyEddy> Go to an auction house.

[18:00] <Redflame> I heard that NASA was buying up old computer parts on eBay.

[18:01] <SeanPratz> I swear, though, I *will get this book done. Then *watch out*! I'll be cranking them out at least one per decade.

[18:01] <SeanPratz> Watch me go!

[18:01] <Harry> Yeah Red. A friend told me that the new chips don't adapt well to Aero-Space environments.

[18:01] * SeanPratz smirks

[18:01] <fithp> I can't believe I burned up three hours doing this. Thanks for the story ideas, and fare you well, all.

[18:02] * SeanPratz waves to Larry

[18:02] <Krenon> Thanks for dropping in

[18:02] <Redflame> Bye Larry!

[18:02] <SeanPratz> Thanks for making Corinne's day! (And mine)

[18:02] <Krenon> Bye

[18:02] <SteveS> Bye, Larry! I'm very glad you came.

[18:02] <Harry> Adios Larry. Have a good one.

[18:03] <Redflame> Story ideas: take all you can, please!

[18:03] <Krenon> Yup

[18:03] <SeanPratz> Write fast!

[18:03] <SteveS> grin>

[18:03] <Krenon> No. Write slow. I want to read it slow

[18:03] <Redflame> He can write fast, you can read slow!

[18:04] <Harry> Love to see what's next at THE DRACO.

[18:04] <CrazyEddy> Redflame: That's _very_ old computer parts. Pre-PC computer parts.

[18:04] <CrazyEddy> Doh.

[18:04] <Redflame> Hmm?

[18:05] <Harry> Hmmm, NASA trading with Aliens and doesn't want to give them our latest tech?

[18:05] <SteveS> I would hope that if they were trading with aliens, we'd have gotten farther into space.

[18:06] <tom> no one makes the older chipsets they have in service.

[18:06] <Redflame> Yes, let's do a Kzin and buy a space craft design from the Outsiders.

[18:06] <SteveS> Unless they want to hide their base on Farside...

[18:06] <Redflame> NASA wants pre-PC parts? So, I can't gift my 286 to them?

[18:06] <tom> so it's buy old stuff online, or redesign everything on today's hardware, but good ol "w" won't give up the money.

[18:07] <tom> yeah stuff like 8086

[18:07] <Redflame> Gee, I used to work on an 8086.

[18:08] <Redflame> Tom, have you been lurking most of this time? Come on to help me get rid of the flamer, and then only when Larry Niven leaves?

[18:08] <SteveS> What's the big problem with newer chips? Do the newer chips need more cooling, or are they hurt more by vibration, or what?

[18:08] <tom> something like that.

[18:08] <tom> it was fishtank cleaning day

[18:08] <Redflame> Vibration is a big problem.

[18:09] <tom> so I haven't much been paying attention

[18:09] <Harry> Tom, That's CONGRESS...

[18:09] <CrazyEddy> The newer chips are more susceptible to electrical problems too.

[18:09] <Redflame> I recall hearing that the hard disks in new computers fracture due to the lifting off vibrations. Never did stress analysis on laptops.

[18:09] <tom> cause it takes a long time to filter 10 gallons of water through a britta pitcher

[18:09] <Redflame> Why can't you use the little drops?

[18:09] <Krenon> back

[18:10] <tom> I use them too

[18:10] <Harry> I have an old 8086 Machine. Jerry's LUCY.

[18:10] <tom> but there's something to be said for clean water.

[18:10] <tom> water in canada tastes like asscrack

[18:10] <Redflame> Was it Lucy upon which the fist SF novel written on a computer was written?

[18:10] <SteveS> Named for the Australopithecine?

[18:11] <Krenon> Tom, how can you generalize about the taste of water throughout Canada.

[18:11] <Krenon> ?

[18:11] <Harry> The Second... Jerry wrote the first on his old Z-80 "ZEKE" That one is in the Smith...

[18:11] <tom> ok water here in canada

[18:12] <SeanPratz> We've got a plumbing problem. Gotta run guys.

[18:12] <SeanPratz> Thanks for the chat!

[18:12] <Redflame> Bye!

[18:12] <Krenon> Bye

[18:12] <SteveS> Worse than asscrack? LOL

[18:12] <SteveS> Bye, Sean!

[18:12] <tom> see he has canadian water too

[18:12] <CrazyEddy> Seeya Sean.

[18:13] <Krenon> I worked in the field of water and its quality for most of my working life.

[18:13] <Krenon> I could not possibly say anything about Australian water in general.

[18:13] <tom> oh I can generalize about anything, it's much easier than you'd think :-)

[18:13] <Krenon> It differs widely. Melbourne water is excellent. Adelaide water ...

[18:14] <CrazyEddy> i've heard that .au water is cleaner than the bought Evian water.

[18:14] <Redflame> Okay here is one: Never generalize.

[18:14] <Krenon> ... you don't know whether you've had it or you're going to.

[18:14] <Harry> Peggy just walked in and handed me THE PRINCE (Jerry Pournelle & S.M. Sterling)

[18:14] <SeanPratz> Argh. How do you save a log in mIRC?

[18:14] <CrazyEddy> Redflame: _never_ generalize?

[18:14] <SteveS> Never, ever. :-)

[18:14] <Krenon> It should save the log for you if you have it set up right

[18:15] <SeanPratz> Got it figured out.

[18:15] <Redflame> I was trying to make a generalization that really doesn't work.

[18:15] <Redflame> What never?

[18:15] <SeanPratz> Thanks.

[18:15] <Harry> Bring up mIRC Pick RANDOM CHATNET SERVER When it registers look for #knownspace and click on it.

[18:15] <Harry> A generalization that doesn't work? MICROSOFT WORKS!

[18:16] <Redflame> Hi SheWolf

[18:16] <SteveS> Hi SheWolf!

[18:16] <Redflame> That wouldn't be wrona, would it? :-)

[18:16] * SheWolf waves

[18:16] <Harry> Hmmm, $2495 for the prince, I think it weighs about 10 lbs... Worth the cost on tat basis alone!

[18:17] <Harry> $24.95!

[18:17] <Harry> Hi SheWolf.

[18:17] <Redflame> Sounds too heavy to read!

[18:17] <SteveS> For $2495, it had better come with the prince himself!

[18:17] <Harry> Defiantly a Coffee Table book.

[18:17] <Redflame> SheWolf, you've found a room of Niven fen.

[18:18] <SheWolf> hell... for 2495 it better be carved outta solid gold

[18:18] <tom> SheWolf is sitting behind me

[18:18] * SheWolf grinz

[18:18] <SteveS> Ah.

[18:18] <Harry> Welcome SheWolf.

[18:18] <SheWolf> you have that wrong tho tom... YOU are sitting behind ME

[18:18] <tom> blah

[18:18] <SheWolf> lol

[18:19] <Harry> Sorry, I forgot the decimal point.

[18:19] <Krenon> That's ridiculous.

[18:19] <Redflame> I'd settle for 10 bounds sterling. That would cover it, right?

[18:20] <SteveS> I *think* closer to 15.

[18:21] <Harry> $42.50 Canadian.

[18:21] <Krenon> AU$45.50

[18:21] <Redflame> Okay, how about IMPERIAL pounds?

[18:21] <Krenon> 15.90

[18:21] <Redflame> I mean sterling silver, not British pounds.

[18:21] <SheWolf> at 24.95 US.... that would be more like 1mil canadian

[18:21] <Krenon> Sterling IS British

[18:22] <Redflame> I meant STERLING SILVER!

[18:22] <Krenon> Btw on another matter entirely: what are the two American mints. Philadelphia and ?

[18:23] <tom> more than 2 if I remember correctly

[18:23] <tom> Denver is one

[18:23] <Redflame> Colorado

[18:23] <Krenon> Something starting with D

[18:23] <Krenon> Denver?

[18:23] <Krenon> OK

[18:23] <Redflame> Denver, I bet. Is there a D on one of those coins you took home?

[18:24] <Krenon> There are apparently only two mints involved with the commemorative quarters.

[18:24] <Harry> 10 pounds Sterling! /kARRRRG

[18:24] <Krenon> Most of them have D on them. Just a few have P.

[18:25] <Redflame> That would make it cheaper to make all those commemorative quarters.

[18:25] <Redflame> There is another mint that doesn't put a letter on the coins, I think.

[18:26] <SteveS> Looks like it, based on the brief survey of my pocket change...

[18:26] <Krenon> Well if I ever find an American coin with no letter, I'll know it came from THAT mint.

[18:26] <Redflame> You want me to save the rest of the commemorative quarters for you? I could get you one of those books to hold the coins in.

[18:26] <Harry> The Clinton Administration didn't want CHEAP, they wanted FLASHY.

[18:27] <Krenon> I ended up taking home five Sacagaweas. :-)

[18:27] <Redflame> I know you are trying to insult Clinton again. But more than just people who like Clinton like those quarters.

[18:27] <SteveS> I only get those Sacajaweas from stamp dispenser machines.

[18:27] <Krenon> Thank you for the offer Carol but I'm really not that heavily into coins.

[18:27] <tom> http://www.coinclub.com/coininfo/mints.html

[18:27] <Redflame> I'm sure Sacagewea is worth having more than once!

[18:28] <Redflame> Steve, You have never waited my table, or left a tooth under a pillow in my house.

[18:28] <Krenon> I actually kept a few examples of American paper money too.

[18:28] <Harry> Red, do you know the most common disease suffered by the Lewis & Clark expedition?

[18:29] <Redflame> diarrhea?

[18:29] <SteveS> I'd get more of the Sacajaweas, if only vending machines took them. They'd be so much easier to use than bills!

[18:29] <SheWolf> just be grateful you're not stuck with $1 and $2 coins

[18:30] <Harry> Close GONEREAH

[18:30] <Krenon> Australia gave up $1 and $2 bills years ago, but we have $1 and $2 coins.

[18:30] <Redflame> Some vending machines do take them. If you and everyone else went to the bank and put all the golden dollars in circulation, the vendors would start putting them on machines.

[18:30] <Krenon> I have np problems with $1 and $2 coins.

[18:30] <Harry> They caught it from the Blackfoot tribe who got it from French Traders.

[18:30] <SheWolf> the only good thing about them... is when I empty out the change in my purse, I usually have over $20

[18:30] <SteveS> Ah. I was wondering who gave it to who.

[18:31] <Krenon> Who were Lewis and Clark?

[18:31] <Krenon> I thought you meant LOIS and Clark :-)

[18:31] <Redflame> Lewis and Clark were famous explorers that crossed the wild west in the.... 1800s

[18:31] <SteveS> Two explorers who traveled across the entire continental US at the turn of the 19th century.

[18:31] <Redflame> must be syphilis (sp) then.

[18:32] <Harry> Lewis and Clark were commissioned by THOMAS JEFFERSON to explore the Mississippi River to it's Westernmost tributary and find a route to the Pacific Ocean... They did so.

[18:32] <Redflame> Two explorers and their HUGE entourage!

[18:32] <Harry> They started with 30 men, the came back with 11.

[18:32] <Krenon> Ah! So they saw the Pacific from the west coast? So did I :-)

[18:32] <SteveS> Including their American Indian woman guide, Sacajawea, and her baby.

[18:33] <Krenon> But I've seen it from the other side too.

[18:33] <Redflame> I bet that baby was half white.

[18:33] * SheWolf LIVES on the west coast ;P~

[18:33] <Krenon> Oh.

[18:33] <Harry> You didn't have to explore a path through the rocky mountains and the Sierras Ted.

[18:33] <SteveS> Wouldn't surprise me.

[18:33] <Krenon> What town do you live in / near, SheWolf?

[18:34] <SheWolf> near vancouver

[18:34] <Harry> It was... Sacajawea had her French husband along...

[18:34] <Redflame> Oh, so she probably wasn't raped while helping her countries invaders.

[18:34] <Harry> JEEZE Red. Talk about being TOTALLY BIOASED!

[18:35] <Redflame> bioased?

[18:35] <Harry> BIASED!

[18:35] <Krenon> BIO-ASSED?

[18:35] <SteveS> Having a natural, rather than a prosthetic, ass. ;-)

[18:35] <Redflame> We did invade. What is the problem?

[18:35] <Redflame> I swear, it is ALL natural!

[18:35] <Krenon> You left some of the natives alive.

[18:36] <Harry> Not everyone raped... In Fact RAPE was a regular occurrence by Indians towards other Tribes women...

[18:36] <Redflame> Yes, some of them. The remainder we forced to live as children.

[18:37] <Redflame> I think you could say similar things about most cultures around the world. Rape was a regular occurrence.

[18:37] <Harry> Red, I live next to an Apache Reservation. They have their grudges, true, but they also have their pride... That statement to them is an insult!

[18:37] <SteveS> Killing the Bureau of Indian Affairs would be a big help.

[18:37] <Harry> Agreed Steve... I TOTALLY agree.

[18:38] <Redflame> Yes, but today, some native ams view IA as a form of Indian welfare.

[18:38] <Krenon> Calling them Indians doesn't imho do them a big favour.

[18:38] <Harry> But we can't kill them off until we recover all the Tribal moneys that they haven't paid out.

[18:38] <Redflame> I'm from Oklahoma. We do still use the word. They aren't at all like "African Americans"

[18:38] <SteveS> Many of the ones I've seen on TV prefer the name "Indians" to the more PC "Native American".

[18:38] <Krenon> Oh, I see. THEN you'll kill them off.

[18:39] <Harry> It is Red, and the thinking ones consider it a machine for keeping the tribes drunk and on drugs.

[18:39] <Redflame> Can't kill of the BIA? Not the Indians.

[18:39] <SteveS> Either one treats them as all the same people, instead of many different tribes with different cultures.

[18:39] <Krenon> It is, I'll admit, better than some of the epithets by which our natives are known.

[18:39] <Redflame> My sister-in-law uses the Indian hospital as her only medical line.

[18:40] <Harry> Krenon, Most of what you see on tv are Indian "ACTIVISTS"... the same kind of loudmouth as the Religious Activist or RACE Activist... ie Publicity junkies.

[18:41] <Redflame> Yes, but that is a misnomer too. As _I_ am a Native American, no matter how much or how little Indian, um, red man, um, tribal, um, national, um Native American blood I have in me.

[18:41] <Harry> I asked an Apache I know how he wanted to be addressed... he said Fred would do.

[18:41] <Krenon> OK but there were the *original* natives.

[18:41] <SteveS> I have a smidge of Cherokee ancestry myself.

[18:42] <Harry> Actually Ted, they were about 15th in the line of invaders... across the Bering Sea. The original ones are down at the tip of South America.

[18:42] <Krenon> I'm afraid that I probably have no trace of Australian native ancestry.

[18:43] <Krenon> So were the people you call 'Indians" actually invaders?

[18:43] <Harry> I know that Ted... I didn't think you were a marsupial or a monotreme.

[18:43] <SteveS> groan>

[18:43] <SteveS> :-)

[18:43] <Krenon> Hrmph... I mean the human natives.

[18:43] <Harry> Yupper Ted. No trace of Humans until about 40,000 years back.

[18:44] <Harry> JK Ted.

[18:44] <Harry> BTW Ted, Have you seen the Movie QUIGLEY DOWN UNDER?

[18:45] <Krenon> As I understand it, the natives that Captain Cook found in Australia (and the Dutch explorers on the west coast before him) were as close as can be got to the original inhabitants. Not so the Maoris of New Zealand. They invaded the country in about 1000 AD. Er CE.

[18:45] <Krenon> No

[18:45] <Krenon> Quigley?

[18:46] <SteveS> They probably were. It's hard to imagine *two separate* groups making it all the way to Australia that early.

[18:46] <Harry> ABOS... It's an interesting story about a Western Sharp Shooter Hired to come to Australia back about 1890.

[18:47] <Krenon> It's thought that they came over a land bridge from Asia but of course nobody knows for sure.

[18:47] <Harry> America Sharpsooter.

[18:47] <SteveS> Oh yeah, lower ocean level due to ice age.

[18:47] <Krenon> Have you seen or heard anything of the movie "Rabbit Proof Fence"?

[18:47] <Harry> maybe they came on floating logs like everything else did?

[18:48] <Harry> Nope Ted. Sounds interesting. Is it in VHS?

[18:48] <Krenon> Don't know. It is a very good take on the practice of taking half caste children away from their parents and rearing them in state institutions.

[18:48] <Harry> Hmmm, Wasn't the time of BURNING CITY about the time of one of the Ice Ages?

[18:49] <Krenon> Three girls try to escape. They tackle tracks in outback Western Australia that would bring down heroes with thirst.

[18:49] <Harry> In Quigley, QUIGLEY (Tom Selick) Is hired to shoot Abos, but he won't do it. He ends up helping them instead... It's a good film.

[18:50] <Krenon> That is a PC plot anyway.

[18:50] <SteveS> I think the world may have been coming out of ice age by then, which is why agricultural started catching on.

[18:50] <Harry> Tom Selic is pretty careful about what he chooses... This one is a pretty good story.

[18:52] <Krenon> I haven't seen it but I highly approve of anything of that nature myself. The current citizens of Australia have gone a long way towards destroying the culture and communal pride of the original natives.

[18:53] <Harry> There seems to be some evidence that Agriculture caught on before the Ice recession... I suspect what they call SOW, MOVE and Return agriculture.

[18:53] <Krenon> Incidentally, as you can well imagine, the word "abo" is not PC though I think it is still used in some places.

[18:53] <Harry> I think you'd like QUIGLEY.

[18:54] <Krenon> I'll keep an eye out for it in the video shops.

[18:54] <SteveS> I wasn't entirely sure about the timeline there. I remember agriculture started around 10K years ago, and I have no idea when the last ice age was ending.

[18:55] <Harry> You might have to order it, but it's worth the trouble... I have it in my collection.

[18:56] <Harry> Sow and move is VERY Early Steve. They found it by middens.

OLD middens showing a systematic return to the same spot.

[18:56] * SteveS nods

[18:57] <Krenon> I will have to love ya n leave ya. I'll stay on line for the log.

[18:57] <Harry> Donaldson at Berkley (I think) proposed it might be as old as 60,000 years.

[18:57] <Redflame> Okay, nice seeing you, Ted.

[18:58] <Harry> Thanks Ted... It's been fun.

[18:58] <SteveS> Bye, Ted!

[18:58] <Harry> Adios Ted

[18:59] <SteveS> Sounds like around the time of the Great Leap Forward, when humans appear to have gotten a lot smarter almost overnight.

[19:00] <Harry> Yeah, well There was a lot of trad going on too... Ancient man was smarter than people suppose... and more sophisticated.

[19:00] <SteveS> Like using textiles way earlier than people originally thought.

[19:00] <Redflame> Sometimes, only a little nudge will open up a lot of possibilities.

[19:01] <Redflame> I think one only needs to glance at an orangutan for the idea of spinning to take hold!

[19:02] <Harry> I think that maybe the idea of TRADE was the key factor.

[19:03] <Harry> people see something, trade for something then Improvise so they can make something like it locally.

[19:05] <SteveS> Jared Diamond suggests the invention of complex language, which allows deeper thought, and makes it easier to share techniques. That would certainly open up ideas like trade, planting seeds = more food later, etc.

[19:05] <Redflame> Language does affect our thinking.

[19:08] <SteveS> He suggests that Neanderthals grew bigger brains than ours for a while to make them smarter, which they needed more food to maintain. Later on, the invention of complex language let us think better than all that extra gray matter they had, using less food.

[19:10] <SteveS> Before that, there was simpler language, probably closer to what the sign-language apes use, with simpler syntax, smaller vocabulary, etc.

[19:11] <Redflame> So, if one had the body of a homo sapient, and the brain of a neanderthal....

[19:11] <SteveS> One of those "experimental" Neanderthals taught a human language from childhood would be pretty freakin' smart. :-)

[19:13] <Redflame> But the homo Sapiens were able to develop a more complex language, rather than just LEARN it. Is that what you are saying?

[19:13] <Harry> Well, you can't think about something that you don't have a language concept of... Even if you label the concept THING... pretty soon you identify it as Plant Thing, then shiny red Plant Thing.

[19:14] <SteveS> Maybe with better luck, a modern human or a Neanderthal could have learned the trick earlier, and we would be farther ahead now.

[19:15] <SteveS> After the first human figured it out, it would spread to others, the same way the basic idea of writing spread more recently.

[19:15] <Harry> Some things take time And is limited by the input from the surrounding environment.

[19:16] <SteveS> Then, a sudden new wave of smarter humans resulted, able to make more specialized tools, and paint genuine art on their cave walls.

[19:16] <Harry> It takes time for individuals ideas to catch on... Some concepts are useful only according to seasons, others only other conditions...

[19:16] <SteveS> Yup.

[19:17] <Harry> memory comes into play here.

[19:18] <SteveS> There's also the theory that we got smarter when we got good enough nutrition -- fish oils, for example. Maybe that had to happen before complex language could be invented.

[19:19] <Redflame> Good nutrition does make a huge difference.

[19:19] <Redflame> It is so hard to convince some people of this!

[19:19] <Harry> How about ALL OF THE ABOVE... I detest people that are looking for a Selective trigger and ignore the whole of the thing. All the factors have to combine.

[19:20] <Harry> The Aborigines in "Native State' don't have much of a nutritious diet, but they're still pretty smart.

[19:22] <Redflame> People get lots smarter when given proper nutrition.

[19:22] <Harry> Not always Red. There are other factors too.

[19:22] <SteveS> I think they went to Australia a few millennia after the Great Leap. They probably wouldn't have been able to get there and thrive without complex language.

[19:23] <SteveS> And all the other innovations humans made around that time.

[19:23] <Redflame> I know there are lots of factors, Frank.

[19:23] <Harry> Agreed Steve... Also, back then, Australia was more "LUSH" then now.

[19:25] <Harry> I'd like to get5 a fairly complete picture of life back about 40,000 years, but I wouldn't want to live there.

[19:25] <SteveS> And also full of some big, scary predators.

[19:26] <Redflame> I wouldn't even want to live a couple hundred years ago! I like penicillin, and I like indoor plumbing!

[19:26] <SteveS> Carnivorous kangaroos, marsupial lions, large carnivorous terror birds, etc. The early Aborigines really had guts to take on those things!

[19:26] <Harry> yeah... Consider that most Cave Bears were bigger than modern Grizzlies and THEY top 3/4 of a ton!

[19:26] <SteveS> brb

[19:27] <Harry> Also lots of bigger game animals... However, there were smaller ones too.

[19:27] <Redflame> Gotta have some language skills to hunt in a successful pack. Can't just bark and nip.

[19:29] <SteveS> back

[19:30] <Harry> Wolfs do ok Red. And their language is mostly bark and nip.

[19:30] <Redflame> Hi captain1

[19:30] <Harry> Hi Captain.

[19:30] <SteveS> Hi captain1!

[19:31] <Redflame> Well, if they had language skill they could kill something bigger and feed more of them.

[19:31] <captain1> hello

[19:31] <Redflame> Captain, you've stumbled across a bunch of Larry Niven fans discussing evolution.

[19:31] <captain1> ok

[19:32] <captain1> our evolution or larry nivens characters??

[19:32] <Harry> Why? Wolfs usually only take on the Young, Stupid, old or wounded. You don't need a lot more than stelth and a bit of cooperation for that.

[19:33] <Harry> Ours mostly...

[19:33] <captain1> hehehe ok

[19:34] <SteveS> Although a good discussion of how some Niven-invented species evolved would also be cool.

[19:35] <captain1> the evolution of the kzinti interesting

[19:35] <Redflame> Hey, did any of you know that a duck's foot has CLAWS?

[19:35] <SteveS> Weird!

[19:35] <captain1> ive often wondered why they never made a movie out of the man-kzin wars or ringworld

[19:36] <Redflame> I was attacked by a duck recently. It's claws caught on my dress.

[19:36] <SteveS> Hollywood politics.

[19:36] <Redflame> There are rumors of a MKW movie, and a RW movie.

[19:36] <Harry> Yeah Red... Some ducks even use them to climb on trees. Wood Ducks!

[19:36] <captain1> that would be sooo awesome

[19:36] <Harry> Truly Captain.

[19:36] <SteveS> Larry announced a Ringworld movie at a con before the Hollywood folks were ready to announce it, and that got the whole movie canned.

[19:37] <captain1> well that sucks

[19:37] <Redflame> I wonder how fast the word would have gotten around had I not posted it to the list?

[19:37] <Harry> Yeah Steve. Hollywood types are Idiots.

[19:37] <captain1> why yes they are

[19:37] <Redflame> Yes, I personally started a world wide rumor! I now ask permission to pass on rumors!

[19:37] <Harry> Fans communicate Red... it showed more places than THE LIST.

[19:37] <Redflame> They got it from the list, Frank.

[19:39] <Harry> Ah Well.

[19:41] <SteveS> After Fellowship of the Rings and Spiderman, the time is definitely ripe for a good SF movie, if only Hollywood can ever get enough sense to do it.

[19:41] <Harry> Neither of those movies were "HOLLYWOOD" productions Steve. Both Independent.

[19:42] <Redflame> Well, the two towers and the next potter movie are coming out.

[19:42] <Redflame> I saw some adverts for some good movies last time I went.

[19:43] <Harry> Both Independent productions again. It seems that Hollywood couldn't/wouldn't offer enough money for the people involved to relinquish control.

[19:44] <Redflame> Is it only independent films that are shooting in AU and NZ?

[19:44] <SteveS> They're too stupid to learn lessons from those movies. Give control to people who actually care about the source material, then leave them alone.

[19:45] <Harry> No, but independent companies find NZ and Aus favorable to them...

[19:45] <Redflame> How much money does it take to make a film? 100 million is nothing, isn't it?

[19:46] <Harry> Are you kidding steve? Then how would they find jobs for otherwise unemployable nieces and nephews?

[19:46] <SteveS> Exactly. :-)

[19:46] <Harry> 100 Mil is about right IF you don't have a lot of deadwood and Studio "Executives" to support.

[19:47] <CrazyEddy> Budget films can be made.

[19:47] <Redflame> I suppose it would be too difficult to find 100 people with a million dollars to loose, to make an independent film.

[19:48] <CrazyEddy> The real cost of a budget film is the equipment and the media.

[19:48] <CrazyEddy> And that isn't cheap.

[19:48] <Redflame> media, the film?

[19:48] <CrazyEddy> As in, studio quality camera, studio quality film, etc.

[19:49] <Redflame> You really only NEED one camera and one slicing machine.

[19:49] <CrazyEddy> No camcorders allowed.

[19:49] <CrazyEddy> Human resources can be gotten cheap out of school.

[19:50] <Redflame> that movie about the witches in the woods was done with a camcorder. I think the lesson of that movie is that we don't NEED high dollar productions for a movie.

[19:50] <Harry> Actually no Red. 3 Cameras Minimum. One to shoot with, one to set up for the next shot and one spare.

[19:50] <CrazyEddy> www.sbs.com.au/movieshow/

[19:50] <Redflame> That is luxurious, Frank.

[19:51] <CrazyEddy> They review independent films regularly.

[19:51] <Harry> One of the biggest costs of making a movie is Film Guild rules... Anything that happens out of the ordinary stops production while the Field Reps "Discuss" it and who's jurisdiction it is.

[19:52] <Redflame> That should be done away with. A season with NO films would do it!

[19:53] <CrazyEddy> Of course, there are too many people in the film industry. People need a track record to get into it.

[19:53] <SteveS> But then the field reps will get mad, because you're taking their jobs.

[19:53] <CrazyEddy> The Film Guild might be a US thing.

[19:54] <CrazyEddy> Because they do make these films on minimal wages.

[19:54] <Harry> Not a Luxury Red. Having a setup with three cameras saves MONEY as you don't have to wait for a camera to come back from the repair shop to keep shooting, You can shoot a scene from 2 angles at the same time instead of having to shoot it twice... TIME is MONEY in that biz.

[19:55] <Redflame> IN holly wood. Not if you are doing an independent cheap production, on a ranch, with my friends acting.

[19:55] <CrazyEddy> www.sbs.com.au/eatcarpet/ - My favorite tv show.

[19:56] <CrazyEddy> You must see it if you ever get the chance.

[19:56] <CrazyEddy> I bet you dollars to donuts the number of low budget films in there is way over 95%.

[19:57] <Harry> Yeah Red, but shooting a scene twice dose not replace shooting a scene from 2 different angles at the same time. That makes it harder to properly edit.

[19:57] <Redflame> Well, if you have the money to spend!

[19:57] <CrazyEddy> This makes sense.

[19:59] <Harry> If you are paying your talent, you need to save as much time as you can.

[20:00] <Harry> Also, Tech people get paid whether you're shooting or not.

[20:00] <CrazyEddy> This is true also, but there are a lot of people willing to work on a film for no wage purely to get into the industry.

[20:00] <Redflame> talented unknown actresses probably work for less than one of those huge cameras cost.

[20:02] <CrazyEddy> There has been a lot of talk lately about how Hollywood is making a large proportion of their films in .au now.

[20:02] <CrazyEddy> Maybe this union stuff has something to do with it.

[20:02] <SteveS> And TV shows -- the ones they aren't shooting in Canada.

[20:02] <Harry> Actually a 35mm MITCHEL isn't all that expensive compared to a Special Effects Motion Camera. About $800 a day for the Mitchel about $15,000 (!) a day fo9r the FXcam.

[20:03] <SteveS> Ouch!

[20:04] <CrazyEddy> I heard one guy talking about how you can do it all in a day or to if you're _very_ organized.

[20:04] <Harry> Yeah Eddy, but how goos is that unpaid talent? Hollywood Unions is what caused Spielberg and LUCAS to leave... Others too. Italy is now a favorite place for Film Processing.

[20:04] <Harry> Australia is good for editing etc...

[20:04] <SteveS> Maybe one day, somebody will fill the slot between the hobbyist digital cameras, and the ones Lucas is using for the Star Wars movies.

[20:04] <SteveS> Leaving an affordable camera for smaller movies.

[20:05] <CrazyEddy> Not with things like RIAA around.

[20:05] <SteveS> True.

[20:06] <CrazyEddy> They get money for blank tapes right now. They'll resist any move to destroy their little toll booth on the mass media highway.

[20:06] <SteveS> I wish I knew how to get rid of them. They're getting waytoo much power, and using it to punish new technology and its users.

[20:06] <Harry> Steve, RCA use to make a Mid-Point Video Cam, but SONY bought out that section of RCA.

[20:07] <Harry> RIAA is the Biol on the ass of the entertainment industry... DISNEY is one of their biggest supporters too!

[20:07] <Harry> BOIL!

[20:08] <SteveS> So at least that level of video cam exists, even if it's not available.

[20:10] <SteveS> And Disney's attitude is infecting Pixar. They recently used the law to kill a free implementation of their render software -- one they even used in their movies, because it had features they didn't.

[20:10] <Harry> SONY and FUJI make some Damned good Video Cameras... The French use them a LOT.

[20:11] <CrazyEddy> Hear hear.

[20:11] <Harry> Somebody should have SHOT Eixner a long time ago.

[20:11] <Harry> EiSner!

[20:12] <SteveS> Either spelling, you're right. :-)

[20:13] <Redflame> change of topic, female sf writer.... eisner?

[20:13] <Redflame> friesner

[20:13] <Redflame> this ring a bell?

[20:14] <Harry> Eisner: Head of DISNEYCORP and STUDIOS Red.

[20:14] <Redflame> I've got a good story about her.

[20:14] <Redflame> Read: CHANGE OF TOPIC

[20:14] <Harry> Ok!

[20:14] <SteveS> The name Friesner sounds familiar, at least.

[20:14] <Redflame> Her name.... anyone come up with it?

[20:15] <Redflame> Yeah. When I was at the pound picking out a dog, there was a news article tacked to the bulletin board that mentioned her

[20:15] <Redflame> She was trying out for a TV show about cats!

[20:15] <Harry> (Ignoring THE PRINCE calling to me!)

[20:16] <Redflame> The article said something about her wearing a boa, and singing a meow song, and thanking her cats for their support.

[20:16] <Redflame> It was very funny. The article was about the show, not the writer, so her mention was short.

[20:16] <SteveS> Weird, but potentially funny.

[20:17] <Redflame> But it DID refer to her as a Science Fiction Writer. I wonder if references like this make S.F. sound weirder, or full of fun loving people!

[20:17] <Harry> Yeah, Well it beats LASSIE.

[20:19] <Harry> Weird I hope. make it Fun Loving and it will get ruined.

[20:19] <SteveS> Only until she does the "Timmy's trapped in the well" dance. :-)

[20:19] <Redflame> Don't know if they show is ever going to be recorded.

[20:19] <Redflame> "Timmy's trapped in the well" dance about cats?

[20:20] <SteveS> I was trying to tie it to Lassie somehow.

[20:20] <Harry> A Cat would bat you with a paw and walk towards the Door if inside, the Well if outside, Then sit on the well Sill and MEOW.

[20:21] <SteveS> g>

[20:22] <Harry> If the bucket was up and on the sill, Push it in.

[20:23] <SteveS> Bonk! :-)

[20:25] <Harry> Yeah, but now Timmy has a rope. A dog would NEVER think of that.

[20:25] <SteveS> The cat's obviously smarter than me, because I didn't think of that. ;-)

[20:27] <Harry> Neither did LASSIE.

[20:27] <SteveS> g>

[20:27] <Harry> ;-)

[20:27] <SteveS> If the solution involved herding, though, she'd be right on it.

[20:29] <SteveS> :-)

[20:29] <Redflame> Hi SeanPratz

[20:29] <SeanPratz> Hey, yer all still here!

[20:29] <Harry> Truly Steve but Timmy being saves by a flock of sheep doesn't cut it somehow.

[20:30] <SeanPratz> Thought I'd gamble, seeing as the list isn't moving..

[20:30] <Harry> WB Sean.

[20:30] * SeanPratz takes a bow

[20:30] <SteveS> Welcome back, Sean!

[20:30] <SeanPratz> Thanks, Harry, Steve..

[20:31] <Redflame> Getting crowded here again?

[20:31] <SeanPratz> That'd be nice.

[20:33] <Redflame> Yes, the Lassie connection is funny.

[20:34] <Redflame> One could make some cute satirical scenes with that!

[20:34] <Harry> We can hope red.

[20:34] <Redflame> Yeah, how can 5 list members sit in a chat room and not talk?

[20:34] <Redflame> We reading?

[20:35] <Redflame> Frank, I bet you subcomed to the lures of the Pournelle novel!

[20:35] <SeanPratz> I'm triviaing.

[20:35] <SteveS> I was looking at the First Words on Mars competition entries: http://www.newmars.com/firstwords

[20:35] <Redflame> Sean, you HAD to go and point out my social gaffs!

[20:35] <SteveS> Welcome back, SheWolf!

[20:36] <SeanPratz> I whut?

[20:36] * SeanPratz looks around helplessly

[20:36] <Redflame> On the list! You thought maybe I don't READ the list? :-)

[20:36] <Harry> no, but I'm convincing a person in a chat room to Read RW... Maybe come in here to learn about SF.

[20:36] <Redflame> Hey, Larry once told me that the thing he worries the most about it making a social gaff!

[20:37] <Redflame> Tell them that it is a satire on "The Wizard of Oz"!

[20:37] <SteveS> He should know we'd forgive him of any social gaffe. Now, in the wilds of IRC, on the other hand... ;-)

[20:37] <SeanPratz> Oh. blush> Hey, I get the feeling that Larry wouldn't mind it if you walked up to him and said "You're ugly as sin and you smell bad, too... but I like your books."

[20:38] <Redflame> He would care if someone said he smelled bad!

[20:38] <SeanPratz> Not if he had a cold...

[20:38] <SteveS> groan>

[20:38] <Harry> BOOKS sell, Scent and looks don't matter at that level.

[20:38] <SteveS> :-)

[20:39] <Redflame> That is when he would care the MOST, because he couldn't verify the truth for himself!

[20:40] <Harry> A Social Gaff is unavoidable as fashions in Social behavior change...

[20:40] <Redflame> "Ugly as sin" he would just take as a matter of taste.

[20:40] <SeanPratz> Oh, now you're being picky, Carol. :)

[20:40] <SteveS> If he had a cold, he wouldn't be able to smell well, so he wouldn't smell good.

[20:40] * SeanPratz nods in Steve's direction

[20:41] <Redflame> eg>

[20:41] <Redflame> And if he doesn't believe in man's sinful nature, then one CAN'T be ugly as it?

[20:42] <SeanPratz> Whoa. Chatting in two rooms is bad for the ol MPD.

[20:42] <Redflame> MPD?

[20:42] <Redflame> mega personal data?

[20:42] <SeanPratz> Mid-Point Displacement.

[20:43] <SeanPratz> Oh, no, wait. Multiple Personality Disorder

[20:43] <SteveS> I'm glad you asked first, Carol. I didn't have to sound stupid this time. ;-)

[20:43] <SeanPratz> Who said that?

[20:44] <SeanPratz> Asking ME what I mean hardly makes anyone sound stupid! :)

[20:44] <SteveS> g>

[20:44] <Redflame> LOL.

[20:45] <Redflame> Sometimes, I wait for my rocket scientist husband to ask first. If he doesn't know something, I can't be too stupid for not knowing it!

[20:45] <Redflame> Hi allie_brat2002

[20:45] <SteveS> Hi, Allie!

[20:45] <allie_brat2002> hey

[20:46] <SeanPratz> All the kids come to me for science and math questions. But when it comes to how to interact with actual *people* they go to their mom.

[20:46] <SeanPratz> Hi Allie.

[20:46] <SteveS> I heard that! :-)

[20:46] <allie_brat2002> hi

[20:46] <SeanPratz> Hey, I'm about as gregarious as a pool of mud.

[20:46] <SeanPratz> In person, that is.

[20:46] <Harry> Hi Allie.

[20:47] <SteveS> Me too.

[20:47] <Redflame> Is she actually better at explaining people questions, or is that just their prejudice?

[20:47] <SteveS> So, you're a brat, but are you the wurst? ;-)

[20:47] <allie_brat2002> who

[20:47] <SeanPratz> It's true. I'm a curmudgeonly shut-in who'd be just as happy living on a deserted island. She's the opposite. We balance each other out.

[20:48] <allie_brat2002> ok

[20:48] <Harry> I'm almost as Isolated.

[20:48] <SeanPratz> ...says the minstrel...

[20:48] <SeanPratz> :)

[20:49] <allie_brat2002> brb

[20:49] <SeanPratz> The day I'm sitting behind the autograph table is the day I alienate every fan in the convention center.

[20:49] <Redflame> Oh?

[20:50] <SeanPratz> Pfft. I've got the personality of a feral cat.

[20:50] <SeanPratz> (In person) I'm Mr. Friendly when you can't see my face, but in person I turn on the Harlan-mode as a means of self-protection.

[20:50] <Redflame> Not totally. After all, as you like to point out, YOU didn't insult Larry Niven! ;-)

[20:50] <SteveS> I like being around people, and talking to people, but I get nervous, and I'm not good at initiating or carrying a conversation.

[20:51] * SeanPratz snickers

[20:51] <allie_brat2002> asl all

[20:51] <SteveS> ASL?

[20:51] <Redflame> age sex location

[20:51] <SeanPratz> American Sign Language?

[20:52] <allie_brat2002> age sex location

[20:52] <Redflame> yes I do, yes I do, at home

[20:52] <SteveS> Ah. Duh! (Smacks forehead)

[20:52] <SeanPratz> I could try playing dumb... that'd work.

[20:52] <SteveS> 29, M, Alabama.

[20:52] <SeanPratz> Oh!

[20:52] <SeanPratz> 34 M, Western Canada.

[20:52] <Redflame> Am sign language is what I thought at first.

[20:52] <Redflame> Okay, almost 42, really, F, Houston

[20:53] * SeanPratz shrugs

[20:53] <Harry> A= Older than most whiskeys S=Occasionally L=in front of my computer

[20:53] <SteveS> g>

[20:53] <Harry> You??

[20:53] <allie_brat2002> me

[20:54] <allie_brat2002> heellllloooooo

[20:54] <SeanPratz> Yes?

[20:54] <SteveS> Yeeeeeeees?

[20:55] <allie_brat2002> 18/f/ga

[20:55] <SteveS> Fairly close to me, then.

[20:55] <allie_brat2002> yyyooouuuu

[20:55] <allie_brat2002> 29

[20:56] <allie_brat2002> mmmee

[20:56] <SteveS> Geographically.

[20:56] <allie_brat2002> 18

[20:56] <allie_brat2002> huuhh

[20:56] <SeanPratz> Hey, you're fairly close to me then.

[20:56] <Redflame> from this side of 40, 18 and 29 are pretty close together!

[20:56] <SeanPratz> In geological time, that is.

[20:56] <SteveS> chuckle>

[20:57] <SeanPratz> "this side of 40"

[20:57] * SeanPratz slaps Redflame

[20:57] <SeanPratz> Sheesh.

[20:57] <allie_brat2002> 40=20=10=5

[20:57] <SteveS> =2.5? :-)

[20:57] <Redflame> hey, you aren't too far away.

[20:58] <SeanPratz> The #KNOWNSPACE Intelligence Test

[20:58] <Harry> 59/M/Arizona.

[20:58] <allie_brat2002> mrs know it all

[20:59] <Harry> You know about the FRANKLIN FREESTATE and John Sevier Brat?

[21:00] <allie_brat2002> i know math

[21:01] <allie_brat2002> well gtg bye yahoo calls

[21:01] <SteveS> Bye, Allie!

[21:01] <Harry> Ok, Math helps sometimes in here... Ability to make tasty Puns also helps.

[21:01] <SeanPratz> Seeya

[21:01] <Redflame> Bye allie

[21:01] <Harry> Adiuos Allie

[21:01] <SeanPratz> Aloha Allie

[21:02] <SeanPratz> I had that album.

[21:02] <SteveS> Hey, I like my bratwurst joke... :-)

[21:03] <Harry> Not bad Steve.

[21:03] <Redflame> I missed the brat joke. I like a good brat now and then. With kraut and mustard. Yumm

[21:03] <SteveS> I really insulted her by suggesting my geezer self was close to her. :-)

[21:04] <SeanPratz> You old fart. Hittin' on poor Georgian lasses.

[21:04] <SeanPratz> Bad Steve.

[21:04] <SteveS> g>

[21:04] <Redflame> I missed the location stuff. Are you close by? People who ASK asl care about your age, like you are only human if you are close to their age.

[21:04] * SeanPratz rolls his eyes.

[21:05] <SteveS> She's from Georgia, and I'm assuming not in the former Soviet Union.

[21:05] <SeanPratz> It's never occurred to me to care. If someone talks intelligent then they're the right age.

[21:05] <SteveS> I wasn't very cool even when I *was* 18, so it didn't matter much. ;-)

[21:05] <Redflame> And you are in Alabama. Considering that we have had people from Canada, Australia, and California, Alabama and Georgia ARE close!

[21:06] <SeanPratz> Hey, in #KNOWNSPACE, being anywhere near Sol is close enough.

[21:06] <Redflame> lol

[21:07] <Redflame> Okay, so we should all come next month as Niven characters, research WHERE they are, and what they are doing when they come.

[21:07] <SeanPratz> Choose the most minor character you can think of. I like it.

[21:08] <SteveS> So, my answer should have been 237/M/wherever Lucas Garner lived? :-)

[21:08] <Redflame> Moon

[21:08] <Redflame> I'd choose Julie from the ARM stories.

[21:08] <Redflame> I suppose she is in her mid 20s. I'd have to research to find where she lives.

[21:09] <SeanPratz> I'd pick Chmee, just so i could be nasty to people from Georgia.

[21:09] <Harry> I'd have a tough choice. /;-)

[21:09] <SteveS> Speaker-to-Teenagers? ;-)

[21:09] <Redflame> You don't have to be a Kzin to be nasty to people from Georgia. You just want to be nasty to EVERY human, right?

[21:09] <Redflame> LOL!

[21:09] * SeanPratz laughs out loud

[21:09] <SeanPratz> Whee!

[21:09] <Redflame> Redd, you just come as yourself, right?

[21:10] <SeanPratz> Naw, here are nice humans. I know at least two...

[21:11] <Harry> Not exactly on subject but this is interesting!

[link dead]

[21:11] <Redflame> Niven and Me?

[21:12] <Redflame> Sean, you are married? Then you have to count your wife as one of the two nice people.

[21:12] <SeanPratz> Umm...

[21:12] * SeanPratz nods

[21:13] <Redflame> Okay, so who is the other one? eg>

[21:13] <SeanPratz> And the other remains nameless. That way I can hedge my bets (EXCEPT when someone asks about two people at once...).

[21:13] <SteveS> Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!

[21:13] <SeanPratz> Hey, look at that weather!

[21:14] <SteveS> Where?

[21:14] <SeanPratz> Up there.

[21:14] <SteveS> Hey, where did you go?

[21:14] <SteveS> :-)

[21:14] * Redflame gets distracted

[21:15] <Redflame> So, who has the plateau eyes?

[21:15] <Harry> Distracted also. Critical game Cardinals and D-Backs.

[21:16] <SeanPratz> Go Cards!

[21:16] <SeanPratz> I'm sitting in a darkened bedroom trying to type quietly. Does that count?

[21:16] <Harry> Bottom of the 8th 4-3 Cards.

[21:17] <SeanPratz> Canada doesn't do baseball. You can only watch so many Expos games and still care.

[21:17] <SeanPratz> Now hockey, otoh...

[21:17] <Redflame> I can only get into a baseball game if I am THERE.

[21:18] <Redflame> I sat next to David Gerrold at a ball game once!

[21:18] <SeanPratz> Beer under the seat, a fist full of peanuts, husks falling into the beer. That's sports!

[21:18] <SteveS> :-)

[21:18] <SeanPratz> Cool! Who won?

[21:19] <SeanPratz> duck>

[21:19] <Redflame> Who knows? It was an astros game, so at least I know one team who was playing. It was at the dome here in Houston.

[21:22] <SeanPratz> Ssh! I'm concentrating!

[21:23] <Redflame> HEAR THAT EVERYONE!!! TALK SOFT!!!

[21:23] <SeanPratz> ow, my head

[21:24] <SteveS> g>

[21:24] <SteveS> It's amazing that a real space elevator might be that close to happening.

[21:25] <Harry> And in my Lifetime! That would be as good as it gets for me.

[21:25] <Redflame> certainly it isn't NASA working on that.

[21:26] <SeanPratz> Oh yeah! I can hardly wait. Imagine, farting on a space elevator.

[21:26] <SteveS> It's now a material engineering problem -- just figure out how to turn the nanotubes into a long cable or ribbon.

[21:26] <SeanPratz> At the top, you're the only one that suffers.

[21:27] <Harry> Yeah... Red Maybe we'll actually be able to get out and into space with it.

[21:27] <Redflame> :-)

[21:28] <Harry> Red? would you consider moving about 1000 K away from Houston? Like UP for example?

[21:29] <Redflame> Not while I have children.

[21:29] <Redflame> Small children, I mean.

[21:29] <Redflame> When they are grown and out of the house, maybe.

[21:29] <SeanPratz> I'd go in a heartbeat (with the kids). I dunno if Corinne's got the wanderlust, though.

[21:29] <Harry> Red, I'd think you'd jump at the chance to raise your kids in Space.

[21:30] <Redflame> Too dangerous.

[21:30] <Redflame> I want 100 % survival rate.

[21:30] <SeanPratz> Like here on Earth?

[21:30] <SeanPratz> :)

[21:30] <SteveS> Do you drive?

[21:30] <Redflame> We don't know if space would cut down on their later fertility.

[21:31] <SeanPratz> Lead pants.

[21:31] <SteveS> True. Maybe it would be easy to carry good enough water shielding up there, given a space elevator.

[21:31] <Redflame> afaik, no one has ever certified lead in clothing, for males or females.

[21:32] <SeanPratz> So don't chew on your pants, silly!

[21:32] <Harry> No such thing as a 100% survival rate 4Red

[21:32] <SeanPratz> Yeah, but breeding... She's got a point.

[21:33] <Redflame> Yes, Redd, we all die. There is 100% death rate.

[21:33] <Harry> NANOTUBE for construction materials... Fill them with H2O.

[21:34] <SteveS> That may add too much mass to the cable, since it would be water all the way up.

[21:35] <Harry> Not the Cable Steve, the Station at the top... Anyway, I suspect you could use selected tubes to move water up by capillary action.

[21:35] <SteveS> Surrounding the elevator car with water could work.

[21:36] <SteveS> That would be a god way to get water up there.

[21:38] <SeanPratz> Hmm.

[21:38] <SteveS> Well!

[21:38] <Redflame> Oh well.

[21:38] <SeanPratz> Damned Georgians..

[21:38] <SteveS> :-)

[21:39] <Redflame> amazing how many people just stumble in here. We aren't next to some drunken party, are we?

[21:39] <SteveS> Those David Niven fans!

[21:39] <SeanPratz> Hee!

[21:40] <Redflame> Who is Felix Addams?

[21:40] <SteveS> Gomez's brother? ;-)

[21:41] <Harry> No, but some people see KNOWNSPACE as Spaced Out.

[21:41] <SteveS> Apparently.

[21:41] <SeanPratz> Hey, some folks just click at random, I guess.

[21:42] <Harry> Yeah, they click at Random looking for CyberSex... They should maybe stop to get aquatinted....

[21:43] <Redflame> I have to know someone really well before _I_ will put out in cyber space!!!

[21:43] <Harry> Hmmm, maybe that's a step in an evolution towards PROTECTORS. Keep the kids interested in S.E.X. and give THE ADULTS time to learn important things.

[21:43] <Redflame> Hmm.....

[21:45] <SteveS> g>

[21:46] <Redflame> Okay, so when they aren't fertile anymore, they become less interested in sex, and really start learning something!

[21:48] <Harry> Yeah... We're already half way ther4 Red. The kids are preoccupied with sex... Courtesy of the MEDIA.

[21:50] <SteveS> Weren't they preoccupied anyway?

[21:50] <SeanPratz> We were talking about this last night with my 18-year-old. He can even see the difference between what he watched and what his 11-year-old brother watches.

[21:51] <Redflame> I hardly watched TV at all. But when I was growing up, it seemed that it was the adults who were obsessed with sex. But then, I was sexually abused.

[21:51] <SeanPratz> I mean, can you imagine nurse Chapel kissing Uhura like they do on Buffy? Times are changin'.

[21:52] <Redflame> Huh. Well, women have always been closer than men. I've never actually watched an episode of Buffy. However, ST is a MILITARY SHOW. Buffy is not. That alone makes a big difference.

[21:52] <Harry> The CARDS won it. 5-3

[21:53] <SteveS> I can't imagine seeing the kind of sex I saw in last season's Buffy, or in Farscape, on basic cable back when I was a kid.

[21:53] <SeanPratz> Well, you don't see the principal on Buffy kissing the girls, but on ST you do see the captain doing it. Heh.

[21:54] <Redflame> There wasn't cable back when I was a kid. People were lucky to have TVs

[21:54] <SteveS> The principal has always been gross on Buffy, except maybe the new one.

[21:54] <SeanPratz> It's amazing. Even more amazing are the warnings they put up for sex, completely ignoring whether or not there is violence in the show. That's sad.

[21:54] <SteveS> I didn't get cable of any sort until I was a sophomore in high school.

[21:54] <SeanPratz> My kids watch it. Corinne watches it. I pick it up every so often 'cause it's on.

[21:55] <Redflame> I just got cable for the first time about a year ago.

[21:55] <Redflame> I take TV privileges from my son for any reason.

[21:55] <Redflame> So far, mostly it has only been for office referrals, but I think I'll start doing it for getting an F on a test.

[21:56] * SeanPratz applauds

[21:56] <SteveS> In a big city like Houston, or near Dallas where I grew up, you get enough broadcast stations that you don't really need cable.

[21:56] <SteveS> We only got cable when we moved to Alabama, and there were only a handful of broadcast stations.

[21:56] <Harry> Good Idea Red.

[21:56] <SeanPratz> Here on Vancouver Isle if you don't have cable or satellite you don't have TV. Personally,I think that'd be great.

[21:56] <SteveS> I got grounded from TV for a week once, for bad grades.

[21:57] <Redflame> Yes, my son was getting office referrals in Kindergarten. sigh>

[21:58] <Redflame> Last night, I took his Pokemon cards away from him for a WEEK because he told me he wasn't going to pick them up, then started trying to tell me WHICH ONE day I was going to be able to take them from him. He bargained his way up from one day to a week that way.

[21:58] <SeanPratz> I liked it when PBS was the only game in town.

[21:58] <Harry> Sounds like he's Bored Red Can't you find something that he likes and challenges him?

[21:58] <Redflame> Yes, they did start in on JUST PBS. I like it. and I won't take any flack about Barney!

[21:58] <SteveS> What can you do in kindergarten to get office referrals?

[21:58] <SeanPratz> Oooo.. Makes me steam to just think of it.

[21:59] <Redflame> Seems like the more homework we give him, the better he acts, and we have to give him more attention that way, because we have to stay on him with it.

[21:59] <SeanPratz> Can you say B*rney here without getting kicked?

[21:59] <SteveS> g>

[21:59] <Redflame> He would throw tantrums.

[22:00] <SeanPratz> brb

[22:00] <Redflame> It disrupted the teacher from being able to teach the kids! For the first 6 weeks, he spent the first half hour of class hiding out in a boat the teacher had in her room. He has finally gotten to the point where he enters his classroom, goes to his desk and gets right to work!

[22:02] <SteveS> Sounds like a big improvement.

[22:03] <Redflame> Oh, yes. He is getting civilized. Slowly.

[22:03] <Redflame> We got a dog for him to have something to do besides watch TV. I give him a longer break before Homework if he goes outside with the dog.

[22:03] <SeanPratz> Maybe he could teach my girl a thing or two.

[22:04] <SteveS> Dogs are really good for kids.

[22:04] <SeanPratz> A dog could teach her a thing or two some days.

[22:05] <Redflame> Yeah, my son or my dog?

[22:05] <SeanPratz> Yes.

[22:06] <Redflame> How old is she?

[22:07] <SeanPratz> nine going on nineteen

[22:07] <SteveS> :-)

[22:07] <Redflame> Keegan has a crush on a girl he met in K. She moved away, but Keegan still likes her. Her mom never returns my call. Keegan might be able to... enjoy the company of an older woman. Does she like Pokemon?

[22:08] <SeanPratz> Only if Pokemon is wearing stylish shoes at the time and promises to do *exactly as she tells him.

[22:09] <Redflame> He MIGHT be able to get into being ordered around by an older woman! I've not PERSONALLY experience his joy in that regard!

[22:09] <SteveS> chuckle>

[22:09] <SeanPratz> snicker>

[22:11] <Redflame> Does she like... dinosaurs and Harry Potter? Maybe Shining Time Station?

[22:11] <SeanPratz> Do you have any girls?

[22:11] <Redflame> My girl is 4.

[22:12] <SeanPratz> Ah. You'll see. No, she likes leather.

[22:12] <Redflame> She just started Pre-K, in a private school. She seems to really like it.

[22:12] <SeanPratz> :>

[22:12] <Redflame> On M&F, there is a class size of 6! Other days, 16, with at least two teachers.

[22:13] <Redflame> On Tuesday, we are going to a hands on zoo in Galveston. Mommies have to go too. I have to miss Yoga to go!

[22:13] <SeanPratz> She's Ms. Fashion Queen. If we let her she'd read Cosmo and starve herself to death to become the right shape.

[22:13] <Redflame> At NINE?

[22:13] * SeanPratz nods sadly.

[22:13] <SeanPratz> Throw away your TV.

[22:14] <Redflame> Oh my GOHD!

[22:14] <SeanPratz> worms

[22:14] <SteveS> Scary!

[22:14] <SeanPratz> Oop. Wrong channel.

[22:14] <SteveS> What was the trivia question? :-)

[22:14] <Redflame> Well, Clara is, seems, naturally very slender, as does Keegan. A mystery I dont' understand considering how much they both love sweets.

[22:14] <SeanPratz> It's terrible. Yet our 16-year old daughter is just the opposite. A regular Ellie Arroway.

[22:14] <Redflame> LOL

[22:15] <Redflame> Who is Ellie Arroway?

[22:15] <SeanPratz> If you have helminthiasis your body is infested with what?

[22:15] <SteveS> The heroine of Contact.

[22:15] <SeanPratz> Umm.. Protag. from "Contact" by Sagan.

[22:16] <Redflame> Just the opposite, meaning that she is deep and searching for all the answers of the universe, while her little sister is only worried about looks and being accepted?

[22:16] <SeanPratz> Relatively well-adjusted and doesn't care what anybody thinks if her hair's not "just so."

[22:16] <SteveS> It's also one of my little sister's favorite movie, which is a good sign. :-)

[22:16] <SeanPratz> Yeah, what you said.

[22:17] <Redflame> Offhand, I'd say that being overly concerned with looks is a sign of Low self esteem, but the Goddess Loves it when we adorn ourselves with her bounty!

[22:17] <Harry> ?

[22:17] <Redflame> We are talking about the differences between Sean's girls.

[22:18] <SeanPratz> One's I don't complain about, one I do. And in public yet. Maybe it's time to change the topic.

[22:18] <Redflame> Sean, I have no idea what your body is infested with if you have mumble>

[22:18] <SeanPratz> Worms! I just learned that!

[22:18] <SeanPratz> learned.

[22:19] <Redflame> Oh, I was here talking during that question.

[22:19] <SeanPratz> Question? What question? ;)

[22:19] <SteveS> I asked because he typed his answer into this window.

[22:19] <Redflame> Well, we live too far away to set your little girl up with my little boy anyway.

[22:20] <SeanPratz> Maybe some day when they're both perfectly well-adjusted they'll meet at a con. Hmmm... Maybe not. If they're at a con that would imply the opposite, right? :)

[22:20] <Redflame> The question to which WORMS is the answer.

[22:20] <Redflame> I'd like my son to meet someone at a con!

[22:20] <Redflame> I met my true love at a con!

[22:20] <SeanPratz> Answer?

[22:20] <SeanPratz> I'm lost.

[22:20] <Redflame> WORMS!

[22:21] <SteveS> I'd like ME meet somebody at a con! ;-)

[22:21] * SeanPratz is trying to keep a straight face.

[22:21] <SeanPratz> Worms?

[22:21] <Redflame> I might have met my sweet hubbie at a con if we hadn't met at church!

[22:21] * Redflame throws a virtual paper ball at Sean

[22:22] <SeanPratz> Ack!

[22:22] <SteveS> Worms? Martin Luther's diet.

[22:22] <SeanPratz> He was infested?

[22:22] <SeanPratz> I never read that.

[22:22] <SeanPratz> !vowel

[22:22] <SeanPratz> hint

[22:22] <SeanPratz> Argh!

[22:23] <SteveS> No, that was the name of the paper he nailed to the church door, the Diet of Worms.

[22:23] <SeanPratz> Sorry.

[22:23] <Redflame> LOL

[22:23] <SeanPratz> The church had helminthiasis?

[22:24] <Redflame> I guess they did!

[22:24] <SeanPratz> I'm SO confused! Time to go back to Georgia.

[22:24] <SteveS> Maybe, but I think Worms was the name of the city.

[22:24] <SeanPratz> In Georgia?

[22:24] <SteveS> Since Georgia didn't exist yet, probably not. ;-)

[22:25] <SeanPratz> When you spend your whole day giving advice to stupid people...

[22:25] <SeanPratz> ...it's easy to act this way.

[22:25] <SteveS> Just an old sweet song, keeps Georgia on my mind!

[22:26] <Redflame> Hey, have any of you seem "Sweet home Alabama"?

[22:26] <SteveS> Not yet.

[22:26] <SeanPratz> Nope. Any good?

[22:26] <SeanPratz> I have the album.

[22:27] <SeanPratz> What's it about?

[22:27] <SeanPratz> (Besides "two hours," I mean...)

[22:27] <Redflame> IT is SUPPOSED to be a chick flick, romantic comedy.

[22:28] <SteveS> A girl who was living in New York is about to get married, then returns to her home town in Alabama.

[22:28] <SteveS> That's what I gathered from the previews.

[22:28] <Redflame> They did not convince me that the main character picked the right guy, but maybe that is because I was miserable in high school, and have no good memories of my growing up years.

[22:28] <SeanPratz> Who's in it?

[22:29] <Redflame> Hey, I'm the one who when approached by Larry Niven, said "What did you write?"

[22:29] <SeanPratz> OMG!

[22:29] * SeanPratz laughs uproariously!

[22:30] <SeanPratz> You didn't!

[22:30] <Redflame> LOL. You've never heard me tell that story?

[22:30] <SteveS> I saw Reese Witherspoon and Candace Bergen in the previews.

[22:30] <Redflame> Yes I did!

[22:30] <SteveS> D'oh!

[22:30] <Redflame> Candace was good.

[22:30] <Redflame> I like her.

[22:30] <SeanPratz> Oh geeze! I'd die!

[22:30] <Redflame> He was even the GoH at the Con I was at!

[22:30] <SteveS> I go to cons all the time where I have no clue what the guest of honor wrote.

[22:30] <Redflame> It was my con. I went because it was my con, not because of who was GoH!

[22:31] <SteveS> I'm about to go to another one in 2 weeks.

[22:31] <Redflame> His standard answer, which he used that night was "What have you read?"

[22:31] <Redflame> Which one?

[22:31] <SteveS> At least I know who the artist GoH is, Darrel K. Sweet, who's done book covers forever.

[22:31] <SeanPratz> Oh man. Still, I would have said the same thing to some folks. If it wasn't for Niven I'd have asked Pournelle why a columnist from Byte was GoH.

[22:32] <Redflame> LOL!

[22:32] <SeanPratz> Good answer!

[22:32] <Redflame> What con are you going to?

[22:32] <SteveS> In fact, Sweet did one of the definitive Protector illustrations.

[22:32] <Redflame> Steve, what con are you going to?

[22:32] <SteveS> Con-Stellation 21, here in Huntsville.

[22:32] <Redflame> Ah.

[22:33] <Redflame> Website?

[22:33] <SteveS> http://www.con-stellation.org/

[22:35] <Redflame> Larry is going here Oct 25-27 in Michigan http://www.conclavesf.org

[22:35] <SteveS> They have a lot of military SF writers, and I don't really read that subgenre other than Man-Kzin Wars.

[22:36] <Redflame> That is right. The year that Pournelle was at OKon with Niven, there were military costumes ALL over the place.

[22:36] <SeanPratz> I never even picked up the MKW books. Can't get into 'em.

[22:37] <Redflame> I can only enjoy them if I pretend Larry wrote them

[22:37] <SeanPratz> That's sorta like closing your eyes and pretending you're with someone else. Doesn't work for me.

[22:37] <Redflame> Steve, you weren't the one on the list saying that it was your first con.

[22:37] <SeanPratz> Or, er... didn't.

[22:37] * SeanPratz removes foot from mouth.

[22:37] <SteveS> Nope, I'm the one who roped in the guy who was going to his first con. ;-)

[22:38] <Redflame> You never close your eyes and pretend your' with someone who isn't there?

[22:38] <SteveS> I haven't gone to any out of town cons, though.

[22:39] <SeanPratz> Now, do you *really expect me to answer that question on a public forum?

[22:39] <Redflame> This isn't really public. Although we ARE planning on posting this on KS!

[22:39] <SteveS> :-O

[22:39] <SeanPratz> Hehehe. Oh, in that case, yes. All the time. I always liked Lucas Garner.

[22:40] <Redflame> Still, that is what I do with the MKW series. If the authors of those aren't happy with that, well, they can write in their own universes.

[22:40] <SeanPratz> Good point.

[22:40] <SeanPratz> Oop! Work just came in. brb.

[22:41] <SteveS> Work late on Saturday night? Ouch!

[22:41] <Harry> You should hear C.J. Cheeryh talk about the First Convention she attended... never attended a CON till she was invited as GoH and thought it was a Practical Joke by her graduating class!

[22:42] <SteveS> Wow!

[22:42] <Redflame> I has been lovely fun, but I need to get off the computer now. Actually, my bottom is starting to hurt from sitting here so long. That is a funny story about Carolyn.

[22:42] <Redflame> It is a funny story that Leslie tells about meeting Carolyn at Filks, too!

[22:43] <SteveS> Alrighty.

[22:43] <SteveS> Night, Carol!

[22:45] <Harry> The meeting between me and CJ is pretty funny too, but not as funny as when I first met Leslie Fish.

[22:46] <Harry> Adios Red. Have a good one.

[22:46] <Redflame> 'Night!

[22:55] <Harry> I must also drop off.

[22:55] <Harry> Adios all.

[22:55] <SteveS> OK. Goodnight, Frank!

[22:58] <SeanPratz> Quieter all of a sudden...

[22:58] <SteveS> Yup.

[22:59] <SeanPratz> But who am I going to tease if Carol's not here?

[22:59] <SteveS> Good question. :-)

[22:59] * SeanPratz looks Steve over...

[22:59] <SeanPratz> Do you embarrass easily?

[23:00] <SteveS> Not really.

[23:00] <SeanPratz> Damn. Guess I'm outta luck.

[23:00] <SteveS> :-)

[23:03] <SeanPratz> Well.. umm... bye then.

[23:03] <SeanPratz> :)

[23:03] <SteveS> OK. Goodnight!

[23:04] <SteveS> I'm outta here too. Goodnight, log! ;-)

[00:06] *** Disconnected

Session Close: Sun Oct 06 00:06:17 2002