Ringworld 30th Anniversary Chat Log

Session Start: Sat Oct 07 17:53:04 2000

Larry was a little late in joining the chat - to skip down to his entrance click here.

*** Now talking in #KNOWNSPACE

*** Topic is 'Ringworld 30th Anniversary Chat - tonight at 9.00 GMT'

*** Set by K9 on Sat Oct 07 19:08:03

-K9- Welcome fellow larryniven-l members to the Known Space IRC Channel. Tonight it is proud to host a chat dedicated to the 30th Anniversary of the publication of Ringworld by Larry Niven.

-K9- This will be an unmoderated chat and we request that chatters stay on topic as defined by our GOH (Guest of Honor), Larry Niven. Swearing and verbal abuse WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

<Redflame> hello!

<Vash> oh, I have visitors

<Vash> been otherwise occupied in another window

<Redflame> :-)

<vxpmrz3> Oh fudge, and I had planned to swear like a sailor.

<HarryRedd> Hi Vash

<Vash> hi harry

<HarryRedd> How's it going Vash?

<Vash> ok

<Vash> how about you

<HarryRedd> That's good... All set up for this afternoon?

<Vash> evening for me, but yes

<Vash> I wonder how many people will come?

<HarryRedd> I think more than a few... It IS the 30th anniversary after all. /:-)

<HarryRedd> You're in GB I take it?

<Vash> many people on the list only have access to it at work, and this is the weekend

<Vash> yes

<HarryRedd> Hi DJANGO. /:-)

<django> afternoon all & happy thanksgiving

<django> I think I may be having connection problems - brb

<HarryRedd> The only thing I give thanks for today is that I got my check today and that I'm not getting the amount of "GOVERNMENT" I'm paying for! /:-)

* django waggles some wires

<HarryRedd> You going to be here for a while Vash?

<Vash> yes

<django> I have been a bad boy - I started re-reading Ringworld for today, but then I finally got footfall & read that instead :-(

<django> is anyone there?

<Vash> yep

<Vash> but chat won't start for just under an hour and a half

*** Vash is now known as Nesssus

<HarryRedd> Hey Nessus! I just finished filling out my LOSCON Info for running a panel there

<Nesssus> a convention?

<HarryRedd> yes. LOSangels (Reagonal) science fiction CONvention. A yearly event run by the LASFAS... THIS world's oldest (exhisting) Science Fiction Club. /:-)

<HarryRedd> Hi Nessus Do you know the name Leslie Fish?

<Nesssus> Banned from Argo?

<HarryRedd> YES! Would you like to say hello to her?

<Nesssus> is she with you?

<HarryRedd> Yes Here she is!

<Nesssus> hi Leslie

<HarryRedd> Hello, out there. (And DON'T mention "Banned From Argo" to me :-)\

<Nesssus> how are you doing?

<HarryRedd> -- ask eagerly when the book will see print. I told them in my cover letter that the book was based on a notorious filk song, and that I could guarantee several thousand sales on the title alone, but I don't think they believed me.

<Nesssus> :-)

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, edison!

<edison> Hiya.

<edison> I'm early, but I won't be able to stay for the real chat.

<Nesssus> it starts in about 45 mins

<edison> Last-minute schedule conflict. Really too bad, I was looking forward to this.

<edison> I even re-read RW in preparation.

<HarryRedd> Hi, Edison. This is Leslie Fish <;)))><, using Harry Redd's computer.

<Nesssus> I started reading it tonight, but only got as far as chapter two

<edison> ...and his motley crew!

<edison> Hi Leslie.

<edison> Here's what I would want to ask Larry if I were here:

<edison> Your readers have noticed a shift in your writing style; in the focus of the stories, the characters, the themes and plots.

<HarryRedd> Harry Here... Hi Edison.

<edison> Have *you* noticed that change? And what do you think of it?

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Leviathan!

<Redflame> Hey! Everyone wants to come early!

<edison> Could somebody find a way to ask that for me? I expect there'll be a transcript posted to the list...

<Nesssus> if there's time edison I'll ask the question for you

<edison> thanks

<HarryRedd> Edison, I w3as away from most SF for about 10 years...BOY did I notice the change when I got Larry's new stuff!

<edison> Yeah, it's not exactly subtle. There's a new miracle on almost every page of RW, but DR is a whole different animal.

<edison> I'm not passing judgement of "better" or "worse," but you can't deny "different."

<Leviathan> I think there's an awful lot more character depth in DR and RWT myself.

<Redflame> Yes, and character depth is important.

<edison> Yes, the new work is much more character-driven, less tech- and action- and puzzle-driven.

<Leviathan> I agree. I think they're much more "mature" than "Ringworld" is.

<Redflame> He still has lots of puzzles in, mostly in the form of trying to figure out what the characters are thinking by looking at their actions.

<edison> Bey and Louis are tourists, and as readers we're along for the ride. Jemmy isn't.

<Leviathan> But that maturity seems gained at the cost of a lot of good old-fashioned "Gosh-Wow! That's NEAT!" and I miss that.

<Redflame> Jemmy is a fugitive!

<HarryRedd> Hi, Redflame: this is Leslie again. How're you doing?

<edison> I agree that Larry leaves his characters' motivations and actions as a puzzle for the reader sometimes. I find it occasionally irritating.

<edison> Especially some of the high-action scenes in RWT, where Louis says, "Did you notice..." and then blacks out.

<Redflame> Leslie? Hi! I'm great! You?

<edison> Also, since Larry's been on the list, I've noticed that he's impatient with readers who don't "get it," who need to have something explained to them.

<HarryRedd> HR-- Larry doesn't tell you ALL about motivation early... He lets things develop and reveal themselves as the Characte4r grows.

<Leviathan> I have a sense that Larry on the list tries very hard to keep his answers short. That can come off as impatience, but it may be more to do with discipline and time-management.

<HarryRedd> (Leslie) Hi, Redflame. Did you catch my twenty-lines-earlier post about the novelisation of "Banned From Argo"? That's what I've been up to!

<Leviathan> . o O (That's what I get for joining late!)

<Redflame> Leslie, I got to hear a couple of your songs recently, in a storytelling concert by Fran Stallings, on the subject of "Ancient Roots of Science Fiction and Fantasy" She identified lots of stories whose beginnings are lost in time, that have the same themes as modern SF&F, way way back beyond Frankenstein. She finished with "Pile High" And the one about poisoning the thugs with the feast food.

<Redflame> Leslie, no, missed that. Nesssus and I will have to trade caches of the chat if we want to post all this to the list. Someone re post that? That "Banned" book sounds very interesting. The first time I heard that song, you sang it for me at Larry Niven's request!

<Redflame> Larry's style of writing: I don't' like having to guess thoughts from actions. I personally have been accused of rather vile thoughts based on misinterpretations of actions, and I'd like to think I don't do that to other people, even characters.

<HarryRedd> (Leslie) Fran Stallings?! I haven't seen/talked to her in a coon's age. Yes, that 'Pile High' song (actual title: "The Digwell Carol") and the poisoned-feast song (actual title: "Rhododendron Honey") came off my album, FIRESTORM -- soon to be reissued -- which was a collection of just-pre-and-post-holocaust songs.

<Redflame> posting transcripts: Do we want all this pre-chat pre-Larry chat posted with the rest of the transcript?

<Nesssus> no - I think we should start at the moment he joins

<Redflame> Ok.

<edison> I'm not sure I agree.

<Leviathan> On the other hand, RedFlame, unless you're a telepath, you _don't_ know what the people around you are thinking. It's inherently unrealistic to give you an inside view of a character's head. Outside of the "POV" character, it's often thought of as good to write descriptions of characters' actions that delineate their thoughts, rather than just say 'Louis thought, "That Teela's hot!"'

<edison> There's something about the pre-chat chatter that adds flavor to a transcript.

<HarryRedd> (Leslie) As for how ancient their roots were, well, I've done my share of reading ancient history, but I wasn't thinking of that when I wrote the songs. They were mostly based on strat-and-tac ideas, and basic strat-and-tac hasn't changed that much since our ancestors battled with flint-tipped spears.

<Redflame> Leslie, Fran Stallings is from, or at least lives, in my hometown. She was the first person that my mother and I had in common as a friend!

<Nesssus> what is strat and tac?

<Redflame> Leslie, I can't remember how she wove those songs into her narrative, but it was a pleasant surprise. I was hopping that she was going to sell a video tape of the performance, but she didn't'. <sigh>

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, krenon!

<Nesssus> strategy and tactics?

<edison> About explaining a character's thoughts: imagine reading RW without "hearing" Louis' thoughts about starseed lures and shenanigans on the Fertility Board. It would be chaos!

<edison> But the characters talk it over among themselves, which is another literary device to clue players in to something.

<edison> In a story you sometimes have to invent a character just so the hero has somebody to explain his plan to.

<Redflame> An omniscient narrator should have some idea of what characters are thinking when the actions of that character are being described. And at least, the main character should have feelings described.

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, bjcooper!

<bjcooper> Hi Nessus! Hey, this was easier than I thought!

<krenon> Hi Brenda

<Nesssus> r u on MIRC?

<bjcooper> That java thing that Carol mentioned in her note on the list. I don't chat much!

<Leviathan> Edison, I used to be in love with characters created to explain things to. Their names were Jo Grant, and Sarah Jane Smith, and Ace.

<Nesssus> Ace Rimmer ? <g>

<HarryRedd> Strategy and Tactics

<krenon> You mean that all he ever did was explain things to them?

<edison> Sorry, I don't recognize any of those characters. (Exposed as a dillitante at last!)

<HarryRedd> Strategy and Tactics

<Leviathan> I still get a little excited hearing a woman with an English accent say "What IS it, Doctor?!?!?"

<krenon> No He means Dr Who's women

<edison> Oh, right. And Perry, the fake American.

<HarryRedd> Am I still here?

<krenon> Jon, who is Lalla Ward married to?

<Nesssus> not any more Harry

<Nesssus> oh yes, you're back!

<krenon> He'll return

<edison> Harry, are you receiving?

<Leviathan> No longer Tom Baker. She's married to (I think) A lawyer, and she currently writes Childern's boks.

<HarryRedd> Receiving but not seeing my posts

<Nesssus> [HarryRedd PING reply]: 0 seconds

<HarryRedd> Now I am...

<Nesssus> you aren't lagged

<HarryRedd> Thank you nessus.

<HarryRedd> I lost the previous stuff when I reset mIRC (S*XIX*G*H)

<HarryRedd> Tom Baker seems to have gone through several wives.

<Nesssus> Tom Baker lives in Harrietsham just outside Maidstone, a woman I used to work with used to see him all the time in her nearest Tescos :-)

<Leviathan> Makes him sound like a James Bond villain: "He consume women in large quantities."

<Leviathan> Wonderfully talented man. I was watching "Talons of Weng-Chiang" just last night on video.

<HarryRedd> no Leviathan, Just insecure and hard to live with apparently

<Leviathan> Oh, he's an actor!

* Leviathan revels in his own sarcasm...

<krenon> I'd heard she was married to some well known person who writes popular science stuff.

<krenon> I'd heard she was married to some well known guy who writes popular science stuff.

<HarryRedd> I saw Albert Finny and Roddy McDowle in THE DRESSER last night. It's the first time I've actually seen Roddy ACT!

<HarryRedd> Who is the lady in Question?

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, tonid!

<Leviathan> My memory is fuzzy whee Ms. Ward is concerned. You're likely quite correct.

<krenon> That's better

<HarryRedd> WB Krenon

<Nesssus> problems?

<django> hi all

<krenon> Yes.

<Redflame> Getting crowded here!

<tonid> a new subscriber says hi ;)

<Nesssus> wb django

<django> good grief - a crowd!

<HarryRedd> Hi Django. Not crowded Red just busy. /:-)

<krenon> x

<Leviathan> . o O (WB? Warner Bros?)

<Nesssus> 10 isn't a crowd

<HarryRedd> Welcome Back Nessus. /:-)

<krenon> She meant welcome back

<Leviathan> Nesssus it is in my bathroom.

<Nesssus> chat talk is full of acronyms

<krenon> Re Lalla Ward: I thought she was married to some guy who wrote popular science books

<Leviathan> IKWYM

<bjcooper> Whether or not 10 is a crowd depends on for what!

<django> ROFL

<Nesssus> no that's a WC Levi

<Redflame> IKWYM?

<tonid> <everybody> o hello tonid nice to see a new subscriber ;>>>>

<krenon> I know what you mean

<HarryRedd> Hi TONID

<tonid> long time since I've been talking to myself ;>

<edison> well, I'll make the crowd smaller, I have to go. Sorry I can

<Nesssus> bbl just resetting the connection

<edison> not stay for Niven

<Leviathan> Why, Hello, Toni D. Nice to meet you.

<Redflame> Tonid, YOU are a new subscriber?

<tonid> no no I'm not Toni and my last name is not D ;)

<Leviathan> Fare thee well, Edison.

<edison> Oh, actually, I think I'll keep my client online and read the transcript later.

<HarryRedd> Adios Edison. Have a good one.

<edison> How do I change my handle to "edison - AFK"?

<tonid> I'm tonid - a complete tonid ;)

<Leviathan> Well, I tried.

<tonid> hehe thx Lev ;> My real name is Tomasz ;)

Good job Leviathon.\

<edisonAFK> Have a good chat, all. Bye.

<Leviathan> I like it! Where from, if I may ask?

<django> ttfn edison

<krenon> test

<tonid> Leviathan: the domain says it all ;)

<tonid> Leviathan: but to make it easier... Poland :)

<tonid> Redflame: why surprised that I am a new subscriber? ;)

<krenon> test

<Leviathan> You pass, krenon!

<krenon> I keep dropping off with no clear message

<Redflame> tonid, not surprise, but I can't always tell who people are when their handles are not the email addresses are not their names. It is hard to remember three of more names for each person.

<tonid> with a D minus, but pass ;>

<HarryRedd> tonid, do you know the song THE EAGLE HAS LANDED?

<krenon> Hope Eyrie

<tonid> Redflame: my email address is tonid@tonid.com.pl ;)))

<HarryRedd> Thank you krenon

<tonid> HarryRedd: don't think so ;)

<Leviathan> changing boxes? Or chat clients?

<Redflame> What country are you in, with that pl?

<tonid> Redflame: as I said to Lev already, Poland :)

<HarryRedd> It was adopted by SOLIDARITY many years back. Leslie Fish who wrote it was chatting here a few minutes ago.

<krenon> I don't blame them

<bjcooper> Hey - she's GOOD -- Leslie was at Worldcon, right?

<tonid> HarryRedd: hehe :) I was never involved in politics much, but I'm going to vote tomorrow for the president ;)

<Leviathan> Nice change of pace from a few years back, isn't it?

<HarryRedd> Good for you tonid. If you don't vote, you are telling the powers that be that you are totally satisfied with the way things are running. I am NEVER satisfied with the way ANY government runs things. /:-)

<tonid> but - to get onto the correct topic - has anyone seen a comprehensive guide to aliens of the Known Space on the Net? :) I'm working on something like that and I hope I'm not re-doing something already done ;)

<tonid> HarryRedd: hehe ;))

<django> was someone talking about Dr Who a few minutes ago?

<krenon> Yes

<Leviathan> That's me, django!

<Nesssus> well Tom Baker

<krenon> Also Lalla Ward

<django> gotcha - just saw Lalla Ward mentioned and it took a minute for it to click

<Leviathan> And other women who say "What IS it, Doctor???"

<django> and scream - don't forget they have to scream

<Leviathan> And then there's that whole ankle thang...

<krenon> Ankle?

<Nesssus> Django - that makes them sound like they're acting in a horror film, not a Dr Who episode

<django> don't you just love pathos

* tonid is feeling a bit left out but guesses it's normal first time on a new channel ;>

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, CoolNess!

<Nesssus> Women always fall down and twist they're ankles in chase scenes in films

<Leviathan> The Doctor's young female assistants tended to fall down and twist their ankles while running away from monsters.

<Leviathan> Nesssus wins!

<Nesssus> I didn't know it was a race

*** CoolNess is now known as TheARM

<mikeash> even better

<Leviathan> We'd better watch our step now!

<Nesssus> let me introduce my other half (coolness aka theARM) who's here to make sure everyone behaves

<django> I just hope nothing gets suppressed

<krenon> Hi coughalot

<Nesssus> lol

<Redflame> django, you are afraid of suppression?

<Leviathan> I've been taking my drugs!

<mikeash> help! help! I'm being suppressed!

<bjcooper> I don't think this group is very suppressable!

<TheARM> Da boyz from da hood will sort out all of dose boyz who don't do right, know what I mean

<TheARM> harry

<django> where's 'arry?

<Leviathan> Is he down in the engine room, sacrificing himself again?

<HarryRedd> Right here. I was just answering E-Mail

<HarryRedd> Actually, I was out on the periphery connecting Attitude Jets when that unpleasantness happened.

<bjcooper> That sounds better!

<Leviathan> Been awhile since I read that.

<HarryRedd> -K-

<django> Redflame: never fear suppression - not had any dangerous ideas lately

<HarryRedd> It's still a good read.

<HarryRedd> Truly Django

<bjcooper> Oh, and tonid, it's usual -- all the Dr. Who stuff went right over my head!

<Leviathan> Indeed. I'm in the middle of a James Bond kick right now, though, and hope to maintain it till I finish a fanfic.

<tonid> would you people mind if I introduced myself in a short burst ? ;)))

<bjcooper> Please do!

<HarryRedd> Go for it Tonid, It will save me from asking some questions and prompt others. /;-)

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Treehugge!

<django> hi treehugger

<HarryRedd> Hi TREE Good to see you!

<Treehugge> Hi people!

<Nesssus> Shall we start working through the discussion questions?

<Treehugge> Hey harry, you too.

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Bill!

<django> hi bill

<Bill> Hi Carol

<krenon> THE bill?

<HarryRedd> Sure Nessus. WOOz vs RW?

<Leviathan> . o O (The cat????)

<Bill> Hi ALL

<Redflame> Discussion questions: my first one is where is Larry?

<HarryRedd> TRULY Red.

<krenon> The hard ones first :-)

<Redflame> Hi Bill

<Nesssus> must be caught in a flash crowd somewhere

<Bill> Hi

<HarryRedd> Hello Bill, Welcome.

<Bill> Hi Harry

<krenon> There's dedication. How's Perth at 4 am Bill?

<Redflame> Finishing lunch would be my bet!

<Treehugge> 4AM, ouch

<Bill> a little tired this morning

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Deoin!

<tonid> ... and planning to complete the Man-Kzin Wars series (I only have the first two). I lost Neutron Star some years ago and can't buy it anywhere now since it's out of print :(

<Treehugge> or finishing breakfast!

<Nesssus> Krenon: very bleary-eyed

<Bill> got two cups of tea in front of me

<tonid> ouff that was a burst ;)

<bjcooper> I'm impressed by 4 AM -- that's dedication

<HarryRedd> Good Grief PERTH ar 4 Am? That must be like Salt Lake City on a Sunday Morning!

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, SteveS!

<krenon> There are plenty of copies of Neutron Star going second hand in Australia

<SteveS> Hello!

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, zem!

<zem> 'lo all :)

<TheARM> hi zem

<Redflame> I'd do 4 am to talk to Larry. But then if one is the organizer, one gets to set the time at a convenient time!

<Leviathan> Hi-ho!

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Bill1!

<django> tonid: I know the feeling - 2 copies of neutron star both went walkies & now I can't find another :-(

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Akatsukam!

<SteveS> D'oh!

<tonid> krenon: not in Poland :( I have only 2 bookstores in Poland that sell foreign books and none of them have Neutron Star (they don't carry second hand books) and I can't find any on the net either...

<Treehugge> popular book, eh?

<krenon> Bummer.

<Akatsukam> Thanx, Nesssus. Appropriate TOD, all.

<Leviathan> tonid do currency issues prevent you from using foreign bookstores over the net?

<Redflame> Can't find them on the net? Have you looked on ABE BOOKS? Highly recommend that one. They even have a copy of that one edition, of RW? that only has 26 of them singed and numbered.

<tonid> Treehugge: I regard it as one of the best, great selection of stories. Luckily some of the stories are also in Crashlander but for example I don't have "The Handicapped" anywhere else...

<Leviathan> If not, I recommend http://www.bibliofind.com

<krenon> Neither Amazon nor B&N? How about watching Ebay auctions?

<HarryRedd> Sounds like you've got a Market Krenon. Buy up all you can and post them as available on your Website. /:-) Say $10 US each = Shipping?

<Redflame> really abebooks is your best bet.

<tonid> Leviathan: not all stores accept credit cards and I'm reluctant to use cards for smaller stores (I only buy in amazon...) after the e-universe affair...

<Redflame> hey, I just found a very fine first edition of Protector for 65c. Well worth the investment!

<bjcooper> Amazon has it listed as both oop and on order -- so maybe its being reprinted?

<tonid> krenon: can't buy on ebay - their card system does not accept cards from Poland yet and I have no international money orders available here...

<krenon> Oh.

<Leviathan> /msg tonid I've had good luck finding and buying via credit card from the small bookstores I've found through bibliofind. Never a problem for me.

<Redflame> Ok, none of you are Larry Niven in disguise are you?

<Leviathan> d'oh!

<TheARM> me, me!!

<tonid> I didn't try B&N yet, they're big - should be safe...

<Treehugge> no, me

<HarryRedd> TONID Check for an AMERICAN EXPRESS agent. I know there's one in Warsaw

<TheARM> its me I tell you!

<Akatsukam> I'm not, my name as my word :)

<SteveS> Not me.

<Treehugge> B&N are very god and very safe.

<django> I'm Larry Niven and so's my wife!

<Treehugge> oops!

<Redflame> Right, I believe that ARM.

<tonid> HarryRedd: American Express might have international money orders?

<Treehugge> Freudian slip, there...!

<HarryRedd> I'm just Harry Redd. /:-)

<SteveS> That's good enough for us. :-)

<krenon> Funny if he was lurking there and wouldn't tell us.

<HarryRedd> They are SURE TO TONID. American Express Money Orders are accepted in Zambia and China.

<Leviathan> Somebody mention gun control, and see who exits chat.

<tonid> also buying from stores in the US is a pain... the delivery time approaches 2 months while books from the UK come in 2 days!!!

<tonid> HarryRedd: I'll ask, thx :)

<krenon> Well you just did and I'm watching.

<HarryRedd> NO COMMENT Leviathan

* django never mentioned gun control - honest

<bjcooper> Did I miss something?

* Leviathan is evil, but will now shut up.

<Leviathan> ...for a moment, at least.

<HarryRedd> Hi Kees

<kees> hello HarryRed

* django apologized about the gun control thread last month

<Akatsukam> We accept, django...provisionally :)

* django is hiding under his keyboard

<SteveS> I got about halfway through re-reading RW before the chat happened.

<Redflame> Thanks for the apology. but anyone who participated is also guilty!

<Treehugge> I don't know if I can buy this Oz/RW comparison completely.

<Leviathan> Sorry!

<Treehugge> But if I did, I'd put Teela as the tin man.

<HarryRedd> Ok GUILTY as Charged, However I have gone shooting with Larry and Jerry.

<krenon> What did you shoot?

<Treehugge> shooting with or at...? :)~

<SteveS> <chuckle>

<Nesssus> Treehug beat me to that pun.....

* django now has beer - returns from under keyboard

<django> oops under

<Treehugge> Okay, we're talking gnus, here.....cut it out before Larry sees us!

<HarryRedd> Targets. /:-) I said WITH. /:-)

<zem> yeah, let's not be shooting off at the mouth

<Akatsukam> I thought the "Oz == Ringworld" matter was supposed to be an unconscious sort of thing?

<Treehugge> You keep the beer under there....? Heck of a keyboard!

<Nesssus> gnus are the targets.....?

<django> GNU??? open source weaponry?

* TheARM wonders if anyone here would like some of his Dr Pepper?

* krenon thinks YUK

<zem> might be that oz tapped into some deeper paradigm :)

<Bill1> not at 4 am thanks

<Akatsukam> "Dr Pepper"? Ick, no thank you.

<Redflame> Larry is having problems finding us

<django> Treehugge: Finest kind ;-)

<HarryRedd> Iced Tea for me. (Wishing I could get some TETLEYS!)

<Treehugge> I don't know if I even buy it as unconscious. It's just a common story type; done before OZ, I wouldn't doubt.

<Treehugge> Everybody wave so Larry can see us!

* Nesssus offers a round of carrot juice to everyone!

<Leviathan> Look, Oz is largely flat, and covered with kangaroos. Ringworld is round covered with hominids. Not much to hang this on...

<Akatsukam> Who then is William Jennings Bryan? :)

<TheARM> The cyber bar is open, orders please

<zem> Ringworld is flat!

* Akatsukam waves vigorously

<django> any archetype is going to remind you of another

<krenon> What's special about Tetleys?

<Treehugge> I've got my caffiene-free diet pepsi and my cookies.

<TheARM> krenon its great Tea, thats what

<krenon> That is not Oz.

*** tonid is now known as Knazol

<Knazol> ;>>>>

<TheARM> Akatsukam, what would you like?

<Knazol> I'm in tonid's body now ;>

<django> Knazol?

<Treehugge> I would like the immortality pills LN mentioned on the list.

<Nesssus> Zem, looks like you're last for orders at the bar:-)

*** Knazol is now known as tonid

<tonid> ;)))

* django wonders if it cures stuffy noses...

<krenon> Is that pronounced nasal?

<HarryRedd> The taste compared to most American brands

<Akatsukam> Nothing for me, thanks. I don't usually consume fluids at this (local) hour.

<Leviathan> It is if you're an American. All I know about Australia I learned watching "QANTAS" commercials.

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Tosh!

<tonid> hehe I just realized I've been using the word "bandersnatch" as a password for years ;>

<HarryRedd> Hi TOSH

<Tosh> Hi -

* zem grins

<tonid> no password scanning utility could get that one ;>

<zem> as long as they have irish cofee

<zem> s/f/ff

<Akatsukam> Well, that eliminates guessing by all but Niven fans and Carroll fans. :)

<Leviathan> Unless it was reading this public chat channel.

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Gordon!

<Leviathan> If I used that as a password, my SysAdmin would be Frumious!

<krenon> I'll tell you some time about how Oz came to me associated with Australia

<Tosh> Am a bit late - been packing for an early flight to Apachicola tomorrow - anyone from round there?

<Gordon> Evening all!

<TheARM> django, and so went forth the slivery sloth of discontent

<HarryRedd> GHOD I miss Irish Coffee!

<Tosh> Yo Gordon

<tonid> must start using 'vandervecken' now however that'd be too easy to misspell ;>

<Treehugge> *sigh* I can't remember how to do that "action" thing.....little help, please?

<tonid> I might have misspelled it even now ;>

<Treehugge> krenon, I thought it was just the sound...?

<tonid> Treehugge: /me action

<krenon> Is that just a coincidence that Tosh and Gordon came on about the same time?

<kees> /me <text>

<Akatsukam> Frankly, I don't even know where Apachicola is, so probably not.

<Leviathan> "/me {Whatever action you want to do"

<Treehugge> Oh...duh! thanks

<Tosh> Yup -pubs are still open!

* zem thought apachicola was a native American soft drink

<Gordon> LOL zem!

* Akatsukam snorts

<Bill1> LOL

<Redflame> Ok, Larry is on his way here.

* Leviathan smiles and tells Treehugger he's welcome.

<tonid> oh yeah I can't seem to remember - who/what is 'frumious'? :)

<Tosh> It's the "forgotten" part of florida -no disney, just empty beaches. Sorry to be so OT

<Akatsukam> Genus name for the bandersnatch.

<Leviathan> It's the modifier usually used before "Bandersnatch."

*** fithp has joined #KNOWNSPACE

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, fithp!

<django> just after the jubjub bird

<SteveS> Hello, Larry!

<tonid> woow :)

<HarryRedd> TONID You should get a copy of ALICE IN WONDERLAND and THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS by LOUIS CARROLL.

<Gordon> Welcome!

<Leviathan> Lead us, Herdmaster!

* Treehugge waves at Larry

<zem> 'lo larry

<Treehugge> Welcome, Larry!

<tonid> HarryRedd: I read this in college ;))) but forgot all of it...

<HarryRedd> Hi Larry.

<Redflame> Yeah! Hi Larry!

<Bill1> Welcome Larry

* django is not worthy

<tonid> HarryRedd: I even went to a course called "through the looking glass" :)))

<django> hi Larry!

<Tosh> Hi from Scotland Larry

* tonid finished college in Canada

<Akatsukam> Afternoon, Larry.

<krenon> Hi from Australia Larry

<TheARM> TheARm would just like to mention that if it gets too unruly here tonight, I WILL CLAMP DOWN and moderate this channel!

<Treehugge> To your world, welcome!

<tonid> hi from Poland Larry :)

<Gordon> Hey, I'd forgotten Tosh was here in Edinburgh!

<Nesssus> Hello from Merry old England Larry

<Treehugge> Unruly? Us??

<SteveS> Never!

<bjcooper1> Hi - off and back on. Glad you made it Larry

<django> as if

<Akatsukam> Perish the thought, ARM :)

<Treehugge> We will not upset the ARM.

<Tosh> Ted didn't forget, Gordon - Ted forgets nothing

<Gordon> Scary, isn't it?

* Treehugge doesn't want his technology confiscated.

* django is formulating a dangerous idea

<Tosh> Ted did most of the Pak threads? ;-))

* krenon thinks he didn't

<Treehugge> First discussion question, or does Larry have one?

<Redflame> Larry is still having problems getting here. Just a sec.

* krenon awaits with bated breath

<Treehugge> Bummer. Brownies in his computer?

<Tosh> We all do

<Akatsukam> Worms in your mouth, Ted? :)

<Nesssus> lol, I've suffered with toast before

<zem> chocolate brownies?

* zem perks up

<tonid> I found Neutron Star in B&N! :)))

<SteveS> Woo-hoo!

<Akatsukam> Most excellent.

* Treehugge loves B&N.

<krenon> He appears to be trying to communicate but it's not working.

<Leviathan> B&N is deeply cool.

<Gordon> Maybe if we all joined hands?

* Treehugge 's family hates it when he disappears into B&N.

<tonid> he has to re-adjust his maser beam ;)))

<bjcooper1> My family won't let me near one!

<HarryRedd> -k-

<Akatsukam> Not a firewall problem, is it?

<django> Treehugge - you have a book fetish too?

<Nesssus> joining hands are ok, just don't start singing kum-by-ya

<bjcooper1> No porblem here -- I can't sing well!

<Leviathan> how about "Zum gali gali gali?

<HarryRedd> NOT BANNED FROM ARGO AGAIN!

<Tosh> Some filk perhaps?

<Gordon> Books aren't a fetish, they're a necessity

<Akatsukam> We do have some taste, Nesssus.

<Treehugge> Big one, Django. Always got a list of books that are next to read.

<SteveS> A rousing Kzinti war-chant? :-)

<bjcooper1> That's better

<Akatsukam> They chant, rather than just screaming and leaping?

* Treehugge screams and leaps at his screen; hurts his nose.

<SteveS> LOL

<krenon> A scream and leap is a challenge. They do other things

<django> Treehugge - Do you suffer from the one book in each room syndrome or are you single threaded?

<HarryRedd> I think a WONDERLAND war chant would be more singable. /:-)

<Gordon> Bit like the New Zealand rugby team

* tonid chews on his gnal ;>

<django> as long as noone starts on 'gin gan goolie'

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, CarolTLP!

* Treehugge 's family leaving room slowly...

<zem> no, a threat is a challenge :)

<fithp> Found it!

<SteveS> Yes!

<krenon> :-)

<django> :-)

<tonid> HarryRedd: ))))

<Nesssus> The first discussion question is, how old was everyone when they first read Ringworld and how many repeat readings has your copy had ......

<Leviathan> Lead us, Herdmaster!

<fithp> Hello, everyone. Sorry I'm late. That was NOT intuitive. Thanks for the help. Carol.

<Treehugge> Original copy long gone. Been through 3 or 4.

<mikeash> I think I was about 12, I've re-read it maybe two or three times, and I don't have a copy :(

<Redflame> You are supremely welcome, Larry!

<SteveS> I was in high school. I have several copies, including the free one that came with the RW computer game.

<Treehugge> I guess I was about 15.

<Nesssus> I must have been about 13 or so and I still have my copy, if a little worse for wear now

<Akatsukam> Probably around 25, Nesssus, and I'm on my second copy now; wore out the first.

<Leviathan> I was twelvish. Re-read a couple of dozen times by now.

<Bill1> 16 here and about 4 times

* zem was 11 or 12 - was my first modern sf novel

<django> first read at 12 - now on 3rd copy which has started to fall apart

<Nesssus> is there anyone here who has the first edition where the world rotates in the other direction?

<Tosh> Started SF at 6, but no Niven until my 20s - don't know why

<tonid> I was about 20-21 (7-8 years ago) when I got fascinated by the picture of a Puppeteer in Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestials and decided to get Ringworld - I did it when visiting the UK :). Then I lent the copy to a friend and it disappeared (I had a chance to read it 3-4 times before that) - recently re-ordered it from Amazon and got... 2 copies by mistake - gave one to a friend to start a new Niven fan ;)

<zem> still have the copy :) falling to pieces though, but I don't want to replace it because I like the cover

<bjcooper1> Late teens I think - maybe early 20's, and reread it twice recently

<django> which cover you got zem?

<Akatsukam> Neither copy, I afraid, Nesssus. Didn't start reading Niven until college (as a substitute for studying, alas).

<Gordon> Larry, when was the book signing tour you did with Steven Barnes to publicize Barsoom Project? You signed my copy of RW then and it had been virtually read to death

<zem> django: the Sphere one, with the Ringworld and sun on a black background

<Redflame> I was in my middle 20's the first time I read RW. And I've read it maybe 5 times, if you count listening to it once.

<HarryRedd> Did you get my post from Leslie?

<fithp> substitute for studying, right. I read SF at Cal Tech instead of studying, got kicked out.</p>

<tonid> I started SF with a local writer - Stanislaw Lem - but Larry's books were one of the first SF I read in English and my collection has about 3x more Larry's books than any other author's :)

<krenon> As every bio of you tells us :-)

<SteveS> Here's a thought: Louis describes his career path. He was independently wealthy, and tried several things. Couldn't do science, writing was too much work. Was Larry the same, except he found he likes writing?

<mikeash> I regularly read things instead of studying

<Tosh> Gordon, seem to recall it was ~1990; I didn't go to the signing in Edinburgh -sob

<Leviathan> I suspect Larry took less time making up his mind!

<zem> what post from Leslie?

<fithp> You could grow up civilized, it used to be, if you started Heinlein at age 10. The names may have changed.

<mikeash> I started on Asimov at about that age

<Akatsukam> Don't know if Louis' (apparent) screenwriting is the same as short stories and novels.

<mikeash> didn't find Heinlein until I was about 19, though

<Treehugge> Writing IS hard work, at times.

* TheARM stated on Bob Heinlein at about ten, also JRR Tolkien and Asimov

<django> never could get into Heinlein

<SteveS> Wow, that's late!

<Leviathan> With me it was Bradbury at six. My brother read me "Kaleidoscope" as a bedtime story.

<HarryRedd> I started with Heinlein when the librarian wanted me to read Freddy the Pig.

<Gordon> 1990 sounds about right - I'd probably had the book about ten years by then so I'd have been about 22

<django> started on Clarke at about 8

<zem> ooh - kaleidoscope is my favourite of his

* TheARM wants to learn to typoe proPerlY

<zem> would *not* want to have read it at age six, though :)

<Akatsukam> Heinlein juveniles were probably first, at about 12-13.

<mikeash> I think the first SF-type books I read were CS Lewis

<Nesssus> were starting to drift here a little, back to RINGWORLD, who was your favourite character?

* Redflame thinks the illustration on my *first edition* RW looks like a kinetiscope, which is really weird seeing little pictures of a landscape instead of a landscape form a Birdseye view.

<krenon> Ah

<Gordon> Louis was my favourite

<Nesssus> I think that my own answer is obvious :-)

<Akatsukam> Probably Speaker, Nesssus. I think he could develop more than the others.

<Treehugge> Fav character, Speaker.

<krenon> Other Ringworld art makes it look like that too

<zem> that's the one I have - the kinetiscope one

<bjcooper1> Heinlein at an early age is wonderfully dangerous. I'm a girl, but I wanted to grow up and be Jubal Harshaw (he was so! smart)

<Bill1> Speaker for me

<SteveS> Speaker for me, too. He seemed to get the best lines. :-)

<zem> I like it, though :) nice effect

<Leviathan> Favorite Ringworld character? Speaker almost gets first place with hhis dry wit, but Nessus -- puppeteers in general -- fascinates me.

<HarryRedd> Speaking of Ring WORLD. IF Teela is Tin Man, Speaker is Cowardly Lion and Nessus is scarecrow and Louis is Dorothy, Is HINDMOST THE WIZARD?

<Akatsukam> He did that, too, Steve.

<django> favourite was speaker

* zem liked Louis and speaker about equally

<Nesssus> which character did Larry enjoy creating the most?

<Redflame> Well, Louis, of course! I can relate to a 200 year old rich man who can't figure out what he wants to do with his life than I can an alien or a girl that has never been hurt.

<zem> they got most of the good lines

<tonid> concerning the fav character - difficult question :). Louis was OK but I'd say that Speaker and Nessus were more interesting ;)

<fithp> Yeah, there's a lot of me in Louis Wu.

<krenon> Teela. I wanted to be alone with her <letch>

<bjcooper1> Louis - once more, smart.

<Bill1> lol @Ted

<tonid> I can definitely relate to one thing in Louis - the sabbaticals - sometimes I wish I could go on a sabbatical myself... :)

<Nesssus> next question, would you sleep with your favourite character?

<Akatsukam> After 200 years, though, I think hat Louis is more set in the ways that he doesn't want to go.

<mikeash> especially when they involve a starship...

<django> tonid: amen to that

<Gordon> With Louis? Naaah

* zem would certainly not (:

<Bill1> sleep with a kzin.....sure

<Akatsukam> With Speaker? Get real :)

<fithp> the weirdest still-plausible characters are my favorites. Nessus. Renner's Motie. Harpanet.

<SteveS> I wouldn't, unless I wanted a quick death. :-)

<zem> well, unless it was really cold - then I'd sleep with speaker as long as I made no sudden movements

<HarryRedd> I enjoyed the MOTIES.

<krenon> OT but was Harpanet a take on ARPAnet?

<Leviathan> Er... Define "Sleep with." "Be somnolent in the presence of?" Sure. "Have sex with?" Not a chance!

<tonid> the thing I admire in Speaker most is self-control :)

<django> I liked Nessus more after I read 'soft weapon'

* zem always assumed it was

<Redflame> Yes! I'd sleep with Louis! Well, if my husband let me. Hmm, maybe both!

<Treehugge> I liked the idea of Nessus' secret mission to study the interactions of his crew.

<Nesssus> actually if sleeping was all that was going on, cuddling up to a Kzin might be very cosy

<SteveS> Another thing about Speaker -- who couldn't love a gigantic furry carnivore who likes to have his ears rubbed by beautiful girls.

<django> after reading MKOL I quite fancy an afternoon with a puppeteer....

<Akatsukam> Did "Nessus" chose his appellation with malice aforethought?

<zem> like having your cat join you in bed, only in reverse

<Gordon> Warmer than the artificial kzinti pelt aboard Needle, Nesssus

<mikeash> I think I would be fairly afraid of a 500-pound carnivore that thinks I taste good, no matter how friendly

* Redflame knows that an AMERICAN wrote those questions, and to an AMERICAN "sleeping with" means "to know in the Biblical sense."

<Akatsukam> ?me 's kzin...err, cat, is on the bed now.

<fithp> Nessus (the centaur) was a teacher, remember.

<tonid> I don't think sleeping with a Puppeteer would be a good idea - suppose he felt endangered in the middle of the night when you wanted to give him a hug and you'd feel his hind leg knocking... you know what ;>>>>

<SteveS> Oh yes, my cat, AKA "micro-kzin"... :-)

<Treehugge> Interesting way to commit suicide; make a pass at Ch'mee.

<Nesssus> What was everyone's favourite line or scene in the story?

<Leviathan> I figure, if Speaker thought I was dinner, I'd have no hope anyway, awake or asleep. If he didn't, then I'd be safe as houses.

<Redflame> Django: LOL! I guess you HAD a lovely afternoon with a puppeteer!

<krenon> Was he? But he violated that woman that Hercules had taken.

* zem notes that he proposed the 'sleeping with' question so the American argument fails ;) not that that's not what I meant, of course

<mikeash> well, remember what happened to Louis when he woke Chmeee up in RWE

<Gordon> Fav scene - when Speaker overhears Nessus mention the starseed lure

<Akatsukam> I may be mis-remembering, but didn't Nessus also try to carry off Deianera?

<krenon> Right!

* zem loved the bit where speaker took the variable sword off Louis

<Treehugge> Agreed, Gordon...very subtle and powerful.

<fithp> Sorry, I've got the wrong centaur. There was a Chiron puppeteer on the homeworld...a teacher.

<bjcooper1> Sleeping question - I suspect that after 200 years Louis would have some nice experiences to impart --

<krenon> He "slept with" her and Herc killed him

<django> krenon: breeding for luck = violating teela?

<HarryRedd> A CONVENTION FOR PRIVATE DETECTIVES! (The EYE STORM.)

<Redflame> Well, since my LAST re-reading only got me through the first few chapters, my fav has to come from those: the description of Teela's party outfit is my favorite, the flaming red hair!

<Leviathan> Favorite scene: When I realized what Fist-of-God was. I went "Wow!!!!"

<django> favourite line/scene: Teela "the wing's gone"

<krenon> Ah.

<Leviathan> Favorite line: The dialogue between Louis and Speaker when they're first encountering the Ringworld, and trying to communicate with its inhabitants.

<bjcooper1> Favorite part -- I loved the first descriptions of Ringworlds, and the time before they left when Louis tried to comfort Nessus on the lawn

<Nesssus> My favourite was the scene in the garden on the puppeteer homeworld and the stepping disks

<tonid> hehe I liked the bit when Teela came with her new boyfriend :)))

<Akatsukam> My favorite line -- "When Kzin gets too crowded..." "You attack the nearest human world."

<zem> the extended description of plateau trance

<HarryRedd> Larry, one question not answered. How do you aim a Solar Laser at something incoming in th4e exact plane of the Ringworld?

<krenon> Nessus, catching Louis and Teela at it and saying "No known species copulates as often as you" or similar.

<Leviathan> "Parrots! Giant parrots, bred just for the purpose. They're lungs are too big to fly, so they sit on hilltops and scream at each other!"

<mikeash> I always assumed you just hoped it wasn't in the exact plane

<zem> didn't teela do that in engineers?

<Treehugge> I also liked Louis' realization of the age gap between himself and Teela, after his exercise joke.

<SteveS> Speaker: "Excuse me."

* Nesssus is glad that Krenon is letching again <g>

<Leviathan> "...if not for your helpful suggestions, Louis Wu, I would despair.

<HarryRedd> Favorite scene in RW is when Louis is on KZIN in the Hunting park!

<fithp> You can't use the sun-powered laser on something in the Ringworld plane. It's a flaw.

* Redflame has been wondering how a puppeteer can have claws and hooves at the same time, since claws and hooves are both modified toes.

<bjcooper1> Another favorite was the description of the eye storm

<django> hence fist of god

* zem nods at django

<Akatsukam> On Earth, they are.

<SteveS> If it's used to attack, it's a claw, otherwise it's a hoof.

<HarryRedd> That DOES explain FIST OF GOD and the EYE STORM. I would have thought the ENGINEERS would plan better than that though. Maybe the system went down?

<Treehugge> Objects in the plane had to have another defense.....damaged by Prill's people?

<Nesssus> if fist-of-god was coming in at a different angle, would the sun-laser have been a good deterrent?

<tonid> zem: I'm confused ;) (last re-reading was one right after the other - but I believe that Teela met her boyfriend in RW and stayed on RW with him...)

<SteveS> Right, tonid.

<Treehugge> Tilt the RW so the plane shifts...?

<django> I would have thought the engineers would have thought that anything in the miniscule part of the sky they couldn't hit with the laser could be taken care of manually

<Akatsukam> If the REs saw it from far enough out, yes, Nesssus.

<fithp> A hoof is one toenail. Puppeteers kept the other toes as claws.

* Redflame has been envisioning a pair of hooves in the back, like cloven hooves on deer, and a single claw in the front, repeating the "three part symmetry" of the legs on a PP.

<django> considering that in Throne they were examining things in the cometary halo...

<Nesssus> Nice hominids don't do Rishathra ........

<Akatsukam> Remember, the protectors thought that they and their get would be around forever.

<Redflame> Ah, just ONE toe is a hoof.

<Treehugge> Maybe as the RW spins, it's also supposed to turn?

<HarryRedd> Boiling the front of an incoming Asteroid would produce a reaction slowing it's incoming direction.

* django does not consider himself a 'nice hominid'

<tonid> HarryRedd: I'd say that the probability of something coming exactly in the plane would be soooo small that they disregarded it - the composed probability of a large enough object coming in the plane is minimal...

<Gordon> I also liked the part where Louis climbed ten flights of stairs in the floating castle, then later found that Teela tripped on the bottom step and discovered the stairs worked like an escalator

* zem thinks it'd wobble too much if it did that

<fithp> re objects in the plane: maybe you can induce a super thermal laser effect in the exhaust from an attitude jet.

<Treehugge> We do too, Nessus! :)~

<zem> but I could be wrong

<Akatsukam> Right, Harry, and in orbital mechanics, you just have to change an object's velocity, not destroy it.

<Treehugge> Maybe Fist-0f-God was thrown.

<zem> by the puppeteers?

<Nesssus> Treehug fancies Speaker, Treehug fancies speaker :-)

<Treehugge> No, I fancy his wives!

<HarryRedd> Re Attitude Jets: That could work but the Puls timing would be critical and have to be balanced.

<SteveS> What about space surprises? In the Outsiders scenes, who could have known that Triton would have pink ice?

<Akatsukam> If Tunguska had arrived five hours earlier, it wouldn't have hit St. Petersburg, it would have missed Earth completely.

* zem 's main question was how the protectors managed to develop scrith

* Treehugge smiling and covered with band-aids.

<tonid> PS I always wondered how the puppeteers walk with three legs - it's difficult to maintain balance with three legs - their walking style must be interesting ;)

<Akatsukam> Elegantly, zem :)

<Leviathan> I don't see protectors leaving things to chance. I do see them using gravity lenses to re-direct the solar laser around the Ringworld to take out stuff behind the plane.

<zem> LOL

<zem> indeed

<TheARM> me wonders what happens if one head of a puppeteer fancies the other head instead of other puppeteers

<django> fithp: how much Ringworld science was there first? as opposed to what was filled in afterward...

<Gordon> Like a one-legged man on a pair of crutches? (Shivith?)

<tonid> TheARM: ROTFL :)

<HarryRedd> Hmmm, that would put FIST of GOD AFTER the Super Conductor Plague.

<Leviathan> ARM, remember that the heads are not independent, they're just ayastocks.

<zem> if they had artificial gravity they wouldn't have spun the Ringworld

<Redflame> Well, I think that HUMANS need to loosen up their attitudes about sex, well, but then, maybe they need to be tightened. I can't imagine having looser attitudes. Surely there are people on earth who aren't as liberal sexually as Louis and Teela. Maybe they would have a problem with rishathra.

<Treehugge> I had assumed what was filled in later was not as advanced as the tech that built it.

<fithp> I've seen studies of a puppeteer's gait. They were adapted from a three-legged dog's.

<tonid> TheARM: remember there's only one brain and it's in between the two ;) it's like if your hands fancied one another ;)))

<Akatsukam> It's probably more similar to an insect crawling that a vertebrate walking, tonid.

<mikeash> zem, spinning gravity won't fail, but with artificial gravity if you have a power failure everybody dies

<zem> true

<tonid> Akatsukam: but an insect has 6 legs, not 3 - it can raise 3 and not lose balance :)

<Gordon> Not if they're all on the same side

<Nesssus> actually, I think it would be the reverse, the younger generations would want to try new things, while 200-year olds would not want to take the risk

<zem> and protectors did favor brutally simple mechanisms

<mikeash> my hands do fancy each other...

<TheARM> so it would be narcissism?

<fithp> how much Ringworld science...? I've been upgrading for thirty years. They keep changing the universe on me.

<Redflame> PP walking: A hop in the walk would be nice. Maybe the back hoof is larger to accommodate not only kicking, but more balance.

<HarryRedd> ARM LOL!

<bjcooper1> Sorry to bug out early - got to go. Fun. Thx for reminding, Carol! :-)

<Leviathan> The protectors have demonstrated ability to make gravity lenses. But why use a system like that -- dependent on technology and liable to break down for surface gravity when they can just spin the darned thing and let inertia do that work for free.

<Gordon> Seeya bj

<HarryRedd> ADIOS BJ

<Akatsukam> Ciao, bj.

<HarryRedd> Gravity Lenses for LASER USE Leviathan

<zem> no, Brennan made the gravity lens in protector. I can't remember a native protector building one

<tonid> Redflame: a hop would be good for running, but for slow walking it's a bit difficult - even if the rear hoof is wider :)

<SteveS> So, what were some of the biggest Known Space-related science surprises over the years?

<django> brb - parental duties

<Gordon> Mercury rotating

<Nesssus> Next discussion question: Ringworld-centric phraseology like "spill mountain" what other examples can people remember

<Akatsukam> Ah, but who says that they "walk", tonid?

<HarryRedd> But they sure could dance a waltz. /:-)

* Redflame has seen bunnies walk quite slowly.

<Leviathan> I don't suppose that Brennan could do what the Engineer Protectors could not.

<krenon> Flup. Lovely word

<fithp> Bye Brenda.

<Akatsukam> "Spinward" and "antispinward", surely, Nesssus.

<zem> spinward

<tonid> Akatsukam: I can't imagine a creature not being able to walk slowly and only run...

<Nesssus> but flup is just mud after all

<HarryRedd> I suspect that Brennan could. After all, he started Smarter and with a bigger Database.

<Nesssus> anyone fancy a flup bath? <g>

<Leviathan> Shadow Squares!

<Gordon> The Arch

<Leviathan> The Arch!

<Treehugge> Rishathra. :)

<Redflame> tasp!

<krenon> Imagine selling flup to the fithp? Different universes.

<Akatsukam> Kangaroos, tonid? They walk, true, but with an almost entirely different mechanism from hopping.

<Treehugge> shadow-square wire, as opposed to Sinclair mon.

<Redflame> So, what ARE The medicinal qualities of a flup bath? Good for the skin?

<tonid> Leviathan: remember that Knazol/Greenberg was able to think of things Knazol would not think of - Brennan would be in the same situation - knowledge brought by the human race helped him think of things in a different way a native Pak would

<HarryRedd> FUEL!

<Gordon> That's another of my favourite scenes - when they see the Arch for the first time

<tonid> Akatsukam: true, you got me here :)

<Leviathan> (Right about when RWT came out, McDonalds was advertising a burger called the "Arch Deluxe" I got both for a friend who was a Niven fan for his birthday, and his first words on seeing the sandwich with the book was "That's what I thought of too!"

<Treehugge> Interesting that the natives in some of the RW mistook what flup was.

<krenon> I went to see an exhibition of Dead Sea scrolls. They were selling "Dead sea mud soap".

<django> RIMWALL!

<Akatsukam> I think that we have to remember: kzinti are not big cats, and puppeteers are not three-legged deer.

<Treehugge> agreed, Akat.

<HarryRedd> I suspect that FLUP would be slightly corrosive, It containing dissolved salts washed down from the land.

<Redflame> So flup soap isn't totally out of the question! Some clays have wonderful reputations as additives to cosmetics and soaps.

<Treehugge> Their evolution can be compared to Earth's only marginally.

<tonid> concerning the vocabulary - falans :)

<zem> was 'wayspirit' invented in Ringworld throne?

<krenon> That's a worry. McDonalds might want to buy the Ringworld as publicity

<Akatsukam> The penchant of the human brain for mapping the strange onto the familiar may cause us to think of them that way...

* Treehugge startled by the thought.

<Nesssus> Next question: I know that this will involve discussion on Protectors, Outsiders and the Tnuctipun but .... who built the Ringworld?

<Redflame> McD's can't afford to buy the RW, but maybe Bill Gates can!

<Leviathan> "Sixty Billion People Served, and none has ever seen another!"

<HarryRedd> Oh NO! PUPPETEERS as Giveaway toys? (Shudders!)

<Gordon> Spaghetti plant

<Treehugge> me!!

<krenon> So should Dead Sea mud

<Akatsukam> ...but we have to watch that tendency.

<Nesssus> lol Leviathan

<SteveS> Beany Puppeteers.

* zem votes for outsiders (the scrith problem, mostly. even the puppeteers didn't know how to make that)

<krenon> Cecil

<Treehugge> Who built it? Well, round up the usual suspects.

<Leviathan> I'd love a toy puppeteer. (In fact, I'm going to make one!)

<HarryRedd> My vote is the PAK. The armor and tree of life fits.

<Tosh> Darker geometry canon - IMHO

<tonid> Redflame: imagine Gates wanting to improve the algorithms of the sun laser and the consequences of it... ;>>> lots of burned Ringworld natives ;>

<Redflame> It wouldn't take much alteration of the beanie ostriches to make a beanie PP.

<Akatsukam> Pak protectors, Nesssus. No question (in my mind).

<Treehugge> I think maybe a suspect or two missing...?

<Gordon> Agreed - the Pak

<django> I would say outsiders - then colonized by Pak

<mikeash> I agree, Pak

<zem> "where do you want to blow up today?"

<Leviathan> Pak. I don't buy "A Darker Geometry."

<tonid> the Pak, definitely

<krenon> The puppeteer that greeted Larry in Sydney in the late 1970's is still alive and well. It has been spotted recently.

<HarryRedd> Yeah Windows as a weapons operating system (VOMITS out of fear!)

* zem would say outsiders, but to Pak specifications

<Treehugge> I don't know if the Pak know enough, unless one stumbled on the secret of cheap, easy scrith.

<Redflame> Which leads one to the question of how many people can the RW support in what level of technology?

<zem> they were a trading race, after all

<tonid> what other reason would be to accommodate so many things on RW to human needs...

<tonid> only the Pak - but they could have help from someone else

<mikeash> Darker Geometry was interesting, but it seemed pretty clear to me that it couldn't be taken as part of KS "history"

<tonid> not the Tnuctipun for sure, possibly Outsider help

<Gordon> Imagine a Ringworld as overpopulated as the world in Bordered in Black (different universe, I know)

<fithp> I have had toy puppeteers, mostly gifts, in myriad forms. Silver. Fired clay. pipe cleaners. Origami paper. Paintings, of course.

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, vxpmrz3!

<zem> 'lo vxpmrz3

<Akatsukam> Three million times the area of the Earth, I think, Redflame? Take Earth's carrying capacity and multiply by three million :)

<vxpmrz3> Hiya Nessus and everybody else!

<Treehugge> I'd suspect the Outsiders built it. The question then becomes, why???

<tonid> but only scientific help - outsiders are too fragile to involve in building something with gravity - they'd have to test it but how if they're killed by moon gravity?

<django> hi vx

<Leviathan> I'm gathering parts for a 1/6th scale action figure.

<HarryRedd> Interesting thought. If the PAK (Protectors) destroyed all Alien Races they came in contact with, why did they not destroy the OUTSIDERS? They had knowledge of them.

<Nesssus> Vxpmrz3: now you're not going to swear like a sailor now are you? <g>

<Redflame> Yes, the outsiders know lots of things they don't' need to know themselves. They may be offering to build one for anyone who can afford it.

<Bill1> hi vx

<HarryRedd> Hi VX

<vxpmrz3> Nessus: I had planned to do so, but since K9 asked me not to, well, I'll respect it.

<SteveS> So the Pak now have a multi-trillion star debt to the Outsiders?

<tonid> possibly the Pak got scrith technology from Outsiders (and some other technologies as well)

<Akatsukam> Did they, Harry? KS canon; MKW stories not included (for argument's sake).

<Leviathan> I don't see the outsiders as active enough to build one. But they'll be happy to sell you the plans/formulae.

<fithp> GREAT! re the puppeteer who greeted us in Sydney in 1981: say hi for me.

<Nesssus> how many stars would a Ringworld cost?

<Treehugge> The Outsiders might have kicked the Pak's rock-hard butts.

<zem> but the Ringworld doesn't have the raw materials to support that large a population, does it?

<HarryRedd> Maybe I should have said TRY to destroy the OUTSIDERS. They have quite a DATABASE on weaponry.

<zem> sooner or later they would want ores etc

<krenon> Will do. It's at the University of New South Wales.

<Gordon> Studying what?

<krenon> Oh. 81?

<tonid> but then again Pak were so involved in fighting amongst themselves that I can't imagine them being able to afford Outsider services (fighting does not help to get rich)

<django> maybe the outsiders built it to keep their pets amused - the giant hamster is on its way

<zem> stars are a very KNOWNSPACE unit of currency :)

<krenon> No. It belongs to the UNSW SF group

<Akatsukam> Only if your tech levels are changing, zem. And there's some feedback there.

<zem> though I wonder what the protectors would have paid in. iridium, perhaps

<HarryRedd> TONID, Gold will not always get you good solders, but good solders can always get you gold. (Duke of PARMA).

<vxpmrz3> zern: services perhaps, they can be quite proficient at some things.

<tonid> HarryRedd: :))

<Treehugge> Django, lol!

<zem> or promises - they could have undertaken engineering projects for the outsiders

* Akatsukam considers django's idea -- and firmly decides to out it out of his mind

<tonid> also I believe both the Pak and Outsiders come from the galactic core so they might have a long history of dealing with one another

* zem nods - did the outsiders build their own cities?

<Treehugge> To buy the RW, you'd have to pay in actual stars!

<SteveS> Could they have sold Outsiders new technology? Protectors seem to knock off new tech over a weekend. :-)

<krenon> What does iridium do for them? You don't mean thallium do you?

<HarryRedd> Especially in the hot areas that the outsiders can't go to

<django> going by protector - would Pak actually trade with outsiders - judging from outsider tech it would only take one misunderstanding to remove the pak species

<zem> krenon: no, I was just citing iridium as a rare but useful metal

<tonid> I don't think Outsiders would remove a species

<vxpmrz3> As far as I can recall, the Outsiders are not violent..

<Tosh> For a price might they?

<krenon> What use is it?

<tonid> too honorable and it would not be wise to wipe out a potential customer ;)

<SteveS> As Larry said, if the protectors built RW, then they were very different from the ones in Protector.

<tonid> Tosh: but who'd pay Outsiders to wipe out Pak?...

<HarryRedd> VANADIUM Most likely more available at the CORE where suns evolve and NOVA faster.

<Redflame> But the RW could not support a technology as high as even ours without being a space faring society.

<Akatsukam> Is scrith go for anything except building a Ringworld?

<zem> Larry could add a scrith puppeteer to his collection :)

<Treehugge> I love the Outsiders as a story component. They need no recognizable motive, and might know or reveal anything!

<krenon> Wow! I think I could do a lot with scrith!

<tonid> the idea of Pak being able to work together instead of fighting is wild - too many of them would have to be involved in building the ring...

<vxpmrz3> Akatsukam: Any place you'd use steel, titanium, or some other such. I suspect.

<django> scrith would beat Teflon for frying...

* zem loves the outsiders in general - they're my favourite Niven race

<Tosh> Big galaxy out there

<Gordon> How do they stick Teflon to the pan?

<HarryRedd> IF you could MACHINE/FORM it krenon

<Redflame> Build a bridge form Australia to LA. You could drive to LosCon.

<Redflame> With scrith

<zem> except for not using hyperspace

<krenon> I must say that, canon or no, I like Martin and Benford's ideas about the Outsiders.

<tonid> the tnuctipun would be a good bet as RW builders

<Akatsukam> What's the density of scrith? No good as building material if it sinks through rock like water.

<vxpmrz3> Redflame: Yeah, but the breaks between gas stations would be killer. :)

<fithp> Everything mutates, given time, and the Outsiders have watched it. They don't seem to like Pak protectors, but a mutant might become user-friendly.

<tonid> they'd have the technology for sure and the minds for it - but the motive?...

<Treehugge> How old is the RW/

<krenon> You know it's a one leg flight, Carol?

<zem> but why would the tnuctipun build it to human specs?

<tonid> zem: exactly

<django> Gordon: you wouldn't need teflon - scrith is virtually frictionless

<vxpmrz3> Akatsukam: Maybe not so good on earth, but in space?

<HarryRedd> I wonder... Just think what we're doing with GRAFITE FIBER. Perhaps something BETTER than SCRITH is possible?

<tonid> zem: we know little of tnuctipun - possibly their specs were similar to human concerning breathable air etc...

<zem> is shadow square wire related to scrith, i wonder

<Gordon> With shadowsquare wire you could build an orbital tower

<krenon> And virtually indestructible. Great cookware :-)

<Redflame> "You know it's a one leg flight, Carol?" flight to LA from AU? Drive on scrith bridge?

<zem> tonid: true - hadn't thought of that

<zem> gordon: that was my first thought too :)

<Akatsukam> Hull metal is probably better payoff per gram than scrith.

<Nesssus> Next subject: Inspiration - where does Larry get his ideas (for example - the stepping disks)....

<Redflame> cookware! Don't' have to clan it, the food just slides off!

<krenon> The normal plane flight Sydney to LA.

<Gordon> Ideas are easy - it's what he does with them

<Akatsukam> Schenectady? :)

<Leviathan> P.O. Box in Schenechtedy.

<tonid> zem: possibly the RW was built by tnuctipun and before they got to using it the 'everyone kill themselves!' signal was received and then the Pak took it over for their needs?...

<HarryRedd> I know where he got a couple of his ideas... I helped. /:-)

<Leviathan> Akatsukam wins!

<mikeash> tonid, trouble with that idea is that it would be without inhabitants for a billion or two years, and its automation would have to be pretty good to keep working that long

<tonid> zem: but then again if tnuctipun built it it'd have to be either before thrint took control - if they were under thrint control they'd not be allowed to do that unless thrint had a purpose in that, and thrint would not really have any purpose in building RW...

<HarryRedd> Re SCRITH bridge. Slightly roughen the surface...

<Nesssus> what did you help him with Harry?

<zem> how do you roughen scrith?

<Treehugge> Ideas: Paying attention + imagination.

<tonid> mikeash: true - the time difference between the die-out of tnuctipun and beginning of Pak is huge...

<Nesssus> pour concrete over it

<krenon> If you can fabricate it you can roughen it, I suppose.

<vxpmrz3> zern: Possibly in the manufacturing process.

<Redflame> you roughen scrith the same way you work with it!

<zem> true (:

<Leviathan> You extrude it in corrugated form.

<HarryRedd> 2 stage RamJets, weaponry, Detection of incoming PAK and you can ask FITHP for more if you wish.

<zem> concrete would prolly slip off, though

<tonid> so by elimination only the Pak could build it IMHO...

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Tosh!

<tonid> or possibly it was a hidden... puppeteer project???...

<Tosh> Hi - got a bit lost there

<Gordon> Welcome back, Tosh

<HarryRedd> WB TOSH.

<mikeash> Ringworld's too old for puppeteers, I think

<Redflame> Scrith bridge: maybe there is some way to make it seem like it is down hill all the way.... maybe with such little resistance, you would get such astronomical gas mileage that lack of gas stations wouldn't be a problem.

<Gordon> not old enough for the tnuctipun though

<vxpmrz3> Could be option 4: Somebody else.

* django just figured out how to use scrith for central heating/power generation

<tonid> I don't recall when the puppeteer race started...

<zem> some of them seemed to be scientific recasting of sf staples like the transparent force field hull and the disintegration beam

<krenon> Only if you build a straight tunnel. That might be good.

<Tosh> How much of a water government would a conservative puppeteer government be ? Aeons?

<Treehugge> I give up, Larry, where DO you get your ideas?

<vxpmrz3> Redflame: restrooms OTOH, might be another problem.

<Akatsukam> I'd say that there is too much evidence that it was built by and for Pak. Scrith is just one of those mysteries.

<Redflame> PP have been around for a couple million years. Nessus was 300 yo at the beginning of RW. I wonder how long they live?

<zem> hm - you could use scrith to line one of heinlein's ballistic tunnels

<tonid> Akatsukam: I tend to agree

<krenon> Exactly

<zem> toss a bulletship in a frictionless parabolic arch through a scrith tunnel

<fithp> I don't have a dependable source for ideas. You guys generate some: viz. the attitude jets/super thermal laser for shooting asteroids under the Ring floor.

<krenon> Parabolic? The tunnel I was thinking of was straight

<Redflame> And ideas for RINGWORLD'S CHILD!

<HarryRedd> Moving GRAVITY WAVES on the Scrith Bridge. Traffic East West on the TOPSIDE and WEAT EAST on the Bottomside. /:-)

<zem> krenon: acc. to heinlein the most efficient way was to follow the path of a thrown body under gravity

<Tosh> Do the LASF or equivalents provide good forums for idea generation?

<zem> so you just throw the ship from one node and recover the energy on the other side with em braking

<krenon> Make a great t-shirt design if nothing else

<Akatsukam> Technically it has to be hyperbolic, I think. Probably you couldn't see that with the Mk I eyeball, though.

<mikeash> zem, but if you have no friction, it doesn't matter

<Treehugge> Topic drift......God save us.

<Nesssus> Which came first, the Hyperdrive or Boosterspice. How would almost unlimited living space affect the development of immortality drugs.

<zem> mike: right - hadn't thought of that

<Treehugge> Space, shmace, nobody wants to die!

<mikeash> hyperdrive came first, but people's lifespans were massively extended before boosterspice

<django> ask me in 500 years

<Akatsukam> Probably hyperdrive was introduced first, although only by a few decades.

<tonid> Nesssus: but wasn't boosterspice discovered by humans (while hyperdrive made by Outsiders)?

<zem> yes, but would a pre-hyperdrive civilization have supported the crowding?

<Akatsukam> And "unlimited living space"? Got to get there.

<Treehugge> I heard recently that a baby born now can expect to live 130 years.

<HarryRedd> Would anyone REALLY like to live 200 years in a ship headed STL for a star outside our system? It would drive most people crazy.

<django> immortality without hyperdrive is not a problem

<Gordon> Boosterspice at the end of the 24th century, though it wasn't reliable until later

<tonid> besides boosterspice is for humans only and hyperdrive can be used by any race

<Treehugge> I want to stay HERE and live 200+ years!

<Gordon> the puppeteers developed kzinti boosterspice

<zem> plus in Ringworld I got the feeling boosterspice was a relatively recent invention

<Akatsukam> Ahem. Blergh. I believe that the KS crowding has been shown to be unlikely.

<mikeash> here's an interesting question: you have a choice between boosterspice and hyperdrive, which do you pick?

<Redflame> Immortality without hyperdrive is a problem if people want to have children.

<django> if you are immortal the <c trip to another star is just a matter of supply and logistics

<Tosh> hyperdrive - see the universe and dye young

<Redflame> boosterspice.

<fithp> Yes, the Bucknell website generated a lot of what will go into RINGWORLD'S CHILD.

<mikeash> you personally, not as a race

<HarryRedd> "Now METHSUZLA lived 900 Years." (repete) But I don't call that livin' cause no gal is givin' to some dude who's 900 Years. (From PORGY AND BESS)

<Treehugge> Personally or for the race?

<tonid> boosterspice was developed by Jinxian scientists in 2398 according to the chronology on the net

<zem> definitely hyperdrive

<Akatsukam> "Immortality" is meaningless, as (I think) James Blish pointed out.

<zem> no point living forever if I never get to see anything

<Treehugge> oh

<krenon> I hope Frank Wilson knows that

<tonid> hyperdrive was sold in 2409 according to the same source

<fithp> Boosterspice comes before hyperdrive. Longevity must be easier, and nobody stops selling or making medicine just because it's less roomy.

<HarryRedd> You need a fairly young body for Long Life to be worth anything. Say Stuck in the mid Thirties. (just out of the Hobbit TWEENS)

<Redflame> But with boosterspice, you have plenty of time to see stuff. The point of seeing stuff and doign stuff isn't' that you are going to die tomorrow, but that the moment you are living will be interesting.

<Nesssus> Immortality might actually give the Ringworld inhabitants time enough to completely explore their mammoth world

<zem> okay, so hyperdrive came about before the effects of boosterspice were felt

<tonid> hope that solves it ;)

<krenon> Thank you for the nod to JRRT

<Gordon> Louis Wu decided he wanted to live forever to make sure he could see all the wonders in the Universe

<zem> harry: but boosterspice was rejuvenation and longevity in one

<tonid> (source - Marc Carlson's Known Space chronology - on the web)

<Akatsukam> Partial and false, zem.

<mikeash> Nessus, you'd be lucky to finish your explorations before the heat-death of the universe!

<Treehugge> A longer life would be nice, but I think FTL ships would be better for humanity. Certainly they should come first so we can get people off this crowded ball.

<zem> why false?

<django> does the autodoc in throne remove the need for boosterspice?

<HarryRedd> \TRULY. Thank GOD Lucius Garner didn't have it.

<zem> also hitchhiker fans remember wowbagger :) true immortality could be a bore

<Akatsukam> Rich Mann found that boosterspice couldn't give him back all that time had taken.

<fithp> If choosing, choose boosterspice over hyperdrive. Count on the incentive to get you alternate modes of travel.

<SteveS> django: Only if you keep using it.

<HarryRedd> Tree, I'll take things in the order they come. I suspect BOOSTER SPICE is much more likely than FTL as things stand.

<Redflame> I'm betting that booster spice is cheaper than an advanced Autodoc, although I'd still like one to stay healthy.

<django> does anyone have an irrational particle accelerator, 3 elastic bands and a liquid lunch?

<Akatsukam> And, tree-of-life could certainly distinguish between a Louis Wu preserved by boosterspice, and...

* zem has the elastic bands :)

<Akatsukam> ...a Louis Wu rebuilt by the nanotech doc.

<mikeash> what's an irrational particle accelerator?

<django> SteveS: same with boosterspice - you have to keep taking it...

<Nesssus> I think this leads logically onto the next question, given that a population of boosterspice enhanced individuals are going to live a long time, how would this effect the possible future colonization of the Ringworld from an economic viewpoint?

<Treehugge> Agreed, Harry.

<Redflame> You have to keep taking boosterspice, just like you have to keep using an autodoc.

<HarryRedd> Hmmm NANITES are a whole different bag of tricks. Properly programmed they could rejuvenate cells.

<Akatsukam> Probably it has a negative effect, Nesssus. Who'd take the chance?

<zem> the trouble is that humans could fill up the Ringworld pretty fast

<django> mikeash - it's part of the accident which made wowbagger immortal in HHG2G

<Redflame> which one of us humans OWNS the RW in order to sell squatting rights? If Louis, he just got a LOT richer!

<krenon> Back up! Boosterspice DIDN'T make you younger, just kept your present age.

<tonid> zem: don't think so - Ringworld is HUGE remember - many times bigger than all of human population at the time of discovery of RW

<mikeash> django: hmm, don't remember that... oh well

<zem> krenon: then why did people take it at 45 rather than, say, 30?

<Akatsukam> Boosterspice restored some color to Rich Mann's beard, though, krenon.

<Redflame> take it at 20, 30, 40,and 50!

<Treehugge> RW is the size of 3 millions Earths, minus the oceans.....

<HarryRedd> They took it when they could afford to get it I think ZEM.

<Gordon> Django, is Wowbagger the one who went round insulting everybody in the Universe...in alphabetical order?

<tonid> zen: if humans could populate RW so quickly, same could go for the breeders that evolved on RW and it's not crowded when the team discovers it

<zem> tonid: 3 million times the population. given no birth control or fertility board, and easy travel, I'd say 500 years would fill it

<krenon> Someone had effects of aging because they couldn't afford boosterspice for a while

<django> Gordon : yup :-) what a mission

<zem> tonid: different level of civilization

<tonid> zem: but then the races that are present on RW would overpopulate it long ago

<Gordon> That was Rich Mann, krenon

<zem> and no longevity

<tonid> zem: more civilization = less copulation, less breeding :)

* zem wonders (:

<krenon> And you're saying it reduced his age when he started taking it?

<tonid> zem: longevity would not affect it that much IMHO

<Akatsukam> They die, tonid. Probably from more than just old age.

<HarryRedd> War between evolved breeder cultures and the VAMPIRES would keep the population trimmed after the fall.

<fithp> You could move a fair number of passengers to the Ringworld if you used Long Shot, modular packaging and some ferries. (ref to boosterspice and populating Ringworld.)

<zem> plus when no one died the ghouls would attack the living

<tonid> zem: notice the situation on our planet now - China is the most populated and definitely NOT the most advanced country ;)

<Gordon> Nope - kept him the same age as when he started taking it again. Capt Kidd noticed the effects

<Treehugge> How long did it take for the hominids to diverge?

<krenon> Exactly. My point

<HarryRedd> Read GRENDAL for a description of what the boredom of Living could do to a person.

<django> Treehugge : that has bugged me - timescale seems too short

<Redflame> I bet that hominids COULD diverge in as little as "half a thousand years"

<tonid> zem: remember that there was an advanced civilization before the fall of the cities

<Treehugge> maybe they mutate faster than us...or were helped to.

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, qwerty2!

<tonid> zem: and they did not overpopulate RW before puppeteers introduced the superconductor plague

<Treehugge> hi, qwerty

<zem> tonid: you're right

<Tosh> Sorry gals /guys - gotta go; flying in a few hours. Looking forward to seeing the log. Bye

<qwerty2> hi tree hug- who is Larry Niven

<zem> I wonder why, though - humanity certainly overpopulated earth

<django> ttfn tosh

<HarryRedd> ADIOS Tosh.

<Gordon> Catch you later, Tosh

<Bill1> c u Tosh

<SteveS> LN is fithp as usual. :-)

<Akatsukam> Ciao, Tosh.

<Treehugge> Nessus, re: your actual question.....why would it affect the economics?

<tonid> qwerty2: fithp

<HarryRedd> qwerty Larry Niven is a WORLD CLASS Science Fiction writer who all here admire.

<qwerty2> sorry tonid?

<tonid> qwerty2: what for? no prob ;)

<krenon> Ah. Different interpretations of the question.

<zem> tree: well, it's cheaper to move en masse to the Ringworld than to terraform other worlds

<qwerty2> oh right I'll have a look 4 Larry Niven in the library I'm a big star trek fan though

<Treehugge> yes....but living longer would not affect...wait a sec. Okay, living longer means we need that much room, if we can get it all at once.

<HarryRedd> When you consider the lack or resources on the RINGWORLD It's actually cheaper to terraform... Especially IF you have NANITES.

<Akatsukam> Umm, Treehugge, why?

<krenon> In that case start with the animation "The Slaver Weapon".

<Treehugge> Resources would have to be brought it.....not cheap, but worth it.

<tonid> zem: the question is whether advanced humans would want to move to RW instead of discovering new worlds - it's less of a challenge and RW had its problems in the future so people might not feel safe

<Nesssus> Many ideas in hard science fiction hold a common theme, often cloaked in scientific pseudo explanations like the "technobabble" in Star Trek. Larry's explanations do seem scientifically plausible most of the time, but still leave room for the magic to fall into place.

<HarryRedd> qwerty, did you ever see the ANIMATED STAR TREK shows?

<tonid> besides remember about the core explosion! What sense to populate RW if everyone would have to abandon it anyways in the future

<Treehugge> more live people, alive for longer....much crowding here on earth. Get 'em off!

* zem nods at tonid - especially if you read Asimov's 'the martian way' (one of his best) he suggests that humans *need* the challenge

<qwerty2> yes I did harry they were quite good

<zem> the Ringworld is immune to the core explosion :)

<Treehugge> RW would be irresistible to the pioneer spirit.

<Nesssus> remember that the plane of the Ringworld matched the plane of the galaxy, any future population would be protected by the scrith walls

<Akatsukam> The Neolithic Revolution kind of contradicts that idea, Tree.

* django is wondering whether to bring up stepping disks again...

<HarryRedd> Larry Niven wrote THE SOFT WEAPON and they Adapted it for the StarTrek Universe.

<zem> ks is certainly full of 'indistinguishable from magic' stuff - i love the way larry makes is seem plausible though

<qwerty2> really-wow!!

<tonid> Nessus: half of it would be immune - the side that would be face-on to the radiation flow would NOT survive and the RW rotates

<Nesssus> like the scrith

<tonid> and since it rotates part of it would be in the plane of radiation flow for some time so everyone on RW would be endangered

<qwerty2> how many books has Larry written?

<Akatsukam> Nesssus, I don't think that we can have "science" fiction without violating what we know of science...

<tonid> radiation does not flow in 100% straight lines...

<Akatsukam> ...only "engineering" fiction.

<tonid> it scatters 'sideways'

<HarryRedd> Not Immune, just resistant. Hmmmm Would the Ringworld be effected by the Core Explosion Shockwave?

<krenon> His biblio has about 200 entries.

<fithp> The Ringworld is too narrow to protect from the core explosion's radiation (as a friend pointed out.) I've got something else in mind.

<tonid> I think the shockwave would be small at such distance, but the radiation would not be

<HarryRedd> Books? About 25 I think and over 200 Short stories qwerty.

<Akatsukam> Probably very little shockwave across 30kly of near-vacuum, Harry.

<qwerty2> can I get these books from the local book shop krenon and harry

<zem> aka: but if you read doc smith, say, he throws in impossible science with very little attempt at explanation

<Treehugge> Can the scrith be made to generate a radiation shield?

<Redflame> Stepping disks are an interesting interpretation of Teleportation. I wonder if leaves falling on a disk would transport. I gather that they are adjustable.

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, AIRMAN!

<zem> modern sf can't get away with that

<fithp> I've written around 40 novels. Collections are harder to count because stories get reshuffled; try 20.

<tonid> but if humans developed the method to move the whole RW system like the puppeteer worlds the RW could be moved outside of the galaxy possibly?

<HarryRedd> LOTS of Suns putting out a lot of Matter at near light Speed AKAT. Tenuous but Velocity does count.

<django> fithp: why did stepping disks change function for throne?

<Treehugge> change how?

<tonid> if RW could be adjusted from what happened due to the impact that created fist-of-god it could be moved as well, you'd only have to move the sun...

<Akatsukam> But that's probably more a matter of writing (and reading) style, zem. Compare Tom Clancy.

<django> they went from 'open transfer booth' to 'dimensional gateway'

<qwerty2> thanks everyone I'm off to research Larry Niven on the net-bye

<django> ttfn qwerty2

<krenon> Bye.

<tonid> cu qwerty

<zem> bye qwerty

<HarryRedd> Any good book store will have several of his titles qwerty and most if his work is available at used bookstores too. RING WORLD (the discussion subject) was published 30 years ago.

<Akatsukam> Hmmm. I'll have to do a BOTEC, Harry.

<qwerty2> thanku

<zem> aka: it's not just style. readers *want* some semblance of science now

<fithp> Hindmost's stepping disk system was upgraded for THRONE: better kinetic energy transfer. Hindmost had 11 years to fiddle, after all.

<Treehugge> What's the diff, Django?

<Nesssus> How much has Larry borrowed or given to the collected world of fiction. Many new novels currently have concepts that Larry pioneered 20 years ago, can anyone name any examples.

<HarryRedd> SCRITH (due to it's density) IS a radiation shield!

<zem> the disintegrators are a nice case in point - plenty of writers used them, but very few bothered explaining how they worked

<Akatsukam> Given the recent popularity of outright fantasy, zem, I'm not sure that I agree.

<Gordon> Bubbleworlds

<HarryRedd> Size and weight sensitive Red. Like a Land Mine.

<zem> yes, but it calls itself fantasy :)

<krenon> Diskworld?

<Treehugge> Good grief, Nessus, what a question.

<Nesssus> Dimpleworld

<zem> and any suitably advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology

<krenon> And any other *****world

<Akatsukam> Shucks, the "Enormous Big Thing", Nesssus :)

<tonid> HarryRedd: scrith is a radiation shield, but if radiation falls from 'the top' it won't help...

<Redflame> Ok, so, build up high technology on the RW like on the PP plants, build a scrith "LID" on the RW, and everyone on the RW can survive the core explosion!

<Nesssus> the list created that one itself

<django> Treehugge: It was the only think in throne which jarred - an energy weapon fired at the probe passed the effects through to the cabin of the needle and to mars map

<Treehugge> I meant, can the scrith generate a shield across the tops of the walls.

<fithp> "flash crowd" (mine) has come to mean a net event in which everyone suddenly piles on a given website or theme. (I used it for teleportation.)

<Akatsukam> Perhaps, then, zem, "technobabble" is to fool rather than enlighten the readers?

<zem> spider robinson borrowed the wirehead concept, complete with terminology

<tonid> Redflame: i'd think that moving the RW out of the galaxy would take less trouble than a scrith cover - besides - the cover would stop light for a long time as well and I can't imagine humans living with no light for some time (the radiation from the core explosion would last a long time!)

<Nesssus> the internet takes over where transfer booths have yet to be invented :-) i like it

<zem> no, technobabble is the lazy way of getting in good stuff :)

<Akatsukam> ?

<Treehugge> Oh, THAT change in the disks!

<krenon> Right, and if predators ever work out how to steal from net "flash crowds" and schemes for trapping the thieves are found it will have gone even further.

<tonid> Nesssus: I'd go for a question about how many of Larry's ideas are coming true! the implant technology is close to being able to make wireheads real!

<zem> well, in 20000 years we could enclose the Ringworld in a gp #42 hull :)

<Treehugge> I lay that one at the hooves of Nessus, playing with the equipment!

<HarryRedd> Hmmm Would SHADOW SQUARED reflect Radiation?

<Redflame> Tonid, the PP live with no sunlight, and light their food planets artificially. Given a scrith cover, a level of technology at the same level would provide enough heat and light for life. But moving it would probably be easier.

<Nesssus> and organ legging is a problem in the far-east already

<tonid> I hope that picking pockets won't become legal soon ;>

<Nesssus> zem: but what if the core explosion contained particles of anti-matter :-)

<Redflame> :-) It is quite likely that we will develop technology for growing organs long before organ legging gets to be the problem described in the ARM stories!

<HarryRedd> Some rumors if it in Europe and GB also Nessus. Hmmm Irish babys for Stemcells? (SWIFT REF.)

<krenon> It couldn't

* zem grins at Nessus

<Akatsukam> The Road Less Traveled, Redflame? :)

<Treehugge> agreed, Redflame, and good thing too!

<tonid> I think that there would not be enough antimatter due to core explosion to cause problems :)

<HarryRedd> They self annihilate reacting with + Matter Nessus. LONG before they got to the RINGWORLD.

* tonid nods at HarryRedd

<HarryRedd> I'm having trouble with my hands this afternoon.

<tonid> so maybe instead of the scrith cover use a GP hull cover?

<tonid> ;)

<tonid> that'd not stop sunlight ;)

<Gordon> Are they in love with each other, Harry?

<Nesssus> Ok the question that everyone has been snapping at the bit to play with - Oz vs Ringworld I think we've established most of the main characters now but who is the Wizard?

<Treehugge> In love with each other, harry? :)~

<django> TEELA'S LUCK!!!!

<tonid> but then again if the GP is one big molecule I can't imagine building a big enough GP cover to cover the whole RW...

<vxpmrz3> HarryRedd: Try stretching exercises, works for me.

<HarryRedd> I'd rather have SCRITH. GP HULLS are ONE GIGANTIC MOLECULE.

<Treehugge> Tang, beat me to it, Gordon!

<Akatsukam> Well, it was originally going to be W. C. Fields...:)

<krenon> Teela's luck = author manipulation

<vxpmrz3> Nessus: Who's the good witch? Or Toto?

<Gordon> Faster typist, Tree!

<tonid> Nesssus: hehe possibly the Pak? ;)

<HarryRedd> Lethal Attraction TREE. /:-)

<Gordon> The Wizard = Prill

<zem> the control center? that was what they were going to find, after all

<Treehugge> Yah, Teela's luck, or the Hindmost.

<SteveS> Prill as good witch?

<Redflame> If we make Teela's genes immortal, then radiation WON'T hurt the people on the RW. SOMEONE will com up with a way to save the RW from the core explosion.

<tonid> HarryRedd: I see we came to the same conclusion concerning GP ;)

<zem> or prill, if you stick to Ringworld alone

<HarryRedd> Nerve damage vzpmrz3

<vxpmrz3> Couldn't find any candidates for Ozma or Tik-tok

<Nesssus> Prill - bad witch until tamed by Nessus's tasp, then good witch

<tonid> Teela's genes are not THAT lucky, remember, she dies ;)

<Akatsukam> And, if Ringworld is Oz, how do we associate it with fin de siecle U.S. Populist politics?

<HarryRedd> Nerve damage vmpxrz3

<zem> red: if Teela's genes are immortal, space would develop a spontaneous fault that routed particles around the Ringworld :")

<vxpmrz3> HarryRedd: That's why I started the stretching exercises, or more precisely, to avoid it.

<krenon> But by then she has either reproduced or she can't.

<HarryRedd> Truly TONID.

<django> zem: it's a spatial anomaly, captain

<Gordon> Well, it's been fun, but I'll have to be going...

<django> ttfn gordon

<tonid> I've gotta go soon as well :(...

<Akatsukam> Ciao, Gordon.

<zem> bye gordon (:

<SteveS> bye gordon

<django> ttfn tonid

<Bill1> c u gordon

<tonid> cu gordon

<Redflame> But if she had already reproduced, her genes were though with her.

<Gordon> See you on the list...

<Nesssus> what character would seeker be

<Nesssus> bye gordon

<zem> of course, they could just reverse the polarity of the neutron flow (:

<Treehugge> Bye gordon

<Akatsukam> Actually, I don't buy Oz == Ringworld. Teela never got back to Kansas.

<django> ringworld child = teela offspring???

<Redflame> yup

<Nesssus> who'd want to go back to Kansas when they've got the Ringworld to explore

<krenon> But you might say that about Oz

<zem> Louis was Dorothy, not teela

<Redflame> "There's no place like home."

<vxpmrz3> Teela wouldn't be Dorothy then.

<django> Akatsukam: Louis got back to Kansas - only to find it wasn't there anymore

<SteveS> If Louis is Dorothy, then Dorothy did get back.

<zem> and he went back to earth

<Akatsukam> But, after all, Nesssus, "There's No Place Like Home".

<tonid> let's bring grogs to RW ;))

<django> there was a map of down

<HarryRedd> BRB

<Treehugge> I don't like RW as Oz either. RW is better. How'd Oz get away with that "and then the little girl woke up" thing?

<zem> yeah, that was annoying

<django> which kzinti ships vanish around

<vxpmrz3> Treehugger: Read the rest of the stories.

<Akatsukam> But Speaker/Chmeee went back to Kzin, and Nessus to the puppeteer world. There's a lot of divergence here.

<Redflame> Hello and welcome Rasputin1

<Bill1> hi

<Rasputin1> ok

<django> lo

<zem> thanks :)

<tonid> BTW I was wondering how did the human and kzinti ships get to RW fast enough in Throne?...

<Treehugge> I put Teela as the tin man, Speaker as Dorothy, Louis as the scarecrow, and Nessus as the lion.

<tonid> did they get the quantum2 hyperdrive technology?

<zem> tonid: they got given the q2h in ringworld

<HarryRedd> OOPS, Spotted another flaw... The side of the RW facing the core explosion would be mostly shielded, but the opposite side would be vulnerable to over wall Scatter. Not good!

<SteveS> They had 20 years of research into Quantum 2 hyperdrive.

<tonid> zem: oh, right...

<Rasputin1> how's it going

<tonid> HarryRedd: I spotted that about 20 minutes ago ;)

<Treehugge> Actually, V, I did, long ago....always meant to read them again. They added some neat depth to the first story.

<tonid> HarryRedd: you missed what I said ;)

<Treehugge> I'll add them to my list!

<HarryRedd> Yeah, I'm a bit busy here.

<vxpmrz3> Harryredd: Maybe the builders planned to angle the rim-scoops to create a "particle" shield.

<tonid> HarryRedd: we were thinking of making a scrith or GP cover to manage that...

<zem> why speaker as Dorothy and Louis as the scarecrow?

<krenon> Larry has not responded for 15 minutes. Is he OK?

<vxpmrz3> Treehugger: If you can't find printed copies easily, Project Guternberg has them on line.

* zem thinks the bit with Louis urging speaker not to tell the kzinti about starseed lures pretty much points to speaker as scarecrow

<djangoAFK> brb

<Treehugge> Cool...thanks, V.

<HarryRedd> I'd go for Magnetic Fields rather than material ones. Overall, you could shield the entire RINGWORLD much faster that way. /:-)

<tonid> HarryRedd: but would magnetic shields help divert radiation?

<vxpmrz3> Harryredd: Well, I figured that'd be part of the rim-scoops function..

<Redflame> Larry got busy, and is getting ready to leave.

<Treehugge> My point exactly, Harry. Thus my thought on having the scrith generate a cover shield.

<HarryRedd> As far as I know, ALL radiation is Magnetically effected.

<tonid> how about making a stasis field large enough to cover the whole RW for the time when the radiation flows???

<Nesssus> A fellow list member, Edison was here earlier and couldn't stay for the chat he had the following question for Larry:

<Nesssus> Edison asked:

<Nesssus> Your readers have noticed a shift in your writing style; in the focus of the stories, the characters, the themes and plots. Have *you* noticed that change? And what do you think of it?

<tonid> HarryRedd: I'm not a physicist thus I didn't know that

<HarryRedd> Also A MAGNETIC Shield would not have to be disassembled after you no longer have use for it. /:-)

<vxpmrz3> tonid: We don't know if a stasis field could be that large.

<zem> "I'm a doctor, Jim, not a physicist"

<tonid> vxpmrz3: true

<vxpmrz3> HarryRedd: The components used to generate it are another matter.

<fithp> Sure my style has changed. I've been learning.

<Treehugge> Excellent idea, tonid.

<HarryRedd> You already have some of the components in place. The Hex MAGNETIC Structures in the RING FLOOR.

<django> beans on toast - food of the gods :-)

<fithp> Still, there's a mousetrap for a long term writer. He sees more complexities with practice. It can all start looking like you're writing about United Nations diplomacy if you're not careful.

<krenon> followed by fart of the gods?

<tonid> if the stasis field could be that large that' be the perfect solution - no disassembly necessary and no problems with lighting the world...

<django> krenon - the gods speak in mysterious ways ;-)

<Nesssus> Trust you Ted

<Nesssus> :-)

<Akatsukam> Fava beans, django?

<HarryRedd> With little crunchy bits of bacon Django?

<Treehugge> Larry, do you ever look at your early work and wish you'd done it different?

<vxpmrz3> HarryRedd: I agree, they could be used, along with the rimscoops and maybe something else to weather the core wave.

<tonid> only who'd turn it off at the right time?... it'd have to be time-controlled...

<zem> how does the ship's stasis field turn off?

<django> akatsukam : ff ff f ffff f f

<tonid> perhaps bandersnatchi could be employed to turn it off - they're immune to radiation arent' they?

<HarryRedd> SENSOR Controlled tonid.

<tonid> zem: true

<zem> no, just to mutation

<django> Harryredd - sadly not

<krenon> Like not referring to Emil Horne in Grendel as "Jilson" on two occasions?

<Redflame> Larry, do you think your audience has changed over the years?

<tonid> would strong radiation kill bandersnatchi?

<vxpmrz3> tonid: No, they just don't get mutated. Blast one with enough rads and I'm sure they'll melt..

<fithp> Some of my early work, I would like to improve. In particularly, upgrade and update INFERNO.

<Treehugge> Yeah!!

<Redflame> We'd all read an updated INFERNO!

<SteveS> Yup, plenty of sinning in the last couple of decades to get caught up on. :-)

<django> loved inferno

<Treehugge> Lots of ground still to cover there......

<fithp> Has my audience changed over the years? How would I know? They're talking to me now, but they didn't much then.

<HarryRedd> Hmmm Radiation is Inverse Cube as to field strength is it not? How much would actually be getting to the Ringworld?

<Redflame> Who do you most want to see in hell, Larry?

<django> LOL@Red

<Bill1> LOL

<vxpmrz3> Redflame: From heaven, up above, right?

<Treehugge> Sure they did....sent you ll manner of tech studies on RW.

<Treehugge> all manner

<Treehugge> oops

<HarryRedd> Who would you like to see OUT OF HELL Larry?

<Nesssus> Larry, if you had had access to your fans and their feed in this way from the start of your career would your literary career have been any different?

<django> on a side note it appears that on page 33 of Ringworld Larry predicted ambient techno

<fithp> Who to see in Hell? Mmm. George Bush and Lyndon Johnson for sure.

<Redflame> I've heard that the other two books in Dante's trilogy were not really worth reading, compared to INFERNO, and that reader was suggesting that you and Pournelle please never do a tribute to the other two books.

<Nesssus> feed=feedback

<Redflame> Is that George W.? :-) To some accounts, they are both already IN hell, here in Houston!

<Treehugge> Larry, what's YOUR favorite piece of writing in RW? What part were you most satisfied with?

<HarryRedd> Nessus, the answer to that question is obvious... He had Feedback at the LASFS and more f5rom conventions as his popularity grew. He COULDN't have this kind of feedback at the time.

<Treehugge> And now here we are....cool, eh?

<HarryRedd> Hmmm, JFK in HELL?

<Treehugge> What an amazing time to live in!

<fithp> Out of Hell: good question. Reagan with his mind returned. Stephen Hawking's wife...if you need to call on a saint who's not too busy because no one knows of her.

<HarryRedd> Truly Tree, and with luck, it will get better.

<tonid> ambient techno? I'd rather say Larry must have been listening to early Tangerine Dream at the time ;)))

<fithp> I've had some feedback, minor, through out my career. More feedback would have been used, and some stories would have changed.

<Redflame> What Do you have against Lyndon Johnson? George Bush I understand, after all, he wasn't Reagan.

<vxpmrz3> HarryRedd: Not luck. Work.

<HarryRedd> Agreed Larry, How about H. Beam Piper?

<Treehugge> Can you picture Harlan Ellison in the Inferno?

<HarryRedd> I have MUCH against LYNDON Red. Ask me about it in WONDERLAND sometime.

<HarryRedd> Yeah Work, but it takes LUCK too.

<Redflame> I recently saw the SFI-FI FILES episode in which Larry is interviewed. They seem confused as to which came first, JP LN and the citizen's Advisory Board? Or Reagan's idea of SDI?

<fithp> JFK in Hell: sure. Carpenter might be able to get him out.

<Akatsukam> Satan asks for refugee status two weeks later, Tree? :)

<HarryRedd> Easly Tree. I KNow him! /:-)

<vxpmrz3> HarryRedd: You make your own luck, IMHO.

<fithp> I can picture Harlan Ellison REFORMING the Inferno.

<HarryRedd> LOL!'

<Treehugge> The people in Harlan's section complain about cryel & unusual punishment...!

<Treehugge> cruel

<zem> LOL - just what i was thinlking

<SteveS> <chuckle>

<HarryRedd> Not always vxp. sometimes a random factor intrudes.

<Redflame> And some of them are there because they LIKE the punishment!

<Treehugge> I've met him, Harry.....once was enough!

<fithp> SDI was drafted at my house. Honest.

<Treehugge> Well, maybe I caught him on a bad day.

<Nesssus> Hello and welcome, Jhim!

<HarryRedd> I actually LIKE Harlen... In small doses. ( no pun intended.)

<Redflame> The SCI FI FILES suggested that Reagan ASKED for the advice of SF writers, rahte rhtan the SF writers volunteering the advice.

<vxpmrz3> HarryRedd: And if you work at it, you can deal with them.

<zem> lol

<zem> harry: so you think the rest of us are giving him short shrift?

<Jhim> zijn er hier ook interessante mensen???

* Akatsukam winces at zem's remark

<zem> ook?

<vxpmrz3> Dutch, I guess.

<HarryRedd> SOme are zem. Ther's actually more to Harlen than many people give him credit for.

<Redflame> We speak English here, until Larry teaches us interworld.

<fithp> It's time I quit. Thank you all, it's been most enjoyable. Jeez you input fast. Larry Niven

<Treehugge> Larry, any more Draco story ideas around?

<Redflame> bye Larry!

<zem> bye larry (:

<Nesssus> Thank you for coming

<SteveS> 'Bye, Larry!

<tonid> do jasnej ciasnej ludzie mowcie w jakims ludzkim jezyku bo zrozumiec sie nie da ;)))

<krenon> Where's my Babel Fish??

<mikeash> bye!

<tonid> bye larry! :)))

<Nesssus> bye Larry

<Bill1> bye and thanks Larry

<django> c ya larry

<HarryRedd> ADIOS Larry, See you at LOSCON.

*** fithp has left #KNOWNSPACE

<Treehugge> Bye, Larry. Write on!

<vxpmrz3> fithp: IRC can be like that sometimes.

<Nesssus> bbl

<Treehugge Krenon>, was that your fish...? I think I ate it.

<vxpmrz3> Hope to see you again....whups, too late.

<tonid> well. ladies and gentlemen, it's time for me to leave as well... it's been incredible, thanx for the chat :)))

<zem> bye tonid

<HarryRedd> I think I used it as bait.

<Treehugge> very cool.

<Bill1> yep i'm goung to see ya peeps

<Redflame> Now that we can go off topic: What is all this "AFK" stuff, django, edison, and Katsu?

<django> ttfn tonid - hope you enjoyed it ;-)

<HarryRedd> Come back next month tonid and enjoy the LIST

<Akatsukam> afk == away from keyboard

<krenon> <gulp>

<django> AFK= away fromkeyboard

<Leviathan> "Away From Keyboard."

<Redflame> Ah, thanks.

<Treehugge> ooooh

<Redflame> How do you change your nick?

<django> ./nick

<Vash2> type /nick

<vxpmrz3> Redflame: /nick <newnickhere>

<django> without the .

<Akatsukam> "/nick {new nickname}"

<HarryRedd> I have to go too. Much to do this afternoon.

<zem> bye harry

<Leviathan> You need the "." first? For me it's just /nick

<django> type ./help without the . to get a list of commands

<Treehugge> see you on the list, Harry!

<Vash2> well how did it go for everyone?

<django> I put the . in so I didn't nick myself

<HarryRedd> ADIOS all. (GONE)

<Treehugge> lol

<Leviathan> I always use quotes.

<Akatsukam> Very well, I think.

<Treehugge> Good for me, thanks. :)

<vxpmrz3> Not bad, could have been here earlier.

<Leviathan> I'll definitely want to see a transcript. I had to AFK to make my wife dinner.

<django> hmm

<krenon> Yes. Of course you would get more response from Larry if it were moderated, but then he may prefer not to have to do so much work.

<Vash> levi - its nice to know that a man can find his way to the kitchen

* zem thinks it'd have been less fun moderated

<Treehugge> yeah

<Redflame> Definitely.

<Leviathan> Yeah, I can boil water and stir pasta with the best of 'em. And you should see me open a can!!!&!

* django thinks there was enough conflict over gun control without touching freedom of speech ;-)

<Redflame> And Larry could leave for a minute or ten without disrupting the flow.

* mikeash actually cooks stuff ;)

<Treehugge> I would have liked to see a tad more adherence to the questions, and a bit more response from LN to our questions.

<zem> never answered the one question i'd wanted to ask, though - i'll prolly repeat it on the list

<Akatsukam> Moderation would have largely eliminated the second- and third-level comments.

<Redflame> what was that?

<vxpmrz3> Less fun maybe, but perhaps more of something else.

<krenon> You can open a can with STYLE, Jon?

<Vash> I think we had just the right number on the channel

<zem> whether he invented the word 'wayspirit' in throne

<zem> seems like an obvious word to use but I've not seen it anywhere else

<mikeash> I opened a can with style a week ago

<mikeash> cut myself on it...

<Redflame> You can get more of something else on other people's chats with Larry, like space.com if they ever get their act together.

<mikeash> knocked it over in surprise, then cut myself very badly a second time catching it

<Vash> any more would have made the conversation difficult to follow, any less and Larry might have wondered why he'd bothered

<zem> next time try opening it with an opener :)

<mikeash> THAT's style

<krenon> So 20 is about right?

<Redflame> Wayspirit.... dont' know if he made it up. Maybe he doesn't even know if he made it up.

<Vash> and EVERYONE behaved themselves

<zem> nice word either way :)

<Treehugge> of course we did... :)~

<Vash> it was up to 22 at one point

<krenon> Hm ... I think you can actually limit the number, can't you?

<Redflame> Just what I expected.

<Vash> yes you can

<django> cannot find any reference to wayspirit on the net other than a short form of 'way of the spirit'

<zem> you can

<Treehugge> How many are on the list, in total?

<Vash> over 200

<Treehugge> yipe

<Treehugge> thank God they don't all participate!!

<krenon> Might be an idea to stop at, say, 25. Then you could spread the word about the chat a bit wider without serious risk of too big a crowd.

<krenon> FIBD would be the rule

<Akatsukam> I think that others have invented words thinking, "Gee, this is so obvious, someone must have already thought of it".

<vxpmrz3> BTW, before I forget, does anyone here have any interest in the new Lord Kalven book by John Carr?

<Treehugge> I would say stop at 35.

<Vash> all well and good, but if a key player suffered a connection loss, they would not be able to rejoin

<Vash> we wouldn't want that happening to Larry

<Akatsukam> For sure, vxmprz.

<vxpmrz3> Treehugger: I suspect many of the addresses are black holes now.

<Treehugge> good point

<Treehugge> yeah, probably, V.

<vxpmrz3> Akatsukam: Does that mean you have already ordered it, or want the information?

<krenon> But as owner couldn't you get anyone back on as needed?

<Vash> not if you were up to the limit

<Akatsukam> I would like the information, please.

<vxpmrz3> Ok, let me copy and paste /msg it to you...

<krenon> OK. You ordain the limit then kick off the excess yourself.

<Vash> no - the rest just can't join the channel

<Redflame> I suspect that we will know if these chats are getting too big, slowly. 100 people are not going to drop everything and come because Larry is going to be here, if they didn't drop everything, like I did, for the first one.

<Akatsukam> Thanx, vxpmrz <takes care to spell it right this time>.

<Treehugge> I'd hate to get here 10 mins late and be left out...

<krenon> You don't actually set a limit but kick anyone who joins after it's reached, unless someone drops off for good.

<Redflame> Several of us got here and hour early!

<Vash> Ted, do you know how many are on the list

<krenon> I don't know exactly how it would work but any artificial means to limit the number without limiting the spread of info about the chat might be worth thinking about.

<Akatsukam> I think that some notice as to why should be given then, krenon.

<krenon> About 210]

<krenon> 210

<Treehugge> I was lucky to get here when I did, but would gladly have been that early if possible. Next time, maybe.

<Leviathan> I just happened to be near my computer and remembered.

<krenon> Tie a string around your finger next time Jon

<Vash> what we could do is moderate the channel, but give all the list members a voice (+) so that they can carry on talking. Anyone coming in from outside, would be able to listen, but not participate if they weren't a member of the list

<vxpmrz3> I was playing Dungeon Keeper 2 myself

<krenon> THAT's better!

<Vash> the only downside to that is that its difficult to know from a nick who's a listmember and who's not

<Redflame> That isn't a bad idea.

<django> I didn't think I'd get here at all - ISP chose this weekend for IP renumbering and moving to DHCP - spent a few panicked hours with no net :-(

<krenon> Insist by a notice on the list that they use only known nicks.

<Redflame> "Tell us your name and eddress, and I'll compare it to the list of recipients I just got from the computer."

<Vash> we could co-ordinate it before hand by everyone telling the moderator in advance - via the list perhaps who they were going to me

<krenon> Yes.

<krenon> Any way that works is fine by me.

<Redflame> But we are far from that crazy now. Far from it.

<krenon> But on this occasion no news was disseminated beyond the list.

<Leviathan> Well, fare thee well, folks. Time to pretend I have a life.

<Redflame> bye!

<zem> bye (:

<django> ttfn Leviathan

<SteveS> Bye, Leviathan!

<krenon> Bye JAS

<Vash> no I thought tonight would be a lot more panicked than it was. I'm sure I missed a few comments, but I absorbed most of what was going on - how about you?

<Redflame> That is not true, Ted, yesterday a notice was put on the KS Site

<django> I get the feeling I've missed a few lines here and there - I look forward to the transcript

* Redflame thinks Nesssus and Krenon worry too much.

<krenon> Only a day before, though. And I don't think that page was linked to the home page.

<Vash> by me <g> but I don't think the news spread any further than the list

<Redflame> O the front page, there was a notice.

<Vash> it was - I changed the news header

<zem> got a fraction chaotic today :) but fun still

<Vash> the real way to get the traffic in is to post on the newsgroup with plenty of notice

<vxpmrz3> No splits either.

<krenon> I have to admit that Vash can fly this ship well. She can probably get us out of any trouble caused by overcrowding.

<Redflame> alt.books.larry-niven?

<Vash> and to the rec.arts.sf.science one as well. Lots of Niven fans lurk there

<Vash> yes

<Redflame> There is a new discussion group on egroups, called Niven

<krenon> If it's posted to rasfw, expect hordes!

<Vash> Ship??? Well it hasn't got a GP hull if that's what you mean

<django> but can we move to a RingIRC when the traffic gets too high <cringe>

<Vash> that egroup list is quiet

<Redflame> Yes.

<Treehugge> Folks, I have to go. This has been a treat. See you on the list!

<Vash> bye treehug

<krenon> No but, as Bey said of Larch Bellamy, you "move the ship around like an extension of your body". Compliment, I assure you.

<SteveS> 'See ya, Treehugger!

<django> ttfn treehugge

<Vash> thank you - I think

<krenon> I didn't tell you it's Carol's birthday next Thursday but if you wish her a happy boirthday she might like it.

<Vash> well, its getting late here so I'm off. I'll cobble together a log and mail it to the list.

<Vash> Happy Bday Carol

<krenon> Bummer. That was meant to go to Vash

<vxpmrz3> c-yah Vash.

<krenon> I blew it.

<SteveS> Bye, Nesssus!

<Redflame> TY, Vash!

<django> ttfn nesssus

<Redflame> bye

<zem> nice to know nonetheless (:

<Vash> no - I blew it by typing feed instead of feedback in a question to Larry

<krenon> Ah. She left while I was typing it

<krenon> Uh!

<Redflame> :-), zem

<Vash> good night all

Log Continued from Carol Phillips & Steve Sloans log files

[17:29] <krenon> 'night Vash.

[17:29] <vxpmrz3> Man, 3 birds today. Kinda worrisome.

[17:29] <krenon> Gone - like a pricked soap bubble

[17:29] <django> happy birthday, carol

[17:29] <Redflame> ty django. I'm going to be TWICE Teela's age, and a fifth of Loius Wu's!

[17:30] <Akatsukam> "3 birds"? What, coming down the chimney?

[17:30] <krenon> Hm - maybe I didn't get enough sleep

[17:30] <vxpmrz3> Brought in by feline friends.

[17:30] <Redflame> vxp, 3 birds? Maybe you don't feed the cats enough.

[17:31] <krenon> And you're the third woman I know who's turning that age this year.

[17:31] <vxpmrz3> Nah, cats will catch things even if they're not hungry. They are born predators afterall.

[17:31] <django> redflame - you're only as old as you feel (which is good some days, but not others)

[17:31] <Akatsukam> Actually, I saw a patent the other day for a combination sparrow trap/cat feeder.

[17:31] <krenon> Which is 17 years below mine. Dunno what that proves.

[17:31] <django> lol @ vx

[17:31] <Redflame> I understand that cats naturally hunt, but they have to be taught to eat their kill.

[17:31] <vxpmrz3> Just more than they usually manage. Better than rats, rabbits or snakes though.

[17:32] <django> my sister in law has a cat which is un believable - brings DOZENS of presents...

[17:32] <vxpmrz3> Redflame: Yes, I believe that is the case. Only one of mine eats his prey regularly. The others tend to just play.

[17:32] <Akatsukam> Dunno about that, Redflame. My cat was abandoned, but she hunted (not very well) and ate what she caught.

[17:33] <Redflame> play cat and bird? I had a cat that was neutered and declawed as a little kit, and still climbed into trees with his little toes digging into the bark, ate bluejay babies, then after the parents later when they would complain about it. Starvation can certainly teach an old cat new tricks, Akatsu.

[17:34] <vxpmrz3> Perhaps its mother did show it the basics.

[17:34] <django> i gotta dash folks - leafs first game of the season tonight :-)

[17:35] <krenon> I'm about to go. Thanks, guys. Good chat.

[17:35] <Akatsukam> Could be. She was seriously underweight when we found her, so she may have had the basic idea, but none of the refinements.

[17:35] <Redflame> what season?

[17:35] <SteveS> 'Bye, django, Ted!

[17:35] <vxpmrz3> Hockey season, I think.

[17:35] <Akatsukam> Dropping like flies :)

[17:36] <Redflame> Having Larry here wore us all out, I guess!

[17:36] <Akatsukam> I think that I, also, shall go; dinner is getting near ready.

[17:36] <vxpmrz3> Or fleeing like rats from a sinking ship.

[17:36] <Redflame> :-) bye akatsu

[17:37] <vxpmrz3> see-ya...shoot, too late again.

[17:37] <Redflame> Steve, how you feeling?

[17:38] <SteveS> A lot better than I did. It'll be a while before I'm completely recovered, though.

[17:39] <Redflame> it is great that your parents can be there for you. You on their computer, or you brought yours? I'd die having to live with my mother for SEVERAL weeks!

[17:39] <SteveS> I brought my older backup computer -- the one I replaced when I got my Athlon months ago.

[17:44] <Redflame> Well, I'm tired of sitting here, and I guess I'll go pretend that I have a life.

[17:44] <SteveS> <chuckle> Bye, Carol!

[17:44] <zem> bye :)

[17:45] <vxpmrz3> Adios. I'm just looking for Escaflowne music myself, or I'd say something more.

[17:45] <SteveS> From the anime show?

[17:45] <Redflame> bye! Zem if you are going to stay here to the bitter end, email nesssus the last few minutes starting with me leaving.

[17:45] <zem> no, i'm off too (:

[17:46] <vxpmrz3> SteveS: Yes, it's been pretty good, though FK has changed the dialouge. Not the Captioning tho.

[17:47] <Redflame> Ok, last person to leave email the last few minutes to Nesssus.

[17:47] <SteveS> What I've seen of it so far has been pretty interesting.

*** Redflame has quit IRC (See you later! Gotta go do mommy things.)